S01.E01: Breaking the Silence: the TLC Abuse Special

[JenCarroll]

I just can't get over Michelle - what the hell was she doing there? And her statement was so strange. "I'm so glad we were able to do this together as a mother and daughters and gain more information about this important topic..." (or something like that). She could have been at a dental hygiene awareness seminar, and said exactly the same thing. There was no context and no content to her comment. Also she's creeping me out more than ever with the baby girl whisper voice and the staring, vacant eyes.

[leighdear]

A brief but concise article on the clean-up efforts of Michelle, Jill & Jessa...

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2015/08/31/the_duggar_family_pops_up_in_a_tlc_sex_abuse_documentary.html

[kokapetl]

I wish people would stop conflating the Duggars into one single entity. There's been a consistent theme amongst critics of Jill and Jessa to conflate them with their parents' stupidity, and even Josh's illegal behaviour. It's below the belt and unfair. And yes the Duggars are assholes and hypocrites who would do the same thing, but if you aren't holding yourself to a higher standard of discourse, you're really on the same level as them.

People have a right not to believe Jill and Jessa. I don't. Circumstances do not add up, are not credible and as NC said, their beliefs and the way they have raised their children is sick and twisted. It's been an emotional and physical sledge hammer for their children.

You are literally suggesting Jill and Jessa are sick and twisted. Why?

[Churchhoney]

Is it common to name laws after yourself?  I can only recall laws that were named after people, mostly children, who died because there either wasn't a law to protect people in certain situations, or existing laws were too weak to make a difference.

 

I don't think it's common at all. I can't think of a law named after a person -- except ones that are called by the names of their actual legislative sponsors, although that isn't usually the law's official name --that wasn't named by some other people. It's kind of like a president or governor naming a bunch of public buildings after him/herself. Nobody would do that. It seems off to me. I think you'd feel stupid doing it. .... Unless you were pretty egocentric ... Could there be another reason? I dunno.

I read an article that she came to the Duggar house to do a lesson on touching etc. 

 

Before the Josh incidents were revealed. And at which time they did not mention to her that they had ever had any problems with bad touch in their family.

 

More Duggar honesty and straightforwardness.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Churchhoney

[graefin]

I just can't get over Michelle - what the hell was she doing there? And her statement was so strange. "I'm so glad we were able to do this together as a mother and daughters and gain more information about this important topic..." (or something like that). She could have been at a dental hygiene awareness seminar, and said exactly the same thing. There was no context and no content to her comment. Also she's creeping me out more than ever with the baby girl whisper voice and the staring, vacant eyes.

I think she was there, simply, to make sure Jill and Jessa continued to tow the party line. There is no such thing as true independence for these kids even once they are married. And it's been clear there is something very wrong with Michelle affect-wise for some time now. I just don't think she is capable of feeling emotion the way others do (which is a defining trait of narcissistic personality disorder, but whether that's all that's going on here or there's something more, I don't know). There's a recent photo of her holding Izzy's hands while he is hanging from Jill's sling, and even though the photo is interactive, the vibe it gives off is robotic and vacant.

[leighdear]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around why the inclusion of the Duggars at all.  The foundation of the bill is to get the information into the hands of public school officials, licensed daycare and others dealing with children, right?  So they can be aware of signs, symptoms, etc. and know how & when to take action.

 

The Duggars don't do public school. Or private school. Or licensed daycare.  They already had the "bad touch" lecture from Erin personally, in their own home.  Why would they have anything even remotely to do with this program?  

 

Are Michelle, Jill & Jessa going to go out into their local community to talk openly about sexual abuse and this bill?  I just don't see it.  I thought those training sessions were for advocates interested in helping to educate their communities.  Though I suppose at 20+ people, the Duggars comprise a community of their own. 

[kokapetl]

I think Duggars were included so the special would have some sort of "appeal". It's an unpleasant subject, excluding potential Dateline type specials, it'll probably be the only program about sexual abuse aired in the entire year on network and basic cable.

[Julia]

I don't think it's common at all. I can't think of a law named after a person -- except ones that are called by the names of their actual legislative sponsors, although that isn't usually the law's official name --that wasn't named by some other people. It's kind of like a president or governor naming a bunch of public buildings after him/herself. Nobody would do that. It seems off to me. I think you'd feel stupid doing it. .... Unless you were pretty egocentric ... Could there be another reason? I dunno.

 

I assumed it was because people who oppose teaching children about this sort of thing at an early age are faced with the image of an actual six year old girl being raped.

[Churchhoney]

I assumed it was because people who oppose teaching children about this sort of thing at an early age are faced with the image of an actual six year old girl being raped.

 

I suppose that's it. But I still think it's just odd.

[kokapetl]

I assumed it was because people who oppose teaching children about this sort of thing at an early age are faced with the image of an actual six year old girl being raped.

Voting against a bill for something called "Erin's Law" makes a legislator appear to be anti Erin, and pro rapist. I understand why she has taken that tack. Legislators honestly need that hanging over them.

[Oldernowiser]

I wish people would stop conflating the Duggars into one single entity. There's been a consistent theme amongst critics of Jill and Jessa to conflate them with their parents' stupidity, and even Josh's illegal behaviour. It's below the belt and unfair. And yes the Duggars are assholes and hypocrites who would do the same thing, but if you aren't holding yourself to a higher standard of discourse, you're really on the same level as them. You are literally suggesting Jill and Jessa are sick and twisted. Why?

The way I read these posts doesn't equate to that conclusion. Plenty of children are raised in a sick and twisted way, yet rise above their upbringing. Do I believe Jill and Jessa are brainwashed? Yes. Are they brainwashed with sick and twisted programming? Absolutely.

But whether they ultimately choose their own path remains to be seen. I hope they find a way to take the best parts of Christianity...humbleness, compassion, and charity...and do good things. Many do.

[louannems]

I just watched the whole show. Did the Duggar's see the same show we saw? Did they here the survivers' stories and hear their heart-breaking struggles to heal and move on? Do they now understand that childhood sexual abuse is a really huge deal?? Maybe now, they will give themselves permission to remember the anger and confusion they may have felt as little girls and never delt with.

[Clemgo3165]

Their experiences, being fondled by an older brother while sleeping, are far different than some of the abuse depicted in the documentary. It's heinous what Josh did to his sisters, but if they were not traumatized by it then who are we to tell them that they need to be? Each survivor has the right to own their own truth, regardless of what that might be and regardless of what we on the outside might think about that.

 

Now that they are adults and starting their own families, they may find themselves thinking differently about what happened and being more proactive with their own children. They may also find that they need to deal more intently with what happened with Josh, but they also might find that they're OK and that there's nothing more to deal with. Again, that's up to them.

 

For me, the saddest part of it all was JB and Michelle's reaction to Josh's problem. Not getting him the counseling he really needed at the time, and then turning the house into a lockdown situation for the girls because they couldn't be trusted to be alone with their own brother. So now older, opposite sex siblings, who were friends as children have to pull away from each other, and now you can't give members of your own family full-on hugs, and even the most mundane activity requires an accountability partner. It's just very sad.

[lookeyloo]

I just watched the whole show. Did the Duggar's see the same show we saw? Did they here the survivers' stories and hear their heart-breaking struggles to heal and move on? Do they now understand that childhood sexual abuse is a really huge deal?? Maybe now, they will give themselves permission to remember the anger and confusion they may have felt as little girls and never delt with.

Do the Duggars allow this as sanctioned TV viewing? Who in their house would they allow to watch? Did they ever watch any of their own shows? Do they watch the Bates? Or is it Batses? Inquiring minds want to know!

[Satchels of gold]

For me, the saddest part of it all was JB and Michelle's reaction to Josh's problem. Not getting him the counseling he really needed at the time, and then turning the house into a lockdown situation for the girls because they couldn't be trusted to be alone with their own brother. So now older, opposite sex siblings, who were friends as children have to pull away from each other, and now you can't give members of your own family full-on hugs, and even the most mundane activity requires an accountability partner. It's just very sad.

I've mentioned this before so forgive me for repeating myself but during that Fox special JB talks about the first incident and the safeguards they put in place, then goes on about the other incidents and says "in retrospect after that first incident.....( now is the part where I am anticipating he will say " in retrospect we didn't do enough" Or "the right thing" but instead he says) we did the best we could". I was flabbergasted . They never think they are wrong. Ever. Even now , when it's clear that work camp didn't fix him the first time instead of realizing hey we were wrong they double down and do the exact same thing! It boggles the mind. It didn't work the first time and won't work the 100th time.

Edited September 1, 2015 by nc socialworker

[Absolom]

The Duggars are type one people.  There are three kinds of people in the world:  those who don't learn from their mistakes, those who learn from their mistakes, and those who learn from other people's mistakes. 

[SnarkyMcSnarkerson]

I don't care if people hated watched or tuned in because they are fans of the girls. As long as people are educated it's all good. I don't think we will ever really know how the girls feel about the molestation because I doubt they really know. They have been taught not to feel angry, forgive or be accused of being bitter and to keep sweet. Also feelings/coping tend to evolve over time. Perhaps they will start to feel angry when they can't function sexually in their marriage or when they see their own children at the age they were molested and realize just how innocent they really were. Who knows? But what I do know is that the scandal opened the eyes of the average viewer about what this cult believes. On this board people have been talking about it for years but the average viewer thought of them as the Christians with all those kids. What's not to love about a happy christian family? Well a great deal. Blanket training, misogyny, sexual repression, lack of proper education , the list goes on and on. Well the cat is out of the bag and it's over for the Duggars. The sooner they realize it the better. Its over Duggars, you had a good run, longer then you deserved . Time to go home.

The bolded part just about killed me, as I pictured my adorable, wonderful and innocent niece (close in age to my trauma) and realized just how right you are. And that I don't know if I'll ever get married and have kids because of the first part. I don't know when or if it will (or maybe it already has) hit Jill and Jessa how much Josh took from them, but my heart breaks for them having to go through it. Especially for having to go through it with only Dumb and Dumber in their corner (actually in Josh's corner, as it turned out). I may not agree with everything they've done since this came out, but I suspect they were doomed from the start with Lego-Hair and Crunchy-80s-Hair as parents.

[Satchels of gold]

The bolded part just about killed me, as I pictured my adorable, wonderful and innocent niece (close in age to my trauma) and realized just how right you are. And that I don't know if I'll ever get married and have kids because of the first part. I don't know when or if it will (or maybe it already has) hit Jill and Jessa how much Josh took from them, but my heart breaks for them having to go through it. Especially for having to go through it with only Dumb and Dumber in their corner (actually in Josh's corner, as it turned out). I may not agree with everything they've done since this came out, but I suspect they were doomed from the start with Lego-Hair and Crunchy-80s-Hair as parents.

Oh snarky your comments just broke my heart. I hope you find healing.

[duggarshow]

Because Michelle, Jessa, and Jill all went on National Television and said that abuse wasn't that big deal, nothing really happened...etc, etc. They made their own bed to lie in.

 

To be fair, that isn't what they said. I really wonder what exactly people (and I don't mean you in particular) want Jill and Jessa to do. If they don't remember, they don't remember. I grew up in an extremely physically (not sexually) abusive home. My youngest sisters don't remember most of what we went through - by the time they were 7ish years old, the abuser had moved out. They still suffered awful abuse, but I'm certainly not going to make them remember it if they don't or force them to feel a way they don't feel toward our abuser who is their father (not biologically mine). In fact, I'm kind of relieved that they don't remember.

[Aw my lahgs]

To be fair, that isn't what they said. I really wonder what exactly people (and I don't mean you in particular) want Jill and Jessa to do. If they don't remember, they don't remember. I grew up in an extremely physically (not sexually) abusive home. My youngest sisters don't remember most of what we went through - by the time they were 7ish years old, the abuser had moved out. They still suffered awful abuse, but I'm certainly not going to make them remember it if they don't or force them to feel a way they don't feel toward our abuser who is their father (not biologically mine). In fact, I'm kind of relieved that they don't remember.

Because they are lying liars who lie. Some people may not remember while others remember everything. They basically said nothing really happened and they only knew about it through Josh and their parents. They are towing Jim Bob's party line independently of their own feelings, emotions, experiences and grievances.

[kokapetl]

Because they are lying liars who lie. Some people may not remember while others remember everything. They basically said nothing really happened and they only knew about it through Josh and their parents. They are towing Jim Bob's party line independently of their own feelings, emotions, experiences and grievances.

Their story has been consistent from their police interviews in 2006 until now in 2015. There's no evidence that they are "lying liars who lie", at least not on this subject.

[Aw my lahgs]

Their story has been consistent from their police interviews in 2006 until now in 2015. There's no evidence that they are "lying liars who lie", at least not on this subject.

Sitting a young girl on a washing machine and going up her panties underneath her prairie dress is the same as a "quick, fast small pet OVER their clothes during their sleep that they didn't even notice"?

Edited September 5, 2015 by Nutella

[kokapetl]

Sitting a young girl on a washing machine and going up her panties underneath her prairie dress is the same as a "quick, fast small pet OVER their clothes during their sleep that they didn't even notice"?

The laundry room incident didn't happen to Jill or Jessa, they didn't lie.

[Sew Sumi]

Their story has been consistent from their police interviews in 2006 until now in 2015. There's no evidence that they are "lying liars who lie", at least not on this subject.

That's easy to explain. It's party line. They all had a script and espoused it on the Megyn Kelly specials. We may never know what these girls really thought.

[kokapetl]

That's easy to explain. It's party line. They all had a script and espoused it on the Megyn Kelly specials. We may never know what these girls really thought.

If it were partly line, the police interviews wouldn't have incriminated Josh.

[Julia]

JMO, we have two young women raised in an environment where their molester was protected by their parents and they were taught explicitly that God says the victims are complicit in sexual abuse, not that their brother did anything all that bad anyway.

 

Then, you keep in mind that they were raised according to child-rearing precepts - which their parents actually linked to on their website as a recommendation to others, for years - which hold that it's perfectly acceptable to beat your children if they sin by letting you  or anyone else see that they're not completely happy. You know, about stuff like being responsible for your brother being a filthy predator who your parents are protecting. And their daddy pretty much had the police department locked down anyway.

 

What Occam's razor tells me there is that those two young women were painstakingly groomed to be the complacent victims or abuse, following the precepts of an abuser's charter taught to their parents and later to them by a sexual abuser. Who, when he was caught being a sexual abuser, handed the family business of hand-training another generation of abusers and their victims over to his son, who has since lost his own job when he was caught are you getting the idea here?

 

I don't blame the two of them for having Stockholm syndrome. I think it's tragic, and that it's very likely that they wouldn't be able to shake loose all that programming without intensive therapy they'll never get. 

 

So, yeah? They may feel that way, and I'm not going to try to take that away from them, because I don't know what they have to replace it with when their carapaces crack.

 

I do, though, think it would pass over the border from misguided to complicit to suggest that sexual abuse survivor organizations should allow the men who groomed the Duggar girls and the women who helped them to offer their sick, criminal and perverted justifications for their own crimes through the Duggar girls to millions of abuse victims.

 

I wonder if it isn't even a bit disingenuous to suggest it, particularly by using the language of recovery.

[Aw my lahgs]

If it were partly line, the police interviews wouldn't have incriminated Josh.

Tw lot of time has passed from the happenings until the police interview.

Obviously Jim Bob drilled them on what to say and what not. I'm sure he went over it with them over and over again. In the gothard culture, a child pleases their father or else.

Unfortunately, we will probably never know what happened, how far it went and how often (one time per victim is just so much in stride for child molesting incest patterns).

[kokapetl]

JMO, we have two young women raised in an environment where their molester was protected by their parents and they were taught explicitly that God says the victims are complicit in sexual abuse, not that their brother did anything all that bad anyway.

Then, you keep in mind that they were raised according to child-rearing precepts - which their parents actually linked to on their website as a recommendation to others, for years - which hold that it's perfectly acceptable to beat your children if they sin by letting you or anyone else see that they're not completely happy. You know, about stuff like being responsible for your brother being a filthy predator who your parents are protecting. And their daddy pretty much had the police department locked down anyway.

JimBob was a below the poverty line white trash yokel, how could he have the police locked down? At the height of his influence, in May this year, he couldn't weild any influence over the cops to protect his family.

What Occam's razor tells me there is that those two young women were painstakingly groomed to be the complacent victims or abuse, following the precepts of an abuser's charter taught to their parents and later to them by a sexual abuser. Who, when he was caught being a sexual abuser, handed the family business of hand-training another generation of abusers and their victims over to his son, who has since lost his own job when he was caught are you getting the idea here?

I don't blame the two of them for having Stockholm syndrome. I think it's tragic, and that it's very likely that they wouldn't be able to shake loose all that programming without intensive therapy they'll never get.

So, yeah? They may feel that way, and I'm not going to try to take that away from them, because I don't know what they have to replace it with when their carapaces crack.

Evidence suggest that Josh, and Josh alone, was considered responsible for the molestations, and he alone was punished by his parents. None of the victims said anything at all along the lines of "it was partly/all my fault" in their police interviews.

I do, though, think it would pass over the border from misguided to complicit to suggest that sexual abuse survivor organizations should allow the men who groomed the Duggar girls and the women who helped them to offer their sick, criminal and perverted justifications for their own crimes through the Duggar girls to millions of abuse victims.

I wonder if it isn't even a bit disingenuous to suggest it, particularly by using the language of recovery.

I don't follow. Please indulge me and be so kind as to clarify who the complicit parties are.

Tw lot of time has passed from the happenings until the police interview.

Obviously Jim Bob drilled them on what to say and what not. I'm sure he went over it with them over and over again. In the gothard culture, a child pleases their father or else.

Unfortunately, we will probably never know what happened, how far it went and how often (one time per victim is just so much in stride for child molesting incest patterns).

If JimBob instructed his daughters to lie, he would've instructed them to deny anything ever happened. However, not only did they not deny, all the incriminating evidence that came to light and ruined the Duggar family was from the Duggar family.

[Bella]

Okay , we've been over this territory about eleventy billion times already.

People are allowed their opinions and beliefs without being pressed for proof.

So let's dial it back and agree that we all see things differently.

Deletions may follow if the mods see that as being necessary.