A Place For Questions & Educational Links

[janedi]

On 2/2/2018 at 7:22 PM, Scarlett45 said:

Well I would think cis girls are very different in how they experience sexual feelings. I’m a cis gendered heterosexual woman, but when you say “flushes and tingles” to me that codes as ROMANTIC feelings, sexual feelings tend to manifest as my heart beating faster and blood rushing to my gentials, vaginal lubrication etc the two are distinct even as a teen (I’m 32 so it wasn’t that long ago). 

I do think cis girls are conditioned to think of the two as intertwined although they may not always be.

I do wonder how she would describe attraction. 

I would think Jazz experiences attraction the way pre-pubescent kids have crushes. So there probably is the butterflies and the flushes, but no sexual arousal involved. Jazz said herself she has never felt sexual feelings. 

[Caracoa1]

Is Jazz considered sterile now that she has been on blockers and hormones now for approximately 5 to 6 years?  I know it was important for Greg and Jeanette that Jazz pass as female and stop male puberty at the first sign but I think they are now dealing with the consequences of that decision with her lack of "workable material" to make a vagina and her immaturity.

[ClareWalks]

28 minutes ago, Caracoa1 said:

Is Jazz considered sterile now that she has been on blockers and hormones now for approximately 5 to 6 years?  I know it was important for Greg and Jeanette that Jazz pass as female and stop male puberty at the first sign but I think they are now dealing with the consequences of that decision with her lack of "workable material" to make a vagina and her immaturity.

I believe she is sterile because the testicles start to produce sperm in puberty, so if she never entered puberty she would never have developed any sperm.

[kicotan]

Never mind.  I apologize for any misunderstandings.

I started to respond to possibilities and just gave up because its far too complicated and I've neither a dog in the fight nor the energy to train it.

Best wishes to Jazz, I hope everything works out for her.

Edited February 11, 2018 by kicotan
Surrender

[possibilities]

Jazz has the estrogen of a pubescent girl. The blockers block male puberty via testosterone, if I'm not mistaken, but clearly they don't prevent her from developing along female lines.

I have never heard any trans person say they had no libido, so I think any speculation about what Jazz feels and why should be limited to her own testimony, and may not have as much to do with physical development as with things like her social anxiety, which arguably could be secondary to her dysphoria. Her surgery could help with the dysphoria and thus the anxiety she may feel about the physical aspects of sex. She doesn't want to deal with her genitals right now.

Actually, lots of women are attracted to people because of their personalities. The mind as the most powerful organ of attraction is a common concept. I just don't think we can know what's going on with Jazz only from guessing off the crumbs the show has given us, and there is a lot more info available about trans people in general that should factor into any conclusions about what blockers or other medical interventions do or don't do about sexuality or libido, entirely separate from how Jazz is developing as an individual.

[Visaman666]

On 02/02/2018 at 11:11 AM, CousinAmy said:

I wonder if Jazz has any sexual feeling when she sees an attractive guy or an attractive girl? (Of course by attractive I mean handsome, beautiful, hunky, etc.) If she is getting female hormones, does she have the same sensations as a cis teenage girl? I'm not asking which one she prefers, just if she gets those flushes and tingles that I got when I had crushes in high school. (I'm 68, those flushes and crushes are very sparse these days.) 

Jazz has declared to be a lesbian.

[Visaman666]

On 30/01/2018 at 7:20 PM, doodlebug said:

Brought over from an episode thread.  While the peritoneum is well innervated, those nerves would be cut and then would have to regenerate after the neovagina was constructed.  Anyone who has had skin grafting or other plastic surgery where nerve endings needed to regenerate can attest to the fact that sensation is usually markedly lessened because the nerve endings never completely re-form.  I expect it would be the same with a neovagina lined with peritoneum and that most of the peritoneal nerve endings would die and not re-connect to the nervous system.

Bowers is a gynecologist and plastic surgeon, specializing in sex change operations, not a family. physician. I looked into Bower's practice when contemplating surgery options. 

Bowers is trans, as well, and had a TV show called Sex Change Hospital.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Visaman666

[Visaman666]

On 11/02/2018 at 10:53 AM, possibilities said:

Jazz has the estrogen of a pubescent girl. The blockers block male puberty via testosterone, if I'm not mistaken, but clearly they don't prevent her from developing along female lines.

I have never heard any trans person say they had no libido.

Oh, there is a tonne of them on Redditt. Mostly they just want their pennii  cut off. They are pleading for someone, anyone to cut them off. I wish I was kidding, but I'm not.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Visaman666

[JocelynCavanaugh]

3 hours ago, Visaman666 said:

Jazz has declared to be a lesbian.

As of this season of the show, Jazz identifies as pansexual. 

PSA: the Latin plural of penis is penes, not “penii. “ (Just a personal peeve because people like to put “ii” on the end of every Latinate word and I have to get some use out of my 6 years of studying Classics.) The English plural is penises. 

[CousinAmy]

4 hours ago, Visaman666 said:

Jazz has declared to be a lesbian.

That's exactly not what I asked. I'll be more clear: does she get sexually aroused at the sight of, or being around, an attractive person? Since she is taking what I assume is a combination of hormones, I wanted to know if she has the sexual feelings that a cis teenager has. She doesn't seem to. She seems to want to date for the good of the show, not because she has feelings for any of her obviously carefully selected "dates."

[PrincessPurrsALot]

MOD NOTE

Jazzers,

A reminder, this is the Questions and Educational links thread.  This was set up to allow posters to ask questions and get answers from persons who have some experience in these areas.  

This is not the let's debate Jazz's experience thread.  We know it can be a hard line to distinguish, but we are getting off on many Jazzy Jazz Jazz paths.  If it was discussed during an episode, head on over to that thread.  

Thanks!

Your kitty mod @PrincessPurrsALot and your snack cracker mod @17wheatthins

[Visaman666]

6 hours ago, CousinAmy said:

That's exactly not what I asked. I'll be more clear: does she get sexually aroused at the sight of, or being around, an attractive person? Since she is taking what I assume is a combination of hormones, I wanted to know if she has the sexual feelings that a cis teenager has. She doesn't seem to. She seems to want to date for the good of the show, not because she has feelings for any of her obviously carefully selected "dates."

Ok seriously this time. The blockers block any kind of sexual feelngs. Blockers weren't meant to be used forever, just a year ir two. I was on Spirolactone for a few weeks, and it shut down my ability to have an errection. I told my endocrinologist that I was stopping the Spirolactone. Using blockers and Spiro is a relativity new procedure, so nobody knows what effect it has on the body in the long term yet. The procedure had been just to use Estrogen, but in massive amounts.  

 

This is why Dr. Bowers was opposed to Jazz having the operation before experiencing an orgasm, because once it's done Jazz will never have one. A lot of trans people are quite pleased by that prospect BTW.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Visaman666

[stacyasp]

6 hours ago, Visaman666 said:

Ok seriously this time. The blockers block any kind of sexual feelngs. Blockers weren't meant to be used forever, just a year ir two. I was on Spirolactone for a few weeks, and it shut down my ability to have an errection. I told my endocrinologist that I was stopping the Spirolactone. Using blockers and Spiro is a relativity new procedure, so nobody knows what effect it has on the body in the long term yet. The procedure had been just to use Estrogen, but in massive amounts.  

 

This is why Dr. Bowers was opposed to Jazz having the operation before experiencing an orgasm, because once it's done Jazz will never have one. A lot of trans people are quite pleased by that prospect BTW.

Why would a trans person be pleased by the prospect of never having that experience?

[TwirlyGirly]

Just going to put this here: Embracing a child when they come out as transgender can be a matter of life and death.

And this: Every Single Family in the World Is a Nontraditional Family'

Edited March 10, 2018 by TwirlyGirly
Added second article link

[SunnyBeBe]

Without being too technical, I thought that this show didn't fully cover what a transgender female would expect after transition.  It seemed that the professionals encouraged Jazz to explore sexuality, as if that would be possible. She was not interested at all.  I didn't know that this is common.    But, with Lost in Transition, it was explained by most all the professionals that the libido practically disappears.  I'm not sure if Jazz or her parents fully understood what it meant for her future.  Maybe, they felt it was too much information or too personal.  

[Crazy Bird Lady]

11 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Without being too technical, I thought that this show didn't fully cover what a transgender female would expect after transition.  It seemed that the professionals encouraged Jazz to explore sexuality, as if that would be possible. She was not interested at all.  I didn't know that this is common.    But, with Lost in Transition, it was explained by most all the professionals that the libido practically disappears.  I'm not sure if Jazz or her parents fully understood what it meant for her future.  Maybe, they felt it was too much information or too personal.  

Certainly, adolescence has been extremely difficult for Jazz. It's sad that she has battled depression and even suicidal urges. Since I'm a 'normal' heterosexual, myself, I really have no idea what that was like for Jazz, nor do I know if "bottom surgery" will result in her becoming a happier person, or not.

I do hope so.

[gingerella]

10 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Without being too technical, I thought that this show didn't fully cover what a transgender female would expect after transition.  It seemed that the professionals encouraged Jazz to explore sexuality, as if that would be possible. She was not interested at all.  I didn't know that this is common.    But, with Lost in Transition, it was explained by most all the professionals that the libido practically disappears.  I'm not sure if Jazz or her parents fully understood what it meant for her future.  Maybe, they felt it was too much information or too personal.  

Yes but it seems very different if one is talking about an adult transitioning and perhaps being confused about which gender they want to now be sexual with, compared to Jazz, who was a teenager who claimed to have never had an orgasm, so IIRC, the doctors wanted her to experiment on herself so that she knew what sexual feelings and orgasm felt like...unless I’m misremembering?

[gingerella]

3 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I think you are remembering correctly, but, I never got the idea that sex was pretty much not going to be a part of a transgender woman's life, like it was portrayed on this other show. I really hope that the medical experts explained that, so the consent was truly informed. 

I'm wondering though if from what you got from that other show was more about an adult being confused and just not wanting to deal with sex until they had fully transitioned. I haven't heard anything about trans people having no sex after transitioning...that seems weird, why would you go to all that trouble of transitioning to never have sex again? BTW, that other show I found very difficult to watch, I couldnt make it through a full episode and stopped watching because it was so painful to see how difficult this journey was for adults...completely different to Jazz's show for sure!

[SunnyBeBe]

7 minutes ago, gingerella said:

I'm wondering though if from what you got from that other show was more about an adult being confused and just not wanting to deal with sex until they had fully transitioned. I haven't heard anything about trans people having no sex after transitioning...that seems weird, why would you go to all that trouble of transitioning to never have sex again? BTW, that other show I found very difficult to watch, I couldnt make it through a full episode and stopped watching because it was so painful to see how difficult this journey was for adults...completely different to Jazz's show for sure!

GREAT question.  I wondered the same thing, but, apparently, the hormones turn your libido to zero or that's what we were led to believe in that show from medical professionals. This is regarding trans women, not trans men. I wish that someone would provide more information, but, from that show which featured transgender women, it was conveyed that the libido was not going to be something that remained, due to the hormones or lack thereof for these females.  And, it would only be exacerbated after bottom surgery.  I'm no expert, but, I would welcome more information, if anyone has it.  

Here's a piece that I found has some info on the issue.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_hormone_therapy_(male-to-female)

[gingerella]

9 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

GREAT question.  I wondered the same thing, but, apparently, the hormones turn your libido to zero or that's what we were led to believe in that show from medical professionals. This is regarding trans women, not trans men. I wish that someone would provide more information, but, from that show which featured transgender women, it was conveyed that the libido was not going to be something that remained, due to the hormones or lack thereof for these females.  And, it would only be exacerbated after bottom surgery.  I'm no expert, but, I would welcome more information, if anyone has it.  

Here's a piece that I found has some info on the issue.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_hormone_therapy_(male-to-female)

I wonder if @J. Matazz is stil around, perhaps she can enlighten us...?

[J. Matazz]

9 hours ago, gingerella said:

I wonder if @J. Matazz is stil around, perhaps she can enlighten us...?

Sure am! Been busy, some curious intell of late, but here's my experience.

Hormones didn't change that drive at all, and while there was a learning curve to relearn NY body post surgery of about a year and a few months, there absolutely is still a drive, and I'd say better than it was than with just hormones, no surgery, because I can look at my body in that specific respect, and not feel absolute disgust. That what is there is right, and is synchronous and at peace, accord with what is comfortable.

That said, I never did dating or anything or the like until after SRS because I felt that degree of disconguency between my body and myself. With surgery now? No longer an issue there, but it does remind me I need to get in better physical shape! So no, in my lifetime, having no drive at all is absolutely not the case. But the moment does need to be just right. What causes that for me at any given time is unknown but hey.

[gingerella]

1 hour ago, 17wheatthins said:

Jazzers, can we please remember to use this thread for media pertaining to Jazz and her family and post our general questions/answers in the appropriate thread?

Thank you all so much for having such interesting discourse about a topic which many of us have never experienced. 

-17WT

Maybe you could move our posts related to this to that thread? Thanks!

 

@J. Matazz, thank you so much for sharing that experience with us! I thought as much...So glad you feel 'you' now!

[TwirlyGirly]

On 12/16/2018 at 10:14 AM, Honey said:

A quote from your article.

 

  Hide contents

"When I was 2 years old, I went up to my Mom and asked her "When is the good fairy going to come with her magic wand, and change my penis into a vagina?" Said Jazz.

I don't believe for even 1 second that she actually said this to her Mother.  Do you know ANY 2 year olds who even think about penises and vaginas?

If one truly is gender dysphoric, then yes - noticing and verbalizing the genitalia one has is not the genitalia one should have is common in very young children. According to my research, this begins roughly around age 2 in most trans children (as opposed to children who are gender non-conforming).

On 12/23/2018 at 1:13 PM, Fostersmom said:

<snip>

Don't get me wrong, I do think she is trans and has always wanted to be a girl [...] <snip>

Perhaps a bit nit-picky, but it's important to make a distinction between a child who says they want to be a girl (or boy, if they were assigned female at birth), and a child who says they are a girl (or boy, if assigned female at birth). This is an important distinction, and one of the criteria used in the diagnosis of gender dysphoria. Children who say they are the gender opposite of the one assigned at birth are more likely to be transgender; those who say they want to be the gender opposite the one assigned at birth may, in fact, be gender non-conforming.

On 12/25/2018 at 1:11 AM, possibilities said:

I think different families handle these things in different ways. When my brother was born, I was present while my mother changed his diapers, and I saw everything. I was 4 years old, but I'm sure it would have been the same if I'd been younger. And we were always given the facts, the terminology, and so on, and encouraged to ask questions. I got the "where do babies come from?" speech when my mother was pregnant, so I knew that boys and girls had different parts, and what they were called, even before my brother was born.

I also knew kids who had picture books showing how it all worked.

I'm sure a lot of families are way more circumspect, but it's not surprising to me at all that Jazz might have frank knowledge of these things. Especially for trans kids, who have dysphoria, she may have been asking questions and trying to communicate her concerns at a very early age.

The recommendation now is for parents to use accurate anatomical terms for body parts (including genitalia) with their children from birth, as opposed to "cutsy" terms such as "peepee" or "tinkler", etc. This is so if a child is sexually molested, they will be able to more accurately describe exactly what happened to them to the investigating authorities.

On 12/25/2018 at 10:04 PM, princelina said:

<snip> Dysphoria means that they are not seeing what is really there, and with any other type of dysphoria the mental/psychological issue is dealt with. <snip>

Dysphoria: "is a profound state of unease or dissatisfaction. In a psychiatric context, dysphoria may accompany depression, anxiety, or agitation. [...] Common reactions to dysphoria include emotional distress; in some cases, even physical distress. The opposite state of mind is known as euphoria."

Gender Dysphoria: "is the distress a person experiences as a result of the sex and gender they were assigned at birth. In this case, the assigned sex and gender do not match the person's gender identity, and the person is transgender. Evidence from studies of twins suggest that people who identify with a gender different from their assigned sex may experience such distress not only due to psychological or behavioral causes, but also biological ones related to their genetics or exposure to hormones before birth."

 

10 hours ago, J. Matazz said:

Just saying, personally speaking, my memories go back to when I was two of the fact I was female. Don't find that especially surprising. 

<snip> I just said, "Well, I'm a girl." I recall it like having a red delicious apple for lunch that day. But...I do tend to remember literally everything!

 

Jazz and Jeanette have been consistent in telling me this as Jazz's story two on two about the fairy and genitalia. As such, I have no reason not to believe them, intra and interpersonally. Fits the timeline. The only thing, I feel might be different is the exact phrasing, but that's semantical contrasted with the underlying, independent sense of one's self, personally.

Exactly what the research and diagnostic criteria says; "I am a girl" versus "I want to be a girl". Despite being assigned male at birth, you've known you're female from the time you were quite young.

 

Although I'm cisgender, it makes sense to me a child who knows their gender is not the one assigned at birth would be focused on the outward physical traits (genitalia) they have from the genitalia they should have at a very young age; much more so than cisgender child would be. 

[CousinAmy]

I can understand that a two-year-old might have an idea of whether they are a boy or girl, but "the good fairy" and its powers is definitely not something innate - tooth fairy, Easter bunny are learned concepts, either from parents or another older person. What would lead a toddler to think that there was a good fairy that swapped out body parts?

[ClareWalks]

My son did speech therapy from 2-3 years old and I remember they said being able to answer "are you a boy or a girl? is an important milestone question for that age range. I wondered if transgender children would be considered incorrect on the matter (from a speech/language perspective) if they answered differently than what was expected. Unfortunately I didn't ask the therapist about it, but I should have.

[TwirlyGirly]

1 hour ago, CousinAmy said:

I can understand that a two-year-old might have an idea of whether they are a boy or girl, but "the good fairy" and its powers is definitely not something innate - tooth fairy, Easter bunny are learned concepts, either from parents or another older person. What would lead a toddler to think that there was a good fairy that swapped out body parts?

I was born with a disability and have never been able to walk unaided. I distinctly remember being *very* young and asking Santa if he could bring Rudolph to me for Christmas, so that Rudolph could sprinkle me with his magic mojo which would naturally enable me to walk! Did anyone ever suggest to me Rudolph might have this power? Nope. But children's early years are filled with magical myths; I figured Rudolph must have magical powers because he was a reindeer that could fly! So of course he could use that same magic to enable me to walk! IDK why I thought Rudolph was a better bet than Santa himself, though. Maybe because I loved the stop-action "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer" and perhaps perceived Rudolph as being more sympathetic - because he was "different", too...

[Caracoa1]

Now that her transition is complete, if Jazz were to have a DNA test would it show she is male or female?  I am asking in all respect.

[MissTeacher13]

1 hour ago, Caracoa1 said:

Now that her transition is complete, if Jazz were to have a DNA test would it show she is male or female?  I am asking in all respect.

Jazz is still biologically male. She will always have XY chromosomes because we are born with them, and they do not change. 

Edited January 23, 2019 by MissTeacher13
Clarity

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Surgery does not change DNA or chromosomes.  It will change the person's hormone balance since hormone producing organs have been removed.  

[gingerella]

@J. Matazz, may I ask some questions please? And as always, thank you so much for sharing your firsthand experiences with us. I know for me, I learn way more from you than from this show!

1. Will Jazz have to dilate daily for life, or is it just for a set time period until everything fully heals and 'settles', so to speak?

2. Does dilation begin as soon as you're out of surgery or do you wait until a specific healing period is over? I ask because it sounds like it would be extremely painful right away!

3. Are there new/different hormones that you take after surgery, for life, or is it the same stuff you take leading up to surgery?

[J. Matazz]

4 hours ago, gingerella said:

@J. Matazz, may I ask some questions please? And as always, thank you so much for sharing your firsthand experiences with us. I know for me, I learn way more from you than from this show!

1. Will Jazz have to dilate daily for life, or is it just for a set time period until everything fully heals and 'settles', so to speak?

2. Does dilation begin as soon as you're out of surgery or do you wait until a specific healing period is over? I ask because it sounds like it would be extremely painful right away!

3. Are there new/different hormones that you take after surgery, for life, or is it the same stuff you take leading up to surgery?

Always! Thank you so much for asking and your kind words. Genuinely appreciate it more than you know. As much as I'd love to be on the show to explain these things, I'm kind of far from them, and it also seems too often depth (heh) education isn't the primary focus.

 

The first question depends on the person and surgeon but for the first year it's multiple times daily, then once daily there on, per Dr. Bowers. However, that's not really necessary that far out, like I am, which will be four years come May. I do so maybe every week or so? Haven't had any issues in so doing. So if I'm taking a trip or whatnot, don't want to think about dilation on the trip I'll ramp it up a few days beforehand. My body has long fully healed, but that doesn't mean I won't dilate, for a few reasons.

The downside of not doing so frequently is feeling tight when you get back to doing so, and a possible depth loss, but it should be okay. Don't ignore your body, that's the key lesson. Same goes for Jazz.

 

---

 

The second question, this is almost always about a week out of surgery these days. I was stuck in the hospital bed the first 24 hours after surgery, had a dangerously low blood pressure of like 80/59 two days after, and still with a catheter about a week out.

 

Post surgery, but pre-dilation, the vaginal canal is filled with packing, which is a bunch of gauze-filled pads equivalent. You can smell that when lying in bed, and it is rancid with an entire bank of dead blood inside, even with two packs of pads and underwear I bought (as was suggested by Bowers) for that step. Having it removed from you is surreal.

 

Do you know the magic trick where the magician pulls a seemingly never ending cloth out of his hat or somewhere? Imagine that but from inside your body. Oh my goodness, a touch tight but really a roller coaster ride for the down there. Wish my documentary team had captured my likely bug-eyed face and agape mouth.

 

---

 

The third question is a little bit of column A and B. Most people do not have to take as much estrogen as they did preoperatively. In my case, 8mg before, 6mg now. Anecdotally, what I've heard is that 6mg before to like 2 or 4mg is more typical. So the estrogen, as a medicine, albeit not in quantity, stays the same.

However, naturally, as testosterone is shut down from its primary place of production, the drugs needed to block DHT's effects are almost always stopped. The primary place any testosterone is made would then be the adrenal gland, which is equal to natal female numbers, most often. If it gets to be too much, blockers (usually pills) are added back, although this is rare.

 Finally, I chose to add the optional Prometrium/progesterone to try to add some shape and a touch of size to my breasts. On that note, typically the body rounds out a bit more traditionally feminine, as do the breasts, since the body no longer has to additionally focus on testosterone blockage, in the immediate months following surgery.

The Prometrium was expensive, gave me nightmares, but gave me a good sleep. But it was a new, optional pill for me. I eventually stopped because of the nightmares feeling a bit too real. The medical community is unsure of how much of a difference this treatment makes, or doesn't.

 

In short, most of the hormones stay constant for most people, but just like the diversity in our species, there are differences. If you have further questions about my explanations or separate questions, please keep asking! :)

Edited January 24, 2019 by J. Matazz

[gingerella]

@J. Matazz, thanks so much for the info!

@J. Matazz, and another question... I dont know if you have an answer or insights on this but its something that's been hotly debated in this forum since this show began, and that is the issue of Jazz's maturity or lack thereof and if it's a direct result of hormone suppressing. I was just noting on another thread how it seems so sad that Jazz acts like a pre teen around people in her peer group, like Victoria (last season's crush), or Noelle, or the other friends she has. And I wonder...assuming what we see is a lack of maturity due to hormone suppressing, is it possible for her to ever really catch up so to speak? Sorry, I dont know if my question makes any sense the way I'm asking it...if anyone gets what I'm trying to ask and can ask it better, please feel free to do so!

Edited January 25, 2019 by gingerella

[J. Matazz]

On 1/24/2019 at 5:47 PM, gingerella said:

@J. Matazz, thanks so much for the info!

@J. Matazz, and another question... I dont know if you have an answer or insights on this but its something that's been hotly debated in this forum since this show began, and that is the issue of Jazz's maturity or lack thereof and if it's a direct result of hormone suppressing. I was just noting on another thread how it seems so sad that Jazz acts like a pre teen around people in her peer group, like Victoria (last season's crush), or Noelle, or the other friends she has. And I wonder...assuming what we see is a lack of maturity due to hormone suppressing, is it possible for her to ever really catch up so to speak? Sorry, I dont know if my question makes any sense the way I'm asking it...if anyone gets what I'm trying to ask and can ask it better, please feel free to do so!

Glad to help! Thanks for asking.

 

So, I have a few theories on the follow-up. One, Jazz is just kind of a live and let free, ain't nobody gonna change me kind of gal. A bit silly, but that's why I like her. She also might be hamming it up for the cameras. Given I Am Jazz has its frequent share of candid moments, it's kind of to get a rise on those eyes. Guilty of the same, myself, at times: A one-liner I told my doc once was exactly something you'd expect to hear from Jazz. Furthermore, it's all about context. Notably, notice how Jazz will almost always stay pretty serious with the genuinely deep interviews or times where people will be there and/or hearing her?

 

Developmentally...and that is what you're asking here, it makes a ton of sense, but I'm not entirely sure, sadly! I am Jazz Jazz is different than my experience with human Jazz (as is the case with Jeanette, but notably, not anybody else, although Greg is a huge sweetie in person, less the yang to Jeanette's yin). My honest guess is that it's her choice to act this way on the show or TLC is putting such suggestions in. After all, you basically have to have something of a controversial voice to do anything with television now if you're just breaking in.

If it's hormone related, and I'm not a doctor, don't think it's this but: Given surgery would no longer mean blockers and suppressant, I think she'd be okay, sooner than later. TV truly does show the best and worst of us simultaneously though. The only, only thing I've heard is that mental, like academic function can decrease with blockers-I do not recall the study, but believe it studied only individuals who were on only blockers from 12-16. That isn't Jazz, so it doesn't apply. Furthermore, others I've seen gone through similar ages of puberty as Jazz transitioning to female have full maturation.

This was a good, tough question. I wish I had a more absolute answer because there are SO many angles that could apply, possibly simultaneously. My sincerest apologies this answer wasn't better.

[gingerella]

@J. Matazz, thank you, it WAS a tough question, thanks for tackling it!

[TwirlyGirly]

My own daughter is 22, so through her, I'm around young people ranging from around age 18 to age 23-24. Some of them are quite mature for their age; some less. When I think about the major areas in young people's lives: schoolwork, family responsibilities, finances, love relationships, social, jobs, etc., all of them seem quite mature in some areas, and less so in others.

The point is, I think it's natural for Jazz and others in her age group to exhibit varying degrees of maturity. So I doubt any immature behaviors displayed by Jazz have anything to do with her being transgender and/or any drugs/hormones/blockers or other treatments she's had. I think it's just she's in that age group in which her brain is still changing and developing.

One other point; I was born with a physical disability, and spent a good deal of my childhood and early teen years dealing with doctors and therapists. That limited the amount of time I was able to spend just doing "kid stuff" with others my age (plus, because I was "different", it was more difficult for me to make friends). I realized I was lacking in maturity in some areas in my freshman year in college, and began to identify and work on those things. 

With Jazz, it's probably a combination; her brain is still developing, and because she's transgender, her childhood involved (and often revolved around) her being transgender and all the medical attention devoted to identifying and treating that, to the exclusion of spending enough time with other kids her age. It may very well be some of the parents of kids her age wouldn't allow their children to spend time with Jazz (because transgender!), so that may have had an impact as well. We forget how much we learned and grew from our relationships with other children as we were growing up.

[Scarlett45]

3 hours ago, TwirlyGirly said:

My own daughter is 22, so through her, I'm around young people ranging from around age 18 to age 23-24. Some of them are quite mature for their age; some less. When I think about the major areas in young people's lives: schoolwork, family responsibilities, finances, love relationships, social, jobs, etc., all of them seem quite mature in some areas, and less so in others.

The point is, I think it's natural for Jazz and others in her age group to exhibit varying degrees of maturity. So I doubt any immature behaviors displayed by Jazz have anything to do with her being transgender and/or any drugs/hormones/blockers or other treatments she's had. I think it's just she's in that age group in which her brain is still changing and developing.

One other point; I was born with a physical disability, and spent a good deal of my childhood and early teen years dealing with doctors and therapists. That limited the amount of time I was able to spend just doing "kid stuff" with others my age (plus, because I was "different", it was more difficult for me to make friends). I realized I was lacking in maturity in some areas in my freshman year in college, and began to identify and work on those things. 

With Jazz, it's probably a combination; her brain is still developing, and because she's transgender, her childhood involved (and often revolved around) her being transgender and all the medical attention devoted to identifying and treating that, to the exclusion of spending enough time with other kids her age. It may very well be some of the parents of kids her age wouldn't allow their children to spend time with Jazz (because transgender!), so that may have had an impact as well. We forget how much we learned and grew from our relationships with other children as we were growing up.

I agree with your analysis. Also people are different and mature at different rates in different areas of their life. A child may have a high iq, but low emotional intelligence and they may continue to have a lower emotional intelligence as an adult. 

[possibilities]

I've known people with bad table manners and it had nothing to do with their gender identity.

I also don't really think Jazz is that immature. She acts out sometimes, but she's a teenager. She also does a lot of very brave and mature things, like her public speaking and advocacy, and how she reacted when Noelle was stressed at the prom. She's actually way less self-absorbed than many people, in that she thinks about educating the public and helping others, even when she herself has difficulties like depression and being discriminated against and called hateful names and receiving violent threats. Yes, there's a potential ego thrill in being "famous" but if that's the standard by which we judge maturity, we can pretty much write off anyone in the public eye.

How many of us would have been able to handle a TV interview at age 17? How many of us could tolerate the kind of public scrutiny and criticism and threats of violence that Jazz has lived with?

She's not perfect. None of us is.

[gingerella]

@TwirlyGirly, @Scarlett45 & @possibilities, you all make valid and good points about adolescent maturity. So I guess when I read your above comments, I'm left with Jeanette doing a rather shit job in the parenting department as relates to basic manners, hygiene, social norms, etc. Jazz has, from the get go, exhibited disgusting table manners, her hygiene is questionable (see: constantly greasy hair, she's on a TV show, I mean, make an effort, yanno?), and she seems to be really rude many a time to elders (her grandfather, whom she cut off before he could finish his thoughts, which were quite valid IMO) as well as anyone who tries to ask a question that challenges her thinking. All these things combined are things that her parents could have and should have taught her as she was growing up, particularly since she's in the public eye. And we've seen Greg try to but he always gives up because Jazz ignores him, knowing she'll always get the backing of Jeanette on pretty much everything. She probably is socially stunted because of her lack of normal interaction with kids at school and hiding away at home a lot, but the basic stuff mentioned above, every teen ought to know that shit, IMO. It's basic Growing Up 101 stuff.

[Scarlett45]

8 minutes ago, gingerella said:

@TwirlyGirly, @Scarlett45 & @possibilities, you all make valid and good points about adolescent maturity. So I guess when I read your above comments, I'm left with Jeanette doing a rather shit job in the parenting department as relates to basic manners, hygiene, social norms, etc. Jazz has, from the get go, exhibited disgusting table manners, her hygiene is questionable (see: constantly greasy hair, she's on a TV show, I mean, make an effort, yanno?), and she seems to be really rude many a time to elders (her grandfather, whom she cut off before he could finish his thoughts, which were quite valid IMO) as well as anyone who tries to ask a question that challenges her thinking. All these things combined are things that her parents could have and should have taught her as she was growing up, particularly since she's in the public eye. And we've seen Greg try to but he always gives up because Jazz ignores him, knowing she'll always get the backing of Jeanette on pretty much everything. She probably is socially stunted because of her lack of normal interaction with kids at school and hiding away at home a lot, but the basic stuff mentioned above, every teen ought to know that shit, IMO. It's basic Growing Up 101 stuff.

There have certainly been times where I thought Jazz did inappropriate things (like being rude to her grandfather) and all kids make mistakes, and it’s the job of parents and elders to correct them.

However I am not surprised by the way Jeanette handles Jazz given my own life experiences as a Sib (which I’ve talked a bit about here, and a lot on the Teen Mom 2 board). I’ve noticed that almost universally, when one child is disabled, although the parents don’t mean to- they let the child “get away” with shit they would never let the typical children get away with. (To varying degrees) Now Jazz isn’t disabled but I see the same dynamic in the Jennings family. As the “different” child, AND the baby of the family, I would be SURPRISED if Jazz was given as many rules, restrictions and guidance as her siblings. Mothers guilt and all. 

Is Jazz a perfect person? Absolutely not, but I do think she’s a good egg, I saw how kind she was to Noelle and I think her advocacy has helped a lot of people. I’m sure by the time she’s 25 she will look at some of her worst moments and cringe like any other person. I don’t think she should be held to a higher standard because she’s a trans young person (not saying you do!) but I think with some people in their criticisms of Jazz there’s the “model minority” aspect at play. Jazz deserves to be heard even if she isn’t a “model”, she’s got guts to put herself out there in this way. 

[threebluestars]

I really appreciated the surgery episode for opening my eyes to the things I'd never considered - how difficult it would be to pee when your anatomy has been altered, for one. Never crossed my mind, but what a strange thing it must be to know things are still there, but moved around (and having to deal with this while in pain from surgery because urine + open wound = OW). How long would it take your brain to adjust and make a new roadmap, so to speak?

[Zuleikha]

The question of therapy has come up a lot in the Jazz episodes, which inspired me to do more reading about therapeutic approaches for gender dysphoria. I was surprised to learn how controversial this all is. I'm not sure I'm following the present moment correctly, but if I am, the current trend seems to be antithetical to what I understand therapy to do. I've seen a lot of arguments for affirmation-only therapy based on the notion that anything else was basically conversion therapy like the type of stereotype-reinforcing (and from a modern perspective gross!) therapy practiced by Dr. Money (of the Reimer case).

So I found this article really helpful to envision how a middle-ground approach may work. I'm sure many would be skeptical of this therapist and her work, but at least on its face, it seems like a helpful approach. I do wonder how Jazz's teenhood may have been different if she had a therapist who helped her with a modified version of this kind of introspection. Could it have been possible for her to have strategies to handle her dysphoria that would have kept her more comfortable in public school or able to have an easier surgery? 

Edited February 6, 2019 by Zuleikha

[TwirlyGirly]

1 hour ago, Zuleikha said:

The question of therapy has come up a lot in the Jazz episodes, which inspired me to do more reading about therapeutic approaches for gender dysphoria. I was surprised to learn how controversial this all is. I'm not sure I'm following the present moment correctly, but if I am, the current trend seems to be antithetical to what I understand therapy to do. I've seen a lot of arguments for affirmation-only therapy based on the notion that anything else was basically conversion therapy like the type of stereotype-reinforcing (and from a modern perspective gross!) therapy practiced by Dr. Money (of the Reimer case).

So I found this article really helpful to envision how a middle-ground approach may work. I'm sure many would be skeptical of this therapist and her work, but at least on its face, it seems like a helpful approach. I do wonder how Jazz's teenhood may have been different if she had a therapist who helped her with a modified version of this kind of introspection. Could it have been possible for her to have strategies to handle her dysphoria that would have kept her more comfortable in public school or able to have an easier surgery? 

A few thoughts about the group, and the therapy they offer, at the link to the website you provided.

First, I'm always very wary when an individual or group purports to have found a new way to treat a disorder, especially when their methods are vastly different that what the majority of the medical/psychological community has established through years of research as being "best practice".

The first thing I did was to scroll through the "About Us" section to learn the names of the US and CA based physicians and psychologists that are a part of the "Gender Dysphoria Working Group". I was dismayed that several of the names were familiar to me. Some were associated with the Center for Addiction and Mental Health in Toronto (CAMH). You can read about that facility here.

Also, this "Working Group" supposedly treats Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria (ROGD), a disorder they, and only they, have identified. Apparently someone who has ROGD is a teenager who suddenly decides they're transgender (?!?!) Jazz has known she was female since she began to speak.

Does Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria actually exist? I'm sceptical, especially since the term originated in 2016 on three blogs known for their anti-trans rhetoric. For more, read here, and here.

I'm sure there's plenty more to uncover in the backgrounds of those that are part of the Gender Dysphoria Working Group. In my experience, what one finds when one falls down the research rabbit hole to get a better sense of what these groups are about can be pretty shocking.

[Zuleikha]

I wrote this sentence "I'm sure many would be skeptical of this therapist and her work, but at least on its face, it seems like a helpful approach" specifically to try and forestall judging the approach based on the identity of the therapist. I'm not interested in that discussion. It would be controversial, and IMHO, not productive. It would also be irrelevant to Jazz because she doesn't have ROGD. (However, if the "(?!?!)" is supposed to question whether there are teenagers who identify as transgender without any previous sense of their selves being transgender, there is no question that this happens. The only debate is about what percentage fall into this category, why does this happen, and what is the the best treatment approach.)

I'm interested in taking the therapy described on face value, and thinking about how that type of approach may or may not have helped Jazz have an easier journey in her teen years. Because based on the episodes, the past few years have been very rough and it also seems possible that the strength of her dysphoria led her to pick a more-dangerous-than-strictly-speaking necessary surgical approach. 

Edited February 7, 2019 by Zuleikha

[TwirlyGirly]

19 minutes ago, Zuleikha said:

I wrote this sentence "I'm sure many would be skeptical of this therapist and her work, but at least on its face, it seems like a helpful approach" specifically to try and forestall judging the approach based on the identity of the therapist. I'm not interested in that discussion. It would be controversial, and IMHO, not productive. It would also be irrelevant to Jazz because she doesn't have ROGD. (However, if the "(?!?!)" is supposed to question whether there are teenagers who identify as transgender without any previous sense of their selves being transgender, there is no question that this happens. The only debate is about the why and the best approach.)

I'm interested in taking the therapy described on face value, and thinking about how that type of approach may or may not have helped Jazz have an easier journey in her teen years. Because based on the episodes, the past few years have been very rough and it also seems possible that the strength of her dysphoria led her to pick a more-dangerous-than-strictly-speaking necessary surgical approach. 

Just curious - did you read any or all of the three links I provided? I ask because those links question whether ROGD *does* exist. If the research methodology which led to the identification of ROGD was flawed (and I believe it was, based on the evidence), then the existence of ROGD hasn't been proved. Thus, any therapy offered to treat something which hasn't been proved to exist is specious, at best. 

I think it's necessary to look carefully at the background of everyone purporting to treat those with gender dysphoria, especially those who offer treatments different from the protocols established over many years, which is solidly supported by scientific studies that were peer-reviewed and published in major scientific journals, and for which there is majority agreement among both the medical and psychological communities. It concerns me several members of this group have treated young people who are gender dysphoric at facilities with which they were affiliated prior to their association with the Gender Dysphoria Working Group using techniques also based on inaccurate and scientifically flawed research. 

As for Jazz specifically, she was involved in therapy for many years; especially when she was younger. Do any of us know whether any aspects of the ROGD therapy were used by Jazz's therapists in their sessions with her? No. They may very well have been, but that doesn't mean such therapy would absolutely have prevented her from making decisions with which others disagree, or having any issues (such as with depression) now. 

[Zuleikha]

Just curious - did you read any or all of the three links I provided?

How is this at all unclear? "I'm not interested in that discussion. It would be controversial, and IMHO, not productive. It would also be irrelevant to Jazz because she doesn't have ROGD." 

However, I will interpret your response as you weighing in that no, you don't think the described approach would be at all helpful to Jazz. 

[PrincessPurrsALot]

MOD NOTE: Let's think about how we are interacting with each other.  The main rule of PTV is BE CIVIL.  Part of that is not telling others how to post.  As always, let's be careful out there!

[TwirlyGirly]

On 2/6/2019 at 11:41 PM, Zuleikha said:

How is this at all unclear? "I'm not interested in that discussion. It would be controversial, and IMHO, not productive. It would also be irrelevant to Jazz because she doesn't have ROGD." 

However, I will interpret your response as you weighing in that no, you don't think the described approach would be at all helpful to Jazz. 

If there is a possibility of therapeutic value with the methods practiced by the Gender Dysphoria Working Group (GDWG) for transgender teens like Jazz, I'd like to know the techniques employed by the GDWG that may be beneficial (whether practiced by the GDWG or other therapists employing the same techniques), according to what may be described on the GDWG website.

I'm interested in the "how" (verbs). What, exactly, does their "described approach" involve? I'm not asking for possible positive outcomes; I'm asking specifically what they do as part of this therapy to (hopefully) attain those outcomes. What is their methodology? I did peruse the website in an attempt to find this information on my own but was unable to do so; I don't know if I just missed it or it's simply not available.

I'd also be interested in any data  regarding whether other psychologists specializing in the treatment of transgender teens (not affiliated with the GDWG) utilize similar techniques in their treatment protocol.

If you, or anyone else, is able to provide this information, I would appreciate it.

One last note:

I doubt anyone here thinks research into gender dysphoria, its cause and treatment, should cease, and that a treatment protocol consisting of therapy, puberty blockers, hormones, and surgery will remain the best and only way to treat gender dysphoria in the future.

Science advances (thank goodness). Bloodletting, which was considered the "cure" for a whole host of diseases and conditions for 2000 years, is no longer practiced. Through rigorous, scientifically conducted research, therapies and treatment protocols have been developed that are less invasive and with higher success rates for the diseases and conditions for which bloodletting was the "gold standard" of treatment for two millennia. (Note: I am not comparing the current treatment protocol for gender dysphoria to bloodletting).

Research into the cause and treatment of gender dysphoria must - and will - continue. However, that research must be conducted using standard scientific methods, with any new treatments based on sound scientific research, to avoid negative outcomes (as much as possible) to what is a very vulnerable group.

The suicide/suicide attempt rate among those with gender dysphoria is higher than that of those who are cisgender. Therefore, any proposed treatment(s) which deviate from the current protocol (either to supplement or replace) must be rigorously tested in a controlled manner to ensure no further harm is done.

There are those who may believe "Therapy is just talking, after all. Surely talking can't hurt, and it may have some benefit - so what's the harm in trying?"

IMO, "talking" can hurt. I am going to question the benefit of sending a vulnerable teen (Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria [ROGD] or not) to any therapist who subscribes to a belief there are a subset of teens who suddenly decide they're transgender, based upon the view: 

"... these teens and young adults are arriving at a belief that they are transgender after spending time on transgender sites online, and/or in conjunction with one or more peers coming out in the same time frame. This raises the concern that there may be elements of social contagion at work."

(http://gdworkinggroup.org/rapid-onset-gender-dysphoria/)

What is the basis for this opinion? A study which was conducted by soliciting parents of transgender teens to participate by posting notices on anti-trans websites/forums (i.e., parents who were already predisposed to question the validity of gender dysphoria) and only including the parents of those teens in the study. The teens themselves were not interviewed or given a questionnaire to complete; they were not included in the study. The study's conclusion was based solely on the parent's perception of what was going on with their children.

IMO, any therapy, even "talk therapy", developed by someone who believes in some cases gender dysphoria may result from "social contagion" has the potential to do great harm.

Even if such a thing were to exist (ROGD caused by "social contagion"), a rigorous application of the gender dysphoria diagnostic criteria as set forth in the DSM-5 to every patient would screen them out. As a matter of fact, the problem with the study that came out as a result of the work done at the Center for Addiction and Mental Health in Toronto was they did not separate out those who met the established clinical criteria for gender dysphoria from those who were gender non-conforming (two entirely different diagnoses), skewing the study's results. Despite that issue, they claimed 84% of study participants eventually desisted. However, it is those who are gender non-conforming who have the high rate of desisting; those who meet the criteria for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria rarely do.

Because of deceptive tactics such as this, (frequently employed by those who believe gender dysphoria isn't a "real" condition, or who conflate gender dysphoria and gender non-conforming), I view any treatment that differs from what has already been established, and isn't supported by scientifically conducted, peer reviewed studies published in mainstream scientific journals, with a lot of scepticism.

Edited February 9, 2019 by TwirlyGirly

[possibilities]

In multiple episode threads, there's been discussion of Jazz saying she wanted a "pretty vagina," and numerous posters have opined that "vulvas aren't pretty."

I liked this article about a photographer who photographed 100 vulvas and had their people discuss how they feel about them. The article includes at least 1 transwoman's story. I don't know if there are more trans stories in the book or not, but there's at least one.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/feb/09/me-and-my-vulva-100-women-reveal-all-photographs

[SunnyBeBe]

Does anyone know if Jazz has officially changed her name? Just curious.  I don't need to know what it is, but, wondered if she decided to keep Jazz as her legal name.  I have read several places that Jennings is not the family's real last name. I can see why they do it that way. 

[gingerella]

@J. Matazz, hey there! Haven't seen you around these parts and wanted to re ask a question from another thread. Does Dr. Bowers require/advise that patients go for therapeutic counseling post-surgery? I ask because a lot of us are rolling our eyes and scratching our heads over the craziness that Jazz seems to be spinning in post-surgey (immediate boyfriend, moving out before college, many other things), and it would seem logical that counseling would be required post-surgery to help the patient adjust afterwards and to process this beginning of a new phase in life. As always, thanks for any insights you can provide...I watch this show more to be able to ask you questions than anything else because it helps to have firsthand knowledge shared. Thank you for that opportunity...!