The Taylor Swift Topic: Teen Country Sensation to World-Dominating Pop Star

[aradia22]

Other than the video being incredible, I think something Todd says in the review is why I'm actually still on her side. "Her image got changed for her [...] It's just a last ditch attempt at spin from a woman who has badly lost control of the narrative." 

I don't believe you get a free pass to behave however you want to because you're a woman and Taylor has certainly made mistakes and isn't perfect. But how many people in the entertainment industry are perfect? She gets an irrational amount of hate. How many pop stars, celebrities, actresses, etc. have people tried to take down? Even if she didn't write an incredible song as her vehicle to do so, there's something I like about her refusing to go down without a fight and refusing to conform to anyone's image of what she should be. She's not pulling the typical pop star thing of deciding to suddenly play nice and make the traditional/old-Hollywood/look this proves I can sing/nice girl album. Even if this isn't the most elegant way to do it, there's something compelling for me in her trying to wrestle back control of the narrative. Also, again, love the video. It's bonkers and it gives me feelings.

[aradia22]

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Also, if this video preview is any indication, this could be the first time that the parents who find her a "safe" singer for their kids to listen to start to feel really uncomfortable. Is that a SEX SWING? WHAT?

Doubt it. It's a bird cage. Birds... have perches. 

[aradia22]

Quote

That "Hottest Hairstyle of 1983" mop on her head looks ridiculous.

I'm not going to shit on someone for wearing their natural hair texture.

[UYI]

1 hour ago, aradia22 said:

Doubt it. It's a bird cage. Birds... have perches. 

Oh yeah, I know that now. I posted that before the video itself was out. Even she wouldn't go that far with this new image, lol. 

And actually, she's styled a lot like Gwen Stefani in that shot. I missed that before. 

Edited September 14, 2017 by UYI

[Cranberry]

I enjoyed this, and the chorus actually makes more sense this way.

[Watermelon]

8 hours ago, aradia22 said:

Other than the video being incredible, I think something Todd says in the review is why I'm actually still on her side. "Her image got changed for her [...] It's just a last ditch attempt at spin from a woman who has badly lost control of the narrative." 

I don't believe you get a free pass to behave however you want to because you're a woman and Taylor has certainly made mistakes and isn't perfect. But how many people in the entertainment industry are perfect? She gets an irrational amount of hate. How many pop stars, celebrities, actresses, etc. have people tried to take down? Even if she didn't write an incredible song as her vehicle to do so, there's something I like about her refusing to go down without a fight and refusing to conform to anyone's image of what she should be. She's not pulling the typical pop star thing of deciding to suddenly play nice and make the traditional/old-Hollywood/look this proves I can sing/nice girl album. Even if this isn't the most elegant way to do it, there's something compelling for me in her trying to wrestle back control of the narrative. Also, again, love the video. It's bonkers and it gives me feelings.

Im not really impressed by Taylor, It's fairly easy to acknowledge everyone thinking you're awful in a mockingly surface way that requires no introspection. 

As far as the narrative goes, to a large extent that's over. Because the ones who dislike her KNOW she's trying to control the narrative. But she reads like the blonde girl from Addams Family Values aka, a victim all her life. 

[27bored]

You know, I had a thought today about "Spilled Milk" (that's my shorthand title for Taylor's song). It's a thought that I've never thought before, and to be honest I never thought I would think it. But here it goes [deep breath]:

I would really like this song better if Britney Spears had done it.

In an alternate universe, this is Britney's comeback single. I would love if she cut her hair again (maybe a pixie cut) and maybe became a brunette and sang every word of this song, and I'm including the weird message part towards the end. It would be like, yay Crazy Britney is back! I think I would have a lot more fun hate-listening to it because I would think Britney is doing what she loves to do: putting on a show. With Taylor, she sounds earnest and serious, and since I think Taylor's a good songwriter and a smart chick, it doesn't work well for her. Because I think she kinda knows better.

[aradia22]

@27bored Now that you say it, I can totally see it as a Britney song. 

[aradia22]

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If we take a second to be honest with ourselves, we might realize that this isn’t about Taylor at all, but more about us — as individuals, and as a collective society. It’s arguably easier to get angry at Taylor for not showing up to the Women’s March than it is to confront our Trump-supporting family members at Thanksgiving. It’s much less taxing to tweet at @TaylorSwift13 and call her a fake feminist than it is to inspect our own shortcomings. Could Taylor do better? Sure. But, more importantly, we all could do better, and if we put as much effort into our own activism as we do into insulting Taylor for what we perceive to be self-serving behavior, we’d probably see more progress than one celebrity can do with a single tweet.

The fact of the matter is that Taylor Swift is not going to lead the resistance. She was never going to be our “savior,” and she probably never will. She also may never evolve artistically beyond the trope of “the girl who was wronged and seeking revenge,” even while poking fun at herself in the process. She may continue to re-invent herself over and over, just shedding layers of skin (yes, like a snake) only to reveal what was already there.

So, let her. Let her be Taylor; let her make pop music filled with lyrics perfect for those angsty Instagram captions. Let her take fans on scavenger hunts for hidden “13” clues and possible shade at Kanye and Katy. Let her be who she is — who she always was. It’s time to stop projecting who we want Taylor to be onto Taylor herself. The more we do this, the more we’re going to be let down, feeling justified in this collective anger that is, in actuality, so misplaced. At the end of the day, it’s on us — not Taylor, not any other musician, not any other celebrity — to be the voices we so desperately want to hear.

https://www.bustle.com/p/do-we-hate-on-taylor-swift-because-we-actually-hate-ourselves-79380

[WendyCR72]

Nah. She just annoys me. No deeper than that!   :-)  And I certainly don't hate myself or base my worth on celebrities. That article is...interesting, I guess.

We love who we love, we hate who we hate! It's all good from where I sit. As long as we can respect both sides, I say live and let live.

[UYI]

On 9/15/2017 at 9:02 PM, 27bored said:

You know, I had a thought today about "Spilled Milk" (that's my shorthand title for Taylor's song). It's a thought that I've never thought before, and to be honest I never thought I would think it. But here it goes [deep breath]:

I would really like this song better if Britney Spears had done it.

In an alternate universe, this is Britney's comeback single. I would love if she cut her hair again (maybe a pixie cut) and maybe became a brunette and sang every word of this song, and I'm including the weird message part towards the end. It would be like, yay Crazy Britney is back! I think I would have a lot more fun hate-listening to it because I would think Britney is doing what she loves to do: putting on a show. With Taylor, she sounds earnest and serious, and since I think Taylor's a good songwriter and a smart chick, it doesn't work well for her. Because I think she kinda knows better.

I hate to be THAT person, but the Crazy Britney era almost got her killed. I have a hard time thinking that would be a good thing to bring back, since in that case it actually meant her sanity was gone and her sons were taken away from her.

But anyway, back to Taylor. :)

[truthaboutluv]

8 hours ago, UYI said:

I hate to be THAT person, but the Crazy Britney era almost got her killed. I have a hard time thinking that would be a good thing to bring back, since in that case it actually meant her sanity was gone and her sons were taken away from her.

But you know, fun single to hate listen to - awesome.  Woo-hoo! By the way, Britney actually never truly got better from that time in her life. I'm pretty sure she's still on whatever medication she was put on and the once sweet, fun loving girl with that loud cackle isn't there anymore. Britney is so painfully self conscious and uncomfortable most of the time that it's just sad when you remember the person she used to be. Like she's just a shell of herself. She does seem a lot better though so there is that. But it's like part of that woman's spirit died years ago. Moving on...

 

21 hours ago, aradia22 said:

https://www.bustle.com/p/do-we-hate-on-taylor-swift-because-we-actually-hate-ourselves-79380

As the poster above noted, nope not that deep for me either. I love when these entertainment publications almost try to shame people for not liking some celebrity whose ass they're so far up. Buzzfeed has also been trying this "you're just awful and a hater" crap about those who don't like Taylor. As a person who has always given Taylor her props as a songwriter/producer (ain't nobody convincing me that she's not a mediocre vocalist), I will never be shamed over calling out her bullshit. I have been listening to Taylor Swift since her first album and that includes reading her interviews and profiles about her. And no one will ever convince me that girlfriend isn't a shrewd as hell, passive aggressive person who loves playing victim. No, she's not evil but this narrative of the world only coming for her because they hate strong women is bullshit. 

Edited September 17, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[UYI]

6 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

But you know, fun single to hate listen to - awesome.  Woo-hoo! By the way, Britney actually never truly got better from that time in her life. I'm pretty sure she's still on whatever medication she was put on and the once sweet, fun loving girl with that loud cackle isn't there anymore. Britney is so painfully self conscious and uncomfortable most of the time that it's just sad when you remember the person she used to be. Like she's just a shell of herself. She does seem a lot better though so there is that. But it's like part of that woman's spirit died years ago. Moving on...

 

Oh sure, I've noticed all of that. I know some say it seems like she shouldn't be under her dad's conservatorship anymore, but after almost 10 years, I think it's clear there's a very legitimate reason why she still is. And Piece of Me is an AMAZING song, no doubt. 

[27bored]

12 hours ago, UYI said:

I hate to be THAT person, but the Crazy Britney era almost got her killed. I have a hard time thinking that would be a good thing to bring back, since in that case it actually meant her sanity was gone and her sons were taken away from her.

But anyway, back to Taylor. :)

Well, in fairness to me, I wasn't talking about Blackout-era Britney. I mentioned her cutting her hair because, well, I think it's time to reinvent herself. I'm aware of the last time she shaved her head, but I don't think she should go that far. But I would like to see her with a sportier 'do. It might make her look a bit younger. Other than that, if she did this song, it would be a return to form of the fun, trashy Britney we all know and love. We've had ten years of the boring, catatonic, introverted Britney who sleepwalks through choreography and seems bored by her own manufactured sexiness. No fun.

9 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

But you know, fun single to hate listen to - awesome.  Woo-hoo! By the way, Britney actually never truly got better from that time in her life. I'm pretty sure she's still on whatever medication she was put on and the once sweet, fun loving girl with that loud cackle isn't there anymore. Britney is so painfully self conscious and uncomfortable most of the time that it's just sad when you remember the person she used to be. Like she's just a shell of herself. She does seem a lot better though so there is that. But it's like part of that woman's spirit died years ago. Moving on...

 

As the poster above noted, nope not that deep for me either. I love when these entertainment publications almost try to shame people for not liking some celebrity whose ass they're so far up. Buzzfeed has also been trying this "you're just awful and a hater" crap about those who don't like Taylor. As a person who has always given Taylor her props as a songwriter/producer (ain't nobody convincing me that she's not a mediocre vocalist), I will never be shamed over calling out her bullshit. I have been listening to Taylor Swift since her first album and that includes reading her interviews and profiles about her. And no one will ever convince me that girlfriend isn't a shrewd as hell, passive aggressive person who loves playing victim. No, she's not evil but this narrative of the world only coming for her because they hate strong women is bullshit. 

You're right about Britney. She's so...dead behind the eyes. It's actually a little sad. I really hope she gets to a place where she can get off whatever medication she's on, because she is like a weird cyborg version of herself.

Also in agreement with you about the thinkpieces that are trying to make it our problem that Tay Tay be cray cray. Girl, please. If anything, Taylor's undermining herself. She wasn't content just being the cute Country chick -- she had to be Katy Perry redux. I think she's a good songwriter, a serviceable singer (I get the feeling she might be a slightly better singer than her material, but too much vocalizing = no radio play), and savvy at marketing herself.

I do think maybe Taylor gets too much flack at times, but Taylor always seems to be pettier than I'd prefer from someone who is young, pretty, rich, and famous. I think it's an issue of fairness than truth, if that makes any sense. I do think Taylor kinda likes the drama, but it's unfair to act like she's the only one.

[UYI]

There actually IS an interesting think piece by Sady Doyle--who, for the record, couldn't stand Taylor before a lot of people even knew who she was (when she was more country)--which points out that, in many ways, Taylor held on to a certain image for a long time to hang on to a larger audience, only to STILL find a similar backlash to, to bring her up again, Britney. Very much worth a read.

http://www.elle.com/culture/celebrities/a12119630/taylor-swift-downfall/

She has another good piece about Britney, which I'll post in her thread. And her new book, Trainwreck, is great. I highly recommend it.

[aradia22]

Re: Elle article

I don't think this is true about LWYMMD but this tweet is hilarious and I would watch that musical. 

Also, I didn't even get the Kim thing with the jewelry and the bathtub. I kind of forgot that had happened. 

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Swift’s downfall is depressingly predictable. We spent years building this woman up as an image of impossible perfection, only to gleefully rip her to shreds the moment we learned that her “perfect” image was something she put work and artifice into creating. We never seem to stop and think that demanding perfection of our female pop stars is what leads us into these situations in the first place.

I think this is a more articulate version of the Bustle argument.

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while #Team Maybe Let’s Just Focus On The Rich White Men Who Run The World And Profit Immensely From The Idea That Women Are Incapable Of Solidarity is, as always, terminally under-represented.

Yes

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Swift has reached the top of her field; she’s managed the kind of success that most women, and most human beings, will never experience. The only next step that leaves for her, in a culture that’s profoundly threatened by female visibility and power, is to fail, fall apart, or die. Swift knows this. It’s why her single — and probably her album cover — both reference the best-known example of the phenomenon, Britney Spears.

Yes. Or in my mind, to apologize, prostrate herself before critics who will never like her regardless, and attempt to win back fans by transforming back into a recognizable, acceptable feminine archetype.

I do disagree with the writer that Swift was much of "sexy virgin" and played into patriarchal ideals as much as the writer claims.

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She’s also frequently accused of “playing the victim,” whereas the pose of victimhood is the only chance most “nice” women get to sound angry. Swift played the eternal 98-pound weakling, getting sand kicked in her face by bullies, in part because she’d risk being tagged a bitch if she ever admitted fault. She is who she is to avoid our hatred — but we hate her for being who we asked her to be.

Fascinating argument which I will have to think more about

[UYI]

8 hours ago, aradia22 said:

 

I do disagree with the writer that Swift was much of "sexy virgin" and played into patriarchal ideals as much as the writer claims.

 

She wasn't saying that Taylor did that; that was Britney. She was saying that, in order to avoid the back lash Britney got for being too sexual, Taylor went in the opposite direction: Wearing modest clothing and emphasizing romance over sex, not wearing outfits/bathing suits that expose her belly button, and when she did start showing signs of sex in her songs, it was subtle enough that some could still argue that she wasn't (I would say that she has gone further away from that, even during the Red Era, while still holding on, to some extent, to some of the stink of "but I'm much better than THAT type of pop star" that turns some people off of her, which makes some of her more vindictive songs even more hypocritical to me, in my opinion, but there you go). 

To be fair, Taylor avoided the sex question in her first Rolling Stone interview in 2009 by saying that she preferred not to say either way whether she was a virgin or having sex, so she did subvert the Jessica Simpson "virgin until marriage" model in some form.

Edited September 18, 2017 by UYI

[UYI]

Here's Taylor's 60 Minutes interview from 2011 (the Speak Now era), where she talks about why she felt she had a responsibility to be a role model (YMMV).

[vibeology]

13 hours ago, 27bored said:

Well, in fairness to me, I wasn't talking about Blackout-era Britney. I mentioned her cutting her hair because, well, I think it's time to reinvent herself. I'm aware of the last time she shaved her head, but I don't think she should go that far. But I would like to see her with a sportier 'do. It might make her look a bit younger. Other than that, if she did this song, it would be a return to form of the fun, trashy Britney we all know and love. We've had ten years of the boring, catatonic, introverted Britney who sleepwalks through choreography and seems bored by her own manufactured sexiness. No fun.

You're right about Britney. She's so...dead behind the eyes. It's actually a little sad. I really hope she gets to a place where she can get off whatever medication she's on, because she is like a weird cyborg version of herself.

Taking this to Britney's thread because I have thoughts!

[UYI]

BTW, here's the Rolling Stone story I mentioned from 2009:

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/the-very-pink-very-perfect-life-of-taylor-swift-20090305

It really is striking how young Taylor seems here at 19, compared to Britney at that same age, at least in terms of public image. 

Edited September 18, 2017 by UYI

[CaughtOnTape]

Oh my God...

I am so sick and tired of people trying to rationalize and hand wave the image Taylor herself built as a society induced consequence.  Bullshit.

She played into it.  She controlled it.  She wrote the songs and then played the coy little sweet girl when asked.  She's not and never has been a strong woman.

Please.

[aradia22]

Quote

She wasn't saying that Taylor did that; that was Britney. She was saying that, in order to avoid the back lash Britney got for being too sexual, Taylor went in the opposite direction: Wearing modest clothing and emphasizing romance over sex, not wearing outfits/bathing suits that expose her belly button, and when she did start showing signs of sex in her songs, it was subtle enough that some could still argue that she wasn't (I would say that she has gone further away from that, even during the Red Era, while still holding on, to some extent, to some of the stink of "but I'm much better than THAT type of pop star" that turns some people off of her, which makes some of her more vindictive songs even more hypocritical to me, in my opinion, but there you go). 

This is a whole thing to unpack but as a quick reply I'd say that Taylor is helped by her body type. She's very tall and slim (as opposed to being curvy). She has a more model-esque type of body so even when she wore short skirts, crop tops, low necklines, etc. it didn't seem very revealing. But I also think the relationship between the body and actual sexuality is complicated and no she hasn't been so overt as other pop stars in shaking her butt and asking you to objectify her. 

[UYI]

2 hours ago, CaughtOnTape said:

Oh my God...

I am so sick and tired of people trying to rationalize and hand wave the image Taylor herself built as a society induced consequence.  Bullshit.

She played into it.  She controlled it.  She wrote the songs and then played the coy little sweet girl when asked.  She's not and never has been a strong woman.

Please.

Oh trust me, I agree with a lot of this. And Sady Doyle has criticized her more than almost any journalist I've ever seen, going back, I'm pretty sure, to even before Kanye had bum-rushed the stage at the VMAs in 2009. She was on to Taylor before almost anyone else, regarding her songwriting issues/problematic ways. I have a lot of issues with plenty of those think pieces about how people are too hard on Taylor, but Sady's piece was coming from, in my opinion, anyway, a somewhat different angle/place than many of those others do. Amy Zimmerman from The Daily Beast has a lot of good critical (VERY critical) pieces on her, too.

25 minutes ago, aradia22 said:

This is a whole thing to unpack but as a quick reply I'd say that Taylor is helped by her body type. She's very tall and slim (as opposed to being curvy). She has a more model-esque type of body so even when she wore short skirts, crop tops, low necklines, etc. it didn't seem very revealing. But I also think the relationship between the body and actual sexuality is complicated and no she hasn't been so overt as other pop stars in shaking her butt and asking you to objectify her. 

No, I agree with that. As a woman born the same year as her, but is shorter and curvier, it's hard not to notice. :(

That said, she has not only obviously gained weight in this last year or so, but it's clear as day that she has breast implants now (she may have even gotten them years before, but they were subtle enough back then not to notice them). She certainly wasn't hiding them in her most recent video (the black leather squad scene). And yet, I was very annoyed when one of her PR people denied it last year, because while bigger boobs can come from weight gain, I don't think those did. Not at all. 

(And I don't mean to shame people for getting plastic surgery by saying that, either. It just seems like, in this case, it would have been smarter to say "no comment" or "it's nobody's business". By denying it, it just looks like she lied, because, again, I REALLY think those came from a plastic surgeon's office. Shades of Renee Zellweger and her OBVIOUS lie regarding her plastic surgery denials.) 

Edited September 18, 2017 by UYI

[aradia22]

I agree that she probably got breast implants but I think that's a separate point from whether she was previously more modest and is now more sexual. Again, stuff on the body vs. sexuality.

[GaT]

1 hour ago, aradia22 said:

This is a whole thing to unpack but as a quick reply I'd say that Taylor is helped by her body type. She's very tall and slim (as opposed to being curvy). She has a more model-esque type of body so even when she wore short skirts, crop tops, low necklines, etc. it didn't seem very revealing. But I also think the relationship between the body and actual sexuality is complicated and no she hasn't been so overt as other pop stars in shaking her butt and asking you to objectify her. 

Whether you like her or not, I've always thought the fact that she doesn't use sex to sell every song is a big plus in her favor. Every time I see a Demi Lovato, Ariana Grande, or even a Britney video, all I can see is them shaking everything for everyone to look at, the song is irrelevant. Taylor may not put out the type of music I'm into, but there's a big difference between a bad song & a song that just isn't your style. She writes her own songs, she plays her own instruments, & she keeps her ass out of my face. I'm not a huge Taylor fan, but I can respect what she does.

[UYI]

47 minutes ago, GaT said:

Whether you like her or not, I've always thought the fact that she doesn't use sex to sell every song is a big plus in her favor. Every time I see a Demi Lovato, Ariana Grande, or even a Britney video, all I can see is them shaking everything for everyone to look at, the song is irrelevant. Taylor may not put out the type of music I'm into, but there's a big difference between a bad song & a song that just isn't your style. She writes her own songs, she plays her own instruments, & she keeps her ass out of my face. I'm not a huge Taylor fan, but I can respect what she does.

On the other hand, being a role model shouldn't always be about what clothes you wear. Taylor may largely keep her clothes on (although her most recent videos/looks are disputing that theory a bit), but mean girl behavior, IMO, is more harmful than a lack of clothing. I agree that young women shouldn't be forced to wear clothing that emphasizes sexuality, but there are other factors to consider as well. 

And not to pin this on her entirely--I certainly don't think she courted this particular audience on purpose--but when you can't even bring yourself to denounce your large and VOCAL neo-Nazi fan base, because you are so scared to look political to even your most offensive fans, you have MUCH bigger issues in play than wearing a bikini or shaking your ass in a music video. Having a representative give a statement in response to an online article isn't enough, IMO. If this is going to be stopped, she has to say something herself, especially after everything that went down in Charlottesville last month.

https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/ae5x8a/cant-shake-it-off-how-taylor-swift-became-a-nazi-idol

http://www.thedailybeast.com/its-time-for-taylor-swift-to-denounce-her-neo-nazi-admirers

http://themuse.jezebel.com/why-the-creator-of-feminist-taylor-swift-twitter-wants-1798668808

Edited September 18, 2017 by UYI

[GaT]

7 minutes ago, UYI said:

On the other hand, being a role model shouldn't always be about what clothes you wear. Taylor may largely keep her clothes on (although her most recent videos/looks are disputing that theory a bit), but mean girl behavior, IMO, is more harmful than a lack of clothing. I agree that young women shouldn't be forced to wear clothing that emphasizes sexuality, but there are other factors to consider as well. 

And not to pin this on her entirely, but when you can't even bring yourself to denounce your large and VOCAL neo-Nazi fan base, because you are so scared to look political to even your most offensive fans, you have MUCH bigger issues in play than wearing a bikini or shaking your ass in a music video.

https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/ae5x8a/cant-shake-it-off-how-taylor-swift-became-a-nazi-idol

http://www.thedailybeast.com/its-time-for-taylor-swift-to-denounce-her-neo-nazi-admirers

http://themuse.jezebel.com/why-the-creator-of-feminist-taylor-swift-twitter-wants-1798668808

While I am most certainly anti nazi & think everyone should denounce them, when they're saying crap like this

Quote

It is also an established fact that Taylor Swift is secretly a Nazi and is simply waiting for the time when Donald Trump makes it safe for her to come out and announce her Aryan agenda to the world. Probably, she will be betrothed to Trump's son, and they will be crowned American royalty.

Then I don't think they're so much nazis as they are crazies. Anything she says is just going to give them more press & publicity, not make her look more "political". 

[truthaboutluv]

Was wondering when someone would bring the neo-Nazi stuff over and the argument that her responding in any way would just give power to it. And to that I say, bullshit. To be clear, I do not need Taylor Swift to get political, to talk about politics and political issues, to say who she voted for, etc. Great if she wants to but I have never believed that celebrities owe the public that. However, when Taylor's image and her music is being used by a hate group, I would think she would do everything in her power to stop it.

This is the woman whose people went after some broke ass young people on Etsy for using her image on some homemade stuff they were selling. And to be clear, that is her right. She shuts down any unauthorized videos of her music, whether fan videos, even videos from her tours. Because it's all copyrighted material. Yet, nothing about her image being attached to a hate group? Seriously? No cease and desist letter to let these people know that she doesn't want her image used in any way or form that is without her approval? Okay....

Edited September 18, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[UYI]

And Breitbart tweeted her lyrics all day after LWYMMD came out. I mean, Jesus.

I will say, though, when Tomi Lahren tweeted about the song with praise (sounds right to me!), some of her fans reacted with disgust, which I appreciated. 

[Annber03]

Quote

"It is also an established fact that Taylor Swift is secretly a Nazi and is simply waiting for the time when Donald Trump makes it safe for her to come out and announce her Aryan agenda to the world. Probably, she will be betrothed to Trump's son, and they will be crowned American royalty."

*Blinks*

...what?

How fucking stupid are some people, seriously? 

[UYI]

I think what happened is that neo-Nazis latched on to a blonde haired blue eyed pop star who appealed to more conservative audiences (from country music, of course), and one who wasn't seen as obviously sexual, and ran straight into La La Land with the rest. 

[Annber03]

6 minutes ago, UYI said:

a blonde haired blue eyed pop star who appealed to more conservative audiences (from country music, of course)

This comment reminds me, I've always found it really amusing to hear people try and paint country music as a conservative, more family-friendly type of music. 'Cause nothing says "conservative" and "family-friendly" like songs about destroying your boyfriend's car ("Before He Cheats"), getting drunk, cheating (how many country stars past and present have had affairs again?), and other things of that sort, right? 

[CaughtOnTape]

17 hours ago, Annber03 said:

This comment reminds me, I've always found it really amusing to hear people try and paint country music as a conservative, more family-friendly type of music. 'Cause nothing says "conservative" and "family-friendly" like songs about destroying your boyfriend's car ("Before He Cheats"), getting drunk, cheating (how many country stars past and present have had affairs again?), and other things of that sort, right? 

I think you're missing the point.  The country music establishment paints itself that way and so does Taylor.  

And the issue here is that Taylor Swift is allowing her image to be used by a neo-Nazi group without a word being said to them. 

But I mean....go ahead with the distraction I guess....

Edited September 19, 2017 by CaughtOnTape

[Annber03]

1 hour ago, CaughtOnTape said:

I think you're missing the point.  The country music establishment paints itself that way and so does Taylor.  

And the issue here is that Taylor Swift is allowing her image to be used by a neo-Nazi group without a word being said to them. 

But I mean....go ahead with the distraction I guess....

Uh, yeah, I know that's how they label themselves, and I know what the main discussion initially was. I wasn't trying to be distracting, and I do agree with you and others about the issue at hand. UYI's post just reminded me of something that's always struck me about the country music industry/genre in general and I just made a brief side comment on that, was all. 

[aradia22]

Quote

On the other hand, being a role model shouldn't always be about what clothes you wear. Taylor may largely keep her clothes on (although her most recent videos/looks are disputing that theory a bit), but mean girl behavior, IMO, is more harmful than a lack of clothing. I agree that young women shouldn't be forced to wear clothing that emphasizes sexuality, but there are other factors to consider as well. 

Maybe it's because I don't see most of them in concert (I go to concerts, just not ones where I have to pay $100 to sit in the back of a stadium) but the lack of clothing doesn't bother me too much. Certainly, a lot of female pop acts are problematic in that respect. Where it bothers me is in the content of the lyrics. 

As for the neo-nazi thing, I don't know. I expect Taylor Swift to put out music. I really don't care about her feminism or her squads or her politics because I don't need that from celebrities and expecting it just leads to disappointment. Even those who espouse certain beliefs usually have a shallow understanding of them when they're actually called upon to speak on the topic. Am I thrilled about her refusing to denounce some of her "fans"? No. Am I horrified and angry? Also no. I suspect there's some lawyers or PR people giving her advice. Obviously, she could do what she wants but she's never struck me as the kind of person who makes a move like this without thinking it through. Taylor's missteps happen when she does something thinking it'll be received one way and then gets unexpected (on her part) backlash. She's not a Kanye or Britney who just flies off the handle or gets in trouble for being messy or unfiltered.

[UYI]

On 9/20/2017 at 1:10 PM, aradia22 said:

 

As for the neo-nazi thing, I don't know. I expect Taylor Swift to put out music. I really don't care about her feminism or her squads or her politics because I don't need that from celebrities and expecting it just leads to disappointment. Even those who espouse certain beliefs usually have a shallow understanding of them when they're actually called upon to speak on the topic. Am I thrilled about her refusing to denounce some of her "fans"? No. Am I horrified and angry? Also no. I suspect there's some lawyers or PR people giving her advice. Obviously, she could do what she wants but she's never struck me as the kind of person who makes a move like this without thinking it through. Taylor's missteps happen when she does something thinking it'll be received one way and then gets unexpected (on her part) backlash. She's not a Kanye or Britney who just flies off the handle or gets in trouble for being messy or unfiltered.

I guess what stands out here for me is that I can't think of any other pop star who that sort of vocal fan base among Neo-Nazis; she is literally the only one among her contemporaries to attract that sort of fan base (publicly, anyway). There are other artists and bands who have that kind of fan base, but not the kind that usually attract either a very young (mostly female) audience or even a specifically mainstream audience. And the two examples I can think of have denounced them--Depeche Mode was said to be the soundtrack of Neo-Nazis, and the band did not hesitate in telling them to get fucked. And when one of the Neo-Nazis in Charlottesville was seen wearing a Johnny Cash t-shirt, his daughter--fellow country artist Rosanne Cash--wrote a long open letter on Facebook--one that was also signed by her brothers and sisters--where she expressed her anger and disgust at seeing that shirt being worn at the rally, and made it crystal clear that her father was a man who practiced love and tolerance toward people of all races and backgrounds, and were he alive today, he would be horrified to see a shirt bearing his image at a rally that practiced such terrible hate and intolerance. Now granted, Depeche Mode is an alternative rock/New Wave band, and Rosanne Cash is largely considered to be an alt country artist, a subgenre which is known to be FAR more left-wing than its mainstream counterpart in terms of artists and song material. It may be safer for them to speak out. But they DID still speak out. And even Rosanne speaking on behalf of her late father posed a risk, as Johnny Cash has a fan base of both fans who wouldn't necessarily listen to country, AND fans who not only listen to most country music, but who more likely than not are considerably to the right of a lot of the views Johnny Cash most likely held during his lifetime. But Rosanne wrote that letter anyway, and I'm forever grateful to her that she did.

 

All it takes is one Tweet, one Instagram post, one public statement. Something that indicates that Taylor Swift does not hold the views of the Neo-Nazis who have adopted her as their "Aryan Goddess" (shiver). Yes, there are representatives who have responded to thinkpieces online on this issue, but clearly not enough people have seen them.  It would make MUCH more of an impact if she did it herself. No one is asking her to say what political party she supports, they are only asking that she be willing to denounce a group of people that hate and seek to kill people of color, a group of people who seem to have a lot of love of her for some reason or another. If I were her, I wouldn't have to think twice about it. 

Edited September 22, 2017 by UYI

[UYI]

Oh no, you guys. This just sounds like a DISASTER. This basic white girl (coming from someone who might be called a basic white girl by some herself, granted) trying to infuse more hip-hop/rap sounding stuff into her work. Fair or not, I'm already cringing at the thought of what the full song will sound like. UGH.

[vibeology]

It sounds like La Cucaracha. 

[Ohwell]

Has she lost her damn mind?

[UYI]

She didn't rap, Praise Jesus, but she has REALLY let her lyrical content go to shit.

[Cranberry]

I don't hate this one as much as the last two, but I don't like it, either. I agree, the lyrics are really basic. I don't understand this album.

[UYI]

For someone who has a history of both slut-shaming AND saying she doesn't need to take her clothes off for attention, having a music video where she appears to be naked makes her look...desperate for attention, maybe? I'm sure all the parents who held her up as a role model (fair or not) feel REALLY stupid right now.

[Neko]

Is she trying to be Lady Gaga?  Because she can't pull it off, at all.  What is this?  What is she doing?

[CaughtOnTape]

Flailing.

She's not as popular as she used to be.  Her past deeds have caught up to her and people are tired.  

[Neko]

3 hours ago, CaughtOnTape said:

Flailing.

She's not as popular as she used to be.  Her past deeds have caught up to her and people are tired.  

Is that really true?  Because I have to listen to the radio at work, and LWYMMD comes on, like, 20 times a day.   The song sucks, but people must want to hear it.

[UYI]

14 minutes ago, Sweet Summer Child said:

Is that really true?  Because I have to listen to the radio at work, and LWYMMD comes on, like, 20 times a day.   The song sucks, but people must want to hear it.

It was the first single, and the hiatus she took (by her standards, at least) made people curious. I have a feeling Reputation might have a good first week or two, but start gradually sinking more and more after that. This is NOT going to be a 1989 Part Deux situation, in terms of album sales. And I have a feeling her critical reviews for this album will be, at BEST, mixed. 

[truthaboutluv]

I thought the first two songs were bad enough but Gorgeous is a whole other level of mediocre. You know, I've always been one to give Taylor her props, even while calling out her bullshit. And while I will always call out the b.s. and seethe over 1989 winning AOTY over Kendrick Lamar's To Pimp A Butterfly, I could acknowledge that 1989 was a solid pop album. And all her other albums were pretty good too - Red was amazing, loved Fearless, etc. I don't know what the hell is going on here. That said, every artist eventually has their flop album. This may be hers. Oh I'm sure it'll sell but that doesn't mean it'll be good.

[aradia22]

Quote

Flailing.

She's not as popular as she used to be.  Her past deeds have caught up to her and people are tired.  

Reports of her demise have been greatly exaggerated. 

Look What You Made Me Do has grown on me, especially after the video. I'm closer to @truthaboutluv in my opinion. Gorgeous is... not great. I liked the line about the cat but I wish there was more of that. There's not enough humor and it's not much of a seduction song. It's... not enough of a thing. That said I'm sure this album will still sell well. And if you're in one of the other music threads, you'll know that I think a ton of artists I like have been putting out mediocre AF music lately. I think there's something in the air. Or the Swedish writers/producers are off their game. I'm still holding out hope that there will be other tracks I like on the album. Would I like her to go back to the stronger songwriting of Fearless and Speak Now? Sure. I was lukewarm at first but I think I've ended up liking 1989 more than Red. I feel like Taylor should be bringing the specificity of her songwriting to pop music, not letting pop music make her sound and her content more bland. But all she seemed to learn from Formation (and maybe Bad Blood) is how to film impressive visuals instead of writing great stand alone songs.

I'm still here for this unless this is all an attempt to relaunch her acting career and pull a Madonna. In which case... NO, bad Taylor. 

[CaughtOnTape]

13 hours ago, aradia22 said:

Reports of her demise have been greatly exaggerated. 

I haven't seen a report of a thing pertaining to her.  This would be my own observation.  There was a time where any website I pulled up for any reason would be a never ending barrage of all the "charity" she's bestowed or some song she's released.  Every awards show had her as the top bill.  Every radio station had her on heavy rotation.

I haven't seen that this time.  I purposely try to steer clear of her (other than this thread apparently) and when 1989 was it it's height it was hard, she was ALWAYS in my face.  And since she's released this album I've stayed blissfully unaware of anything she's done.  I haven't heard this song or the other one she released after LWYMMD and I listen to the radio frequently enough that if she was in as heavy rotation as she used to be, I would have heard something.

Sure, the standards of a flop for her are 10 million instead of 20 million sold but AFAIC any indication that she's losing her grip on the cojones of this country and I'm ecstatic.  Because I am so done.

[truthaboutluv]

36 minutes ago, CaughtOnTape said:

I haven't seen a report of a thing pertaining to her.  This would be my own observation.  There was a time where any website I pulled up for any reason would be a never ending barrage of all the "charity" she's bestowed or some song she's released.  Every awards show had her as the top bill.  Every radio station had her on heavy rotation.

I haven't seen that this time.  I purposely try to steer clear of her (other than this thread apparently) and when 1989 was it it's height it was hard, she was ALWAYS in my face.  And since she's released this album I've stayed blissfully unaware of anything she's done.  I haven't heard this song or the other one she released after LWYMMD and I listen to the radio frequently enough that if she was in as heavy rotation as she used to be, I would have heard something.

Sure, the standards of a flop for her are 10 million instead of 20 million sold but AFAIC any indication that she's losing her grip on the cojones of this country and I'm ecstatic.  Because I am so done.

I will say that one reason for her lack of visibility is that she's decided not to do any major press/media for the album. I think she thinks it adds to the mystique and interest of the whole thing (though not really for me). When LLWYMD was first teased on her social media and then she released the album cover and title, I believe she had some caption about how there would be no more explanations or something to that effect. Essentially, the point I guess is that the album will do all the talking for her. Great...except so far everything she's released has sucked, IMO. 

But yes, that might be why you're not seeing her constantly in your face. Also, there hasn't been any major music award shows since she's released her new material. The American Music Awards will take place next month, so we'll see if she shows up there and she missed the eligibility period for next year's Grammy Awards, so she won't be nominated for anything. I won't be surprised if she still shows up as a presenter. As I said, I don't doubt for a minute that the album was still sell very well, especially in the first week or so. That said, there's definitely been a slight shift regarding the response to her music, particularly with the critics. She still has quite a few up her ass but there's been way more mixed reactions to these songs than she's had in a long time. 

Edited October 24, 2017 by truthaboutluv