Season One Talk

[jhlipton]

I'm going to assume that anyone who posts here has seen the entire series, so there is no such thing as a "spoiler" for this thread.

Brought over from Capheus' thread:
 

I hope we avoid cluster triangle drama though (

 
Considering that the sense8's sense each other's emotions, I doubt a triangle would last long.  If Wolfgang and Capheus both fancied Kala and she fancied the both of them, the two men would share her love, feeling their own love in each other.  Kala would share both men's love -- very different but not exclusive, and the men would share Kala's love for the both of them.
 
That was one of the points about the orgy -- gender and sexuality didn't matter -- it was love among the sense8s shared in a physical manner.

[Athena]

A place to discuss particular episodes, arcs and moments from the show's first season. Please remember this isn't a complete catch-all topic -- check out the forum for character topics and other places for show-related talk.

[Boundary]

Good point regarding the orgy, I hadn't even considered it. But that was a sexual moment in time, romantic interest tends extend over quite a bit of time (I'd argue). So my logic is this: the others look at Will and Riley's romance as if one of their siblings found someone to love (take your pick who'd be the sibling and who'd be the "in-law" - - it gets confusing). But if Capheus developed feelings for Kala, Wolfgang would know too and his reaction (to compete or cede) is unknown. Capheus himself would know he had no chance if all she thought about was Wolfie, so that triangle drama would patter out. Thinking about it this way makes it a valid point for the show to ponder but I fear doing so would threaten the most attractive aspect of the show right now: the one team ethos. Could they share the love? They are still individuals, with selfishness, petty jealousies and what not. The only difference being that they can't hide those from the others. Drama ensues. 

 

At the end of the day, I think we'll have one fairly standard in-cluster romance: Will and Riley and another fairly troubled one: Wolfie and Kala (I predict she'll marry Rajan but that won't be the end of it). The rest, like Sun and Capheus, would find romance elsewhere. It's just like on the show Friends, we never got more than 2 in-group couples, it would have been an overkill (excluding the ill-advised Joey attempts on Rachel, an idea promptly dumped). That's why I hope I was wrong about the Capheus/Kala vibes. Was I the only one anyway, I'm curious to find out?

[Enero]

That's why I hope I was wrong about the Capheus/Kala vibes. Was I the only one anyway, I'm curious to find out?

I didn't get a romantic vibe with the Capheus/Kala scene. It was obvious that he was initially taken with her beauty, but I think after the initial awe from him the interaction was very friend zone almost brother and sister like. It definitely didn't have the strong romantic overtones that Kala's interactions with Wolfgang had or Will with Riley.

That said, if the show gets a S2, I'm less concerned about triangles within the cluster and more concerned with any romantic relationships forming within the cluster. As Jonas stated Sensates in the same cluster falling in love would be the most intense, pure and deep love they've ever felt. However, I can see where it could become dangerous (didn't Iceland cave woman warn Riley about this?) not just because what would happen if it didn't work out but how it could become all consuming for the pair involved and thus be destructive to the group. As cool and interesting as their connections (and as much as I want to see Kala/Wolfgang explored), I think it's probably best for all that their romantic entanglements happen outside of the group.

Other questions I have, that we'll likely never get the answers to. LOL. How was it determined that Angelica would birth these particular individuals as Sensates? What was her connection to them? Did she also share a birthdaywith them (meaning their original birth?). And can all Sensates birth a new cluster? I'm thinking no. Just like every woman or man can't or won't have a child, I'd think Sensates may be similar. And where did the Sensates get the ability to be a Sensate? Is it genetic? Wasn't Riley's mom a Sensate?

It's interesting that almost all that Sensates have one dead parent or no parents at all, with the exception of Kala. Could this have something to do with the abilities they have? Could the dead or missing parent/s have had the gene and that's why they are dead or gone?

[jhlipton]

I can see where it could become dangerous (didn't Iceland cave woman warn Riley about this?) not just because what would happen if it didn't work out but how it could become all consuming for the pair involved and thus be destructive to the group.

 

The "cave woman" (Yrsa -- http://sense8.wikia.com/wiki/Yrsa) said that having sex with another sensate as the the highest form of narcissism -- and I can see her point.  You're not just having sex with another person; you're also having sex with your thoughts and emotions in that person, and that person's thoughts and feelings about you.  It could be easy to sall into what you're experiencing, how you're partner(s) see and feel you, rather then just using that as a layer to enhance their joy.

[Enero]

The "cave woman" (Yrsa -- http://sense8.wikia.com/wiki/Yrsa) said that having sex with another sensate as the the highest form of narcissism -- and I can see her point. You're not just having sex with another person; you're also having sex with your thoughts and emotions in that person, and that person's thoughts and feelings about you. It could be easy to sall into what you're experiencing, how you're partner(s) see and feel you, rather then just using that as a layer to enhance their joy.

But couldn't the same thing also be said for "falling in love" with a fellow sensate in your cluster? You would be in essence falling in love with yourself. Once things get that complicated, with sex and love I can imagine the very thin line between the Sensates that are in love would get further blurred and become almost non-existent.

Edited July 4, 2015 by Enero

[Athena]

Jonas tells Will that Angelica believed "a sensate experiences love in its purest form." Yrsa is a bit more bitter that love in a cluster is pathological and narcissistic which makes sense given you can feel someone else's emotions, desire, and history. Yrsa also said that losing someone in your cluster is an unbearable pain that most feel they can't live with. I don't think love within a cluster is necessarily negative, but I can see it being obsessive and difficult as your emotional life would be tied with your romantic partner completely and six others. Perhaps our group have less time to worry about that now that they are being actively hunted so simple romance is not going to happen with Will and Riley or Kala/Wolfgang.

Other questions I have, that we'll likely never get the answers to. LOL. How was it determined that Angelica would birth these particular individuals as Sensates? What was her connection to them? Did she also share a birthdaywith them (meaning their original birth?). And can all Sensates birth a new cluster? I'm thinking no. Just like every woman or man can't or won't have a child, I'd think Sensates may be similar. And where did the Sensates get the ability to be a Sensate? Is it genetic? Wasn't Riley's mom a Sensate?

 

The showrunners have planned five series. They even have the finale mapped out so I can see most of these questions being answered if we get an S2 and beyond. I worry that this show seems really expensive to produce for a Netflix show. I'd be happy if there less locations because I'd like to see the protagonists together in one location, but it would remove the global nature of the show and how beautifully it's been shot.

[Boundary]

Yrsa (thanks for the name) sure had a point about narcism but so did Angelica about it being the purest form of love. I imagine the healthy form of love lies somewhere in between. Riley and Will's and Wolfie and Kala's connections stroke me as being natural, i.e. their attraction would've happened anyway, it didn't rely on the sensate connection. 

 

Other questions I have, that we'll likely never get the answers to. LOL. How was it determined that Angelica would birth these particular individuals as Sensates? What was her connection to them? Did she also share a birthdaywith them (meaning their original birth?). And can all Sensates birth a new cluster? I'm thinking no. 

 

 

Yrsa mentioned how she thinks Angelica and Jonas worked for Whispers, creating new clusters in order to hunt other sensates. This makes me think that maybe Angelica had a special talent/power for birthing clusters. She created our cluster specifically to fight Whispers but could she design their skillsets? I'm thinking not, because these are fully realised human beings (?) already living their lives. But since a cluster share a single birthday and such, Angelica simply awakened their powers. She didn't designate anything. But who knows? That's why we need more seasons.

[jhlipton]

But couldn't the same thing also be said for "falling in love" with a fellow sensate in your cluster?

Absolutely. I was still thinking about the orgy when I wrote "sex" instead of "love".

 

I'd be happy if there less locations because I'd like to see the protagonists together in one location, but it would remove the global nature of the show and how beautifully it's been shot.

 

The two similar but different views of Iceland -- snowbound and icy vs green and verdant, but both vast, remote and rugged -- were so very beautiful. And that's an area that's not been overused in TV shows and movies.

 

Angelica had a special talent/power for birthing clusters. She created our cluster specifically to fight Whispers but could she design their skillsets? I'm thinking not, because these are fully realised human beings (?) already living their lives. But since a cluster share a single birthday and such, Angelica simply awakened their powers. She didn't designate anything. But who knows? That's why we need more seasons.

 

What does it mean that "Angelica birthed the cluster"? They had different parents, so it's not an actual birth. I guess we need to know what makes a sensate a sensate and how a cluster is formed.  Right now, all we know is that all the members of as cluster are born at the exact same moment 

 

353,000 babies are born every day -- that works out to 14,700 per hour, 245 per minute or 4 per second.  I guess having 8 and only 8 on any specific second isn't all that far from the realm of probability.

[Athena]

What does it mean that "Angelica birthed the cluster"? They had different parents, so it's not an actual birth. I guess we need to know what makes a sensate a sensate and how a cluster is formed.  Right now, all we know is that all the members of as cluster are born at the exact same moment

 

As Jonas said early on, there are two births for sensates. The first is their actual birth which they all drew breath together, but the second is when the cluster is born through Angelica. Both Riley and Will did exhibit and show sensate ability as young children and visited with other sensates; however, they didn't connect with their own cluster until Angelica joined them.  Not sure how this ability is governed, how Angelica finds them, or what goes into it. There is a psychic network where you can visit but also share with your cluster.

[jhlipton]

As Jonas says early on, there are two births for sensates. The first is their actual birth which they all drew breath together, but the second is when the cluster is born through Angelica.

 

Thanks -- I forgot about that.

[Boundary]

353,000 babies are born every day -- that works out to 14,700 per hour, 245 per minute or 4 per second.  I guess having 8 and only 8 on any specific second isn't all that far from the realm of probability.

 

Is the whole thing random or designed? More than a philosophical question, this has to do with the mechanics of the whole system. Are the births simultaneously induced by the sensate gene or does a cluster randomly form out of 8 that are born at the same time? This can get pretty convoluted and I imagine the Wachowskis and JSM have not thought through all the mythology yet. And answers aren't a requirement yet and, depending on how they write, they might never be. It doesn't stop us wondering though.

[jhlipton]

Is the whole thing random or designed? More than a philosophical question, this has to do with the mechanics of the whole system. Are the births simultaneously induced by the sensate gene or does a cluster randomly form out of 8 that are born at the same time?

 

As long as they don't switch from "anyone can be a Jedi sensate" to "all Jedis sensates are hereditary", I'll be happy.  I'm leaning towards the "sensate-ism is induced somehow".  

 

But as you say, the mechanics really aren't that important.  How a cluster is created doesn't need to be explored.

[Unusual Suspect]

Jonas tells Will that Angelica believed "a sensate experiences love in its purest form." Yrsa is a bit more bitter that love in a cluster is pathological and narcissistic which makes sense given you can feel someone else's emotions, desire, and history.

 

Which is a bit that I quite liked, because they're both right. To quote another JMS character, "All love is unrequited", as in the love we feel isn't the same love that is reciprocated (or not, however the case may be), but it is within a cluster. On the other hand, it is a form of self-love, given that the cluster shares so much.

[braziliangirl]

I loved the series but I kinda wished they slowed down the couples being in love. It was too fast for me, it seemed kind of forced. I wasn't invested as much as I should've been with either couple. 

Edited July 7, 2015 by braziliangirl

[Boundary]

I thought Will and Riley connection felt natural but the depth of their feelings was a little bit too fast (maybe due to sensate abilities). Kala stroke me as being intrigued by Wolfie, a feeling exacerbated by being pushed into an arranged marriage but they are not yet "in love" like Will/Riley (Willey?), which makes sense to me.

[jhlipton]

I loved the series but I kinda wished they slowed down the couples being in love. It was too fast for me, it seemed kind of forced. I wasn't invested as much as I should've been with either couple. 

 

We only have 2 couples which are remotely in love.  Like Boundary, I don't think Kala and Wolfgang are in love -- I think they do intrigue each other, and can see how the other brings something that they lack.  I don't have a problem with Will and Riley -- they are attracted to each other physically, as well as emotionally through the sensate experience.  So neither felt forced to me.

 

As always, YMMV

[Chaos Theory]

I don't think romance triangles are going to be the problem. I think moral quandaries are. How far does Will the Cop go to protect Wolfgang the Murderer when they both know not protecting him means letting Whispers get his hands on Wolfgang and through him them all. What does it mean for the cluster if one of them is a psycopath?

Edited July 10, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[Clanstarling]

The dialog is cheesy at times but all the actors, even the bit players -- Silas, Wolfgang's cousin, Felix, even the bartender -- bring it!  That's what makes it fun to watch in spite of the glacial plot.  It's refreshing to see a show that's so character-driven.

I love the characters and their development. You are right, all of the actors are full out.

 

The plot doesn't seem glacial at all to me, but maybe it's because I find it so refreshing to have a different pace in a show. If I had to watch one episode a week, I'd probably agree. Thank you, Netflix!

 

Since JMS is involved, it's not too surprising that the rising action takes its time. Babylon Five was written more like an epic novel than television series. I remember introducing the series to family, and being astonished over and over again how some throw-away line in the early episodes became important much later in the series. Of course, he didn't take as much time introducing everyone as they've done in this show - B5 wouldn't have lasted a full season if he'd done that back thenn.

 

I think SanLynn might be right - Riley's may be the mom. I initially thought that maybe her baby was part of a cluster she'd birthed, but then remembered that this cluster's "mom" wasn't the biological mother of any of them, which was shown so beautifully in the last episode. I did get confused as to whether it was Riley being born or Riley giving birth. Given that the rest of them were being born, I guess it was her birth. But if there is a "mother" of a cluster, is there a "father" too?

 

Kala is hard to figure out. She's all heart and faith, and yet she's a scientist with a rational mind. As a scientist who makes connections through research, maybe her skill will be to bring together all their knowledge to figure things out. She and Will and Nomi would be a good team in that regard.

 

I don't know what to think about Jonas, but love the ambiguity of it.  Seems like Whispers is a Sense8 himself, given the way he took over the lobotomized guy's body.

Edited July 10, 2015 by clanstarling

[Enero]

I don't think romance triangles are going to be the problem. I think moral quandaries are. How far does Will the Cop go to protect Wolfgang the Murderer when they both know not protecting him means letting Whispers get his hands on Wolfgang and through him them all. What does it mean for the cluster if one of them is a psycopath?

If the Sensates feel every emotion and thought the others in their cluster feel then would there even be a moral quandary? If one is a psychopath wouldn't the other Sensates feel the needs of and have the same desires of that psychopath? I guess the quandary might not be how far one would go to protect another that's crazy, but how does the sane sensate keep from becoming consumed by the psychopath? Is it possible for one sensate in a cluster to be stronger than the others and as a result can control their thoughts and emotions?

Edited July 10, 2015 by Enero

[jhlipton]

I did get confused as to whether it was Riley being born or Riley giving birth. Given that the rest of them were being born, I guess it was her birth.

 

I believe we saw both for Riley.  I think we saw her birth along with the rest of the Sensates, and we saw her giving birth after the accident and before she climbed back to the road.  (I loved both of the views from where she gave birth: first the snow-covered one; then the grass-covered one.)

[NorthstarATL]

It was slow getting into, but I found the show a binge-worthy treat! The cast was great, and I found that I, for the most part, enjoyed the individual stories, as well as the supporting casts for each Sensate. Would I watch an individual show featuring any of the eight as a solo entity? Probably not, though Carlito/Hernando/Daniela is a possibility. I loved the shared experiences, such as the concert and the karaoke (maybe they resonated because they both involved music?), but had to recall that MJS is a comic book writer, and therefore the "shared" physical abilities one had to suspend disbelief. Unless I am mistaken, scenes where one Sensate "took over" for another whose skills were lacking was actually the unskilled Sensate being imbued with the skilled Sensate's abilities, or at least that was implied by both the actors and the reactive observers, right? Yet, skills that require muscle memory are really ony applicable to the body one has as that is the one which has been trained. If Sun, for example, has spent years training in martial arts, her skillset would be useless, or at least awkward in the body of Capheus, whose arms and legs would feel different and end at different points than Sun's does, even disregarding the level of physical fitness (if a martial artist possessed me, a kick would likely tear a hamstring before landing upon an opponent). Even something as simple as typing isn't transferrable, because the muscle memory is related as much to the fingers as it is to the keys. Getting past all that, though, the characters and the actors sold the stories to me, and I hope that there is more.

[jhlipton]

Unless I am mistaken, scenes where one Sensate "took over" for another whose skills were lacking was actually the unskilled Sensate being imbued with the skilled Sensate's abilities

 

I don't know -- but it didn't bother me.  I can see it more as one Sense8 imbuing the other with the training (of the second's body) they needed at that moment.  It's the same kind of thing that let's a character put on a helmet and have the skills and training needed immediately.

[NorthstarATL]

Oh, I get that. That's why I mentioned knowing JMS' comic book work. I had to keep that in mind when considering the logistics of what was being done onscreen. In any case the characters themselves carried the story well enough for me to get past it all. But it WAS a key frustration with recommending the series and/or fully investing.

[jhlipton]

Obviously a YMMV situation!

[jhlipton]

Interesting discussion on trans representation: http://thegeekiary.com/roundtable-trans-representation-in-sense-8/25373

[patchwork]

My take on the narcissism/truest form of love is that both are right, nothing is hidden in a cluster you are loved and accepted without reservation and romantic love only enhances that. But there's a dark flip side to people having your back no matter what- an actor with no real experience with violence will think that blowing up an occupied car is the coolest thing ever, a business woman will kill men she's never met and a cop will use a criminal's disregard for life to do the things he can't. 

 

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying it would be better if they didn't do those things- Capheus would be dead if Sun hadn't done that as would Riley and Will if Wolfgang didn't take the wheel- but they step in to do these things without needing an explanation, all that matters is one of their other selves needs help. I think adding romantic emotion to that has the potential to make the couple lose sight of everything but each other. 

[JillPole]

I think both interpretations of romance are right, too, and I think it's wholly dependent on the two individuals involved and how they react to the bond. And that's what I like about this! They don't necessarily stop being individuals. As long as you hold onto your individuality, I don't think it would be narcissistic and dangerous. For example, even if Wolfgang opens up to the bond a bit more, I don't see him ever losing himself. And he and Kala are so wildly different that I don't see how what Yrsa said could be true for them. However, if two people who were more naturally similar fall in love, I do see how what she's saying could be true and the two people could lose themselves.

 

I'm not sure the bond means people will have your back no matter what. It could go either way at this point, and I can't wait to see what the writers do with this discussion of morality. In this season, no one was hurt who wasn't established as the most cartoonishly evil had-it-coming-to-them moustache twirlers. Lito's delight at Wolfgang blowing people away could be explained by the bond giving him a bit of Wolfgang's coldness, but it could also be explained by the fact that he picked up how utterly awful Steiner & Co were, the kind of villains that even nice, normal people sometimes cheer at seeing killed. Will's help was similar. He might not condone what Wolfgang was doing, and might have wanted to have words with him later, but in the moment, he might have picked up that Wolfgang is not an amoral bastard, but these people are. Therefore saving his life and allowing him to massacre them is preferable to letting worse guys win and losing one of the cluster. But in a more complicated moral scenario, if Wolfgang had been doing something that was totally not okay, I could see Will's moral compass deciding that letting Wolfgang suffer his own consequences is the right thing to do, no matter how painful losing a member of the cluster would be.

Edited August 6, 2015 by JillPole

[ahisma]

But in a more complicated moral scenario, if Wolfgang had been doing something that was totally not okay, I could see Will's moral compass deciding that letting Wolfgang suffer his own consequences is the right thing to do, no matter how painful losing a member of the cluster would be.

Right. I don't think that Will would have helped Wolfgang open the safe just to steal diamonds—it wasn't a life-threatening situation, just something Wolfgang wanted to do for personal satisfaction. The interesting question will be, will Wolfgang do that sort of thing again, now that he has seven essentially law-abiding people who could drop in on him at any time?

[missysays]

I wanted to ask a question of everyone. I've been hearing online from different reviewers etc that they think that Angelica's death was what spawned the cluster that we followed in season 1. I actually don't think that's the case. I think she spawned them before her death and she killed herself because she didn't want Whispers to see them through her. I think she must have spawned other clusters before the one we saw in the first episode and maybe Whispers used her to get to them and that's what she's trying to prevent this time around.

 

What do you guys think?

 

And I'm also wondering can any sensate give birth to a new cluster or can only certain sensates do it? If that's the case I'm thinking that Riley is the sensate most likely to give birth to other sensates.

 

Don't know if others have talked about this already. I haven't had a chance to go through all the threads.

 

Very happy about the green light for the 2nd season. I hope we'll find out more info about Whispers and BPO in the next season.

Edited August 9, 2015 by missysays

[Boundary]

Right. I don't think that Will would have helped Wolfgang open the safe just to steal diamonds—it wasn't a life-threatening situation, just something Wolfgang wanted to do for personal satisfaction. The interesting question will be, will Wolfgang do that sort of thing again, now that he has seven essentially law-abiding people who could drop in on him at any time?

 

Interesting question to ponder. Let's take one aspect of this: Kala. Despite the fact that she could drop in on him, it didn't necessarily stop "relationship drama," the familiar push and pull. So therefore I don't think Wolfie will foreswear his past but he'll definitely get motivation to do better, morally speaking. Instead of stealing diamonds for the sake of it, he'll have Mr Whispers' gang and other sensates' troubles to keep his own problems in perspective. But Will's do gooder background should provide plenty of fodder for lower order good ol' fashioned sibling clashing. However, at the end of the day they've got each other's backs.

[Athena]

I wanted to ask a question of everyone. I've been hearing online from different reviewers etc that they think that Angelica's death was what spawned the cluster that we followed in season 1. I actually don't think that's the case. I think she spawned them before her death and she killed herself because she didn't want Whispers to see them through her. I think she must have spawned other clusters before the one we saw in the first episode and maybe Whispers used her to get to them and that's what she's trying to prevent this time around.

 

What do you guys think?

 

And I'm also wondering can any sensate give birth to a new cluster or can only certain sensates do it? If that's the case I'm thinking that Riley is the sensate most likely to give birth to other sensates.

 

The Icelandic sensate Yrsa who rescued and guided Riley told her that Jonas and Angelica can't be trusted because they would birth other sensates to track them. Whispers got to Angelica but he didn't get to Jonas until Angelica died. She protected those in her cluster or he didn't care because she was working for him. Jonas and her finally realized how wrong Whispers was and birthed a new cluster that would have a head start and not be victim to Whispers.

 

We've speculated on that here. I think Riley is the most likely given her own themes of being a mother, having lost a family, and being one of the most spiritual about the sensate experiences. She'll probably be the one who can birth a new cluster.

[missysays]

Moving this comment to the speculation thread.

Edited August 10, 2015 by missysays

[Holmbo]

I just finished the series last night and by the end I was really captivated. I think my problem at the start of the series was that I expected all the 8 separate plots to converge with each other and be about the organization that haunted them. Not until the very last episodes did I fully realize most of them were just their very own plots.

It's funny because I know several people who had this problem with Cloud Atlas. That they thought all the plots would somehow intersect when in fact they were just different stories with some connection to them. I expect all of the sensates stories to be somewhat connected next season though.

I agree that the science should not be pondered on for too long. When Jonas had his science talks I just rolled my eyes. Don't explain it. Don't do a Lucy.

Also his moral preaching about how humans kill easily as oppose to animals and sensates? That made little sense.

[Helena Dax]

 

Also his moral preaching about how humans kill easily as oppose to animals and sensates? That made little sense.

 

I didn't understand it at the beginning, because it's obvious that some sensates don't  have any problem killing people. But on second watch, I realized  that Jonas said that all human beings used to be like that in the distant past and I can see why that would make killing a bit difficult. Growing up in a cluster, in a world where everybody is in a cluster, must do wonders for your empathy. But that changed when our kind of  human beings appeared. We couldn't feel anyone but ourselves; in some way, I think to sensates, we were like  actual psychopaths. And killing must be easier to us, the same way  that killing is easier to psychopaths.

 

Wolfgang and Sun are able to kill without thinking too much about it because they're full of rage, but can you imagine  their childhoods with the cluster? Do  you think that amount of rage would be still there?

[Holmbo]

I don't really see any evidence that being part of a cluster makes the characters more empathic to other humans. If anything it seems to enhance their capacity for violence since they can always have the least compassionate person stepping in for them. And overall their seems to be little protest to solving each of the sensates conflicts with violence. Even in Kala's story the help she gets is to be able to push one of the hateful religious men to scare him away. Maybe this will be addressed in season two as each of the characters become more involved in each others life. Maybe Capheus will refuse help from Sun in some future conflict and instead ask for assistance from someone with a less violent skill. Maybe the other sensates will protest Wolfgang's actions causing him to reflect on the viscous circles violence creates. But we haven't seen that yet IMO.

[myril]

I think Jonas was idealizing in his speech. You might hesitate to kill those you're connected with, find it harder eventually to kill anyone if you gone through the experience of pain and loss through other before, but I wouldn't want to get in the way of a cluster when all have been triggered at the same time to feel rage. Instead of an orgy of love we might get an orgy of hate.

 

It might be a good thing, that the sensates aren't connected in a cluster way from birth on. It's hard enough to sort out feelings and identity on your own, think it's hard enough to handle to be connected and confronted with memories, thoughts, feelings, impressions even when you've sorted yourself out and have developed a sense of self. Picture them going together through puberty. For a few it might work well, for a few eventually turn things better, but guess for many that would be too much of a mess to take.

Edited August 21, 2015 by myril

[Helena Dax]

 

I don't really see any evidence that being part of a cluster makes the characters more empathic to other humans.

 

I don't think that works now, because  the cluster is living in a non-cluster world, and Wolfgang and  the others were raised by not-sensates. But in  that past Jonas talked about, everyone was part of a cluster. Even if sensate kids weren't activated until puberty, their parents were people who were living with that connection. What kind of prejudices are you going to teach your child if you're now man and woman, pansexual, from all races? Are you going to teach him/her to hate the people from that tribe in the mountains, when maybe you're bonded to one of them? I don't think Wolfgang's dad could have raised his son the way he did if he had been part of a cluster. 

 

Of course, there would be still some violence going on. Maybe you're the one who killed the mammouth and Krag, that asshole, is telling all the girls in your tribe that he did it, so you have to crack his skull a bit. Maybe you kicked someone by accident because you were  helping someone from  your cluster in a drunk fight and the person  you kicked wants to punch your face. But that kind of violence is very different from the violence that comes from a life of abuse and neglect, in case of Wolfgang and Sun, or especially, the violence that comes from being taught that the others are less human than you  (wars, racism, KKK, nazis, ISIS, Crusades, sexism etc).

Edited August 21, 2015 by Helena Dax

[myril]

Considering numbers and statistics, if the cluster always had been what they are are now, sensates born in the same minute, I do wonder, how big clusters were in the past, or usually are. Estimates are that around AD world population was about 300 million, at beginning of 19th century 1 billion and now we're at about 7 billion. Something makes me think that around AD sensates already were more of a minority. Of course that is assuming that the fictional universe of Sense8 shares most of our history, just that there had been sensates. What I got from what Jonas said was that sensate maybe always existed, so are no recent mutation, maybe the beginning or maybe not. There is a chance that senates and non-sensates always coexisted, and even that sensates could have been always a minority, as well they might have been the majority and could still even be, just that most never learned about it. Non-sensates and sensates have more or less coexisted over thousands of years by now. Jonas is making assumptions, but he doesn't know. We know more or less who he means with "us" (sensates) - but who is them? Those capable of feeling nothing? But it's not like humans even if not sensate connected feel nothing, or is everyone with just a touch of empathy a potential sensate or is there something like half-sensates? And how much does some like Whispers feel, he can connect though, what does that make him?

 

Another question: How diverse are clusters? Isn't it possible that clusters exist with a lot less diversity than we have here? What decides that?

[possibilities]

I thought Lito gave an answer to the narcissism vs altruism issue in "perfect love" during that interview after the orgy. I can't remember the exact quote, but he talked about being both selfish and unselfish at the same time.

 

I must have misunderstood what Jonas was saying about sensates in the past. I thought he was implying that all humans were connected as a cluster (i.e. not separate clusters, but all humans were connected sensates with each other), and that this is why there was less killing. And then, as the connection died off, it became easier to form discrete enemies and allegiances, or to just act as a lone being with over-riding self-interest.

Edited August 28, 2015 by possibilities

[myril]

I thought Lito gave an answer to the narcissism vs altruism issue in "perfect love" during that interview after the orgy. I can't remember the exact quote, but he talked about being both selfish and unselfish at the same time.

 

I must have misunderstood what Jonas was saying about sensates in the past. I thought he was implying that all humans were connected as a cluster (i.e. not separate clusters, but all humans were connected sensates with each other), and that this is why there was less killing. And then, as the connection died off, it became easier to form discrete enemies and allegiances, or to just act as a lone being with over-riding self-interest.

 

It's somewhat ambiguous what Jonas is telling. He lets it open if the sensates were the first or if non-senate or if both existed from the beginning, he doesn't know, likely no one knows or could tell. Agree with what he says, that it's not that important, who was first, it's important that they (sensates) will be still there in the future. Jonas speculates, assumes, draws his conclusions, but there are other possible views. Whatever was in the past, for the present for sure we can tell, sensates kill, and seems they can do that even without some remorse for those they kill. Being connected the way they are makes the cluster itself a form of discrete allegiance, after all they are able to know about each other and communicate with each other in ways that can stay hidden from many others (if they don't talk to air in all public). Keeping no secrets - that would be only possible if there were only one big cluster including every single human being. Maybe that was in the past, I have my doubts, but sure it's not anymore.

Something different. A question: Did you notice that the stories are mostly told from the point of view of the 8 main characters?

[ToxicUnicorn]

I recently watched the entire series.  What a perfect show for a binge.

 

From near the top of the thread;

I'm less concerned about triangles within the cluster and more concerned with any romantic relationships forming within the cluster.

 

For me, the aspect I miss the most is the reaction of the non-sensate in the couple.  I gather Neets is pretty well loved, but she is completely unrealistic to me.  I get that she is this idealized, accepting, I love you for you, partner for Nomi, and I have no problem with that.  However, if I found out that the love of my life started frequent, deep, meaningful conversations and feelings for other people I couldn't even see, I would be all: that's cool, but how about *me* over here!  Don't forget about *me*!  To have her be unquestioningly accepting and gung-ho strikes me as pretty weird.

 

In that sense, Orphan Black did the realization/reaction much better, through Felix.

 

I hope Jonas is completely unreliable.  I would really like for the sense8s to learn how to control and keep some parts of their thoughts and feelings shielded from the rest.  For one thing, I think it would make it far more interesting than seeing a completely shared mind.  For another, it's the only way out I see for defeating Whispers/BPO.

 

This post makes me sound more critical than I am.  I love the characters and am blown away by the casting, and I love, love, love the way it's filmed.  Everything but those birthing scenes.  I didn't need those below-the-sheet shots.