One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[txhorns79]

I would have thought the pair of them would have dealt with any Christopher-related  angst during Lorelai's romance and then engagement to Max.

 

If Lorelai didn't even discuss with Max what his role would be vis a vis Rory until a few days before the wedding, it doesn't seem like she'd be proactive with Rory regarding Chris. 

 

She wondered if she pushed it on Rory after Rory had her meltdown when she was late for her test because it was what she wanted.  Rory tells her that its not true that she really does want to go to Harvard.

 

That's true, but I did wonder if Rory was just telling her mother what she wanted to hear. 

Edited March 22, 2016 by txhorns79

[junienmomo]

Lorelai brought it up in the episode where Rory got hit by a deer. She wondered if she pushed it

on Rory after Rory had her meltdown when she was late for her test because it was what she wanted.

Rory tells her that its not true that she really does want to go to Harvard. Rory also mentions later

to the daughter of the Harvard alumi who didn't go to Harvard, that her mother would be happy

with what ever Rory did.

Lorelai confessed (to Max, I think), that she had pushed Harvard since Rory was a toddler. Rory followed the party line until she matured enough to want to make her own decision.

[readster]

 

Or perhaps there was some idea of having Christopher about on the side. Kind of like his own inchoate plan of having both Lorelai and Sherry in his life in early Season 3 :)

I always wonder what would have happened with Christopher if "I'm with Her" would have had a 2nd season on ABC. Once the show was over and Sutcliff was free, AS-P started working on how to bring Chris back in to throw the wrench in Luke and Lorelai's relationship. You know she would have tried to find another way, I could have seen Max being brought back, as there was Lorelai and him kissing in the classroom in season 2 before Christopher showed back up. I don't know, I find that the worst GG storylines and plots were because former actors on the show all of a sudden were free. They did it with Marty, Nicole, Christopher and Dean every time the actors other work crashed and burn or they were free for a month. Unlike said characters meeting their natural course such as Max, Jason, Trix and Richard's butler. 

[txhorns79]

You know she would have tried to find another way, I could have seen Max being brought back, as there was Lorelai and him kissing in the classroom in season 2 before Christopher showed back up.

 

I thought Max returned in Season 3? 

[readster]

Oh wait, your right, sorry. But you see my point.

[txhorns79]

But you see my point.

 

I do.  Though it might have been difficult to bring Trix back anyways, being dead and all!  Not that a ghost would ever have been too much for Stars Hollow. 

[junienmomo]

I do.  Though it might have been difficult to bring Trix back anyways, being dead and all!  Not that a ghost would ever have been too much for Stars Hollow. 

You mean bring Trix back from the dead for a second time. She was already dead in season 1. LOL

And then there was finally a use for what's her name, first as Sasha then as Anna. First worst, stealing Jess away for a doomed pilot (how appealing could you make the loser hot dog king and the eternal bad boy anyway?). Second, the plot line that alienated countless L/L shippers, the OTP of the series.

Oh, yeah, it was Sherilyn Fenn.

[chessiegal]

Well, she did bring Trix (Marion Ross) back as cousin Marilyn.

[readster]

 

And then there was finally a use for what's her name, first as Sasha then as Anna. First worst, stealing Jess away for a doomed pilot (how appealing could you make the loser hot dog king and the eternal bad boy anyway?). Second, the plot line that alienated countless L/L shippers, the OTP of the series.

That's a big UO for me was I actually wanted to see more of the pilot, but I feel that Jess spin-off was all over the place. Even with Jess's dad showing up out of nowhere. Living with a woman who had a daughter from a previous marriage that loved to hide up and read books. Then you had Mike Moronna from the Adventures of Pete and Pete who apparently not only worked at the Hot Dog King, but apparently was a partner too (according to AS-P notes). Plus, filming on Venice Beach, I have to say that it had me interested, but at the same time. I think the show would have lasted one season and end with Jess moving on, healing what happened with his dad and vice versa but going their separate ways in life. Yet, we know that AS-P much like Rob Thomas of Veronica Mars loved reusing actors for is show. Either making them completely different characters, putting wigs on them or making the audience go: "No, they don't look or sound like someone who was in a few episodes as a different character." 

   

[shron17]

While watching season 2, I was confused by Lorelei never bringing up visitation or child support with Christopher even after he got a job in season 2, and instead deciding to throw herself at him. If that was me, and I'm guessing most other single moms, the respond would've been different. It would've been, "great! Now let's talk about you shouldering some of this responsibility for our daughter."

I agree somewhat but the two biggest factors why I think why that didn't happen were Rory's age and Christopher's past behavior.  By the time kids are teenagers they usually plan their own schedules and have much more input on the visitation schedule.  And the fact that the status quo most of Rory's life was her dad calling maybe once a week and seeing him infrequently she (and Lorelai) didn't expect/plan for more than that.  If Chris wanted to change his behavior, that's great, but he should have initiated talking to Lorelai and Rory about it (before an unexpected invitation) and probably introduced them both to Sherri and shown them where he lives.  As for Lorelai, being attracted to each other was their status quo, and last time she saw Chris he said she was his one true soul-mate.  Even though she turned down his proposal the reason she gave was that they don't know each other as adults, which could easily be changed if she and Chris spent more time together.  Don't you think it was kind of odd that Chris didn't mention Sherri at all until the end of their visit, and also that he hadn't thought to tell his daughter he'd moved back to the East coast?

 

IMO the failed Lorelei/Chris reunion shouldn't have killed the relationship between Rory and Chris. 

I don't think that's what hurt their relationship, I think it's that Christopher made promises and then didn't follow through, on top of the way he'd so often disappointed her in the past.  I also think Rory would have handled it better if he'd told her himself and reassured her that, as far as he was concerned, it wouldn't change their relationship.  Instead he focused on Lorelai.

 

CHRISTOPHER: And what do you think about all this?

RORY: I don’t know. What exactly are your intentions?

CHRISTOPHER: Excuse me?

RORY: Your intentions – are they honorable?

CHRISTOPHER: Completely honorable.

RORY: Yeah? Because we have been waiting for this for a really long time and we take disappointment extremely hard. I mean it, property damage is often involved.

CHRISTOPHER: Well, I better follow through on this, huh?

RORY: I think that’s an excellent idea.

 

 

Lorelai confessed (to Max, I think), that she had pushed Harvard since Rory was a toddler. Rory followed the party line until she matured enough to want to make her own decision.

Lorelai did tell Max in the Deer-Hunter that she really wanted Rory to go to Harvard but I don't think that meant she pushed her.  In addition to the scene already referred to, Rory told Paris in RBP that she'd only ever wanted to go to Harvard.  Also you may be forgetting that in A Tale of Poes and Fires they made a pro/con list for all the colleges where she'd been accepted and it was Lorelai who said that despite the Harvard wall she only wanted Rory to go to the place that was right for her.

Edited March 22, 2016 by shron17

[junienmomo]

OK, I couldn't let the Harvard thing go. Here's the transcript from The Deer Hunters. Lorelai decided on Harvard when Rory was still crawling. It was good that Lorelai could accept/aid the change to other schools later.

To Lorelai's discredit, she tells an embarrassing story. So much for separation of (potential) boyfriend from mother/daughter relationship.

 

LORELAI: Oh yeah. I mean it’s an adjustment of course, but she’s always wanted to go to Harvard and this is how she’ll get there.
MAX: Harvard?
LORELAI: Yeah. Ever since she could crawl, I’ve really wanted her to go there.
MAX: It’s a great school.
LORELAI: I actually bought her a Harvard sweatshirt when she was 4, which of course was way too big for her, so she used it as a blanket for a while and then as a make shift diaper on this really ill-fated shopping trip and now I’ve told you a story that would so mortify her, she’ll kill me when she finds out you know.
MAX: Don’t tell her then. It’ll be our secret.

[txhorns79]

Also you may be forgetting that in A Tale of Poes and Fires they made a pro/con list for all the colleges where she'd been accepted and it was Lorelai who said that despite the Harvard wall she only wanted Rory to go to the place that was right for her.

 

Didn't Lorelai also throw a huge fit when she found out that Rory had applied to Yale?  I can believe that Rory eventually accepted Lorelai's goal of Harvard as her own, and she'd be naturally defensive of her mother, in saying that whatever her mother may have done, Harvard is really Rory's choice.  My only thing is that I would find it hard to believe that Rory's interest in Yale's biggest rival isn't more about Lorelai than it is about Rory.     

[shron17]

My only thing is that I would find it hard to believe that Rory's interest in Yale's biggest rival isn't more about Lorelai than it is about Rory.

I can agree with that, it was definitely about Lorelai's relationship with her parents.  Yet she still wanted Rory to make the choice best for her.

 

OK, I couldn't let the Harvard thing go. Here's the transcript from The Deer Hunters. Lorelai decided on Harvard when Rory was still crawling.

Yes, I just don't  see that as "pushing."  By the time we met Rory she had internalized it as her own goal.  If she'd changed her mind at some point and Lorelai kept pointing her back at Harvard, then yes.  Or if Lorelai had encouraged her to go Harvard despite the pro/con lists.

Edited March 22, 2016 by shron17

[dirtypop90]

I didn't think it was odd that Chris didn't mention Sherri. It seemed they didn't speak about their romantic partners. She didn't say anything to him about max until she was engaged. I guessed it was weird for them to talk about given their history. Not to mention, I don't think Chris expected lorelai to come on to him after her firm rejection in season 1. But Chris certainly should've told them when he moved to Boston.

I also didn't see Chris focusing on lorelai when they shut him out after season 2. He was calling both of them and said something to lorelai about her keeping Rory away, and I don't think he was right about that, just mentioning the scene as evidence he was trying to reach them both. After that, he was off the canvas until Sherri gave birth.

[shron17]

It seemed they didn't speak about their romantic partners.

But Sherri was more than just a romantic partner.  Christopher moved across the country, got a job and bought a Volvo to move in with Sherri, yet he told Lorelai about all of his changes without once mentioning the reason he made them.  Seems a little sneaky to me, like maybe he wanted Lorelai to think he'd done it for her instead of another woman. And to me, telling someone you can't marry them because you don't know each other as adults isn't final because you can certainly get to know someone again as an adult especially if the person who lives far away moves closer. 

 

I also didn't see Chris focusing on lorelai when they shut him out after season 2.

 

When Chris went to Friday Night Dinner he said he wasn't leaving until he talked to Lorelai, not Rory.  In fact he didn't mention Rory at all until he complained that Lorelai was keeping her away.  Maybe if he'd started with saying he just wanted to see Rory, and when he saw Rory tell her how sorry he was for not keeping his promise instead of asking her to understand he would have gotten a little farther.  Screaming at Lorelai that he didn't want things to turn out the way they did certainly didn't help.  Lorelai even went outside before he left to reassure him that Rory just needed some time.

[andromeda331]

Maybe if he'd started with saying he just wanted to see Rory, and when he saw Rory tell her how sorry he was for not keeping his promise instead of asking her to understand he would have gotten a little farther

That would have been nice if he started out just wanting to see Rory and trying to talk to her. Instead of

watching him chase around Lorelai. That's got to suck for Rory. He promised her he was going to stay

then leaves to go back to Sherry, he doesn't even bother to stick around to tell Rory. What he had to

drive back to Boston that very minute? He couldn't wait an hour or two to tell his daughter and try

and explain things? Then when he does show up its to talk to her mother. Not her.

[dirtypop90]

But Sherri was more than just a romantic partner. Christopher moved across the country, got a job and bought a Volvo to move in with Sherri, yet he told Lorelai about all of his changes without once mentioning the reason he made them. Seems a little sneaky to me, like maybe he wanted Lorelai to think he'd done it for her instead of another woman. And to me, telling someone you can't marry them because you don't know each other as adults isn't final because you can certainly get to know someone again as an adult especially if the person who lives far away moves closer.

When Chris went to Friday Night Dinner he said he wasn't leaving until he talked to Lorelai, not Rory. .

I don't think he was being sneaky because I don't think he showed any interest in lorelai in PLG. If he wanted her to think he made changes for her, surely he would've called and told her about those changes, instead of waiting to tell her the next time they spoke. I think Chris saw lorelai's rejection of him as final in season 1 and didn't expect to get another chance. Lorelai said more than they don't know each. she also said he was immature and irresponsible (credit card got decline etc). im not saying lorelai was wrong in her assessment of Chris, just saying her words would surely make a man think he didn't have a chance and needed to move on. Lorelai also got engaged to max after rejecting Chris, which would also indicate that she didn't see her and Chris as a possibility. I also don't think he and Sherri were anymore serious than her Max. They weren't engaged at that time.

Re Chris wanting to speak to lorelai at FND, well she is the mom. I don't think it is crazy for him to think he needed to get through lorelai in order to get Rory to speak with him, esp given the close relationship they had and that Chris and Rory never really shared a relationship separate from lorelai. Rory is a momma's girl. He wasn't going to get to Rory without getting to lorelai first. And Rory mentioned before that scene that he had been calling her as well.

Edited March 23, 2016 by dirtypop90

[dustylil]

Re Chris wanting to speak to lorelai at FND, well she is the mom. I don't think it is crazy for him to think he needed to get through lorelai in order to get Rory to speak with him, esp given the close relationship they had and that Chris and Rory never really shared a relationship separate from lorelai

 

But Christopher and Rory had been speaking on the telephone on a weekly basis for some months by the end of the second season, a connection they had never really had before. So they did have a bond separate from Lorelai.

[AllyB]

I agree somewhat but the two biggest factors why I think why that didn't happen were Rory's age and Christopher's past behavior.  By the time kids are teenagers they usually plan their own schedules and have much more input on the visitation schedule.

I agree. I have a relative now who is in the tough position of his 11 year old not wanting to travel to see him every other weekend. The child has plans at the weekend, birthday parties, sports events, etc and doesn't want to spend every second weekend in another city. That's a young child who lived with both parents until a few years ago and has spent every other weekend with dad since the divorce. And who's siblings still spend every other weekend with him. My relative is really upset by it but is having to learn that the child is reaching an age where friends and social engagements are starting to become very important and traveling to another city so often is also disruptive to his child's well being.

 

There is no way a 17 year old with a boyfriend, a heavy study and extra curricular schedule and her Friday nights given over for dinner with her grandparents would have any intention of spending every second weekend with the father who has never been a consistent part of her life. It would be emotionally awkward to suddenly try and force a traditional father/daughter relationship at this point. Rory was less than a year off legal adulthood. It would have most likely bred resentment as Rory would be stretched too thin for an arrangement that would be almost exclusively for other people's benefit. It was best that she and Chris at that point developed the best parent/adult child relationship that they possibly could. One where she is not obliged to uproot her life for half of her free time (and I use free time loosely as Rory worked toward Harvard a lot at weekends).

Edited March 23, 2016 by AllyB

[txhorns79]

My relative is really upset by it but is having to learn that the child is reaching an age where friends and social engagements are starting to become very important and traveling to another city so often is also disruptive to his child's well being.

 

I'm sorry to hear about your situation.  I'm not sure how much leeway I would give an 11 year old to determine their situation, but I would agree that an older teenager has more leeway in planning their schedule. 

 

 

There is no way a 17 year old with a boyfriend, a heavy study and extra curricular schedule and her Friday nights given over for dinner with her grandparents would have any intention of spending every second weekend with the father who has never been a consistent part of her life.

 

Honestly, I think Rory would be okay with some kind of arrangement like that with Chris.  It may not be feasible given her schedule, but I think she would try to make something work, if only to establish a real bond with her father, rather than relying on some de minimis action like a weekly phone call. 

[AllyB]

I'm sorry to hear about your situation.  I'm not sure how much leeway I would give an 11 year old to determine their situation, but I would agree that an older teenager has more leeway in planning their schedule. 

There are no easy answers. At 11 children can lose friendships when they aren't able to be with their friends for half their weekends, or if they miss parties. They can't join sports clubs as they'll miss half the games. They can find themselves isolated at school because they weren't around for some event that's more important than anything else in the world when you're a kid.  Either way someone will lose out and the most important person in terms of well being is the child, not the parent.

 

Honestly, I think Rory would be okay with some kind of arrangement like that with Chris.  It may not be feasible given her schedule, but I think she would try to make something work, if only to establish a real bond with her father, rather than relying on some de minimis action like a weekly phone call.

Rory already didn't want to spend part of her Christmas holiday with Christopher in the Bainbridge episode. (Though Lorelai's freakout could well have influenced that.) She would have been open to spending more time with Christopher if he lived near Star's Hollow/Hartford and she could still live her regular life around him. But not at the expense of her own life as she'd have to spend every second weekend in a different state.

[txhorns79]

She would have been open to spending more time with Christopher if he lived near Star's Hollow/Hartford and she could still live her regular life around him. But not at the expense of her own life as she'd have to spend every second weekend in a different state.

 

I agree.  That's why I said that I thought Rory would be open to some kind of arrangement, without specifying what type she may agree with. 

 

 

There are no easy answers. At 11 children can lose friendships when they aren't able to be with their friends for half their weekends, or if they miss parties. They can't join sports clubs as they'll miss half the games. They can find themselves isolated at school because they weren't around for some event that's more important than anything else in the world when you're a kid.  Either way someone will lose out and the most important person in terms of well being is the child, not the parent.

 

I agree, but I also believe that's exactly the reason you don't let an 11 year old dictate the schedule.  There is almost always some event where they will just die if they don't get to attend, and there's only so much a parent can do to accommodate them.             

[shron17]

I think Chris saw lorelai's rejection of him as final in season 1 and didn't expect to get another chance. Lorelai said more than they don't know each. she also said he was immature and irresponsible (credit card got decline etc). im not saying lorelai was wrong in her assessment of Chris, just saying her words would surely make a man think he didn't have a chance and needed to move on.

Okay, I can agree that Chris saw her rejection as final, but I still think it was pretty stupid of him and indicated that he didn't at all understand the kind of partner adult Lorelai needed in her life.  Even after she tried to explain what family meant to her (commitment, responsibility, hard work and coming home at the same time to the same place every day) he still didn't get it.  Lorelai also told him he was liar but not a loser (so all is not lost?) and asked him not to stay away.  And maybe it's just me, but if I told someone they were the one for me I would listen to what they said they needed and at least make an effort to do that before moving on with someone else.  And while it's true Lorelai got engaged to Max, it was probably less than a week between the time Chris found out she was engaged and discovered she'd ended it.  

 

I also don't think he and Sherri were anymore serious than her Max. They weren't engaged at that time.

While I agree Lorelai should have told Christopher as soon as she got engaged I think moving in with someone, especially when you change your entire life to move across the country, is just as serious as being engaged in terms of co-parenting.

 

I don't think it is crazy for him to think he needed to get through lorelai in order to get Rory to speak with him, esp given the close relationship they had and that Chris and Rory never really shared a relationship separate from lorelai.

When he crashed Friday night dinner he didn't even ask to speak to Rory, so I doubt he was only going to Lorelai so he could talk to her.  In fact, Chris didn't bring Rory up at all until he accused Lorelai of keeping her away from him.  It's kind of funny to assume your 17-year-old daughter, who's perfectly capable of using the phone, didn't call back because of her mom but it does fit his character.  Gee Chris, maybe she's mad because of something you did or said.  But it truly never was Christopher's fault.  

 

Either way someone will lose out and the most important person in terms of well being is the child, not the parent.

This to me sums up the whole point of parenting, and why I never saw Christopher as a good parent.  He never understood the concept of putting his child's well being first, even with Gigi.  I  hated the taking 4-year-old Gigi to Paris to visit her mother story line.  A child that age doesn't have the concept of time and space to understand they're going to be far far away from everything and everyone they know and love.  Any parent who was truly looking out for his child's well being would have insisted Sherri come there first to at least get reacquainted with Gigi before even considering taking her to a foreign country for a month or two.  Chris was only thinking about how hard his life was and where he and Lorelai could vacation with Gigi away.  On the other hand, despite being generally clueless in some respects, I thought Luke did his best to do what was right for April at least from the time he contacted Anna.

Edited March 23, 2016 by shron17

[solotrek]

I  hated the taking 4-year-old Gigi to Paris to visit her mother story line.  A child that age doesn't have the concept of time and space to understand they're going to be far far away from everything and everyone they know and love.  Any parent who was truly looking out for his child's well being would have insisted Sherri come there first to at least get reacquainted with Gigi before even considering taking her to a foreign country for a month or two.

 

Don't forget he was going to get the nanny to take her until Lorelai intervened.

 

Edited March 23, 2016 by solotrek

[AllyB]

Chris would have been an excellent 'unreliable but great fun' uncle but he was an awful father.

 

In fact apart from all the sex, he and Lorelai would have made a great brother and sister too.

[readster]

Chris would have been an excellent 'unreliable but great fun' uncle but he was an awful father.

 

In fact apart from all the sex, he and Lorelai would have made a great brother and sister too.

Right and I was so sick they couldn't point that out by everyone. Because he was horrible as a father, but hey he comes from a good standing family of the rich and he is great at sex and "looks great". So, all is forgiven. I also like how Gilmore Girls like most shows from the early to mid 2000s had to have characters want or go to France for everything. They did it on: "Friends, Gilmore Girls, Daweson's Creek, Two and  Half Men, ect). Because then, France was the hoping place to go at, now post 2008 and terrorist attacks, no one ever mentions going to Europe anymore. Now the new hot spot on TV shows is to go to California in some way. Back to topic, yeah, AS-P had such a thing for the character of Chris and David Suttcliff, Christopher was just forced on us to be: "a hot thing" but sucked as a person. 

[EternallyCharmed]

I had seen some Gilmore Girls episodes here and there but just finished watching the whole series for the first time! I then spent hours reading this thread because you're all so witty and analytical and also because I have no life. So here are my unpopular opinions---

 

I am among the minority who hates Luke and Lorelai together. Seriously HATES. I agree with whoever said that they didn't have real romantic chemistry past the very first season. I still sort of shipped them anyway and hoped they'd be a good couple, but they were the worst. I don't believe in the Moonlighting Curse, but they were enough to make me rethink that. They're not just opposites, they're like species from two totally different universes who don't understand basic human communication or make each other happy at all. And the actors! They looked like it caused them acute pain to even hug. I get that they'll end up together in the reunion but can't imagine them ever being happy. Their relationship made me like both characters less and just depressed the heck out of me. Most of the romantic relationships on this show are total disasters, but I was amazed to see that Luke and Lorelai still have so many fans even after people saw what they were like together.

 

I understand Rory temporarily dropping out of Yale. I'm not saying it was the smartest and most mature decision, but I related to why she did it.  

 

Jess is such an annoying hipster punk stereotype. Even when he came back in Season 6 and was improved he had to remind us right away that he won't eat at a chain restaurant. He tries SO hard to seem way too cool for anything mainstream. The sad thing is that I think he's still the best of Rory's boyfriends because they are all so bad. My friend and I talked about whether the writer of this show deliberately made the male characters so terrible to make us love the main female characters more by comparison?  

 

If I had to pick a favorite romantic relationship I would go with Paris and Doyle. I don't even think they've been mentioned here so it's safe to claim that's unpopular.  

 

Lane and Zach putting down uncool music was especially annoying when you consider how their band was that incredibly bad. I had secondhand embarrassment for them every time we had to hear them play. 

 

I was surprised to read here how many people don't think Lorelai is a good mother. She's not perfect, but I think she was an incredible mom. Not so great as a daughter or girlfriend, but one of the best moms I've seen on TV. If anything I thought the criticism would be that it was too unrealistic that Lorelai was able to give Rory a wonderful childhood when you consider how young Lorelai was when she had Rory and how they started out. I'm pretty sure single teen moms don't usually fare as well as they did. In general I'm surprised that so many people dislike Rory and Lorelai and their relationship. They can be annoying, but literally everyone and everything about this show can be annoying! Their bonding and the show's witty dialogue are the only things I really love about Gilmore Girls overall. 

 

I never could make myself believe that Rory was really in love with Logan and was surprised they stayed together as long as they did. Every time they fought or broke up I figured they were just done and didn't really understand why the show kept putting them back together. Rory always seemed so uncomfortable around him. She seemed flattered that he wanted to be with her but something about the way they were together never felt right to me. I laughed so hard at the posts here about he never stops smirking, even during serious scenes. My friend and I talked about how hard it was not to want to punch him even when he was being a good guy because that smug smirk is ALWAYS there! 

 

I think I may be the only one who doesn't share the love for Paris. She's like Michel to me in that they're funny in small doses but not people I want around much on my show or in real life. I understand that a lot of people here hate Rory but criticizing her for not being a good enough friend to Paris is hard for me to get. Rory was much more forgiving and understanding of Paris than I think most people would ever be. 

 

Finally, I just didn't think the show was as great as I expected it to be. And I don't mean just the last few seasons, but all of it. Actually, if anything I liked parts of the last few seasons more than most people here did! I think the problem is I watched it so late and heard so much hype that there was no way the show could live up to my expectations. I just didn't like most of the characters even though I tried really hard to. The men were especially awful, but even with most of the female characters I felt like they were too annoying and obnoxious to really like. The show just tries so hard to be quirky and unique that it forgets to be likable and relatable. 

[dirtypop90]

^ I really liked the first two seasons, and enjoyed the third, but the rest were blah. By season 5, I was barely paying attention and just had it on in the background while doing chores.

another UO I actually liked Logan and Rory or maybe I just liked that logan had fun and didn't walk around looking miserable all the time like the other characters.

[CalamityBoPeep]

 

 

The only attractive man of the majors/secondaries was Luke.

He was the only guy with any sex appeal, and he had it in spades. 

While I'm attracted to tall dark and handsome, before GG I'd never been attracted to the V-shaped torso of e.g. baseball players. However, when Luke tucked that order book into his jeans, I was a goner.

I only discuss the WITS bed scene in hushed, reverent tones. LOL.

 

 

• Noses are a big thing for me. Christopher and Rachel have noses that make me cringe; although Rachel was in general quite beautiful, Christopher was never attractive to me, because of the nose first, but his general physical being second
•  

 

So much This. I've always thought Luke's (well, honestly, Scott Patterson's) nose to be absolutely gorgeous. Looking at his face in profile, especially in Seasons 4 & 5 when he was particularly fit (prepping for his love interest arc, I'd guess), I'd focus on that nose and jaw and just be smitten all over again. And yes, sprawled out on the bed, morning-after-Luke will never not be hot. LOL (And the eyes... pretty, pretty.)

 

The order pad in the jeans was when I first sat up and noticed, of course. I much preferred that Henley shirt under flannel look, with the rolled up sleeves. (God, his arms!) But then they tried to bury him, buttoning up his flannel and making him more sloppy during seasons 2 and 3. So disappointing. They were just trying to cover up the hotness so we wouldn't be going "The Hell, Lorelai! LOOK at the man!" LOL

Edited March 29, 2016 by CalamityBoPeep

[GreenScreenFX]

I hope they update his look for the reunion, cause that would just be sad. I don't need to be reminded grunge was a "thing" and that Luke can't grow out of it. I say this wearing ripped jeans, t shirt, and baseball Hat.

[EternallyCharmed]

Maybe it's partly his terrible personality, but I don't find Luke attractive at all. Even when he's dressed in nicer clothes and shaven he's kind of unattractive in my opinion. And his hair is so gross that it's no wonder they always have him in a baseball cap. Plus, he always looks bloated. He migiht be more pleasant to look at if he smiled a little more and weren't so mad and miserable all the time.

Edited March 29, 2016 by EternallyCharmed

[junienmomo]

So much This. I've always thought Luke's (well, honestly, Scott Patterson's) nose to be absolutely gorgeous. Looking at his face in profile, especially in Seasons 4 & 5 when he was particularly fit (prepping for his love interest arc, I'd guess), I'd focus on that nose and jaw and just be smitten all over again. And yes, sprawled out on the bed, morning-after-Luke will never not be hot. LOL (And the eyes... pretty, pretty.)

 

The order pad in the jeans was when I first sat up and noticed, of course. I much preferred that Henley shirt under flannel look, with the rolled up sleeves. (God, his arms!) But then they tried to bury him, buttoning up his flannel and making him more sloppy during seasons 2 and 3. So disappointing. They were just trying to cover up the hotness so we wouldn't be going "The Hell, Lorelai! LOOK at the man!" LOL

Oh, the Henley. Epics have been written to that look. 

Luke and Lorelai's relationship is proof positive that the showrunners couldn't write romance, nor could they take a couple into a healthy long-term relationship.

Given that they hired Scott Patterson based on the unbelievable chemistry with LG, and the fact that both he and Lauren Graham are respected professionals, I don't believe the actors allowed their on-screen behaviors to be driven by any personal animosity (and I have read that the rumor of them not liking each other is not true, even though they weren't 'best friends' off the set). 

The showrunners were known for having controlled on-screen behaviors with a strong hand; even LG apparently questioned the lack of romantic contact between L/L. Therefore I figure that what appeared on screen is what the showrunners wanted to have on screen: a disconnected relationship.

I'm in the group of shippers who believed that ASP would EVENTUALLY give us what we wanted, so I hung in there as I watched the series in 2014 for the first time. Boy was I wrong. Not even David Rosenthal bothered fixing it in S7; he let their relationship limp along until the last seconds of the season.

 

Here are some gratuitous Luke pics. 

[EternallyCharmed]

I guess it's just a matter of taste. I think Luke is unattractive inside and out. I knew when I came here that that was unpopular but he's definitely just not someone who everyone will like no matter how many arguments or pictures are posted. The friend I watched with thought he was even worse than I did. I think he's a dour brute who needed major therapy and lessons in communication, perspective, anger management and being a polite human being. I also think it's interesting how Lorelai and Luke only got physical when they had been drinking. Taylor even said in one episode that they seemed to need alcohol. I would probably need to be drunk to pretend to like Luke too. I just never liked the rude, angry, dumb caveman type though. 

[Melancholy]

I love Luke a lot as a person, but I don't find him that physically attractive. But whatever, he's certainly A HAWT Type for a lot of women and I respect that. As a person, though, he's pretty splendid. He's probably the best person of the major cast, but then, I highly value kindness, generosity, integrity, loyalty, and democratic impulses and fairness a lot and Luke has those in spades and I esteem practical know-how and business sense as a sign of great intelligence. There are just these poignant moments where Luke really demonstrates intelligence even though he's not pop culture conversant- speaking pretty damn good Spanish to Sookie's kitchen help even though there's no indication he ever had classes and appeared to just pick it up off Caesar and maybe some delivery guys. However, I doubt Sookie picked up Spanish despite her larger Latin workforce because later Sookie lives the "my way or the highway" life and wouldn't learn to include her help. Rory's probably his biggest competition but the Dean-affair and yacht-stealing tarnish her somewhat. 

Edited March 29, 2016 by Melancholy

[amensisterfriend]

I agree with what may be a small majority here but is a major minority elsewhere: Luke/SP is so unattractive/unappealing to me on every conceivable level. Surly scowls, unfounded bitterness and relentless complaining and criticizing are complete turnoffs for me and make him even less physically attractive than I'd have found him otherwise. But I tend to be drawn to guys who are pleasant, enthusiastic about at least some aspects of life, intelligent and quick-witted, decent communicators, and just generally enjoyable to be around...and Luke doesn't meet any of that criteria IMO. He's even bitching and complaining right up until the second he and Lorelai first kissed in R&R, like a pouty toddler who managed to behave decently for a few minutes and is now demanding his cookie as the reward he feels entitled to. But I guess he's a good catch the two-three times a year he's fixing or building something for you...?! Yeah, I'll just never get the wild popularity of this character, but I do respect and even envy those who feel differently :) 

 

On a different note, I know S4 ranks at or near the top of most fans' lists, but I just find it such a snooze now. Objectively, I love a lot of what goes on re. Rory's transition to college, Lorelai working towards her series-long dream of opening her own inn, etc., and you guys know I hold the UO of being a Digger fan, but somehow the execution feels flat and kind of disjointed and tonally 'off' for me.  And I hate, hate, HATE the end of Digger's story arc (not just when he suddenly became a stalker in Raincoats but the whole lawsuit stuff and Richard being all Machiavellian but the show not really bothering to delve into any of it because that's how GG rolls!), the inevitable 'reunion' between deadly dull, married Dean and Rory, and just in general how in retrospect this season feels like the beginning of more entitled, obnoxious behavior from major and minor characters alike in the name of both 'quirkiness' and drama. S4 also marks the season where Sookie goes from a character who I really like to moderately insufferable for me. And it's also the season that brings us Liz and TJ, and you guys KNOW how I feel about them...I'll spare you the rant :)   

 

 

[court32]

I love Luke a lot as a person, but I don't find him that physically attractive. But whatever, he's certainly A HAWT Type for a lot of women and I respect that. As a person, though, he's pretty splendid. He's probably the best person of the major cast, but then, I highly value kindness, generosity, integrity, loyalty, and democratic impulses and fairness a lot and Luke has those in spades and I esteem practical know-how and business sense as a sign of great intelligence. There are just these poignant moments where Luke really demonstrates intelligence even though he's not pop culture conversant- speaking pretty damn good Spanish to Sookie's kitchen help even though there's no indication he ever had classes and appeared to just pick it up off Caesar and maybe some delivery guys. However, I doubt Sookie picked up Spanish despite her larger Latin workforce because later Sookie lives the "my way or the highway" life and wouldn't learn to include her help. Rory's probably his biggest competition but the Dean-affair and yacht-stealing tarnish her somewhat. 

I can't remember the exact episodes but I know Sookie has spoken Spanish to her cooks on more than one occasion.

 

I also have to hop on the SP/Luke is not that attractive. Physically I can't get past the hair and as a person can't get past the anger management issues. All of his many good deeds are canceled out by him treating anyone that is not Lorelai, Rory, or a part of his family like absolute crap is not attractive. .

 

[dustylil]

speaking pretty damn good Spanish to Sookie's kitchen help even though there's no indication he ever had classes and appeared to just pick it up off Caesar and maybe some delivery guys

 

Don't high school students have either an option or a requirement  to take a foreign language somewhere along the way in order to get  a diploma? Perhaps that is where he learned Spanish.

[solotrek]

Don't high school students have either an option or a requirement  to take a foreign language somewhere along the way in order to get  a diploma? Perhaps that is where he learned Spanish.

I don't know how old Luke is, but I think it's safe to say that it's been many years since he took high school Spanish. Most people I know didn't remember anything from high school Spanish a year or two after taking the regents exam.

[Sara2009]

Luke is a good person when it comes to morals and values, but being around him would feel like a chore.I don't think I could take his pessimism and grumpiness for more than a few minutes. As annoying and selfish as she could be at times, I'd MUCH rather hang out with Lorelai. At least she liked having fun and wasn't a complete buzzkill.

[dirtypop90]

^ I agree. I just couldn't stand to be around someone so grumpy all the time. I really have a hard time being around friends, family members, and coworkers who exude negative energy all the time, so I damn sure couldn't be romantically involved with someone who did but I'm a pretty positive person.

And yes yes yes re not being able to get over Luke's hair! Ugh it would make me so angry when he was having a romantic scene with lorelai and not wearing his baseball cap because his hair just killed it (well actually that plus the lack of chemistry had me turning away) I get why they didn't let Luke wear the cap on dates etc but he really really needed the cap. It did wonders for him.

[Guest]

Just a quick reminder that this thread is meant to be a "safe" place to express your unpopular opinions.  

 

Thank you!

[FictionLover]

I always wonder what would have happened with Christopher if "I'm with Her" would have had a 2nd season on ABC. Once the show was over and Sutcliff was free, AS-P started working on how to bring Chris back in to throw the wrench in Luke and Lorelai's relationship. You know she would have tried to find another way, I could have seen Max being brought back, as there was Lorelai and him kissing in the classroom in season 2 before Christopher showed back up. I don't know, I find that the worst GG storylines and plots were because former actors on the show all of a sudden were free. They did it with Marty, Nicole, Christopher and Dean every time the actors other work crashed and burn or they were free for a month. Unlike said characters meeting their natural course such as Max, Jason, Trix and Richard's butler. 

It seems that is what happening with the revival too!  All ASP favorites from Bunheads and GG are returning to the revival and it seems like it's going to be a lot of cameos of her buddies for a reunion.  Really, Digger! Why? Pretty soon we might hear Anna is coming back too (but don't ask Melissa McCarthy). I was looking forward to it but I'm not so sure anymore.

[andromeda331]

I like Luke and I like Lorelai, and I like their friendship but I do agree I don't think their right for each other.

Not just Luke isn't right for Lorelai but that Lorelai isn't right for Luke either. He's a homebody, he's happy

staying home, he's not really interested in going to the town functions and likes to fish and camp. I think

he'd be happy with a woman who liked to stay home and was more outdoorsy wanting to go fishing and

camping.

[cuddlingcrowley]

I think I may be the only one who doesn't share the love for Paris. She's like Michel to me in that they're funny in small doses but not people I want around much on my show or in real life. I understand that a lot of people here hate Rory but criticizing her for not being a good enough friend to Paris is hard for me to get. Rory was much more forgiving and understanding of Paris than I think most people would ever be.

 

 

 

Table for two please! I'm so there with you! In the Chilton years, especially, Rory goes above and beyond in trying to be nice to Paris time and time again, only for Paris to turn on her at the drop of a hat. Hell, Rory even attempts to appeal to Paris' basic sense of civility and even that is a struggle. Don't get me wrong, I do think Paris is an important character for Rory to bounce off of. Not only so we get to see "The nicest kid in the world" Lorelai talks so much about but especially because as nice as Rory was to her, she was never a doormat. At times Paris inspired a lot of great snark from Rory. But yeah, I don't think Rory owes her anything.

 

And I can see where others come from when they say sometimes their friendship can appear one-sided or simply unbalanced but I think Rory has every reason not to completely let her guard down around Paris and embrace their friendship because, imo, Paris has shown herself as not someone Rory can really depend on.

 

On a different note, I know S4 ranks at or near the top of most fans' lists, but I just find it such a snooze now.

 

 

 

S4 is one of my least favorite seasons. I privately call it the "bad hair year" for both Lorelai and Rory. And I'm always amazed how boring Rory's freshman year at college is to the point I'm thankful for the drama with married!Dean. That's how boring I find that season.

Edited March 30, 2016 by cuddlingcrowley

[Kohola3]

All of his many good deeds are canceled out by him treating anyone that is not Lorelai, Rory, or a part of his family like absolute crap is not attractive.

 

Well, I wouldn't be quite that restrictive.  He did more than tolerate Kirk on many occasions (way more than I would), Seemed to be genuinely fond of Lane and her idiot husband, apparently got along well with Gypsy, was obviously loved by Babette and Miss Patty to name a few.  

[dustylil]

I don't know how old Luke is, but I think it's safe to say that it's been many years since he took high school Spanish. Most people I know didn't remember anything from high school Spanish a year or two after taking the regents exam

 

I think Luke was in his mid/late thirties when the series started.  So it may well have been several years since he took courses in Spanish. But  with respect,  if  he was using the language in the workplace - as he appeared to be - and it was not just a  requirement to get his high school diploma back in the day, why wouldn't he remember how to speak it?

 

Regarding Rory and Paris, I agree Rory didn't owe Paris a thing. But I was kind of disappointed that during the Yale years the friendship didn't mature into a relationship between equals. Paris was one of the few people who could have offered Rory a few pithy - alright  caustic - home truths about her conduct in late Season 4 and much of Season 5.

[junienmomo]

Well, I wouldn't be quite that restrictive.  He did more than tolerate Kirk on many occasions (way more than I would), Seemed to be genuinely fond of Lane and her idiot husband, apparently got along well with Gypsy, was obviously loved by Babette and Miss Patty to name a few.

He also was an active softball player, as a pitcher arguably taking a leading role in Stars Hollow informal sports.

He was personable to customers, which was observed and discussed by Lorelai and Rory.

He made a big financial commitment and took personal interest in the girls soccer team, making sure they had better uniforms and sponsored them

He took care of the re-enactors, giving them drinks and in general taking care of them

He had a good enough relationship with (?) Mrs. Cassini for her to continue to rent her garage to him over many years, which tells me the argument we observed was a fluke, made worse for occurring on his dark day.

Townies knew about his dark day and respected it, even Taylor.

He provided a lot of food for cinnamon's wake, which had a direct impact on his profitability as compared to Sookie, who was at least using the Independence Inn's facilities and maybe their food as well

He bought significant amounts of local real estate, which in small town America is a real service to the community.

He donated to the rummage sale like any other townie.

[Melancholy]

Well, I wouldn't be quite that restrictive.  He did more than tolerate Kirk on many occasions (way more than I would), Seemed to be genuinely fond of Lane and her idiot husband, apparently got along well with Gypsy, was obviously loved by Babette and Miss Patty to name a few.  

 

Yup. junienmomo said some of this stuff while I was mid-post. Luke was super-respectful and kind to Emily and Richard even though Emily, in particular, treated him like dirt, including when Lorelai was married to Chris. Did favors for Kirk, from the egg-hunting to interrupting his first smooch session with Lorelai to help Kirk with his night terrors to letting Kirk video himself at the diner. Luke was hung-up on Lorelai through the show and that's a problem, but I think he tried with Rachel and Nicole and he didn't "treat them like crap". He made every effort to respect and accommodate Anna to the point that it was a genuine flaw because some people deserve a little anger thrown their way and Anna was one of those. He was generally helpful and respectful to Sookie and Michel, although you wouldn't know it from their conduct. He gave the Reenactors hot beverages for free, even though he personally thought their tradition was stupid. He was initially gruff and stand-offish, but once he was involved, he was great to kids from his girls' soccer team to the boys he taught to build the Fiddler on the Roof set to April's friends. Even in a small moment, when Paris stormed in in a fit over how Lorelai was handling drop-out Rory, Luke rolled with Temper Tantrum!Paris as few do and upped and agreed with Paris to be on Rory's side even if it meant annoying Lorelai. 

 

Speaking of some people deserving a little anger thrown their way, I was pretty much with Luke in his hostiles with Christopher and Taylor. Luke could get a little OTT with Taylor- but generally, I agree with Luke's opposition of Taylor's dictatorial, self-serving power games. I'll admit that he was unfair to Logan at first, until in a low moment, Logan expensively bailed out Luke's lack of thoughtfulness towards Lorelai on Valentine's Day and THEN suddenly Luke was cool with Logan. Ick, that was a low point. And I don't know if Luke was technically *unfair* to Dean because I think Dean WAS an asshole for dumping Rory because she couldn't say "I love you" just then, Luke was right to be uncomfortable with Rory and Dean swanning about town like they didn't just break up a marriage, and I love the "Rory's like Pippi and if Pippi hooked up with Dean, he'd spend all of her gold coins and there'd be no adventures or horse-lifting" speech because APT POINT. However, yeah, it wasn't Luke's point to make and especially like how he made it. 

[Kohola3]

I'll admit that he was unfair to Logan at first, until in a low moment, Logan expensively bailed out Luke's lack of thoughtfulness towards Lorelai on Valentine's Day and THEN suddenly Luke was cool with Logan. Ick, that was a low point.

 

Oh, Lord, yes.  The second worst episode with French Twist being the first.  Just my opinion, of course....

[AllyB]

 He's probably the best person of the major cast, but then, I highly value kindness, generosity, integrity, loyalty, and democratic impulses and fairness a lot and Luke has those in spades and I esteem practical know-how and business sense as a sign of great intelligence.

In terms of Luke's business sense and intelligence, I love how in Lost and Found when he explains why he bought the building next door, he just says - 'it was $100,000 so I went to the bank and got a cheque.' He just had that money in a savings account and the ease with which he spent it suggests he still had quite a lot still saved. Which is backed up by other big loans/expenditures he makes throughout the series. Luke didn't inherit a big bank account as he has stated that his father wasn't a good business man. And Luke obviously learned from that, made his own business thrive and was extremely sensible with money, allowing him the ability to take financial care of those he loves when they need it. And without strings attached, even though his wealth is less than Emily and Richard's and harder earned.

 

His dourness would certainly be extremely wearying if you had to live with it, though I had initially assumed it was something of a facade and defense mechanism which would have rescinded in a relationship with Lorelai. And I'm not physically attracted to him, but his obvious financial acumen, business and personal, appealed to me when put alongside his generosity.