One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[dustylil]

Not to mention that she was a legacy at both Yale and Princeton, technically

 

Right! Richard and Straub! I know Christopher never graduated from Princeton. Did he even attend?

[brightside]

Right! Richard and Straub! I know Christopher never graduated from Princeton. Did he even attend?

 

I don't think so. That was one thing that made me hate Straub (in addition to all the others)...why was Lorelai at fault for Chris not going to Princeton, exactly? Not like he was busy being a parent. 

[dustylil]

why was Lorelai at fault for Chris not going to Princeton, exactly?

 

brightside, now really. You wouldn't expect Straub to hold Christopher responsible for his conduct would you? Anymore than he and Francine felt responsible for the care and support of Rory.

[Minneapple]

But, as the article pointed out, things came so easy to Rory and yet we were supposed to believe she was the underdog when, at some point that clearly turned around for her and she wasn't. By the time she was in Yale she was no longer (if she ever was) the scrappy upstart from a small town that fought her way to the ivy leagues. and it felt disingenuous that they tried to act like she was.

I thought that was the whole point of seasons five and six? Rory had embraced Emily and Richard's lifestyle. She was enjoying the privileges of their wealth. I didn't think Rory, giving the maid orders about her wardrobe and running after her screaming "Maid! Maid!" was supposed to be seen as a scrappy upstart anymore.

But I don't think we were ever supposed to see Rory as "scrappy" or an "underdog." She was always smart, she got into Chilton on her own merits. She just didn't care about fitting into the Chilton social scene, which is why I liked her. She didn't fall for Tristan's ridiculous lines or teasing or giggle at his not-roguish behavior. She wasn't cowed by Paris' bullying. She knew who she was and she liked who she was, and that was all upended starting in season four -- and that's when she changed.

[brightside]

brightside, now really. You wouldn't expect Straub to hold Christopher responsible for his conduct would you? Anymore than he and Francine felt responsible for the care and support of Rory.

 

Sigh. No, but that doesn't mean I'll ever get over it. 

 

I agree, Minneapple. Rory never seemed like a scrappy underdog to me either.

[GreenScreenFX]

I was weirdly obsessed by the Gilmore Girls, for years I wished my relationship with my mother was similar to theirs.... After reading this thread, I have snapped out of it. Thank you..

[andromeda331]

That was one thing that made me hate Straub (in addition to all the others)...why was Lorelai at fault for Chris not going to Princeton, exactly?

Straub is probably the only reason I love that Rory got into Princeton, I know Rory's not spiteful but I

kept wishing Lorelai had sent him a copy of her acceptance letter or something with some great

sarcastic comment but I've never able to settle on the best one either something awesome about

turning down the school or something about Rory getting in I don't know what it would be but

 I'm sure Lorelai could come up with something.

[Taryn74]

Straub is probably the only reason I love that Rory got into Princeton, I know Rory's not spiteful but I

kept wishing Lorelai had sent him a copy of her acceptance letter or something...

 

Hahahahahaha it never even occurred to me before now that Princeton was "Straub's school".  That's priceless.

[clack]

Out of all of Rory's love interests or prospective love interests -- Dean, Tristan, Jess, Marty, and Logan -- I found Tristan to be the most interesting. Beneath the obnoxious veneer there was something yearning and self- loathing at work. Jess had a chip on his shoulder, but he was a survivor. Tristan was set on self-destruct. I think he wanted Rory to save him.

You can pretty much project where all those other guys are in life, 10 years later, but Tristan? Stuck in a Wall Street job he hates? Doing charity work for a Catholic organization in Africa? Dead from a drug overdose?

[HeySandyStrange]

 

You can pretty much project where all those other guys are in life, 10 years later, but Tristan? Stuck in a Wall Street job he hates? Doing charity work for a Catholic organization in Africa? Dead from a drug overdose?

 

I'd say that has a lot to do with the fact that Tristan wasn't around too long and we never got to know him as well as the other men in Rory's life. It definitely left him open as character for fans to explore and imagine his past, present and future, especially in regards to a relationship with Rory.

 

Imo he was mostly into Rory because a) she didn't immediately fall into his arms, so a real challenge for him and b) she was smart and driven, yet unaffected and relaxed. Very different then most the girls around him, and going be the fact he respected Paris he probably liked intelligence but not the extreme type A personalities that some of the people at Chilton probably had.

 

For some reason I always thought he might've ended up liking military school and maybe went on to having a military career, which we certainly open up many interesting avenues for him if he ever was to appear in the GG universe again. I do think it would be kind of fun for him to make an appearance in the upcoming revival, for old times sake, as doubtful as that is.

[dustylil]

Hilarious as it is to think of Rory getting into Princeton because of her connection to the loving, warm-hearted Straub, I was wondering if it actually would have been feasible for her to get in as a legacy. Would the senior Mr. Hayden not have to sign something acknowledging her as his granddaughter? I don't imagine Rory (or anyone for that matter) could simply say to a college - yes, Straub Hayden is my grandfather so you must take that into account when assessing me for admission.

 

Apologies if this is a stupid question. Being a legacy doesn't play much - if any - role in admissions to colleges and universities in Canada.

[moonb]

I have a feeling we're supposed to think Rory got in to Princeton on her own merits, like Harvard. I'm guessing legacy admissions work more like what we saw in LTGB - Richard arranging a meeting for Rory with the dean, plus a couple phone calls to his connections at Yale. Rory could have mentioned that Straub went to Princeton on her application under the "relatives attended" section, but she probably forgot about it. He was only "Christopher's dad" after all, not her grandfather. Though yes, it's hilarious to think of Straub lifting a finger for the Baby that Ended Chris's future. 

[tennisgurl]

I kind of liked Tristan as well, at least as the series went on. I always felt like there was something else going on with him, like he had real problems underneath the surface, that was leading to him acting out. Of course, I might be a bit more forgiving of The Chad now, as I have been really enjoying his performance over on Agent Carter. Its made me more open to embracing The Chad.

 

My big GG Unpopular opinion? I could not stand Jess, at least during the High School years. I thought he was mean, nasty, hateful, and REALLY pretentious. He kind of hurt my enjoyment of the show for awhile, because I just did not get why Rory was into him (this was before Rorys taste for bad boys had really reared its ugly head, other than her one kiss with Tristan) over Dean. I mean, yeah they had to make Dean kind of a possessive moron, but I still just did not get her thing with Jess. Yeah, he reads books! Big freaking deal. So do lots of people, and just talking about Proust does not a good relationship make. When he left, I was thrilled.

 

However, I actually really came to like Jess when he showed up again, older and wiser. THAT Jess I could see getting with Rory. The scene where he yells at Rory about dropping out of Yale is one of my favorite GG moments ever. Also leads to one of my favorite GG memories. My mom hated Jess a thousand times more than I did, and when we saw that he was coming back, she literally complained for an entire week about Jess and how much he sucked and how he was going to ruin the show even more (she was not at all a fan of the Rory Goes Rich storyline). By the end of the episode, she was literally cheering him on, and announcing how she wanted Rory to end up with Jess. Even now, when we talk about the re-boot, she always says how she wants Jess to end up with Rory. One hell of a turn around.  

Edited February 27, 2016 by tennisgurl

[txhorns79]

Would the senior Mr. Hayden not have to sign something acknowledging her as his granddaughter? I don't imagine Rory (or anyone for that matter) could simply say to a college - yes, Straub Hayden is my grandfather so you must take that into account when assessing me for admission.

 

Most universities simply ask on the application if you have any kind of legacy connection, and you tell them who it is that way.  Perhaps the process has dramatically changed since I applied to college, but I've never heard of anyone being required to have the legacy they are claiming provide proof of the connection.  Maybe if you were claiming a celebrity, or someone extremely prominent as your connection they might ask for more information, but otherwise, I always viewed it as an honor system.       

[clack]

Though I did find Tristan interestingly conflicted, it was to the show's good that his storyline was prematurely ended. I mean, there are "bad boys" (Jess, Logan), and then there are deeply troubled boys (Tristan). It would have violated GG's light dramatic comedy tone to go to the dark places an honestly depicted Rory/Tristan relationship would have taken us.

Tristan wasn't 12. He's had girlfriends. Think of the implied self-hatred and misogyny involved with approaching with insults and contempt a girl you're infatuated with. As much as he longed for the lifeline that a relationship with Rory represented, he would have wound up despising her for loving him, when he didn't love himself.

[Minneapple]

I actually liked Tristan as well. He was a douche to start, and probably his only real interest in Rory was because she didn't like him, but after he got to know her he seemed to genuinely like her. He just didn't know how to handle it, leading to the PJ Harvey ticket debacle.

Anyway, I thought he was the most interesting of Rory's love interests. I think the writers missed him, which is why they wrote Logan as a Tristan retread. I firmly believe that Tristan and later Logan were written to be Rory's Christopher but that Rory wouldn't make the same mistakes her mom did.

Edited February 27, 2016 by Minneapple

[HeySandyStrange]

 

Though I did find Tristan interestingly conflicted, it was to the show's good that his storyline was prematurely ended. I mean, there are "bad boys" (Jess, Logan), and then there are deeply troubled boys (Tristan). It would have violated GG's light dramatic comedy tone to go to the dark places an honestly depicted Rory/Tristan relationship would have taken us.

 

What would've probably happened with Tristan is what happened with Jess; they'd build up to them having some troubled, dark past but never effectively follow through with it. It goes back to the UO I had about Liz, that she was supposed to be this terrible, neglectful parent but what I saw was a bubbly, irresponsible, goofy ditz. So Tristan remaining a bit of a mystery isn't a bad thing.

 

 

My big GG Unpopular opinion? I could not stand Jess, at least during the High School years. I thought he was mean, nasty, hateful, and REALLY pretentious.

 

I think his arrogance and pretentiousness is what really turned me off to Jess in his Star's Hollow days. The fact that he looked down on just about everyone in town except Rory as dumb yokels was a sticking point with me. I must admit, I thought it sweet karma that he didn't pass HS while Dean, whom he looked down on as an intellectual inferior, did. 

 

I do agree that he became much more palatable in later seasons. He seemed to be one of the most matured of the younger characters and like he actually learned from past mistakes and was more humble for it. Looking back, he was also one of the few guys in Rory's life that didn't remain obsessed with her. Yes, he still had feelings (as with that kiss in season 6) but he wasn't making himself a doormat for her.

[brightside]

I do agree that he became much more palatable in later seasons. He seemed to be one of the most matured of the younger characters and like he actually learned from past mistakes and was more humble for it. Looking back, he was also one of the few guys in Rory's life that didn't remain obsessed with her. Yes, he still had feelings (as with that kiss in season 6) but he wasn't making himself a doormat for her.

 

I think this might actually be my biggest UO--I don't think Jess is all that different in the later seasons. Calmer, and employed...but still Jess. Mostly I will say that we simply don't see him enough for me to accept that he is as different as a lot of the fandom seems to think. He has certainly grown up a little, but we don't know enough about him for me to have any sort of opinion on how different he is. Plus, we largely see him interact with people he likes/respects (Rory and Luke). I'd be more interested to see him deal with Lorelai, Dean, or Taylor. The one person he doesn't like that we see him deal with is Logan, and based on Logan's crazy shitballs behavior in that episode, that feels like a bad way to judge. 

 

I always think the Tristan/Logan comparison is interesting. I agree they're alike, but more in terms of background rather than personality. Tristan was more...basic. If he had been able to stick around I think he would have had more depth and I'd be interested in a friendship between him and Rory. He certainly didn't know what to do with her. Every time I watch the episode where he doesn't get Rory's Casablanca reference I think "Boy, you will need to work harder to keep up with her." I think Logan had a stronger personality and was at least meant to be portrayed as a little smarter (if the show succeeded in showing that is another matter). In the end I think Tristan was a victim of a lack of screen time. 

Edited February 28, 2016 by brightside

[Kohola3]

Logan is Tristan 2.0.  Poor little rich boy, so misunderstood by Mommy and Daddy.  Money and lawyers always on standby to bail them out of their "boyish pranks".  I can see Tristan in the Life and Death Brigade if he's made it to Yale.

 

I believe the current term for this is affluenza. Both little snots too cool for school.

[Aloeonatable]

 

I must admit, I thought it sweet karma that he didn't pass HS while Dean, whom he looked down on as an intellectual inferior, did.

 

It is not for lack of intelligence that Jess didn't pass HS, he just didn't attend the requisite hours. Which leads me to my UO, I don't think they dumbed Dean down to contrast with Jess. Dean was never portrayed as being anything but of average intelligence. Yes, he read Hunter Thompson, but what else did he say or do that would lead someone to think he was Rory's intellectual equal. Didn't he tell the Gilmores at the dinner he attended that he was an average student, one who got C's and B's? He had mechanical skills & was an athlete, but we really never saw much more in the first season. Jess and Rory both enjoyed reading and discussing books a lot. 

 

I believe that some HS age students don't necessarily fit into the traditional HS tract. That doesn't mean they aren't smart or driven. Jess is one of those students. 

[HeySandyStrange]

 

It is not for lack of intelligence that Jess didn't pass HS, he just didn't attend the requisite hours. Which leads me to my UO, I don't think they dumbed Dean down to contrast with Jess. Dean was never portrayed as being anything but of average intelligence.

 

Oh, I think Jess was pretty intelligent and I know he didn't fail because he was dumb. His arrogance  and disinterest in school was what brought him down. I had a hard time having sympathy for him in the aspect that he acted like it was so shocking that he was failing for non-attendance, or that being intelligence should've been enough alone for him to pass.

 

Dean was pretty average as far as intelligence went, though I still tend to think he was more well-rounded early on. JMO, of course.

[Aloeonatable]

I wish Jess was given the opportunity to take the GED instead of repeating his senior year. It wasn't like he wanted to go to college, so finishing that way was his best alternative. He still would not have been able to go to the prom, but at least he would have completed HS. He was way too cocky and he suffered the consequences of his behavior.

 

 

What would've probably happened with Tristan is what happened with Jess; they'd build up to them having some troubled, dark past but never effectively follow through with it.

 

 

 

If he had been able to stick around I think he would have had more depth and I'd be interested in a friendship between him and Rory. He certainly didn't know what to do with her. Every time I watch the episode where he doesn't get Rory's Casablanca reference I think "Boy, you will need to work harder to keep up with her." I think Logan had a stronger personality and was at least meant to be portrayed as a little smarter (if the show succeeded in showing that is another matter). In the end I think Tristan was a victim of a lack of screen time.

 

 

The only difference between Tristan and Logan, to me, is that one was in high school and the other a few years older and in college. Otherwise they are two peas in a pod. 

Edited February 28, 2016 by Aloeonatable

[txhorns79]

I believe that some HS age students don't necessarily fit into the traditional HS tract. That doesn't mean they aren't smart or driven. Jess is one of those students.

 

Jess may have been smart, but he certainly was not driven.  I have to agree with HeySandy.  Jess' problem was less that he didn't fit into the traditional high school tract, and more just extreme arrogance.  He seemed to think he was better than most people in the town, and for whatever reason, normal rules, like that you have to regularly attend school to graduate, didn't apply to him.   

[clack]

Aspects of Tristan went into both Jess and Logan : the rebel without a cause for Jess, the arrogant rich boy for Logan. But Logan was quite different from Tristan.

Logan was self-assured where Tristan was insecure, affable where Tristan was angry, smooth where Tristan was jagged. And Logan had the grades, the writing talent, and the test scores to get into Yale. Tristan had none of that.

More importantly, Logan was long-term boyfriend material, Tristan at best a fling that Rory would have looked back on with regret.

[txhorns79]

Logan was self-assured where Tristan was insecure, affable where Tristan was angry, smooth where Tristan was jagged. And Logan had the grades, the writing talent, and the test scores to get into Yale. Tristan had none of that.

 

In fairness, we only saw Tristan as a teenager in high school, while Logan was already 23 or 24 the first time we met him. 

 

As to Logan's admission to Yale, didn't he and Chris bond over the schools both had been expelled from?  I honestly thought Logan's admission to Yale had more to do with Logan being the member of a very prominent, wealthy family, than his being a good student or excelling in testing.   

[dustylil]

And Logan had the grades, the writing talent, and the test scores to get into Yale. Tristan had none of that

 

Respectfully, how do we know this? Perhaps Logan got into Yale as a legacy and a large donation from the family for a campus building. Maybe the Shira Huntzberger School of Husbandry.

[brightside]

As to Logan's admission to Yale, didn't he and Chris bond over the schools both had been expelled from?  I honestly thought Logan's admission to Yale had more to do with Logan being the member of a very prominent, wealthy family, than his being a good student or excelling in testing.   

 

I don't think we have enough information to know either way. In reality, being a legacy admission to an elite school is like a 160 point boost on your SAT score. Certainly a huge help, but you can't be a complete failure on your high school transcripts. Yale admits somewhere between 20-25% of legacy applicants. But it's not like Gilmore Girls has the strongest relationship with reality. 

 

I think the what the most likely real-world scenario would be is that Logan did well in high school, made decent grades, wrote a great essay, got great test scores and his dad used his influence to have the suspensions/expulsions/discipline issues just look like transfers on his transcript. Logan applied like any other legacy applicant would have and got in. But the show never tells us, so the viewer has to draw their own conclusion--so who knows?

[shron17]

Jess' problem was less that he didn't fit into the traditional high school tract, and more just extreme arrogance.  He seemed to think he was better than most people in the town, and for whatever reason, normal rules, like that you have to regularly attend school to graduate, didn't apply to him.

You've described Jess's problem perfectly.  It was his arrogance that not only kept him from graduating but also leaving without more discussion when Luke told him he had to go back to school or leave.  Sure, he's intelligent and  could have easily gotten a GED but he wasn't mature enough at that point to make an good decision, and certainly wasn't ready to be out in the world on his own.  I think what Jess needed to do was to suck it up and go back and repeat his senior year in Stars Hollow.  He had a place to live and a job, all he had to do was put in his time at school, save money and get himself into a better starting place. I think Jess's arrogance comes from a combination of intelligence, independence and insecurity.  He had to hit bottom on his own before he realized he had to change, to grow up. 

 

I think this might actually be my biggest UO--I don't think Jess is all that different in the later seasons. Calmer, and employed...but still Jess. Mostly I will say that we simply don't see him enough for me to accept that he is as different as a lot of the fandom seems to think. He has certainly grown up a little, but we don't know enough about him for me to have any sort of opinion on how different he is.

I agree with this--Jess is still the same stubborn, independent, intelligent person he always will be.  When he feels threatened he would likely revert to his old angry, arrogant mode until he got a handle on it.  Amy did a good job of writing him in season 6 as different but still the same.

 

My UO is agreeing that Liz was not a completely terrible person or parent, because there's no way Jess could have turned out as well as he did without a foundation of receiving love and support from his only parent.

[txhorns79]

My UO is agreeing that Liz was not a completely terrible person or parent, because there's no way Jess could have turned out as well as he did without a foundation of receiving love and support from his only parent.

 

I disagree with that.  From everything we heard, Jess had a very unstable upbringing with a mostly indifferent parent.  I think he finally turned it around in spite of Liz, not because she provided him with any foundation of love and support.   

[shron17]

I disagree with that.  From everything we heard, Jess had a very unstable upbringing with a mostly indifferent parent.

The thing is, you can make an awful lot of mistakes and still provide a child with a foundation of love and support.  Especially since most of our personality is formed before we're 5 years old.  As long as Jess felt mostly loved and secure as a small child he likely had a good bond with Liz until he reached the age where his own personality was more fully formed.  And honestly knowing Jess I think if he hadn't had a bond with Liz he would have been out of there long before he turned 17.  Many kids have a hard time getting through the teen years even if they have two great parents.  Also, it seems to me an indifferent parent wouldn't have bothered to send her 17-year-old to his uncle in a small town where he'd be much less likely to get into the kind of trouble that could ruin his life than to just pretend she didn't know what he was doing in New York. 

Edited February 28, 2016 by shron17

[Taryn74]

And honestly knowing Jess I think if he hadn't had a bond with Liz he would have been out of there long before he turned 17.  Many kids have a hard time getting through the teen years even if they have two great parents.  Liz was also responsible enough to send him to Luke in Stars Hollow where it was bound to be harder for a 17-year-old to get into trouble than in New York. 

 

Agree.  A thousand times, agree.  And even if he managed to stick around until then, the minute Liz said she was sending him to his uncle in Small Town, USA he would have been out the door with an 'eff you'.  

 

It's a small moment, but I find it telling that when Jess comes in during Nag Hammadi and Liz does that thing where she presses her forehead against his and goes on about positive energy bringing all her favorite men to her, if they DIDN'T have some sort of good relationship he would have called her out on her hypocrisy.

[shron17]

It's a small moment, but I find it telling that when Jess comes in during Nag Hammadi and Liz does that thing where she presses her forehead against his and goes on about positive energy bringing all her favorite men to her, if they DIDN'T have some sort of good relationship he would have called her out on her hypocrisy.

 

Also, Jess told Luke later that he didn't hate his mother.  Even though he came and was in the wedding mostly for Luke, I doubt he would have if he couldn't stand being around Liz at all.  And after the wedding he said he was good with his mom and gave both her and Luke a more permanent cell phone number.  Liz certainly wasn't the best mother, probably not even a good one, but I don't think she was terrible either.  I do think Liz did the best she could at the time, which is really all any parent can do.

[txhorns79]

The thing is, you can make an awful lot of mistakes and still provide a child with a foundation of love and support.  Especially since most of our personality is formed before we're 5 years old.  As long as Jess felt mostly loved and secure as a small child he likely had a good bond with Liz until he reached the age where his own personality was more fully formed.

 

From what we saw and heard, Liz was mostly a flake who drifted between men and had a poor handle on her son.  This changed somewhat with TJ, and she became more stable.  I saw very little to indicate Jess felt he a "good bond" with his mother, and he essentially had to be talked into attending her wedding out of deference, not to her, but to Luke.  That he essentially came to accept her for the failure of a parent she was, probably says more about Jess growing up than his love for his mother. 

Edited February 28, 2016 by txhorns79

[photo fox]

I believe you can love your kid and still be a really, really, bad parent. I think that's what Jess finally resigned himself to accept. He realized that she was a crap mom, not because she didn't want to be better, but because she didn't know how to be better. Cold comfort, but better than believing your own mother didn't give a shit about you.

[txhorns79]

I believe you can love your kid and still be a really, really, bad parent. I think that's what Jess finally resigned himself to accept. He realized that she was a crap mom, not because she didn't want to be better, but because she didn't know how to be better. Cold comfort, but better than believing your own mother didn't give a shit about you.

 

I can agree with that.  She was of the "I've tried nothing, and am all out of ideas," school of parenting. 

[shron17]

She was of the "I've tried nothing, and am all out of ideas," school of parenting. 

But as far as we know this was one time when Jess was 17.  Luke mentioned helping Liz when she lost her apartment or was broke but apparently was never called on to help with Jess before.  I still think Liz deserves credit for getting Jess, who is admittedly intelligent and well-read, safely to the age of 17. We don't know enough about Jess's childhood to say for sure that she was a crappy mom for the entire 17 years or to say that Jess is intelligent and likes to read because he was well-cared for and read to as a young child. We have Jess's opinions, of course, but he likely can't remember and has no idea of all the work required to raise a child on your own.

[txhorns79]

I still think Liz deserves credit for getting Jess, who is admittedly intelligent and well-read, safely to the age of 17.

 

That seems like a low bar in terms of parenting. 

 

We don't know enough about Jess's childhood to say for sure that she was a crappy mom for the entire 17 years or to say that Jess is intelligent and likes to read because he was well-cared for and read to as a young child. We have Jess's opinions, of course, but he likely can't remember and has no idea of all the work required to raise a child on your own.

 

I would say if Liz had been a good parent to Jess at some point, we would probably have heard something from Luke about it.  In Nick & Nora / Sid & Nancy, Luke calls her a basketcase and nutjob.  He suggests her reaction to a difficult situation is to give up or run away, and that she put about "five or six" minutes of thought into her plan to send Jess to him.  That doesn't suggest to me that she had some point of really good parenting that just fell apart so much as she just was someone who didn't get her act together.       

[HeySandyStrange]

 

We don't know enough about Jess's childhood to say for sure that she was a crappy mom for the entire 17 years or to say that Jess is intelligent and likes to read because he was well-cared for and read to as a young child.

 

Going by Liz's personality, which was in the flighty ditz zone, I tend to think she was in the Friends with my kid, permissive school of parenting. Not unlike how Lorelai raised Rory, only Lorelai was more stable and blessed with an extremely well-behaved child. Jess obviously needed more guidance and a stronger hand then Liz was able to provide. Overall, I think she was a mediocre at best parent that seemingly had some maternal love and care for her child. She wasn't in the L&O: SVU  category of terrible parenting and even in the real world I think she would fall in the slightly below average range.

 

This makes me wonder how Lorelai would've done if she had gotten the Jess and not the Rory. Better? Worse? About the same? That would be a fascinating AU flip to see.

[txhorns79]

She wasn't in the L&O: SVU  category of terrible parenting and even in the real world I think she would fall in the slightly below average range.

 

Hee!  I think the actress playing Liz did appear on SVU as the daughter/partner in crime of an abusive foster parent. 

[dustylil]

Sure, he's intelligent and  could have easily gotten a GED but he wasn't mature enough at that point to make an good decision, and certainly wasn't ready to be out in the world on his own.  I think what Jess needed to do was to suck it up and go back and repeat his senior year in Stars Hollow.  He had a place to live and a job, all he had to do was put in his time at school, save money and get himself into a better starting place

 

I am unfamiliar with the GED process, but was there some reason why Jess could not have done a GED while living in Stars Hollow and not go back to the local school? He had no friends at Stars Hollow High but was apparently liked and respected at Walmart. Could he not have continued to work and completed  secondary school in a non-traditional way? It seemed to me unnecessarily cruel to  Jess and the Stars Hollow High School staff and students to have him return there.

 

Lorelai was more stable and blessed with an extremely well-behaved child. Jess obviously needed more guidance and a stronger hand then Liz was able to provide.

 

With respect, I would think having a gainfully employed parent with no substance abuse issues, no parade of "gentlemen callers" and who had firm and established house rules of what was to be done and what was expected may have contributed to Rory being "an extremely well-behaved child. Had Jess had that kind of upbringing, who knows how he would have been as a teenager.

[Melancholy]

I'm more in the txhorns79 group that Liz was a bad mother. Yes, I'm sure Liz wasn't abusive. While I'm sure Liz/Jess were very poor, it doesn't sound like Social Services needed to called or anything although I really have a hunch that there were some At Risk moments where a younger, more hardcore party Liz was too drunk or high and a little Jess could have hurt himself or was left unfed or unbathed for too long. However, I really feel like Jess wasn't nurtured and his mother didn't take an interest in his life, beyond providing the basics. I never got a vibe from Jess that Liz was so concerned with being his best friend ala Lorelai to Rory. Yes, I'm sure Liz had her cutsey highs where she declared him her handsome snuggle-bunny of a son or whatever but I think it was all about Liz getting comfort from a dependent or Liz feeling good about herself as a mother. Liz just really seems constitutionally incapable of putting others genuinely first.

Not did Liz put Jess on a bus to Luke's, Liz also didn't want to see him during the holidays after being apart for months and Luke knew very well that this was cutting rejection and Jess would need to shielded from such hurt. When Jess is in Stars Hallow, you get the impression that he misses NY but not so much his mother. Even if you think that's just Jess being an asshole, Liz doesn't seem to miss Jess enough to visit him or have him for short visits to NY or to call enough that she's ever noted as an interested party in S3-4. Then, Liz shows no signs of missing him after he left Luke's.

LUKE: What about your son, huh? What about Jess, you talk to him lately? You notice he's not even here?

LIZ: Yeah, he sent me a letter. He's with his father.

LUKE: That's it? That's the extent of the contact?

I also don't get the impression that Liz instilled Jess with a feeling of love or confidence.

RORY: And why aren’t you going to college?

JESS: Please.

RORY: What? Please what – why is it so crazy?

JESS: Ask my mother, she could give you a couple reasons. Oh, and I’m sure Principal Mertin can chime in with a few good ones. In fact, ask your mother. She doesn’t know me all that well but I’m sure she could improvise a few things.

I didn't really credit Jess's S4-6 improvement after he'd been more or less completely out of his mother's life with Liz. I generally saw it as an indication of how much Liz failed. Apparently, Jess wasn't this screwed up terrible kid to give up on. As I saw it, two years with Luke providing love and support and structure had a transformative effect, even if the effects were kind of delayed for a year of hitting rock bottom. Rory played a generative role too. However, Luke gets the most credit by far, aside from Jess himself of course.

 

It's a small moment, but I find it telling that when Jess comes in during Nag Hammadi and Liz does that thing where she presses her forehead against his and goes on about positive energy bringing all her favorite men to her, if they DIDN'T have some sort of good relationship he would have called her out on her hypocrisy.

See, I have a different read of that scene. First, Liz didn't include Jess in her "favorite men" list.

LIZ: Oh, I'm so excited. My two favorite guys are here with me, drinking, talking…

T.J.: And soon, there will be chili.

[Jess comes in.]

JESS: I forgot something.

LIZ: Oh my God, this is freaky. It's like fate. Jess didn't know we were here. I had no idea that Jess would come by and now look at us together. All the men in my life are drawn here to me. This is positive. This means something. Do you feel it?

So, first, Jess didn't make the favorite men cut. Liz wasn't even considering Jess at all, in her focus on TJ, the boyfriend, and Luke, the savior. And second, I thought Jess wasn't starting any conflicts, including notably Luke's desire for a confrontation that TJ was a loser, because Jess was mainly focused on getting his car fixed and leaving Stars Hallow and all of these people ASAP. Jess was in no mood to resolve any of his conflicts, even if it was just about "call outs" and "insults". Jess's first focus was just to get the car fixed. Subconsciously, I think the ep shows who Jess ultimately values because as much as his brain was telling him to just focus on getting the car fixed and out the town with as little fuss as possible, he did have to have his projecty angry-guilty outburst at Luke that Luke caring so much is the worst because then, everyone who Luke helps just feels horrible for disappointing him and he did have to tell Rory that he loved her and drove away. As ugly as it got in that ep, those were the meaningful relationships for Jess.

Edited February 28, 2016 by Melancholy

[HeySandyStrange]

 

With respect, I would think having a gainfully employed parent with no substance abuse issues, no parade of "gentlemen callers" and who had firm and established house rules of what was to be done and what was expected may have contributed to Rory being "an extremely well-behaved child. Had Jess had that kind of upbringing, who knows how he would have been as a teenager.

 

That was what I was getting at when I said Lorelai was more stable then Liz. For whatever her faults, Lorelai did Rory's needs above her own, something Liz didn't do for Jess. Was that a major factor in what made Rory turn into the well-behaved, well-adjusted person she was? I'm sure it played a big part, but I tend to believe sometimes people have certain personality traits that are pretty set, regardless of circumstance. Rory was naturally a quiet, reserved, passive individual. Put it this way, I'm the Rory of my family and I have an older sibling who was the Jess. Same parents, same background, different personalities, different results. It happens.

Edited February 28, 2016 by HeySandyStrange

[shron17]

That seems like a low bar in terms of parenting.

Like I said, I'm not nominating Liz for parent of the year.  But I don't think it's realistic at all to assume that Jess was able to turn himself around only because of the year and a half he spent with Luke and not at all because of his first 17 years when Liz was his only parent.  And I think Luke heavily implied this in Driving Miss Gilmore when he reassured Liz that Jess turned out okay.

 

I am unfamiliar with the GED process, but was there some reason why Jess could not have done a GED while living in Stars Hollow and not go back to the local school?

I'm not familiar with the GED process either, but if Jess had come up with such a plan and wanted to continue living at Luke's I assume that would have been up to Luke.  And no, I don't believe it was up to Luke to come up with an alternative plan after Jess broke their agreement by not graduating and refusing to go back to school.  Jess made that a moot point anyway by leaving the next day without saying goodbye or thanks. I still think it would have been good for Jess to go back and do another year, teach him some humility and take responsibility for his mistakes.

 

I'm sure it played a big part, but I tend to believe sometimes people have certain personality traits that are pretty set, regardless of circumstance.

I agree, which is just one reason why I hate the idea of even trying to judge how good of a parent someone is/was.  There are so many different factors and kids can have such different needs that it's really impossible to know exactly what made a difference and what didn't. 

Edited February 28, 2016 by shron17

[tennisgurl]

I wonder if they did that on purpose, to an extent, making Liz a kind of "bad single mom" to Lorelei's "good single mom". Both are quirky, slightly flighty, single moms with complicated dating lives and absentee baby daddies, but their parenting styles are very different. Lorelai tries to keep her dating life away from Rory, while it seems like Liz never really bothered to separate her boyfriends from Jess. Liz had a sporadic at best employment record, while Lorelei has always had a job, and eventually opened a successful business. Lorelei occasionally did lay down the law with Rory, while Liz seemed to brush off Jesse's problems, then pawned him off on Luke when he got to be too much trouble.  

 

Now, I am not saying Lorelei was a perfect mom, nor am I saying that Liz was a terrible mom. I do not think Liz was in any way malicious or abusive, and I do not think Lorelei was a saint. I just wonder if the show was sometimes drawing parallels between the two. Because, while I think they both meant well, Lorelei was certainly a better parent than Liz. 

[AllyB]

Going by Liz's personality, which was in the flighty ditz zone, I tend to think she was in the Friends with my kid, permissive school of parenting. Not unlike how Lorelai raised Rory, only Lorelai was more stable and blessed with an extremely well-behaved child.

Lorelai was far from a permissive parent, she was authoritative. She valued the person who Rory was and they very much became friends but she also laid down clear boundaries and didn't take it well when Rory crossed them. Yes Rory was a very easy child to parent as she had a huge 'people pleaser' streak to her natural personality. And certainly Lorelai would have had a harder time with a more strong-willed, stubborn child. But for all her faults, Lorelai was a very good parent for the most part (she really should have provided better meals for her child though) and would have been able to find a way to parent a child like Jess that would have helped him realise his potential and be generally content in life.

Edited February 28, 2016 by AllyB

[Aloeonatable]

 

Logan was self-assured where Tristan was insecure, affable where Tristan was angry, smooth where Tristan was jagged. And Logan had the grades, the writing talent, and the test scores to get into Yale. Tristan had none of that.

 

 

In fairness, we only saw Tristan as a teenager in high school, while Logan was already 23 or 24 the first time we met him.

 

I disagree with the first quote, and agree with the second, which was my point. We really didn't know what Logan was like in HS, nor did we find out how Tristan turned out. Basically, the had both prep school troubles which caused them to be kicked out. They were both similar in looks, came from wealthy families (Logan's probably more wealthy then Tristan's), smart, & IMO annoying. 

 

 

I believe you can love your kid and still be a really, really, bad parent. I think that's what Jess finally resigned himself to accept. He realized that she was a crap mom, not because she didn't want to be better, but because she didn't know how to be better. Cold comfort, but better than believing your own mother didn't give a shit about you.

 

IA. I picture Jess escaping his mother's life by holing up in his room and reading. I don't blame Liz. Luke did say that their mother died when they were young and their dad couldn't control her. She had no mother role model, nor any boundaries it seems. It is a wonder she wasn't worse.

[txhorns79]

But I don't think it's realistic at all to assume that Jess was able to turn himself around only because of the year and a half he spent with Luke and not at all because of his first 17 years when Liz was his only parent.  And I think Luke heavily implied this in Driving Miss Gilmore when he reassured Liz that Jess turned out okay.

 

I think it's realistic to say that Jess' chances improved considerably once he got away from his mother.  In Driving Miss Gilmore, I think Luke's words to Liz were more about reassuring her in a moment where she was expressing fear over her new pregnancy.  What was he going to say?  "You'll be a much better mother to this baby than you were to your last kid?"  Heck, I think during the episode she says she's going to handle this pregnancy differently by not binge drinking during it, so that gives you an idea of her parenting.   

Edited February 29, 2016 by txhorns79

[TomServo]

Jess may have been smart, but he certainly was not driven.  I have to agree with HeySandy.  Jess' problem was less that he didn't fit into the traditional high school tract, and more just extreme arrogance.  He seemed to think he was better than most people in the town, and for whatever reason, normal rules, like that you have to regularly attend school to graduate, didn't apply to him.   

 

Jess was "driven" when it came to things he was interested in--literature, Rory, he got employee of the month at Wal-Mart...  (Who didn't know they were setting him up to be Rory's next boyfriend the second he dumped out his bag in Luke's apartment and the first thing that fell out was books?)  The scene he had with his dad on the beach let us know that under the Fonzie-is-too-cool-for-this facade he knew deep down he was off the rails but didn't know how to fix it.  Then later we see him after he's found a purpose that interests him and he appears to be on track to be a productive adult.  I've often said that Jess is the poster child for the unschooling movement.

[Mulva]

My UO: 

 

I think Mia's actions in hiring Lorelei as a maid and housing her and Rory in a potting shed were downright criminal.  How the hell does someone see a teenaged girl with an infant and think, "Gee, I could contact her wealthy family and send her back home where she and the baby will be well provided for.  Nah, I'll put her to work scrubbing toilets and let her and the young'un live in squalor."  That's not doing her a favor, it's explotation.  Lorelei should have been in school, not doing grunt work while Rory sat strapped in a car seat.

 

More to the point, why did Richard and Emily allow that to happen?  Or for that matter, why did the townspeople not do anything?  I also don't buy that Lorelei would have lasted more than a few days.  In real life, she would have become quickly disenchanted with cleaning strangers' bodily fluids and come back home. 

Edited February 29, 2016 by Mulva

[readster]

My UO: 

 

I think Mia's actions in hiring Lorelei as a maid and housing her and Rory in a potting shed were downright criminal.  How the hell does someone see a teenaged girl with an infant and think, "Gee, I could contact her wealthy family and send her back home where she and the baby will be well provided for.  Nah, I'll put her to work scrubbing toilets and let her and the young'un live in squalor."  That's not doing her a favor, it's explotation.  Lorelei should have been in school, not doing grunt work while Rory sat strapped in a car seat.

 

More to the point, why did Richard and Emily allow that to happen?  Or for that matter, why did the townspeople not do anything?  I also don't buy that Lorelei would have lasted more than a few days.  In real life, she would have become quickly disenchanted with cleaning strangers' bodily fluids and come back home. 

 

 I agree, I remember years ago, my mother and I went about how there was no way that could have happened. I know TV and movies want to show these people scrubbing toilets and working in crap shacks that would have the local health and BBB shutting them down in a moment. I don't care if it was the early 90s when everything was happening with Lorelai and Rory, but really. Also, it wasn't like E/R didn't know where they were, it was admitted several times that they were living in this pottery shack and living in SH and Lorelai wasn't 18 yet. Plus, how as everyone mentioned how Chris just finished up high school, went to college and dropped out not once, but several times even at CC. Yet, everyone gave him an inch, took him in, helped him find jobs and the only people who were pissed off that it was all Lorelai and Rory's fault was Straube and Francine. I know its a TV show, but when you look at it, you had to take your stupid pills to make the plots worked. Instead of you know, Lorelai living in the hotel itself and paying room and board with her paycheck. At least that would have came off more plausible.