One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[amensisterfriend]

I love you guys for letting me know I'm not alone, especially when it comes to finding that "hilarious" prank so utterly lame :) 

 

  Some random reasons for currently holding the verrrrrry unpopular opinion of preferring S6 to S5:

 

1) I find Logan and his relationship with Rory a lot more enjoyable than I did in S5 overall (Bridesmaids? What bridesmaids? La la la, I can't heaaar you...;)) 

2) We get to see Paris and Lorelai interact at least a few different times without Rory around, and those scenes are pure gold :) 

3) You guys know I'm not a fan of how the Luke/Lorelai relationship was depicted, but I actually think they had better moments (or at least more moments I happened to like!) in that first half of S6 than through the vast majority of S5 overall. 

4) As disappointing as the lack of growth/change post-rift was to many of us, there's no moment in S5 that elicits "awwws!" from me as much as that Lorelai/Rory reconciliation in The Prodigal Daughter Returns :) 

5) We get to see the return of an evolved but still very HIM Jess in S6. He doesn't appear in S5...which, yes, I know for some is a point in S5's favor ;) 

6) Dean does not appear in S6!!! 

7) Zach and by extension Zack/Lane is more likable to me in S6 than S5...or at least less UNlikable to me :)

8) I'm that one fan who likes Beau!  

9) My expectations for S6 are always so amazingly low that I tend to find myself a little pleasantly surprised. Yet somehow part of me keeps expecting to like S5, especially as many fans and critics adore it, so I usually come away disappointed instead. 

10) I have very odd taste :) 

 

Don't get me wrong---I'm not rushing to declare S6 one of my favorite seasons. But as long as I keep the fast forward button within easy reach, I find portions of it a lot better than I used to. S5, if anything, has somehow gotten less awesome for me over time. (Even more unpopular is that S1 has gotten worse for me over time as well, because while S1 is definitely the season during which I most like Luke and has some phenomenal Lorelai/Emily and Lorelai/Rory scenes, the overall tone is so overly cutesy and heavyhanded, Lorelai drives me nuts throughout much of S1, and I just CAN'T with how much Dean and Max there is, but that's just me:) 

[amensisterfriend]

I have a friend---well, more like a good friend of a friend, but close enough :)---who's watching the series on Netflix for the first time! She just finished S5 and at my gentle request (i.e., obnoxious insistence) sent an email with her newbie impressions. I haven't told her any of my GG opinions at all because I didn't want to influence her, so these opinions are all her own though they were in response to a few specific questions I asked. And by "a few," I of course mean about 20 :) Some of her impressions seem quite unpopular, so I figured this might be the place for them Either way, it's always fun to hear from people who are inhaling the show for the first time! 

 

These are mostly paraphrased, though I did quote certain words/phrases, but you'll get the gist: 

 

She's actually pretty torn on the show overall and is watching primarily because she likes the dialogue and finds it very "clever" and witty. (She's a big fan of screwball comedies of the 30s and 40s, which is actually how I sold her on the show!) She actually mentioned more things that bug her about the show than things she loves about it, but did add that "it's addictive"...so I'm pretty sure we've hooked her even if she didn't especially want to be :)   

 

She's forever conflicted between loving Lorelai and wanting to sedate her. 

 

She thinks Luke is a "charmless" bore and that he and Lorelai have no "passion" at all. (I swear that I didn't influence her, you guys!!!) She also wondered if Luke is supposed to be a lot older than Lorelai or if he just seems that way to her because he's  so "schlubby" (heh---her word, not mine), angry and miserable. Interestingly, her boyfriend---who's watched the show with her on and off---likes Luke more than most of the other characters and says he'd be a joyless crank all the time too if he had to put up with Lorelai's self-absorption and nonstop babbling :) 

 

She dislikes all of Rory's love interests---yes, all of them! She was kind of hoping Rory would get together with Marty, actually. (Keep in mind that this poor soul has no idea what's in store for Marty's character in S7!)

 

But here's the supremely unpopular part: If pressed to pick---and you know I ever so politely pressed her---she disliked Dean the least. And this is AFTER she's watched S5 :) She described Jess as "everything I hate about Luke except that he likes books" and views Logan as "arrogant, obnoxious and not as charismatic and debonair as I think the writers want us to think he is" (When I wrote back, I shared my pet theory about Logan being reminiscent of the 'suave', cocky but goodhearted playboys of those 30s/40s films she loves so much, but I doubt this comparison will inspire her to declare that she suddenly likes Logan after all! I do think he gets a little deeper and more nuanced in S6, so we'll see...?!) Dean was "just kind of a lunkhead" but "seemed to heave his heart in the right place" which, by sad default, makes him her 'favorite' ;)  

 

She actually likes that Rory rebelled a bit in Season 5. Rory is her favorite character in general, which is funny since she and I are both...er, just a splash older than Rory ;) 

 

Now here's the part I had to reread twice because my Paris-loving self just couldn't process it at first: "Paris should be committed! She's the most unglued person on a show where more or less everyone is certifiably insane." I'm sure she enjoys Paris despite or even because of that assessment, though, right? RIGHT?! ;) 

 

Back in Season 2 she saw a lot of chemistry between Lorelai and Christopher and "kind of" hoped they'd end up together, but she's over that by now.  If she had to pick one of Lorelai's relationships/significant others (you can tell which questions I inundated this poor woman with!), she'd actually go with...drum roll...Max. So, to recap: her favorites by default were Dean and Max, though she definitely seems to like Max a lot more than Dean. Like I said, I thought it was appropriate to post about this in the unpopular opinions thread ;) (Just a sidenote: Her boyfriend is actually a little Max-ish---he's a professor and even looks SLIGHTLY like Max, so I wonder if that self-consciously influenced her here?! I don't know her well enough to ask, but you guys know I'm endlessly fascinated by how our real life experiences influence our opinions of fiction!) Anyway, Max actually seemed to be among the relatively few GG characters she really liked a lot.  

 

Accordingly, her favorite seasons of the series were the first two. I think Season 1 is actually her very favorite, though I couldn't quite tell from the way she answered the question. As noted above, she liked seeing a "different side of Rory" in S5 but didn't much care for the season overall because of her feelings about Luke/Lorelai as a couple and Logan, who "...I want to punch. I can't help it. And his friends are punchable, too." She thought Season 3 wasn't that memorable and kind of "up and down" for her and that Season 4 felt "awkward, like the writers didn't know how they were going to deal with Rory being away from Stars Hollow and hadn't bothered figuring out anything for her to do at Yale other than sit on the phone with her mom." I guess that's why they had her pop home with "laundry" with such absurd frequency ;) 

 

I asked her about favorite episodes too, of course, but she couldn't recall specifics and didn't seem inclined to look up titles and descriptions...I mean, let's face it, the woman was understandably really sick of replying to my insanely long email by then :) 

 

I gather that Lorelai/Rory scenes are her favorite...which isn't unpopular with me, but may be to some!  

 

And now here comes the scariest line of the whole email: "Doesn't Emily remind you of someone we both know?" Apparently I have an Emily-ish friend, though I seem to be in denial about it because I can't even begin to imagine who this woman is referring to! 

 

I doubt I can convince her to sign up for an account here, but if you guys have any questions to pass along to our newbie, just let me know!  

Edited August 5, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[solotrek]

I mean Paris is the most unglued person on the show for sure. Totally agree with your friend there. Fun to watch, but I'd choose to hang out with every person on the show over her in real life. Even Taylor or Kirk. And there's no way she should be near patients let alone other stressed out  med students or arrogant attendings or power tripping residents. She should have gone to law school and been a lawyer.

[amensisterfriend]

Solotrek, in my head canon Paris ended up a medical researcher---working in an ISOLATED lab where she can apply her considerable intellect without having to interact with her fellow human beings :) 

[Taryn74]

Interestingly, her boyfriend---who's watched the show with her on and off---likes Luke more than most of the other characters and says he'd be a joyless crank all the time too if he had to put up with Lorelai's self-absorption and nonstop babbling :)

 

 

HA!  There is a lot of truth in that.

 

I do often wonder how men see Lorelai.  My hubby thinks she's attractive but that he'd only be willing to be around her if she were muzzled.  He actually by far prefers Sookie to Lorelai.

[amensisterfriend]

See, I think (unopularly?!) that post S3 Sookie can be a lot more annoying than Lorelai---shrill, hysterical, irrational, thoughtless, inconsiderate, etc. Lorelai's the one who gets saddled with the "self-absorbed" label---and I very often agree---but I actually think Sookie can be even more self-absorbed. And she's a terrible freaking business partner. (Instead of some of the romance-related melodrama we got in those last few seasons,  I think it would have been really interesting to see Lorelai and Sookie decide they can't/shouldn't be in business together while struggling not to let it affect their friendship.) The saving grace is that Sookie can cook and bake such amazing food that in my world it would make up for her less appealing qualities :) 

Edited August 5, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[Kohola3]

She's forever conflicted between loving Lorelai and wanting to sedate her.

 

Great line!  So true.

[takalotti]

I do often wonder how men see Lorelai. My hubby thinks she's attractive but that he'd only be willing to be around her if she were muzzled. He actually by far prefers Sookie to Lorelai.

I asked Mr. #s what he thought of Lorelai without reading the other recent male opinions. Keep in mind, I don't think he's watched an episode since the finale aired, but I'm pretty sure he passively watched all of them with me.

He thought she was kind of a caricature and said she could annoying.

He didn't mind her as a character to watch, but wouldn't want to be friends with her. She's too manic and cliquey. "If you're not in her circle, which is basically Rory, good luck."

Afterwards I read him the other recent male opinions. He nodded strongly at Mr. Taryn's comment about Sookie vs. Lorelai. But then I read him ASF's counter arguments and he admitted he forgot about those negative aspects of Sookie. He said at least early on Sookie was more like a normal person, and either Davey or the Dragonfly was the start of the other Sookie. I guess it's just that Sookie's baseline personality was more palatable than Lorelai's baseline, if that makes sense.

The saving grace is that Sookie can cook and bake such amazing food that in my world it would make up for her less appealing qualities :)

Ha! She's Amelia Bedelia!

[dustylil]

asf, I heartily agree about  Sookie being self-absorbed and a terrible business partner. In the Nitpicking thread the other day, I listed just some of her more unconscionable acts from their catering days to the start-up and running of the Dragonfly. I was going to come up with more, but it gave me a headache :)

I did wonder how much of a personal investment Sookie and Jackson actually had in the Inn, given how cavalier she was about money matters. Of course, as a noted chef she could go on to work other inns or restaurants or as a caterer  if the Dragonfly went belly-up. It would likely just be a blip in her career.  Lorelai, on the other hand, might have more difficulty finding work in a managerial capacity in the New England hospitality industry.

 

As to Paris, given that she overcame the personal difficulties of her teenage and college years to graduate with distinction and that she was all of about twenty-two when we last saw her, I was fairly impressed by her. That said, I too think she (and the world) would be best served if she focussed on research and  had limited exposure to ordinary people with medical issues or those burdened with legal problems - if she pursued her dual interest in law and medicine..

[junienmomo]

She thinks Luke is a "charmless" bore and that he and Lorelai have no "passion" at all. (I swear that I didn't influence her, you guys!!!) She also wondered if Luke is supposed to be a lot older than Lorelai or if he just seems that way to her because he's  so "schlubby" (heh---her word, not mine), angry and miserable. Interestingly, her boyfriend---who's watched the show with her on and off---likes Luke more than most of the other characters and says he'd be a joyless crank all the time too if he had to put up with Lorelai's self-absorption and nonstop babbling :) 

 

This is a wonderful description of both sides of the "Who's worse - Luke or Lorelai?" debate. Choose your camp - they're equally defensible. 

Self-absorbed and babbling fits Lorelai to a T.

 

I will take issue with the term schlubby, because as is proven in S5 and later, multiple times to the delight of JavaJunkies and their screensavers, Luke is not chubby, a key element of schlubby. Neither is he dirty, but there are plenty of hilariously colorful words to describe his unkemptitude and lack of interest in fashion, so knock yourselves out.

Personally I see him as more jaded and sarcastic than angry and miserable, but don't dispute others' assessments. I also attribute most of the loud arguing as stuff guys do, and it's only because he's the most masculine personage in a show with an overwhelmingly feminine tone that it stands out so much. 

 

What's often missed with Lorelai, I think, is her anger at her mother. It's actually pretty much on par with Luke's anger at Taylor's interference with his business, but there's plenty of 'girly' yelling going on there as well. Sadly, she also draws Rory into the battle way too often. 

[Kohola3]

I have always thought that the Festival of Living Art was a really cool idea.  I wonder if that is done anywhere other than Stars Hollow.

[amensisterfriend]

Same here, kohola!

 

Personally I see him as more jaded and sarcastic than angry and miserable, but don't dispute others' assessments. I also attribute most of the loud arguing as stuff guys do, and it's only because he's the most masculine personage in a show with an overwhelmingly feminine tone that it stands out so much.

 

See, I agree that AS-P and others give Luke's behavior a pass as "stuff guys do', but I guess I'm just in the minority who doesn't quite see it that way. Maybe I've just known very different guys, but being "masculine" to me doesn't mean throwing temper tantrums to me at the drop of a proverbial hat, reacting like a jealous toddler, and being so relentlessly negative and joyless. Luke is way beyond just jaded and sarcastic to me and to most people I know, but we all have ways of softening the flaws of the characters we love. Witness the way I can justify my love for Paris despite knowing she's mildly to moderately disturbed and that, like most GG characters, I'd stay away from her in real life :)  

[Aloeonatable]

 

I have always thought that the Festival of Living Art was a really cool idea.  I wonder if that is done anywhere other than Stars Hollow.

 

Laguna Beach Calif. has a Festival of the Masters every summer that I'm sure ASP based the FoLA episode on. It is truly amazing and I highly recommend it. 

[amensisterfriend]

Laguna Beach Calif. has a Festival of the Masters every summer that I'm sure ASP based the FoLA episode on. It is truly amazing and I highly recommend it.

 

"Your enthusiasm...shocks me." ;) (Seriously, I think that event is awesome as well!)

 

Here's another one: While I think Come Home is easily one of the best S5-S7 episodes of the series (is that unpopular?!), I actually didn't care much about Richard and Emily reconciling. Maybe it's because I knew it would happen inevitably anyway, or maybe it's because---in true GG fashion---nothing was learned or changed as a result of their conflict anyway. Or maybe it's because, as much as I often enjoy them as fictional characters, they can be pretty awful :) 

[solotrek]

Emily - My date with Simon was just dinner.

Richard - My lunches with Pennilyn (?) were just lunches.

Emily - OH LOLZ. My bad. Fight over.

Richard - Oh haha. I'm glad we had this pointless fight.

Emily - Let's spend and exorbitant amount of money to renew our wedding vows. We can invite all our friends to this awkward shindig where they can secretly judge how messed up we are.

Richard - OK!

 

I did like the separation, because the lead up to it was good. But goodness, the nothing that it was, was pointless.

[pawneerangers]

You all are too smart for me and know way more about the show, but you were so nice when I posted last time that I figured I would try again. I need to watch this show again so that I can keep up with episode titles and the details I miss. 

 

I love Logan so I like the last three seasons more than most of the people here do. But before anyone yells at me when I say I love Logan I mean that I love him as someone to watch on TV and I thought he and Rory were fun and interesting. Someone said a while back that even when they didn't like him he added an interesting energy to the show and that puts it really well. I don't mean that I think he's some perfect and amazing guy in real life because obviously he's not! I love whoever said that Logan is like a Cary Grant character from the old days because my mom and I still watch those movies all the time and now I will always think about that when I see them. But I disagree that Logan was better in the sixth season. I liked him best in the fifth. And maybe in the seventh except by then he didn't even seem like the same character. 

 

I don't care that much about Luke either way. Most seem to love or hate him so I guess that's unpopular. If I were ranking the characters he's just somewhere in the middle for me. I agree with Amen Sister Friend that he can be a real jerk and I do go through times where I just want him to stop complaining and be happy about something. But he has a very good heart and I liked him around as a friend to Lorelai and Rory. And I also think I agree with the poster who said maybe it just seems like he's got more anger problems than he really does because it's such a cheerful and soft show otherwise. But then I think about how he never directly went after Lorelai for years, told her straight up about April or was up front in his other relationships and I realize that maybe my idea of masculinity is being more straightforward and assertive, like saying what you mean and going directly for what you want, so then maybe Luke isn't that masculine to me. Luke just kind of hems and haws a lot and then freaks. He's a sweet heart but it would be very tough to have him as a boyfriend in some ways. But it is a shame that he and Lorelai didn't have more romantic passion and chemistry. My mom used to like them a lot and then thought it seemed like they didn't even want to be together at all once they finally were. By the end she asked me why they were even bothering to try again since they never seemed happy together in the first place. I told her how you all here think the show runner was crazy and didn't know how to write couples who were happy LOL. 

 

But I went from lurking to posting again because of the mention of Emily and Richard. I wanted to admit that my unpopular opinion is that I was often relieved when they weren't in episodes because they bother me so much sometimes. It just makes me tired and frustrated to watch them and the way they are with Lorelai sometimes.  

 

Thank you for listening! 

[Guest]

Logan is, by far, my favorite of Rory's love interests (with the exception of early Marty, but he was a potential love interest not an actual love interest).  I think he was the best match for her and he showed growth as the show progressed.

[Taryn74]

Logan really grew on me.  I definitely like him a lot more than I did when he was first introduced.

 

An interesting observation of mine - I think sometimes we tend to put television characters in a box (myself included).  Especially secondary characters, it would seem.  We get frustrated when they never "grow" from their experiences, but then if/when they do, we say they're acting out of character.  I wonder why that is?  Is it because we go back to the beginning of a show so many times that a character's "before" is their "normal" and any growth seems strange and out of character?

[amensisterfriend]

Emily - My date with Simon was just dinner.
Richard - My lunches with Pennilyn (?) were just lunches.
Emily - OH LOLZ. My bad. Fight over.
Richard - Oh haha. I'm glad we had this pointless fight.
Emily - Let's spend and exorbitant amount of money to renew our wedding vows. We can invite all our friends to this awkward shindig where they can secretly judge how messed up we are.
Richard - OK!

 

Ha!!!

 

 

I did like the separation, because the lead up to it was good. But goodness, the nothing that it was, was pointless.

Wait, a rift or interpersonal conflict on this show that ultimately proved pointless? No way! ;)

 

 

But I went from lurking to posting again because of the mention of Emily and Richard. I wanted to admit that my unpopular opinion is that I was often relieved when they weren't in episodes because they bother me so much sometimes. It just makes me tired and frustrated to watch them and the way they are with Lorelai sometimes.

You're definitely not alone there. Emily in particular is a character who exhausts me more with frequent viewings. She's beautifully acted by Kelly Bishop and often quite nuanced and compelling for the first four or so seasons, but her endless dance of dysfunction with Lorelai is BEYOND exasperating by now! (And, no, I don't think Emily deserves all the blame there...but certainly a decent portion of it!)

 

 

maybe my idea of masculinity is being more straightforward and assertive, like saying what you mean and going directly for what you want, so then maybe Luke isn't that masculine to me. Luke just kind of hems and haws a lot and then freaks.

Ha---this is my new favorite way to describe Luke!

 

 

Someone said a while back that even when they didn't like him [Logan] he added an interesting energy to the show and that puts it really well.

I think maybe that was me...?! I vacillate on Logan A LOT and sometimes the stuff I dislike about him outweighs the stuff that I do, but I do think his presence added an energy to a show that was starting to feel a little flat through parts of S4.

Edited August 6, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[amensisterfriend]

An interesting observation of mine - I think sometimes we tend to put television characters in a box (myself included).  Especially secondary characters, it would seem.  We get frustrated when they never "grow" from their experiences, but then if/when they do, we say they're acting out of character.  I wonder why that is?  Is it because we go back to the beginning of a show so many times that a character's "before" is their "normal" and any growth seems strange and out of character?

 

It's a great point---it seems the eternal writer's dilemma, especially for loner running series: how do you show positive change and growth in the characters and their relationships without growing them right out of what made them distinctive in the first place?! Maybe that's why so many GG characters seemed to either stay stagnant or flat out regress. Meanwhile, the characters who weren't with us for all seven seasons were the ones allowed to grow---Logan, Jess, and...well, maybe just Logan and Jess ;) The writers didn't need to come up with arcs for them over seven looong seasons and hence did a far better job. 

Edited August 6, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[dustylil]

I don't think there was any inherent reason for characters not to change and grow  given their life experiences in the show - beyond the writers and showrunners apparent view of them as already close to perfection. I thought this was particularly the case concerning Rory.  After all, why couldn't  she have even momentarily reflected on the pain she and Dean brought to Lindsay during their adulterous affair when she was angry at Logan for his perceived infidelity with the bridesmaids? If Rory was not in any way to be punished for her behaviour (beyond that luxury European tour), then surely she could have examined her own earlier conduct and found it wanting.  But no, she was simply the victim of a cad.

Edited August 7, 2015 by dustylil

[amensisterfriend]

What are your unpopular/borderline bizarre opinions related to couplings that never actually existed on the show?! Feel free to be as delightfully weird as possible since no one is judged and mocked here :) These don't even have to be couples you truly, seriously wanted to see on screen---just fun ideas! A few of mine:

 

1. Jess and Paris would have been a truly AMAZING couple...well, either that or their dysfunction would have been epic and therefore highly compelling to watch in a-can't-look-away-from-the-trainwreck sort of way ;) 

 

2. Luke and Gypsy were super compatible and would have been fun to watch while also a couple who I think realistically could have worked very well in the long term  

 

3. I would have loved to see Michel/Taylor, if only for a few episodes :) Imagine the potential for comedic gold there! 

 

4. Since Paris liked older guys, why not Paris/Digger?! They're both bright, quick witted and highly neurotic. And think of the awesomely awkward conversations between Lorelai/Paris and even Rory/Paris that would result! 

 

5. I really wish Lane had ended up with Brian instead of Zack 

 

6. At first I resisted the at one time popular "joke" among fans that Dean had more chemistry with Lorelai than with Rory but, you guys, I can't NOT see it now! 

 

7. I sort of like the idea of Logan with a really sweet, shy, endearingly awkward but super smart girl like Tanna 

 

8. While Emily was single, why not a fling with Finn?! I could see her carefully looking up "cougar" and deciding it was a trend she should try to follow now that she was "free" :) And maybe Finn fell so hard for older women that he then began an affair with Pennilyn Lott or even our Miss Patty...

 

I know, I know...I'm giving you guys---and myself!---nightmares here, but this was so much fun that I couldn't resist :) 

Edited August 7, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[Kohola3]

I love marzipan.  That is all.

[Taryn74]

Paris and Jason?  Now that would have been delightful.  He probably would have been as scared of her as he was of Gran.  >.<

[dustylil]

Clearly post-Chilton, perhaps beginning at the end of her freshman year,  but how about Paris and Max - rather than Paris and Grandpa Fleming - for her second big romance? Max could still have the Pygmalion thing going on (as he appeared to have with Lorelai at times) and Paris could have a kindly, mature, sophisticated intellectual as a beau.

Edited August 8, 2015 by dustylil

[Anela]

Paris and gran together, would have been fun to watch. 

I've thought that Paris and Jess would have made a good pairing, and I'm actually liking him more than I used to, until he's really rude to someone again. I love the teasing between him and Luke, and the nicer stuff later on.

 

I felt bad for Lorelai, when Max basically called her self-absorbed, when he still didn't have a key. He reminds me of Dean, in ways: moving too quickly, and I'm surprised he didn't leave her fourteen messages in one night. 

 

I *love* Jess and Mrs. Kim in scenes together. I only know of a few, but he always ends up showing more respect to her, like she scares him. that tickles me. :)

 

Dave is one of my favourite characters. I wish they hadn't lost him to another show. I watched the episode in which Lorelai almost gives away their relationship; when they're discussing how he's going to get home, they actually leave Lorelai amazed, and say, "What? that isn't complicated."

 

I still wish they'd given Lane more to do, and maybe had her be "first" at something, instead of Rory. There are times when I like her more than Rory. She was first to have a baby, but that isn't what I mean. She was a smart, attractive girl.

 

Mrs. Kim and gran... that would be another scene I'd like to see. 

Edited August 12, 2015 by Anela

[solotrek]

I felt bad for Lorelai, when Max basically called her self-absorbed, when he still didn't have a key. He reminds me of Dean, in ways: moving too quickly, and I'm surprised he didn't leave her fourteen messages in one night.

 

Weren't they a few days from getting married at that point though? It does make sense why he'd be so upset, it was pretty clear that she wasn't taking their relationship as seriously as he was and they were going to be husband and wife in a few days. Granted, that relationship was all kinds of messed up timing wise and you're right about moving too quickly. But I get his frustration there. It was one of many signs why they shouldn't have gotten married, and they didn't. So that worked out.

[Aloeonatable]

 

I *love* Jess and Mrs. Kim in scenes together. I only know of a few, but he always ends up showing more respect to her, like she scares him. that tickles me. :)

 

I think everyone was afraid of Mrs. Kim at one time or another. Jess does seem to respect her, more than any other adult. Maybe it was because she put the fear of God in him. I can only recall two encounters between them, but both times Jess was respectful, even calling her "ma'am."

Edited August 12, 2015 by Aloeonatable

[Kohola3]

Mrs. Kim would scare the crap out of me.  That was one tough broad.

[alexa]

In speaking of Gran and Mrs Kim, although Mrs. Kim had her ideas and rules, she was a softie with good intentions inside.  Her actions were based on her culture and protecting Lane.

 

Gran on the other hand, I just hate scenes with her.  I just watched a season 4 episode where even Richard had to yell at her.  I get that she is playing the role she is supposed to play, but I find scenes with her so depressing.  Although Emily can be a pain at times, she is not cruel, so I can't feel glad that she is being picked on by the old woman.  And I always hate how Richard supports her behavior, and only talks back when he feels insulted, not when his wife is being battered by the woman.  Seriously, how is it okay to complain about when dinner at someone's house is going to be served to you, and things like that?

[dustylil]

I generally felt that Richard agreed with Trix's criticisms of Emily and how she ran their home but had learned a long time ago not to voice any himself. Unless, of course, he was personally inconvenienced in any way.

 

Given how Emily was often caustic in her comments on how things were done in Lorelai's home, I felt little sympathy for her when she got the rough edge of her mother-in-law's tongue.

 

I wasn't a great fan of Trix (and her outdated attire gave me pause). However, I did give her credit for not interfering in Richard and Emily's relationship once she had made her disapproval of their marriage known to her son. Indeed, Emily did not seem to be aware of the depth of Trix's feelings on her unsuitability as a spouse for Richard.  Compare that to Emily's meddling in the romantic life of Lorelai and Luke. Of course, if I was to learn that Trix had been financing those lunches with Pennilynn Lott,  I will be compelled to revise my opinion ;)

Edited August 14, 2015 by dustylil

[alexa]

I do agree with you.  I think it just doesn't make for very good tv for me personally to listen to Trix go on and on.  I think with Emily I can tolerate it because she is a main character and does actually bring some humor and other attributes to the show.  Trix is just a b****, and nothing more.  She doesn't add anything to my screen time, so to speak.

[Kohola3]

I do think that Marion Ross did a great job with some of her expressions and the way she delivered her lines.  But I never bought how nasty she could be to Emily in front to Richard and he would laugh it off.

 

However, that nastiness made for my very favorite Emily scenes - when she was drunk instead of planning the funeral. Cracks me up every time.

[dustylil]

Frankly, I never bought that Emily was so utterly dumbfounded that Trix disliked her so much. Exactly, what in all of those disparaging remarks did she miss? It wasn't as if Trix made those comments and then waved them off with "I'm kidding, I'm kidding" - like some kind of a dowager Don Rickles with a tongue of acid and a heart of gold.

[Gilmorefan]

I've been lurking for a while, and finally decided to create an account and join in on all the fun discussions. Here's some of my unpopular (or maybe not so unpopular) opinions.

1. I loved Christopher. I thought that he and Lorelai had great chemistry, and as other people have noted she seemed much much happier around him then anyone else. I was kind of rooting for him during season seven.

2. I didn't hate season six or seven.

3. I actually sort of liked Colin and Finn. Don't get me wrong, they were jerks 99% of the time, but they were actually sort of funny.

4. I don't mind April, and don't really blame her for what Luke did during season six.

Those are just a few :) I have many more

[Taryn74]

Welcome, 'fan!

[amensisterfriend]

Those are just a few :) I have many more

 

Please share them! I'm always so excited to see new fans around here, and I'm not saying that purely because you share my very UO that...

 

1. I thought that he [Christopher] and Lorelai had great chemistry, and as other people have noted she seemed much much happier around him then anyone else. I was kind of rooting for him during season seven.

 

Just like I sometimes think my liking Jess/Rory has far more to do with the chemistry between the actors than the actual writing or anything that AS-P ever intended, I feel the same about Christopher/Lorelai. There's little doubt in my mind that we were all supposed to root for Lorelai and Luke as endgame despite/because of them being so opposite and dealing with so many conflicts along the way, but Lorelai/Lauren Graham just always seemed vastly more fond of/connected to/happy around Christopher to me. (Not to mention having a lot more commonality and natural compatibility with him, at least IMO) I think we were supposed to view Christopher as representative of the life she used to lead and/or could have led if she hadn't come to Stars Hollow while Luke represented who she is and wants now, but the execution failed pretty miserably for me---Lorelai still always lit up like a woman genuinely happy and in love around Christopher, who seemed to instinctively 'get' her even when we were supposed to think they had outgrown each other and who was a million times more pleasant to be around than Luke IM(U)O, while she and Luke were such a flat, incompatible, chemistry-challenged couple for me even before April's arrival that it's a little hard to watch. 

 

I didn't hate season six or seven.

 

I don't hate S6 as much as I used to (damning with faint praise, I realize!) and genuinely like parts of S7 a lot, including the Lorelai/Chris scenes, who I think for a while seemed more genuinely happy together than Lorelai ever had with any of her other significant others. 

 

And, as you mentioned on another thread, I too am less enthused about S1 than most, due largely to the overabundance of Dean and Max and the way Lorelai was depicted as so obnoxiously juvenile, vain and annoying that season (more so than usual!) 

[Sara2009]

In hindsight I think David Sutcliffe sort of saved the Christopher character. I wouldn't necessarily call him a great actor, but he has charisma, which helped me sympathize with Christopher even when I didn't want to.

[JayInChicago]

I think Luke as presented has an underdeveloped sense of adult intimate relationships. Like, obviously he can run his own business and is a gruff but great friend and family member and usually an upstanding citizen (besides his violent outbursts) etc...but what he has is a years long crush on Lorelai. He eventually gets his chance, and he can't really shift out of his crush phase. 

 

Christopher is highly immature and is in lots of respects a "worse" person/man than Luke is--but I think he loves Lorelai for everything she is (usually, anyway, when he's not being a man-baby) and thus has in some respects a more adult relationship with her even while he has many faults Luke doesn't have, ie the whole deadbeat dad thing.

 

Speaking of which, have we ever come to a consensus on whether Lorelai was allowing him visitation type access to Rory?

[dustylil]

JayInChicago, I don't know about any consensus on the subject. However,  I don't think Lorelai in any way limited Christopher having  visitation or any other type of access to Rory throughout her childhood. His lack of interest in his daughter seemed to be more of an issue.  There were references made about him promising to see Rory and then not showing up. Certainly Lorelai did not seem angry (surprised, yes) when he suddenly appeared in Stars Hollow when Rory was sixteen. If he had broken an agreement between the two of them or had defied a diktat from Lorelai herself, I don't think she would have been so  welcoming to him. And  not  just on her parents' balcony.

As well, based on this dialogue from Haunted Leg when Rory was almost eighteen, Christopher himself never thought that Lorelai would - or had in any way before - limited his access to Rory -

CHRISTOPHER: You don’t get to dictate this. I need to talk to you, you won’t call me back, and I did what I had to do. And I’m sorry – but after all we’ve been through, especially over these last few months – you shutting me out is wrong. And you know what hits me the hardest, Lor?

LORELAI: Apparently it isn’t the door on your way out.

CHRISTOPHER: You keeping Rory from me.

LORELAI: What?

CHRISTOPHER: I never, ever thought you’d do that.

LORELAI: I’m not keeping Rory from you.

CHRISTOPHER: Oh really? Then why hasn’t she called me back, huh? I mean, no matter where you and I have been in our lives, my daughter has always called me back – until now.

 

 

[Spartan Girl]

My UO: I didn't like Michele and I really hated how snotty he acted to Luke in season 7 when he came to the inn to ask Lorelei for the letter of recommendation for his custody case for April.

[Smad]

Reading through the first few pages and how many people see Luke's personality as prone to abusive behavior (I personally don't because I don't count any character development after S4 to mean anything) just reminded me of my UO from the last time I saw S7. Lorelai often acted like an abused wife in her marriage with Chris especially towards the end. She was way too clingy, often too reassuring of whatever Chris did/said so as not to rock the boat, Christopher heaping much pressure on her (dating, marriage, children) and often with a drink during most episodes.

 

If someone was watching the episode where Richard has heart surgery for the first time and had no knowledge of the show I wonder what they would take away from the Chris/Lor scene at the end (and during the many phone calls). You have a woman basically begging her husband to be there and support her. She is relaxed and talkative with everyone there (including Luke) but she constantly makes excuses for her absent husband. Then said husband finally comes and swings his d*ck around telling the guy who has been helpful all day to take a hike. And what does the wife do? She steps right to her husband's side, averts her eyes from the other guy and doesn't say a further word to him. Then she begs her husband to understand that she had nothing to do with the other guy showing up. If I were watching this without any knowledge of the show and characters I would be wondering why this hsow falls into the Dramedy category since one of the main characters seems to be in an abusive marriage.

[Gilmorefan]

In hindsight I think David Sutcliffe sort of saved the Christopher character. I wouldn't necessarily call him a great actor, but he has charisma, which helped me sympathize with Christopher even when I didn't want to.

I agree with this. I don't think I would have liked Christopher as much if he were played by someone else.

Then she begs her husband to understand that she had nothing to do with the other guy showing up. If I were watching this without any knowledge of the show and characters I would be wondering why this hsow falls into the Dramedy category since one of the main characters seems to be in an abusive marriage.

With respect, the way you describe Lorelai behaving towards Chris is almost exactly the way she behaves with Luke in Wedding Bell Blues and Say Something. She begs him to understand she had nothing to do with Christopher coming and he reacts angrily.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Gilmorefan

[Smad]

With respect, the way you describe Lorelai behaving towards Chris is almost exactly the way she behaves with Luke in Wedding Bell Blues and Say Something. She begs him to understand she had nothing to do with Christopher coming and he reacts angrily.

With respect, did you actually watch WBB? Chris gets himself drunk and decided to be his everloving douchbaggy self and attacks Luke until Luke decides to remove himself from the situation. And not once in there is Lorelai a focus of his. And in SS I'm completely with him because Lorelai is disrespecting his wish for space and he is nowehere near angry. Not even close to the same thing.

 

Oh and also in WBB Lorelai actually had the stones to tell the guy who is trying to swing his d*ck around to take a hike, namely Chris.

[Guest]

Reading through the first few pages and how many people see Luke's personality as prone to abusive behavior (I personally don't because I don't count any character development after S4 to mean anything) just reminded me of my UO from the last time I saw S7. Lorelai often acted like an abused wife in her marriage with Chris especially towards the end. She was way too clingy, often too reassuring of whatever Chris did/said so as not to rock the boat, Christopher heaping much pressure on her (dating, marriage, children) and often with a drink during most episodes.

 

If someone was watching the episode where Richard has heart surgery for the first time and had no knowledge of the show I wonder what they would take away from the Chris/Lor scene at the end (and during the many phone calls). You have a woman basically begging her husband to be there and support her. She is relaxed and talkative with everyone there (including Luke) but she constantly makes excuses for her absent husband. Then said husband finally comes and swings his d*ck around telling the guy who has been helpful all day to take a hike. And what does the wife do? She steps right to her husband's side, averts her eyes from the other guy and doesn't say a further word to him. Then she begs her husband to understand that she had nothing to do with the other guy showing up. If I were watching this without any knowledge of the show and characters I would be wondering why this hsow falls into the Dramedy category since one of the main characters seems to be in an abusive marriage.

 

I don't see anything in Chris' actions that were abusive though. Thoughtless, reckless, douchey - yes. Abusive, no.  I think by that point, the writers had made Lorelai a doormat for whatever guy she was with. She acted similarly with Luke at times; she wouldn't express her true opinions because she didn't want him to break up with her, leave her, etc.

 

Luke was right to be jealous in WBB; Lorelai hadn't done anything wrong in visiting Chris, but she had lied to him about it.  Chris was right to be jealous in Season 7; Lorelai once again lied to her partner.  In both situations, her actions were fine and understandable, but she lied.  It's a good way to destroy trust.

[Kohola3]

I know it's not quite a mature reaction but since I loathed weak-assed Christopher, I simply cannot watch anything with poor David Sutcliffe.  I know he was playing a part but, well, it's a failing on my part.

[solotrek]

Luke was right to be jealous in WBB; Lorelai hadn't done anything wrong in visiting Chris, but she had lied to him about it.  Chris was right to be jealous in Season 7;

 

To be honest, both guys had reason to be jealous. Lorelai's first actions after leaving Luke (aside from driving and knocking on a door) was having sex with Christopher. Not long after her divorce with Christopher, she's singing "I Will Always Love You" to Luke. With 20/20 hindsight, reinforces the fears both guys had about Lorelai's relationship with the other.

 

I do think Luke's reaction to WBB was more about being hurt and basically being shit on by Emily (via actions) and Christopher (via words) and the drama being involved with Lorelai had(and kind of being lied to) he switched to his default mode which is anger. He was intentionally being hurt by people and he did the right thing in leaving before causing a scene. He never really blamed Lorelai for it, but did address the fact that this might be too much drama for him and he might not want to deal with it. Leaving her behind wasn't that great, but it's not like he abandoned her in the middle of the woods.

 

In Christopher's case, he perceived Luke as a threat even though he himself wasn't there for his in-laws while his father -in-law was in the hospital. And then he turns around and lashes out at Lorelai because Luke was being helpful (the man had to drive around Yale to get Richard's car back home, get back to his own car, and then went and got a bunch of food for everyone including fish which he heard Emily talking about - all while being treated snottily by Emily)? If my father was in the hospital and somebody, let alone my husband pulled that on me? No, GTFO and don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

 

I don't necessarily think either guy was abusive, but I do think one was a bigger douche.

Edited September 22, 2015 by solotrek

[Smad]

I don't see anything in Chris' actions that were abusive though. Thoughtless, reckless, douchey - yes. Abusive, no.

 

And I never said he was abusive. I don't know why but that's the 'vibe' I got when watching certain scenes. I personally thought it was the weirdest acting/directing choice ever. In a lot of their 'confrontations' you have Chris with a glass of alcohol and Lorelai taking note of that. Why? And that scene in the hospital at the end is when I felt that 'vibe' the strongest because of the way Lauren acted (or was directed) in that scene.

[BellyLaughter]

I was always the biggest LL shipper but I ended my time watching the show thinking both Luke and Chris should run for the hills!

However many years have passed and a rewatch on Netflix has only solidified that opinion! Lorelai is a terrible partner....terrible. Both Luke and Chris Stood no chance as long as she remained as self centred and emotionally immature as she was.

[Guest]

I was always the biggest LL shipper but I ended my time watching the show thinking both Luke and Chris should run for the hills!

However many years have passed and a rewatch on Netflix has only solidified that opinion! Lorelai is a terrible partner....terrible. Both Luke and Chris Stood no chance as long as she remained as self centred and emotionally immature as she was.

I've said this before! Luke, Chris, and Logan could all do better than their respective Gilmore Girl!