One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[marineg]

1 hour ago, chessiegal said:

But that's why it is so funny and entertaining! Love the quirky town and their inhabitants.

Love them. Except for a few occurrences when they get to into people's lives. I think Taylor is absolutely bookers but I love it. But they were times when they caused pain to Lorelai/Rory/Luke.

10 minutes ago, stan4 said:

They did it to everyone who displeased them.  Abandoning Luke when that weirdo Brandon worked for him, ganging up against Dean, gossiping about Christopher in season 1 and then being less than welcoming in season 7, etc.

It's different when they go to Fran's for pie instead of going to Luke's. They don't have a town meeting to force Luke to fire him. They just stop going to a restaurant where service is abominable. For Christopher, that was out of line, especially when he moves in. But again, no one have a meeting to deal with how to get rid of him.

I guess my issue is that they made the Jess problem a "government" thing.

 

 

[BTW, I am making myself the devil's advocate, not hating on anyone, because I think you are all right!]

[chitowngirl]

When my son had to go to a township meeting for one of his Scout merit badges, I warned him it would NOT be like the ones in Stars Hollow!

[Taryn74]

14 minutes ago, chitowngirl said:

When my son had to go to a township meeting for one of his Scout merit badges, I warned him it would NOT be like the ones in Stars Hollow!

Ha ha ha!  That's hilarious!

[stan4]

1 hour ago, marineg said:

Love them. Except for a few occurrences when they get to into people's lives. I think Taylor is absolutely bookers but I love it. But they were times when they caused pain to Lorelai/Rory/Luke.

It's different when they go to Fran's for pie instead of going to Luke's. They don't have a town meeting to force Luke to fire him. They just stop going to a restaurant where service is abominable. For Christopher, that was out of line, especially when he moves in. But again, no one have a meeting to deal with how to get rid of him.

I guess my issue is that they made the Jess problem a "government" thing.

 

 

[BTW, I am making myself the devil's advocate, not hating on anyone, because I think you are all right!]

Don't apologize - this is what makes this place fun!!!  

 

Jess showed up S2E5.

The meeting was some time later in S2E8.  That's going from start of school till whenever the heck it's acceptable to festoon the town with pumpkins (and wear heavy coats/sweaters) with continuous Jess problems.

And it wasn't a straight up town meeting - it was an earlier business community meeting thing (the SHBA, SHTB, SHNWO, and SHCCSHC - though admittedly still smells overall of town meeting).

 And they said that the only reason they even had a meeting is that Luke wouldn't deal with the problem.

[marineg]

2 hours ago, stan4 said:

And it wasn't a straight up town meeting - it was an earlier business community meeting thing (the SHBA, SHTB, SHNWO, and SHCCSHC - though admittedly still smells overall of town meeting).

 And they said that the only reason they even had a meeting is that Luke wouldn't deal with the problem.

All of that is synonymous with old Taylor Gobermouch has hurt feelings and needs to drag everyone down into his madness.

And Luke did agree, in his own way, to deal with the problem (that he doesn't admit there is... way to go Luke):

LUKE: I've never bothered anyone. I've kept to myself and I've done the best I could. I pay my taxes, and I help people when I can. I haven't pitched in on the decorative pageantry town stuff because it all seems insane to me, but I don't get in the way of that stuff either.
TAYLOR: What's your point, Luke?
LORELAI: His point is…do you mind?
LUKE: Be my guest.
LORELAI: His point is, that if there's a problem…
LUKE: And I'm not saying there's a problem.
LORELAI: Right, he's not saying there is a problem, but if there it, give him time to deal with it before you storm his diner with torches and pitchforks.
LUKE: Right. What I'm dealing with, being a problem, that I don't necessarily agree that I even have.
LORELAI: Right.
TAYLOR: I didn't get that last part.
LORELAI: Lay off him because what you're all doing stinks.

 

That does bring up an opinion of mine. For all Luke did for Jess, he was grossly unsuited to take care of a 17yo.

Edited May 17, 2018 by marineg

[andromeda331]

11 hours ago, marineg said:

That does bring up an opinion of mine. For all Luke did for Jess, he was grossly unsuited to take care of a 17yo.

 

He really was. Jess had problems and Luke really wasn't prepared to or able to deal with them. What was his plan for dealing with Jess? He did steal. He was a jerk to everyone but Rory. He blew off his classes. When the principal (at least I think he was the principal) talks to Luke about Jess's grades he kind of blows it off. The grades, getting a tutor. Yes, he does end up asking Rory for help. But why was he dismissing the idea? He did what Jess to grade and go to college right? Should he have laid down the law more? Walked Jess to school and sat with him in his classes? Would that have changed anything? I kind of doubt it Jess blew off everything Luke did or said. He broke their deals and had zero respect for Luke. Did he hate him? Think he was pushover? Jess told Rory his only plan was to get out of Stars Hollow. Why didn't he just run away? Or even runaway sooner? The only time I ever seen Jess shocked by Luke was when he told Jess he had to leave.         

Edited May 18, 2018 by andromeda331

[marineg]

14 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

He really was. Jess had problems and Luke really wasn't prepared to or able to deal with them. What was his plan for dealing with Jess? He did steal. He was a jerk to everyone but Rory. He blew off his classes. When the principal (at least I think he was the principal) talks to Luke about Jess's grades he kind of blows it off. The grades, getting a tutor. Yes, he does end up asking Rory for help. But why was he dismissing the idea? He did what Jess to grade and go to college right? Should he have laid down the law more? Walked Jess to school and sat with him in his classes? Would that have changed anything? I kind of doubt it Jess blew off everything Luke did or said. He broke their deals and had zero respect for Luke. Did he hate him? Think he was pushover? Jess told Rory his only plan was to get out of Stars Hollow. Why didn't he just run away? Or even runaway sooner? The only time I ever seen Jess shocked by Luke was when he told Jess he had to leave.         

I agree and disagree. For Luke, he never behaved like a father. And that's what was required of him. He behaved like a uncle who was taking care of his nephew for a couple weeks. Lorelai was right. She was wrong in her behaviour towards Luke and Jess, in that first episode of Jess' and the way she said it, but she was ultimately right when she said he wasn't ready to take it on.

But Luke didn't deal with Jess' problems when he first got to town. Yes, Jess was an ass, but he was a teenager. Luke should have laid down the law, been the adult in the situation. He just kept escalating the situation. Grunt for grunt. There isn't supposed to be deals in a family. You don't say to your kid, "I'll feed you if you behave." 

Yes, Luke was good to him. But not like he should have been. And when he finally kicked him out because he couldn't graduate, nobody called him out on it. They just shrugged and said "you did your best." No. Your best is sticking by your kid when things are hard. Your best is finding a way to get him to graduate. He could have gotten his GED. They could have found a way to find a middle ground. But Luke gave up. He truly needs to communicate with people better. Rachel left because of it. Nicole left because of it. Lorelai left because of it. Jess left/got kicked out because of it.

[Kohola3]

2 hours ago, marineg said:

Your best is sticking by your kid when things are hard. Your best is finding a way to get him to graduate. He could have gotten his GED. They could have found a way to find a middle ground. But Luke gave up.

First of all, it wasn't his kid.  Secondly, what could he have done to make him graduate?  Jess was the definition of incorrigible - what could Luke have possibly done?  I would like to hear some real life scenarios that would have caused Jess to repeat his senior year.

I'd have kicked him out as well.  Little snot.

[marineg]

1 hour ago, Kohola3 said:

First of all, it wasn't his kid.  Secondly, what could he have done to make him graduate?  Jess was the definition of incorrigible - what could Luke have possibly done?  I would like to hear some real life scenarios that would have caused Jess to repeat his senior year.

I'd have kicked him out as well.  Little snot.

Like I said, he could have agreed to have him get his GED instead of a HS diploma. At least he would have gotten a diploma, even if he didn't want to go to school. Jess was smart enough to pass it. 

I just think that Luke was as pig-headed as Jess. Except Jess was a kid who was sent far from his home. Not a grown-ass man who decided to take on a kid even though he wasn't ready.

[Katy M]

30 minutes ago, marineg said:

Like I said, he could have agreed to have him get his GED instead of a HS diploma. At least he would have gotten a diploma, even if he didn't want to go to school. Jess was smart enough to pass it. 

I just think that Luke was as pig-headed as Jess. Except Jess was a kid who was sent far from his home. Not a grown-ass man who decided to take on a kid even though he wasn't ready.

If Jess wanted to get his GED, he should have told Luke that and made the arrangements instead of just skipping school.   Luke probably would have been fine with that, but that's not what happened. Jess was 17 or 18 at that point.  Old enough to not act like a spoiled brat.  If I had made the condition that he could come back if he stayed in school, and he just basically dropped out without telling me, I would probably kick him out, too.  Luke made literally one condition.  Jess agreed to it.  He's old enough to take responsibility for his own actions.

[marineg]

24 minutes ago, Katy M said:

If Jess wanted to get his GED, he should have told Luke that and made the arrangements instead of just skipping school.   Luke probably would have been fine with that, but that's not what happened. Jess was 17 or 18 at that point.  Old enough to not act like a spoiled brat.  If I had made the condition that he could come back if he stayed in school, and he just basically dropped out without telling me, I would probably kick him out, too.  Luke made literally one condition.  Jess agreed to it.  He's old enough to take responsibility for his own actions.

I don't agree. I think Luke should be the bigger person. Its been a few years since I was 18 (not that many...) but we were all a bit stupid. I hated going to school, my teachers were awful and I procrastinated all the time. But I had a family that taught me the importance of a high school diploma. Jess didn't have that. He was a rebellious kid who didn't like school, didn't have friends, didn't have parents, and who figured that making money was more important than studying. At 18, you don't see the importance a diploma will have later in your life. It just seems like a pain in the ass. 

We don't judge Lorelai half as much for getting pregnant, dropping out of HS, getting her GED, and moving to work as a maid, live in a shed at the same age.

[Katy M]

35 minutes ago, marineg said:

I don't agree. I think Luke should be the bigger person. Its been a few years since I was 18 (not that many...) but we were all a bit stupid. I hated going to school, my teachers were awful and I procrastinated all the time. But I had a family that taught me the importance of a high school diploma. Jess didn't have that. He was a rebellious kid who didn't like school, didn't have friends, didn't have parents, and who figured that making money was more important than studying. At 18, you don't see the importance a diploma will have later in your life. It just seems like a pain in the ass. 

We don't judge Lorelai half as much for getting pregnant, dropping out of HS, getting her GED, and moving to work as a maid, live in a shed at the same age.

I get your point, but it's not about being a bigger person. It's not Luke throwing Jess out in a temper tantrum.  It's Luke enforcing the agreement they made.  Which is for the ultimate good of Jess.  

And, it's funny that you are comparing to Lorelai, because while her parents didn't throw her out, and actually were upset that she left, she did leave on her own when she didn't want to live up to their rules.   

[Kohola3]

There is no forcing possible for a kid who refused every attempt at friendship, who said no to every suggestion Luke made, who broke the agreement to graduate in exchange for a roof over his head.  He made the decision to say no - you simply cannot force a kid to go to school who is refusing to do so.  I would like to know exactly what Luke should have said or done?  What exactly does "being a bigger person" change things?  "Being a bigger person" is a pretty nebulous statement - what are concrete examples?

 "Jess - you have to stay in school and graduate".  "No". 

"Jess - you have to repeat your senior year".  "No". 

"Jess - you have to at least get a GED".  "No". 

OK, short of handcuffing Jess to a desk (not that he'd pay attention anyway) what could Luke have done?  If someone is absolutely set on being a jerk, nothing anyone can say or do will make a difference. 

[HeySandyStrange]

15 hours ago, marineg said:

I don't agree. I think Luke should be the bigger person. Its been a few years since I was 18 (not that many...) but we were all a bit stupid. I hated going to school, my teachers were awful and I procrastinated all the time. But I had a family that taught me the importance of a high school diploma. Jess didn't have that. He was a rebellious kid who didn't like school, didn't have friends, didn't have parents, and who figured that making money was more important than studying. At 18, you don't see the importance a diploma will have later in your life. It just seems like a pain in the ass. 

The problem with that in the Luke and Jess dynamic, as I see it, is that Luke didn't didn't get a chance to influence Jess until Jess was at least 16. By that age it is really tough to try to help someone, without having been around in their formative years to try to help guide and mold them. On top of that, Jess was a naturally stubborn and hot-headed individual, not unlike his uncle, except Luke had a relatively more stable childhood. Maybe if Luke had had more contact at an earlier age with Jess, or took him in when he was younger, he might have been able to point Jess in a better direction and they could've formed a closer and more respectful relationship. As it was, it was obvious Jess had made up his mind about what his life was before he even came to live with Luke, and it seemed like they really didn't know each other that well. Tough to be able to turn an almost "grown" teen around at that point who didn't want help.

[marineg]

Honestly, yes. I just think he could have taken a couple days to calm down before kicking out a kid who he knows has nowhere else to go.

[Kohola3]

3 hours ago, marineg said:

I just think he could have taken a couple days to calm down before kicking out a kid who he knows has nowhere else to go.

And then?

[MatildaMoody]

On 5/18/2018 at 1:54 PM, marineg said:

I agree and disagree. For Luke, he never behaved like a father. And that's what was required of him. He behaved like a uncle who was taking care of his nephew for a couple weeks. Lorelai was right. She was wrong in her behaviour towards Luke and Jess, in that first episode of Jess' and the way she said it, but she was ultimately right when she said he wasn't ready to take it on.

But Luke didn't deal with Jess' problems when he first got to town. Yes, Jess was an ass, but he was a teenager. Luke should have laid down the law, been the adult in the situation. He just kept escalating the situation. Grunt for grunt. There isn't supposed to be deals in a family. You don't say to your kid, "I'll feed you if you behave." 

Yes, Luke was good to him. But not like he should have been. And when he finally kicked him out because he couldn't graduate, nobody called him out on it. They just shrugged and said "you did your best." No. Your best is sticking by your kid when things are hard. Your best is finding a way to get him to graduate. He could have gotten his GED. They could have found a way to find a middle ground. But Luke gave up. He truly needs to communicate with people better. Rachel left because of it. Nicole left because of it. Lorelai left because of it. Jess left/got kicked out because of it.

I think it would have been wrong for Luke to behave like a father to Jess. Jess wasn't his kid. Luke knew nothing about raising a kid, and honestly, he wasn't asked by anyone to be Jess's father or even father figure. He was asked as an uncle to allow his nephew to live with him until he finished high school. IMO the problems with Jess really always got worse when Luke tried to parent him by laying down the law and making parental decrees. Like when he tried to get Jess to quit his job and focus on his schoolwork (by offering to give him a raise at the diner and pay for his car insurance), or trying to formulate a plan so that Jess could still graduate. At one point he was even begging Jess to work with him and Jess made it clear that he was not going back to school, no matter what Luke said or did. 

Luke was as good to Jess as Jess would allow Luke to be. 

And while I agree that Luke needed to be better at communicating, Lorelai left because SHE refused to communicate with Luke. She went months making sad faces behind his back, and allowing the town to cover for her. It was like she expected him to read her mind, while she was giving the best poker face, only to melt into sad face the second he wasn't looking. She talked to Rory and Sookie about how she was feeling left out, but never said a word to Luke. Then, she explodes on him in the middle of the street and he's just supposed to know that this is his one and only chance to drop everything and elope with her?

Quote

Honestly, yes. I just think he could have taken a couple days to calm down before kicking out a kid who he knows has nowhere else to go.

I will agree that he could have taken a couple of days to calm down, but by that time, what would have been the point? Jess decided that no matter what he wasn't going back to school at all. And considering the way Jess had behaved the entire time he had lived with him, Luke had no reason to believe that Jess was going to change his mind. All Luke had was the deal, and he kept his end. Jess refused (multiple times) to keep his, so Jess had to go. I've had a lot of issues with the Luke character, but honestly, I will always side with him on this, and it seems like Jess eventually did too. 

Edited May 19, 2018 by MatildaMoody

[shron17]

On 5/18/2018 at 5:43 PM, marineg said:

I just think that Luke was as pig-headed as Jess. Except Jess was a kid who was sent far from his home. Not a grown-ass man who decided to take on a kid even though he wasn't ready.

Of course Luke wasn't ready to take on a kid.  Wasn't that the point all along?  And it wasn't far, only an hour away, and Luke never agreed to it.  Liz called and told him Jess would be on a bus to Stars Hollow the next day.  Sure, he could have sent him back but at that point trying to do his best for Jess (which I think he did) was clearly the better option.

4 hours ago, marineg said:

Honestly, yes. I just think he could have taken a couple days to calm down before kicking out a kid who he knows has nowhere else to go.

When they argued about it and Jess refused to go back to school, Luke did say "then you've gotta go."  He didn't say Jess had to be gone by morning.  It's likely Luke thought that they would talk the next day after they both calmed down, and possibly even come to a new agreement.  Even if they couldn't I imagine Luke would have offered Jess some transition time and probably money as well.  Jess was the hothead who left without a plan, without thanking Luke for putting a roof over his head for the past year or so, and without a goodbye.

[Kohola3]

1 hour ago, MatildaMoody said:

Luke was as good to Jess as Jess would allow Luke to be. 

 

Bingo.  Nothing that Luke could have said or done would have made any damned difference.

[marineg]

I concede.

And I'll give you Jess' awful behaviour when he went back to SH for his mom's wedding and asked Rory to run away with him. That's not okay. especially when you know Rory.

[elang4]

38 minutes ago, marineg said:

I concede.

And I'll give you Jess' awful behaviour when he went back to SH for his mom's wedding and asked Rory to run away with him. That's not okay. especially when you know Rory.

To be honest, I have a feeling that sudden idea came about because he found her with Dean. I feel like he wouldn’t have asked her to run away otherwise. It seems to me that he wanted to start things up again with her. He was reading the self help books after all.

[Katy M]

51 minutes ago, elang4 said:

To be honest, I have a feeling that sudden idea came about because he found her with Dean. I feel like he wouldn’t have asked her to run away otherwise

If so, that kind of makes it worse. 

[elang4]

31 minutes ago, Katy M said:

If so, that kind of makes it worse. 

I don’t think it does. I think he just realised he really wanted to be with her but when he saw Dean, it freaked him out.

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, elang4 said:

I don’t think it does. I think he just realised he really wanted to be with her but when he saw Dean, it freaked him out.

Making life decisions based on jealousy and "freaking out" does not a stable person make.

[elang4]

41 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Making life decisions based on jealousy and "freaking out" does not a stable person make.

I still believe he genuinely loved Rory and had Rory not been getting feelings for Dean again at that time, I feel like something could have happened. 

[marineg]

I don't think that he reacted that way because of Dean. I think that he came with that very intention. To have her come and live with him. He came with a purpose, and they don't live in the same town, or close like Yale and SH. If he came wanting to start things up, and probably wanted her to run away with him.

Luke told him that you can't just tell someone you love them and not propose something, have a plan for the future, and just spring it on her and run. I think he came with that very intention.

And I hate that. Because I believe he has started to change from season 3. He thanks Luke for all he did for him, he shows up for his mother, he expresses his sentiments towards his family, he doesn't run away... He not perfect, far from it, but it's an improvement from Season 3 Jess. And that kind of ruined him, took him back a couple of years.

And yes, Dean probably freaked him out. Although he is married and Jess knows it, and shouldn't think that he is still in love with Rory.

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, marineg said:

Although he is married and Jess knows it, and shouldn't think that he is still in love with Rory.

and yet he was, so there is that.

[marineg]

23 minutes ago, Katy M said:

and yet he was, so there is that.

Oh definitely! What I mean is that the only knowledge Jess has of Dean and his relationships is him buying stuff for his wife. He shouldn't suspect that there is anything going on with them.

[shron17]

15 hours ago, marineg said:

I don't think that he reacted that way because of Dean. I think that he came with that very intention. To have her come and live with him. He came with a purpose, and they don't live in the same town, or close like Yale and SH. If he came wanting to start things up, and probably wanted her to run away with him.

I agree.  Jess found himself all alone, once again, and tried to make a connection with the person he thought might still care for him a little.  He just did it in a crazy, impetuous, but romantic way and was obviously thinking only of himself, not Rory.  I hate that he did that too, but do kind of see where he was coming from.  He was back at the bottom and felt as though he had to use anything he could to change (e.g. if you care for me at all you'll run away with me and help me change my life).  Though, I imagine if Milo had agreed and/or was able to do more episodes it might have been completely different.

Edited May 23, 2018 by shron17
added sentence

[marineg]

26 minutes ago, shron17 said:

I agree.  Jess found himself all alone, once again, and tried to make a connection with the person he thought might still care for him a little.  He just did it in a crazy, impetuous, but romantic way and was obviously thinking only of himself, not Rory.  I hate that he did that too, but do kind of see where he was coming from.  Though, I imagine if Milo had agreed and/or was able to do more episodes it might have been completely different.

I do thing it was romantic in the SH realm, and that he truly meant to care for and love her. But if you know Rory just a little bit, you'd know she wouldn't drop out of college because of a guy.

 

Then again.....

[stan4]

17 hours ago, elang4 said:

I still believe he genuinely loved Rory and had Rory not been getting feelings for Dean again at that time, I feel like something could have happened. 

I don't think so.  One (surprisingly) emotionally mature revelation Rory experienced was the fact that Jess was not a stable, reliable guy.  She even explained it to Lane, talking about how he's like this one moment and something else the next.  Talked about how she could have packed all her crap and he would have changed his mind and been outta there.  Granted, the context was comparing him to Dean, but it was consistent with their (R&J's) history and his personality at the time.

 

I do believe that Jess still had a thing for her and it was why he kept popping back up in SH.

[shron17]

1 hour ago, marineg said:

I do thing it was romantic in the SH realm, and that he truly meant to care for and love her. But if you know Rory just a little bit, you'd know she wouldn't drop out of college because of a guy.

That's the thing--it was completely about him and only about her in light of their relationship.  Most desperate pleas fall into that category.  See Lorelai's ultimatum and Chris's proposal to elope in Paris.

[marineg]

6 hours ago, shron17 said:

That's the thing--it was completely about him and only about her in light of their relationship.  Most desperate pleas fall into that category.  See Lorelai's ultimatum and Chris's proposal to elope in Paris.

I agree about Jess. Definitely about him. However, I don't agree for Lorelai's ultimatum and Chris's proposal to elope in Paris.

Lorelai's ultimatum: I do think that it was a very rash decision for Lorelai to do that. They had been having issues and not communicating well, and she pushed it by doing that. But I also think that she knew the relationship was going to the gutter, and she tried a last-ditch effort to salvage it. Like with Jess, it wasn't good and misguided, and came form a place of love and desperation. But I think that in this situation, Luke bears half the blame for, not only contributing largely to the decay of the relationship, but also for not recognizing that Lorelai was so unhappy (both during the entire relationship and at that very specific moment). Contrarily to Rory and Jess, Luke and Lorelai were in a relationship. As much as Lorelai should have communicated her doubts and issues with Luke, he should have be more attentive to her needs and the needs of the relationship. 

Lorelai & Chris' elopement: Again, very misguided. But as much as Jess' and Lorelai' ultimatum of "let's be together now, or never see each other again" came from love and desperation, the elopement came only from desperation. Chris saw how good Lorelai was with GG, saw that he could finally have the family he wanted, first with Lorelai and Rory, and then with Sherry and GG. And Lorelai just came from a relationship where she felt like her partner never really wanted her, never trusted her, never made her a part of his world. And Chris did do that. He wanted that. They both came to that decision together, again, from misguided places, but it was a conscious decision on both part, contrarily to Jess and Lorelai imposing their wants on Rory and Luke.

 

Also, didn't Chris ask Lorelai to marry him at the restaurant? And then they told Rory that they came about a little church in the French country, and that it was raining, and that they just went for it, impulsively?

CHRISTOPHER: Two days ago, in Giverny. It's about an hour outside Paris. It's where Monet had his studio, where he painted the water lilies.
RORY: Oh, so y-you guys just went there to get married?
LORELAI: Oh, no, we just went there to walk around, to see the lilies. And, um, then it started raining, and there was this little church, and, uh...
CHRISTOPHER: It was so beautiful, and we were so happy, and we got married. 

[shron17]

2 hours ago, marineg said:

However, I don't agree for Lorelai's ultimatum and Chris's proposal to elope in Paris.

I'm not trying to place blame for any of these situations.  I only meant that each time the person was asking out of a desperation centered around their own state of mind and gave no thought to what they were asking of the other person.  Lorelai was desperate to get married or end the relationship and gave no thought about whether Luke felt ready to take that step now (before the June 3 date that she'd offered to postpone), let alone jump in the car right that moment.  Chris was desperate to marry Lorelai with no thought that she'd been engaged to another man 6 months ago, let alone that she'd rather wait and have Rory there.

Quote

CHRISTOPHER: So it's taken us this long to work it out, to figure it out, but we're here now. We’re ready. We're finally ready. Let’s do it, let's do it right here in Paris.
LORELAI: No, n-not here.
CHRISTOPHER: Why not?
LORELAI: Well, Rory...
CHRISTOPHER: Rory? Rory will be thrilled.
LORELAI: Honey, I love you, I really do, but... I think we should wait.
CHRISTOPHER: Come on, Lor. We love each other. We belong together. What do you say? Marry me.

In all three cases there was no consideration given to the other person's point of view and a lot of persuasion was used.  The only difference I can see is that Lorelai was engaged to Luke when she asked and Chris was dating Lorelai when he asked.  So in both of those instances saying no would risk their relationship, while Rory saying no only put to risk the possibility of a future relationship with Jess.  It's no big deal if no one agrees--just a parallel I thought of while we were talking about Jess and Rory.
 

Edited May 24, 2018 by shron17

[marineg]

18 minutes ago, shron17 said:

I'm not trying to place blame for any of these situations.  I only meant that each time the person was asking out of a desperation centered around their own state of mind and gave no thought to what they were asking of the other person.  Lorelai was desperate to get married or end the relationship and gave no thought about whether Luke felt ready to take that step now (before the June 3 date that she'd offered to postpone), let alone jump in the car right that moment.  Chris was desperate to marry Lorelai with no thought that she'd been engaged to another man 6 months ago, let alone that she'd rather wait and have Rory there.

In all three cases there was no consideration given to the other person's point of view and a lot of persuasion was used.  The only difference I can see is that Lorelai was engaged to Luke when she asked and Chris was dating Lorelai when he asked.  So in both of those instances saying no would risk their relationship, while Rory saying no only put to risk the possibility of a future relationship with Jess.  It's no big deal if no one agrees--just a parallel I thought of while we were talking about Jess and Rory.
 

Definitely agree on all points. I just think that Jess was extra selfish because, as much as the 2 proposals of elopement were rash and desperate, at least they were based on a real relationship. Jess just showed up after a year of not/barely seeing Rory, and asking her to drop literally everything, from her family, to her home, to Yale which she has worked towards for as long as she can remember.

It seemed out of character since Jess was always supportive of Rory's ambition and her wanting to go to college (contrarily to Dean who, even though he said he was supportive, every time Rory talked about college, he brought up the negative aspects to HIS life).

[Crs97]

I can’t remember if Lorelai even gave Luke a chance to answer her ultimatum.  I remember it as he was still trying to figure out what she was asking when she walked away and drove to Christipher’s.  Did he actually say no, or was he still just trying to get her to slow down and explain what was happening?

[Kohola3]

LUKE: I have to think this through.
LORELAI: No!
LUKE: I have April!
LORELAI: You're gonna have to figure out how April fits into our lives, not the other way around.
LUKE: I'm trying.
LORELAI: Well, try married!
LUKE: Just wait!
LORELAI: No! I'm not waiting! It's now or never!
LUKE: I don't like ultimatums!
LORELAI: I don't like Mondays, but unfortunately they come around eventually.
LUKE: I can't just jump like this.
LORELAI: Well, I'm sorry to hear that. And I have to go. 
 

[stan4]

1 hour ago, Crs97 said:

I can’t remember if Lorelai even gave Luke a chance to answer her ultimatum.  I remember it as he was still trying to figure out what she was asking when she walked away and drove to Christipher’s.  Did he actually say no, or was he still just trying to get her to slow down and explain what was happening?

She gave him multiple chances.

 

And he was aware it was an ultimatum.

[Crs97]

7 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

You're gonna have to figure out how April fits into our lives, not the other way around.

Thanks for the transcript, Kohola.  I would have dumped her for the above-quoted line alone.  Hypocrite.

[marineg]

1 hour ago, Crs97 said:

Thanks for the transcript, Kohola.  I would have dumped her for the above-quoted line alone.  Hypocrite.

Hypocrite, yes. Especially in her behaviour with Max.

However, I think that they are both wrong for doing that. And she is kind of right to say that he needs to find a way to incorporate April in their lives. He completely cut her out of April's life for no good reason. And Anna was awful to her. I get where Lorelai is coming from.

[Crs97]

Anna was awful.  Luke was following Anna’s rules because at that point he had no legal rights and no relationship with April - if he had made demands of his own, he thought  Anna would have severed the relationship and April would have followed her mom out of loyalty.  Why did he think that?  Probably because he had the perfect “mom-daughter -we-don’t-need-her-Dad relationship in front of him in Lorelai and Rory.”  Was he stupid and too yielding?  Yes.  But he had just put off an entire wedding because Lorelai and Rory weren’t getting along.  She would have killed someone who told her his life wouldn’t revolve around Rory.  That line turned me off her completely.

[shron17]

1 hour ago, marineg said:

And she is kind of right to say that he needs to find a way to incorporate April in their lives.

I kind of get where she was coming from.  But I can't get over the fact that it was Luke's daughter, Luke's life and HIS right to take the time he needed to figure out how HE wanted to fit them together.  I can't help but feel Lorelai made it all about her and their relationship.

Also in regards to the ultimatum, why would you want to force someone you care about to marry you when they're obviously hesitating?  Not a good start for any marriage.  I know someone who married after giving an ultimatum (not even an instant one like Lorelai's was) and had regrets for years later.

Edited May 24, 2018 by shron17
ETA

[stan4]

44 minutes ago, shron17 said:

Ig

Also in regards to the ultimatum, why would you want to force someone you care about to marry you when they're obviously hesitating?  

 This is pretty much what Lorelai said to Sookie when Sookie said she didn't understand why they couldn't just work it out.

 

 Ask for Luke figuring things out with April before getting married, I still don't really see what one thing had to do with the other.

And he admits later that he should have let Lorelai help him navigate that whole situation. Which she could have done as his wife. Especially since Anna was so much more willing to let Lorelai be in April's life once they were actually married.

[Kohola3]

12 minutes ago, stan4 said:

And he admits later that he should have let Lorelai help him navigate that whole situation

Hindsight is always 20/20.  He screwed up when withholding April's existence and then not letting Lorelai help.  But she was not helping the situation by hiding her resentment.  They were both idiots.

[shron17]

1 hour ago, stan4 said:

This is pretty much what Lorelai said to Sookie when Sookie said she didn't understand why they couldn't just work it out.

Not really--that was after the ultimatum and after Lorelai slept with Christopher.  I'm talking about the ultimatum itself.

Quote

SOOKIE: Did it have to be? I mean, did the answer have to be no?
LORELAI: No. I mean, I guess I could be married right now to someone who doesn't want to be married to me and doesn't know that I slept with someone two nights before we got married.

 

1 hour ago, stan4 said:

Ask for Luke figuring things out with April before getting married, I still don't really see what one thing had to do with the other.

I don't see why it matters what we think about it, or what Lorelai thinks about it.  It only matters how Luke sees it and how he feels about it and about him taking the actions that feel right for him.  I agree he didn't handle it well, but it still wasn't up to Lorelai to dictate how he should handle it.  To me, her ultimatum was an attempt to take back control of their relationship.  Even when told him she loved him.

Quote

LUKE: We can't just take off and get married.
LORELAI: Why not, Luke? Don't you love me?
LUKE: You know I do.
LORELAI: But I love you, Luke. I love you. But I have waited, and I have stayed away, and I have let you run this thing, and no more. I asked you to marry me, and you said yes.

I know most don't agree, and that's fine.  I just don't think being engaged/married to someone means that they get to control the decisions that you make about your own life.
 

[Crs97]

When you are in a relationship, you decide these things together.  Neither seemed willing to do that.

Imagine this situation happening earlier.  They have set the date and she has found her dress and then tells Luke she wants to postpone until after Rory and she make up.  Instead of how it played out, this time Luke tells her no.  He loves her and they have to get married now because Rory has to figure out how to fit into their family, not the other way around.  Would people here be criticizing Lorelai if she rejected the ultimatum?

[marineg]

3 hours ago, shron17 said:

I kind of get where she was coming from.  But I can't get over the fact that it was Luke's daughter, Luke's life and HIS right to take the time he needed to figure out how HE wanted to fit them together.  I can't help but feel Lorelai made it all about her and their relationship.

 

Yes it was his life and his relationship with April, but he had to be the one to make room for April and Lorelai's relationship to blossom/begin.

3 hours ago, shron17 said:

Also in regards to the ultimatum, why would you want to force someone you care about to marry you when they're obviously hesitating?  Not a good start for any marriage.  I know someone who married after giving an ultimatum (not even an instant one like Lorelai's was) and had regrets for years later.

 

For the ultimatum I agree. but I don't think Lorelai thought he would say yes. I think she thought "I'lll give him one more chance before I break up with him." I think she was already out the door, and just wanted him to stop her.

And still, they were engaged, they had a whole wedding planned. Her asking to elope is not that weird. They cancelled once, and she wants to make sure they go through with it, and not see their life get derailed. She is accepting of April (as she should be), of Luke spending time with his daughter, she is accepting of everything. the only thing she isn't accepting of, it being kept at arms' length from both her fiancé and his daughter. She put it best:

Quote

LORELAI: No, you don't get it. I need it to be over. I need it to be over because I can't take this anymore. Yes, I love Luke, and, yes, I wanted to marry Luke. But I didn't want a life separate from Luke, and that's all he could give me. I don't want that. If I'm gonna be with Luke, I want to be with Luke, and he didn't get it, and I waited. I mean, god, I waited. It's like Luke is driving a car, okay, and I just want to be in the passenger's seat. But he's locked the door, and and so I have to hold onto the bumper, you know? I'm not even asking him to open the door for me. Just leave it unlocked and say, "come in." But no, he didn't do that, so I'm hanging onto the bumper, and life goes on, and the car goes on, and I get really badly bruised and hitting potholes. And it hurts. I mean, it hurts. So yesterday I had to let go of the bumper because it hurts too much. It hurts too much.

 

1 hour ago, shron17 said:

To me, her ultimatum was an attempt to take back control of their relationship.  Even when told him she loved him.

And that quote from Lorelai is why I disagree with your statement. She says: "I just want to be in the passenger's seat. "'I'm not even asking him to open the door for me. Just leave it unlocked and say, come in."

She is not trying to get back control of the relationship. She is trying to find a way back in when she sees that there is nothing left to do.

Also, Lorelai asking to wait to plan the wedding and find a date until things get better with Rory is not the same thing as Luke cancelling a fully planned wedding.

Edited May 24, 2018 by marineg

[Crs97]

13 minutes ago, marineg said:

LORELAI: No, you don't get it. I need it to be over. I need it to be over because I can't take this anymore. Yes, I love Luke, and, yes, I wanted to marry Luke. But I didn't want a life separate from Luke, and that's all he could give me. I don't want that. If I'm gonna be with Luke, I want to be with Luke, and he didn't get it, and I waited. I mean, god, I waited. It's like Luke is driving a car, okay, and I just want to be in the passenger's seat. But he's locked the door, and and so I have to hold onto the bumper, you know? I'm not even asking him to open the door for me. Just leave it unlocked and say, "come in." But no, he didn't do that, so I'm hanging onto the bumper, and life goes on, and the car goes on, and I get really badly bruised and hitting potholes. And it hurts. I mean, it hurts. So yesterday I had to let go of the bumper because it hurts too much. It hurts too much.

If only she had said any little piece of this to Luke himself.

[marineg]

3 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

If only she had said any little piece of this to Luke himself.

It's always easy to say it to someone else than the person it is directed at.

[shron17]

28 minutes ago, marineg said:

She is not trying to get back control of the relationship. She is trying to find a way back in when she sees that there is nothing left to do.

Well, in my opinion, regarding Luke and Lorelai's relationship Lorelai has always been in the driver's seat.  This was mentioned in Summer in the revival when Luke said she set up their lives.  Lorelai was surprised to hear that but didn't deny it either.  When you say now or never you are taking control of that relationship.

32 minutes ago, marineg said:

And still, they were engaged, they had a whole wedding planned. Her asking to elope is not that weird.

Sure, if she had asked if they could elope soon and then been willing to have the conversation that Luke wanted to have about it.  But telling someone now or never isn't asking.