Daisy Johnson: That IS her name!

[OtterMommy]

3 minutes ago, teenj12 said:

Daisy's been the most developed character on this show.  She went from being freaking homeless, to being a freaking superhero. She went from not knowing how to defend herself to being able to take down anyone in her path.  You're just denying her development because it means you'll have to admit that she's the central protagonist. 

Going from homeless to superhero is a change of station, not character development.  I think the fact that it DOES lack character development is why some might have trouble connecting with her.

And that has nothing to do with whether or not she's the central protagonist.  There are, sadly, too many shows that have main characters/leads/central protagonists that never develop--even if Daisy did fill this role, it doesn't mean her character has evolved or regressed internally in any way.  Also, it is possible to dislike or even be lukewarm towards Daisy and really not care at all whether she is the big cheese or just one of the pack....

[kitlee625]

14 minutes ago, OtterMommy said:

Going from homeless to superhero is a change of station, not character development.  I think the fact that it DOES lack character development is why some might have trouble connecting with her.

And that has nothing to do with whether or not she's the central protagonist.  There are, sadly, too many shows that have main characters/leads/central protagonists that never develop--even if Daisy did fill this role, it doesn't mean her character has evolved or regressed internally in any way.  Also, it is possible to dislike or even be lukewarm towards Daisy and really not care at all whether she is the big cheese or just one of the pack....

I absolutely think that this is one big reason why I have trouble connecting with her, and I have talked to others who feel similarly. She may have changed her circumstances, her outfit, and her hairdo, but it's hard to know what's beneath all that.

 

I also want to add that conversely, I think a good show should develop all of it's characters, whether or not they're the "central protagonist." Not to be to off topic, but I've seen shows that were able to give a nice character arc to even recurring characters. This isn't about who gets to wear what title, it's about how the writers are presenting their story.

Edited August 31, 2016 by kitlee625
clarity

[SocaShoe]

Yes, on the central protangonist arguments from Kitlee625 and Ottermommy. 

I would also argue that Daisy has known how to basically take care of herself from the beginning. She was largely left on her own in the foster system. You don't get a van, and the kinds of computers needed to hack SHIELD by being helpless. But you can know how to do things that make money and still be childish and not grown emotionally. That's what the sticking point for me is. She still acts and makes decisions like Season 1 Skye. Think about the episode where she got shot in Season 1. Knowing the location of the delivery for Quinn, she could have held back, observed until there was movement or even tried to get back to headquarters. She chooses to go ahead on her belief she can do it and gets shot, then needs to be saved. How is this really different from Season 3 when Mack wants her to retreat from the Watchdogs compound and then she goes in anyway, which leads to Fitz nearly imploded with nitramene? (It also leads to Mack being falsely identified as an Inhuman and getting attacked and shot.) Two missions, three years apart and Daisy is still doing what she wants without a real thought to what it might cost someone. Admittedly, I think hanging out with Coulson encourages this behavior but it's tough to see a character that could be great just neglected in this way. It is what makes it very hard for me to watch her or be interested in her stories. 

[TVSpectator]

31 minutes ago, teenj12 said:

Daisy's been the most developed character on this show.  She went from being freaking homeless, to being a freaking superhero. She went from not knowing how to defend herself to being able to take down anyone in her path.  You're just denying her development because it means you'll have to admit that she's the central protagonist. 

 

 

 

But  going homeless to a superhero (because your daddy kidnapped you and activated some dominate alien gene that you didn't know you had)  doesn't really show character development, per say.  Right now, it feels that her character is really the same from Season 1. Her attitude seems to be the same as what it was in Season 1. Yes, I would say that her character was decent in Season 2 but in Season 3 they totally had that character take like 5 steps backwards. 

[teenj12]

1 hour ago, OtterMommy said:

Going from homeless to superhero is a change of station, not character development.  I think the fact that it DOES lack character development is why some might have trouble connecting with her.

And that has nothing to do with whether or not she's the central protagonist.  There are, sadly, too many shows that have main characters/leads/central protagonists that never develop--even if Daisy did fill this role, it doesn't mean her character has evolved or regressed internally in any way.  Also, it is possible to dislike or even be lukewarm towards Daisy and really not care at all whether she is the big cheese or just one of the pack....

You're trying so hard to ignore what happen in-between.

• Daisy was a homeless WOC for her early adult years, following a traumatic childhood in the Foster Care system.
• Daisy self taught herself hacking, and got on SHIELD's radar, because dayum - she was even better at it than they were.
• Daisy did not know how to defend herself upon joining up with SHIELD.
• Daisy was shot on a mission because she did not know how to defend herself. This lead to the discovery that Daisy had alien blood in her system.
• Throughout Season 1, the question of Daisy's past and parents is a constant, while the alien blood is the foundation of Garret's story (the main antagonist of the season).  
• Daisy was kidnapped by her abuser, Grant Ward after piecing together that he was HYDRA. Daisy left a message for her team revealing the truth and leading them to her and Ward.
• In Season 2, everything that lead back to Daisy (the alien blood, her parents/past) in Season 1, becomes the foundation of the stories in Season 2. This includes HYDRA's goal in obtaining and using the Diviners.
• Daisy trains under May throughout the first half of Season 2 and becomes a significantly better field agent. When Ward, her abuser, kidnaps her again (with the threat of killing her team by shooting down the Bus), Daisy remains cool under pressure.
• Daisy has an emotional reunion with her father, where he drops hints about her true nature (which had been a recurring theme throughout the entire show up to 'What They Become').
• Daisy shoots Ward, turning his own philosophy on him (never turn your back on the enemy).
• The Season 2 mid-finale ends with Daisy receiving powers - which is what Season 1 and 2.0 had been leading up to the entire time.
• Daisy initially has no control over her abilities.
• Daisy pushes her abilities inwards, harming herself in the process.
• Daisy is shameful of her powers and her nature. 
• Daisy shoots herself with a gun (yes, non-lethal, but still carries suicidal undertones), in order to stop her powers, because she is that ashamed and out of control.
• Daisy is isolated in a cabin, where she begins to explore the beauty in her abilities. 
• Daisy becomes a target of Real!SHIELD, and for the first time, uses her powers instinctively and with a bit more control.
• Daisy arrives in Afterlife, still uncomfortable with her Inhuman heritage.
• Daisy tells Lincoln that she called for Gordon, because she thought he could remove her abilities. 
• Daisy learns under Jaiyang how to control her abilities. This includes Daisy moving a fucking mountain, and carrying a tune.
• Daisy learns Jaiyang is her mother - the person she has been looking for her entire life.
• Daisy, Cal, and Jaiyang are reunited for the first time since she was born. 
• Daisy returns to her SHIELD friends just in time to join them on the 'Age Of Ultron' tie-in mission.
• During this mission, Daisy takes ALL of the skills and training she received from SHEILD/May and her mother, and uses them comfortably for the first time.  (This includes an impressive one-shot fight scene from Chloe Bennet, and a scene where Daisy directs her powers at Hydra agents)
  •  
• Daisy's loyalties are tested between the family she found (SHIELD), and the family that was taken away from her (Jaiyang/Cal/Inhumans).
• Daisy's inhuman storyline is the basis for Season 2.5, if you couldn't already tell.
• Raina, a clairvoyant, tells Daisy that she is destined to lead.
• Daisy learns that her mother has sinister intentions, but is knocked out and locked up before she can do anything.
• Daisy is freed by Mac, who is in dire need of her tech skills.
• Daisy takes on Alisha, and puts up an impressive fight. Daisy unfortunately begins to lose the fight, before May and Lincoln help her out. 
• Daisy makes the decision to go after her own mother (the season antagonist). Daisy and her mother begin to kill one another, but Daisy's father intervenes, killing Jaiyang himself - setting right the fact that he couldn't protect Daisy as a baby. This is a significant, symbolic ending to the story with Daisy and her parents. 
• Daisy has a final goodbye with her father.
• Daisy's action in pushing the quinjet in the ocean fundamentally changes the entire show, and potentially the Marvel Cinematic Universe as a whole. 
• Because of Daisy, Jaiyang did not kill off millions of Humans. 
• Coulson/Andrew discuss the possibility of Daisy leading a team of powered people. Andrew confirms that he believes Daisy is now ready for anything.
• Between S2 and 3, Skye changes her name to Daisy to honor her parents. This is a fundamental piece of character development for her, as she begins to embrace who she was always meant to be.
• Season 3 arrives, and new Inhumans emerge across the globe, because of Daisy's battle with Jaiyang. This is the core focus of Season 3.
• Daisy has garnered significant constraint and control over her abilities, now effectively using them how she pleases, and with great skill
  • 
• Daisy risks her life to save Jemma from Maveth, being the only person who can hold the portal open. (Purpose In The Machine)
• Season 3 sees Daisy transitioning into a leader, as she builds together the Secret Warriors.
• Daisy leads the mission on the Watchdogs. She confronts a racist, xenophobic white man about his part in helping a terrorist group kill innocent people for being who they are. Somehow, the people of previously.tv deem her to be going 'Dark!Daisy' because she broke a couple of windows.
• The people of previously.tv slander Daisy for risking Fitz's life, when he did THE SAME THING in 'Purpose In The Machine'. Ya know, when Fitz jumped into the portal without Daisy's consent, and she almost died holding it open for him.
• Daisy leads the Secret Warriors on SHIELD's attack at the Hydra castle in the mid-season finale of Season 3.
• Hive arrives on Earth, wearing the corpse of Daisy's abuser, Grant Ward.
• Lincoln admits numerous times during Season 3 that he's only at SHIELD for Daisy.
• During 'Spacetime', Daisy attempts to save the inhuman, Charles. He dies, but shortly before, asks her to protect his Inhuman daughter. Daisy promises that she will.
• Lincoln and Daisy take opposing sides to the idea of an Inhuman cure. Daisy, who is now comfortable with her powers and heritage, exclaims that 'Terrigenesis made her who she was supposed to be', that her powers allow her to 'stop bad people from doing bad things', that 'being different can mean making a difference'. This is a FAR CRY from the woman who SHOT HERSELF back in Season 2 because she didn't accept herself, and had no control.
• Hydra kidnaps the entire SHIELD agency.
• Daisy, having built a team of Inhumans, gathers them together.
• Daisy leads the Secret Warriors on a mission to rescue the entire SHIELD agency. Daisy's mission succeeds, but unfortunately, she has been put under Hive's mind control.
• Under Hive's mind control, Daisy fights against SHIELD.
• Daisy is eventually rescued by Lash, who's purpose was to save her so that she could end Hive.
• Daisy suffers withdrawal from her brain chemistry being changed. 
• Daisy has a face to face with Hive, where they engage in a classic Superhero vs. Supervillain battle.
• Daisy realizes that she is wearing the cross necklace. She decides to accept her fate in dying to stop Hive.
• Daisy set the coordinates and moved the nuke onto the Quinjet, where she has a final face to face with Hive.  
• Lincoln, wanting to prevent his girlfriend from dying, takes her place, forcefully pushing her out of the jet.
• Lincoln dies. 
• Daisy, having left SHIELD, keeps her promise to Charles in helping his Inhuman daughter and his wife.
• Daisy continues to take on her mother's mission in protecting and helping her people. 
• Daisy has become a vigilante named Quake. The very moment the show's narrative has been leading up to. And from the above bullet points, they arrived at this point quite beautifully.

Edited August 31, 2016 by teenj12

[OtterMommy]

10 minutes ago, teenj12 said:

You're trying so hard to ignore what happen in-between.

• Daisy was a homeless WOC for her early adult years, following a traumatic childhood in the Foster Care system.
• (snip...)
•  

The thing is...NONE of those are signs of character development.  They are things that happen, they are things that she may have done, but they did not fundamentally change who she is.  And, some of them are not even her actions. (Lincoln dying is not character development on the part of Daisy....I guess you could argue that it is character development on the part of Lincoln....).  

 

The fact that you were able to put together this list without citing a single example of any actual evolution or regression of Daisy's self pretty much validates what I and other have said.  Daisy--her inner character--is almost exactly the same at the end of season 3 as it was at the beginning of season 1.

Edited August 31, 2016 by OtterMommy
Shortening that huge quoted list....

[kieyra]

Heh, this whole thing is making me want to watch the next season even less. Is that the goal?

[kitlee625]

9 minutes ago, OtterMommy said:

The thing is...NONE of those are signs of character development.  They are things that happen, they are things that she may have done, but they did not fundamentally change who she is.  And, some of them are not even her actions. (Lincoln dying is not character development on the part of Daisy....I guess you could argue that it is character development on the part of Lincoln....).  

 

The fact that you were able to put together this list without actually citing a single example of any actual evolution or regression of Daisy's self pretty much validates what I and other have said.  Daisy's--her inner character--is almost exactly the same at the end of season 3 as it was at the beginning of season 1.

Additionally all of these things have happened to Daisy, but very little of it was driven by her making a conscious choice. Rather, someone else makes these choices for her and pushes her down the plot path each time. Again, this is not meant to be mean to the character but rather critical of the writing surrounding her.

Edited August 31, 2016 by kitlee625

[teenj12]

2 minutes ago, OtterMommy said:

The thing is...NONE of those are signs of character development.  They are things that happen, they are things that she may have done, but they did not fundamentally change who she is.  And, some of them are not even her actions. (Lincoln dying is not character development on the part of Daisy....I guess you could argue that it is character development on the part of Lincoln....).  

 

The fact that you were able to put together this list without citing a single example of any actual evolution or regression of Daisy's self pretty much validates what I and other have said.  Daisy's--her inner character--is almost exactly the same at the end of season 3 as it was at the beginning of season 1.

I feel like you didn't even read my list.

I guess going from suicidal and hating yourself to being confident and embracing who you are, isn't character development. 

I guess going from a person who can't defend themselves to a person who trained over three seasons to be an unstoppable badass isn't character development.

I guess embracing your identity and heritage after so much pain isn't character development.

[TVSpectator]

16 minutes ago, teenj12 said:

I feel like you didn't even read my list.

I guess going from suicidal and hating yourself to being confident and embracing who you are, isn't character development. 

I guess going from a person who can't defend themselves to a person who trained over three seasons to be an unstoppable badass isn't character development.

I guess embracing your identity and heritage after so much pain isn't character development.

 

 

I did read your list and the others are right. IMO, they are not real character growth. She is basically the same character from Season 1 and that version was willing to leak all of SHIELD's secrets onto the Internet (and then everyone was literally ready to forgive her the moment they found out). Also, since when was Skye/Daisy suicidal/hating herself? 

Here are a few thoughts about your posts (and honestly I can't type more out, I am so tired and I need some sleep). 

No, I do not think she builds the Secrete Warriors/Inhuman team by herself. She is working for SHIELD and Coulson is the one who is building the team. He is only letting Daisy lead it because he has some kind of obsession with her. 

Well, Skye/Daisy caused that emergence of Inhumans across the globe when she "accidently" knocked that helicopter into the sea, with Terrigen Crystals inside it. I had to say this. She literally causes the events of Season 3 and was like (during that season) "oh, well every Inhuman has a special gift and we are so cool. Come join my team where I will be your leader."

Lincoln's actions in the finale isn't character growth for Daisy but for Lincoln. 

Lincoln admitting he is only at SHIELD for Daisy, isn't character growth for Daisy but for Lincoln. 

Making Lash's true purpose is saving Daisy isn't character growth for Daisy but retconning a character to fit into the "Daisy is a special snowflake" identity and IMO also is very sloppy writing. 

Daisy didn't lead any team into the Hydra castle and any real action happened off-screen.

I know that the whole issue with Ward is creepy as hell (and was kind of sick) but how was he her absurder? Sure he kidnapped her but I don't remember when he was outright physically hurting her (although, he did kill a few of her friends/other SHIELD agents). 

When Hydra kidnapped the other main cast, they were actually saving themselves, when Fitz made muster gas in the supply closet and pumping out to kill/blind all of the Hydra mooks/goons outside the closet. 

This is just a few rebukes to your list. All of this isn't character growth for Daisy. 

Edited August 31, 2016 by TVSpectator

[OtterMommy]

43 minutes ago, teenj12 said:

I feel like you didn't even read my list.

I guess going from suicidal and hating yourself to being confident and embracing who you are, isn't character development. 

I guess going from a person who can't defend themselves to a person who trained over three seasons to be an unstoppable badass isn't character development.

I guess embracing your identity and heritage after so much pain isn't character development.

Oh, I read your list.  I'm not sure you quite understand what "character development" is.  An example, one that I wouldn't normally use as it was all done in a flashback, but I think is clear and compact enough to illustrate this point, is Melinda May.  

As I said, this was done in a flashback, so try to look at this in real (AoS) time, not in the order it was presented in the show.*

May is a confident Shield agent, who is happily married and preparing to start a family.  Then, she encounters the inhuman girl and that whole episode ensues.  May comes out of it damaged--but does she go back to being happily married and preparing to start a family?  No...she shuts down, leaves her marriage, takes a desk job, and--once she returns to the field for Shield--she is a hardened, almost emotionless (at least when we meet her) spy who is known for her cold-hearted devotion to her job.

*I haven't actually seen that episode since it aired, so that is a very high-level summary and I may have messed up on a few details.

My point with this is that May went through something and came out the other side fundamentally changed.  Daisy went through something and can make things shake, but really little else has changed with her except her name.  Your exhaustive list is, well, a summary of what has happened to Daisy.  Fine...but none of that led to any real change with her the way this one incident did with May.

Also, I'm not sure where you get this that Daisy was helpless and never able to defend herself.  She was pretty scrappy and street smart the moment we saw her in episode 1.  Other than her new shake abilities, nothing has really changed there.

28 minutes ago, TVSpectator said:

Well, Skye/Daisy caused that emergence of Inhumans across the globe when she "accidently" knocked that helicopter into the sea, with Terrigen Crystals inside it. I had to say this. She literally causes the events of Season 3 and was like (during that season) "oh, well every Inhuman has a special gift and we are so cool. Come join my team where I will be your leader."

 

Yeah, that's not character development....that's just clumsiness.

Edited August 31, 2016 by OtterMommy

[teenj12]

4 minutes ago, TVSpectator said:

I did read your list and the others are right. IMO, they are not real character growth. She is basically the same character from Season 1 and that version was willing to leak all of SHIELD's secrets onto the Internet (and then everyone was literally ready to forgive her the moment they found out). Also, since when was Skye/Daisy suicidal/hating herself? 

Here are a few thoughts about your posts (and honestly I can't type more out, I am so tired and I need some sleep). 

No, I do not think she builds the Secrete Warriors/Inhuman team by herself. She is working for SHIELD and Coulson is the one who is building the team. He is only letting Daisy lead it because he has some kind of obsession with her. 

Well, Skye/Daisy caused that emergence of Inhumans across the globe when she "accidently" knocked that helicopter into the sea, with Terrigen Crystals inside it. I had to say this. She literally causes the events of Season 3 and was like (during that season) "oh, well every Inhuman has a special gift and we are so cool. Come join my team where I will be your leader."

Lincoln's actions in the finale isn't character growth for Daisy but for Lincoln. 

Lincoln admitting he is only at SHIELD for Daisy, isn't character growth for Daisy but for Lincoln. 

Making Lash's true purpose is saving Daisy isn't character growth for Daisy but retconning a character to fit into the "Daisy is a special snowflake" identity and IMO also is very sloppy writing. 

Daisy didn't lead any team into the Hydra castle and any real action happened off-screen.

I know that the whole issue with Ward is creepy as hell (and was kind of sick) but how was he her absurder? Sure he kidnapped her but I don't remember when he was outright physically hurting her (although, he did kill a few of her friends/other SHIELD agents). 

When Hydra kidnapped the other main cast, they were actually saving themselves, when Fitz made muster gas in the supply closet and pumping out to kill/blind all of the Hydra mooks/goons outside the closet. 

This is just a few rebukes to your list. All of this isn't character growth for Daisy. 

I guess I should of been clearer, but the list wasn't just about character development. It was a combination of Daisy's character development, evidence that she's the lead, and that the show's narrative centers back to her.

• No, she didn't build it by herself, but again, she was the leader and the one mostly in charge of the project. She rescued Joey, brought in Elena, and Lincoln was only at SHIELD because he was in love with her anyway.
• I hate the way you are grossly generalizing how Daisy felt about the emergence of new Inhumans. She wanted these people to feel accepting of themselves, to realize 'being different can mean making a difference'. 
• 'Special snowflake' is a term some of you made up to shame a WOC for being the main lead, and it's wrong.
• In the mid-season 3 finale, Daisy led Lincoln and Joey in the Hydra castle, where they worked together as a team for the first time sans Yo-yo.
• You're implying that abuse is only physical. Ward has kidnapped Daisy twice (how is that not abuse right there?). He also threatened to rape her, touched on her without her consent, and used emotional abuse on her.

[Lady Calypso]

I can say that Daisy went through some character development, but ultimately, she's began regressing back to her season 1 self, which hinders the small amount of development that she's gone through. I can say that finding out who her family is and getting her Quake power did help in some ways, but now she's gone rogue again, much like season 1. Except now she has a cool power to go along with her hacking skills. All because...Lincoln died, I guess? 

2 minutes ago, teenj12 said:

• 'Special snowflake' is a term some of you made up to shame a WOC for being the main lead, and it's wrong.

I disagree with this. This term is usually used when one character is the center of everything, especially when they really shouldn't be. They get all the storylines and all of the screen time over others and they are seemingly loved by the showrunners and producers but they fail in some way with the audience. I never have loved the term, but I have used it myself. In this case, it does apply to Daisy, who does get far too much screen time in a supposed ensemble show. It has NOTHING to do with her being a WOC. Nothing at all. It may factor into some people, but not here. There has barely been any mention of her being a WOC, except that people didn't realize at first that Chloe is a WOC and now they know. We aren't Tumblr fanatics here. I'd like to think we're all civil, mature people that don't resort to racial insensitivities as a reason to hate someone. 

Basically, this show shouldn't center back to Daisy. It could center back to ALL OF THEM. Because it's still an ensemble show at the end of the day. But if they choose to make Daisy the center of all plot points (which is NOT true; there are plenty of plots that have not led back to Daisy), then fine. But it gives people plenty of reason to criticize and hate without it being a race issue. It's a character issue there. 

[SocaShoe]

No one here made up the term special snowflake. It's urban slang and is generally defined as " a person who believes they are different and unique from everyone else because of something they are or do. This thing they are or do, most commonly is something is something many many other people are doing,. Special Snowflakes almost always have a superiority complex."

The term itself is thought to be derived from a Tyler Durden quote in the movie Fight Club. And this is not the only board or site that has called Daisy a special snowflake. My references to Daisy have nothing to do with seeing her as a woman of color either. I see her as a badly written character. And often I find that it's Coulson (even though he's been my favorite character at times.) who helps enable the special snowflake syndrome that Daisy suffers from by continuously putting her safety and well being above every other person at SHIELD.

[teenj12]

8 hours ago, SocaShoe said:

No one here made up the term special snowflake. It's urban slang and is generally defined as " a person who believes they are different and unique from everyone else because of something they are or do. This thing they are or do, most commonly is something is something many many other people are doing,. Special Snowflakes almost always have a superiority complex."

The term itself is thought to be derived from a Tyler Durden quote in the movie Fight Club. And this is not the only board or site that has called Daisy a special snowflake. My references to Daisy have nothing to do with seeing her as a woman of color either. I see her as a badly written character. And often I find that it's Coulson (even though he's been my favorite character at times.) who helps enable the special snowflake syndrome that Daisy suffers from by continuously putting her safety and well being above every other person at SHIELD.

• Daisy is 'different' and 'unique' from the other MC's, because she's literally half-alien. 
• Daisy has never had a 'Superiority Complex'. Remember that she has shot herself, repressed her powers to point of breaking her bones, and asked for them to be removed. All because she was ashamed of who she was. Her becoming confident and accepting of herself in Season 3 has nothing to do with a 'Superiority Complex'. You sound like the same type of person who shames women for becoming confident in themselves and having leadership traits stereotypically associated with men.
• Daisy becoming a more competent field agent after being untrained, shot, and kidnapped twice has nothing to do with her being a 'special snowflake'. When you say this it sounds like you're literally shaming her for becoming a better agent. 

[SocaShoe]

No, you would be cherry-picking the definition here. 

It says, a person who believes they are different or unique because of something they are or do. Daisy believes she's different and unique because she is half alien and it leads her to think that she and her powers are the best solution for every situation that arises. That is not always the case.

This thing they do, most commonly is something many many other people are doing. So Daisy became a field agent. So did Mack, Fitz, Simmons,  and May, who returned to the field after riding a desk. I would also argue Daisy's confidence has always been there too. You don't fake your way onto a SHIELD team because you lack confidence in yourself. 

When you talk about me being someone who shames women for becoming confident - I honestly don't know what you're trying to do with this except try to distract me from the debate at hand, hoping that I will engage on some sort of personal level. I will not. So within the AOS world, I actually have great interest and like for the characters of May and Simmons. I even at times liked Rosalind for her no-nonsense way of taking people down. Lady Sif freaking rules and should be the leader of Asgard over all the Odinson's family. And I would be remiss if I talked about SHIELD and didn't mention the amazing Peggy Carter who founded SHIELD. If I would say anything about female characters in general is that I get frustrated and put off by lazy writing that relies on tropes and old fashioned ideas of what a great female character should be. That is why I criticize the character of Daisy. 

Also, I have not questioned Daisy's skills. I even pointed out that she had to have skills when we first met the character. I criticize her emotional growth as a character.  We get to see Daisy shoot, run and jump. What we're not seeing is really strong emotional growth and that tends to contradict what we hear from other characters who tell us how awesome she is. And I want to see it. I want to see better characters because I believe that those characters will be sustainable.

Edited September 1, 2016 by SocaShoe
changed powers to situation.

[TVSpectator]

20 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I can say that Daisy went through some character development, but ultimately, she's began regressing back to her season 1 self, which hinders the small amount of development that she's gone through. I can say that finding out who her family is and getting her Quake power did help in some ways, but now she's gone rogue again, much like season 1. Except now she has a cool power to go along with her hacking skills. All because...Lincoln died, I guess? 

I disagree with this. This term is usually used when one character is the center of everything, especially when they really shouldn't be. They get all the storylines and all of the screen time over others and they are seemingly loved by the showrunners and producers but they fail in some way with the audience. I never have loved the term, but I have used it myself. In this case, it does apply to Daisy, who does get far too much screen time in a supposed ensemble show. It has NOTHING to do with her being a WOC. Nothing at all. It may factor into some people, but not here. There has barely been any mention of her being a WOC, except that people didn't realize at first that Chloe is a WOC and now they know. We aren't Tumblr fanatics here. I'd like to think we're all civil, mature people that don't resort to racial insensitivities as a reason to hate someone. 

Basically, this show shouldn't center back to Daisy. It could center back to ALL OF THEM. Because it's still an ensemble show at the end of the day. But if they choose to make Daisy the center of all plot points (which is NOT true; there are plenty of plots that have not led back to Daisy), then fine. But it gives people plenty of reason to criticize and hate without it being a race issue. It's a character issue there. 

 

 

 

Well, I would say that the character of Skye/Daisy was improved in Season 2; the writing made some really good steps in the right directions. Then in Season 3, all of those steps started to go in the wrong direction and now we have what we have at the end of Season 3. 

1 hour ago, teenj12 said:

• Daisy is 'different' and 'unique' from the other MC's, because she's literally half-alien. 
• Daisy has never had a 'Superiority Complex'. Remember that she has shot herself, repressed her powers to point of breaking her bones, and asked for them to be removed. All because she was ashamed of who she was. Her becoming confident and accepting of herself in Season 3 has nothing to do with a 'Superiority Complex'. You sound like the same type of person who shames women for becoming confident in themselves and having leadership traits stereotypically associated with men.
• Daisy becoming a more competent field agent after being untrained, shot, and kidnapped twice has nothing to do with her being a 'special snowflake'. When you say this it sounds like you're literally shaming her for becoming a better agent. 

 

 

Here is the urban dictionary of the term special snowflake:

 

Quote

The Special Snowflake (Also referred to as one with the "Special Snowflake Syndrome" or "SSS") is a person who believes they are different and unique from everyone else because of something there are or do. This thing they are or do, most commonly is something is something many many other people are doing, E.G.Genderfluid, Therian (Otherkin), etc. Special Snowflakes almost always have a superiority complex.

 

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=special snowflake

[hello]

LOL, first of all, some folks are using urban dictionary as any sort of definitive source? That steaming shitpile of a website can be edited by any middling fool and is as reliable as the half-understood, distantly-overheard gossip of a mumbling drunkard.

Secondly - of course there have been character development moments for Daisy! Tons of them. It's just that the actress playing her doesn't have nearly the range or skill needed to convey those changes. We're just getting one-note performances from her when the character should now have the emotional nuance of a god-damned symphony.

Part of an intergalactic experiment spanning thousands of years? Mysteriously abandoned at birth in an unforgiving world? Gut-shot and left for dead before being revived by the blood of ancient aliens? Finding her parents again - only to discover they're deadly loons and having to help kill one of them and wipe the other's mind? On and on. These are moments that should have changed the performance drastically over the years, but the actress wasn't able to pull it off (and from all outward signs doesn't even know she should have been trying to pull it off).

[TVSpectator]

The Urban Dictionary defination was posted only to prove that the term special snowflake isn`t made up. 

[SocaShoe]

Yes. It was brought up that board members had somehow made up the term "special snowflake." Then the use of the term was questioned. These things were answered.

[teenj12]

33 minutes ago, SocaShoe said:

Yes. It was brought up that board members had somehow made up the term "special snowflake." Then the use of the term was questioned. These things were answered.

I feel like we're going in circles, but Daisy definitely gets some unwarranted hate here. So much to the point that half of you were comfortable with her name change not being reflected in the thread title. I feel like it's all out of punishing the character because you can't accept that she's the central lead.

Edited September 1, 2016 by teenj12

[Lady Calypso]

55 minutes ago, teenj12 said:

I feel like we're going in circles, but Daisy definitely gets some unwarranted hate here. So much to the point that half of you were comfortable with her name change not being reflected in the thread title. I feel like it's all out of punishing the character because you can't accept that she's the central lead.

I wasn't here for the name change aspect, but we obviously all have differing opinions about Daisy. Some people don't like her for good reasons. At this point, I guess we have to agree to disagree and move on, because all this is doing is making us all reiterate the same points over and over, and it feels like it's heading into personal territory when it shouldn't. Us not liking Daisy (and I feel like we all feel differently about Daisy in different ways- dislike, indifference, 'meh', like, love, etc) and you loving Daisy can be mutually exclusive on here, for sure! And the discussions are great, when they're civil. But I'm personally feeling like there's a difference between discussion/argument over Daisy as a character and sweeping into defensive territory. 

I, for one, think that Daisy is an important character but one that I do not like getting the special treatment on this show. I feel like this is an ensemble show and it should go back to that. Skye became Daisy who became Quake and she hit her comic book origins. That's great. But now what? Maybe it's time to focus more on other characters and their histories and growth. Daisy will always be part of the story, just like Ward was for three damn seasons, and probably will always be part of it in some way. But maybe it's time to reduce some of her importance for others who have been suffering because of all this Inhuman crap. For example, May, who only got her Andrew storyline and not enough of it. Or Mack, who we've seen one episode centered around him and I would love to see more and have him become important to the show. 

[Chris24601]

I'm gonna have to agree with those saying the show's story has basically been about Skye/Daisy and Coulson (I'd label them as co-leads myself).

Season One was slightly more Coulson-centric, but not by much. The series literally opens with her voice over and while Mike is the first super we see, Skye the person who becomes the viewpoint character into how SHIELD works and what they do. The pilot could easily be renamed "How Skye joined SHIELD."

Episode two introduces the concept of 0-8-4's... which becomes central to Skye/Daisy's plot down the line. Episode three is Skye going undercover for the first time. Episode four introduces Hydra's exploding eyeballs, Five introduces Raina.

The Bridge and The Magical Place are both about learning what really happened to Coulson, but also where Skye earns her full creds back with the team after losing them (and access to computers outside of controlled situations).

Seeds gives us the first real taste of what's to come with the reveal that Skye was the 0-8-4 and that someone was killing everyone in their path to find her.

We get then get T.R.A.C.K.S./T.A.H.I.T.I. where Daisy is shot and injected with the Kree-based drug and we get the first connection to the Kree.

Shortly after that Skye becomes a full member of SHIELD and we get the big Hydra reveal where Grant needs Skye to decrypt the files and Raina further establishes Skye's background with the story that the monsters slaughtering everyone to get to Skye are her parents.

Season Two opened with introducing the Diviner that would eventually unlock Daisy's powers and the villain who destroyed her family, then moved on to deciphering Coulson's writings which again... led to the place where the Diviner will unlock Daisy's powers. We're introduced to Daisy's father and learn her true origins and the entire climax of the season's first half is Skye going down into the Kree city to stop Raina and having her powers unlocked.

2B is all about Skye's Inhuman heritage where even seemingly unrelated stories (ex. how May became "The Cavalry") turned out to actually be related to Daisy's Inhuman heritage. "Real SHIELD" only decides its time to move in because of the threat posed by Inhumans, but the final villain of the season doesn't even end up being "Real SHIELD" but Daisy's crazy mom.

Season Three continues the trend. The Inhumans are popping up as a direct consequence of Daisy's actions. Jemma getting lost on an alien world is as much about introducing the "ultimate Inhuman" as it is about Jemma and Fitz. May's failed reconciliation with her husband didn't fail because of anything related to May, but because he was unknowingly an Inhuman whose powers were intended to counter Hive's.

So yeah... other characters get to do stuff and have their sub-plots, but even a lot of their sub-plots just end up feeding into the main stories of Skye/Daisy and/or Coulson. For all her popularity, May is a supporting character... her entire story has been about supporting Coulson (as confidant and at times care-taker) and Daisy (as her training officer once Ward goes bad), but even the things that look like her own stories; Andrew and "The Cavalry" only existed to service Daisy's story. The same is true of Fitz/Simmons... Simmons feelings about 'monsters' are used to push Daisy's anxiety over being discovered, Fitz's accident and recovery gives him perspective on how Skye is 'just different now, but that's okay.' Simmons getting sucked into an alien world is about introducing Hive, Fitz's efforts to rescue Will for her coincide with Hive being freed (as does Coulson killing Ward to get his revenge).

Yes, its an ensemble show in that it has lots of regulars, but ensembles can have leads who get a lot more focus than the others (ex. Sam on Cheers, the captain on the various Star Trek series, Rip Hunter on Legends of Tomorrow). On this show those leads are without a doubt Coulson and Daisy.

[Sakura12]

It still surprises me that people didn't know that Chloe Bennet is Asian, it was the same for Kristen Kruek on Smallville.  I guess because I'm half Asian as well I recognize others. I was thrilled to see 2 female Asian leads on this show. 

[KatWay]

With Kristin Kreuk I knew right away (she's really gorgeous). but with Chloe Bennet I had no idea until someone wrote about it. Chloe is definitely white-passing (as much as I don't like that term) so I don't like it when people try to claim her as a success story for WOC (or try claiming disliking her must be because she's a WOC). I mean I'm glad she's doing well in the business and all, but call me when Ming-Na gets the focus she deserves.

[teenj12]

On 9/21/2016 at 0:57 PM, KatWay said:

With Kristin Kreuk I knew right away (she's really gorgeous). but with Chloe Bennet I had no idea until someone wrote about it. Chloe is definitely white-passing (as much as I don't like that term) so I don't like it when people try to claim her as a success story for WOC (or try claiming disliking her must be because she's a WOC). I mean I'm glad she's doing well in the business and all, but call me when Ming-Na gets the focus she deserves.

I think that's a dangerous line of thinking. It's true that lighter-skinned POC (or those with whiter features, like Chloe) often receive higher privileges, but that's not to say racism isn't still a factor against them. I've mentioned this before, but Chloe Bennet could not get roles because of her ethnicity. So her being the star of SHIELD is a success story.

[Sakura12]

Just because Chloe Bennet doesn't look Asian to some people doesn't mean she's not. She's still a success story for Asian actors because she is Asian. 

Ming may not get the front centered story lines but she's still a star of the show. I just saw a poll where she won most badass woman on a super hero show. Chloe was number 6. They seem to have based it on whether the actress does their own stunts and at over 50 Ming is the most impressive. 

[KatWay]

Of course she's a success story for Asian actors because she's Asian but I don't think she's much of a success story for discrimination against WOC in Hollywood. Would someone actually looking "ethnic" or whatever Hollywood likes to call it, would have gotten that role and been the writers' darling like that? Probably not.

[teenj12]

16 hours ago, KatWay said:

Of course she's a success story for Asian actors because she's Asian but I don't think she's much of a success story for discrimination against WOC in Hollywood. Would someone actually looking "ethnic" or whatever Hollywood likes to call it, would have gotten that role and been the writers' darling like that? Probably not.

• The show's co-creator, Maurissa Tancharoen, is an Asian woman. Yes, AOS is being run by an Asian woman who has so far provided many Asian actors opportunity on this show (Giyera, May, Daisy, Agent 33, etc), and other POC. You didn't think AOS's diversity in comparison to the rest of the MCU came from solely white men, did you???
• Chloe Bennet has stated that she could not get roles in Hollywood because she was Asian. Directors would tell her: "You're too Asian for the lead role, and you're too White to be the 'best friend' ".
• Chloe also changed her last name from the Asian-sounding 'Wang' to the white-sounding 'Bennet' in order to help her career.

Edited September 23, 2016 by teenj12

[Terrafamilia]

On 9/21/2016 at 11:28 AM, Sakura12 said:

It still surprises me that people didn't know that Chloe Bennet is Asian, it was the same for Kristen Kruek on Smallville.  I guess because I'm half Asian as well I recognize others. I was thrilled to see 2 female Asian leads on this show. 

The don't know because just looking at them they don't see it. And most people don't feel the need to look up actors' genealogies. Heck, even with Dinchen Lachlan, until her background was pointed out to me she didn't register as any particular ethnicity other than the versatile "exotic".

21 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Just because Chloe Bennet doesn't look Asian to some people doesn't mean she's not. She's still a success story for Asian actors because she is Asian.

To "some" people? I daresay it's 90+% of people if they are being brutally honest.

Quick test. Is this guy Asian or black? You can only pick one, because, apparently, that's what people insist on in this country.

[Sakura12]

That guy is half just like I am and like Chloe Bennet is as well as Kristen Kruek, Dichen Lachman and Maggie Q. I can see that all of them including the guy in the pic are part Asian. 

We don't get to choose one. We get put into one or the other or neither or completely different race (I've had people think I was Mexican). Asians would consider me white, and White people consider me Asian. We are known as Hapas, which means someone who is partially of Asian or Pacific Islander descent. We are both and there is nothing we can do about that. But that doesn't erase the fact that we are Asian. I also identify more with my Asian side because that's the side I know more about and grew up with. I consider myself Asian. 

I imagine it's hard for Chloe Bennet and other Hapa actors, because one casting director can see someone too ethnic looking and another will see a white girl. 

Edited September 24, 2016 by Sakura12

[Terrafamilia]

I'm honestly struggling with the idea that Chloe Bennet looks "too ethnic" to anyone. I can see someone with some Asian background in this picture and especially this one but that is only because the makeup is playing up that part. In others she's just the all-American girl next door (I got a kick out of that Miley impression). Ideally, this would indicate a "look" that could cover a range of roles rather than throw up roadblocks, but then again, Hollywood is full of noodle-brains.

[teenj12]

18 hours ago, Terrafamilia said:

The don't know because just looking at them they don't see it. And most people don't feel the need to look up actors' genealogies. Heck, even with Dinchen Lachlan, until her background was pointed out to me she didn't register as any particular ethnicity other than the versatile "exotic".

Please don't use 'exotic' to describe POC. 

Not sure what you're even talking about with Dichen Lachman. I immediately recognized her as Asian. 

[Terrafamilia]

Dichen Lachman has a look that could encompass a number of ethnicities. And that is not a bad thing.

[teenj12]

3 minutes ago, Terrafamilia said:

Dichen Lachman has a look that could encompass a number of ethnicities. And that is not a bad thing.

Okay, but there's a better word for that than 'exotic'.

[Lady Calypso]

I think we can all agree that it's excellent that Agents of SHIELD have multiple POCs on their show as main characters. Ming Na-Wen, Chloe Bennet, and Henry Simmons. Plus, we have BJ Britt, Dichen Lachman, J August Richards, and Natalia Cordova-Buckley (Yo-Yo) in supporting roles. The fact that there are two Asian actresses in lead roles is pretty rare in television. Usually, if there's more than one POC, they're of different ethnicities. 

We've come a long way from the typical all white cast or worse (the all white cast plus the one minority to fill a quota). We obviously have a ways to go still, but the fact that we have Daisy AND May AND Mack in major roles on the show? That's pretty darn cool. Hopefully we get more of May and Mack as well. 

I really do like Daisy and think it's great to have her on the show as a POC, but that's clearly not all she is. But the one thing they need to fix this season? Her damn makeup, man. Stop making her look like a raccoon! It looked a lot better in the thirty seconds at the end of last season! 

[romantic idiot]

On 8/29/2016 at 6:32 AM, kitlee625 said:

IMHO the show relies way too heavily on interviews with cast/writers to tell the viewers what is going on, and what people's motivations are. Another symptom of shoddy writing. Everyone we need to know should be on the screen.

This. Also, I think the less than stellar actresses need this as more of a crutch than others. 

On 8/29/2016 at 6:56 AM, kieyra said:

As a final note, I'll say that if this becomes the Daisy show, I'm out. I'm halfway out already due to the loss of Bobbi/Hunter. Too much other good TV and comic TV out there.

Pretty much this. I watch this show despite Daisy and it's almost at that point where it's more trouble than it's worth. They even ruined Lincoln for me by forcing me to watch Daisy during his screentime. 

On 8/29/2016 at 9:09 AM, teenj12 said:

But Daisy's race is important in this. People of color very rarely get leading roles, especially in superhero media. So when some of you invalidate Daisy/Chloe Bennet's status as the Main Lead, you are also discrediting how revolutionary this is for fans of color, and for the actress. A little fun fact, Chloe Bennet had to change her Asian sounding last name (Wang) to a white sounding name in order to get roles. 

Not trying to discredit her current role as a main lead. Unfortunately she has taken over the show. and IMO, to the show's detriment. She is a lead. Which is part of what makes this show a mediocre show for me, when I had such interest in it and have been doing my best to loyally complete my chore of watching this show every week. 

And noted the fun fact above, but it's hardly uncommon. Many people change their names and go for a more suitable sounding 'screen' name. Including Marilyn Monroe and Judy Garland. Akshay Kumar, down here in India. Not to mention pretty much everyone in the porn industry. And many authors. Don't see the big deal there. However, my contention is that had she been a better actress, her lack of roles may not have been as dire. 

On 8/30/2016 at 0:37 AM, teenj12 said:

But the fact is, her being a POC is incredibly important in certain conversations like this, especially considering Chloe's struggle to find work because of her race before she was casted on SHIELD. 

And Ok, fun facts notwithstanding, I think her lack of roles has probably more to do with her shortcomings as an actress. Even looking at the gifs a few pages ago, there isn't a lot of nuance there and the line reading reminds me of intra-mural competitions at home. While CB is capable of showing an emotion, there is little capacity there for mixed feelings, iMO, which is where nuance comes from. Ming Na, on the other hand, manages to convey love and contempt while keeping her face completely still. 

Again, really really think that the struggles would have been less had she been a better actress. I saw her in Nashville and then I saw here in this and was looking forward to seeing what she did with the role. Unfortunately, nothing particularly inspired ensued. 

On 8/30/2016 at 8:27 AM, kitlee625 said:

In my book, special effects don't trump the narrative. They can put as many special effects on her as they want, but I'm still going to disappointed with the way that the writers choose to resolve their big conflicts - by having Cal (season 2) and Lincoln (season 3) swoop in and save the day for Daisy.

And I'll be very clear, but I was really rooting for Daisy to save the day. They built up her special destiny, they built up the Daisy/Ward and Daisy/Hive conflict. But in the end, the writers chose to let Lincoln be the hero sacrificing himself for the greater good, and Daisy to be the sobbing girlfriend begging for him to come back.

And that's a real issue I had with the character. For all her powers, she's spent so much time getting rescued and putting her teammates in danger because of her harebrained schemes. And the show wants me to buy that she is special - after all, Lash was created to save her (as only she could defeat Hive? except no, that was Lincoln, so why exactly was she so important to the universe?), and Coulson is always willing to sacrifice everyone for her - but I've never gotten why. And I'm assuming it's not because Daisy Johnson is a WOC. Or is that why? In which case, surely May qualifies more? (Random thought probably belongs elsewhere but maybe Coulson is obsessed with Daisy because of the Kree blood in his system, maybe she's a Jasmine rather than a Willow?)

On 8/31/2016 at 7:19 AM, kitlee625 said:

I absolutely think that this is one big reason why I have trouble connecting with her, and I have talked to others who feel similarly. She may have changed her circumstances, her outfit, and her hairdo, but it's hard to know what's beneath all that.

I also want to add that conversely, I think a good show should develop all of it's characters, whether or not they're the "central protagonist." Not to be to off topic, but I've seen shows that were able to give a nice character arc to even recurring characters. This isn't about who gets to wear what title, it's about how the writers are presenting their story.

Agreed that a good show should develop all its characters. But the show runners do have a history of letting single characters take over the show (though at least with Dollhouse they did try  to explain better why Echo was so special eventually). And AoS, despite Joss is no Whedonverse show. However, I do think a lot of it also has to rest on the actress and while she may be a WOC actress, she's not a particularly good one, wherein lies a lot of the problem. 

On 9/1/2016 at 8:36 AM, hello said:

Secondly - of course there have been character development moments for Daisy! Tons of them. It's just that the actress playing her doesn't have nearly the range or skill needed to convey those changes. We're just getting one-note performances from her when the character should now have the emotional nuance of a god-damned symphony.

Part of an intergalactic experiment spanning thousands of years? Mysteriously abandoned at birth in an unforgiving world? Gut-shot and left for dead before being revived by the blood of ancient aliens? Finding her parents again - only to discover they're deadly loons and having to help kill one of them and wipe the other's mind? On and on. These are moments that should have changed the performance drastically over the years, but the actress wasn't able to pull it off (and from all outward signs doesn't even know she should have been trying to pull it off).

In summary, using the much better words that Hello uses above. 

Edited October 15, 2016 by romantic idiot

[hello]

20 hours ago, romantic idiot said:

A little fun fact, Chloe Bennet had to change her Asian sounding last name (Wang) to a white sounding name in order to get roles.

Are we sure she didn't change her name because it's a euphemism for "penis"..? Because Jackie Chan, Bruce Lee, Ming Na Wen, Daniel Dae Kim, Jet Li, and Steven Yeun all seem to have gotten work without changing their Asian-sounding last names...

20 hours ago, romantic idiot said:

considering Chloe's struggle to find work because of her race before she was casted on SHIELD.

Are we sure she didn't struggle to find work simply because there were better actresses out there getting the parts instead..?

[teenj12]

Chloe Bennet explicitly stated that she wasn't getting roles because of racism in the industry. 

When POC tell you their experiences,  you should listen to them,  not deny it and find ways to excuse or sugarcoat the racism they faced. 

[hello]

1 hour ago, teenj12 said:

Chloe Bennet explicitly stated that she wasn't getting roles because of racism in the industry. 

Oh, I'm sure she believes that. But is there objective evidence to prove her claim? When ANYONE tells you their experiences, you should view their stories with measured skepticism until objective evidence either proves or denies what they've said. As they used to say, "Believe half of what you read and none of what you hear."

The only thing worse than actual racism is claiming racism where none exists. Maybe you should be more cautious on that front?

[teenj12]

43 minutes ago, hello said:

Oh, I'm sure she believes that. But is there objective evidence to prove her claim? When ANYONE tells you their experiences, you should view their stories with measured skepticism until objective evidence either proves or denies what they've said. As they used to say, "Believe half of what you read and none of what you hear."

The only thing worse than actual racism is claiming racism where none exists. Maybe you should be more cautious on that front?

In a country where Black people are routinely shot to death, Asians are denied roles in Hollywood, Mexicans are told to 'go home', and Native Americans are having their reservations exploited, I think one would have all the objective evidence they need to be able to believe a WOC when she says that she has faced racism in her career.

[Cranberry]

Okay, guys, let's refrain from implying that a POC is mistaken when they say they've faced racism.

Let's also remember to remain civil in debates. Disagreement is fine, but don't personally attack anyone here or assume motive or intent. Someone disliking a character played by a POC or thinking a specific POC is a weak actor does not automatically make that person racist.

[jhlipton]

On 10/15/2016 at 2:57 PM, hello said:

Are we sure she didn't struggle to find work simply because there were better actresses out there getting the parts instead..?

Yes.  Because there are far less competent white women who get role after role after role.

Hollywood is not, and never has been a meritocracy.

[Raja]

On 8/31/2016 at 6:51 PM, SocaShoe said:

 

Also, I have not questioned Daisy's skills. I even pointed out that she had to have skills when we first met the character. I criticize her emotional growth as a character.  We get to see Daisy shoot, run and jump. What we're not seeing is really strong emotional growth and that tends to contradict what we hear from other characters who tell us how awesome she is. And I want to see it. I want to see better characters because I believe that those characters will be sustainable.

The thing about "growth". I would submit we shouldn't be seeing growth. In a few short years she has been arrested by SHIELD. Found out she was sleeping with a Nazi wing Hydra. Was a combatant in the SHIELD versus Hydra war. Lost a best friend trying to save her in the event which gave her super powers. Found her father was a batshit insane killer. Found out her mother was an evil megalomaniac. Had her mother try to suck the very life out of her and watched her father kill her mother. Get infected by Hive's sway and even when the physical component allowing Hive to push her was removed the addiction, by another who died trying to save her the  need is still there as seen by James suffering the same fate. And then have another boyfriend push pass her on a suicide mission.

 

So shouldn't have grown at all should should be in a VA hospital treatment along with others suffering PTSD.

[hello]

On 11/13/2016 at 8:26 AM, Raja said:

So shouldn't have grown at all should should be in a VA hospital treatment along with others suffering PTSD.

Totally understand, but "growth" doesn't have to mean "positive progress". Going from not having PTSD to having it is a form of growth in the sense that the character has changed, has moved from point A to point B, and needs to deal with it. The growth isn't necessarily about positive progress as much as it is about how the character deals with change, adverse or not. I think the conversation is less about whether Daisy has PTSD more about whether Chloe Bennett could represent that change in a way that the audience could find relatable.

[teenj12]

Daisy's Smile Appreciation:

 

[Hecate7]

On 10/15/2016 at 3:55 PM, hello said:

Oh, I'm sure she believes that. But is there objective evidence to prove her claim? When ANYONE tells you their experiences, you should view their stories with measured skepticism until objective evidence either proves or denies what they've said. As they used to say, "Believe half of what you read and none of what you hear."

The only thing worse than actual racism is claiming racism where none exists. Maybe you should be more cautious on that front?

No. When people tell you their experiences, especially when they are experiences you personally have not had, you should believe them unless there is a very, very good reason not to. One way to tell if someone has privilege is if they absolutely don't believe any stories of the prejudice someone else has encountered. If you'd ever experienced it you'd know better, and you'd also know how painful it is not to be believed or to have to keep proving everything that's ever happened to you over and over.

In the case of any actress, her agent TELLS her why she wasn't cast. "You're the wrong size opposite the male. Too tall/short/fat/thin/light/dark. You're too ethnic. You're not ethnic enough. They wanted someone shorter. They wanted a blonde. They wanted a less recognizable actress. They wanted a bigger name." Agents are paid to do this and they do it quite well. If she says her ethnicity cost her roles, then you may be certain that it did.

[jhlipton]

On 10/15/2016 at 4:55 PM, hello said:

The only thing worse than actual racism is claiming racism where none exists. Maybe you should be more cautious on that front?

I don't think so.  Claiming racism doesn't get you shot, or arrested for shoplifting or denied parts for that matter.  Actual racism hurts real people in real ways. 

[Tiger]

On 4/24/2017 at 10:48 PM, jhlipton said:

I don't think so.  Claiming racism doesn't get you shot, or arrested for shoplifting or denied parts for that matter.  Actual racism hurts real people in real ways. 

And claiming someone or some action is 'racist' without actual evidence hurts whoever that claim is being made against.  

For example, many including myself couldnt stand Skye in season 1 and it had nothing to do with Chloe or Skye's race and everything to do with the actress being mediocre and the character being written as a special snowflake around whom the universe revolved.  At some point Chloe got much better and the writing for Skye did too.  

Edited April 26, 2017 by Tiger

[jhlipton]

2 hours ago, doram said:

The same people who cast Scarlett Johansenn and Tilder Swinton as Asian people and white-washed the Last Airbender, Peter Pan, Exodus, Gods of Egypt (to list from recent memory)? That's who is getting "hurt" by Chloe's - let's be blunt here - "lies" about facing racism in the industry?)

Add to the list Mission Control where David Giuntoli and Poppy Montgomery play an African-American and a Latina, respectively.