One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[marineg]

34 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

No.  It's a matter of decorum.

Well, I tip my hat to you. I, on the other hand, have sometimes been on bad dates, or regretted some decisions. And on those occasions, I would dish with my friends. But good on you.

[shron17]

1 hour ago, marineg said:

And therefore he should have had a talk with her post-confession. He should have told her that he was hurt. He should have tried to see if they could fix the relationship, or at least end on better terms. Yes, break-ups are not always easy, but for 2 people who loved each other and wanted to get married not 24 hours earlier, there needs to be a conversation. In my opinion.

Yes, I agree that for 2 people who loved each other and wanted to get married 24 hours earlier, there should have been a conversation.  But it should have happened before one party gave an ultimatum and then slept with her ex, not after.  It's a bit of a stretch to blame Luke for their breakup because of his behavior afterwards, in my opinion.

[Kohola3]

27 minutes ago, marineg said:

Well, I tip my hat to you.

I am of the Bambi/Thumper generation. "If you can't say something nice, don't say nothing at all".

Of course, that's in real life. Not for fictional characters.

Edited June 5, 2018 by Kohola3

[marineg]

26 minutes ago, shron17 said:

Yes, I agree that for 2 people who loved each other and wanted to get married 24 hours earlier, there should have been a conversation.  But it should have happened before one party gave an ultimatum and then slept with her ex, not after.  It's a bit of a stretch to blame Luke for their breakup because of his behavior afterwards, in my opinion.

God no. I blame both of them for the break-up. I just think that Lorelai wouldn't have gone with Chris if she knew Luke's feelings post-break-up.

[shron17]

19 minutes ago, marineg said:

God no. I blame both of them for the break-up. I just think that Lorelai wouldn't have gone with Chris if she knew Luke's feelings post-break-up.

Which is Lorelai's whole problem.  She always based her actions on how she "thought" her men felt about her, not how she felt about them.  If she had been honest with herself about how she felt about Luke she wouldn't have become desperate enough to say now or never before she even gave him a chance, because she would have known she wanted to be with him even if it meant waiting a little while longer.  And she never would have gone straight to Christopher, let alone started a relationship with him.

Edited June 5, 2018 by shron17

[marineg]

44 minutes ago, shron17 said:

Which is Lorelai's whole problem.  She always based her actions on how she "thought" her men felt about her, not how she felt about them.  If she had been honest with herself about how she felt about Luke she wouldn't have become desperate enough to say now or never before she even gave him a chance, because she would have known she wanted to be with him even if it meant waiting a little while longer.  And she never would have gone straight to Christopher, let alone started a relationship with him.

I agree about Chris but not Luke. I think that Lorelai was incredibly patient and understanding with Luke, going at his pace, following him, letting him make decisions for their relationship and their future without consulting her or asking her opinions or being receptive of her feelings. Luke behaved selfishly for months. She behave selfishly one single day (if that) when she asked to elope, when she asked he followed her. And he couldn't.

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, marineg said:

God no. I blame both of them for the break-up. I just think that Lorelai wouldn't have gone with Chris if she knew Luke's feelings post-break-up.

I blame both of them too. They both stopped communicating with her. Lorelai should have talked to Luke sooner. Luke should have been talking to Lorelai too.

[shron17]

3 hours ago, marineg said:

I just think that Lorelai wouldn't have gone with Chris if she knew Luke's feelings post-break-up.

My point is that if Lorelai hadn't given the idiotic ultimatum there never would have been a break up at all.  She let Luke think she was okay with postponing and okay with him focusing on April right up until she said now or never and expected him to jump in the car with her.  Sure, she mentioned it in at Martha's Vineyard and again when they went shopping, but they never actually had a conversation about how they both felt about the situation.  Luke had every right to get to know his own daughter in a way that worked best for him, and Lorelai didn't give him a reason to think she was unhappy to the point of leaving until that night.  I don't think there's any reason why they couldn't have worked things out if she had only approached him in a reasonable way, and also realized it was most important for Luke to incorporate April into his life in a way that was comfortable for April (and unfortunately, by extension, Anna) and for him.  Luke had always taken a back seat to how Lorelai wanted to handle things with Rory and he deserved the same consideration around his relationship with his daughter.  After Lorelai showed Luke how little their relationship, and his well being, meant to her by giving him an ultimatum and then going straight to Chris, I don't think Luke owed her anything at all.

[andromeda331]

21 minutes ago, shron17 said:

My point is that if Lorelai hadn't given the idiotic ultimatum there never would have been a break up at all.  She let Luke think she was okay with postponing and okay with him focusing on April right up until she said now or never and expected him to jump in the car with her.  Sure, she mentioned it in at Martha's Vineyard and again when they went shopping, but they never actually had a conversation about how they both felt about the situation.  Luke had every right to get to know his own daughter in a way that worked best for him, and Lorelai didn't give him a reason to think she was unhappy to the point of leaving until that night.  I don't think there's any reason why they couldn't have worked things out if she had only approached him in a reasonable way, and also realized it was most important for Luke to incorporate April into his life in a way that was comfortable for April (and unfortunately, by extension, Anna) and for him.  Luke had always taken a back seat to how Lorelai wanted to handle things with Rory and he deserved the same consideration around his relationship with his daughter.  After Lorelai showed Luke how little their relationship, and his well being, meant to her by giving him an ultimatum and then going straight to Chris, I don't think Luke owed her anything at all.

I do agree with most of this. Lorelai should have talked to Luke instead of ambushing him at the diner and then giving the ultimatum. Luke had no idea she was upset until they talked at Martha's Vineyard. But then that was it. She didn't say anything until months later. I do think Luke should have noticed Lorelai was unhappy. They live together and he knew her. He knew when she was upset. He should have picked up on that but Lorelai also has to say something. She can't pretend everything is okay, tell him its when its not and then be upset when he doesn't know. Luke should have picked up on Lorelai being upset when he told her about introducing April to Jess. Yes, it was only happening because they were going to be in Philadelphia. But maybe when you see your fiancé chuck your bag into the truck its probably a sign she's upset about something. This was another time they should have talked. Lorelai should have told him how she felt about April meeting her cousin but not her dad's fiancée. They could have talked about it. Maybe consider that it was time they meet or talk about where Luke wants to be in his relationship with April when he introduces them. He's been taking it slow but steps to have her used to him being around, getting to know each other and her thinking of him as her dad. I really don't know why Lorelai is so desperate. Yes it sucks to postpone the wedding but if its only a year or two what's the big deal?  Its not like she's dying or pregnant. Luke didn't give her an ultimatum when Lorelai and Rory was on the outs in the beginning of the season and Lorelai wanted to wait before setting the date. Which is good because he really shouldn't have. He would have been a jerk if he had. He knows how much Lorelai loves her daughter and wouldn't want to get married without her. He gave Lorelai his thoughts about in Fight Face and then dropped it. That's exactly what Luke should have done.   

[Anela]

On 6/4/2018 at 10:09 PM, andromeda331 said:

I don't think he would have been so forgiving either. Look at his reaction to Rory showing up with Robert at the Pulp Fiction party he was jealous and wanted Rory to ditch Robert and leave with him.  

It was the same kind of reaction he had to her leaving the house with Jess. 

[shron17]

8 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I do think Luke should have noticed Lorelai was unhappy. They live together and he knew her. He knew when she was upset.

I think he did know.  He just didn't know how to bring it up and what to say to make things better.  I think he just thought if he kept going along and doing his best to make everyone happy it would all work out.  Every time she did say something, he was responsive.  Except about April's gift, which she handled by making fun of him and being bossy instead of just offering her support.

8 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

He gave Lorelai his thoughts about in Fight Face and then dropped it. That's exactly what Luke should have done.   

I agree 100%.  It's too bad Lorelai didn't learn anything from him about how to act when your significant other has a kid.  And it doesn't matter that Luke didn't know about her until after he was with Lorelai.  April was still his daughter and he had a right and an obligation to figure out how to be her dad on his own terms. 

[stan4]

On 6/4/2018 at 8:48 PM, shron17 said:

They didn't.  They had a fight at the restaurant after the lunch with Jess.  Logan wanted to leave, said it was too much drama for him, and Rory wanted to stay so he left her cab money.  Nothing was said about breaking up, and neither contacted the other after.  Rory didn't know Logan thought they broke up until Honor called her at Thanksgiving.  Sure, it was vague, but Logan should have checked with Rory before he went off and slept with a bunch of other girls.

This is exactly correct.

What is weird about this is that the correct way of dealing with this is NOT to just not ever call and give your boyfriend the silent treatment.  So I don't know why Rory was surprised Logan thought they were broken up.

I agree that Lorelai was rash and a bit ridiculous on ultimatum day (AND she should have been honest about NOT being fine), but Luke really did a horrible job of keeping tabs on what was going on in his relationship.  I mean, come on.  There's no way he could/should not have known the whole thing was eating Lorelai up.  So either he didn't care or he was checked out.  Either way, inexcusable.

[Guest]

On 6/4/2018 at 9:25 PM, HeySandyStrange said:

 

Honestly, I wonder if the tables were turned, how relaxed and flippant Logan would've been if Rory had ran out and hooked up with Colin, Finn, Jess, or whatever other smoe she got her hands on? Something tells me he wouldn't have been so forgiving. 

I don’t think she was very forgiving. She got back together with him but passive aggressively punished him until after his accident.

I know Rory is a passive person, but I don’t see going 3 weeks without speaking to your romantic partner and thinking you’re still together (not meaning times when someone is unavailable, etc but when you’re living near each other, could easily talk, etc).

[marineg]

I think we put too much blame on Lorelai for the decaying of the relationship. Yes, she should have opened up to Luke. But Albert Mehrabian did say that human communication is 38% tone, 55% gestures and facial expression, and only 7% the literal meaning of the words. Basically, when referring to feelings, likes and dislikes, what you say is not as important and does not carry as much value as how you say it, and how you carry yourself when you say it. 

Lorelai may have said that she was okay, but if you look closely at her facial expressions, or even her tone of voice, you can clearly see the contradiction between her face and voice and what she actually says. For example, when she offers to postpone the wedding, it was more she was hoping he would say no. And whenever they talk about April or Luke keeping her at arms' length "for" April, her face obviously changes.

Like @stan4 said, when you're in a relationship, you're supposed to know your partner. There was no way he didn't know he was hurting her. And every time she tried to be included, he pushed her away.

And saying that she should have let him find his way with his daughter and that that was the most important thing is correct, but it's also what Lorelai did for months. But can you imagine your partner keeping you completely out of the most important part of his life? She waited patiently and let him get to know his daughter. She never forced her way in. She was a hell of a lot more patient than most people would be (for once). But him getting to know his daughter and rightfully making her the most important thing in his life does not mean in any way that he should have given up on his relationship with Lorelai and stopped making the relationship work. Every relationship needs work; they need work from both people, every single day. Luke completely stopped putting in the work to make his relationship with Lorelai as successful one.

And there is no comparison with Rory. Lorelai never forbade Luke from talking to Rory. She never stopped him from having a relationship with her. Even after they broke up, Rory goes to Luke's alone. She let Rory and Luke's relationship happen and blossom over the years. She let Rory go to Luke's on her own while she was growing up. She let Luke know her daughter. It's easy to say that Luke was a great father-figure to Rory and that Lorelai failed in doing the same thing. You can't force your way into someone's life. You have to be invited in.

Edited June 7, 2018 by marineg

[shron17]

15 hours ago, marineg said:

I think we put too much blame on Lorelai for the decaying of the relationship.

I do agree that Luke was at least 50%, probably closer to 75%, responsible for the decaying of their relationship.  I agree that he didn't handle letting Lorelai know that he had a daughter, and letting Anna and April know that he was engaged, well at all.  But Lorelai was solely responsible for the death of their relationship with her ultimatum, and then going to Christopher, when it quite possibly could have been saved.  And I think she owed Luke a chance to see if they could still fix things instead of deciding for him that they couldn't because he refused to elope when she decided they should.

15 hours ago, marineg said:

And there is no comparison with Rory.

The only comparison I'm making between Rory and April is that Rory is Lorelai's daughter but not Luke's, and that April is Luke's daughter but not Lorelai's.  That is absolutely true.  I think if Luke had told Lorelai she had to start speaking to Rory if she still wanted to be engaged, or if he'd gone to Christopher directly about Rory without going through Lorelai, he would have been just as wrong as Lorelai was when she did comparable things.  I think only the parent has the right to make decisions about their child and their relationship and the other parent.  It was absolutely Luke's right to decide how much time he and April needed to get to know each other alone before including Lorelai in their relationship.  Lorelai could certainly tell Luke how she felt, and even expect him to take her feelings into consideration after an open and honest discussion.  But she chose not to.

[marineg]

9 hours ago, shron17 said:

And I think she owed Luke a chance to see if they could still fix things instead of deciding for him that they couldn't because he refused to elope when she decided they should.

I don't think she owed him anything. Even if the circumstances were different. If someone wants to end a relationship, they should. But in this situation, she owed him absolutely nothing. She waited patiently for him. He had months to get over the shock of being a father, months to learn to have more than one person be your world, months to integrate Lorelai in his life with April, and April in his life with Lorelai. He failed at every turn to make things work. She failed once. Once. A single day when she broke and realised that their relationship was doomed. One single day when she said enough and stopped working at the relationship. Luke gave up months before, and let her do all the work that entire time. She owed him nothing.

And she went to have sex with Christopher to make sure she wouldn't go back to him. Maybe not consciously, but she definitely made that decision. It's as drastic as the "now or never" ultimatum, but it didn't come out of nowhere. It came from months of exhaustion from a bad relationship.

9 hours ago, shron17 said:

The only comparison I'm making between Rory and April is that Rory is Lorelai's daughter but not Luke's, and that April is Luke's daughter but not Lorelai's.  That is absolutely true.  I think if Luke had told Lorelai she had to start speaking to Rory if she still wanted to be engaged, or if he'd gone to Christopher directly about Rory without going through Lorelai, he would have been just as wrong as Lorelai was when she did comparable things.  I think only the parent has the right to make decisions about their child and their relationship and the other parent.  It was absolutely Luke's right to decide how much time he and April needed to get to know each other alone before including Lorelai in their relationship.  Lorelai could certainly tell Luke how she felt, and even expect him to take her feelings into consideration after an open and honest discussion.  But she chose not to.

Sure. The fact is that Luke had no right to intervene in Lorelai's way of dealing with her kid, and Lorelai had no right to intervene in the way Luke dealt with his kid. But I still don't think the situations are not comparable. You are comparing Lorelai to Luke and Chris to Ana. It's the other way around. In this situation, Chris=Luke and Lorelai=Ana. And I'm not talking about gender. Lorelai and Ana raised their daughters on their own. With no one's help. They made their life around their kids. They built themselves up around their kids. They grew as their kids grew up. Luke did none of those things (no putting the fault on him here). He appeared in April's life when she was already a teenager. Lorelai however had been alone with her daughter for 20 years before she started dating him. Rory was an adult. He had no "claim" over her life. Lorelai appeared in April's life at the exact same time as Luke did. Yes, Luke can take his time getting to know his daughter. But they were meant to be married 6 months later. She was going to be her step-mother while she was still at an age when kids need to be raised. She would have been a part of the conversations concerning her future, she would have accompanied her through the most formative years of her life. Luke would have been a step-father to Rory when she was in her 20s. That's not the same situation. She was already an adult.

[FictionLover]

On 6/5/2018 at 4:00 PM, ghoulina said:

LOL, I can't stand Chris either. But it was unfair to him how quickly she got into a relationship with him. Her dust was NOT settled from Luke. It was also super hurtful to Luke. 

Yet, Chris admitted he knew he was her second choice and pushed while she was vulnerable .

[Kohola3]

7 minutes ago, FictionLover said:

....pushed while she was vulnerable

That was his MO.  Think back to the first season when his parents attacked her.  Step one, have sex.  Step two, ask her to marry him.  Rinse and repeat. What a loser. 

[shron17]

2 hours ago, marineg said:

I don't think she owed him anything.

Well, I guess we're going to disagree then.  It seems to me when you propose to a guy you've known a long time you would be willing to consider his needs when he experiences a huge life change six months before the wedding date.  Unless, I guess, getting married is your primary concern.  Then again, Lorelai couldn't be happy with Christopher either, who was more than willing for her to parent Gigi to her heart's content.  I just think if Lorelai had been more in touch with her feelings, been honest with Luke instead of expecting him to read her mind and offered him real support instead of trying to force him to fill her needs, it would have saved all three of them a lot of pain and sorrow.

On 6/6/2018 at 4:25 PM, marineg said:

And saying that she should have let him find his way with his daughter and that that was the most important thing is correct, but it's also what Lorelai did for months.

Luke was seeing April regularly for less than 6 months when Lorelai gave him the ultimatum.  It was still a few weeks away from June 3, their original wedding date.  I'm confused about why you say letting Luke find his way with his daughter is most important, but then say Lorelai had waited long enough.  Obviously for Luke it wasn't enough time.  Or, is it that you think Lorelai's feelings are more important than Luke getting to know his daughter in his own time?

4 hours ago, marineg said:

The fact is that Luke had no right to intervene in Lorelai's way of dealing with her kid, and Lorelai had no right to intervene in the way Luke dealt with his kid. 

Like I said, this is the only comparison I'm making, and am not bringing Chris or Anna into it at all.  Why would I?  Luke and Lorelai are the two people in this relationship, not Chris or Anna.

4 hours ago, marineg said:

She was going to be her step-mother while she was still at an age when kids need to be raised. She would have been a part of the conversations concerning her future, she would have accompanied her through the most formative years of her life. 

Not necessarily.  April already has a mother.  Do you really think if Chris married when Rory was that age and decided to see her more that Lorelai would have welcomed that kind of involvement from her stepmother?  Those are things that could come up in the future but the extent of Lorelai's involvement would be up to Anna and Luke and to some degree April.  Also, the fact that Luke has already missed out on so much of April's parenting make it especially important for both he and April to experience as many of those moments as possible together now.   

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, shron17 said:

Luke was seeing April regularly for less than 6 months when Lorelai gave him the ultimatum.  It was still a few weeks away from June 3, their original wedding date.  I'm confused about why you say letting Luke find his way with his daughter is most important, but then say Lorelai had waited long enough.  Obviously for Luke it wasn't enough time.  Or, is it that you think Lorelai's feelings are more important than Luke getting to know his daughter in his own time?

 

I agree six months isn't that long of time for a daughter you just met. To get used to each other and develop a relationship. So far April only visited him, they went on the field trip together and her birthday. I kind of think April would have been ready after her birthday party for Lorelai to start hanging out with them. But maybe Luke wants to be in a better place with April. That's something Lorelai could ask. Where he wants to be when Lorelai starts joining them for stuff? Or Luke could ask April. She's a great kid but is she ready to start hanging out with her dad and soon to be stepmom or is that too much too soon for her? I don't know if April would feel put on the spot. But it might be good to find how she feels about it. Six months ago it was just her and her mom. Now its she has her dad in her life and their hanging out together, and she's had the focus of all his attention. But he's engaged to a woman with a daughter on her own. Is she ready to start hanging out with her future stepmother and then her soon to be stepsister? Or does she feel like its too much too fast? A new dad, his fiancée and her daughter? Or maybe she's not ready to lose having all her new dad's attention.

Quote

Not necessarily.  April already has a mother.  Do you really think if Chris married when Rory was that age and decided to see her more that Lorelai would have welcomed that kind of involvement from her stepmother?  Those are things that could come up in the future but the extent of Lorelai's involvement would be up to Anna and Luke and to some degree April.  Also, the fact that Luke has already missed out on so much of April's parenting make it especially important for both he and April to experience as many of those moments as possible together now.   

 

Well probably not. Lorelai got all upset at the idea of Rory spending time with Chris and Sherry but Rory helped her see how foolish she was being. She wasn't happy about it but she did let Sherry and Rory hang out together and Rory skip Friday Night dinner. She encouraged Rory to go to the baby shower and be there when Gigi was born. I really don't see Anna ever allowing since she didn't want April and Lorelai to meet even though they were engaged. What was she wanting? April to meet her new stepmom after the wedding? That would go well. Lorelai and April need to develop a relationship too. Lorelai's going to need to know what her role in stepmom to April is going to be. Its hard for Lorelai not to jump in but I think if they talked and after time Luke and Lorelai would find their groove when it came to April. Luke being the parent with Lorelai suggesting ideas to him. Like with the birthday party and swapping out the gift. In theory Anna should be part of deciding Lorelai's role. I don't trust her not to undermine Lorelai or come up with reasons to be difficult.  I don't think Lorelai and Anna are can really be compared either. Anna chose not to tell Luke he was a father while Lorelai told Christopher and he chose not to do anything. I really wish Lorelai had gone off on Anna about that. Anna was a single parent by choice. Lorelai was because Christopher bailed. Go off on her for denying Luke and April twelve years together. 

[marineg]

7 hours ago, shron17 said:

Obviously for Luke it wasn't enough time.  Or, is it that you think Lorelai's feelings are more important than Luke getting to know his daughter in his own time?

I'm in no way saying that Luke should feel like enough time has past and that his relationship with April should be all peachy after 6 months. He can take the time he wants. But you seem to think that just because he is getting to know his daughter, he can put his fiancé aside. I can't even imagine what that would feel like for Lorelai, to see the man you are going to spend the rest of your life with completely cut you out of his life. Part of being an adult means learning to deal with your feelings and relationships. They're not in high school. He should be able to have a relationship with his daughter, and a relationship with his fiancé. But all his efforts were on April. Rightfully. But put some on Lorelai too. Calling and saying that April leaves at 8 so he will see her AFTER 8 is downright mean, and he knew what he was doing. 

I'm not saying that it's emotional abuse here or anything (just a comparison), but blaming someone for not being the bigger person and breaking up because their partners are being emotional jerks is the same as blaming someone who is an abusive relationship and saying "well, you should have spoken up and said something". I think that when you love someone deeply and they act like asses, you always hope that it will get better. And you just end up digging a bigger and bigger hole and you end up not being able to climb out. To me that's Lorelai. Every time Luke purposely pushed her out of his life, she forgave him and waited. She kept saying "we made the decision" when it was actually him. She kept covering for him. She kept seeing that everyone in town knew April, had talked to her, had a relationship with her (to some extant) like Lane. She was being kept out when everyone else was welcome. (btw, everyone in town thought that Lorelai had a relationship with April too; she lied to them there too)

You talk of it maybe being too much on April to get to know Lorelai and eventually Rory. First of all, in no way was Rory ever mentioned as wanting to get to know her. Second of all, April met Lorelai on 2 separate occasions and was fine with her. She didn't act weird or anything. Ana even said that once they were married, she would be fine with Lorelai. So the problems do not come from them. In addition, as much as Luke didn't want his future wife to have a relationship with his daughter, he was fine having his nephew have one. And that same day, he was fine having Rory get to know April as well. Like I said, Luke wasn't saying that he wanted to get to know April outside of all SH distractions. He just wanted to keep Lorelai out.

7 hours ago, shron17 said:

Not necessarily.  April already has a mother.

Yes, and in no way is Lorelai trying to pushed her aside, or am I suggesting she wants to. But being a kid and having a step-mother, she will be in your life. I'm not saying she will make decisions for her, but she may be her mother-figure for half of her life, whenever she is at Luke's. She would be the one to wash her clothes and feed her, maybe help with homework, take her out for ice cream, go shopping with her (maybe not Lorelai but...). She would be an integral part of her life, even if she isn't the one making the big decisions concerning the way she is raised. She would be there as much as Luke would be, once they are married. 

[Kohola3]

2 hours ago, marineg said:

I can't even imagine what that would feel like for Lorelai, to see the man you are going to spend the rest of your life with completely cut you out of his life.

Huh?  At what point did he do that?

[shron17]

6 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I kind of think April would have been ready after her birthday party for Lorelai to start hanging out with them.

I think so too.  Instead of going to Anna on her own, I always wished Lorelai had used the birthday party as a reason to go to Luke and ask him to take her to meet Anna.  He involved her in his relationship with April and now they needed to figure out how to begin to include her in those relationships.  Going to see Anna together would have shown her they were a team and made it harder for her to try to limit Lorelai's relationship with April.  Also, I think at that point Luke could have really used Lorelai's single mom perspective to help him deal with Anna.  I like your idea of asking April how she felt.  Luke was always considerate about not wanting to upturn the life April already had with Anna just because he was there now. 

32 minutes ago, marineg said:

But you seem to think that just because he is getting to know his daughter, he can put his fiancé aside.

No, I don't think that.  And I don't think he did put Lorelai aside.  He went on April's field trip only after making sure they didn't have plans.  He very willingly went shopping with Lorelai when he got back.  He called her at the inn to see if she was coming by the diner and she lied and said she had a staff meeting.  When he didn't see her the next day he went to her house (while she hid in the kitchen and had Patty lie to him) and the inn looking for her and left several messages.  He couldn't find her until she showed up at the diner late and insisted he elope to Maryland with her immediately.  

40 minutes ago, marineg said:

I'm not saying that it's emotional abuse here or anything (just a comparison), but blaming someone for not being the bigger person and breaking up because their partners are being emotional jerks is the same as blaming someone who is an abusive relationship and saying "well, you should have spoken up and said something".

The only thing I am blaming Lorelai for is saying now or never to Luke instead of being willing to have an actual discussion about their relationship.  Luke was willing to have that discussion twice during Lorelai's ultimatum, and again the next morning.

Quote

LUKE: Let's calm down. We don't have to figure all this out now, do we?
LORELAI: Yes, we do, because we've been waiting and putting it off, and I don't want to put it off anymore.

------

Quote

LUKE: Lorelai, let's just talk this through.
LORELAI: No I don’t wanna talk, all we've done for months is talk. I want to do. I want to go.

We all know their conversation ended with Luke saying "I can't just jump like this" and Lorelai walking away.  Luke wanted to talk again the next morning but Lorelai told him it was too late, and had of course already moved on by sleeping with Christopher.  And that seems like a reasonable and adult way to end a relationship with someone you love deeply?  I don't get that at all. 

I think it's possible Luke wanted to discuss how to start including Lorelai in his relationship with April and how it would work after they got married.  It would make sense to have the discussion first instead of eloping and expecting it to work out when they got back. 

1 hour ago, marineg said:

as much as Luke didn't want his future wife to have a relationship with his daughter, he was fine having his nephew have one.

Luke introduced April to Jess because they were in Philadelphia and attended the open house.  He only introduced her to Rory because she was there.  That's not the same thing as having a relationship with a future stepmother who would be a regular part of April's life.

[Kohola3]

3 minutes ago, shron17 said:

And that seems like a reasonable and adult way to end a relationship with someone you love deeply?  I don't get that at all. 

Amen to that.  But that's the Lorelai modus operandi - my way or the highway.  Via Christopher's bed.

Just like that smarmy Logan - "marry me or I'm walking".  

[marineg]

7 hours ago, shron17 said:

Luke introduced April to Jess because they were in Philadelphia and attended the open house.  He only introduced her to Rory because she was there.  That's not the same thing as having a relationship with a future stepmother who would be a regular part of April's life.

Technically, proximity is not a good argument here. April spent a lot of time in SH and Luke didn't introduce her to his fiancé. He would not have gone to Jess' thing or gone without April. He made the decision ahead of time, as he told Lorelai for he left, that she was taking April to meet her cousin. And I agree about Rory, it was unplanned, but he was fine having them meet. He did act awkward or anything that they were.

Look, basically, I agree with you about Lorelai's ultimatum not being a good way to end a relationship. I just think that it came from a place of desperation and that she couldn't put up with Luke cutting her out of his life. You say you don't see it, but I don't know how else you can call not wanting your fiancé to be part of the most aspect of you life and purposely making sure every day that they won't meet.

And I'm not even gonna argue with you about Logan, because in my opinion he did what every person receiving a "no" to a marriage proposal do... and that's walk. How can you keep being with someone who you know doesn't want to spend their life with you? You say Logan could have stuck around and wait for Rory, but Rory could have said "yes I want to marry you, but are you okay with having a long engagement?" It's not the case here. The only thing she offered was a long-distance relationship, which is quite the opposite of what Logan wanted, which was to spend all his days with her. She didn't want to go to SF, she didn't want to get married. And as much as Rory shouldn't have to move to SF just to be with a guy, Logan shouldn't have to not move to SF just for a girl.

And contrarily to Lorelai, Logan didn't say "marry me or I walk." He asked, she said no, and he told her he couldn't be in a relationship that wasn't going anywhere.

Look, we may never agree on these things, and it's fine. We're not meant to all have the same opinions and point-of-views. Can we all agree though that Lorelai fucked up with Chris, the marriage, and the whole relationship?

[Taryn74]

I know at this point we've beaten the dead horse way beyond what's reasonable (LOL) but I think the thing that bothers me the most about Lorelai's ultimatum and what follows, is this -- Lorelai is a hot head.  She's got a hot temper, she gets upset, she reacts badly, she flies off the handle, she screams, she says very ugly things, she hits below the belt....but then after a little bit of time she calms down and is willing to talk through whatever the issue is.  We've seen her act this way with Rory, with her parents, with Chris, with Luke, with Sookie, with Max, with Michel, with pretty much everybody she knows and cares about.  And LUKE KNOWS THIS ABOUT HER.  The way he reacted to her ultimatum (giving her the night to cool off, then going over the next morning to talk it out) WAS EXACTLY THE WAY HE SHOULD HAVE REACTED because he DOES know her. 

There is literally NO reason for him to think her shrieking at him in the middle of town square out of nowhere (from his perspective) was the absolute final word in their relationship.  And that is why I find her actions, not his, unforgivable.  

[marineg]

1 hour ago, Taryn74 said:

I know at this point we've beaten the dead horse way beyond what's reasonable (LOL) but I think the thing that bothers me the most about Lorelai's ultimatum and what follows, is this -- Lorelai is a hot head.  She's got a hot temper, she gets upset, she reacts badly, she flies off the handle, she screams, she says very ugly things, she hits below the belt....but then after a little bit of time she calms down and is willing to talk through whatever the issue is.  We've seen her act this way with Rory, with her parents, with Chris, with Luke, with Sookie, with Max, with Michel, with pretty much everybody she knows and cares about.  And LUKE KNOWS THIS ABOUT HER.  The way he reacted to her ultimatum (giving her the night to cool off, then going over the next morning to talk it out) WAS EXACTLY THE WAY HE SHOULD HAVE REACTED because he DOES know her. 

There is literally NO reason for him to think her shrieking at him in the middle of town square out of nowhere (from his perspective) was the absolute final word in their relationship.  And that is why I find her actions, not his, unforgivable.  

Don't get me wrong, I agree 100% with what you are saying this particular situation was Lorelai's fault. Where I think Luke is wrong is in his behaviour for months before that. That day, he reacted like a saint person. I just think that Lorelai's "shrieking" as you say, is a consequence of that. Did she behave appropriately? Absolutely not. She, like most of the time, acted like a petulant child.

 

This just makes me think of how she behaves with her parents. And one situation in particular: planning the wedding party with Chris. The way she behaves with the party planner is absolutely shocking. In what world does an an almost 40yo woman with a kid and her own business talk to a 60yo man planning her wedding? And she didn't do it once. She did it with her mother, and the next day when Chris was there. I find her behaviour abhorrent most of the time.

[Guest]

I think Lorelai didn’t cheat because in her mind they were broken up. However, I can absolutely see why Luke felt like she cheated. I think “technically” she didn’t cheat because they had broken up. But it wouldn’t feel that way to Luke.

[Crs97]

I can just hear her yelling, “We were on a break!”

 

Frankly, the moment that made me want to tell Luke to run away fast was when she decided it was over because he wouldn’t make a grand gesture.  He had just spent hours tracking down another Jeep with a working engine, haggling down the price, and arranging for Gypsy to put the engine in Lorelai’s car so that she could keep her hunk of junk.  Lorelai was already singing a song to Rory and turned to sing the rest to him.  How in the world does any rational person decide her finishing a song showed more love?  I still don’t know why the tent put her over the top when the car was apparently blown off as no big deal.  Run, Luke.  Run fast.

[Kohola3]

2 hours ago, Taryn74 said:

And LUKE KNOWS THIS ABOUT HER.  The way he reacted to her ultimatum (giving her the night to cool off, then going over the next morning to talk it out) WAS EXACTLY THE WAY HE SHOULD HAVE REACTED because he DOES know her. 

There is literally NO reason for him to think her shrieking at him in the middle of town square out of nowhere (from his perspective) was the absolute final word in their relationship.  And that is why I find her actions, not his, unforgivable.  

THIS!

[Anela]

I guess I'm the only one who sees that she's absolutely done in that scene. She said she needed it to be over, and she did what she knew what kill things for Luke: she slept with Christopher. Not saying she was right, but she wasn't herself for months, sinking under what was going on with Luke and April. 

[marineg]

1 hour ago, Anela said:

I guess I'm the only one who sees that she's absolutely done in that scene. She said she needed it to be over, and she did what she knew what kill things for Luke: she slept with Christopher. Not saying she was right, but she wasn't herself for months, sinking under what was going on with Luke and April. 

100% with you there. Like I said, that's not a great way to break up, but it came as a consequence of months of being left out of Luke's life.

[Guest]

I think she was completely justified in her ultimatum/breakup (though the middle of the street was needlessly dramatic). But I can also see why Luke didn’t see it as a breakup.

They were both wrong about some parts and right about other parts to me.

[Kohola3]

17 minutes ago, marineg said:

...of months of being left out of Luke's life.

At what point did he "leave her out" of his life?  He continued to see her, correct?  She helped him with the birthday party.  She helped him pick out a gift.  He didn't just walk away and shun her.

[Guest]

Just now, Kohola3 said:

At what point did he "leave her out" of his life?  He continued to see her, correct?  She helped him with the birthday party.  She helped him pick out a gift.  He didn't just walk away and shun her.

Again though, I think it’s a matter of perspective. Take the hideous Vineyard Valentine. He says “April will be by from x to  y so come by at z.” He probably thinks “I’m communicating my plans” and she hears “you’re not welcome while my daughter is over.”

Which likely could have been discussed/worked on if Lorelai has spoken up about how she was feeling. Or if Luke had paid attention to her non-verbal clues.

[marineg]

7 hours ago, deaja said:

Again though, I think it’s a matter of perspective. Take the hideous Vineyard Valentine. He says “April will be by from x to  y so come by at z.” He probably thinks “I’m communicating my plans” and she hears “you’re not welcome while my daughter is over.”

Which likely could have been discussed/worked on if Lorelai has spoken up about how she was feeling. Or if Luke had paid attention to her non-verbal clues.

Exactly. I think that's got to be so hurtful to Lorelai. Yes a person can be in the same bed as you, having dinner at the same table as you. That doesn't mean they are with you, connected to you emotions, open to your opinions, that they value you. He asked her to help with the birthday party out of necessity, when he absolutely needed her. Prior to that, she offered to help out, as she had a daughter of her own and knew how to throw a girl's birthday party. He adamantly refused. He kept her out of his life. So yes, they were in the same bed, and (partially) in the same house. But he checked out of her life way before she did.

[shron17]

19 hours ago, marineg said:

Technically, proximity is not a good argument here. April spent a lot of time in SH and Luke didn't introduce her to his fiancé. He would not have gone to Jess' thing or gone without April. He made the decision ahead of time, as he told Lorelai for he left, that she was taking April to meet her cousin. And I agree about Rory, it was unplanned, but he was fine having them meet. He did act awkward or anything that they were.

Since Luke saw Jess infrequently it seems very reasonable that he would want to see him when he was nearby and take April.  Why wouldn't he?  They were there about half an hour and Jess and April likely wouldn't have any reason to interact again for quite some time.  And I thought Luke acted very awkward when he introduced Rory to April, and clearly only did it because he had no other choice.  Even though I think Lorelai and April should have at least been introduced by then, there's really no comparing a brief introduction to a relative Luke sees infrequently to an introduction to someone he sees daily.

19 hours ago, marineg said:

Look, basically, I agree with you about Lorelai's ultimatum not being a good way to end a relationship. I just think that it came from a place of desperation and that she couldn't put up with Luke cutting her out of his life. You say you don't see it, but I don't know how else you can call not wanting your fiancé to be part of the most aspect of you life and purposely making sure every day that they won't meet.

Despite the sad ending, I've watched season 6 in its entirety more than once and have noticed that despite it's flaws, it is carefully written to simultaneously show Lorelai feeling more and more isolated from Luke and show Luke simply doing what he feels he needs to do to get acquainted with his daughter.  If you look more carefully at Luke's words and actions it becomes obvious that completely cutting Lorelai out of his life was never his intention.   I already know most people disagree with me, and I'm fine with everyone having their own opinions.  I guess I'd really just like to be able to state my opinion and explain why I feel that way without having others make assumptions about what I am saying (e.g. that it's okay for Luke to put Lorelai aside).  I'm not going to go into any more of the same details because it's really boring to keep saying the same things over and over.  I would just say, try watching some of these episodes from Luke's point of view and try to keep in mind who he really is.  It's especially interesting when you consider Luke's role model in his formative years was a father raising two children all on his own.

14 hours ago, deaja said:

Again though, I think it’s a matter of perspective. Take the hideous Vineyard Valentine. He says “April will be by from x to  y so come by at z.” He probably thinks “I’m communicating my plans” and she hears “you’re not welcome while my daughter is over.”

Which likely could have been discussed/worked on if Lorelai has spoken up about how she was feeling. Or if Luke had paid attention to her non-verbal clues.

I hadn't watched this scene for a while so I watched again to see how accurate my memory is.  It turns out not very.  Lorelai looked sad and dropped her head as soon as April's name was mentioned, and Luke was clearly aware of that and looked guilty.  He didn't meet her eyes when he said "I guess her mother will pick her up around seven, so..." and readily agreed to what she said about popping up after 7.  I still think he was trying to gauge how much April had to do with Lorelai being upset, and would have listened to any suggestions or objections.  I also don't think it's fair to expect Luke to force the issue when he keeps asking Lorelai is she okay, he doesn't have to go on the trip if they have plans, does she want him to send the bag back etc. and every single time she tells him she's fine.  At this point Lorelai looks sad every time Luke mentions April, but it's not at all clear whether it's Luke's behavior or just the fact that April exists.  And I don't think it's terrible to be upset that your fiance has a daughter, but it's also not fair to expect Luke to change his behavior towards his daughter because Lorelai is sad. 

Lorelai also seemed checked out of the relationship more than once, including the night discussed above when she insisted on leaving the diner to go home alone, and those days right before the ultimatum when she was actively hiding from Luke.  But those who think her ultimatum was justified never address that.  At the very least, I think Lorelai should have told gone to Luke and told him that she went to see Anna and what they said since it could potentially directly affect Luke's relationship with his daughter.

Edited June 9, 2018 by shron17
revision

[Katy M]

15 hours ago, Crs97 said:

I can just hear her yelling, “We were on a break!”

I can't because she wasn't trying to get back together.  She says they were broken up, she moved on (very very very quicky) and never looked back.  At least not immediately.

[shron17]

14 hours ago, Anela said:

I guess I'm the only one who sees that she's absolutely done in that scene. She said she needed it to be over, and she did what she knew what kill things for Luke: she slept with Christopher. Not saying she was right, but she wasn't herself for months, sinking under what was going on with Luke and April. 

So, does this mean her ultimatum wasn't really an ultimatum, that if Luke did agree to elope Lorelai wouldn't have wanted to?  I'm confused about why a person who is done with a relationship would give an ultimatum.  It seems to me more like she was giving him one last chance to give her exactly what she thought she needed.  And that she wasn't open to discussing it with him because she wasn't willing to compromise in any way.

[readster]

Quote

Despite the sad ending, I've watched season 6 in its entirety more than once and have noticed that despite it's flaws, it is carefully written to simultaneously show Lorelai feeling more and more isolated from Luke and show Luke simply doing what he feels he needs to do to get acquainted with his daughter.  If you look more carefully at Luke's words and actions it becomes obvious that completely cutting Lorelai out of his life was never his intention.   I already know most people disagree with me, and I'm fine with everyone having their own opinions.  I guess I'd really just like to be able to state my opinion and explain why I feel that way without having others make assumptions about what I am saying (e.g. that it's okay for Luke to put Lorelai aside).  I'm not going to go into any more of the same details because it's really boring to keep saying the same things over and over.  I would just say, try watching some of these episodes from Luke's point of view and try to keep in mind who he really is.  It's especially interesting when you consider Luke's role model in his formative years was a father raising two children all on his own.

You are right, it was written the way. What many people see however is the that April was meant to do one thing: "Break up Luke and Lorelai". Having it be that April wanted to do a science experiment on who her biological father was. I'm shocked any school didn't go: "I think that is a bit unethical and really doesn't work in a school setting. What are you trying to say? Your mother was slut or sleep with a guy and then be: 'I'm done with you.'." Of course Anna was written pretty consistently. She took EVERYTHING at face value and as much as she was happy to let April express all her wild ideas. Like the body cage just to see what it was like for a person who had to wear one. Her hiding April until she was into puberty because Luke saw a bunch of kids acting up at a dinner for the two of them. Which he basically just said in the spur of the moment, was crap. Even when Anna was going to move on the dime because of her mom's health problems, which later just turned out to be an excuse to get out of town. Made it even worst, hell during the revival, if they would have had April say: "Funny how grandma complains about her health and yet she is in better shape than my mom." Either way, the story just put both Luke and Lorelai at their worst of their traits when as mentioned by Liz in season 7: "you two just needed to talk to each other." Which that was it, they didn't talk to each other. 

[Kohola3]

3 hours ago, shron17 said:

I'm confused about why a person who is done with a relationship would give an ultimatum.  It seems to me more like she was giving him one last chance to give her exactly what she thought she needed.  And that she wasn't open to discussing it with him because she wasn't willing to compromise in any way.

THIS!

[Crs97]

4 hours ago, Katy M said:

19 hours ago, Crs97 said:

I can just hear her yelling, “We were on a break!”

I can't because she wasn't trying to get back together.  She says they were broken up, she moved on (very very very quicky) and never looked back.  At least not immediately.

Sorry.  Should have been more clear that it’s a Friends response to the previous post of whether Lorelai and Luke would think Lorelai’s sleeping with Chris constituted cheating on Luke.

[Anela]

4 hours ago, shron17 said:

So, does this mean her ultimatum wasn't really an ultimatum, that if Luke did agree to elope Lorelai wouldn't have wanted to?  I'm confused about why a person who is done with a relationship would give an ultimatum.  It seems to me more like she was giving him one last chance to give her exactly what she thought she needed.  And that she wasn't open to discussing it with him because she wasn't willing to compromise in any way.

I think if they ran off and got married that night, it wouldn't have lasted. She reached a boiling point, and needed to not be rejected. The issues wouldn't have been solved by putting a ring on her finger that night. Luke later admitted that he used April to push her away. 

She said herself, she needed to stop being dragged behind him. She needed it to stop. He doesn't like ultimatums, and yeah, she knew he wouldn't run off that night and marry her. 

Edited June 9, 2018 by Anela

[andromeda331]

7 minutes ago, Anela said:

I think if they ran off and got married that night, it wouldn't have lasted. She reached a boiling point, and needed to not be rejected. The issues wouldn't have been solved by putting a ring on her finger that night. Luke later admitted that he used April to push her away. 

She said herself, she needed to stop being dragged behind him. She needed it to stop. He doesn't like ultimatums, and yeah, she knew he wouldn't run off that night and marry her. 

It would be nice to know why Luke used April to push her away. Was it fear of marriage? Issues from losing both of his parents? Having one girlfriend never tell him she had his child,  another always coming and going and how things turned out with Nicole. They were doing well before they went on the cruise and got married. Then it all took a (weird) nosedive. Worried he'd mess it up? That might have nice to explore and more interesting.  

[shron17]

20 minutes ago, Anela said:

I think if they ran off and got married that night, it wouldn't have lasted. She reached a boiling point, and needed to not be rejected. The issues wouldn't have been solved by putting a ring on her finger that night. Luke later admitted that he used April to push her away. 

She said herself, she needed to stop being dragged behind him. She needed it to stop. He doesn't like ultimatums, and yeah, she knew he wouldn't run off that night and marry her. 

Luke admitted he used April to push Lorelai away in season 7, which wasn't written by the same people.  I'm not saying it shouldn't be counted as canon, just that I've never been convinced that David Rosenthal who was season 7's showrunner had the same take on Luke and his actions in season 6 as the Palladinos.  Same thing with Lorelai's speech about the car and not being invited in.  Personally, I think she was in the car all along and was sad because she was no longer driving the car (relationship/Luke's life).  But that might just be me.

But, it does make sense what you say about Lorelai needing not to be rejected, and the issues not being solved with a ring on her finger.  It doesn't really explain why she refused any discussion with Luke about it, or why she spent several days hiding from him when they could have been trying to talk things out.  I'm not saying for sure they could have worked it out, but I think Luke deserved honesty from Lorelai and a heartfelt discussion about how they might make it better.  When one person is continually lying to the other (yes, it's okay to postpone the wedding; yes, I'm fine with cancelling everything alone; yes, stay here and I'll just walk home; yes, you should go on April's field trip; no, it doesn't bother me that Anna sent over a bag, etc.) there's no way the relationship isn't going downhill fast.  In fact, it seems to me it was more like Lorelai who checked out of the relationship.  Luke was trying to ask the right questions but wasn't getting honest answers.

[MatildaMoody]

On 6/5/2018 at 4:55 PM, marineg said:

Yes, it was hurtful to Luke. But I will say this: Luke was an ass post-break-up.

They broke up. Lorelai had sex with Chris. Luke showed up 2 days later to marry her and Lorelai tells him she slept with Chris. He just gets in his car and drives all the way to Boston* and punches Chris. Then he meets Lorelai in the street and tells her he is not hurt, that he doesn't care about the break-up, that they weren't supposed to be together. And that's it.

Once Lorelai confessed to sleeping with Chris, Luke was under no obligation to discuss anything. Lorelai slept with Chris to end the relationship once and for all. Once that was done, Luke owed her nothing. 

[Katy M]

4 hours ago, Crs97 said:

Sorry.  Should have been more clear that it’s a Friends response to the previous post of whether Lorelai and Luke would think Lorelai’s sleeping with Chris constituted cheating on Luke.

Yeah, I got that, I just feel like the situations were completely different.  In this case it was the one who declared the relationship over (or wanted a break) doing the "cheating" instead of the other person.  And, the "cheater" (putting it in quotes for what I feel are obvious reasons) didn't go around town trying to cover it up in order to facilitate the reconciliation.

[stan4]

On 6/8/2018 at 7:06 AM, Kohola3 said:

Huh?  At what point did he do that?

By keeping them separated, by putting their relationship on hold, and by yelling and screaming every time Lorelai tried to say or do anything besides nod her head re: April.

3 hours ago, shron17 said:

 In fact, it seems to me it was more like Lorelai who checked out of the relationship.  Luke was trying to ask the right questions but wasn't getting honest answers.

Face it.

Luke accepted Lorelai's "fines" bc it was easy and convenient.   Not bc they were true.

[Kohola3]

1 hour ago, stan4 said:

...by yelling and screaming every time Lorelai tried to say or do anything besides nod her head re: April.

Refresh my memory.  When was there yelling and screaming again?

[shron17]

33 minutes ago, stan4 said:

Face it.

Luke accepted Lorelai's "fines" bc it was easy and convenient.   Not bc they were true.

Trust me.  I've been with someone who wasn't honest about their feelings and it is not pleasant when you find out you can't trust anything they said the whole time you were together.  Asking questions like that opens the door to communicating about how you really feel; putting a happy face on and saying you're fine closes that door.  And what exactly is the alternative?  Should he have refused to accept her answers?  Gone ahead with the wedding even though it felt too soon?  Not gone on April's field trip when she invited him?  Not done things the way he felt was right for him just because Lorelai seemed unhappy?  Maybe at almost 40 it's time for Lorelai to grow up and learn to communicate with her partner, learn real empathy for the other person and figure out how to work as a team so both people get most of ,what they need. There is a lot of work that goes into a relationship, and part of it is figuring out what the other person needs.  But it's at least as important to know your own feelings and what you need and be able to communicate that to the other person.  Why would anyone  marry someone they can't tell when things in the relationship continually cause them pain?  Why would anyone want to marry someone who continually says they're fine when they aren't?