Magic, Enchantments, and Curses: Bibbidi Bobbidi Boo

[YaddaYadda]

I don't think you need magic to open something that is sealed with blood magic.

[InsertWordHere]

During the episode, I actually thought that Cora was going to steal some of Zelena's magic and give it to Regina, who was a squib, to Cora's disappointment. Maybe Zelena inadvertently did it while healing her and that is why Regina never showed signs of magic until later in life. 

[CheshireCat]

snarkastic, on 25 Apr 2016 - 1:26 PM, said:

Neal was able to open Rumple's secret magic cabinet and then use the magic crystal ball, is he born magical? No. So I'm sticking with no for Regina still too.

 

Since Mulan gave Neal directions on how to activate the crystal ball, or at least, gave him suggestions, I'm not sure you need to have magic to use a crystal ball. One thing that has been consistent on the show though is that you need magic to use a wand and Regina did use the wand (even though it backfired... literally)

 

 

YaddaYadda, on 25 Apr 2016 - 1:37 PM, said:

I don't think you need magic to open something that is sealed with blood magic.

 

No, probably not, but as said above, so far you have needed magic to activate a wand.

 

One way or another, I wish they would have addressed it/would address it but I guess it's clear in A&E's minds, so they're not thinking they need to.

[Rumsy4]

Didn't Robin steal a wand from Rumple and use it to heal Marian? He doesn't have magic, and was still able to wield it.

[Shanna Marie]

Cora said it was her magic that hurt Regina, and thus the need for Zelena, so I don't think Regina was actually doing anything magical with the wand. It just seemed like yet another layer of protection around the wand -- there was the lock and key on the drawer, then the blood magic on the box, and then some kind of magic on the wand itself that kept anyone else from using it.

 

It doesn't seem like blood magic is the best form of home security when you're locking things away from your family members. But these people keep using it. They probably use blood magic to secure the gun safe from their own kids, and all of Dad's Playboys are locked away using blood magic. That'll keep all the dangerous stuff out of the kids' hands!

 

Also, blood magic is very poor security if you have an evil relative or if there's even the slightest hint that you have an evil relative, or if you know you've given birth to a child that you've given away, or if there's a possibility that you have relatives you don't know about. Not to mention the fact that you don't have to give the blood willingly for it to work, which seems like an incentive for someone to hurt you. In short, a combination lock may be safer and more secure.

[Curio]

Didn't Robin steal a wand from Rumple and use it to heal Marian? He doesn't have magic, and was still able to wield it.

 

Correct.

 

And yes, blood magic is pretty useless on a show where everyone and their dog are related to each other.

[YaddaYadda]

I find it interesting how Zelena who was born with magic did not need a spell to look at to heal Regina. Meanwhile Cora had that book, and Regina inherited is the one who now has it. They don't flesh these things out enough. Even Emma when Regina was "training" her back in season 3, and especially in 3x17, she was trying to teach her spells using the book before she put her on the bridge of doom.  

[HoodlumSheep]

I was going to ask this in the episode thread. But then I thought it might be better suited for here...

If this was already discussed in depth, then sorry? I must of missed it accidently:

Are we supposed to assume that Hook's hook is just permanently enchanted at this point? Because I'd be down with that instead of trying to figure out who or what enchanted it each time. 

Like, when hades enchanted his hook, he's been able to use it multiple times. Will that go away after they leave the UW or why didn't the effect wear off when Hook carved David's name on the tombstone??? How did it work for freeing cora and emma???? Why wouldn't Hades disenchant it?

at this point I'd rather they just use the excuse that it's been enchanted so many times that it's somehow kept the magical properties. 

[Curio]

Hook's hook is enchanted when the plot calls for it, but not enchanted when the writers conveniently forget about it and introduce some other deus ex machina.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Curio

[Rumsy4]

It's possible that Regina or Emma enchanted it so Hook could help free Cora. 

[Curio]

Why can't Emma enchant his hook with unlimited magic? At least that would partially solve the non-magical-people-are-useless issue. I've been begging for the non-magical people on this show to wield magical weapons for years now. It's not that difficult of a concept!

[HoodlumSheep]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

It's possible that Regina or Emma enchanted it so Hook could help free Cora. 

But how would they have known her predicament? How would they  know that Cora had an anti-magic cuff on? Did they go, "here, just in case!" How did Hook even know where to find Cora? Did Regina use a magic mirror to locate her??

it'd be a much easier solution for them to say that his hook is permanently magic now. He wouldn't use it all the time, but it'd be there if they needed it. It wouldn't be a game changer either.

Edited April 29, 2016 by HoodlumSheep

[Shanna Marie]

Hook's been enchanted so many times, it's hard to keep track. Initially, Regina enchanted the hook to take one heart, meaning for it to be Cora, but he used it on Aurora. More recently, he claimed he still had some of the potion that allowed that, and he was going to use it on Zelena. Did he ever take a heart? When he took Merlin's heart, he was the Dark One and wouldn't have needed an enchanted hook to do it. How did he get Zelena's cuff off when she was in the cell? Was the hook also enchanted for that? (I don't remember) I don't think Hades enchanted the hook to allow him to carve the tombstones. I think it was just that any way that Hook carved one of the stones would be binding. He happened to use his hook as a convenient tool (but I hope he has tools for sharpening it after that). We don't know how/when the hook was enchanted to undo Cora's cuff (or how they knew she was there and cuffed).

If the hook were enchanted as a magical tool, that would provide a valid story reason for him to keep it even though his girlfriend probably has the power (given the other healing we've seen her do) to restore his hand, with no threat of curses on it.

[InsertWordHere]

Time travel. That's my answer and I'm sticking to it. Prior to Snow Drifts, Hook's hook could only take one heart, which he used on Aurora. He had no extra potion. However, after the experience of getting knocked out by a dashing stranger (who was wearing a black leather vest that caught his eye so much so that he had one like it made for himself because Smee would not shut up about his supposed vest change) one night when he had taken a lovely bar patron back to his ship, he was worried something similar might happen to him at a critical moment when taking Cora's heart. He told Regina he should have some backup potion just in case. Regina, who had once burned a woman at the stake and the woman somehow survived, agreed that a backup method was wise. She had also drank a lot of wine during that carriage ride, something that did not happen in the original timeline, as evidenced by their costume changes, so she was feeling a little generous.  

[Shanna Marie]

The weird thing about the enchanted hook is that this hook isn't the same one that's enchanted. That hook is somewhere in Storybrooke, probably among Hook's personal effects at the morgue.

Though that seems to be part of their overall forgetting that this isn't Hook's body. I still think it's odd that the embodiment of his soul is also missing a hand and has a hook for a replacement. That makes little sense. But the hook in the Underworld shouldn't have the same properties as the hook in the living world. Are they saying it's like the Author's pen, and it's a living being that went to the Underworld? The hook should have had to be enchanted all over again.

[Camera One]

No one is angst-ing over how Hook will manage to escape even though he's dead.  Details, details, details.

[Mari]

16 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Though that seems to be part of their overall forgetting that this isn't Hook's body. I still think it's odd that the embodiment of his soul is also missing a hand and has a hook for a replacement. 

It most likely is because they seem to have forgotten that this isn't Hook's actual body, but there is a logic to Killian Jones having a hook, even in Underbrooke.

The circumstances he got the hook were a pivotal moment in stripping away someone he loved, and reforging his identity.  The hook became more than just a physical part of him; even his commonly used name came from it.  "Killian Jones" wasn't feared.  "Hook" was.  He spent the next 80-250 (depending on the episode's writer) on a quest to get vengeance against the person who caused all that.  He briefly had his hand back in season 4, and it backfired.  He asked for the hook back.  

If your manifestation in Underbrooke is a combination of how you see yourself, and reminders of what your unfinished business includes?  That hook wouldn't go anywhere.  It'd be firmly attached until he goes into the light.

[KingOfHearts]

After hearing Pan say he's "worse" then Zelena, I decided to rank who I think is the most powerful magically.

Strongest to weakest:
Hades > Post-5A Rumple > Emma > Merlin >  Apprentice > Peter Pan > Pre-5A Rumple > Cora > Zelena > Regina > Maleficent > Ingrid > Elsa > Cruella > Ursula > Glinda > Blue Fairy

Feel free to leave any feedback. Emma's magic is True Love, so technically she could be ranked top, but I don't think she has reached her highest potential yet. Hades and Post-5A Rumple are better learned and know how to control their tremendous power better. She wouldn't win in a magic battle.

Edited May 1, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

The power levels just seem to change depending on the arc, and I think it also depends on the setting.  Hades is more powerful in the Underworld, though at the same time, there has been a lot of things he hasn't able to prevent or he just let slide.  We could also rank their powers in terms of different types of ability (eg. being able to travel across realms vs. defending themselves).  For example, The Apprentice was really pathetic at defending himself, but he did have the power to summon a Door, though maybe that was using Merlin's magic.

Glinda vs. The Blue Fairy is interesting.  I know Blue is kinda useless, but the actress/character gives a vibe that she sometimes chooses not to use magic, because of her rigid rules and what she personally considers right and wrong.  I thought it was kinda funny how she refused to help Belle cast that protection spell using Rumple's magic in Season 3.

[kitticup]

My great hope is that Due to Hook's taking all the Dark One's power and rejecting it, that he is immune to all of Rumple's Magic, maybe all Dark Magic.  It would be an interesting twist because he doesn't have magic and is suspectible to injury from non-magic items, but it would put him on stronger footing with Rumple.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Glinda vs. The Blue Fairy is interesting.  I know Blue is kinda useless, but the actress/character gives a vibe that she sometimes chooses not to use magic, because of her rigid rules and what she personally considers right and wrong.  I thought it was kinda funny how she refused to help Belle cast that protection spell using Rumple's magic in Season 3.

There's been more evidence of Glinda's power than Blue's, imo. Her pendant gives her extra power and when connected to her witch sisters, she can break the rules of magic. All I can remember Blue doing is transform crickets and puppets. 

Quote

For example, The Apprentice was really pathetic at defending himself, but he did have the power to summon a Door, though maybe that was using Merlin's magic.

I thought he purposely let Zoso win because he knew the hat was protected by a spell.

Edited May 1, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

On 5/1/2016 at 7:59 PM, Mari said:

The circumstances he got the hook were a pivotal moment in stripping away someone he loved, and reforging his identity.  The hook became more than just a physical part of him; even his commonly used name came from it.

True. But on the other hand, he died making the ultimate choice of love over revenge, the choice he's been struggling with ever since he became Hook. He could have finally had his revenge on Rumple and gained eternal life and great power, but instead he chose to die to save all the others, including Rumple. When faced with the choice of what kind of man he wanted to be, he repudiated everything Captain Hook stood for, which meant he died as Killian Jones. That's why I'd have expected him to be hookless in the Underworld, since it isn't his physical body.

[InsertWordHere]

10 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Regina had a duo personality, but she was aware of her true identity and past. It was part of her download. She didn't need to suppress her evil tendencies. But she had to have some kind of alternate personality to fit into Storybrooke.

Opinions may vary, but I don't consider that an alternate personality at all. It was just the Evil Queen without magic and with new knowledge of the tools and locale around her. If a person woke up in a foreign country speaking the native language with no previous knowledge of the subject, it wouldn't change their personality.

Now, Regina post-3A and the Evil Queen are two distinct personalities in my book, but that had nothing to do with the Mayor Mills identity and more to do with feeling hope and love and all those other hero-type feelings. 

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Opinions may vary, but I don't consider that an alternate personality at all. It was just the Evil Queen without magic and with new knowledge of the tools and locale around her. If a person woke up in a foreign country speaking the native language with no previous knowledge of the subject, it wouldn't change their personality.

The Mayor Mills persona was a separate personality in her mind. Whether she chose to play it out or not was her choice. Everyone in the curse got a personality. Though who didn't had no understanding of the world (like Belle). Jefferson had that going and explicitly stated there were two lives in his head. The Our World 101 concept is a fan-created canon the show never officially adopted. There's no reason to assume Regina didn't have another personality dormant in her mind she could take advantage of whenever she wanted to act civil.

[legaleagle53]

9 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

The Mayor Mills persona was a separate personality in her mind. Whether she chose to play it out or not was her choice. Everyone in the curse got a personality. Though who didn't had no understanding of the world (like Belle). Jefferson had that going and explicitly stated there were two lives in his head. The Our World 101 concept is a fan-created canon the show never officially adopted. There's no reason to assume Regina didn't have another personality dormant in her mind she could take advantage of whenever she wanted to act civil.

Re the part in bold:  When did Jefferson say that?  What I remember him telling Emma is that his punishment from Regina was that unlike everyone else in Storybrooke, he retained his memories of who he was and where he originally came from and was forced to watch Gracie grow up as part of someone else's family with no memory of him or her real identity.  When Regina later offered to release Gracie from the curse in exchange for his help, he told her that he would prefer to be put fully under the curse and have his own memories and identity erased instead.  I don't remember him saying that he already had a dual identity/personality.

Edited May 2, 2016 by legaleagle53

[InsertWordHere]

Jefferson says it to David in 2.02. "All we'll do is both sit, stuck, two lives in our heads, cursed worse than ever. Two lives forever at odds." Jefferson is not Regina though. He did not cast the curse and he was meant to suffer. So if he got another personality while still remembering his true self, that would be a punishment. I don't recall any evidence that Regina had another personality, especially one at odds with her true self. Regina wasn't cursed. 

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

 I don't recall any evidence that Regina had another personality, especially one at odds with her true self. Regina wasn't cursed. 

There's no evidence to say she didn't have a suppressed one either.

[InsertWordHere]

10 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

There's no evidence to say she didn't have a suppressed one either.

IMO, the evidence against it would be that Regina, who is not known to keep quiet on her issues, has never once stated that she was dealing with two separate lives in her head. There's also the fact that the cursed personalities were meant as a punishment for her enemies or people she thought would be useful to her. I don't believe she ever thought David would wake up or that someone would free Belle before she could activate their cursed personalities. When David woke up, he was Charming, just a Charming without his memories. Still trying to find something, still drawn to Snow. Yet he expressed no confusion about modern times. He didn't ask what cars were or what the beeping thing next to his bed was. He didn't become David Nolan, with his wishy washy personality until after his encounter with the windmill and the new memories he received. 

Belle was only freed minutes before the curse was broken, at which point she was blank slate Belle and not Lacey Belle, but to my recollection, she expressed no confusion about technology between being freed and falling across the town line again. When she became a blank slate again (not nice, Hook!), she still wasn't confused about modern times, just confused about why this strange man was trying to kiss her. This is all before her cursed personality was activated. 

Regina was behind both the Lacey and David Nolan false memory activations. Both were intended to be a punishment on top of both victims having already lost their memories. Why would she do that to herself for no reason, if she already had her true memories?

Outside of the main players, I don't really think the cursed personalities of the background players were all that different from their true selves, anyway. How different is Archie from Jiminy (aside from not jumping down Snow's shirt)? Or Marco from Geppetto? What about Leroy and Grumpy? Sure, they needed Emma to come and give them hope and courage, but they otherwise acted pretty much like I assume those characters in modern times would act if they didn't remember who they were. 

[Rumsy4]

I agree that there is no reason to suppose Regina had a Cursed personality. In S2, the only reason she and Cora wouldn't leave the Townline to go after Rumple in New York was because they wouldn't have any magic. Neither of them had to worry about reverting to cursed personalities, as neither was Cursed. 

[Shanna Marie]

51 minutes ago, InsertWordHere said:

Belle was only freed minutes before the curse was broken, at which point she was blank slate Belle and not Lacey Belle, but to my recollection, she expressed no confusion about technology between being freed and falling across the town line again.

I don't recall technology coming up, but pre-Lacey Belle was amazed about "modern" stuff. She expressed surprise that they served tea with ice in this world, and went into OMG! awe about the concept of hamburgers. It really did seem like Belle was pure Belle, no modern life download or fake personality, until she crossed the town line and became Lacey. Post-Lacey, she was more at home in the modern world.

[InsertWordHere]

44 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I don't recall technology coming up, but pre-Lacey Belle was amazed about "modern" stuff.

Ah, I stand corrected with regards to Belle then. I knew I was forgetting something. 

[Camera One]

I thought raising the dead was against the rules of magic.  So why was there an Ambrosia tree down in the Underworld in the first place?  And only True Loves deserve to get their dead loved ones back?  

[YaddaYadda]

19 hours ago, Camera One said:

I thought raising the dead was against the rules of magic.  So why was there an Ambrosia tree down in the Underworld in the first place?  And only True Loves deserve to get their dead loved ones back?  

 

I think the tree was just there. From the sound of it, no one has ever ventured in the Underworld to get someone back, so it's not like the tree is there to raise the dead, or anything like that.

I found the look of that portion of the Underworld interesting looking. I wonder if it didn't turn like that because Hades cut the tree down.

[KingOfHearts]

We've already discussed this to death before, but I'm starting to think magic has to be both hereditary or acquired through special means. If that's not the case, there was no reason Rumple shouldn't have been able to use it without the dagger. It's looking unlikely that John Doe could take lessons and become a wizard.

If we look at everyone who learned how to use magic, they've all got some sort of genetic or outside artificiality connotation attached. Regina, Cora and Zelena are all from the same family. Ingrid and Elsa are too. Emma has it engineered into her because she was born from a True Love couple. However, people like Rumple, Cruella or Merlin got magic through a special means and they're powerless without it. There are a few odds and ends, like the Blind Witch or the Apprentice, but there's really no evidence to say it wasn't genetic/artificial for them too.

But here's what makes it confusing. Regina told Henry she could teach him magic in 2A before she knew Emma had magic. If that's the case, why don't more people learn magic?

Edited May 4, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[profdanglais]

Maybe Regina was lying to Henry to get him on her side. Maybe she thought he may have absorbed some magic from years of living with her. Maybe the writers just hadn't sorted out the details of magical ability yet ;)

Anyone read any Terry Pratchett? My favourite of his characters is Susan, Death's granddaughter. She's not his biological granddaughter, obviously, but the daughter of his adopted daughter, and she has magic. Death explains to her that there's more to family relationships and inheritance than mere genetics. I've always liked that idea, and even though Regina and Henry's relationship is deeply problematic, I don't think it's unrealistic for Regina to believe that her son might be able to use magic even if he's not biologically hers. 

[YaddaYadda]

This is going to sound extremely weird, but one of the most disappointing things for me in 5x20 was the way Emma's heart looked. Based on the way they made Henry's heart glow, and the goldish CGI they added around it because I'm assuming he has the heart of the truest stupid, I thought Emma's heart would have extra CGI, or white glow, or something because she's the Savior.

[Camera One]

What was the deal with Dreamcatchers in 5A?  Cora made Regina and Zelena forget without them, and Ingrid didn't need it to use one on Emma either.  And the memories are still quick and easy to return when needed.  This show is so full of random.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Camera One

[Camera One]

The crystal broken in two was useless to Hades.  But I'm sure a 1/3 shard of the crystal will be just what Rumple needs for whatever the hell he wants to do next.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Camera One

[Camera One]

What was with the sudden use of the drop-of-blood-on-a-map location technique?  Why did they not use it more often before, like when they were trying to find Emma in 4A?

And the Make a Wish on a Coin solution.  So could everyone in Storybrooke have just wished Emma and Mary Margaret back in 2A?  Wished the Anna and Elsa back at the end of 4A?  

How did Hyde make a cross-realm portal to take Pandora's Box?  Even Rumple can't do that.  Anyone can wield and fix the Sorcerer's Wand now?  

Merlin turned the Holy Grail into Excalibur.  There was another one displayed in Camelot?  Seriously?  If the wrong person had tried to use it, could it have just turned them into dust like Merlin's unfortunate friend?

[YaddaYadda]

What do they do with the extra Holy Grail? Turn it into a tray?

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

How did Hyde make a cross-realm portal to take Pandora's Box?  Even Rumple can't do that.  Anyone can wield and fix the Sorcerer's Wand now?  

I believe the issue had to do with the lack of magic. I'm guessing Hyde could only create the portal because the Olympian Crystal brought magic to LWM.

[InsertWordHere]

In the episode thread, we were talking about Henry's wish for a family bringing Hook to NYC a few days later who in turn brought Emma and Henry to their family in Storybrooke. This actually might go beyond Hook finding them in NYC. A few days before Hook showed up, Snowing and Regina were told they needed to find Emma (when in fact they didn't, since Regina ended up using light magic) to stop Zelena. Is it possible that Henry actually wished the second Dark Curse into being cast?

[CheshireCat]

On ‎04‎.‎05‎.‎2016 at 9:34 PM, profdanglais said:

 Maybe she thought he may have absorbed some magic from years of living with her. Maybe the writers just hadn't sorted out the details of magical ability yet ;)

I'm guessing either one though I think the latter is the most likely.

 

On ‎08‎.‎05‎.‎2016 at 2:43 AM, Camera One said:

What was the deal with Dreamcatchers in 5A?  Cora made Regina and Zelena forget without them, and Ingrid didn't need it to use one on Emma either.  And the memories are still quick and easy to return when needed.  This show is so full of random.

I don't know how Cora was able to give Regina and Zelena their memories back but both Ingrid and Emma stored the memories in something; Emma in the dreamcatchers, Ingrid in those little stones. So, maybe it's more about that than dreamcatchers being a tool? On the other hand, they established in S2 that memories could be accessed through dreamcatchers, so it wasn't something new. And maybe there are just several methods of doing so and Emma chose the dreamcatcher, also because she wanted to keep all the memories safe.

 

Quote

How did Hyde make a cross-realm portal to take Pandora's Box?  Even Rumple can't do that.  Anyone can wield and fix the Sorcerer's Wand now?  

 

 

On ‎16‎.‎05‎.‎2016 at 2:57 PM, KingOfHearts said:

I believe the issue had to do with the lack of magic. I'm guessing Hyde could only create the portal because the Olympian Crystal brought magic to LWM.

My guess would be that maybe the Land of Untold stories has its own rules? And maybe it wasn't a portal one could have travelled through, but maybe he was aiming for the box itself rather than making a portal? After all, he couldn't know where exactly the box was, so he'd have to aim for the box, not a portal in general.

I have a question, too. I know they've not followed up on the dark and light magic thing and what defines either, but with the Evil Queen now gone from her, does that mean, Regina's now using light magic, too? If not, wouldn't that mean the darkness inside of her is still powerful? I'm confused about this light and dark magic thing. I'm trying to create my own logic and try to make sense of it with the information we get, but I'm having a really tough time when it comes to light and dark magic. The information we get is just so vague that it's really hard to create something that makes sense.

Edited May 21, 2016 by CheshireCat

[Camera One]

Could Rumple just control Belle's father's heart and make him TLK Belle?  Or do TLK not work that way?  

How about erasing every memory that Belle's father has about Rumple.  Then, Rumple could tell the unwitting father that his beloved daughter is in a sleeping curse and needs a kiss to awaken.  Wouldn't this be a lot better than making deals with unreliable Hydes and tethering Storybrooke's magic to the crystal or whatever the hell he was trying to do?

How about turn "My Handsome Hero" into a person and have him kiss Belle?  I feel ilke I'm having a out-of-body Writers Room experience.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

Given how low the standards for a True Love's Kiss are (one conversation, or they don't even have to have met) and the fact that they've shown it doesn't have to be romantic love, it would be funny if Hook was able to wake Belle with a True Friendship Kiss. After all, she forgave him for what he'd done to her and they reconciled, and then he was her emotional support after Rumple's betrayal. There was an implication that they'd spent a lot of time together over the missing six weeks. We saw more of them as friends onscreen than we saw of some of the couples who had a TLK, and with them, there was more time implied when with the other couples, there was no It Happened Offscreen. I'm mostly amused by the mental image of Rumple's head exploding when Hook manages to unintentionally wake her with a quick forehead kiss after Rumple himself wasn't able to.

[Curio]

Did they even explore the Hook/Belle friendship in Season 5? Besides a few lines here and there about the Dark One stuff and having shots, they didn't interact at all after that.

[Camera One]

Grumpy is even better friends with Belle, so his kiss might work.

[Shanna Marie]

Yeah, Grumpy probably also might meet the ridiculously low standard, but how long has it been since we've seen them in a scene together? Season 2? And that would lack the Rumple head explosion potential of Hook. He'd be pissed that a dwarf could revive her when he couldn't, but it wouldn't be the same.

[Camera One]

Rumple saw Grumpy and Belle having breakfast at Granny's while he was in the Underworld in 5B.

Grumpy and Belle also shared a scene at the Camelot ball in 5A... they even danced off-screen.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

Oh yeah, I'd forgotten the background and vision stuff. Funny how even then Belle could have been played by a box without making any difference.