Vanessa Rousso: Hates Liars…Except Herself.

[DAngelus]

Our resident poker star/puppetmaster seems to be having a good season so far, but she certainly does manage to give her thought processes a good workout.  Not only is she always afraid of the ever-lurking "blood on my hands", but she's always looking for "reasons" she can use to sell the rest of the House on her decisions.  Which I think are called "excuses", technically.  ("Rationalizations", if she believes them herself, I suppose.)

 

One of her favorites is that she just hates liars; you could do a montage of that from the aired episodes alone.  It was her justification for backdooring Jeff, it was her rationale for being willing to cut Austin, and (moot-point dead spoiler) she tried to find a similar basis for uprooting Jason.  Rather an unusual moral stand for her, given which show she's on and her chosen profession, but she's managed to sell the rest of the house on the premise that she just HATES lying liars who lie so damn much.  "You lie to me, you're dead to me", and so on.

 

Except, of course…that's a lie.  Vanessa lies with an ease rarely seen.  It's certainly helped her game to this point, but will it continue to do so?  I'd be lying if I said I knew.

 

What I do know from my after-the-fact catch-ups in the Feeds thread is that she's sometimes referred to as "Lady MacV", a play on her poker handle of "Lady Maverick" and her obsession with "blood on my hands" to a degree reminiscent of Shakespeare's Lady MacBeth.  Someone (nashville, IIRC) even quoted the famous "Out, out damned spot" speech…but I think it's the Thane of Cawdor himself whom Vanessa often mimics, with her circular arguments before acting.

 

If it were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well 
It were done quickly: if the assassination 
Could trammel up the consequence, and catch 
With his surcease success; that but this blow
Might be the be-all and the end-all here, 

But here, upon this bank and shoal of time, 
We'ld jump the life to come. But in these cases 
We still have judgment here; that we but teach
Bloody instructions, which, being taught, return
To plague the inventor

 

So perhaps it's no surprise that Vanessa, who has some viewers thinking of medieval allusions, has allied with Austin of the "knight" fixation and Romantic Literature M.A.  She even had a medieval-themed dining room in the "Poker Princess Palace" she used to share with some other poker professionals (before she moved in with Melissa):

 

 

Yes, one of those girls is Maria Ho, who is not only a successful poker player, but a less-successful former Amazing Race contestant, getting eliminated about halfway through TAR 15.   So Jackie isn't Vanessa's first experience at living with an ex-Racer, and if Vanessa needs to get rid of her, maybe she can get the producers to come up with some sort of swimming/golf combination comp, and then she's golden.  No lie.

[Nashville]

Our resident poker star/puppetmaster seems to be having a good season so far, but she certainly does manage to give her thought processes a good workout.  Not only is she always afraid of the ever-lurking "blood on my hands", but she's always looking for "reasons" she can use to sell the rest of the House on her decisions.  Which I think are called "excuses", technically.  ("Rationalizations", if she believes them herself, I suppose.)

 

I think (a) in this context they would be considered "rationales", and (b) V doesn't really give a major flip whether or not anybody considers them of any real substance at this time. 

 

The rationales are justifications she can use - not so much now to HGs currently actively engaged in playing the game, but to Jurors on Finale Night.  Jurors want a reason to either vote for HG A or against HG B.  In the event she makes F2, Vanessa is simply building herself a portfolio of reasons to either vote for her, or against her opposition.  All Lady MacV is doing now is planting memory seeds in the heads of her fellow HGs - but time will pass between now and Finale Night, and those seeds will have some time to germinate in the Jurors' memories.  And when the F2 HGs (of which V firmly intends to be one) make their plea before the final Vote, Vanessa will have a golden opportunity to throw a mist of justifiable actions at the Jurors right before they turn their Keys....

 

I think it's the Thane of Cawdor himself whom Vanessa often mimics, with her circular arguments before acting.

 

If it were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well 

It were done quickly: if the assassination 

Could trammel up the consequence, and catch 

With his surcease success; that but this blow

Might be the be-all and the end-all here, 

But here, upon this bank and shoal of time, 

We'ld jump the life to come. But in these cases 

We still have judgment here; that we but teach

Bloody instructions, which, being taught, return

To plague the inventor

Excellent.  ;)

[RedheadZombie]

After reading a live feed post that implied Vanessa was a minority, I did a little reading up on her.  Unless being half French makes you a minority, I'm not getting the implication.  Interestingly, her Wikipedia entry doesn't mention her sexuality.  In her BB intro, I thought Vanessa stated she was bi-sexual.  Since then, she refers to herself as a lesbian, so I thought I was mistaken.  Considering she's divorced from a man, I wonder if I was right in my original belief.

[Lady Calypso]

After reading a live feed post that implied Vanessa was a minority, I did a little reading up on her.  Unless being half French makes you a minority, I'm not getting the implication.  Interestingly, her Wikipedia entry doesn't mention her sexuality.  In her BB intro, I thought Vanessa stated she was bi-sexual.  Since then, she refers to herself as a lesbian, so I thought I was mistaken.  Considering she's divorced from a man, I wonder if I was right in my original belief.

 

Well, of course I cannot speak for Vanessa at all, but if she refers herself as a lesbian, then she probably is a lesbian. Lots of people who are still in the closet date people of the opposite sex, and even get married to them and have kids. This could be like Vanessa's situation, although we don't know if she had romantic and sexual feelings toward her ex husband or not. She may even be more fluid when it comes to sexuality, so she might be higher on the Kinsey scale, like a 4 or 5.  Either way she does refer herself as a lesbian now so that is what we should take her as. 

 

I think that was me that you're referring to (tumblr makes me crazy, to be honest) and minorities are supposed to be people who don't fit in to the majority, and I believe that includes the LGBT community as well, hence why I put Vanessa under that category. 

[njbarmaid]

She had a conversation with Jackie in the HOH room once about how she always hung out with guys and because of a conservative family, suppressed any feelings/thoughts she had about females.  She said her ex was her best friend and she thought she could make it work and when it didn't they split but remained close until his passing.

 

 

OT

My child came out to me in middle school that she thought she was bi, but always dated guys in high school.  It wasn't until she got to college which had a strong LGBT community that she felt free enough to come out and is in a wonderful relationship with her partner.

 

I've tried to learn a lot in recent years about sexual orientation and gender identity to better understand my child and her partner.  

[Nashville]

OT

My child came out to me in middle school that she thought she was bi, but always dated guys in high school.  It wasn't until she got to college which had a strong LGBT community that she felt free enough to come out and is in a wonderful relationship with her partner.

 

I've tried to learn a lot in recent years about sexual orientation and gender identity to better understand my child and her partner.

Pretty close to that here, njbarmaid. My youngest struggled through middle/jr/high school and her first 2-ish years in college before "coming out" to us. Conversation went something like this:

Her: "Mom, Dad - I have something important to tell you. You may want to sit down."

Us: "Ooo-kayyyyy... what's up?"

Her: "I'll just come straight out and say this - I'm a lesbian."

Us: "Yeah - and...?"

At which point a certain degree of confusion entered the conversation....

We then had to explain we'd known she was gay since she was about 10-12, but we wanted to give her emotional room and support to process everything through without pressure until she was comfortable telling us herself.

To tell the truth, I already took it for granted - to the point when she said the "something important" bit, my first thought was that she'd messed up her car. :>

[methodwriter85]

Vanessa reminds me of Nicole from Season 2. Really good player, but also a complete and total emotional mess.

 

Every moment she seems to be breaking down.

Edited August 15, 2015 by methodwriter85

[Cutty]

[Petunia13]

She look like Janice from The Muppets

[Nashville]

She look like Janice from The Muppets

Sounds a lot like her too, when she gets in TurboTalk mode.

[DAngelus]

Vanessa reminds me of Nicole from Season 2. Really good player, but also a complete and total emotional mess.

 

Every moment she seems to be breaking down.

 

Some of it is clearly acting, though.  The question is, how much?

[peachmangosteen]

I thought that at first, too, but I'm pretty convinced now she's just a damn mess.

[Yeldarbe]

I think she looks an awful lot like Iggy Azalea...

[Nashville]

For a second I thought you meant Iggy Pop.

And I was on the verge of agreeing.

[nono]

Meh, I don't know. This show. Vanessa's just so similar to Derrick. Keeps her profession secret because it's an obvious advantage. Is older than most of the other players, most of whom aren't as invested or prepared for the game. Wears a beanie to blend in, while playing the maternal figure to everyone.

 

It just seems like CBS has resorted to manufacturing their "masterminds" in an attempt to lend the game of Big Brother more credibility than it deserves.

Edited September 17, 2015 by nono

[Petunia13]

If she was in Derricks season or vice versa no question he'd beat her he'd have had her out the door.

I'm not a Derrick fan by any means but gotta admit this. If she was up against Dan, Will, Jun. same thing she'd be schooled .

[AndreaK1041]

A few times other people have asked her vaguely about fame or her poker career and she has kept her reactions very muted, until tonight when Liz asked if she was good at poker and she looked into the camera sort of awesomely to say "fairly".

Fairly good, yes. She's the 5th highest earning female poker player *of all time*. Her crying and BB nonsense is not for me, but I think that is awesome.

[Ceeg]

A few times other people have asked her vaguely about fame or her poker career and she has kept her reactions very muted, until tonight when Liz asked if she was good at poker and she looked into the camera sort of awesomely to say "fairly".

That felt straight out of The Office. *looks at cam*

[Guest]

You'd think if she really wanted to slip by she would have also kept the law school and 'high IQ' thing quiet.  We've already seen people say they don't want to go to the end with her because 'she's a lawyer'.  

 

When someone repeatedly mentions how smart they are, it makes me wonder.

[Ceeg]

And yet Steve is in the exact same spot as Vanessa. Steve, the guy who bragged about being the only Ivy League BB contestant ever, and who told HGs that he told BB casting that he's the smartest person who's ever been on the show.

 

Steve and Vanessa are the two smartest HGs IMO, and they're in the F3 together, so I don't think it really matters about how smart they appear to other HGs. They've survived to the end.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Ceeg

[Guest]

It does still matter because if Steve thought Vanessa was no threat or vice versa, they'd be more likely to bring each other.  One of them is going to get third due to being seen as smarter and more threatening than Liz.  Of course, if either of them had downplayed their smarts more (or in Vanessa's case, at all), we don't know if they'd be where they are now.  

 

I'm not a feed watcher but Steve sure appears to be playing dumbish to me.  I think he's playing book-smart, street-idiotic, which actually makes me respect him more than Vanessa, who is playing the role of MASTERMIND, kinda poorly.  "TRUST ME.  I DID THE MATH.  I'M A LAWYER.  I'M A GENIUS."   All while glaring at you in that condescending, unbelieving way. 

[Nashville]

 When someone repeatedly mentions how smart they are, it makes me wonder.

Really? For me it tends to remove all doubt. The truly super smart people I know feel no need to advertise. They tend to do the opposite, in fact - minimize it as much as possible to avoid social ostracism.

[Guest]

Really? For me it tends to remove all doubt. The truly super smart people I know feel no need to advertise. They tend to do the opposite, in fact - minimize it as much as possible to avoid social ostracism.

Right.  And also because they're smart enough to know that being smart in one area or even many areas doesn't equal superiority, or even intellectual superiority. The more you know the more you realize you don't know.  

[call me ishmael]

If she was in Derricks season or vice versa no question he'd beat her he'd have had her out the door.

I'm not a Derrick fan by any means but gotta admit this. If she was up against Dan, Will, Jun. same thing she'd be schooled .

I think Derrick is widely overrated. Besides america's team he had a season of players who didn't want to win, they just wanted to work for Derrick. No other year would have failed to notice he was manipulating them. Even this group knew that about Vanessa. She just had enough strategy to survive.

[Eolivet]

Final post before I leave you guys alone in this forum will be a requiem for my favorite woman Big Brother player ever.

 

I loved the way Vanessa weaponized her femininity. She took every single negative stereotype about women (crying, emotional, incessant talking without listening) and used it to her advantage. She didn't play a masculine game, she played a feminine game. Instead of hiding her femininity, she used it. Intentional or not, people stayed away from nominating her until the end because they were seemingly afraid of how she would react. I know she really believed it, but I thought it was outstanding strategy, and hopefully the next step in the evolution of the woman player. I want to see women play on emotion to win money. There's such a stigma attached and it was long past time that stigma was removed.

 

I hope to one day see a woman on another reality show who takes Vanessa's strategy and uses it as strategy. Who cries all day long to the contestants and then is cold as ice in her confessionals. The ultimate final step would be that she can play up this emotional strategy and throw comps and stay safe. And also manage to, y'know, win.

 

I want the Gone Girl of women players. Vanessa was a good first step in that direction. Play into what they expect of you, and then do something unexpected.

 

(I also hope she never sets foot on Big Brother again. Even if she was invited back, she's never going to win, the show has no interest in her winning, and she has nothing more to prove to them.)

[blixie]

 

I also hope she never sets foot on Big Brother again.

 

I was with you until this! Selfishly I'd like to see her in an All Stars season, just because I love her, enjoy watching her mind work, but the only way I could see her diving back in again is if she's single when they ask her or they offer returning "all stars" *real* money to play. 

 

The only thing I agreed with Steve bout last night was Van being the best female player ever, though I think Queen Jun should probably retain that crown having WON and all, won against a group way more savvy and cut throat and HORRIBLE than Van had to square off against, w/o the kind of benefit of something like BotB, that I think allowed Van to hang back and hide. 

[Sweets McGee]

The only thing I agreed with Steve bout last night was Van being the best female player ever, though I think Queen Jun should probably retain that crown having WON and all, won against a group way more savvy and cut throat and HORRIBLE than Van had to square off against, w/o the kind of benefit of something like BotB, that I think allowed Van to hang back and hide. 

I loved Vanessa but I don't think she's the greatest female player of all time. I would probably rank Jun, Danielle Reyes  and Maggie ahead of her. But Vanessa might be the 4th on the Mount Rushmore of Women Who Have Played Big Brother. 

[Ceeg]

I think the reason why I personally view Vanessa as the best female BB player (or possibly 2nd to Danielle) is that she played both a manipulation/strategic game and a comp beast game. And I can't really remember any other woman who did that. Maggie won 1 HOH and her game required very little strategy, as the line in the house was drawn extremely early. The best thing Maggie did was keep her alliance together as a block, and that's it IMO. Jun had a great (the best) floater strategy, but never really excelled in comps. Janelle and Rachel were comp beasts, but weren't master strategists.

 

Vanessa, however, did both. She consistently put herself in the best strategic positions possible, she fought her way out of holes, and she won crucial comps. Danielle is the only other female player who I could see an argument for being "better" and that's simply based on her getting runner-up in BB3 and top 6 in BB7, so she has more ammo on her resume.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Ceeg

[Sweets McGee]

I think what Maggie did that is underrated is what Vanessa didn't do and that's get people who were loyal to her no matter what. Yeah, that whole Cappy & Maggie worship was really odd that season but people were falling on their swords for her. Jennifer - "I sacrificed myself for the group." WTF? And Ivette taking Maggie to the Final 2 because her Janelle hate and/or Maggie love was so strong. Vanessa just didn't have anyone like that. Not that she necessarily could've controlled that - they have to play with the house guests they're stuck with and maybe there was just not opportunity for that. She was third wheel with various couples and was in a position where she had to win the final HOH. Sucks. She really was my favorite BB player in years.

[Ceeg]

Yeah but Maggie's cult also benefited from the duo twist too. Maggie's people were all weak-minded koolaid drinkers, but when the lines were drawn and it was the Sovereign Six vs. The Nerd Herd, both groups had something that Vanessa had no way of having, which is that within their alliances, there were duos that were 1000% loyal to each other with no chance of betrayal or backstabbing. April never had to worry about Jen betraying her, Ivette never had to worry about Beau betraying her, etc. Maggie's partner left early, but she still had an alliance full of duos. The S6 also fucked up when they put up James and Sarah, but that's another story, which I blame on the S6 being idiots.

 

But also, if Ivette had picked Janelle rather than Maggie, she would have lost too. I remember reading some juror interviews afterwards, and the Nerd Herd were so cultish that they said they would never have voted for Ivette if she'd backstabbed Maggie like that, because The Friendship was built on trust or whatever.

 

I guess I just don't respect Maggie's game that much because it was all so weird and cultish, and a large portion of it hinged on the complete and utter hatred of Janelle. And also, I have a lot less respect for one's gameplay in seasons where there are two huge alliances that just pick each other apart week-by-week, depending on who wins HOH. In BB6, there were no other alliances, besides the main 2. In BB17, there were so many alliances, I lost track. There had to have been at least 20 alliances, if not 30. And it's not because Vanessa (or anyone else) wasn't skilled enough to created a Nerd Herd-esque alliance, but that the game has changed so much since BB6 that it would be almost impossible IMO. It's just a lot more interesting and difficult to navigate your way through a house full of 20 alliances with strangers rather than a house full of two alliances and pairs of RL friends.

 

So, while I can acknowledge that Maggie obviously played a good game, since she was the winner, I still don't view her as some huge strategic mastermind, since her win was built around a duo twist and two alliances trading blows. JMO.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Ceeg

[Sweets McGee]

Good point on the duos twist playing a factor. That goes with what I said where they have to play with the houseguests they're stuck with. In another season, Vanessa might've won or might've gotten smoked. But she did amazingly for being in the crosshairs much of the season.

[blixie]

 

is that she played both a manipulation/strategic game and a comp beast game. And I can't really remember any other woman who did that.

 

Are you leaving out Nicole just to piss me off?! Nicole's season was only 70 something days, and she won 2 of 10 competitions (both were crucial wins), but her Alliance (Kent, Hardy, Bunky) won 6 out of 10, and as Boogie just pointed out the competitions were thinks like throw a cd on a floating paper plate, so competitions just werent as relevant to the game then. I think Nicole did play a strategic/manipulative game, and she was a 'comp beast' in as much as anyone that season was, second only to Hardy as the only person with multiple HoH's. So, IDK. 

 

I just overall have trouble comparing between the seasons because I think each is it's own unique beast, and you have to evaluate the player relative not to other women in other seasons, but how well they played the game in front of them their season, in that case I think Danielle Reyes will always be #1, followed by Nicole, and than Van (going out at F3 because she wasn't able to get Steve to take her is big hit to her resume). In terms of who I liked the best Nicole would be 1. Van a very close #2, but I only watched about a half of the final third of S3, so I'll never be as invested in what Danielle achieved as I am in having watched Nicole/Van and also Jun/Allison. It's still so manddening that Jun is the only one out of those five amazing players to have WON. 

 

UGH. Double UGH.

[peachmangosteen]

I can't even give Vanessa much credit for her game because she is basically saying she didn't play it. Her tears weren't even strategy, she just believes all her own bullshit so she was actually super distraught when people weren't undyingly loyal to her.

[Cutty]

Oh for fucks sake, Vanessa.

 

What do you think you like more: saying the word "deal" or crying?
 
It's a really close toss up because I don't know if you got the memo, but I'm a human being, ... with flaws, and hormones, once a month especially (laughs). Let me tell you, all those cryings, I bet you could time them and they are 28 days apart.

 

Was your vote for Liz to win a bitter vote against Steve?

No, absolutely not. I judged them on different scales. Steve came into the game with a certain set of information and skills that Liz did not come into the game with. Based on my expectations for Steve's performance, he fell short. Based on my expectations for Liz's performance, she exceeded my expectations. I think Liz is very underrated. She's very strategic and would often floor me. Unbelievably underrated. She and her sister were the two people I played the purest loyalty game with.

 
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/big-brother-17-vanessa-rousso-826870?utm_source=twitter

Edited September 24, 2015 by Cutty

[Cutty]

Listened to Vanessa's interview on EW. Few things:

 

-her and Liz made a deal that they would vote for each other in the F2. 

-also mentioned what she said above about her vote. That Liz exceeded her expectations, etc.

-says the only thing her girlfriend has told her about things is that Austin is not her friend. Yikes.

[Ceeg]

Do you have a link to that audio interview?

[Cutty]

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/09/24/big-brother-final-3-steve-liz-vanessa-insidetv-podcast

[SiobhanJW]

Listened to Vanessa's interview on EW. Few things:

-her and Liz made a deal that they would vote for each other in the F2.

-also mentioned what she said above about her vote. That Liz exceeded her expectations, etc.

-says the only thing her girlfriend has told her about things is that Austin is not her friend. Yikes.

Ooooo gotta listen to this interview. I follow her girlfriend on Twitter she was very nice to fans and about most of the Houseguests and their comments about Vanessa. But you could tell she was NOT an Austin fan. I think she even said she would make that known to Vanessa. So not surprised there.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

I just watched Vanessa's backyard interview with Jeff. I am not saying this jokingly or to be mean, she must have been high on something. It could be all the adrenaline but it was almost uncomfortable to watch. And the things she was saying, blaming her period for crying? Yikes.

 

I can't even give Vanessa much credit for her game because she is basically saying she didn't play it. 

 

The reason I don't give her credit is precisely this.

 

Did she play Big Brother? More than anyone in the house. But was it a good strategic game? Heck no!

 

Playing hard doesn't equate, playing well. 

Edited September 24, 2015 by Deputy Deputy CoS

[Ceeg]

I thought the EW interview was pretty good and Vanessa came off really well. Not bitter, she and Steve are cool, she respects the decision he made, she thinks she would have beaten him in the F2. The most interesting thing, to me, is that she was surprised and disappointed about Austin being an immature pissbaby. I guess she thought he'd get over it after the initial blindside. It's weird going from seeing these people 24/7 to not knowing anything that's happening at all BTS. I want to know if Austin tries to kiss Vanessa's ass in the days to come, since she's a high roller in Vegas. I think Mel will put a stop to that, though. 

 

Did she play Big Brother. More than anyone in the house. But was it a good strategic game? Heck.

 

Playing hard doesn't equate, playing well. 

Except she played well enough to win the game. It all came down to one single question about predicting something Johnny Mac said. If Steve and Vanessa had guessed opposite answers, she'd have the $500k check. In all the post-show interviews, I think Jackie is the only HG who said she was rooting for Steve to win. Everyone else said Vanessa. So even though she evicted everyone, they all respect her game enough to think she should have won. If that's not playing well, I don't know what is.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Ceeg

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

Except she played well enough to win the game. 

 

I was under the impression Steve won.

[Ceeg]

I guess you skipped the rest of my post, where I said that the winner came down to answering one question.

 

My point was that nothing Vanessa did strategically cost her the game, other than being too good. Steve didn't take Vanessa because he knew he'd lose to her. Because she was better than him at everything. Vanessa lost the game because she answered a question about John incorrectly. She didn't lose because for 90+ days she played a shitty game. If her game was so shitty, Steve would have stuck with their F2 and taken her with him.

[pennben]

I'm not sure where to put this, but I'm going to put it here. I can't imagine being cut off from the world all these months.  I know that they gave them a few tidbits, but there is so much that happens. For instance, a couple of nights ago on the feeds Vanessa was talking about proposing to Mel.  It stopped me short a bit, because when Vanessa went into the house, gay marriage only had a foothold in a fair number of states.  Sure, it seemed like it would gain ground, and likely that the Supreme Court would strike down bans, but one never knows.  And when it affects something so personal, it has to be terrifying to lose the fight. 

 

Now, she is out of the house and it is the law of the land.  She missed an amazing advance in the civil rights in this country. 

 

I know nothing can probably be more profound than missing 9/11, but I always wonder what it is like to get out and catch up on really all that happened while you were gone.

[Nashville]

I can't even give Vanessa much credit for her game because she is basically saying she didn't play it. Her tears weren't even strategy, she just believes all her own bullshit so she was actually super distraught when people weren't undyingly loyal to her.

Swear to god. Here the whole time I thought she was a master strategist - making F2 deals with EVERYBODY in the F4, while simultaneously wailing to same about how her word and integrity are EVERYTHING to her - heck, I thought she was doing a masterful job of snowing everybody. But it appears she was snowing herself as well.

I just watched Vanessa's backyard interview with Jeff. I am not saying this jokingly or to be mean, she was must have been high on something. It could be all the adrenaline but it was almost uncomfortable to watch. And the things she was saying, blaming her period for crying? Yikes.

If Vanessa had had her period every time she went all Cue Waterworks! ™ on us, she'd have died of hypovolemic shock before August.

.

Playing hard doesn't equate, playing well.

Oh, for... whatever you do, do NOT - I repeat, do NOT - intimate in any way, shape, form or fashion WHATSOEVER that V played the game too hard, ok?

This is for your own protection.

ETA:

I guess you skipped the rest of my post, where I said that the winner came down to answering one question.

 

You mean, the question V answered wrong? Yeah, we got that. ;>

My point was that nothing Vanessa did strategically cost her the game, other than being too good. Steve didn't take Vanessa because he knew he'd lose to her. Because she was better than him at everything. Vanessa lost the game because she answered a question about John incorrectly. She didn't lose because for 90+ days she played a shitty game. If her game was so shitty, Steve would have stuck with their F2 and taken her with him.

You're absolutely right. In a game which depends upon four primary skills - physical, social, memory and strategic - she played the hell outta one. Heck, three of them, even. But she lost on the social. V answered the way SHE - not Johnny Mac - would have answered, and it cost her. Big.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Nashville

[Cutty]

I don't agree with the idea Vanessa did nothing strategically wrong. If she did nothing wrong she would've been in final 3 with two people who would have taken her to F2 - see Dan, Derrick. We've been over this but it's why I don't mind the final part being crapshooty. Strategic and social game become the most important factor, which is ultimately what the game is all about.

Her blind spot towards Steve did her in. Despite what she said to Julie she thought he was taking her to F2. That was a miscalculation.

A friend of mine who is an episode only viewer thought she should've let Liz win part 1. The idea being part 2 is mental and she had a better chance at beating Steve than Liz (though Liz was only a few minutes behind). Probably too risky, but it's an interesting idea.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Cutty

[SiobhanJW]

I don't agree with the idea Vanessa did nothing strategically wrong. If she did nothing wrong she would've been in final 3 with two people who would have taken her to F2 - see Dan, Derrick. We've been over this but it's why I don't mind the final part being crapshooty. Strategic and social game become the most important factor, which is ultimately what the game is all about.

Her blind spot towards Steve did her in. Despite what she said to Julie she thought he was taking her to F2. That was a miscalculation.

A friend of mine who is an episode only viewer thought she should've let Liz win part 1. The idea being part 2 is mental and she had a better chance at beating Steve than Liz (though Liz was only a few minutes behind). Probably too risky, but it's an interesting idea.

I actually thought the same thing. She should of let Liz take it and then tried to win Part 2. I thought that was a miscalculation on her part. But I guess you just don't know what it's going to be.

I thought she played a fabulous game and as a fan who has watched every season I have no problem saying she's one of my favorite players and in my opinion one of the best.

[Ceeg]

I don't think I ever said Vanessa did nothing wrong, strategically. Just that she played the game WELL and she played the game better than everyone else this season (and in other seasons, but that's my opinion and is obviously very subjective). But ask Steve, he'll tell you the same thing. If Steve thought he played a superior game to her, he wouldn't have been agonizing over his "I evict you Vanessa" speech for weeks. He's been plotting Vanessa's eviction for a long, long time, because he knows he wouldn't have beaten her in a F2 situation. 

 

I think Vanessa made some mistakes, but I also don't think she could have done much differently to get the win. She put herself in the best possible situation, for her game. She just came out on the wrong side of a coin flip comp. But, as far as ensuring a F2 with everyone, I just don't think it was possible with the amount of blood she had on her hands . You can't fly under the radar when you've been responsible for evicting 12 out of 14 houseguests. The fact that she even got Liz to agree to a F2 with her should be a testament to her skills, because under no circumstances should Liz have thought taking Vanessa would have been a good idea.

 

I actually thought the same thing. She should of let Liz take it and then tried to win Part 2. I thought that was a miscalculation on her part. But I guess you just don't know what it's going to be.

 

When she was thrown against the wall in the comp, she said she knew she'd fucked up her neck (she actually heard ringing in her ears), and she knew she'd already crossed a line that she wouldn't be able to get back over. Because she messed up her neck, she thought she'd have no chance at winning R2, due to the historically physical nature of it.

I'm not sure where to put this, but I'm going to put it here. I can't imagine being cut off from the world all these months.  I know that they gave them a few tidbits, but there is so much that happens. For instance, a couple of nights ago on the feeds Vanessa was talking about proposing to Mel.  It stopped me short a bit, because when Vanessa went into the house, gay marriage only had a foothold in a fair number of states.  Sure, it seemed like it would gain ground, and likely that the Supreme Court would strike down bans, but one never knows.  And when it affects something so personal, it has to be terrifying to lose the fight. 

 

Now, she is out of the house and it is the law of the land.  She missed an amazing advance in the civil rights in this country. 

I was curious about this too. She was telling Steve and Liz a couple of days ago that when she went in the house, gay marriage was legal in Nevada, but those laws get overturned a lot, so it might not still be legal when she gets out. I was like, aww if you only knew, IT'S LEGAL ERRYWHERE. So I'm sure that was a nice thing to find out after 90 days of hell.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Ceeg

[Nashville]

Her blind spot towards Steve did her in. Despite what she said to Julie she thought he was taking her to F2. That was a miscalculation.

This is the particular brand of hypocrisy with which I have a problem.

• Lying flat in JMac's face about taking him to F2? No problem. Goes with the territory. JMac fully acknowledged and accepted that with equanimity, along with unabashedly owning up to the fact he was lying through his teeth as well.
• Lying to Steve about the same? Ditto.
• But then - V getting all butthurty because Steve had the GALL to lie to HER!? WHAAAAT??? THE NERVE!!! WHERE IS HIS LOYALTY, AFTER ALL SHE'S DONE FOR HIM!?!? HOW DARE HE!!!???

Feh.

ETA: whoops, almost forgot - annnnd Cue Waterworks!™

You know, I think I'm gonna miss that. Just a little.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Nashville

[Cutty]

Ultimately it was the fault of her alliance structure that she didn't really have a solid F2. Not necessarily her fault, just the way it happened. I can't think of a F3 scenario where two people from her alliance would've both taken her. Maybe F3 with Steve and Austin? I still doubt Steve takes her.

Looking back I wonder if she would've been better off evicting Steve instead of Austin and tried to go to F2 with JMac.

She played the game brilliantly. I couldn't stand watching her and I can't stand some of the stuff she's saying in her interviews but there's no denying she killed it. I'd put her among the best female players. Maggie and Jun are still the best because they won but she's right there along with Danielle.

[blixie]

 

I think Vanessa made some mistakes, but I also don't think she could have done much differently to get the win.

 

It was tricky, but I think she could have and should have put the same amount of...effort into managing her Steve relationship that she put into her Austin relationship. Steve played into her megolomania of being the Renfield to Van's all knowing game Vampire, Best Player in the Universe, and she let that vibe stay in place. Where as she allowed and encouraged Austin to feel like her equal/partner in all three alliances (F2, Scamper, Sixth Sense)  they had with each other right up to the minute she booted him. Part of that was a strategic decision to downplay how allied Steve-Van were to each other, but the effect was that weren't that strongly allied to each other! That to me though is not a Strategic failure, but SOCIAL game failure. 

 

I think the biggest strategic failure was conceding the decision of which twin to vote out to...the twins, and standing pat at their landing on Liz, rather than working them back to Julia, but she was convinced that didn't matter. I think it did, it gave her more flexibility going into the last couple of weeks, where she at least had a chance of ending up in F3 where both sides would take her to F2. Austin + Julia >  Steve + Liz > Austin + Liz. Of course JMac could have won that HoH and she'd be in the same situation, but at least she's got a shot at getting rid of him too w/F4 veto.

 

I was never as confident about Van's game after she decided Liz was good as Julia to keep around, and didn't effect her long game. I will probably never really get the Skittles math or strategic logic there. 

 

 

Looking back I wonder if she would've been better off evicting Steve instead of Austin and tried to go to F2 with JMac.

 

No, he wouldn't have taken Van any more than Steve would have, he said that many times, he was going to evict her the first chance he got. Austin and Julia (and obviously Liz) were the only people who could legit be swayed I think to take her given their beliefs about Jury and how she couldn't win. From what Van knew or believed at the time evicting Steve only works out better IMO, if Liz isn't around. But she was so Austin had to go. She knew that was a big gamble,and she'd have to win out if she went that way. And lo behold she didn't win out. 

Edited September 24, 2015 by blixie