Social Media and Behind the Scenes: AKA Everything Else Not "News and Media"

[dtissagirl]

Maybe Prometheus had a secret twin brother Promotheus that was responsible for all the marketing and public relations at Olympus. And this is the one Arrow is using.

[tv echo]

SA's post-509 facebook video chat (warning: spoilery)...
https://www.facebook.com/stephenamell/videos/1227836867301578/

[statsgirl]

Pepper Dempsey, a fan who wasn't happy with the episode, wrote a good,  respectful message on SA's FB wall, pointing out many of the things we've talked about here.  (If you agree, a 'like' might bring it to his attention.)

(sorry for the double link, I can't remove it  )

[EmilyBettFan]

Someone said her post got filtered that's why nobody can find it. I tried looking for it. It couldn't find it. 

[MaisyDaisy]

This is what she wrote for those who cant find it. (not sure if I needed to edit it differently? Behind a cut or something?)

 

Stephen,

I can only imagine the personal ritual you have when you sit down to read through your visitor posts after an episode you know may have left viewers with many questions.

At the end of the day, you just want people to enjoy the show. Conversely, you’ve freely admitted that you’re OK with your page becoming a sounding board of discussion (as long as it’s not purposely spiteful, hurtful or an attack on you/family or visitors). You open yourself up as a point of contact for differing perspectives that need a little guidance, knowing that you won’t always have a satisfying answer. So, get some coffee before you read my post, light a candle or something, and know that I truly appreciate that you take the time to even read these concerns, so I feel entirely comfortable when I say WHAT IN THE DANG HELL WAS LAST NIGHT.

Just for a moment, put aside the notion that I’m “just a shipper who can’t always get what they want”---but an impassioned and loyal viewer that is beyond confused and disheartened by the show that seems to be a shell of its former self. This is midseason; the point when the path should be paved for viewers to understand where things may be headed. I truly have NO idea where this show is going, which isn’t something I’m used to as a viewer who’s been savvy/observant enough to figure it out without someone holding my hand. Is it really that ridiculous of me to expect some clarity in the direction of the season and then be pissed off because despite assurances, nothing ever seems to pay out? I’ve spent 4 years doing it so far with Arrow and continue to tune in, so it’s not like I’m incapable of seeing the deeper context. That tells me that *my* power of perception hasn’t changed, but the show itself, and unexpectedly so. That freaks me out. It makes me question the previous 4 seasons and no show should ever make their viewer question that.

A well rounded, well written story will sell itself. It has layers that gently reveal themselves as the season progresses, giving us glimpses of what’s to come. At this point, I’m pulling these layers off myself and I’m still not seeing any cohesiveness. It’s not just the fiction of the show that creates these layers, the promotional efforts and discussion off air adds to these layers. Normally, everything should meld together, but it just looks like some terrible attempt at a paper mache project I made in third grade. A certain faction of the fandom was CLEARLY misled in what I assume was an attempt to gain more live viewership. You teased, Beth teased, Marc teased, all of which instilled a sense of excitement the Olicity fandom hasn’t felt in very long time. But after last night, I feel genuinely misled.

I legitimately feel that what I would normally consider a beautiful scene (the Olicity flashback), was actually a last minute addition. I don’t think there was any intention to have that scene and I feel it was clearly placed to appease us. The only way I would be happy with that flashback is if the show touches back on it in the very near future. “I believe in magic, Felicity.” Okay? And what does that have to do with their current storyline? How does that reflect with the present day situation? It doesn’t, and it lost all the charm it should’ve had. Even Entertainment Weekly commented in their review that it felt as if shippers are being taunted.

Also, earlier this season, Felicity said her and Oliver “don’t have that kind of relationship anymore?” Then why did she walk to him like a doting girlfriend to congratulate him after his speech, the same time Susan does? Oh yes; it was written purely to embarrass her character, again. I feel like everything Felicity was in S3 and S4 was completely dumped so certain factions of viewers could have the sugar puff babbling comic relief of Felicity, which is so incredibly disheartening. (By the way, the lack of press from Emily is tangible this year, tweeting more about other shows than her own, and that tells me a lot about her appreciation for her current storyline).

I don’t want to be the viewer who doesn’t give things a chance, who takes things too seriously, but story patience walks a thin line with starving interest. To understand the layers, I need to understand that I’m not the general audience. I’m just more aware, more involved because I’m online, watching things unfold behind the scenes (via online promo), cast interactions, cons, and various tid bits. That unfairly casts an expectation upon the show, so I put those things aside, and try to view the show as general audience. I did that last night, and I’ve done that many nights, hoping to see this 10/10, but it went completely over my head. There are some things going over your head too, it seems. A viewer made a nice post, wanting to understand why Oliver went to Susan’s (surely you have enough understanding of your character and the writers sensibility to explain it) –instead of checking in on Felicity; his currently platonic partner and probable love of his life. Instead you answered with, “Oliver didn’t sleep with Susan.” Ok. Great. But, what about the rest of the question?

That your answer unintentionally caters to the mentality of certain people that claim all we care about is that Oliver isn’t with Felicity. Frankly I could give two shits if Oliver boinked Susan. That’s life. Oliver’s human, and frankly I wouldn’t be surprised if Felicity does the same soon with someone else (girl deserves a good ol’ boink fest after what she’s been through). What I care about is *when*…..and THAT was the worst possible timing.

Oliver was clearly devastated that he had just killed Malone, and Stephen you did a superb job at conveying those emotions. I could clearly see you gave it your all, and I could actually see the physical manifestation of those emotions in the way you carried yourself. What pisses me off is that your hard work in that scene, a feeling that should’ve stuck with me, was immediately overshadowed by the events after.

Is this the same Oliver who literally scaled Felicity’s balcony to talk about why she kept Billy a secret from him? NOPE. I think Oliver’s actions would’ve been more understandable had we seen him approach Felicity in the loft, in which (in true Felicity fashion) she tells him she needs to be alone. THEN Oliver going to Susan’s would jive a bit more, especially when he says he “didn’t know where else to go.” Mmmhmm. I can’t help but be reminded of the infamous “OOPS we forgot Roy on the pavement in Season 3,” a point in which the show producer himself admitted was an oversight. Will this be an oversight in a year as well?

It BLOWS my mind that two women wrote an episode in which Felicity’s boyfriend is killed, yet everyone comforts Oliver instead. It’s 100% in character for Felicity to say she wants to be alone, but at this point, YOU NEED TO SHOW THIS. We NEED to see this attempt being made by Oliver, because honestly, that’s what he would’ve done if we know Oliver’s character at all (which I HATE that I’m starting to question).

Felicity, who I consider 2nd next to GA as I suspect a VAST MAJORITY of viewers do, was the better hero last night; forgiving Oliver more quickly than I would forgive the bagger who put my eggs on top of my bread in the grocery store. My perceived deeper context there is that it’s a testament to the amount of understanding Felicity has for Oliver, and how absolutely gut wrenching it must’ve felt for him to have to tell her he just killed Malone. If this show has any intention of showcasing why Oliver and Felicity truly are endgame, that would’ve been a fantastic opportunity to showcase what makes their journey so special, a worth it. But guess what? ANOTHER nice moment overshadowed by hoopla that doesn’t jive. It’s like a could literally see Felicity’s character fading into the background while she told Oliver it wasn’t his fault (which it wasn’t).

The opportunity to reaffirm why Oliver and Felicity make the best of partners was completely missed. What did Oliver think Felicity would burst into flames if he hugged her? JESUS. You’ve said yourself; we don’t care about Oliver’s journey if we can’t care about the relationships. I’m not even looking for the romantic element to be entertained, just the fact that Felicity and Oliver have a partnership that goes beyond anything any other character that ever comes on this show can have or understand.

Thea comforted Felicity, and that’s great, but what about the other 5 men standing around them? What is with this mentality? This show excelled at one point of honoring the fact that women on this show can be just as vital to the progression of the overall story and THAT is why I’m upset. This show gave women a voice, a point of view when many other shows weren’t doing that. Of course I see why Oliver needed that comfort, that reassurance, but forgive me for feeling that Felicity’s pain is only there exclusively for Oliver’s manpain, while her opportunity for development is left behind. I half expect 5.10 to come back with Felicity being all chipper and that cutesy sugar puff that apparently the show thinks she’s meant for I’m aware she has some kind of storyline coming up in the back half, but your bosses/writers need to wet/tease the palette of your viewers early on, not just drop it half way through.

Now, after 9 episodes in, my assumption is that a female viewers opinion is unwanted by everyone, and the growing perception is that Arrow doesn’t want a primary audience of fans who expect a 4 year long arc of Oliver and Felicity’s relationship to make sense, or independent storylines for Felicity to pay off. I truly do not believe you feel this way about your female viewers in particular, so feel free to prove this perception wrong because that’s why I’m coming to you in the first place. No, you don’t write the show. You get the script, you have some input I’m assuming, and you act.

However, you admitted that you “sat down” (in an EW article) with the producers early S4, when you felt some things were getting lost or overshadowed. I totally get that. You want the best for the show that you've committed so much too, but are you really that surprised when people insinuate that perhaps you felt GA’s story wasn’t quite going in the direction you’d hoped? Is this why we’re seeing less and less of Felicity, more newbies, and being told there’s “not time for romance” while Oliver plays tonsil hockey with Susan and Felicity can date a detective that could’ve easily discovered she works for GA? Ok. My intention is not to slight you but it’s a completely legitimate question and if you chose to reveal that information, you had to be aware this may pose some questions which you can choose to answer or not.

Overall, yes, I find humor in the show when I’m supposed to, I get thrilled when I’m supposed to, but I still walk away feeling completely at a loss of the meaning of it all. That’s never happened before, and I’m so so sad about it. If you and your costars truly believed the story that your show is trying to sell is working, then why are we being asked at cons our true feelings about the progress of the show with the addition of the newbies, from a star on the show? Can you understand why I’d be even slightly suspicious over that? The way the show has been handled this season by the network, producers and stars has 100% affected my engagement & viewership.

I just feel like if someone doesn’t have a mask, their character is limited and questions pertaining to that character are cast aside or categorized as “entitled shipper concerns that don’t matter.” Your writers room made that very clear when they liked a tweet that literally said, “don’t read Olicity comments” last night, or various cast and crew that like tweets that demean a faction of viewers and even its own female lead as if it’s an inconvenience to have them.

I don’t think it’s any secret to you that this season is easily causing some of the most heated discussions on your page and Twitter. The awful death threats your cast-mates and bosses received from comic fans last season? Those are not discussions. That is comic entitlement at its finest and I can’t believe I’ve even entertained the idea that the writers/network catered to any of those threats.

I make no secret of my dislikes but I equally honor the things that stand out about the show. I truly love this show so much, and it’s a great escape from a crazy life. I have enough outlets to focus on for this show to not be my only resource of entertainment and comfort, but I just feel that the amount of people you think are being entertained this year is actually far less than previous seasons. That’s awful, because I know you work your ass off for this show, as well as your colleagues, but I’m starting to question if the 4 years I spent with this show was actually what I thought it was. It’s like being in a relationship with someone who reveals their true colors when you least expect it.

Why has Arrow become my crappy paper mache project from third grade? Can you make sense of these layers for me? I truly believe time is of the essence after last night, if you want to see a good return in viewership and positive engagement after winter hiatus.

Please help shed some light without saying “you can’t always get what you want”----because I really REALLY want to see this show return to its former glory. You guys had it, and I’m just not sure why you took it apart.

xoxo

[lemotomato]

That's a 2400 word essay. I'm sorry, but I feel like maybe a more succinct post would be more likely to get a response from SA.

ETA: I was wrong, and he responded. 

Edited December 9, 2016 by lemotomato

[statsgirl]

There were plenty of shorter posts that he could have read.  His response to the comments that everyone comforted Oliver while Felicity was left alone and then Oliver went to Susan to get more comfort was so say that Oliver didn't sleep with her.  So not the point.

It's hard to know what to do.  Smoke n Arrow stopped organizing trending tweets to try to get their attention but they didn't care so she's trying with Felicity/Olicity trends again.

I think many people are reaching the "I'll give it one last try and then I'm gone" stage.  The "art' that the  Writers Room retweeted last week, their liking a tweet that said "Don't listen to Olicity shippers' and Bamford liking a tweet this week from someone with a distorted Hillary twitter picture (no one with eyes could miss that one) just keeps sending the message that no matter what we say or do, they don't care.

[wonderwall]

Sorry I got spurred on by a tweet that was less than happy with his response... and it led to this rant...

I don't understand what people want from Stephen. Because they are never going to get Stephen to agree with their issues with the show. The only thing I recall him agreeing with was how Oliver stopped being a formidable fighter - which, is an opinion that isn't so complex unlike real human feelings on the show and characterization. 

I think people have to realize that while it's nice to vent and it's nice for Stephen to read your comment and maybe even write a response to it, it's unfair to put him between a rock and a hard place. What is he supposed to do? If he agrees with complaints about the show that might not make the EPs and Network happy. If he disagrees then fans complain. And even then if he comes up with a response people complain that he "completely misses the point" but in reality it's because there's literally nothing he can say that wouldn't get him in trouble. 

But in the end, he has almost zero say in what happens on the show. Being frustrated or angry with him with respect to the show is pretty much the definition of shooting the messenger, imo. Because this isn't his story, he's just acting it and all he can do is support the writers. It does no actor ANY good to go against the writers/EPs, especially to those who want a career beyond this show. 

So while I'm all for being vocal about our opinions etc. I also think it's important not to shoot the messenger so to speak...

Edited December 9, 2016 by wonderwall

[Princess Vanellope]

He should not respond.  Period.  Here's my thing: if you're in a no win situation when it comes to how people take your comments, YOU SHUT THE HELL UP!!  Don't respond to any of the comments for awhile, positive or negative.  I'm sure that people would complain about lack of response, but who cares.  Just post your thoughts or pictures or whatever.  Don't reply on personal posts.  It's really quite simple.  

[lemotomato]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

There were plenty of shorter posts that he could have read.  His response to the comments that everyone comforted Oliver while Felicity was left alone and then Oliver went to Susan to get more comfort was so say that Oliver didn't sleep with her.  So not the point.

It's hard to know what to do.  Smoke n Arrow stopped organizing trending tweets to try to get their attention but they didn't care so she's trying with Felicity/Olicity trends again.

I think many people are reaching the "I'll give it one last try and then I'm gone" stage.  The "art' that the  Writers Room retweeted last week, their liking a tweet that said "Don't listen to Olicity shippers' and Bamford liking a tweet this week from someone with a distorted Hillary twitter picture (no one with eyes could miss that one) just keeps sending the message that no matter what we say or do, they don't care.

Let me rephrase: I think anyone should voice their concerns about the show to whomever they want, in whatever way they want, as long as it's respectful. However, if they want/expect an answer from SA/the writers/EPs, they also have to accept that they're not necessarily going to respond in the way they want. SA/the EPs/writers are never ever going to publicly admit they're wrong while the season is still in progress. At the end of the season, maybe. But never during. They didn't budge last year, when the comics fans complained, and they're not going to this season when the shippers are unhappy.

[EmilyBettFan]

I don't really agree with him having zero say in the show. He got his way with Oliver not being a playboy anymore. He apparently talked to the producers about baby mama storyline. I think he has a least somewhat of a say. 

Also he put himself in the pickle. He shouldn't just gravitate to the posts that are "all the best SA! This show is awesome" or whatever. There are genuine complaints out there put eloquently and he has never actually responded well to any of them. We know he doesn't write the show. It's not about that. It's about him missing the entire points of a certain post and then just saying "im sorry you feel that way." Every single time I've read a well thought out post that's what he writes. It's like a text book comment or a computer spitting out the same thing. 

I know it's great to have good feedback but they also need to remember that those kudos don't make the show perfect. They need to remember and not act like the show is perfect. Which the way these male posters on Facebook act like the show IS perfect now.

I saw a comment that said Oliver should be with supergirl. This is the same people who don't like romance and just want to see Oliver sexing up people. If these are the types of people they want well f us all. I'm sorry but these are the same people who don't like romance but want it with BC. Ridiculous and stupid.

[Midnight Lullaby]

I didn't read pepper's post because it's waaaay too long, anyway IMO there's no point in ranting about the show on his page, especially if it is about how females are treated. It's a big problem and he said it himself, he is just a guy working on a show, that's the best answer they are going to get. It's a waste of time and energy. I also get though that people that love him seek an acknowledgement from him and think he is going to care about their concerns but I doubt they'll ever get the reply they wish for.

Also the Olicity scene was a tease, LOL. I believe they wouldn't have put it in there if they planned to never bring them back together again but it doesn't make it any less of a tease for the fans they want to come back to watch the show after the hiatus..

[dtissagirl]

I'm suddenly remembering the Uproxx journalist who posited that Disney might have a problem with Marvel's misogynistic fandom/properties because they pride themselves in NOT having that kind of optics, while Time Warner doesn't give a flying fuck if DC Comics/DCTV/DCU's fandom is a cesspool of sexism. They don't care. The mandate to not no care comes from the top. Steve could be the most engaged feminazi of all time [he's totally not, but if he were], and his employers would still not care.

[ladylaw99]

At the end of the day this is his job.  He is in a tough situation (I think he put himself in that situation).  He is dam if he does and dam if he doesn't.  This is his job and we will never know how he really feels until he is maybe done with Arrow.  We all have aspects of our job we do not agree with and sometimes we just have to go with the flow which I think he does.

 I am not happy with this season (I don't hate it) but I put that on the writers not SA.  I am not on social media so I don't see alot of the snark from the EPs, cast etc (unless I read it here) so I am not as invested as some of his fans.

It might be smart of him to not respond at this point because he clearly will not make anyone happy with his responses. That is just MO.

[bijoux]

Joe Dinicol is adorable. And I actually find Madison McLaughlin very cute when I don't have to watch her act.

[tv echo]

Tyler Ritter's final Arrow tweets (from Dec. 7)...

"It's finally Take Your Lunchbox to Work Day. And yes, that means Malone is getting back to work TONIGHT in a big way. #ArrowMidseasonFinale"
https://twitter.com/TylerRitter/status/806589611858214912

"Have to wait 2 more hours for this #Arrow episode but my 6th sense just told me Malone is currently gearing up to kick some ass for his girl"
https://twitter.com/TylerRitter/status/806671651622400000

"I'm gonna guess he's doing what he was born to do: save Star City, one factory at a time (The superheroes tend to move more quickly) ??"
https://twitter.com/TylerRitter/status/806673902168457216

"Had one hell of a ride with @CW_Arrow cast and crew! @StephenAmell gave me an epic send off and @EmilyBett was simply the best. Thank you! ?"
https://twitter.com/TylerRitter/status/806727191996174336

"The world was wide enough for both olicity and me.."
https://twitter.com/TylerRitter/status/806746792410779650

[Morrigan2575]

This is just in relation to the fact that some paps keep saying that EBR is filming less this season.  I'm not talking about, nor do I care about, the quality of screentime vs actual screentime (and to be honest, neither do the actors when it comes to their paychecks)

501-508 compared to 401-408

Thea is down 23.6 minutes

Diggle is down 18.6 minutes

Felicity is down 17.4 minutes

Lance is down 13.0 minutes

Oliver is up 8.6 minutes

Episode Average wise

Thea is down 2.95 minutes per episode

Diggle is down 2.32 minutes per episode

Felicity is down 2.18 minutes per episode

Lance is down 1.63 minutes per episode

Overall ranks

Oliver , Felicity, Wild Dog, Curtis, Thea, Diggle, Artemis, Ragman, Lance, Adrian, Laurel, Malcolm

The reality is that all of the main actors are down except Oliver and, there's a very simple explanation for it, the show added 4 noobs which are taking up screentime by having interactions among themselves.  Of the 3 main supporting characters (Diggle, Felicity, Thea) Felicity is down the least.  Lance is still down but he's down less than the others, which doesn't seem like a big deal (to me) because he usually gets very little screentime.  This may also change a bit since he wasn't in 509 but, I don't think we're getting those numbers anyway.

Edited December 9, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[tv echo]

At ACMI's Superhero Identities Symposium in Melbourne, AU, on Dec. 8-9, 2016, there was a panel on "Fandom," which included a speech titled "'Felicity Smoak is a superhero': CW's Arrow and the Felicity Smoak fandom" that was given by Bertha Chin, Swinburne University of Technology:
https://www.acmi.net.au/media/4550714/superhero-identities-symposium-final-schedule-v7.pdf

Here are some tweets from that panel...

".@bertha_c says it is @CW_Arrow's fans that make Felicity Smoak a hero. #SuperheroesACMI"
https://twitter.com/ACMI/status/806731402725048320

"Really great examination of Felicity Smoak’s popularity with #Arrow fans, esp. on social media, from @bertha_c at #SuperheroesACMI."
https://twitter.com/McKenzie_Ben/status/806731044284035072

(FYI, this Ben McKenzie is not the actor.)

Edited December 9, 2016 by tv echo

[statsgirl]

That's interesting.  And oh so ironic.  Again, it's the character of Felicity getting the attention that the CW and now the show doesn't give her.

12 hours ago, wonderwall said:

I don't understand what people want from Stephen.

They want to be heard.  They want to have acknowledgement that they have these feelings instead of being dismissed with "it's just a show, enjoy it".

The best way to get someone to change in therapy is to say "I understand why you feel this way/why you're doing this".  The best way to defuse an argument is to say "I understand how you're feeling and why.  It's understandable that  you feel that way".  There is nothing that I've found that is more powerful in bringing about the ability to get the other person to move from their position than to acknowledge and justify the other person's position. 

Instead SA and the EPs are doubling down on their position of liking tweets that love the season and are anti Felicity/Olicity to the extent that they are liking or retweeting some very offensive tweets.

SA also missed the point of the post.  I have no doubt that the red pen scene was in the script from the begining, and I think the poster doesn't either. The problem with the scene is that it feels like blatant fan pandering to keep Olicity watchers watching while they write an anti-Olicity storyline.

11 hours ago, EmilyBettFan said:

I don't really agree with him having zero say in the show. He got his way with Oliver not being a playboy anymore. He apparently talked to the producers about baby mama storyline. I think he has a least somewhat of a say.

Exactly.  In season 2 he got a lot of complaints about Oliver sleeping around so he went to the EPs and argued for ending Oliver's "caravan of women".  It ended.  He got in the "Oliver sees William at Jitters" scene, and he sees early drafts of the scripts before the other cast members do and views the director's cut of the episodes.  He is not without influence among the EPs much less the writers room.

3 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

The reality is that all of the main actors are down except Oliver and, there's a very simple explanation for it, the show added 4 noobs which are taking up screentime by having interactions among themselves.  Of the 3 main supporting characters (Diggle, Felicity, Thea) Felicity is down the least.  Lance is still down but he's down less than the others, which doesn't seem like a big deal (to me) because he usually gets very little screentime.  This may also change a bit since he wasn't in 509 but, I don't think we're getting those numbers anyway.

As some said earlier, it's not the amount of screen time that is the problem, it's the fact that all of Felicity's screen time is about other characters. Encouraging Oliver to get a new team was about bringing in new characters, Havenrock was about Ragman, having a boyfriend was so that Oliver could kill him, Mayo fridging was for Oliver's manpain and I fully expect Felicity to join Curtis in creating a startup so that Curtis will find happiness after Paul left him.

[apinknightmare]

30 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

The best way to get someone to change in therapy is to say "I understand why you feel this way/why you're doing this".  The best way to defuse an argument is to say "I understand how you're feeling and why.  It's understandable that  you feel that way".  There is nothing that I've found that is more powerful in bringing about the ability to get the other person to move from their position than to acknowledge and justify the other person's position. 

He's not going to do this, though. To acknowledge that people's disappointment is understandable is to acknowledge that there's something to be disappointed in. Maybe it'll happen over the summer hiatus when they're selling the fix to whatever it is the EPs decide they've done wrong this season, but it isn't gonna happen now. 

[Carrie Ann]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

SA also missed the point of the post.  I have no doubt that the red pen scene was in the script from the begining, and I think the poster doesn't either. The problem with the scene is that it feels like blatant fan pandering to keep Olicity watchers watching while they write an anti-Olicity storyline.

He might have misunderstood the first part, but he did address the second part. He denied that there was any such motive or goal. People don't have to believe him--and maybe he's wrong, because he doesn't sit in on writers' meetings--and they don't have to like his answer, but he did address it.

In general, I thought his response was saying "I hear you." I see several lines in that response that say that, particularly the last few. I don't know how else he could have said that without agreeing with her. To say, "I understand why you feel like that," is to agree that there has been a failure somewhere, IMO. Admitting that something in the story has failed is Marc and Wendy's job, not his. And in addition to that being an unrealistic expectation, I think that he doesn't agree with that premise. So instead of saying "I understand why," he said, "I hear that you do," and then responded to the factual issues.

I appreciated his response--even if I don't share his enthusiasm for the season--and I definitely don't feel that way a lot of the time. I think he often comes across as flippant or dismissive or sarcastic. To me, this just felt honest.

Edited December 9, 2016 by Carrie Ann

[LeighAn]

First off I thought both the post from Pepper and the reply from Stephen was respectful I also appreciate that Stephen not only replied and shared the post but he sought out the OP on Twitter to let her know that he wasn't intentionally deleting or hiding her posts. He didn't have to do that but he did. 

So to me it was a lot better then Con-gate a few weeks ago

One thing I took away from the Facebook video about con gate is that he took personally the insinuation that he dismisses fans, so maybe this is his attempt to try to rectify that which bully for him I say. So on that I give him a pass.

Speaking generally now, I personally feel based on my own experiences that the show people can express understanding when dealing with viewers complaints.

WhenI was in high school and college I worked in customer service at a management level and when dealing with customer complaints we were told the rule of thumb was to listen to the complaint without interruption, express apology, satisfy/rectify the problem then thank the customer for their complaint. I always prided myself on being able to turn a customer around from screaming down the phone at the start of the conversation to thanking and complimenting me on my performance at the end of it. Even if I had to spend 20 30 minutes talking it out I understood that most customers aren't looking for compensation but want to be heard and that you take their complaint seriously and to not be made to feel like an idiot, wrong or a liar when they do ring or write through a complaint. In fact most customers don't actually like complaining at all because they don't want to seek out confrontation.

There were some co workers of mine when dealing with complaints would live up to customers fears and inject with excuses or get defensive or argue the validity or would automatically jump to what can I give you to get you out of my hair which just lead to the inevitable "I'll take my business else where".

If we are all customers of Arrow then I think the show people fall into that latter category. They miss the point that apologising to a customer isn't the same as taking culpability or agreeing with what the customer is saying. Nor is making the customer feel validated in their feelings a personal attack on your feelings and concerns. 

Saying "I understand that you feel mislead/unhappy/angry with the show right now and I'm sorry to hear that" is not saying that person is right in their opinion or admitting fault it's just validating and acknowledging that that persons right to be upset. 

The show people don't get that. Some are better then others I think Brian gets it and he does the best job he can, Beth also tries and Stephen is a mixed bag of sometimes he gets it sometimes he is truly tone death. But Marc Oscar Ben they can't look beyond themselves and take their own    feelings and opinions out of the equation to acknowledge the feelings of their customers. 

No your not going to make every veiwer happy, yes sometimes veuwers are wrong or misjudged the situation or didn't understand what you were/are going through or the problems issues behind the scenes that may be impacting their experience, but injecting defensive excuses or throwing their words back at them, arguing or being complacent to concerns doesn't win your business back.  

And for all the talk of this being their "Art" it's also the Star Bucks or Mc Donald's version of "Art"- Art for mass consumption and mass profit. And in a  peak tv phase currently viewers can take their business elsewhere to. 

[apinknightmare]

34 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

Saying "I understand that you feel mislead/unhappy/angry with the show right now and I'm sorry to hear that" is not saying that person is right in their opinion or admitting fault it's just validating and acknowledging that that persons right to be upset. 

I think it's fine to say "I understand that you feel (emotion), and I'm sorry" because like you wrote - that's not admitting fault. I do think that saying "It's understandable that you feel that way" as mentioned above is admitting that that there's something to be upset about.

I think Steve definitely has a bad attitude sometimes and can be dismissive sometimes as well. I don't read a whole lot of his Facebook replies, but it seems to me that he often does acknowledge people's disappointment and expresses his hope that the show can win them back. 

Edited December 9, 2016 by apinknightmare

[Cleanqueen]

Honestly Stephen gets a lot of flak for stuff that should be directed at EP's and the network. The fact that he is easily accessible is both a benefit and a hindrance because at the end of the day you are not going to please everyone. I know we want reassurance from him that things will get better but he can't fully tell us that if he himself isn't aware of it. He is getting it from both ends, olicity fans and non olicity fans. Yes he can choose to ignore it all but then he perhaps feels he isn't being genuine yet again.

Also Stephen won't change the environment because he CAN'T, the only way he can is if he turns off the wall or disables comments and it turns in to the CW Arrow page. He just feels like that isn't the most interactive way to connect with your fans.

And one major thing Olicity fans keep ignoring is that Stephen does tend to align himself with our side, he continues to comment on posts made mainly by olicity fans and still makes videos addressing our concerns. I think the guy can't win and people are extra mad on him because hes the only one who seems to give a damn and that isn't enough for some.

Edited December 9, 2016 by Cleanqueen

[Morrigan2575]

I think he's screwed no matter what. He ignores it, he's an asshole, he replies, he's an asshole. He says "I understand your feelings" he's being condescending and dismissive. He says "you can't always get what you want" he's an arrogant dick who treats his fans like crap.

Personally it's hysterical that I'm now defending and agreeing with the guy. I mean what dies THAT tell you?!  ?

Edited December 10, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[TwistedandBored]

Felicity Smaok is a superhero. I agree. 

[dtissagirl]

22 minutes ago, Cleanqueen said:

Also Stephen won't change the environment because he CAN'T, the only way he can is if he turns off the wall or disables comments and it turns in to the CW Arrow page. He just feels like that isn't the most interactive way to connect with your fans.

Well, he can, but it means hiring someone himself or signing with a social media managing service, and paying them to track the comments and flag those that need moderation. SA doesn't seem to want to do that, which is his prerogative, obviously, but it's not undoable. I know people in social media management whose job is this exactly -- keeping famous people's FB clean.

[Morrigan2575]

I hope Felicity Smoak is included in their lineup

https://twitter.com/OriginalFunko/status/807373482023481345

[LeighAn]

1 hour ago, apinknightmare said:

I think it's fine to say "I understand that you feel (emotion), and I'm sorry" because like you wrote - that's not admitting fault. I do think that saying "It's understandable that you feel that way" as mentioned above is admitting that that there's something to be upset about.

I think Steve definitely has a bad attitude sometimes and can be dismissive sometimes as well. I don't read a whole lot of his Facebook replies, but it seems to me that he often does acknowledge people's disappointment and expresses his hope that the show can win them back. 

Understanding or understandable is just a tomato tomato thing to me. I don't think saying you see someone's feelings as understandable means sharing or taking ownership or agreeing with those same feelings. But I won't press :)

I actually thought Stephen did a fairly good job of addressing the OP in a way that makes her feel acknowledged and since that OP got what looks like a wave of harassment afterwards I appreciated even more that Stephen also made a live video acknowledging that and calling that behaviour out but also to @dtissagirl point there are ways he can stop that outright.

[lemotomato]

43 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I hope Felicity Smoak is included in their lineup

https://twitter.com/OriginalFunko/status/807373482023481345

Since the replies said that Gamestop leaked the info, I did some googling and found this screenshot. 

Here's another list of upcoming Funko releases (although I don't know how far into the future it's supposed to cover). Nothing for DCTV. 
https://www.facebook.com/funkopophunters/posts/578908452311071

Edited December 10, 2016 by lemotomato

[Morrigan2575]

Makes sense that they're doing the adults. Maybe they'll add some teens into the 2nd round

[wonderwall]

All I will say is stalking people on social media and taking screenshots then mocking/accusing them of whatever on another board is beyond shitty and creepy.

As for Felicity's popularity, the following speaks for itself:

• She's still alive whereas... nevermind lol
• Felicity was in 3/4 crossovers and was in other mini crossovers this season as well (Flash/LoT)
• Felicity is still making "best character" lists
• Felicity was in the promo for Fight Club as well as the poster for the crossover
• It's been reported that when asking merchants - they usually say Felicity Pops! are the first one to get sold out
• The fact that Felicity/EBR gets the loudest cheers at cons (SDCC/COH2)
• Her lines for autographs/photo ops were extremely long - longer than other regular guests
• She still has the 2nd to most screen time

Anyways... Thank you for amusing me. I find it hilarious that in the same post where you try to call out misogyny within fandom - you also talk shit about other women and call them 'reviled'. Yikes.

Edited December 10, 2016 by wonderwall

[lemotomato]

49 minutes ago, anamika said:

These are the same people who cheered that the Black Canary, one of the few female super heroes out there, was fridged on the show for Oliver's manpain.

Actually, I was happy BC was gone because she served no narrative purpose to Oliver's storyline since season 2 and took up time on the show that could be better spent on other characters that mattered. I hate that the show retconned her significance to Oliver just because she's dead because he sure didn't  give a shit about her when she was alive.

And I have no idea why you think she's "one of the few female super heroes out there" when I can name 20 off the top of my head. 

Edited December 10, 2016 by lemotomato

[Chaser]

Just watched the reaction video SA posted on twitter. I think I'm cynical. My first thought was that he posted it because ratings didn't keep the boost and no one was talking about the super shocking surprise appearance.

"Echo chamber". Echos must be pretty loud if Olicity and Felicity are still trending and EPs/Writers feel the need to respond to fans (publically and privately).....and fans who clearly have a different viewpoint than the general vibe feel the need to make their opinion known so aggressively. 

[EmilyBettFan]

What's so different about this reaction? Has he ever posted reaction videos from other more surprising cliffhangers? I like him but he needs to stop. 

Those guys only liked LL because She was in a suit. Sara is the true BC of Arrow world.

Edited December 10, 2016 by EmilyBettFan

[wonderwall]

8 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

Actually, I was happy BC was gone because she served no narrative purpose to Oliver's storyline since season 2 and took up time on the show that could be better spent on other characters that mattered. And I have no idea why you think she's "one of the few female super heroes out there" when I can name 20 off the top of my head. 

Just in DCTV

• Sara
• Vixen
• Hawk Girl
• Speedy
• Felicity
• Supergirl
• Killer Frost (upcoming)
• Jessie Quick

So...

[Chaser]

The reaction video doesn't bother me. I read it as him trying to get the conversation going which is PR stuff. Arrow PR is just making me less enthusiastic at the moment. 

[lemotomato]

1 minute ago, wonderwall said:

Just in DCTV

• Sara
• Vixen
• Hawk Girl
• Speedy
• Felicity
• Supergirl
• Killer Frost (upcoming)
• Jessie Quick

So...

Also: Huntress, Katana, Nyssa

[wonderwall]

2 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

Also: Huntress, Katana, Nyssa

I wouldn't call them heroes that's why I left them out :)

[lemotomato]

But comics! Huntress and Katana were part of the Birds of Prey! You're no longer permitted to watch DCTV  because of lack of comic canon knowledge. 

Edited December 10, 2016 by lemotomato

[BkWurm1]

I read the post that SA replied to and while there were some good points, they were pretty buried.  I do wish if people are going to leave a post like that, that they'd be more concise and clear.  I think I agree with her but I didn't understand half of what she was trying to say, lol.

 I love that SA actually took the time to read and respond but I wish what he'd read had been more precise.  I wish someone could express the continued emotional disconnect some of us feel from the show this year because the characters themselves don't seem as genuine in their emotional choices (Like Oliver trusting the reporter instead of talking to a trusted team member or Mad Dog being the only one to care about Dig being at JJ's birthday party or Felicity's grief being ignored while Oliver gets comforted)   Lean into a few key specifics of the problem rather than a blanket statement, like that without seeing more of Felicity's ongoing emotional POV to things that affect her make it hard to connect to the show emotionally since we are only guessing what the character feels.  And not just the specific but why the specifics aren't organic to anything but plot.  Something like that as opposed to a polite, but rather emotional and confusing essay.  

I can't imagine that SA is going to read long posts like that all the time and so I'm bummed by the missed opportunity. Or maybe I'm wrong and what needed to get through, got through.  Crosses fingers.  

1 hour ago, lemotomato said:

But comics! Huntress and Katana were part of the Birds of Prey! You're no longer permitted to watch DCTV  because of lack of comic canon knowledge. 

Lol.  I just today got firmly reminded by someone binging the first season that Huntress is supposed to be a hero, not a villain. 

I get the hesitation over Huntress and Nyssa (Arrow's versions) not being straight out heroes, but why not Katana?  She was only a good guy.  

Edited December 10, 2016 by BkWurm1
Weird dangling thoughts in the wrong place, lol

[EmilyBettFan]

If they don't want fans to "become emotional" regarding the show maybe hey should just axe all emotion from the show then. 

If they can't handle genuine responses about the show maybe this isn't the medium for them.

[LeighAn]

3 hours ago, wonderwall said:

All I will say is stalking people on social media and taking screenshots then mocking/accusing them of whatever on another board is beyond shitty and creepy.

As for Felicity's popularity, the following speaks for itself:

• She's still alive whereas... nevermind lol
• Felicity was in 3/4 crossovers and was in other mini crossovers this season as well (Flash/LoT)
• Felicity is still making "best character" lists
• Felicity was in the promo for Fight Club as well as the poster for the crossover
• It's been reported that when asking merchants - they usually say Felicity Pops! are the first one to get sold out
• The fact that Felicity/EBR gets the loudest cheers at cons (SDCC/COH2)
• Her lines for autographs/photo ops were extremely long - longer than other regular guests
• She still has the 2nd to most screen time

Anyways... Thank you for amusing me. I find it hilarious that in the same post where you try to call out misogyny within fandom - you also talk shit about other women and call them 'reviled'. Yikes.

She was also just picked by a group of industry professionals including actors, producers, writers, talents agents etc as the 15th most popular female character of all time by Hollywood Reporter which is considered the industry's bible publication but Sure Jan, she's not the most popular aspect of Arrow. She's reviled.

Edited December 10, 2016 by LeighAn

[dtissagirl]

I never wanna step out of the echo chamber of this forum to go to places that hate Felicity. Why would I ever do that? This is my pretty bubble. It just happens that my bubble understands when a major entertainment trade polls industry people, and they say Felicity Smoak is one of the best female characters around.

[dtissagirl]

I can't speak for anyone else here except for me but -- I do not wanna do fandom by actively looking for people [and spaces] who don't see the show like I do, and confronting them about their opinions. I really really don't. That sounds not only exhausting, but pretty much like the opposite of a fun fandom experience. This forum happened to match with how I felt about the show -- people here favored Felicity and O/F even before I got here, and on top of that, it's a bunch of cranky and snarky people, which -- right up my alley. It felt female-friendly to female-moi in a sea of "comics are for boyzzzz only". So I stuck around here. If the forum suddenly became very adversarial and with many many many dissenting opinions all the time about my favorite character -- I would leave. Because then it would stop being fun.
 

6 minutes ago, anamika said:

And I guess this board is filled to the brim with misogynists considering how much hate BC gets on here.

I don't agree that hating a fictional woman equals misogyny. I see no problem at all in disliking a female character, for whatever reason. You hate Felicity, right? Pretty much the same qualms you have with the writing/portrayal of Felicity, I have about the writing/portrayal of Laurel. And that's okay. But I'm not gonna go out of my way into a Felicity-hating space and lecture them about it. Because I honestly do not see the point.

[MaisyDaisy]

I guess its the academic in me, that I have drummed into my head 'source, source, source'. I am a fact junkie, I mean with the internet at my finger tips is easy to quicky look things up right. So when someone says they have not been watching the source material since season 2 then claim that Felicity has been crap since then, I just ask myself- how do they know that if they are not watching? Kinda like how the comic crew worship Gail Simone and her hate towards Felicity, and here I am looking on confused, because all I see is a woman who admitted that she had never watched the show- only saw a couple of clips on youtube- and thats the 'proof' that she needed. Wow what a feminist icon huh? The cynical part of me thought her perspective might change if she actually had to watch the show.

It is exhausting to me how much some in the comic crew think simply stating something thus makes it true. So many times I have seen them provide a source that is from a comic website or the cess pit that became the Arrow Reddit and put it forward as a legit source. Opinion dressed up as fact doesn’t make it magically true.

Felicity is not widely hated. Based on what I see via popular media (not fangirl or comic biased sites), social media traffic- even what parents and the woman who work in my local Australian supermarket are saying.

As to the stalking- its gross don’t do it. I too hate RL Stemily shipping, however using it to negate points made in a totally unrelated debate is pure passive aggression. If you can throw enough shade then you can negate all her opinions. Sorry it just doesn’t work that way.

[Midnight Lullaby]

.....I understand not liking a popular character but that doesn't make a popular character any less popular. Felicity still makes lists as a fan favorite character, she trends. If we want to be accurate we should say she isn't only a fan favorite since she made the list for favorite characters voted by people in the industry.

Also since the EPs and writers bragged openly about how steady the ratings for Arrow were until last year and how awesome it was since almost all the others show were losing viewers saying they changed directions because of low ratings is incorrect. We can try to guess the real reason but we also have to consider facts.

And misogyny is misogyny and should be called out in all situations. TV has an impact because it can easily reach millions of people and either normalize an idea or make those people reflect on the fact that certain things aren't and shouldn't be considered normal. It's not a coincidence if minorities fight for representation also in shows and movies. We can all multitask and fight on all fronts for what we think is right.

Disliking a female fictional character isn't misogyny. Hating that character for crying or showing emotions because it's a woman is misogyny. And it's damn obvious when the same people get emotional about Barry crying every episode.

[apinknightmare]

3 hours ago, anamika said:

Maybe if they stepped outside this forum, they can get to engage other different viewpoints. Like what I am doing right now, despite the tone on here against anyone who has a different opinion, which the mods seem to be unable to do anything about.

And you know people here don't do this...how? Plenty of posters here do engage with people who have differing viewpoints - with people who hate Felicity and Olicity even! Just because we aren't leading the charge to go to anti-Felicity forums and try to change people's opinions of her - a true exercise in futility - doesn't mean that people here aren't aware there are people who hate her, and that we don't respectfully engage with those people elsewhere. 

8 hours ago, anamika said:

The writers have realized that Felicity is no longer the fan favorite she was in the early seasons, quite the opposite, and that pandering to a vocal group is doing them no favors. The winds have changed.

Hmmm...I don't think so. If TPTB didn't regard her as a draw, as a fan favorite still, she wouldn't have been on all three episodes of the crossover this year. This is something I'm sure the network has hard data on - and are going off of more than just the general temperature of the internet. 

8 hours ago, anamika said:

They could have killed her off in so many ways but they did it where she died 'shipping'! At that time there was no outcry of sexism or misogyny or how writers should listen to female voices from the Olicity brigade.

Not true. You're free to go back to check the evidence, but that she died shipping was pretty much universally hated and criticized here. Regardless of how posters here feel about Laurel, I can't recall a single person who didn't think that was a gross disservice to her as a character. We talked about it at length when she died. Also talked about at length when she died? That she was killed by Damien Darhk to get back at her father - to further a man's manpain - when Damien Darhk had plenty of reasons to want her dead himself (since she put him on trial and all). 

Edited December 10, 2016 by apinknightmare

[bijoux]

[tv echo]

Tweeted by Bertha Chin yesterday...

"Thanks to all the #FelicitySmoak fans for your interest in the conference paper. When I have time I'll try & out a version online."
https://twitter.com/bertha_c/status/807381302806614016