S01.E05: Episode 5

[jjj]

Speaking of lack of transition -- after seeing nothing but trepidation from Demelza about social events (Christmas, hiding in the kitchen with Verity during the chrstening, general comments about not fitting in), I was so surprised to see her skipping down the road about the invitation to the house party from the Warleggens.  It was completely out of character, and I thought I must have missed some scene of validation for her.  But no, her anticipation was just a dramatic device so Ross could deflate her anticipation.

[photo fox]

I think there's a fair amount of "revenge" as part of the Warleggans' motive as well.  Meaning, I think they get a charge out of gaining the advantage of those from noble families and "flipping the script" on them, if you will.

[Nampara]

Speaking of lack of transition -- after seeing nothing but trepidation from Demelza about social events (Christmas, hiding in the kitchen with Verity during the chrstening, general comments about not fitting in), I was so surprised to see her skipping down the road about the invitation to the house party from the Warleggens.  It was completely out of character, and I thought I must have missed some scene of validation for her.  But no, her anticipation was just a dramatic device so Ross could deflate her anticipation.

 

Demelza did explain to Ross that she was eager to attend in order to make up for the mortifying christening party and prove her gentility.

[Milz]

We just saw in the previous episode that they were able to find a copper vein at Wheal Leisure, despite the fact that the mine had been closed for a number of years.  The Warleggans believe - rightly - that the best way for such a discovery to not happen at Grambler is for them to own it and not operate it.  So, yes, they believed that it made business sense to purchase the operation of a potential rival in order to forestall any possibilities that Grambler could become profitable again.  And since it was won in a card game, they did it in a way that presented no risk to them since they didn't actually put any money into the purchase.  Acquiring something that may potentially rival your operation at no risk = good business sense. 

 

Different mine. Even with established mines digging in one direction might yield something or it might not. In the last episode, we saw the difficulty with the "ironstone" the miners encountered at Wheal Leisure. Then the structural integrity of the tunnel needs to be considered because dead miners in a caved-in section is highly unprofitable.

 

As I wrote above, if something isn't productive, it's losing money (or breaking even) and that isn't good business sense, short term or long term). According to page 11 on this site (http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/serials/files/cato-journal/1981/5/cj1n1-7.pdf) , land was taxed and by 1801 there was a property and income tax. So sure the Warleggans can close Grambler, but they will still lose money because they will have to pay taxes on it. In other words, the longer Grambler sits redundant the more money they lose. And the fact that they accepted Grambler shows me that they aren't as clever as they are made out to be. OR the writers messed up by making these plot changes.

[photo fox]

Guys, this is getting a little circular.

[jjj]

I don't care what happened in the books, but I'm trying to understand the version we are watching:  I found that scene of the mine closing very odd, with only a small group of people present, and that group including ten women aside from the Poldarks.  Was the mine already not in operation?  Because it seems like if it were a working mine, there would be a lot of men there.  The women in the gathering outnumbered the men 2:1.   And I appreciated the gesture of Elizabeth/Verity showing up, but I wonder if they had ever even been to the mine?  I would have preferred more time spent understanding how this mine was going to the Warleggens, and seeing that they would be closing it, rather than that scene.  I think we are just left to assume the mine will be closing; Francis was acting like he would be starting it up again someday:  "Resurgam".  That was a lot of poetry from someone who has mainly been superficial and bitter. 

[chocolatetruffle]

I'm right there with you jjj, that scene was confusing (and I'm also only interested in what the show is giving me).  It seemed like Francis was announcing that he was no longer owner, not that it was closing.  Although, based on what we learned about the Warleggans in earlier episodes, we are left to assume they will close it, since that's just how they roll.  

 

I actually like the character of Francis, because he is complex - he has his demons, but he also had a toxic relationship w/ his father that left him feeling worthless.  He wants to be strong and responsible, he just doesn't know how.  You could see in that scene how the loss of the mine was a personal failure for him.  He's disgraced himself, his family name and put the future of his child at risk. 

[Haleth]

Oh I forgot. I actually liked Demelza's dad slut shaming the strumpet who has been so mean to her. Put your bosoms away lady.

i was just coming here to say this. Amidst all the misery we had the comical moment of Demelza's father saying to Ruth, 'Cover up, missy." Ha!

The actress is going to be trouble.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Haleth

[Nidratime]

If Demelza's father was at a regular party where the "upper classes" hang out, he'd be running all over the room telling woman after woman after woman to COVER UP! ;-)

[dubbel zout]

Typical convert to that old-time religion: He's suddenly the most pious man who ever lived. Ugh. Hypocritical asshole.

[butterly17]

I didn't think this episode had anymore drastic scene changes than any other episode of this series, it's just how it is.... I doubt they are suddenly going to change this style that they have obviously chosen on purpose. I suppose they think it adds suspense and a modern feel.

I feel like Elizabeth is going to up her game towards Ross now that she seems to feel she owes Frances little if anything in the way of loyalty... after he's proven to be a shitty husband and provider.

Ross is a sucker for Elizabeth, oh boy. At least Demelza doesn't seem blind to it... and she went into this marriage knowing full and well he was still hung up on the other Mrs. Poldark.

Captain Blamey was all over the place, but I guess in this time period, beggars( single women over 23) couldn't be choosers?

Ross would have been sooo pissed if he knew what Demelza was up to, I have a feeling this will blow up in her face in a bad way.

Ross was an ass to invite Demelza's Dad without her knowledge, he knew she wouldn't have wanted it.

[jjj]

Yes, Ross knew full well how fraught the relationship was between Demelza and her father -- in fact married her just as her father had ordered her back home!  We never did see the resolution of that (not complaining -- I don't need to see her father any more!).  Not to *ask* Demelza if he (Ross) could invite her father was bad enough -- but not to *tell* her was extremely patronizing. 

Edited July 21, 2015 by jjj

[jjj]

He didn't invite him. <snipped to remove post that was moved to the "Dear Book Readers" topic>

No, that is not at all what happened -- Demelza asked why her father was there, and Ross said "I invited him".  No book learnin' here, I am just watching the show!

Edited July 21, 2015 by photo fox

[skyways]

oh sorry! I must have missed it the first time. Yet even then it doesn't make sense that he invited him and not tell her. After all, in the previous episode, he told her he had written to her father and told him her place 'lay here'. Why then would he invite him and not let her know? Why is Horsefield allergic to the secondary characters and keeps shoehorning the Ross character even when he's not involved???

[photo fox]

Okay, all, this is official notice that I'm going to be taking a harder line on book talk in the episode topics.  I've been trying to give some leeway, but there's way too much discussion of the books in these topics, which as I've stated before should be about the episode as it aired. (Stuff that was cut from the U.S. airing is fine; that's still from the episode.)

 

My reasons:

• Some of this stuff is spoilery
• Sometimes it comes off as lecturing, like "let me explain what you're really watching (i.e. how it was in the books)"
• People who have only watched this version and haven't read the books want to discuss this version

 

There are topics for discussing the books, the 1970s version, and all three.  If you need a reminder on where to post what, check out the mod note thread here.  Any further questions, feel free to PM me.

 

I'm going to go through all of the episode topics and move posts to the appropriate places in line with this new stricter policy.

 

Thanks for understanding!

[jah1986]

Just caught this episode and thanks to all of you just caught up on the entire first 4 episodes this weekend. I really like this. I have never heard of the book or an earlier TV version so I'm enjoying it on its own merits. Time does seem to be moving weirdly. Capt. Blamely saying the years he's tried to forget Verity but Elizabeth's baby seems still very young, not quite two.  I love Verity and I hope she finds some happiness. I don't hate Francis, I don't like him but there's potential there for him to be a decent human being if not a leader of men.  I cannot figure out the Warleggans, are they just evil for evil's sake or is there some backstory?

 

For the life of me I can't see what is so great about Elizabeth that Ross is still pining after her for all these years.  I think he does love Demelza but he also seems to just love being able to say "my wife". Honestly, how many times does he say that in an episode?

[Milz]

I don't care what happened in the books, but I'm trying to understand the version we are watching:  I found that scene of the mine closing very odd, with only a small group of people present, and that group including ten women aside from the Poldarks.  Was the mine already not in operation?  Because it seems like if it were a working mine, there would be a lot of men there.  The women in the gathering outnumbered the men 2:1.   And I appreciated the gesture of Elizabeth/Verity showing up, but I wonder if they had ever even been to the mine?  I would have preferred more time spent understanding how this mine was going to the Warleggens, and seeing that they would be closing it, rather than that scene.  I think we are just left to assume the mine will be closing; Francis was acting like he would be starting it up again someday:  "Resurgam".  That was a lot of poetry from someone who has mainly been superficial and bitter. 

 

We've been told since episode 2 that Grambler was being worked out. Why they had the women there and not the men, I don't know (maybe they had some production issues?) It would have made more sense if the crowd had mostly men, but then it would have made more sense if Francis wasn't made out to be a milksop dandy for the last 4 episodes and actually had even the smallest sliver of business acumen or at the very least showing he did care about his miners (rather than the uncomfortable scene of Francis on horseback surveying his miners with a a WTF look on his face.)

 

Also it doesn't make sense if Grambler had been lost to the Warleggans that Francis is the one closing it. I really expected that Francis and the family gathered the miners to tell them that the Warleggans own Grambler now, not that Grambler is closing.

 

Anyhow, about Geoffrey Charles the Vampire.....HRH Prince George of Cambridge will be 2 years old tomorrow. He looks older than Geoffrey Charles who would be about the same age according to the show's timeline. Has there ever been any reverse SORAS characters? I guess in this case it would be SODAS (Soap Opera Delayed Aging Syndrome)

[Milz]

Yes, Ross knew full well how fraught the relationship was between Demelza and her father -- in fact married her just as her father had ordered her back home!  We never did see the resolution of that (not complaining -- I don't need to see her father any more!).  Not to *ask* Demelza if he (Ross) could invite her father was bad enough -- but not to *tell* her was extremely patronizing. 

 

I think this is a way to show the viewers a marriage of earlier times when the husband was the decision-maker of the house and the wife was his property. I mean, until the early 20th century, a husband could rape his wife and suffer no legal ramifications because he had a right to her body.

 

That's why I think Elizabeth is really lucky Francis isn't a brute.

[attica]

Typical convert to that old-time religion: He's suddenly the most pious man who ever lived. Ugh. Hypocritical asshole.

Yeah, I'm with you. As much as that character is a bitch, I was hoping she'd yank down her bodice the rest of the way, shake her moneymakers at D's dad and tell him to fuck all the way off.

[Nampara]

I cannot figure out the Warleggans, are they just evil for evil's sake or is there some backstory?

 

For the life of me I can't see what is so great about Elizabeth that Ross is still pining after her for all these years. 

 

1. The Warleggans in general are not evil so much as they are amoral. They represent the rise of the modern capitalist who interferes with and eventually supersedes the old class-based economic relationships between landowners and their tenants. A gentleman can't support his family or the local villagers with the products of his estate if the newly powerful bank calls in all his loans! In episode 5, when Dwight Enys first sets foot in the Warleggans' mansion, he is incredulous to learn that the family had moved from relative poverty to great wealth in only two generations. They achieved their rise by being coldly calculating, grasping, and ruthless. Think Scrooge with more ambition. That's the only way they know how to do business, and it doesn't matter who gets in the way. That said, they do have a particular grudge against Ross Poldark for refusing to "play ball" with their bank and for appearing to think himself above them socially, due to his ancient name.

 

2. The Liz fixation is cause for some serious hair-pulling, is it not? I wrote the following summary of Poldark in my very first post in this forum. It was in one of the book-related spoiler threads, so I hope no one minds if I repost the paragraph here, where everyone can read it:

 

A man becomes despondent and forlorn after rejection by the sweetheart of his adolescence and the collapse of his personal economy. He despises the world for seeming to thwart him at every turn. Stung by this unwarranted contempt, the world responds by identifying the most glorious woman alive -- an astonishing creature who is lovely, loving, and lovable to an almost mythological extent, and who combines a high-spirited, joyous embrace of existence with a luminous inner beauty -- and dropping her RIGHT INTO HIS LAP. Rather than spending the rest of his days sobbing out hosannas of gratitude for this stunning good fortune, the man embarks upon a years-long project of nuturing a persistent "grass is greener" fantasy, wondering if he really has benefited after all.

[chocolatetruffle]

Also it doesn't make sense if Grambler had been lost to the Warleggans that Francis is the one closing it. I really expected that Francis and the family gathered the miners to tell them that the Warleggans own Grambler now, not that Grambler is closing.

 

 

I re-watched this scene last night and actually Francis doesn't tell them that it's closing.  In fact, he doesn't tell them much of anything other than he's sorry.  Then rings the bell and writes "Resurgam" or whatever that was, which we learn is his version of Arnold's "I'll be back."  So unless that bell-ringing is symbolic of the mine closing it's doors for good, then a lot of what was really going on in that scene was unspoken and inferred. Obviously, everyone was acting like something very bad just happened or was about to happen shortly.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

The Poldark Baby Speaks! / Demelza gives birth to a daughter and she has things to say.

[shandy]

  Then rings the bell and writes "Resurgam" or whatever that was, which we learn is his version of Arnold's "I'll be back." 

 

I was so smug I recognized resurgam from a death in Jane Eyre - if Mrs R, my high school English teacher hadn't retired I would have emailed the school to tell her I remembered one thing at least from her sawdust dry lit class.

Edited July 21, 2015 by shandy

[Milz]

I re-watched this scene last night and actually Francis doesn't tell them that it's closing.  In fact, he doesn't tell them much of anything other than he's sorry.  Then rings the bell and writes "Resurgam" or whatever that was, which we learn is his version of Arnold's "I'll be back."  So unless that bell-ringing is symbolic of the mine closing it's doors for good, then a lot of what was really going on in that scene was unspoken and inferred. Obviously, everyone was acting like something very bad just happened or was about to happen shortly.

 

If bell ringing in a mine has the same meaning as bell ringing in the New York Stock Exchange, then yes, we can infer that the mine is closed.

[Greta]

1. The Warleggans in general are not evil so much as they are amoral. They represent the rise of the modern capitalist who interferes with and eventually supersedes the old class-based economic relationships between landowners and their tenants. A gentleman can't support his family or the local villagers with the products of his estate if the newly powerful bank calls in all his loans! 

 

Then perhaps the gentleman in question shouldn't have taken out the loans. The business of business is business.  In general I'm more sympathetic to the idea of traditional systems dying and the impact it has on people but this shoddily written show and its awful, awful caricature of Ross as the people's hero makes me appreciate the destructive-creative nature of capitalism more and more.

[LiveenLetLive]

I wish that the actress playing Elizabeth and AT had more chemistry, alas I really am not feeling the "pull" of their personal history. Meanwhile At's chemistry with ET is smoking hot...

[HurricaneVal]

This episode certainly gave us more on the Francis/Elizabeth dynamic than the previous ones, that's for sure.  I actually quite liked Elizabeth in this episode, particularly when she insisted on going to the mine when Francis made his announcement.  I did not, however, like the character's use of the baby as a passive/aggressive way to have a "conversation" with Francis--though I suppose we've perhaps missed weeks and weeks of her attempts to have real conversations and been rebuffed, so she had to resort to that bit of business.  "Shall we ask Daddy how the mine is going today?  I wonder if he has any new promising veins of ore coming out?"  Blech.  Francis's impatient exit from the table is fully warranted, I might have slapped her.

 

I did think this episode seemed choppy and disjointed.  Too many things bundled together--birth of the baby, the awkward christening, Papa D getting all uppity, the Verity/Demelza/Blamey stuff, the introduction of the doctor, the actress and mine worker, Francis losing the mine, Ross floating the idea of the mine owner/smelting cartel...  Too much going on if you ask me.  Now that I listed that all out (plus some stuff I missed), no wonder it seemed choppy and disjointed!

 

One thing that I've noticed both at Grambler and Leisure, is all the women topside of the mine whacking away at the ore with their little rock hammers, so there must have been mining jobs for women back then, just not the deep earth mining, more like a post-processing job.  So that's probably why there were all those women at the big announcement at Grambler, they were already there and topside.  The men were probably already searching for work elsewhere.

 

The sets and locations continue to keep me in awe.  I had to laugh as everyone had to duck their heads going into and out of Captain Blamey's rooms.  That was an authentic location!  I think the door was so low partly because people really were shorter back then--good nutrition and medicine have allowed us humans to grow taller--and partly because the low door lintels and ceilings kept the heat from the fireplace in the room, and closer to the people needing it.

[chocolatetruffle]

If bell ringing in a mine has the same meaning as bell ringing in the New York Stock Exchange, then yes, we can infer that the mine is closed.

 

Can we, though?  In episode 2 when they closed a mine, the military showed up and barred the workers from entering, which seems fairly typical procedure when a factory closes.  But to use the NYSE as an example, the ringing bell signals the end of the workday.  It seemed, to me at least that, Francis was symbolically saying goodbye by ringing the bell "for the last time" as owner of the mine.  I don't find it hard to believe that in a few days or weeks, Sanson would show up and close the mine in a similar fashion as the other mine was closed.  Not trying to be argumentative, just pointing out that the scene was confusing and could be read in a number of different ways.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

Then perhaps the gentleman in question shouldn't have taken out the loans. The business of business is business.  In general I'm more sympathetic to the idea of traditional systems dying and the impact it has on people but this shoddily written show and its awful, awful caricature of Ross as the people's hero makes me appreciate the destructive-creative nature of capitalism more and more.

 

Businesses can function without bankrupting entire families and communities.  Of course, yes, individuals should not take out more than they can afford, but the entire world recently lived through a Great Recession that taught us, once again, that banks can manipulate the rules in such a way that they benefit no matter what, even while those with less power and means suffer greatly.

 

I don't really see how the show is "shoddily written" or that Ross is some sort of "awful caricature" of the people's hero.  He seems to me like a fairly well-written character who finds himself caught between two worlds - one that appreciates an older system while recognizing that those on the lower rungs of the economic strata are getting screwed.  He doesn't at all seem like "the people's hero" to me - he seems like a guy who is trying to survive, and in doing so, recognizing that there are many other people for whom he is responsible who don't have his resources or privileges.

 

The "destructive creative nature of capitalism" is nice to romanticize, until you realize that it is the people like Jim Carter and the miners and fishermen who get hurt the most when no one is willing to put any kind of breaks on it.  That is what this show is rightly reminding us, IMO.  I find it quite resonant with the world we live in today.

[Nampara]

In general I'm more sympathetic to the idea of traditional systems dying and the impact it has on people but this shoddily written show and its awful, awful caricature of Ross as the people's hero makes me appreciate the destructive-creative nature of capitalism more and more.

 

Fine in theory if that's your outlook, but the Warleggans' brand of capitalism is not creative, only destructive. They are high-profit financiers whose objective is not to promote risky but promising ventures, but rather to extract the maximum possible percentages from relatively safe bets. As George said to his uncle in episode 4, about purchasing Choake's shares in Wheal Leisure: "Each way we win [i.e., whether Ross's mine fails or succeeds]. Enjoy his ruin, or the fruits of his labor." When the Warleggans do become directly involved in industries, it's only to attempt to dominate them and then enjoy monopoly rents.

[Llywela]

Uh huh. The traditional system is flawed, but the landowners and their tenant-workers were all in it together, all of them tied to the fortunes of the mines. If a small landowner has a mine on his land and it is beginning to struggle, he will try all ways to save it, because not only is it his primary source of income but also the only available source of employment for the however many men and women working there (women would work at the mines as bal maids, up top processing ore), primarily his tenants, for whom he is responsible. That's where the loans come in - with his existing shafts running dry and the profit margin shrinking rapidly, he'll want to open up new shafts in hopes of striking a new vein, but that takes capital, so he turns to the bank for help, hoping for a big return to defray that initial outlay. That's basically what Ross did when he re-opened Wheal Leisure, which had been thought worked out - he asked for investment, took a gamble, and it paid off when they struck copper. But if the gamble doesn't pay off, then the landowner is left with rapidly diminishing returns, a hefty loan he can't repay and a lot of dependent workers, families attached, with nowhere else to go. And when the loan is then called in by a bank like the Warleggans...they have no personal stake in the matter. Where to the landlord and his workers, that mine is everything, all they have to live on, so they'll keep it going as long as possible, to the Warleggans it is just another asset among many in their possession, so if it isn't turning a big enough profit, they'll just close it even if it is still producing, in order to improve conditions for their other assets. Doing so is good business sense, perhaps, if that overall profit is what you care about, but it is a dispassionate way of going about it, the approach of a big business with many irons in the fire, and would cause great distress to the workers and their families, who have no other source of income. The traditional system is smaller scale and more intimate, with the fortunes of each individual mine as important to the owners as to the workers.

[purist]

 

One thing that I've noticed both at Grambler and Leisure, is all the women topside of the mine whacking away at the ore with their little rock hammers, so there must have been mining jobs for women back then, just not the deep earth mining, more like a post-processing job.

 

As Llywela says, these women are bal maid(en)s. There is a surprisingly comprehensive Wikipedia entry on the topic.

[attica]

It has long amused me that a source of such toil an misery is called "Leisure."

[dubbel zout]

Mine workers to Ross: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

[HalcyonDays]

It has long amused me that a source of such toil an misery is called "Leisure."

 

I had to look this up, but if I read it correctly, Wheal indicates a mine, so I wonder if the mine was so named, because (originally) is was so rich in copper, it was consiiderably easy to mine it. Just speculation. But yeah, that name throws me off also.

 

Businesses can function without bankrupting entire families and communities.

 

Maybe small businesses and those whose sole goal is profit. The problem (one of many) with capitalism is that it chooses profit over all else, whether is be workers, or the betterment of the product or R&D or something that helps the community. Greed and short-sightedness is the problem and has been for decades. The Warleggans are just doing what everyone today does and has always done - make selfish decisions to increase their profit at the expense of everyone else.

 

The problem to me is how it impacts the community and the masses in general, but with capitalism, the majority don't matter.

 

This episode did seem a bit disjointed and I thought too that Demelza being excited about that party was strange. She is almost always seen as being very hesitant, so this really stood out.

 

I just want to slap Francis for his snotty comments and his behaviour towards Verity, Elizabeth and the others. Feminist rant, but this is WHY you don't allow only men to have sole control the all of the finances. You have to have joint control, in case one spouse screws up like this (this applies both ways, btw). Because of his selfishness and pride, he just screwed up the lives of Verity, Elizabeth and his own kid while they had no choice but to sit back powerless. Makes me angry.

 

I know the same somewhat applies to Ross and Demelza, but you see Ross confiding in her and getting her advice and opinion, and including her in decisons and also telling her about the operation of the mine. That's a good thing.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

I had to look this up, but if I read it correctly, Wheal indicates a mine, so I wonder if the mine was so named, because (originally) is was so rich in copper, it was consiiderably easy to mine it. Just speculation. But yeah, that name throws me off also.

 

 

Maybe small businesses and those whose sole goal is profit. The problem (one of many) with capitalism is that it chooses profit over all else, whether is be workers, or the betterment of the product or R&D or something that helps the community. Greed and short-sightedness is the problem and has been for decades. The Warleggans are just doing what everyone today does and has always done - make selfish decisions to increase their profit at the expense of everyone else.

 

The problem to me is how it impacts the community and the masses in general, but with capitalism, the majority don't matter.

 

No, that's only laissez-faire capitalism.  Well-regulated capitalism can function to create wealth while also lifting people out of poverty and allowing others to live a comfortably middle class life.  You're describing unchecked, extreme capitalism, and that's as much a function of the political system as it is the economic one, IMO.

 

I mean, let's not romanticize the older order of things, either, which could also lead to abuses between tenants and landlords.  The Warleggans obviously represent the coming industrial order, but one could make the argument that Francis also represents the weaknesses of the previous order of things. A weak owner who doesn't know how to manage his finances and to be creative when things are down impacts the whole society around him, as well, even though he might feel an obligation to those tenants.  Allowing others to create capital - allowing those tenants to break free of that system - isn't necessarily a bad thing.

[Milz]

Can we, though?  In episode 2 when they closed a mine, the military showed up and barred the workers from entering, which seems fairly typical procedure when a factory closes.  But to use the NYSE as an example, the ringing bell signals the end of the workday.  It seemed, to me at least that, Francis was symbolically saying goodbye by ringing the bell "for the last time" as owner of the mine.  I don't find it hard to believe that in a few days or weeks, Sanson would show up and close the mine in a similar fashion as the other mine was closed.  Not trying to be argumentative, just pointing out that the scene was confusing and could be read in a number of different ways.

 

With this scene being so vague, I don't think any opinion would be argumentative! 

 

I don't really see how the show is "shoddily written" or that Ross is some sort of "awful caricature" of the people's hero.  He seems to me like a fairly well-written character who finds himself caught between two worlds - one that appreciates an older system while recognizing that those on the lower rungs of the economic strata are getting screwed.  He doesn't at all seem like "the people's hero" to me - he seems like a guy who is trying to survive, and in doing so, recognizing that there are many other people for whom he is responsible who don't have his resources or privileges.

 

Just a historical note: the older system Ross belongs to is one of serfdom. His tenants pay him rent. In turn, he benefits from them because they provide him a labor force, skilled (the miners, smiths, wrights, etc.) or unskilled (domestics workers, farm hands) and protection/safety. The closest thing we've seen to the protection aspect in this series is Ross' attempt to help Jim by first appealing to Hugh Bodrugan and then Ross' testimony in court (read the book if you want to see the other example Lord-of-the-manor-protecting-his-serfs because it was cut out of both dramatizations.) The closest thing to serfdom in the US was the plantation system.

[HalcyonDays]

No, that's only laissez-faire capitalism.  Well-regulated capitalism can function to create wealth while also lifting people out of poverty and allowing others to live a comfortably middle class life.  You're describing unchecked, extreme capitalism, and that's as much a function of the political system as it is the economic one, IMO.

 

All economic theories are all sound, it when they are put into practice that is the problem. Leave it to people to run, and their own selfishness and greed and power hungry natures destroy it. Socialism or pure communism is a sound idea also - but the moment you allow a human to intrepret it, the theory gets incorrectly implemented (see religion, political party ideologies, etc)

 

There are a lot of checks and balances in today's version, but we still get abuses that hurt the masses as we always have. As Milz mentioned, Ross as a landowner implements the serfdom method of the time. The only difference is that he is portrayed as not taking advantage of the workers but most landowners would. If your crops sucked that year, too bad. You still have to pay X-amount to your landowner, and so what if you starved. Sucks to be you, serf.

 

The Black Death is where the peasants got some power. With so many deaths, very few were around to work the fields or do the labour. Now without crops coming in, the landowners were losing money, and the serfs had some leeway and power to negotiate and change their status and plight. I would say before that, most landowners couldn't care less about the serfs. Human nature.

 

Slavery in the US too - as long as the US was making money off cotton, who cared about the plight or freedom of millions of people. Same with the industrial revolution - none of those factories had any qualms about chaining kids to machinery and having them work 12-14 hours days, or unsafe conditions for all the worker. One dies, you just get another one, which is why we now have unions. And none of the companies today care about employees. All they understand is outsourcing and layoffs, as long as that company can boost shareholder value. None of this benefits the middle and lower classes (here). Just the rich, back then and now.

 

"Well-regulated" capitalism sounds like an oxymoron to me. Does that even happen? Because the powerful companies have too much lobbying power and money to dare let any government (or otherwise) "regulations" interferetoo much with their money-making ventures. Just enough for public face. Assuming that's what you meant by well-regulated!!

 

That's my bitter cynical view, mind you, but history does back up some of my cynical opinion *grin*.

 

The only thing I could say about Ross is that he is written as a bit too goody-two shows, in his attempts to try to help everyone on his land. Maybe not so realistic, especially as he is a person who has little money either. His face, when riding his horse he gives money to the peasants (miners) looked so dejected after, because he was heading to town to ask for more investor money because his mine needed more cash.

 

Anyway - episode. I actually really liked the interaction with the Captain. It was obvious that he loves Verity but family circumstance, he had no choice but to stop pursuing her. When Demelza first talks to him, he responded in such a way to pretend that he didn't care anymore (to hide his true feelings). That's how I felt about it. Same with Verity when they saw each other again - denial because of circumstances. Made me so sad.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

With this scene being so vague, I don't think any opinion would be argumentative! 

 

 

Just a historical note: the older system Ross belongs to is one of serfdom. His tenants pay him rent. In turn, he benefits from them because they provide him a labor force, skilled (the miners, smiths, wrights, etc.) or unskilled (domestics workers, farm hands) and protection/safety. The closest thing we've seen to the protection aspect in this series is Ross' attempt to help Jim by first appealing to Hugh Bodrugan and then Ross' testimony in court (read the book if you want to see the other example Lord-of-the-manor-protecting-his-serfs because it was cut out of both dramatizations.) The closest thing to serfdom in the US was the plantation system.

 

I understand it is serfdom. That's why I made that same point in a later post that you didn't quote.

 

There are a lot of checks and balances in today's version, but we still get abuses that hurt the masses as we always have. As Milz mentioned, Ross as a landowner implements the serfdom method of the time. The only difference is that he is portrayed as not taking advantage of the workers but most landowners would. If your crops sucked that year, too bad. You still have to pay X-amount to your landowner, and so what if you starved. Sucks to be you, serf.

Right. That's why I said, "I mean, let's not romanticize the older order of things, either, which could also lead to abuses between tenants and landlords."

[HalcyonDays]

Right. That's why I said, "I mean, let's not romanticize the older order of things, either, which could also lead to abuses between tenants and landlords."

 

Absolutely. TV always portrays things with a "romantic" spin. But none of it is any good. But there were/are a few good people out there, as we see in Ross.

[Llywela]

Eh, I daresay both systems have their pros and cons depending on all kinds of factors, in particular the individuals involved in any specific situation. So far as the show goes, I guess the point is that it is set at a time of great social upheaval, when two diametrically opposing economic systems were just beginning to clash in a major way, and that provides a good source of conflict to drive plots and character dynamics. As demonstrated a-plenty in the episodes so far! What we think about the merits of each system isn't so important as what either one represents to each of the characters, because what those characters believe in is what motivates them. Ross believes in the traditional way of doing things, for sure, because all he's seen of any other is the Warleggan approach, which he knows to cause great suffering. He believes industry should be run at a local level. But he also believes his own class should be doing more to help the poor among them! So he's caught between the two stools constantly.

[Milz]

I understand it is serfdom. That's why I made that same point in a later post that you didn't quote.

 

 

I was typing my response, so I didn't see yours.

 

No system is perfect---even if you are self-employed and your only employee is you. The mines are almost like small businesses: the miners aren't nameless faces or faceless names, living on the same land as the mine owners for generations. Due to that intimate environment, it doesn't make sense for the mine owners to treat the miners like crap. It's like in Kitchen Nightmares, the restaurant owners who treat their employees like crap have restaurants with high employee turn-over or poor workplace morale  which translates into poor customer service and failing business. When Ross got Wheal Leisure started again, I can understand why the Mellin miners liked it: Wheal Leisure is probably shorter commute than Grambler or the other mines in the area, they live side by side with the Nampara Poldarks and know them, and if Ross is financially solvent so are they in a sense that their family members who are unable to work in the mines can work for Ross (and be paid) as farm hands and domestics. So it's a win-win for everyone.

 

The Warleggans are just asses. And they are asses with inferiority complexes because they are 2 generations from the blacksmith who founded their fortune. They are in-betweens: to recently working class to be considered part of the old money and too newly rich to be considered part of the working class.

[Nampara]

Just a historical note: the older system Ross belongs to is one of serfdom.

 

There was no serfdom in England in the 18th century. The institution had been formally ended by Elizabeth I. Ross's tenants were poor, with few economic options, but they were essentially free people. They were not legally bound to the land, and could get up and go if they pleased. One might say that the system in place with the gentry and their tenants was a successor to serfdom, but the distinction is important.

[Milz]

There was no serfdom in England in the 18th century. The institution had been formally ended by Elizabeth I. Ross's tenants were poor, with few economic options, but they were essentially free people. They were not legally bound to the land, and could get up and go if they pleased. One might say that the system in place with the gentry and their tenants was a successor to serfdom, but the distinction is important.

 

That's true, but the system of landlord-tenant still persisted. It's like the share-cropper era after the Civil War in the US. Yeah, the share croppers were free, but they were still in a landlord-tenant socio-economic relationship. And sure, they were not legally bound to remain tenants, there were socio-economic barriers that prevented or made it difficult for them to leave.

 

The Warleggans managed to pull themselves out of a blacksmith's shop. Demelza married her way out. But there was a significant portion of the population who didn't----unless they emigrated, but that too was not a guarantee of moving up.

[Nampara]

That's true, but the system of landlord-tenant still persisted.

 

Yes, as my post explicitly acknowledged. It was simply necessary to point out, after multiple posts here by several people agreeing that the system depicted in Poldark was serfdom, that in fact it was not serfdom, and Ross's tenants were not serfs.

[applecrisp]

Could Ross have gotten some forward thinking ideals from the American Revolution in which he fought.  It was never perfect but those had to be interesting times.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

Could Ross have gotten some forward thinking ideals from the American Revolution in which he fought.  It was never perfect but those had to be interesting times.

 

It's an interesting thought, and one that I have wondered about a bit.  I doubt, though, that we are meant to think that Ross was specifically influenced by the American Revolution as much as we are to think that the socio-economic factors that led to the American Revolution were also impacting Britain. It won't be too long before the French Revolution, which was also rooted in great wealth disparities, will begin, and so it stands to reason that Ross - being a smart guy - can see that things need to change for people who are poor.

[Llywela]

I think also we are supposed to take from it that it has a lot to do with just who Ross is as a person - that this is just who he is, forward-thinking and compassionate, keenly aware of the suffering of people around him and with a strong sense of injustice about it, where others of his age and class might turn a blind eye. He has no crystal ball into the future. He just knows that he hates the injustice he sees in the world around him. It's part of his personality and belief system, his moral code.

 

ETA I don't think he necessarily believes though that new modern ideas are always the best solution - after all, the Warleggans represent the new social order, and he hates them. He just really thinks there must be a better way than anyone has yet come up with!

Edited July 23, 2015 by Llywela

[Milz]

Could Ross have gotten some forward thinking ideals from the American Revolution in which he fought.  It was never perfect but those had to be interesting times.

 

Maybe, maybe not. The issues that prompted the American revolution were self-governance (read: small government) and taxation. Slavery was still an institution. Indentured servitude was still an institution. Unmarried women and widows could own/buy/sell property, enter into contracts, have jobs that didn't require licenses (married women could not.)  So there was still a class system in the US based largely on race and sex.

 

Editing to add....

 

In episode 1, Ross reveals his military participation was a way to get out of some trouble he was in. So clearly he didn't join for ideological purposes.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Milz

[photo fox]

Eh, I daresay both systems have their pros and cons depending on all kinds of factors, in particular the individuals involved in any specific situation.

 

Agreed! I don't think the show is saying that one system is better than another, but rather that Ross is better.

 

Ross believes in the old system - whatever it is called - but his people fare well because he individually is a caring person, willing to make sacrifices, and clever enough to make good business decisions for himself and his employees.

 

Francis believes in the old system but his people suffer - and did before Francis inherited and got in bed with the Warleggans - because that branch of the family was not willing to sacrifice their own comfort, didn't care about their employees as individuals, and now will suffer more because of Francis's incredibly stupid decision to wager the mine.

 

George believes in the new system, and because he is Teh Evil, everyone around him will suffer.  He only cares about himself and proving that he's better than those who (he thinks) think they're better than him.  But that's a failure of the individual, not the system.

 

Ross has an extreme sense of noblesse oblige, but many (most?) of his class did not, certainly not to that level.