Social Media and Behind the Scenes: AKA Everything Else Not "News and Media"

[AyChihuahua]

The problem is that Guggie's in charge, and he seems to disagree.  I hate him for that, of course, but he's the boss, and he's contradicted that idea in both word and script.

[wonderwall]

I find it funny that David Ramsey and most probably Stephen Amell both believe O/F/D to be the core of the show and what makes it better but the showrunner doesn't. How pathetic, thqh because it seems like he's writing to make his fanboy fantasies come true (masks masks masks!)

[wingster55]

Diggle hasn't been involved in the core of the show since the s1 finale (where his relationship with Oliver was more important and Felicity's...wasn't)

 

Willa canceled her Supanova appearance due to filming. She'll also attend  something called Boardwalk Con http://t.co/ie67tSXi9A

[wonderwall]

Diggle hasn't been involved in the core of the show since the s1 finale (where his relationship with Oliver was more important and Felicity's...wasn't)

 

From where I'm standing Diggle's relationship with Oliver is still extremely important. Diggle constantly has Oliver's back, he went to Nanda Parbat with him, he asked Oliver to be his best man, he was the first person Oliver talked to about almost dying, he is the one pushing Oliver to grow the hell up and start living life, he's the one who Oliver trusts without a single doubt, the one Oliver goes to when his life is shit (he went to Diggle and Lyla's place for dinner in episode 7). So I disagree on your stance that Diggle isn't as important to Oliver as Felicity is this season. I'd say he's become more important to Oliver. Just because we don't see them interact as much (because let's be real, we haven't seen ANY of the core three interact with each other that much this season) doesn't mean that Diggle won't ever be not important to Oliver. 

 

Oliver is in LOVE with Felicity. He isn't in LOVE with Diggle. I just don't get why some people get bitter over the fact that Felicity is one of the most important person in his life. Probably more important than Diggle, but just as important as Thea. It's just like how Lyla will always be more important to Diggle than Oliver. We're simply closer to the people who we're in love with (unless you're Turk and JD from scrubs. But that was an exception to the rule). 

Edited April 12, 2015 by wonderwall

[olicityfan25]

I'll be at the Calgary Expo for Stephen and David!

[statsgirl]

The problem is that Guggie's in charge, and he seems to disagree.  I hate him for that, of course, but he's the boss, and he's contradicted that idea in both word and script.

I think he has some sense of it, and he counts on it, but he prefers playing with his shiny new toys of Ray Palmer and Malcolm/Thea and of course, Laurel becoming BC.

 

It's like something you think will always be there so you can move away from it and go back knowing it will still be there, as MG does at the end of each season.  The problem is, it's like an elastic, the more you stretch it, the weaker it gets.

 

 

Diggle hasn't been involved in the core of the show since the s1 finale (where his relationship with Oliver was more important and Felicity's...wasn't)

Ep 3x15, Nanda Parbat, where Diggle is the one Oliver talks to, the first person he's been able to talk about about the Malcolm mess since it started.  (Also noteworthy that this was the episode where Felicity got kicked out of their convo twice.  And the other examples wonderwall gave.

 

Diggle is Oliver's rock, the closest thing he has to a brother and mentor, and every time that connection frays, Oliver gets a little bit crazier.

[wonderwall]

This makes me feel better :p

 

[Starfish35]

Hahahahaha! Poor Stephen.

[catrox14]

LOL. Stephen. That was fantastic. He's is sooo full of shade

[AyChihuahua]

Love how he comments while saying he'll never comment.

 

One day I hope we hear his true thoughts on this season, and the rest of the show if there's not an enormous and consistent increase in quality (which I am not expecting, unfortunately, as the EPs are remaining the same).  He seems like an intelligent guy, and the show has been so unbelievably stupid, sloppy, and illogical this season.

[catrox14]

There should be a tell all called "MG: Initials of Destruction"  .and it could be Guggenheim or Goffman from Sleepy Hollow because as bad as we've had, the SleepyHeads had it a million times worse.

[AyChihuahua]

Yeah, I loved Sleepy Hollow S1, and S2 was legit terrible.  I rewatched the final episode and even knowing Katrina was about to croak, she was still awful.  BUT, at least Goffman got booted for his insane creative choices, so I'm giving it another chance next season.  

 

So weird that I'd end up hoping network executives would step in.  Hollywood Babylon is one of my favorite Supernatural episodes, but at this point I kind of feel like the suits might have a point!

[wingster55]

Oliver is in LOVE with Felicity. He isn't in LOVE with Diggle.

 

In season 1 when Oliver was in love with Laurel, the relationship with Diggle was still the most important in the show. 

Now I'm not begrudging Felicity's role...but her being the love interest was bound to diminish Diggle's role (as well as Laurel's) since she can play the Team Arrow confidant, and love interest. 

You mention when Felicity was left out of a conversation between Oliver and Diggle. I recall times when Diggle was literally just observing in the background when Oliver and Felicity talked. When Oliver was fighting Ra's that first time and saying his goodbyes...his farewell to Diggle was seriously lame. He may not have known it was the "last time" but the audience did...should have had more. 

[catrox14]

Oh Gods.  Season 2 of SH was just heartbreaking in how awful it was.  But yes I agree with you about Hollywood Babylon, such a great episode. And to know that most of the stupid things from the suits were actual notes given to Kripke makes me laugh so hard.  I would love to see the notes between Fox and Goffman.

[AyChihuahua]

Total aside, but Monster Movie is one of my favorite episodes of tv ever.  Happy, handsome, charming, smart Dean; pretty girl in distress who actually has a brain; interesting/heartbreaking monster; good Dean/Sam interaction; funny background players.  The shifter's whole castle setup attached to a totally ordinary suburban box cracks my stuff up EVERY time (plus the pizza delivery, my lord the LOLs).

[catrox14]

Oh gods. Yes! JFC, Jared and Jensen in BW is disgustingly beautiful.  I loved Jamie! I shipped her so hard with Dean.  Best pickup line in the history of ever ....Dean:"Oh...I remember a pretty........everything".   Sheesh, pretty sure my panties fell off right then LOL

 

You should join us in the Supernatural thread. We have a survival game and we have discussions of all 10 seasons...It's a great crowd.

[wonderwall]

In season 1 when Oliver was in love with Laurel, the relationship with Diggle was still the most important in the show. 

Now I'm not begrudging Felicity's role...but her being the love interest was bound to diminish Diggle's role (as well as Laurel's) since she can play the Team Arrow confidant, and love interest. 

You mention when Felicity was left out of a conversation between Oliver and Diggle. I recall times when Diggle was literally just observing in the background when Oliver and Felicity talked. When Oliver was fighting Ra's that first time and saying his goodbyes...his farewell to Diggle was seriously lame. He may not have known it was the "last time" but the audience did...should have had more. 

 

Yet when Laurel beckoned, Oliver dropped Diggle and his mission regarding Lawton which in turn made Diggle quit the team because he felt like he couldn't trust Oliver. Sorry, I don't believe you when you say Diggle was the most important to Oliver because until Blind Spot, Oliver had always put Laurel first putting Diggle in the corner. Oliver has gotten better regarding managing his friends and the person he's in love with. If you think that Diggle was Oliver's most important relationship on the show when he was in love with Laurel is a testament to how much of a failure Oliver's relationship with Laurel was. That's just my opinion. 

 

What role did Laurel play before this season? Her role hasn't diminshed at all, in fact she's overshadowed Digg's role as a character (who is more than his relationship with Oliver). I find it a ridiculous statement to say that Felicity diminished Laurel's role (of which she literally has none because she brings nothing new to the table). Laurel failed as a love interest and that has nothing to do with Felicity, she isn't even a good confidante because her and Oliver aren't even good friends adn that has nothing to do with Felicity. 

 

So you admit that both Felicity and Diggle have been left out of conversations, doesn't that sort of even them out? I feel like you just want Oliver to open up to only Diggle and not Felicity. If that's the case, how is he supposed to have a realistic relationship with Felicity? How's the audience supposed to believe that Oliver Queen is in love with Felicity if they don't have important moments together? 

 

I agree that Oliver's goodbye to Diggle was lame. But that has nothing to do with Felicity. Why not cut out those scenes where Oliver's climbing that damn mountain? Could've easily given those moments to Diggle. It's easy to blame Felicity/Olicity for stealing away time from other characters when in actuality there are other things that are worth cutting out (like some of the Lance family bits that added nothing to the episode). 

 

You say that you're not trying to diminish Felicity's role, but with all due respect, I feel like you're really quick to blame her for a lot of problems that have nothing to do with her. 

Edited April 12, 2015 by wonderwall

[wingster55]

Yet when Laurel beckoned, Oliver dropped Diggle and his mission regarding Lawton which in turn made Diggle quit the team because he felt like he couldn't trust Oliver. Sorry, I don't believe you when you say Diggle was the most important to Oliver because until Blind Spot, Oliver had always put Laurel first putting Diggle in the corner. Oliver has gotten better regarding managing his friends and the person he's in love with. If you think that Diggle was Oliver's most important relationship on the show when he was in love with Laurel is a testament to how much of a failure Oliver's relationship with Laurel was. That's just my opinion.

 

When he did that it was treated as an awful thing and ended with Oliver asking for forgiveness. Basically saying choosing Laurel over Diggle was wrong. 

 

What role did Laurel play before this season? Her role hasn't diminshed at all, in fact she's overshadowed Digg's role as a character (who is more than his relationship with Oliver). I find it a ridiculous statement to say that Felicity diminished Laurel's role (of which she literally has none because she brings nothing new to the table). Laurel failed as a love interest and that has nothing to do with Felicity, she isn't even a good confidante because her and Oliver aren't even good friends adn that has nothing to do with Felicity.

 

In some ways in s1 she was there to call Oliver out on his bs (which other did as well granted) and be in some ways a moral compass. Now it's just Felicity with Diggle sprinkled in far too seldom. 

 

The Lance seasons weren't useless...they were necessary for their characters. Not everything is about Oliver or about the plot. 

Similar to Felicity and her mom. What did that add to the plot? Nothing. But learning more about a character is NEVER a bad thing. 

[wonderwall]

When he did that it was treated as an awful thing and ended with Oliver asking for forgiveness. Basically saying choosing Laurel over Diggle was wrong.

 

That still doesn't deny the fact that up till that point, Laurel was more important to Oliver than Diggle was. Oliver has never mistreated Diggle whilst being in love with Felicity. Because his love for her doesn't cloud his judgement. And isn't that the kind of relationship that is good for Oliver and his relationship with Diggle?

 

In some ways in s1 she was there to call Oliver out on his bs (which other did as well granted) and be in some ways a moral compass. Now it's just Felicity with Diggle sprinkled in far too seldom.

Laurel still calls Oliver out on his shit (in fact KC prides in Laurel doing so) in almost every episode. Nothing has changed in that regard so I don't understand the point you're making? The point is that Oliver rarely (if ever) listens to Laurel when she does so and that has nothing to do with Felicity or Diggle. It has more to do with the crappy relationship they've cultivated ever since the pilot. He listens to Diggle and Felicity, though. And Laurel has never been a moral compass to Oliver. She'd been his shame because of what he did to her and her family so saying that she was or could've been his moral compass is pretty fallacious.  

 

The Lance seasons weren't useless...they were necessary for their characters. Not everything is about Oliver or about the plot.

Similar to Felicity and her mom. What did that add to the plot? Nothing. But learning more about a character is NEVER a bad thing.

 

Okay, I actually agree. But I must ask that if learning more about a character is never a bad thing, how is showing scenes that are about developing a relationship a bad thing? Clearly Oliver and Felicity are building something that will (hopefully) stand the test of time. But that doesn't diminish Diggle's role. Those moments are JUST as important as Diggle's scenes with Oliver so asking to reduce O/F screentime (of which there hasn't been much of, let's be real a maximum of five minutes per episode) is just as bad as the writers not writing as many Diggle/Oliver or Diggle/Felicity scenes. There are ALWAYS unnecessary scenes in episodes that are worth cutting, I just don't get why you think that those moments should be Felicity and Oliver moments because most of them have been really important this year. 

 

IMO the show should've dropped Ray and his arc and given that screentime to Diggle/Felicity to better their characters because so far Felicity's arc hasn't been about her it's been about Palmer and Diggle has been sidelined by the new masks. 

Edited April 12, 2015 by wonderwall

[tv echo]

Some non-spoilery responses at http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/

your-soul-tastes-like-frosting asked:
Quick question...where does Oliver live? We never see his home anymore this season, and I realized I had no idea where he even slept. Does he still live in the mansion, or was that taken when he lost all his money?

He’s been living in the lair.

silvermoondancing asked:
This does not mean I like Ray. A thank you just means I appreciate YOU and the Arrow team and all of your hard work.

Thank you! I’ll take it!

prettylittleliarrow asked:
if felicity is jewish why didnt mama smoak say "you lit up like a menorah when he walked into the room"

Doesn’t have the same ring.

Edited April 12, 2015 by tv echo

[willpwr]

 

That still doesn't deny the fact that up till that point, Laurel was more important to Oliver than Diggle was. Oliver has never mistreated Diggle whilst being in love with Felicity. Because his love for her doesn't cloud his judgement. And isn't that the kind of relationship that is good for Oliver and his relationship with Diggle?

 

Laurel still calls Oliver out on his shit (in fact KC prides in Laurel doing so) in almost every episode. Nothing has changed in that regard so I don't understand the point you're making? The point is that Oliver rarely (if ever) listens to Laurel when she does so and that has nothing to do with Felicity or Diggle. It has more to do with the crappy relationship they've cultivated ever since the pilot. He listens to Diggle and Felicity, though. And Laurel has never been a moral compass to Oliver. She'd been his shame because of what he did to her and her family so saying that she was or could've been his moral compass is pretty fallacious.  

Replying in the relationship thread,

[tv echo]

Additional non-spoilery info from DR's appearance at this weekend's Megacon in Orlando, FL...

Ramsey was asked what his favorite scene or moment of his career has been so far and he answered: “Anything with Stephen really, but one moment when we were filming” in the Queen Mansion, “my character Diggle was suppose to whisper to Oliver ‘Sir, your car is here.’ But instead I said (insert crude joke) and Stephen had a difficult time maintaining composure for the rest of the scene.”

MegaCon: ‘Arrow’ Star David Ramsey Talks Stephen Amell Scenes, Felicity Father Revealed
Published On: Sat, Apr 11th, 2015   By Taylor Jones
http://www.theglobaldispatch.com/megacon-arrow-star-david-ramsey-talks-stephen-amell-scenes-felicity-father-revealed-27676/

 

Just About Write @JustAboutWrite_  ·  15h 15 hours ago
"I wouldn't have any child under... 38 watch that." - @david_ramsey on acting on #Arrow vs. #Dexter #MegaCon #FlashvsArrow

Just About Write @JustAboutWrite_  ·  16h 16 hours ago
"Until @Team_Barrowman came, I was the GRANDDADDY on set." - @david_ramsey #FlashvsArrow #MegaCon

Just About Write @JustAboutWrite_  ·  16h 16 hours ago
"The superpower I would want Diggle to have is the ability for him to change Oliver's mind about ANYTHING." - @david_ramsey #MegaCon #arrow

https://twitter.com/JustAboutWrite_

 

Edited April 12, 2015 by tv echo

[Sakura12]

Has anyone ever asked EBR why she doesn't attend Cons? I read somewhere that it's a nerves thing but I don't think it was confirmed and she did fine on the European tour.

 I"d be honored to be one of the few people that got to meet EBR at a Con. ;D #sorrynotsorry

 

She seemed fine, I don't know how her day went before that. But we just talked about Game of Thrones and Orphan Black. I tend to not talk about their show too much when I meet Celebs. Even with Caity I just asked if she knew if the show was filming a pilot or going straight to series. I did tell her I stopped watching the show when they killed Sara though. But then we mostly talked about the weather in Chicago and Vancouver and she was telling me how she finally got a good night sleep when she arrived in Chicago the day before. I feel they probably get thousands of questions about the show and their character and would want to talk about something else.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Sakura12

[looptab]

That answer DR gave about the favorite moment in his career, made me wonder for a second if he's been going to the School of Random Answers, too, ahah.

[tv echo]

Nothing spoilery in these short video clips...

 

Megacon Orlando 4/11/15 - The Flash vs. Arrow panel - crazy fan experience
Published on Apr 12, 2015, by Ocean Serenity

 

David Ramsey at Megacon Orlando - 4/11/15 - The Flash vs. Arrow panel
Published on Apr 12, 2015, by Ocean Serenity

[tv echo]

CL announced as special guest at Eek! Fest in Alberta, Canada, on May 30th...

 

St. Albert’s Eek! Fest announces celebrity guests
April 10, 2015 by editor
http://www.stalbertleader.com/2015/04/10/st-alberts-eek-fest-announces-celebrity-guests/

To fuel that growth, the organizer of Eek! Fest 2015 just announced that Caity Lotz and Adrian Pasdar will be this year’s special guests as part of the overall show, which will encompass four halls (two fields and two arenas) at Servus Place in St. Albert on May 30 and 31.

Arrow fans will know Lotz as Sara Lance, the first Black Canary, and one of the stars of the upcoming DC spin-off show, rumoured to be called The Brave and the Bold, on the CW network.

Edited April 12, 2015 by tv echo

[Morrigan2575]

Hmm, that's a new rumor.

[tv echo]

MB at Christchurch Armageddon ("New Zealand's largest entertainment expo"), March 7-8, 2015 -- he talked about being on Spartacus, auditioning for Arrow (he choked someone into unconsciousness), the new Deathstroke in the Suicide Squad movie, becoming Azog in The Hobbit, who he got on well with on Arrow (mentions CL and SA), working out and staying fit, his favorite character and favorite scene, being Marc Antony on Xena, returning to New Zealand to shoot Shannara, his reaction when he was told that Slade loved Shado on Arrow, why people liked Slade (esp. soldiers), his not liking the way Slade got his ass kicked the end of the second season and the middle of this season on Arrow (he would've preferred that it took the entire team to take him down because it's Deathstroke), Olicity ("they probably deserve each other", "I don't think it'll happen, personally, because it keeps the tension", "it'll be like Clark Kent and Lois Lane"), and other stuff ...

 

Edited April 12, 2015 by tv echo

[FurryFury]

He will be in Shannara? Guess I'll have to check it out, even if the one book I've read sucked ass (ever worse than Goodkind's Sword of Truth, although very different).

[pootlus]

Ha yes, I read some Shannara back in the 80s when fantasy was pretty thin on the ground and I read just about everything. Disliked it intensely but I'll watch Manu in just about anything.

[BkWurm1]

Regarding the core three being the heart of the show:

The problem is that Guggie's in charge, and he seems to disagree.  I hate him for that, of course, but he's the boss, and he's contradicted that idea in both word and script.

I actually have come to believe that he absolutely knows how much the audience responds to having Oliver, Diggle and Felicity together and I think he is using it when it suits his purposes, meaning he deliberately withholds it and just when rebellion is stirring, gives it to us.   Think last season, think spoilers for what's coming still coming.  I think he thinks that by keeping us wanting it, it instantly elevates any chosen episode he allows it to thrive and poof, gives him a sure fire positive press and fan reaction.  

[statsgirl]

It's the show's equivalent of keeping the OTP apart -- they know what we want but they think it serves best not to give it to us, only when we're desperate.

 

Speaking of which, Manu Bennett said that that Oliver and Felicity won't get together because that tension "is what the audience wants."  What is it going to take to end the Moonlighting Myth?

 

When asked who he worked best with, MB replied "Caity Lotz, the young Black Canary" and a picture of Laurel's Canary flashed on screen. Not good.

 

 

your-soul-tastes-like-frosting asked:
    Quick question...where does Oliver live? We never see his home anymore this season, and I realized I had no idea where he even slept. Does he still live in the mansion, or was that taken when he lost all his money?

   MG:   He’s been living in the lair.

 

I thought he moved in with Thea in The Magician. One of us is watching what's on screen, MG.

[wonderwall]

Speaking of which, Manu Bennett said that that Oliver and Felicity won't get together because that tension "is what the audience wants."  What is it going to take to end the Moonlighting Myth?

 

When asked who he worked best with, MB replied "Caity Lotz, the young Black Canary" and a picture of Laurel's Canary flashed on screen. Not good.

 

When did he say this? Regardless, while I agree with MB about CL being BC and taking Slade in the wrong direction, I disagree with him about this. Keeping O/F apart is what's making the dynamic suffer. Tension that amounts to nothing is just the worst.  

[statsgirl]

It's near the end of his clip, when they show the questions the audience was asking. Someone asked who he got on best with on Arrow and he said Caity Lotz.  He added something about Stephen, that he's good value but has to carry the show.  When I have a chance I'll go back and get the exact wording.

[Morena]

splintered_skies ‏@Lisa_Martin98 38 min

@ChristieLaing from your arrow days as carly diggle.... do you ship oliver/felicity? and describe @EmilyBett in 1 word :)

 

Christie Laing ‏@ChristieLaing 18 min

@Lisa_Martin98 of course I shopped #olicity miss Bett is the best. One of the most wonderful people I've worked with.

 

Edited April 13, 2015 by Morena

[FurryFury]

IMO, Olicity's will they or won't they really does help to sustain the audience's interest. Were it a better show, they could just pair them up and simply focus on something else - a romance between other characters, non-romantic stuff, anything, but it's pretty clear the show's out of ideas (I mean seriously, they're using all the cliches in the book), so dangling a bait before the shippers' noses is one of the very few ways they've got left to make people keep watching their show. Even if they do get together at some point, it won't last more than half a season (and I wouldn't be shocked if Oliver's son was the reason for the break-up).

Edited April 13, 2015 by FurryFury

[kismet]

TBH, I don't think the writers write the will they/won't they tension well. So I don't think they should rely on it as heavily moving forward. I don't think the show can sustain another full season of their attempt at will they/won't they, not unless they find a better way to write it. They can use it as bait to get people to watch the show, but at some point if its not quality bait people just won't bite. They are running out of quality bait story wise on keeping them apart. I also think the show should not revolve around them getting together or not getting together, because it makes for a weaker show. It's not a rom-com or romantic drama. The relationship drama should not be the only thing driving the show or the interest in the show. Give the audience something else to enjoy or crave from an action/villain/comic standpoint and deliver on it, and let the romance only be part of the equation. S3 has failed in many ways because it relied to heavily on the romantic angst to drive the show and never delivered an enticing villain or alternative story arcs. It was rambling disjointed plot after plot, with no emphasis on character or the story.

[looptab]

Honestly, I don't understand how it could be argued that they're relying on the romantic drama to drive the show. Some parts of publicity, sure, but I don't get the impression that they're writing with the romantic angles at the fore of their minds.

[kismet]

Honestly, I don't understand how it could be argued that they're relying on the romantic drama to drive the show. Some parts of publicity, sure, but I don't get the impression that they're writing with the romantic angles at the fore of their minds.

I think they are heavily relying on romantic cliches & tropes to help tell their story this season. Here is some of the evidence that I can think of off the top of my head.

 

1. They chose to introduce an entire new character with spin-off potential as a romantic interest & place him in a love triangle with the major character. Ray Palmer could have been introduced in a million other ways, but they chose the romantic LI route. FS's hyped individual story arc revolved not around her professional advancement at PT, but rather her personal & romantic relationship with Ray. Never once were we shown that her job title as VP made her any more important to the company than her role as EA to OQ.

 

2. They chose to have the major theme of the show this season be Identity which amounted to OQ spending weeks figuring out or trying to prove why he couldn't be OQ & the Arrow. Which when boiled down amounted to why he couldn't be with FS & save the city, as was mentioned in Suicidal Tendencies. Every single time a the story arc changed, their was some romantic angsty or emotional/flirty conversation between O & F.

 

3. The whole entire working with MM plot line, which could have been sold as a tactical decision by TA to use his knowledge of LoA in their favor instead turned out to be just a means to keep O/F on opposite sides of the argument, cue the woman you love alleyway.

 

4. Promotion and what has been talked about by & in the media/cons/forums have all been heavily revolving around romantic entanglements (olicity, raylicity, theroy, dyla). If a lot of what people are talking about is the romantic angles, then it generally indicates that they are playing a large role this season.

 

5. The big Villains of s2 & s3 both made shots at OQ about how he could never be with FS. OQ literally saw RP/FS romantically cozy for a minute in the office and was seriously considering that as one of his reasons to give up the Arrow & join LoA.

 

6. Ray's big suit breakthrough came after he had sex with FS.

Who knows what OQ breakthrough will be after he has sex with Felicity?

DJ assassin used sex as means to get closer to Thea to assassinate her.

 

So yes I do think there is some evidence that the romantic angles have been used heavily this season on Arrow, more so than some of the other angles they could have used.

[looptab]

I think they are heavily relying on romantic cliches & tropes to help tell their story this season. Here is some of the evidence that I can think of off the top of my head.

 

1. They chose to introduce an entire new character with spin-off potential as a romantic interest & place him in a love triangle with the major character. Ray Palmer could have been introduced in a million other ways, but they chose the romantic LI route. FS's hyped individual story arc revolved not around her professional advancement at PT, but rather her personal & romantic relationship with Ray. Never once were we shown that her job title as VP made her any more important to the company than her role as EA to OQ.

 

2. They chose to have the major theme of the show this season be Identity which amounted to OQ spending weeks figuring out or trying to prove why he couldn't be OQ & the Arrow. Which when boiled down amounted to why he couldn't be with FS & save the city, as was mentioned in Suicidal Tendencies. Every single time a the story arc changed, their was some romantic angsty or emotional/flirty conversation between O & F.

 

3. The whole entire working with MM plot line, which could have been sold as a tactical decision by TA to use his knowledge of LoA in their favor instead turned out to be just a means to keep O/F on opposite sides of the argument, cue the woman you love alleyway.

 

4. Promotion and what has been talked about by & in the media/cons/forums have all been heavily revolving around romantic entanglements (olicity, raylicity, theroy, dyla). If a lot of what people are talking about is the romantic angles, then it generally indicates that they are playing a large role this season.

 

5. The big Villains of s2 & s3 both made shots at OQ about how he could never be with FS. OQ literally saw RP/FS romantically cozy for a minute in the office and was seriously considering that as one of his reasons to give up the Arrow & join LoA.

 

6. Ray's big suit breakthrough came after he had sex with FS.

Who knows what OQ breakthrough will be after he has sex with Felicity?

DJ assassin used sex as means to get closer to Thea to assassinate her.

 

So yes I do think there is some evidence that the romantic angles have been used heavily this season on Arrow, more so than some of the other angles they could have used.

Well, I think there is a difference between saying that they rely on romantic cliches and that the show revolves around the main couple getting together or not. I thought you were implying the latter, in your previous post. Still, I have a different interpretation for the points you made:

 

1- The identity theme: I'm now firmly convinced that they pulled this theme just because they wanted Oliver to be Ra's al Ghul;

 

2- I think MM's involvement provided them the excuse to bring Thea in the thick of the story;

 

3- The talk about the show around the Internet -by fans- does not revolve exclusively around relationship. Sure, a portion of the fandom focuses mostly on that, and the media outlets do too, but mostly to generate buzz;

 

4- Oliver wasn't just concerned about Felicity being with Palmer, but he was considering all his accomplishments and failures.

 

My point is, yes, there's been an abundance of cliches, and they were not handled very well, but I don't believe the romantic side is the center of their story. The EPs have stated multiple times that they throw crazy ideas at each other and then go "if we do this, we can do that, and that, and then that", and I think that's what happened in most of the cases you pointed out: they had an outcome in mind, and reached it through a path that would give them room to insert the romantic drama in it. Those you listed were consequences, and not the target of the narrative, IMO.

 

I believe the perception of greater focus on the relationship drama is an effect of the failure of the villain arc, not the other way around.

 

(I got nothing on Palmer)

Edited April 13, 2015 by looptab

[kismet]

Well, I think there is a difference between saying that they rely on romantic cliches and that the show revolves around the main couple getting together or not. I thought you were implying the latter, in your previous post. Still, I have a different interpretation for the points you made:

 

1- The identity theme: I'm now firmly convinced that they pulled this theme just because they wanted Oliver to be Ra's al Ghul;

 

2- I think MM's involvement provided them the excuse to bring Thea in the thick of the story;

 

3- The talk about the show around the Internet -by fans- does not revolve exclusively around relationship. Sure, a portion of the fandom focuses mostly on that, and the media outlets do too, but mostly to generate buzz;

 

4- Oliver wasn't just concerned about Felicity being with Palmer, but he was considering all his accomplishments and failures.

 

My point is, yes, there's been an abundance of cliches, and they were not handled very well, but I don't believe the romantic side is the center of their story. The EPs have stated multiple times that they throw crazy idea at each other and then go "if we do this, we can do that, and that, and then that", and I think that's what happened in most of the cases you pointed out: they had an outcome in mind, and reached it through a path that would give them room to insert the romantic drama in it. Those you listed were consequences, and not the target of the narrative, IMO.

 

I believe the perception of greater focus on the relationship drama is an effect of the failure of the vilain arc, not the other way around.

 

(I got nothing on Palmer)

Yes, I agree that most of the greater focus on the relationship drama has been a failure of the villain arc. I also feel this season has been too driven by plot & not character, so there is another major stumbling point. You brought up some good interpretations/points as well. :) The only point I will slightly defend against is your #3, I never said relationships were "exclusively" what was being discussed by fans/media. I said "heavily revolving"around, which means they talked about it a lot, but there have been other stuff discussed as well. But it does feel like an abundance of stuff that has been discussed somehow relates back to the romantic angst/drama, where in other seasons it has been hero or team/family angst/drama; or completely unrelated to angst/drama but rather just the characters or story itself.

 

I never meant to imply that the romantic drama was so the sole intent or driving force of their narrative. It should always be part of it, but never the sole force. It is part of the equation of the narrative, so if one part is failing the other side takes on more burden/focus. If they had written better character & season arcs, then we would not be in this situation of relying on romantic angst/drama or cliches to fill the voids.

 

So I apologize if you misunderstood what I was trying to say in the initial post. I was responding to the previous posts that implied that the romantic tension of will they/won't they is something the show is/would/should use to keep audience attention. IMO, I prefer a more balanced approach to story-telling on a show like Arrow where you have the ability to do drama, comedy, action, romance and intrigue. I don't think will they/won't they is one of the stronger story telling tools they have in their arsenal. It works on a show that is more geared towards procedural (where the romantic tension is part of the continuity) or dramas/comedies that are more soapy in nature where the romantic tension is their bread & butter. I think it has a very short shelf life as audience bait on a show like Arrow.

[Starfish35]

Should maybe this discussion be taken to the Relationships thread?

Edited April 13, 2015 by Starfish35

[looptab]

Moved to Relationships thread :)

Edited April 13, 2015 by looptab

[CabotCove]

 David Ramsey pours out some truth tea:

 

https://41.media.tumblr.com/51a161ac690130dccbacae486c9bedc9/tumblr_nmnzf7BQcb1tkr8smo1_540.jpg

 

He is entitled to his opinion. I understand if he wants better for Diggle and Im championing for the character too but in the end I believe its the creators/writers who knows what the core of their show really is and about. And yeah like someone noted earlier they pretty much disagree.

 

Love how he comments while saying he'll never comment.

 

He gets a facepalm from me.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Conell

[catrox14]

He is entitled to his opinion. I understand if he wants better for Diggle and Im championing for the character too but in the end I believe its the creators/writers who knows what the core of their show really is and about. 

 

The show is about Oliver Queen becoming the Green Arrow. Or at least it was until this idiotic season when the writers decided it was now about being a launching pad for the Tin Man and every other superhero they could dream of .

 

Oliver wouldn't even be the Arrow if not for his alliance with Felicity and Diggle. So yes I think David is correct. And I think the show would do well to remember that dynamic was a huge reason the show succeeded at all.

Edited April 14, 2015 by catrox14

[CabotCove]

The show is about Oliver Queen becoming the Green Arrow. Or at least it was until this idiotic season when the writers decided it was now about being a launching pad for every other superhero they could dream of .

Oliver wouldn't even be the Arrow if not for his alliance with Felicity and Diggle.

 

Why not, they would still have wrote that evolution in anyway, some other way. All it takes is the words and ink,thats what they do, imagine and write. And in any case I really dont totally credit Felicity/Diggle for Oliver becoming Arrow/heroic, emphasis on totally, to me its part his determination and help from other people outside Diggle/Felicity . So it couldn't have been an issue.... in my view.

 

"The show is about Oliver Queen becoming the Green Arrow". Exactly it is about that and pretty much other aspect of his life story.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Conell

[CabotCove]

starlingsmoaked asked:

Forgive me for any unintentional frustrations this question might give off ('cuz I'm totally not frustrated)...BUT, is it wrong for Arrow fandom to feel nervous that with the success of the Flash, & all the hoopla about the spin-off, that Arrow is going to turn into the estranged annoying cousin no one wants at the dinner table? I speak for many when I say we feel like a grave is being involuntarily dug for Arrow down the line. Please tell me we're being foolish. We won't take offense :)

It’s a perfectly legitimate question as we continue to expand the universe.  Greg, Andrew and I are committed to making sure that Arrow stays Arrow, with all the quality that (hopefully) implies.  Arrow is the show that launched all this and we’re always talking about how we need to “protect the mothership.”  I think the final five episodes of this season prove that we’re not taking our foot off the gas.

 

LOL what a question

 

Now they're in a bind, IMO, because the people who wanted comics and thought Laurel should have been BC long ago are all excited and ready for the next stage of thed comic journey (I've seen a number of posts saying it's about time and Team Arrow should be Arrow/BC/Arsenal and Diggle and Felicity should go off and do something else or even killed off), and the people who got pulled into the show with the good characterizations and original characters in season 1 and 2 are pretty unhappy with the direction things are going right now.

 

 I dont think thats entirely fair. The "comics people" do possibly like good characterizations and plots too, I dont think liking more comics-inspired stories means that one stops caring for good storytelling. At least its not everyone.  I have heard some comic fans  being very disappointed with this season too, for similar reasons or entirely different ones.

 

I thought it would be fun to have a thread for discussing filming and other techniques used in the production of Arrow.  Lighting, sets, and angles can contribute immensely to the ambience and impact of a show.

 

Awesome thread topic. Thanks OP.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Conell

[catrox14]

Why not, they would still have wrote that evolution in anyway, some other way. All it takes is the words and ink,thats what they do, imagine and write. And in any case I really dont totally credit Felicity/Diggle for Oliver becoming Arrow/heroic, emphasis on totally, to me its part his determination and help from other people outside Diggle/Felicity . So it couldn't have been an issue.... in my view.

 

"The show is about Oliver Queen becoming the Green Arrow". Exactly it is about that and pretty much other aspect of his life story.

 

But they did write it as Felicity and Diggle being the people that were in his life to show him other ways. If the characters were named Suzy and Kenneth it would still be Team Arrow.  They were there to support him and admonish him as the effective characters that made the most difference in his life to his life goal of saving Starling City.  He couldn't do the job alone anymore and Oliver chose Diggle and Felicity to be his partners and friends. There were no other characters that served the roles that Felicity and Diggle did.That doesn't mean any other characters don't matter to Oliver's journey, but those 3 were the core of accomplishing that journey. 

Tommy was the catalyst to not killing again, but he didn't help Oliver do his work as the Arrow.

 

 I find it hard to argue against David Ramsey's opinion here.   

Edited April 14, 2015 by catrox14

[statsgirl]

 I dont think thats entirely fair. The "comics people" do possibly like good characterizations and plots too, I dont think liking more comics-inspired stories means that one stops caring for good storytelling. At least its not everyone.  I have heard some comic fans  being very disappointed with this season too, for similar reasons or entirely different ones.

 

 

I agree.  That's why it's " the people who wanted comics and thought Laurel should have been BC long ago" rather than "people who came to the show from reading the comics."

 

There are some viewers who would prefer to have comics canon over good story-telling to the extent that they want Diggle side-lined as well as Felicity on the new show and only the "true team" Arrow/BC/Arsenal in the field, and after this season, when Oliver's journey took a back seat to Ra's, Malcolm Merlyn, The Atom and Insta Canary, they have great expectations.

 

I don't see how the producers are going to be able to satisfy both groups..

Edited April 14, 2015 by statsgirl

[Velocity23]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=356876574523504&set=vb.171286136415883&type=2&theater

 

David Ramsey showing his shirtless body in this video Paul Blackthorne posted.