Lorelai and Luke

[stan4]

So...trying to understand what Luke sees in Lorelai.

I get respecting her working hard to raise her kid.  And she's smart.

 

1. But her eating/health habits are horrible (and he is a health nut).

2. Her money  management is a disaster (and he is pragmatic and disciplined).

3. She's pretty upbeat (while he is debbie downer).

4.  She wants to try new things (he seems to loathe trying anything new).

5. She lets her kid eat a constant stream of garbage, avoid exercise, and practice erratic sleep habits.

 

You could make the argument that opposites attract, but 1, 2, and 5 would make me completely lose respect for someone and that would make the completely sexually unattractive.

[elang4]

4 minutes ago, stan4 said:

So...trying to understand what Luke sees in Lorelai.

I get respecting her working hard to raise her kid.  And she's smart.

 

1. But her eating/health habits are horrible (and he is a health nut).

2. Her money  management is a disaster (and he is pragmatic and disciplined).

3. She's pretty upbeat (while he is debbie downer).

4.  She wants to try new things (he seems to loathe trying anything new).

5. She lets her kid eat a constant stream of garbage, avoid exercise, and practice erratic sleep habits.

 

You could make the argument that opposites attract, but 1, 2, and 5 would make me completely lose respect for someone and that would make the completely sexually unattractive.

She is also never boring (you can tell Luke enjoys bantering with her), she drops everything to help him out (eg, Louie’s funeral, bailing him out of jail) and she respects and really appreciates their friendship (she shows that by her speech at the end of the Romeo and Juliet episode). I agree she has flaws but I can see what Luke sees in her. She may have some negative points (I agree with you about some of them) but she also has positive attributes as well. That’s my opinion anyway. ?

[stan4]

39 minutes ago, elang4 said:

She is also never boring (you can tell Luke enjoys bantering with her), she drops everything to help him out (eg, Louie’s funeral, bailing him out of jail) and she respects and really appreciates their friendship (she shows that by her speech at the end of the Romeo and Juliet episode). I agree she has flaws but I can see what Luke sees in her. She may have some negative points (I agree with you about some of them) but she also has positive attributes as well. That’s my opinion anyway. ?

She's been there for him but has treated him poorly, been rude to him, taken him for granted, and let him down even more.

[elang4]

6 minutes ago, stan4 said:

She's been there for him but has treated him poorly, been rude to him, taken him for granted, and let him down even more.

I’m not saying she hasn’t. Just that I can understand what Luke would see in her. Plus he loves Rory too so I think that was part of it as well. He loved them both.

[stan4]

1 hour ago, elang4 said:

I’m not saying she hasn’t. Just that I can understand what Luke would see in her. Plus he loves Rory too so I think that was part of it as well. He loved them both.

Interesting.

I always thought he was fond of Rory, but bc he was exposed to her through Lorelai.  Bc she was her kid (and a good kid, too - but he really never deals with or likes any other kids, good or bad or whatever).

 

Like Paul Anka...doesn't care for dogs but constant exposure to Lorelai's dog gets him to start taking care of him, feeding him steak, etc.

 

Then I also wondered if it was a way to get closer to Lorelai.

[elang4]

37 minutes ago, stan4 said:

Interesting.

I always thought he was fond of Rory, but bc he was exposed to her through Lorelai.  Bc she was her kid (and a good kid, too - but he really never deals with or likes any other kids, good or bad or whatever).

 

Like Paul Anka...doesn't care for dogs but constant exposure to Lorelai's dog gets him to start taking care of him, feeding him steak, etc.

 

Then I also wondered if it was a way to get closer to Lorelai.

No I don’t think he used Rory or Paul Anka to get closer to Lorelai. He had his own relationship with Rory separate to Lorelai and I think he came to genuinely care for Paul Anka as well.

[FictionLover]

2 hours ago, stan4 said:

She's been there for him but has treated him poorly, been rude to him, taken him for granted, and let him down even more.

That goes both ways...especially season 6!

I think FanFiction has made me love the couple more than the show ever did. Especially the revival.

[stan4]

22 hours ago, elang4 said:

He had his own relationship with Rory separate to Lorelai and I think he came to genuinely care for Paul Anka as well.

 You know, I keep hearing people say that, and I used to think that as well. But if you really think about it, what relationship did he have with her that was outside of knowing what was going on in someone's life because of proximity because of all the eating she did at Luke's?

 

 Did they hang out with each other outside of Luke's? Did he ever advise her about anything? Did he ever teach her how to do anything?   Did they do any kind of recreational thing together?   Did they ever have a heart-to-heart conversation?

 

 I don't deny that I care about her. But they woulda never had a relationship without Lorelai.  And Rory only seeks him out/sees him in a food context. 

[Bringonthedrama]

11 minutes ago, stan4 said:

Did they hang out with each other outside of Luke's? Did he ever advise her about anything? Did he ever teach her how to do anything?   Did they do any kind of recreational thing together?   Did they ever have a heart-to-heart conversation? 

I don't think they had any extended scenes, but they had moments together here and there. For example, the time Rory was injured in the car accident with Jess. Rory went into the diner alone (Lorelai was angry at Luke re: Jess and they weren't speaking). Rory said she itched because of the cast. Luke told her not to use a pencil to reach in and scratch it; he did that once when he had a cast and the result was bad. Then she told him it wasn't Jess's fault, and Luke said "I know." Another example was at her 21st birthday party at the Gilmores, Luke (when Lorelai was not by his side) gave Rory his mother's necklace.

Luke was a guest at Rory's 16th birthday party, was angry at Dean for breaking up with Rory and intended to go yell at the boy for hurting her (stopped by Lorelai), attended her h.s. graduation basically in place of Christopher, and Luke spent a whole night stitching a protective covering for Rory's goodbye party in Stars Hollow after the Yale graduation, because the forecast was torrential rain.  During the "Wedding Bell Blues" Lorelai, Christopher and Luke argument, Luke spoke of moving Rory's stuff into her dorm room at the beginning of the year, and then moving it out at the end of the year when Christopher was all "Lorelai and I are her parents and you're nothing." After April came into the picture, Lorelai and Rory had a brief conversation with Luke about how it was sweet he gave her a birthday present every year as she was growing up.

[elang4]

39 minutes ago, Bringonthedrama said:

I don't think they had any extended scenes, but they had moments together here and there. For example, the time Rory was injured in the car accident with Jess. Rory went into the diner alone (Lorelai was angry at Luke re: Jess and they weren't speaking). Rory said she itched because of the cast. Luke told her not to use a pencil to reach in and scratch it; he did that once when he had a cast and the result was bad. Then she told him it wasn't Jess's fault, and Luke said "I know." Another example was at her 21st birthday party at the Gilmores, Luke (when Lorelai was not by his side) gave Rory his mother's necklace.

Luke was a guest at Rory's 16th birthday party, was angry at Dean for breaking up with Rory and intended to go yell at the boy for hurting her (stopped by Lorelai), attended her h.s. graduation basically in place of Christopher, and Luke spent a whole night stitching a protective covering for Rory's goodbye party in Stars Hollow after the Yale graduation, because the forecast was torrential rain.  During the "Wedding Bell Blues" Lorelai, Christopher and Luke argument, Luke spoke of moving Rory's stuff into her dorm room at the beginning of the year, and then moving it out at the end of the year when Christopher was all "Lorelai and I are her parents and you're nothing." After April came into the picture, Lorelai and Rory had a brief conversation with Luke about how it was sweet he gave her a birthday present every year as she was growing up.

I agree. They may not have shown it on the show but they certainly implied that Luke and Rory meant a lot to each other. And even when Lorelai broke up with Luke in season 7, Rory still went into the diner after it reopened and then again later when she brought Logan.

[shron17]

15 hours ago, stan4 said:

 You know, I keep hearing people say that, and I used to think that as well. But if you really think about it, what relationship did he have with her that was outside of knowing what was going on in someone's life because of proximity because of all the eating she did at Luke's?

I agree that on the surface it looked like this.  But there's a brief scene in "The Deer-Hunter" that I felt showed the relationship between the 3 of them was more like a surrogate family.  Rory was studying in the diner and threw her pen and Luke brought her pie.  Then Lorelai comes in and says "She's eating pie, did she even have dinner?" to which Luke replies "You raised her, I just serve."  It's clear this is normal--Luke looks out for Rory more than the average customer and Lorelai trusts that he will.  Combined other bits we get--Luke fixing their house and in fact lecturing Lorelai if she pays someone to do something he could do for free and both Lorelai and Rory looking out for Luke when he was struggling (e.g. with Jess, Uncle Louie's funeral, etc.) it seemed to me the family relationship came first.  I think this dynamic came about not because Luke liked Lorelai, but more in response to needs by all of them caused by lack of family.  I don't think Rory looked at Luke as a surrogate father, but as someone who supported both her and her mother in much the way a family member would.  As for the details of their relationship, given Luke's personality I'd say his behavior towards Rory took him out of his comfort zone more than most other characters.

[elang4]

3 minutes ago, shron17 said:

I agree that on the surface it looked like this.  But there's a brief scene in "The Deer-Hunter" that I felt showed the relationship between the 3 of them was more like a surrogate family.  Rory was studying in the diner and threw her pen and Luke brought her pie.  Then Lorelai comes in and says "She's eating pie, did she even have dinner?" to which Luke replies "You raised her, I just serve."  It's clear this is normal--Luke looks out for Rory more than the average customer and Lorelai trusts that he will.  Combined other bits we get--Luke fixing their house and in fact lecturing Lorelai if she pays someone to do something he could do for free and both Lorelai and Rory looking out for Luke when he was struggling (e.g. with Jess, Uncle Louie's funeral, etc.) it seemed to me the family relationship came first.  I think this dynamic came about not because Luke liked Lorelai, but more in response to needs by all of them caused by lack of family.  I don't think Rory looked at Luke as a surrogate father, but as someone who supported both her and her mother in much the way a family member would.  As for the details of their relationship, given Luke's personality I'd say his behavior towards Rory took him out of his comfort zone more than most other characters.

And Rory really having a go at Emily for breaking her mom and Luke up. If she didn’t care for Luke, she wouldn’t have been that angry about it. And at the vow renewal after she was caught with Logan, the first person she asked about to Lorelai was Luke. She didn’t seem to care about her dad but she cared that Luke was so angry.

[shron17]

And way Rory went after Jess after the whole town got mad at Luke

[Taryn74]

4 hours ago, shron17 said:

I don't think Rory looked at Luke as a surrogate father, but as someone who supported both her and her mother in much the way a family member would.

I've always felt like Rory looked to Luke more like a favorite uncle or a (much) older brother with whom she was close, than a father figure.

In turn, he treats her with the same level of affection he does Liz (just with less hugs, and really it would be weird to have him hugging Rory all the time) he just holds her on a higher pedestal because he thinks Rory can do no wrong.

[Frelling Tralk]

1 hour ago, Taryn74 said:

I've always felt like Rory looked to Luke more like a favorite uncle or a (much) older brother with whom she was close, than a father figure.

That’s how I’ve always seen it too, I think that Rory was really fond of Luke definitely and supportive of him as a partner for her mother, but I’ve never gotten the idea that she views him as any kind of father figure. Absent as he might have been, it was only ever Christopher that she seemed to treat in that way imo.  

I do think it was there more on Luke’s side mind you, there are many hints that he viewed Rory as a kind of surrogate daughter (going to her graduation, giving her family jewellery for her 21st birthday, getting overtly hostile when he thinks that a boy has been treating Rory badly), but imo that was all pretty one-sided on his part

[Bringonthedrama]

1 hour ago, Frelling Tralk said:

, but I’ve never gotten the idea that she views him as any kind of father figure. Absent as he might have been, it was only ever Christopher that she seemed to treat in that way imo.  

 

She never referred to Luke as a father figure. Lorelai did that in the letter to the court on Luke's behalf, when he wanted a chance to get to know April. Lorelai described how good Luke was to Rory as she was growing up, and reading that is what made Christopher so furious. The letter made it very clear how much Luke meant to Lorelai and Rory, and it made Christopher feel guilty, jealous and inadequate for all the times Luke was there for them when he failed to be.

It seemed to me like the only time Rory thought of Christopher as her real dad who was looking out for her was after the accident, for the weeks she was in a cast. He started to talk and behave like he wanted to try and be significant other and father to them since it was over with Sherry as far as he was concerned. Then Sherry called to say she was pregnant, he went running back to her, and blamed Lorelai for Rory not wanting to call him back.  Rory still cared about Christopher after that, but she was totally over the idea of him having a real "Dad" role in her life.

Edited March 25, 2018 by Bringonthedrama

[Frelling Tralk]

52 minutes ago, Bringonthedrama said:

She never referred to Luke as a father figure. Lorelai did that in the letter to the court on Luke's behalf, when he wanted a chance to get to know April. Lorelai described how good Luke was to Rory as she was growing up, and reading that is what made Christopher so furious..

It seemed to me like the only time Rory thought of Christopher as her real dad who was looking out for her was after the accident, for the weeks she was in a cast. He started to talk and behave like he wanted to try and be significant other and father to them since it was over with Sherry as far as he was concerned. Then Sherry called to say she was pregnant, he went running back to her, and blamed Lorelai for Rory not wanting to call him back.  Rory still cared about Christopher after that, but she was totally over the idea of him having a real "Dad" role in her life.

 

I’ll try not to elaborate too much as it’s not really on topic for the Luke and Lorelai thread but, while I agree that Rory was frequently disappointed by Christopher, I disagree that she only viewed him as her real dad in season 2.  I think that Rory always recognised Christopher as her ‘real dad’ in the sense that he was her biological father, and she was left feeling disappointed and letdown by him time and time again because of this. Even in the revival she has the scene where she’s asking Christopher if he has any regrets about missing out on her childhood, and she was certainly well past the idea of him playing the dad role in her role by then, but he was still her father in Rory’s eyes for whatever that was worth. She wouldn’t have looked so saddened at his response if she didn’t view him as her real dad  

I agree that Luke, and probably Lorelai as well, did kind of view Luke as a replacement father figure for Rory, I just never got any indication that Rory herself viewed Luke in that way. He was someone who supported their family absolutely, and someone that she was close too, but I never got the feeling that Rory saw him as a father figure, she usually came off as more bewildered than anything else when Luke would say get defensive with Dean on her behalf 

Edited March 25, 2018 by Frelling Tralk

[Bringonthedrama]

2 hours ago, Frelling Tralk said:

 Even in the revival she has the scene where she’s asking Christopher if he has any regrets about missing out on her childhood, and she was certainly well past the idea of him playing the dad role in her role by then, but he was still her father in Rory’s eyes for whatever that was worth. She wouldn’t have looked so saddened at his response if she didn’t view him as her real dad  

 

 

Yes, she said "my father" to him, not being warm toward him and saying"Dad." I thought the sad look at the end was because he wouldn't say to her that he had regrets about missing out on her life.  In my view, anyone person wants to hear that their biological parents wanted them, regret the time missed (if the bio parent has not raised them), and always loved them. Instead he told her things turned out the way they were supposed to, didn't express remorse for any of the messy history, and offered a half-assed "You know I love you, right?"  In her shoes, I'd feel sad and rejected, too - no matter how much my mom and step-father loved me and would always be there.

I'm also reminded of a moment during the series (I think when Christopher had gone back to Sherry) and Lorelai said to Rory "He misses you." Rory responded with "He misses you." I thought that was an astute observation for Rory, that Christopher wanted to be with Lorelai and saw his daughter as just a bonus.

On the other hand, she referred to Luke as "our Luke" when he and Lorelai started dating. Rory's connection to Luke wasn't merely as an extension of his relationship to Lorelai. I felt she considered him family, if not specifically 'stand-in Dad.'

Edited March 26, 2018 by Bringonthedrama

[stan4]

Our Luke...as in the guy we see every morning, many afternoons/evenings who gives us food.  As in the guy who has become a fixture in our lives Luke.  As in the town Luke.

 

Caring about someone (which I think Rory and Luke do)  Does not mean that you have a true independent relationship with them.

 

 It's like my ex's little brother. Or even her parents and grandparents. We became very close in the 7 years that she and I were together. We had our own conversations, we had our own private jokes, and we had a lot of love for each other. I even wrote them letters or bought them thoughtful gifts. But at the end of the day, those relationships were directly linked to my relationship with her.   They would have never existed without her.

[slf]

It's pretty established that Luke is attracted to women who are very different from him - women who like cities and traveling, who are more outgoing and social than he is. So that he would be drawn to Lorelai isn't surprising to me. She's charismatic, charming, funny, intelligent, and very pretty. She has her flaws, sure, but so does Luke. I don't think you can require perfection in a partner. Luke was certainly a healthier eater than Lorelai but I don't think he was a health nut, nor was he shown to only respect people with healthy eating habits so it's not surprising that wasn't a roadblock (and it would've been a bit hypocritical considering he was the source of most of the hamburgers, pie, donuts, and coffee Lorelai ate/drank over the series).

[stan4]

9 hours ago, slf said:

It's pretty established that Luke is attracted to women who are very different from him - women who like cities and traveling, who are more outgoing and social than he is. So that he would be drawn to Lorelai isn't surprising to me. She's charismatic, charming, funny, intelligent, and very pretty. She has her flaws, sure, but so does Luke. I don't think you can require perfection in a partner. Luke was certainly a healthier eater than Lorelai but I don't think he was a health nut, nor was he shown to only respect people with healthy eating habits so it's not surprising that wasn't a roadblock (and it would've been a bit hypocritical considering he was the source of most of the hamburgers, pie, donuts, and coffee Lorelai ate/drank over the series).

Protein shakes, doesn't do coffee, restricts red meat, served his own kid broccoli and turkey burgers, egg white omelets with spinach for breakfast, made a face at the plate Lorelai made him diring NNSN, comments on the lack of veggies all the time, works out, plays sports...yeah, maybe not a health nut all the way, but a million miles from Lorelai (and most Americans).

 

I do agree that it seems hypocritical that he pushes the same foods he won't touch...lol.

 

Good point.  He does seem to like women who are more outgoing and willing to explore the world more...of course, compared to him, that's most everyone.

Maybe there is an exciting or exotic quality that makes it more interesting to him.

[slf]

17 hours ago, stan4 said:

Protein shakes, doesn't do coffee, restricts red meat, served his own kid broccoli and turkey burgers, egg white omelets with spinach for breakfast, made a face at the plate Lorelai made him diring NNSN, comments on the lack of veggies all the time, works out, plays sports...yeah, maybe not a health nut all the way, but a million miles from Lorelai (and most Americans).

 

I do agree that it seems hypocritical that he pushes the same foods he won't touch...lol.

 

Good point.  He does seem to like women who are more outgoing and willing to explore the world more...of course, compared to him, that's most everyone.

Maybe there is an exciting or exotic quality that makes it more interesting to him.

He's definitely into living healthy but not a nut about it. In my opinion, health nuts are those people are almost fanatical about it and are pushy and obnoxious about other people's habits. Luke made a few comments about so much caffeine non being good for Lorelai and Rory (he wasn't wrong) but that's about it. 

[stan4]

3 minutes ago, slf said:

. Luke made a few comments about so much caffeine non being good for Lorelai and Rory (he wasn't wrong) but that's about it. 

Oh, no, friend. He talked about their terrible eating habits all the time re: the food they ate.  

[slf]

Agree to disagree.

[steff13]

19 hours ago, slf said:

He's definitely into living healthy but not a nut about it. In my opinion, health nuts are those people are almost fanatical about it and are pushy and obnoxious about other people's habits. Luke made a few comments about so much caffeine non being good for Lorelai and Rory (he wasn't wrong) but that's about it. 

I think there were a few other little things.  He tried to make Rory eat half a grapefruit.  He made Lorelai eat oatmeal in one episode, even though she said she didn't like it because he said she needed something healthy.  He looked at all the junk in Lorelai's refrigerator and said she should weigh 500 lbs.  I'm sure there are others, that's just what I can think of off the top of my head.

[slf]

3 hours ago, steff13 said:

I think there were a few other little things.  He tried to make Rory eat half a grapefruit.  He made Lorelai eat oatmeal in one episode, even though she said she didn't like it because he said she needed something healthy.  He looked at all the junk in Lorelai's refrigerator and said she should weigh 500 lbs.  I'm sure there are others, that's just what I can think of off the top of my head.

I don't think encouraging someone to eat oatmeal after they've admitted to consuming every bit of coffee in their home (and this is Lorelai so there was likely a ton of coffee in that house) is being unreasonable, nor is trying to give fruit to someone who mostly consumes hamburgers, pizza, other kinds of take-out, candy, and caffeine. Maybe if he wasn't so close to them then I'd think he was being a nut about it but he's known them for years and they eat at his place at least five times a week- their visits there probably double when you add in all the times they go just to get coffee. Luke's probably watched them come in and get junk and coffee 8+ times a week for several years.

I remember a bunch of comments, too, but most of them (except for the ones like in the series premiere) seemed joking to me.

[Kohola3]

11 hours ago, slf said:

I remember a bunch of comments, too, but most of them (except for the ones like in the series premiere) seemed joking to me.

I always saw them as a running joke rather than a mandate.  If he'd been truly trying to make them eat healthy he would have refused to serve them.

[FictionLover]

He made her baked nachos with low fat cheese so she wouldn’t die before she was 60! He was upset that she figured it out.

[steff13]

14 hours ago, slf said:

I don't think encouraging someone to eat oatmeal after they've admitted to consuming every bit of coffee in their home (and this is Lorelai so there was likely a ton of coffee in that house) is being unreasonable, nor is trying to give fruit to someone who mostly consumes hamburgers, pizza, other kinds of take-out, candy, and caffeine. Maybe if he wasn't so close to them then I'd think he was being a nut about it but he's known them for years and they eat at his place at least five times a week- their visits there probably double when you add in all the times they go just to get coffee. Luke's probably watched them come in and get junk and coffee 8+ times a week for several years.

I remember a bunch of comments, too, but most of them (except for the ones like in the series premiere) seemed joking to me.

An adult trying to force another adult to eat something they don't like is unreasonable and obnoxious, regardless of the reason.  

[slf]

13 hours ago, steff13 said:

An adult trying to force another adult to eat something they don't like is unreasonable and obnoxious, regardless of the reason.  

I think part of what we disagree on is the appropriateness of the word "forced". I have no recollection of him ever trying to force food on Lorelai or Rory- he's not the healthy food equivalent of those people who try to sneak meat into a vegetarian dish. He jokes/snarks and occasionally implores but he's never forced or tried to.

Edited March 30, 2018 by slf

[Smad]

On 30.3.2018 at 12:37 AM, slf said:

I think part of what we disagree on is the appropriateness of the word "forced". I have no recollection of him ever trying to force food on Lorelai or Rory- he's not the healthy food equivalent of those people who try to sneak meat into a vegetarian dish. He jokes/snarks and occasionally implores but he's never forced or tried to.

People make it sound as if he bound her to a diner chair, forced her mouth open and then crammed all the healthy food she didn't want down her throat. Jesus.

[clack]

 I only invested in the L/L relationship in the 1st season. After that, I lost track of who was feeling what about who.

Has Luke now given up on Lorelai? Has Lorelai successfully repressed her feelings for Luke, which maybe weren't all that strong in the first place? Why again are they dating/forming serious relationships/marrying a string of other people  if they are in love with each other?

Another thing. Supposedly Luke has been in love with Lorelai for years before S1 begins, and also supposedly they've also been close friends for years, but that doesn't make sense. Wasn't Lorelai single for most of those years? If so, what the hell was up with Luke? What was he thinking? What did he hope for?

How do you hang out with an available woman you're in love with, day after day, year after year, and never say anything? Does he think if just hangs in there, eventually she'll come around? If so, shouldn't he be more crushed when Lorelai takes up with Max?

Why does Luke never try to step back from the friendship, as Marty will later do with Rory? The best cure for unrequited love is absence. Being in a close relationship with someone you're secretly in love with can't be healthy, but we never really see Luke grappling with this on an ongoing basis.

[FictionLover]

6 hours ago, clack said:

 I only invested in the L/L relationship in the 1st season. After that, I lost track of who was feeling what about who.

Has Luke now given up on Lorelai? Has Lorelai successfully repressed her feelings for Luke, which maybe weren't all that strong in the first place? Why again are they dating/forming serious relationships/marrying a string of other people  if they are in love with each other?

Another thing. Supposedly Luke has been in love with Lorelai for years before S1 begins, and also supposedly they've also been close friends for years, but that doesn't make sense. Wasn't Lorelai single for most of those years? If so, what the hell was up with Luke? What was he thinking? What did he hope for?

How do you hang out with an available woman you're in love with, day after day, year after year, and never say anything? Does he think if just hangs in there, eventually she'll come around? If so, shouldn't he be more crushed when Lorelai takes up with Max?

Why does Luke never try to step back from the friendship, as Marty will later do with Rory? The best cure for unrequited love is absence. Being in a close relationship with someone you're secretly in love with can't be healthy, but we never really see Luke grappling with this on an ongoing basis.

I was just wondering today about the writers for these 2; what was their plan? There was so much more interaction with them and more longing from Luke in season 1. After that, they would just throw out a bone to LL shippers each season with some jealousy or a sweet conversation. I wondered if they changed their minds about the coupling but were forced into it because of the fans. Did they always plan for Luke to be Lorelai’s endgame? Was the beginning of season 7 a test with fans for Christopher to be the endgame and they had to retreat? Has anyone ever read or heard interviews about this? I had only read that Lauren Graham hoped it would be Christopher but has changed that tune with talks of the revival. 

As far as Luke’s feelings about Lorelai’s engagement to Max, I did feel he was very sad with the little they showed of his reaction. I felt season  7 did a far worse job of showing how badly they hurt each other.

[clack]

The season 2 retcon of the L/L relationship was a mistake on ASP's part.

In the beginning of season 1, it was implied that Lorelai interacted with Luke mainly as a regular customer in his diner. They had a quasi flirtatious banter thing going, but were at most casual friends (actually more like friendly acquaintances) who maybe had a not-so-secret attraction towards each other. We, as the viewers, got to see their friendship grow as the season went along, with Luke's infatuation becoming full-blown romantic love, and Lorelai pulling back from a potential romance with Luke. 

But with the retcon -- Luke and Lorelai being close friends for years, with Luke being secretly in love with her all that time -- the prior relationship no longer seemed plausible. We know that Luke dates and is capable of approaching women. We know that Lorelai has been single for most if not all the time that she and Luke have been good friends. Why then did Luke never ask her out? Let her know that he has romantic feelings for her? What was the obstacle keeping him from acting? Not saying there could not have been an obstacle ( feelings of inferiority? reluctance to lose his independence? fears of intimacy?) -- but we never get to see this obstacle.

[stan4]

Yup.

 

Luke never just straight up asking Lorelai out never made sense.

Neither did the whole having to listen to a tape to "realize" Lorelai was the one he was into.  Smh.

[FictionLover]

I felt LL standing under the chuppah  in season 2 was foreshadowing. Is that the mistake you are referring to? One thing I did read is that Jess was brought in as an obstacle to the LL relationship.

[marineg]

1 hour ago, FictionLover said:

I felt LL standing under the chuppah  in season 2 was foreshadowing. Is that the mistake you are referring to? One thing I did read is that Jess was brought in as an obstacle to the LL relationship.

How in the world though? Yes, they fought that time Jess and Rory got into an accident, but apart from that, the whole time Jess was in SH, Lorelai was more after Chris than Luke and Luke had his whole thing with Nicole.

[FictionLover]

19 minutes ago, marineg said:

How in the world though? Yes, they fought that time Jess and Rory got into an accident, but apart from that, the whole time Jess was in SH, Lorelai was more after Chris than Luke and Luke had his whole thing with Nicole.

I don’t know, I just read that. But Nicole wasn’t in the picture until season 3. This thread was referring to season 2. Sorry, I forgot to quote clack above.

[Taryn74]

2 hours ago, marineg said:

How in the world though? Yes, they fought that time Jess and Rory got into an accident, but apart from that, the whole time Jess was in SH, Lorelai was more after Chris than Luke and Luke had his whole thing with Nicole.

Because there was someone there not named Lorelai for Luke to focus his attention on for more than five minutes?

(Only halfway joking.)

[shron17]

19 hours ago, marineg said:

How in the world though?

Because Luke was focused on trying to help Jess and Lorelai was focused on trying to keep her daughter away from guys like Jess.  Outside of any romantic attraction, Lorelai depended on Luke to play his role as a kind of co-parent to Rory.  Their fight just brought it all to a head:

Quote

LORELAI: Yes, it is your fault! You told him to come, you let him stay. Everybody hated him, everybody knew he was trouble but you wouldn’t listen and you wouldn’t send him home and now my daughter is in the hospital!
[Luke walks out of the diner and Lorelai follows him]
LORELAI: You kept pushing them together. You asked her to help him study, you knew she’d never say no. I told you it made me nervous, I told you I didn’t like it and I should’ve stopped it right there. But you thought Rory would be good for Jess, never mind what he’d be for her. That wasn’t important at all, was it?
LUKE: Of course it was important.
LORELAI: Why didn’t you put a stop to it at the first sign of trouble? Why didn’t you make him leave?
LUKE: He’s my nephew. I had an obligation to take him in, I had an obligation to care for him.
LORELAI: You had an obligation to this town and to me and to Rory.

 

On 7/17/2018 at 5:18 PM, FictionLover said:

Did they always plan for Luke to be Lorelai’s endgame? Was the beginning of season 7 a test with fans for Christopher to be the endgame and they had to retreat? Has anyone ever read or heard interviews about this?

Yes, since about episode 6 when they saw the chemistry that was the plan for Luke to be endgame at the end of the series.  I think Lorelai would have had a more serious relationship with Christopher at an earlier point but David Suttcliff had other things going on and wasn't willing to commit to the time they needed until season 7.  His contract was for 14-16 episodes and he was never intended to end up with Lorelai, which was obvious from the way the got back together.

[clack]

I get that bringing Luke and Lorelai together too soon would dissipate all that romantic tension -- but so too is going into a multi-season stall, where we as viewers lose track of what each is feeling for the other.

As in, is Luke still carrying the torch for Lorelai at this point in the show (season 3, say), or has he given up? Does Lorelai realize that Luke loves her, and why is Luke hiding his love in the first place? Is Lorelai actively rejecting Luke as a potential boyfriend, or has she never seriously considered the possibility? Etc. All these interesting  dramatic questions are continually fudged and left vague, until the viewer ceases caring.

[FictionLover]

4 hours ago, shron17 said:

Because Luke was focused on trying to help Jess and Lorelai was focused on trying to keep her daughter away from guys like Jess.  Outside of any romantic attraction, Lorelai depended on Luke to play his role as a kind of co-parent to Rory.  Their fight just brought it all to a head:

 

Yes, since about episode 6 when they saw the chemistry that was the plan for Luke to be endgame at the end of the series.  I think Lorelai would have had a more serious relationship with Christopher at an earlier point but David Suttcliff had other things going on and wasn't willing to commit to the time they needed until season 7.  His contract was for 14-16 episodes and he was never intended to end up with Lorelai, which was obvious from the way the got back together.

I had heard somewhere that the network forced ASP for the pairing and that’s probably why she didn’t do a great job writing them. Like “fine, be careful what you ask for people.” Not my words, just what I heard. That’s why I’ve been asking. I’m a Netflix viewer, so I thought maybe fans that watched from the beginning may have heard or read more in the media while it was in production.

[shron17]

57 minutes ago, FictionLover said:

I had heard somewhere that the network forced ASP for the pairing and that’s probably why she didn’t do a great job writing them.

As far as I know the network asked that Rory lose her virginity and Luke and Lorelai get together before the end of season 4.  Of course, no one knew how many more seasons the show would go but Amy did have to change what she was planning for their relationship.  But they didn't "force" the pairing as it was well telegraphed.

1 hour ago, clack said:

All these interesting  dramatic questions are continually fudged and left vague, until the viewer ceases caring.

Yes, things were left very vague and I've always been confused about what was supposed to be happening between them in season 3, although there are a few clues.  Fans were very tired of waiting but they all didn't all lose interest.  Watching something week to week is a very different experience than watching on Netflix.  I didn't start watching until syndicated reruns started and didn't catch up to new episodes until mid season 5, so it didn't seem as long.  

[bracebridge]

I came across this old interview with ASP back when the show was airing mid-season four, and this is what I found:

“Sherman Palladino hinted that Lorelai and Luke (Scott Patterson) might get together someday, but she doesn't want to rush it.

"’I think it's what we're all working toward, whether we do it before the end [of the series] or at the end," she said. "It's one of the key touchstones of our show. You've got this woman working so hard to make it and her partner is right around the corner. If either one of them would just let the wall down for five seconds and keep the quips to a minimum and maybe say something real to each other, their lives would be very different.’"

http://web.archive.org/web/20050319140230/http://www.post-gazette.com:80/tv/20040116owen0116fnp4.asp

So it seems like the ratings' drop and the negative fan reaction to Lorelai and Rory's separation prompted her to get Luke and Lorelai together in season 4 and that she was seriously considering the possibility of resolving the will they/won't they at the end of the series - which is why she didn't know what to do with them after they got together and felt compelled to throw all sorts of obstacles in their way - and thus, the result is an unrealistic lack of physical of affection, a plot-induced inability to communicate with each other and Plot Devices™ that are straight out of a soap opera (Emily & Christopher in S5 and April & Anna in S6).

[FictionLover]

2 hours ago, shron17 said:

As far as I know the network asked that Rory lose her virginity and Luke and Lorelai get together before the end of season 4.  Of course, no one knew how many more seasons the show would go but Amy did have to change what she was planning for their relationship.  But they didn't "force" the pairing as it was well telegraphed.

Yes, things were left very vague and I've always been confused about what was supposed to be happening between them in season 3, although there are a few clues.  Fans were very tired of waiting but they all didn't all lose interest.  Watching something week to week is a very different experience than watching on Netflix.  I didn't start watching until syndicated reruns started and didn't catch up to new episodes until mid season 5, so it didn't seem as long.  

I feel as much as I enjoyed it on Netflix, that I may have lost interest in it during it’s original run.

 I did hear that about Rory. But with all the David Sutcliff love with both ASP and LG, I wondered.

Maybe ASP just planned on them getting together at the end of the series.  

[bracebridge]

Quote

I’m happy that [Lorelai] and Luke went off into the sunset. I think that that’s … you know … he was … her friend and companion, and I think that that is the most– we lucked out there. It was not planned, and it sort of happened, the chemistry to them; we really enjoyed the buddy comedy aspect of them, and then it was like in life, who do you end up with? You end up with your best friend.

I think the quote above by ASP encapsulates the reason I love LL so much.

I love their friendship in the first four seasons. It’s beautiful and one of the best things about the show — the longing looks, the charged banter, the sweet moments in between that showcased the depth of their connection. I think that from the beginning, both of them were in love with each other but alas, deeply in denial about it. I think both of them were so unwilling to acknowledge their romantic feelings because they were afraid of jeopardizing their friendship.

I love that in spite of how different they were in the surface, they really seemed to ‘get’ each other far better than anyone else (Luke can instantly pick up when something is bothering Lorelai, for example), confided expansively on each other, and truly possessed the ability to get through each other’s thick skulls and make the other person listen when they were at their most stubborn. And I think it’s adorable that they both get a kick out of their bickering!

It’s the little things – the affectionate glances they throw at each other when the other one’s not looking, the ease and comfort they demonstrate around each other, the fact that it’s only around each other that they feel secure enough to let down their guards and allow themselves to vulnerable. They really know and appreciate the other person for what they are, without any false beliefs or any childish presumptions but rather a fundamental understanding and respect towards one another. I read somewhere that the reason they work so well is because Luke’s a grumpy misanthropist and Lorelai’s a cheery misanthropist and together they can bond over their shared bemusement over the craziness of Stars Hollow and the rest of the world.

What really sells their relationship for me, though, is how much they cherish each other. They have their ups and downs, sure, but you can tell that Lorelai thinks the world of Luke and highly values their friendship, and that Luke considers Lorelai as family and would genuinely do anything for her.

TL;DR Luke and Lorelai are best friends who love and support each other unconditionally and who would’ve had an amazing romantic relationship in the hands of a more capable writer.

[lulu1960]

Love the above post. I always likened Luke and Lorelai to another of my all-time favorite couples, Michaela and Sully from Dr Quinn, Medicine Woman. The characters very similar to L/L. Sully a bit of a loner, loses family early in life, salt of the earth kind of guy, becomes one of Michaela's best friends who will and does anything for her. Michaela a strong independent single woman who ends up raising kids are her own. On the outside looking in, two very different people. The only different was that the writers of Dr. Quinn let the friendship turn to romance to love to marriage and yes to even having a child together. They never saw any of this as a hinderance. The adventures were still there, the passion was still there. 

[clack]

But Luke knows he's in love with Lorelai. He's not in denial -- he believes she's not in love with him, so he settles for friendship with Lorelai, and tries to find romantic love elsewhere.

As for Lorelai : can she be in love with Luke for 10 years ( or however long it's supposed to be) and not know it? I don't believe it. She's not in denial -- she's just not in love.

[FictionLover]

1 hour ago, clack said:

But Luke knows he's in love with Lorelai. He's not in denial -- he believes she's not in love with him, so he settles for friendship with Lorelai, and tries to find romantic love elsewhere.

As for Lorelai : can she be in love with Luke for 10 years ( or however long it's supposed to be) and not know it? I don't believe it. She's not in denial -- she's just not in love.

Maybe not in love but definitely an attraction. Otherwise, she wouldn’t have been jealous over other women. However, in the revival she said it was always suppose to be Luke.

[elang4]

30 minutes ago, FictionLover said:

Maybe not in love but definitely an attraction. Otherwise, she wouldn’t have been jealous over other women. However, in the revival she said it was always suppose to be Luke.

I feel like deep down Lorelai knows she has feelings for Luke but I feel like she doesn’t want to ruin their friendship by acting on it. Plus when she asked Rory what she thought of Luke in season 1, Rory was so against them dating that she probably just put it to the back of her mind. And then from then on, the timing was bad for both of them.