One is the Loneliest Number: Unpopular GG Opinions

[elang4]

Just now, stan4 said:

Jess didn't know that.

She sees him at the diner and is friendly - blows her off rudely.

She tries again at her house - is rude again...then the whole tirade thing happens.

Then she's all Lorelai nutty "I told you so" blah blah.

Lorelai always thinks she’s right though and she always expects Luke to just listen to her. I actually liked that Luke stood up for Jess. I don’t know, I just feel like Lorelai held a grudge against Jess from the start and just wouldn’t let it go.

[ghoulina]

1 hour ago, stan4 said:

Jess wasn't just a jerk to Rory.  He was a jerk to everyone all the time.

And we never ever saw that that changed.  He simply wasn't on screen long enough after his miraculous transformation to really see it.

Anything we did seem him do is simply basic decency.

And I guess I know too many people who have had really sucky childhoods (way worse than what we're given for his) who aren't total dicks to everyone.  

But we all react to situations differently. Some kids continue the cycle, some kids vow to do the exact opposite of their parents....others land somewhere in between. Jess was rotten to pretty much everyone. But I also feel like he wasn't given much of a chance by really anyhow but Luke or Rory. He didn't fit into their idyllic little world. He was a kid. He'd never really had any good examples. He ended up really making up with Luke, who did the most for him out of anyone. He tried with his dad, and his step-mom and sister. He wasn't a jerk to Rory last we saw her. He was polite meeting April. SO many teenagers are surly and rude, even those without shitty upbringings. I think he simply worked through his baggage and grew up. He'll probably always be a bit stand-offish and socially awkward; I think that's just his personality. But I don't see any reason why he'd still be a jerk to everyone. 

[stan4]

5 minutes ago, elang4 said:

Lorelai always thinks she’s right though and she always expects Luke to just listen to her. I actually liked that Luke stood up for Jess. I don’t know, I just feel like Lorelai held a grudge against Jess from the start and just wouldn’t let it go.

Oh, I agree she decided not to like him.  But that was *after* he was rude to her twice.  Rewatch it.  There is nothing unfriendly in the way she treats him in the diner the first day and at her house on day 2.

[elang4]

6 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

But we all react to situations differently. Some kids continue the cycle, some kids vow to do the exact opposite of their parents....others land somewhere in between. Jess was rotten to pretty much everyone. But I also feel like he wasn't given much of a chance by really anyhow but Luke or Rory. He didn't fit into their idyllic little world. He was a kid. He'd never really had any good examples. He ended up really making up with Luke, who did the most for him out of anyone. He tried with his dad, and his step-mom and sister. He wasn't a jerk to Rory last we saw her. He was polite meeting April. SO many teenagers are surly and rude, even those without shitty upbringings. I think he simply worked through his baggage and grew up. He'll probably always be a bit stand-offish and socially awkward; I think that's just his personality. But I don't see any reason why he'd still be a jerk to everyone. 

I agree. Everyone seems to forget Luke is very similar to Jess but people only seems to hate on Jess. I think it’s just a family trait. They don’t like talking about emotions, they’re socially awkward. No one made an effort with Jess so why should he bother to make an effort with them?

10 minutes ago, stan4 said:

Oh, I agree she decided not to like him.  But that was *after* he was rude to her twice.  Rewatch it.  There is nothing unfriendly in the way she treats him in the diner the first day and at her house on day 2.

True. But it was clear from when she heard he was trouble that she had something against him before she even met him.

[ghoulina]

10 minutes ago, stan4 said:

Oh, I agree she decided not to like him.  But that was *after* he was rude to her twice.  Rewatch it.  There is nothing unfriendly in the way she treats him in the diner the first day and at her house on day 2.

No, she wasn't unfriendly. But I almost think she was TOO friendly. Trying too hard. She should have read the room and stepped back a bit. Lorelai has this tendency to think everyone is just going to love her. She's a young mom and super cool, so why not? It was like inviting Dean to movie night. Why WOULDN'T my daughter's crush want to hang out with her AND her awesome mom for the night? I don't know. I'm not excusing Jess. He was rude, no doubt about it. But he didn't want to be there - in town or at this happy, little dinner party. He's an introvert and it probably made him extremely uncomfortable. I think she should have respected Luke more and let him take the lead. She just always thought she knew better. 

[elang4]

Just now, ghoulina said:

No, she wasn't unfriendly. But I almost think she was TOO friendly. Trying too hard. She should have read the room and stepped back a bit. Lorelai has this tendency to think everyone is just going to love her. She's a young mom and super cool, so why not? It was like inviting Dean to movie night. Why WOULDN'T my daughter's crush want to hang out with her AND her awesome mom for the night? I don't know. I'm not excusing Jess. He was rude, no doubt about it. But he didn't want to be there - in town or at this happy, little dinner party. He's an introvert and it probably made him extremely uncomfortable. I think she should have respected Luke more and let him take the lead. She just always thought she knew better. 

Totally agree. I’m not saying Jess wasn’t rude but Lorelai was trying way too hard. She should have read the room in the diner and stopped rambling and she should have realised at the dinner that Jess just wanted some space instead of trying to give him this whole speech of giving everyone a chance.

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, ghoulina said:

No, she wasn't unfriendly. But I almost think she was TOO friendly. Trying too hard. She should have read the room and stepped back a bit. Lorelai has this tendency to think everyone is just going to love her. She's a young mom and super cool, so why not? It was like inviting Dean to movie night. Why WOULDN'T my daughter's crush want to hang out with her AND her awesome mom for the night? I don't know. I'm not excusing Jess. He was rude, no doubt about it. But he didn't want to be there - in town or at this happy, little dinner party. He's an introvert and it probably made him extremely uncomfortable. I think she should have respected Luke more and let him take the lead. She just always thought she knew better. 

I'm an introvert, too, but I wasn't actively rude as a teenager.   I did what my parents wanted me to do for the most part.  I didn't cut school much as I didn't want to be there.  And I didn't commit petty crimes.  I didn't get into fights (except one and the other people started it).  I don't see any of those things as being a direct link to being an introvert.  I did think the fake crime scene was funny and people got a little bit too upset over that.  Didn't seem to be a big deal.

[stan4]

Just now, ghoulina said:

No, she wasn't unfriendly. But I almost think she was TOO friendly. Trying too hard. She should have read the room and stepped back a bit. Lorelai has this tendency to think everyone is just going to love her. She's a young mom and super cool, so why not? It was like inviting Dean to movie night. Why WOULDN'T my daughter's crush want to hang out with her AND her awesome mom for the night? I don't know. I'm not excusing Jess. He was rude, no doubt about it. But he didn't want to be there - in town or at this happy, little dinner party. He's an introvert and it probably made him extremely uncomfortable. I think she should have respected Luke more and let him take the lead. She just always thought she knew better. 

Oh, yeah.  If I met Lorelai in real life, I would be thinking, "This lady is just...too...much."  It's overwhelming and she has that showboaty grandstanding gimme gimme gimme attention queen bee thing going on that I can't stand to be around (since I was a kid - seen it in guys and girls).  

 

Don't get me started on how weird and creepy it was that she invited Dean over for that movie night.  On the surface it seems nice and harmless, but edging in on her daughter's fledgling crush/relationship is just over the top in the "I must be involved in everything" philosophy Lorelai generally subscribes to.

[elang4]

3 minutes ago, stan4 said:

Oh, yeah.  If I met Lorelai in real life, I would be thinking, "This lady is just...too...much."  It's overwhelming and she has that showboaty grandstanding gimme gimme gimme attention queen bee thing going on that I can't stand to be around (since I was a kid - seen it in guys and girls).  

 

Don't get me started on how weird and creepy it was that she invited Dean over for that movie night.  On the surface it seems nice and harmless, but edging in on her daughter's fledgling crush/relationship is just over the top in the "I must be involved in everything" philosophy Lorelai generally subscribes to.

That’s what Lorelai was like though. The first time I watched GG, I loved her and thought how cool she was for a mum. But I recently introduced my mum to GG and in every episode pretty much, she said how annoying Lorelai was and I’m starting to agree. She did try to nestle her way into all of Rory’s relationships. The first movie date with Dean was weird. I can see that maybe she was trying to show Rory she was ok with it but she knows Rory and she should have known that Rory would feel so awkward about it. And then with Jess, she didn’t make any effort even when he got together with Rory. And she didn’t like Logan from the start either but then was jealous that Emily and Richard were going to officially meet him first. I do like Lorelai and I think what she’s achieved in her life, along with bringing up Rory alone, was pretty impressive but sometimes I do find her too full on. I loved her with Luke because he could always say what we were all thinking to her. He was the only one she would really listen to.

[Guest]

Lorelai definitely was trying to hard with meeting Jess.  She always seems to have this arrogance about her where people should love her quirky, loud mouthed, over the top style, and anyone who doesn't is wrong.  

[stan4]

My father says Lorelai says and thinks she did it all on her own and was so independent, but in the back of her mind she always knew she had her parents' money backing her JIC so it was not so hard to be so 'brave.'

[elang4]

2 minutes ago, deaja said:

Lorelai definitely was trying to hard with meeting Jess.  She always seems to have this arrogance about her where people should love her quirky, loud mouthed, over the top style, and anyone who doesn't is wrong.  

And anyone who doesn’t isn’t worth the time and she expects everyone to hate them too.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, stan4 said:

My father says Lorelai says and thinks she did it all on her own and was so independent, but in the back of her mind she always knew she had her parents' money backing her JIC so it was not so hard to be so 'brave.'

It's also a lot easier to make it on your own when you have the privilege of having had a solid educational foundation, social graces, etc. Lorelai was "plucky" but it is much easier to be plucky when your biggest problem in life has been feeling like your parents don't worship the ground you walk on enough.

 Just like Logan in season 7 was having an easier time making it "on his own" when he quit his dad's company.  He still had the privilege of his paid-for education, name, and experiences he wouldn't have gotten if Mitchum were not who he was. 

[stan4]

8 minutes ago, deaja said:

It's also a lot easier to make it on your own when you have the privilege of having had a solid educational foundation, social graces, etc. Lorelai was "plucky" but it is much easier to be plucky when your biggest problem in life has been feeling like your parents don't worship the ground you walk on enough.

 Just like Logan in season 7 was having an easier time making it "on his own" when he quit his dad's company.  He still had the privilege of his paid-for education, name, and experiences he wouldn't have gotten if Mitchum were not who he was. 

Yes. One of my favorite Logan moments is when he admits to all that (so he's not unaware) and explains to Rory that she also comes from a world of privilege.  Totally calls her out.  It's awesome.

This is not an unpopular opinion (I hope), but I really am enjoying discussing this show with y'all.

Just found this forum a couple of days ago and it's just been a delight.

Thank you!

[Katy M]

28 minutes ago, deaja said:

It's also a lot easier to make it on your own when you have the privilege of having had a solid educational foundation,

She didn't even have a high school diploma.  I think it was more unrealistic luck than anything else.  She found someone who was willing to take her in, while giving her employment and allowing her to keep her child with her while she worked. 

Don't get me wrong.  That was really nice of Mia, and Lorelai was grateful and I think she did the best job that she could for her and worked her way up.  But, we have no idea what would have happened if she had knocked on the door anywhere else.

[Taryn74]

26 minutes ago, deaja said:

Lorelai was "plucky" but it is much easier to be plucky when your biggest problem in life has been feeling like your parents don't worship the ground you walk on enough.

This made me laugh way harder than it should have.  

Also, yes.  Lord, yes.

 

I still maintain my own head canon that Liz went into rehab when she sent Jess to live with Luke, and Jess knew about it (but Luke didn't).  I never saw any indication during any season that Jess and Liz didn't have a good relationship.  Not your typical mother/child relationship, because she was trying too hard to be his hippy-dippy pal more than his parent, but she clearly loved him and I believe it was clear he loved her, too, and respected her in his own way.  (After all, as I'm fond of pointing out during these discussions, if Jess didn't respect Liz at all he would have told her to go eff herself when she tried to send him to Stars Hollow, and hopped a bus to NYC or wherever.  He was 17, plenty old enough to take off on his own if he really wanted to.)  

He also gets props from me for being a hard worker.  It's easy to say he was a jerk to everyone because we only really saw him interact with the residents of the snow-globe idyllic town of Stars Hollow (which he clearly did not fit into) but his co-workers - and more importantly, his boss - at Walmart seemed to respect him a great deal.  That says something to me.

[stan4]

You know, I have watched every episode of this show to a degree my wife finds beyond abnormal but I still cannot figure out the details of Emily/Richard's falling out with Lorelai or what the exact problem was.

Sometimes she says she had no voice and was ignored.  Sometimes she says she was suffocated by expectations she couldn't fulfill (though then we hear she's at the top of her class, etc).

 

And, btw, if Chilton is such a muckity  muck "it" school in Hartford, why didn't Lorelai go there?  Seems like Richard knew the headmaster pretty well, etc.

[ghoulina]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I'm an introvert, too, but I wasn't actively rude as a teenager.   I did what my parents wanted me to do for the most part.  I didn't cut school much as I didn't want to be there.  And I didn't commit petty crimes.  I didn't get into fights (except one and the other people started it).  I don't see any of those things as being a direct link to being an introvert.  I did think the fake crime scene was funny and people got a little bit too upset over that.  Didn't seem to be a big deal.

But not all people are the same. Not all introverts are the same. Jess was not only an introvert, but an introvert whose dad bailed on him when he was little, an introvert whose mother barely raised him and continually chose the random men she brought into her life over him. An introvert who was continually shown that he was not wanted, to the point that he was actually shipped off....to some happy, sunny, cutesy little town in New England. I think it was all too much for him. I think things were forced on him too soon and he should have been given more time to acclimate. Again, not excusing his rudeness, but he wasn't the only one who didn't handle the situation properly, IMO. 

[elang4]

6 hours ago, ghoulina said:

But not all people are the same. Not all introverts are the same. Jess was not only an introvert, but an introvert whose dad bailed on him when he was little, an introvert whose mother barely raised him and continually chose the random men she brought into her life over him. An introvert who was continually shown that he was not wanted, to the point that he was actually shipped off....to some happy, sunny, cutesy little town in New England. I think it was all too much for him. I think things were forced on him too soon and he should have been given more time to acclimate. Again, not excusing his rudeness, but he wasn't the only one who didn't handle the situation properly, IMO. 

I totally agree. Luke was giving him space and knew to give him space. When he realised he was causing trouble round town, he lay down the law but he knew Jess was an angry kid. I thought Luke actually did well in handling him. 

[Kohola3]

17 minutes ago, elang4 said:

I thought Luke actually did well in handling him. 

Um, except that Jess totally ignored all of Luke's laws, lied to him to skip school and work, ultimately failed his senior year and then refused to go back so he could graduate.  Not sure how that qualifies as handling him very well.

[MatildaMoody]

8 hours ago, elang4 said:

Yeah but to be fair, Lorelai was against the idea of Luke having Jess stay from the beginning. She tried to warn him against it.

 

I just think she was trying to get Luke to think through what taking on a troubled teenager that he barely knew would entail. Because, let's face it that is a huge undertaking and Luke barely even considered the living arrangements, let alone what type of support Jess might need after coming out of a messed up family situation. But, I think she was supportive of him when he decided to go through with it and was willing to welcome Jess and help Luke anyway she could. 

[elang4]

19 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

Um, except that Jess totally ignored all of Luke's laws, lied to him to skip school and work, ultimately failed his senior year and then refused to go back so he could graduate.  Not sure how that qualifies as handling him very well.

Maybe so but I still think Luke’s way was better than what Lorelai was doing the first day. She was too full on. Luke knew to hold back a bit.

16 minutes ago, MatildaMoody said:

 

I just think she was trying to get Luke to think through what taking on a troubled teenager that he barely knew would entail. Because, let's face it that is a huge undertaking and Luke barely even considered the living arrangements, let alone what type of support Jess might need after coming out of a messed up family situation. But, I think she was supportive of him when he decided to go through with it and was willing to welcome Jess and help Luke anyway she could. 

I agree she did try but she handled it completely wrong. She was too in his face and expected him to laugh at her jokes when all he wanted to do on his first day was probably sit and read somewhere. I love Sookie and Jackson but even they were a bit over the top as well at the dinner. No wonder Jess wanted some space!

[MatildaMoody]

4 minutes ago, elang4 said:

Maybe so but I still think Luke’s way was better than what Lorelai was doing the first day. She was too full on. Luke knew to hold back a bit.

I agree she did try but she handled it completely wrong. She was too in his face and expected him to laugh at her jokes when all he wanted to do on his first day was probably sit and read somewhere. I love Sookie and Jackson but even they were a bit over the top as well at the dinner. No wonder Jess wanted some space!

 

My post was only about whether or not Lorelai was trying to get Luke to change his mind about bringing Jess to SH. I don't think she was trying to persuade him not to do it. She just wanted him to think it through to avoid making things worse for both him and Jess. 

I think that her approach with questioning Luke was one that a good friend would take. She wanted Luke to think through all of the potential issues - especially since Luke wasn't even sure he had decent bedding for the kid to sleep on. Everything that Lorelai questioned Luke about during that first conversation had more to do with logistics he hadn't considered than whether or not he should actually take Jess in. Luke got defensive and the conversation deteriorated, but I never got the impression she was against Luke helping out his nephew or that she wouldn't be supportive of him. 

Jess needing space because he wasn't used to people being so OTT with welcoming and wanting to include him is one thing, but there was no excuse for his downright rudeness. I mean, I personally think that Jess and Paris were soulmates - EW had so much more chemistry with him than AB ever did (and we only saw them in a single scene together) - but even Paris's abrupt and assertive behavior towards everyone was more palatable to me because she was just being straightforward, rather than rude. 

I guess, I don't understand how we were supposed to believe that Jess was this "smart" and "wiser than his years" kid when it never occurred to him to make some polite mumbles and be on his way with that type of OTT openness. Especially, when he was so willing to take everything that Rory said to heart (until she started dating him - then it was all eye rolls and impatience for her loving the town and people in her life, even when one of those people was Luke). 

[elang4]

11 minutes ago, MatildaMoody said:

 

My post was only about whether or not Lorelai was trying to get Luke to change his mind about bringing Jess to SH. I don't think she was trying to persuade him not to do it. She just wanted him to think it through to avoid making things worse for both him and Jess. 

I think that her approach with questioning Luke was one that a good friend would take. She wanted Luke to think through all of the potential issues - especially since Luke wasn't even sure he had decent bedding for the kid to sleep on. Everything that Lorelai questioned Luke about during that first conversation had more to do with logistics he hadn't considered than whether or not he should actually take Jess in. Luke got defensive and the conversation deteriorated, but I never got the impression she was against Luke helping out his nephew or that she wouldn't be supportive of him. 

Jess needing space because he wasn't used to people being so OTT with welcoming and wanting to include him is one thing, but there was no excuse for his downright rudeness. I mean, I personally think that Jess and Paris were soulmates - EW had so much more chemistry with him than AB ever did (and we only saw them in a single scene together) - but even Paris's abrupt and assertive behavior towards everyone was more palatable to me because she was just being straightforward, rather than rude. 

I guess, I don't understand how we were supposed to believe that Jess was this "smart" and "wiser than his years" kid when it never occurred to him to make some polite mumbles and be on his way with that type of OTT openness. Especially, when he was so willing to take everything that Rory said to heart (until she started dating him - then it was all eye rolls and impatience for her loving the town and people in her life, even when one of those people was Luke). 

I actually agree with you about him and Paris. I wish we had seen more of them! Imagine what Rory would have done if he started dating Paris!! ?

[MatildaMoody]

16 minutes ago, elang4 said:

I actually agree with you about him and Paris. I wish we had seen more of them! Imagine what Rory would have done if he started dating Paris!! ?

To be fair, Paris had more chemistry with Jess, Tristan, and Logan, than Rory ever did with any of them. So, that may just be EW's natural charisma over AB's beautiful blandness. Personally, though, I would have loved to see Paris and Jess date so that Rory and Dean could have had the organic breakup that was being telegraphed since "That Damned Donna Reed." It was obvious that Rory and Dean would eventually break up because that episode showed how clearly they were going in different directions (and because he was her very first boyfriend). If the writers had allowed that to happen without bringing Jess or Tristan into the mix, maybe they wouldn't have had to assassinate Dean's character in order to make the Jess's, Tristan's, and Logan's more palatable. 

It would have been nice to have Rory and Dean break up because they changed (as teenagers do), rather than have Rory trying to decide between Dean and Jess only to have Dean get tired of the comparison and do the breaking up for her. 

[elang4]

1 minute ago, MatildaMoody said:

To be fair, Paris had more chemistry with Jess, Tristan, and Logan, than Rory ever did with any of them. So, that may just be EW's natural charisma over AB's beautiful blandness. Personally, though, I would have loved to see Paris and Jess date so that Rory and Dean could have had the organic breakup that was being telegraphed since "That Damned Donna Reed." It was obvious that Rory and Dean would eventually break up because that episode showed how clearly they were going in different directions (and because he was her very first boyfriend). If the writers had allowed that to happen without bringing Jess or Tristan into the mix, maybe they wouldn't have had to assassinate Dean's character in order to make the Jess's, Tristan's, and Logan's more palatable. 

It would have been nice to have Rory and Dean break up because they changed (as teenagers do), rather than have Rory trying to decide between Dean and Jess only to have Dean get tired of the comparison and do the breaking up for her. 

I agree. I’m really not a Dean fan but I do understand his jealousy. Rory made it so obvious she liked Jess. She should have ended it as soon as she realised. I agree with you that I think they were drifting apart even before Jess appeared on the scene. They should have just stayed broken up after the first time imo.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

AB/Rory is easy target. It always circles back to her. It was a good conversation while it lasted.

[MatildaMoody]

26 minutes ago, elang4 said:

I agree. I’m really not a Dean fan but I do understand his jealousy. Rory made it so obvious she liked Jess. She should have ended it as soon as she realised. I agree with you that I think they were drifting apart even before Jess appeared on the scene. They should have just stayed broken up after the first time imo.

I only liked season 1 Dean. He was the perfect first boyfriend because he got her sense of humor, understood her pop culture references, and wanted to understand her SH world. It was Rory with Dean that I didn't like. She was willing to give up her dream school, ignore her best friend, and change her beliefs for him when he never asked her to do any of those things. Even in the TDDR episode, he didn't try to convince her to change who she was, he just asked her to consider a different point of view. We should have all been so lucky to have a first boyfriend like that. I just think the writers had no where to go with that type of boyfriend, so it was easier to make him jealous and possessive when introducing a new love interest. 

3 minutes ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

AB/Rory is easy target. It always circles back to her. It was a good conversation while it lasted.

I'm sorry, did I miss something? 

[HeySandyStrange]

15 minutes ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

AB/Rory is easy target. It always circles back to her. It was a good conversation while it lasted.

Rory is the second main characters, so it makes a lot of things come back to her, as the vast majority of the seven seasons of GG focused on her.

14 minutes ago, MatildaMoody said:

I only liked season 1 Dean. He was the perfect first boyfriend because he got her sense of humor, understood her pop culture references, and wanted to understand her SH world. It was Rory with Dean that I didn't like. She was willing to give up her dream school, ignore her best friend, and change her beliefs for him when he never asked her to do any of those things. Even in the TDDR episode, he didn't try to convince her to change who she was, he just asked her to consider a different point of view. We should have all been so lucky to have a first boyfriend like that. I just think the writers had no where to go with that type of boyfriend, so it was easier to make him jealous and possessive when introducing a new love interest. 

The writers (aka ASP&DP) really could've tried a little harder to give Rory and Dean's relationship a natural life cycle and ending. Off the top of my head, as Rory is drifting away from Dean, let him start to fit in at SHH and the townie life as Rory dives deeper into academia and the wealthy world of her grandparents. Both of them realize they aren't as into each other and break up in a normalish manner, with neither holding some crazy torch or idealized image of each other. Of course, that would be contingent on Dean staying the fairly intelligent, decent dude he was in the first, so...yeah.

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, HeySandyStrange said:

Rory is the second main characters, so it makes a lot of things come back to her, as the vast majority of the seven seasons of GG focused on her.

The writers (aka ASP&DP) really could've tried a little harder to give Rory and Dean's relationship a natural life cycle and ending. Off the top of my head, as Rory is drifting away from Dean, let him start to fit in at SHH and the townie life as Rory dives deeper into academia and the wealthy world of her grandparents. Both of them realize they aren't as into each other and break up in a normalish manner, with neither holding some crazy torch or idealized image of each other. Of course, that would be contingent on Dean staying the fairly intelligent, decent dude he was in the first, so...yeah.

I agree. I always thought they should have gone this route and broken up in season two. Season one was Rory experiencing her first boyfriend and all the firsts that came with that. Dean was a nice guy who liked her and approached her. They were cute together. But I really don't think that should have lasted into season two or as far into season two as it did. As you pointed out Rory's very academic. That would be a perfect time for her to dive further into that, any clubs or things at Chilton or things she needed to do to get into Harvard (or Yale). Dean really wasn't interest in that. He was into sports and into building cars. Its easy to see how they could grow apart or maybe Rory wants to date someone who's as into school and books as she is. Maybe Dean's not really interested in talking about school all the time and reading books but football and cars.  There was no reason to dumb down Dean or make Rory look bad for wanting Jess.            

[Guest]

Rory also had a case of "the grass is always greener."  When she was with Dean, she clearly wanted Jess for much of that time. Then when she and Jess got together, she would compare him badly to Dean. Then when she was back with Dean, she seemed to have a bit of longing to be part of Logan's group (I don't think she was interested in Logan that much, but she was drawn to them in some ways.) 

I don't totally fault Rory for this as I think it is a fairly common immature trait, much like I don't think Dean was a terrible boyfriend in Season 1 even when he did a couple things I hated (breaking up with her for not saying "I love you") because I think he was a pretty typical immature 16 year old.

[Anela]

I remember when Rory said she wouldn't be a phi beta bimbo. She kind of was one, for a little while. 

[elang4]

3 minutes ago, deaja said:

Rory also had a case of "the grass is always greener."  When she was with Dean, she clearly wanted Jess for much of that time. Then when she and Jess got together, she would compare him badly to Dean. Then when she was back with Dean, she seemed to have a bit of longing to be part of Logan's group (I don't think she was interested in Logan that much, but she was drawn to them in some ways.) 

I don't totally fault Rory for this as I think it is a fairly common immature trait, much like I don't think Dean was a terrible boyfriend in Season 1 even when he did a couple things I hated (breaking up with her for not saying "I love you") because I think he was a pretty typical immature 16 year old.

Totally agree! Whenever she was with one guy, she wanted another except maybe when she was with Logan and then early season 1 Dean. It just annoyed me about her. She wanted Jess so badly and then when she was with him, she constantly compared him to Dean. Even Lorelai, who didn’t like Jess, called her out on it.

[Katy M]

45 minutes ago, elang4 said:

Totally agree! Whenever she was with one guy, she wanted another except maybe when she was with Logan and then early season 1 Dean. It just annoyed me about her. She wanted Jess so badly and then when she was with him, she constantly compared him to Dean. Even Lorelai, who didn’t like Jess, called her out on it.

As far as the Rory and Dean/Jess stuff, I think it's important to remember that she's still in HS at that time and they were her first two boyfriends.  She was happy enough when she was with Dean until she met Jess.  She wanted to still like Dean better because of whatever reason.  Did she handle the whole situation badly?  Yes, she certainly did.  But, unlike some of her later shenanigans, she had the excuse of youth and inexperience on that one. And after the breakup, she did at least try to apologize to Dean for treating him badly, and, IMO, she wasn't really trying to hurt anyone, or even being selfish.  She just didn't know what she really wanted.  Again, she was young.  Had she learned from the whole experience, well, that would have been good.

[elang4]

18 minutes ago, Katy M said:

As far as the Rory and Dean/Jess stuff, I think it's important to remember that she's still in HS at that time and they were her first two boyfriends.  She was happy enough when she was with Dean until she met Jess.  She wanted to still like Dean better because of whatever reason.  Did she handle the whole situation badly?  Yes, she certainly did.  But, unlike some of her later shenanigans, she had the excuse of youth and inexperience on that one. And after the breakup, she did at least try to apologize to Dean for treating him badly, and, IMO, she wasn't really trying to hurt anyone, or even being selfish.  She just didn't know what she really wanted.  Again, she was young.  Had she learned from the whole experience, well, that would have been good.

True. But she didn’t seem to learn from it. I agree she was young but she did it while she was at Yale as well. Don’t even get me started on her sleeping with Dean while she was married. Even after all that, when she was with Dean, she wanted Logan.

[Katy M]

28 minutes ago, elang4 said:

True. But she didn’t seem to learn from it. I agree she was young but she did it while she was at Yale as well. Don’t even get me started on her sleeping with Dean while she was married. Even after all that, when she was with Dean, she wanted Logan.

Yes, absolutely, but I was just speaking to her high school Dean/Jess love triangle.  That's why I said if she had learned from it, it would have been good. But, she apparently did not.  But, the fact that she didn't learn from it doesn't negate the fact that at the time she was young, inexperienced, and doing the best she could have done at that point.  I  wish the series had ended when Rory graduated from Chilton, because then I wouldn't have come to pretty much hate her.  I liked HS Rory.

[Guest]

I think I have a lot more tolerance for characters having what I consider to be age-appropriate issues than ones they should have outgrown.  That's why I really don't have a problem with high school Dean, high school Rory, and even some of Jess' initial shenanigans.  It's when they should have outgrown things or act stupidly as an adult (Dean and Rory hooking up, Richard ramming Emily's car out of jealousy, etc.) that I think it is more of a character flaw. 

[elang4]

6 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Yes, absolutely, but I was just speaking to her high school Dean/Jess love triangle.  That's why I said if she had learned from it, it would have been good. But, she apparently did not.  But, the fact that she didn't learn from it doesn't negate the fact that at the time she was young, inexperienced, and doing the best she could have done at that point.  I  wish the series had ended when Rory graduated from Chilton, because then I wouldn't have come to pretty much hate her.  I liked HS Rory.

Yeah I did like HS Rory as well but I agree she changed at Yale. I know a lot of people do change a bit when they go off to college but she just didn’t seem like Rory anymore. What I thought was sad was that when Lorelai had a big moment with Luke, she couldn’t share it with Rory and get excited together. The first kiss, Rory slept with Dean and then when Lorelai proposed, Rory was at Emily and Richard’s. I always thought that was sad because I feel like Rory would have been as happy and excited as Lorelai.

3 minutes ago, deaja said:

I think I have a lot more tolerance for characters having what I consider to be age-appropriate issues than ones they should have outgrown.  That's why I really don't have a problem with high school Dean, high school Rory, and even some of Jess' initial shenanigans.  It's when they should have outgrown things or act stupidly as an adult (Dean and Rory hooking up, Richard ramming Emily's car out of jealousy, etc.) that I think it is more of a character flaw. 

I agree. I respected that Rory went and apologised to Dean for treating him badly. That was good of her. However, a part of me wondered if that was because she didn’t like anyone hating her. Even Dean said that.

[SimonSeymour]

I, too, have this show on a loop in the background while I sleep. At this point, my husband and I are embarrassed that we have 45 minute discussions about various plot lines and characters on this show. 

I want to hate Logan so badly, but I just can’t. 

I feel the exact opposite about Christopher. 

[elang4]

5 minutes ago, SimonSeymour said:

I, too, have this show on a loop in the background while I sleep. At this point, my husband and I are embarrassed that we have 45 minute discussions about various plot lines and characters on this show. 

I want to hate Logan so badly, but I just can’t. 

I feel the exact opposite about Christopher. 

I love talking about Gilmore Girls!! ? I’ve recently got my mum into it and while I was watching it, every episode she would say that Lorelai was so annoying! I enjoyed seeing an outsider’s perspective on it.

[SimonSeymour]

On 1/10/2018 at 10:31 AM, stan4 said:

You know, I have watched every episode of this show to a degree my wife finds beyond abnormal but I still cannot figure out the details of Emily/Richard's falling out with Lorelai or what the exact problem was.

Sometimes she says she had no voice and was ignored.  Sometimes she says she was suffocated by expectations she couldn't fulfill (though then we hear she's at the top of her class, etc).

 

And, btw, if Chilton is such a muckity  muck "it" school in Hartford, why didn't Lorelai go there?  Seems like Richard knew the headmaster pretty well, etc.

Also, why, when Christopher meets Logan for the second time (the day Rory moves in with him at Yale after Paris kicks her out), does Christopher have a long list of boarding schools he also was kicked out of?  He and Lorelei at least went to high school together for a few years. In my experience (based on novels and some biographies lol), it’s more likely that you go to prep school either from the very beginning of school to the end or, when you’re in junior high and high school. 

[stan4]

On 1/11/2018 at 7:30 AM, deaja said:

Rory also had a case of "the grass is always greener."  When she was with Dean, she clearly wanted Jess for much of that time. Then when she and Jess got together, she would compare him badly to Dean. Then when she was back with Dean, she seemed to have a bit of longing 

I wonder if it ended (the wishy-washy behavior) with Logan because Rory was older and wiser OR (and this is my theory) because Logan was the first guy Rory pursued.

Dean went after her.

Jess went after her.

Dean 2.0 still went after her.

 

Logan...Logan SHE had to go after.

When you actively choose and pursue someone, I think you tend to be more invested AND there is a reason you go after them in the first place.

[elang4]

17 minutes ago, stan4 said:

I wonder if it ended (the wishy-washy behavior) with Logan because Rory was older and wiser OR (and this is my theory) because Logan was the first guy Rory pursued.

Dean went after her.

Jess went after her.

Dean 2.0 still went after her.

 

Logan...Logan SHE had to go after.

When you actively choose and pursue someone, I think you tend to be more invested AND there is a reason you go after them in the first place.

I agree. Logan didn’t make it easy for her and Rory acted somehow surprised that he didn’t immediately want to be with her. And she ended up being so desperate that she actually agreed to a no strings relationship which was so not her!!

Edited January 15, 2018 by elang4

[nclpllm]

On 1/10/2018 at 10:31 AM, stan4 said:

You know, I have watched every episode of this show to a degree my wife finds beyond abnormal but I still cannot figure out the details of Emily/Richard's falling out with Lorelai or what the exact problem was.

Sometimes she says she had no voice and was ignored.  Sometimes she says she was suffocated by expectations she couldn't fulfill (though then we hear she's at the top of her class, etc).

According to Lorelai, Richard and Emily's master plan was for her to go to Vassar and marry a Yale man, regardless of what she wanted. We never heard Richard or Emily say this though. And what they do say makes this claim questionable. Richard fondly remembered Lorelai declaring that she was going to Yale when she was young. He was disappointed when Rory was planning tea parties, didn't want her to have Emily's life. Emily did want Lorelai to have a comfortable well-off life, but also didn't want Luke to hold Lorelai back. She's made a catty remark about Lorelai's 'wasted potential.' It's hard [for me] to imagine Lorelai's wasted potential was supposed to revolve around her husband's life. It's safe to assume they wanted her to go to an elite college and have a comfortable upper-middle class life, and of course, get married before having kids (same wish for Rory, and even Lorelai wanted her to have 'it all'). 

In Richard's case, this article made me think of him. What he wants from his wife isn't what he wants for his daughter. 

Anyway, as much as Lorelai didn't go to Vassar and marry a Yale man, and then didn't marry Chris, they did not cast her aside for being a teen mom. They didn't kick her out or disown her or cut  her off. Lorelai claimed that she was such an embarrassment to them, she had to leave. But they in no way wanted to be shunned the way they were.  

In the revival, when Lorelai was arguing with Rory over the book of their life, she said Emily called Rory Suzy for two years, but that doesn't ring true. We saw in the flashback, Emily commented that Rory's stroller wasn't lying around for once. We see the devastation in her face when she read the letter Lorelai left, and Richard said Emily stayed in bed for a month after Lorelai ran away with Rory. That doesn't sound like uncaring aloofness that can't be bothered to remember her granddaughter's name. 

Yes, Lorelai did say she was suffocated and Emily wanted to control her. When Rory was living in the big house, Emily had the audacity to ask where Rory was going when she left and laid out a dress. I mean, the horror. And yeah, they invited the reverend to talk to her about her virtue. I've seen the argument that they have no place not wanting Rory to have sex at their house. Buy my mom wouldn't let my and my sister's boyfriends' sleep in our rooms when we stayed at our parents' house, even when we were engaged. Her house, her rules. 

As abhorrent as Lorelai finds Emily, she too wanted control over her daughter, but has a different style. She wants to know all the intimate details of Rory's life because they're best friends, so it's cool. Notice, she planned for Rory to go to Harvard when she was an infant and when Rory wanted a break, Lorelai barely spoke to her until the plan was back on track. No matter which side of the plans Lorelai is on, she's the one to do the stonewalling. 

 

On 1/14/2018 at 7:44 AM, SimonSeymour said:

Also, why, when Christopher meets Logan for the second time (the day Rory moves in with him at Yale after Paris kicks her out), does Christopher have a long list of boarding schools he also was kicked out of?

At some point they decided Logan was Rory's Christopher. So they made up some trivial biographical info to let us know they're the same. Like in the revival, suddenly Christopher has 'caved' and went to work at the family business. Even though that business was the law and he didn't go to college. 

[Frelling Tralk]

I totally agree, I never get the impression that Richard and Emily’s focus was simply on Lorelai marrying well and becoming a society wife, their complaints were always about how she was the top of her class, how she had such promise, and Emily not being able to get past the fact that she instead ended up dropping out of school to work ‘as a maid’. And really Lorelai could have still gone to school part-time surely and worked on getting some qualifications while she was living at home, she didn’t actually *have* to give up formal education for good after her pregnancy, it seemed like that was mostly a byproduct of her running away from home. 

Presumably Lorelai didn’t like the idea of leaving Rory with her parents or with a nanny while she continued her education, instead she wanted to do it all on her own terms right then and there, even if that meant her and Rory struggling in those early years and living in a converted shed 

Edited January 20, 2018 by Frelling Tralk

[Taryn74]

23 hours ago, nclpllm said:

Like in the revival, suddenly Christopher has 'caved' and went to work at the family business. Even though that business was the law and he didn't go to college. 

Not to mention, both his father and grandfather have been dead over a decade at this point.  I never got the impression that their "family business" (law firm, I assume?) was so successful that it fell on Christopher to keep the legacy alive.

[Guest]

On 1/19/2018 at 11:52 AM, nclpllm said:

Lorelai barely spoke to her until the plan was back on track. No matter which side of the plans Lorelai is on, she's the one to do the stonewalling. 

This is so true.  For someone who was so forgiving and accepting of others at times, she was also very quick to cut people out of her life.

[ghostwhisperer]

I was supposed to read a novel this weekend, but reading 45+ pages of this thread proved to be a lot more entertaining! There are so many interesting and eloquently expressed perspectives here that I realized my main UO is that I honestly enjoy discussing and reading about the show more than I enjoy watching it at this point.

My main unpopular opinion that seems less unpopular since the release of the revival: Nearly every single character is terrible. A lot of the debate here centers around the degree of that terribleness, but to me it goes way beyond having realistically flawed characters and into the realm of ASP creating a whole bunch of people I'm supposed to root for despite how strongly I'd dislike them in real life and have started, after just two viewings of the series, to really tire of even on my screen. Only Lane, who's likable but often not very interesting, and Dave Rygalski are spared from the wrath of ASP, and I have no doubt that the latter would have been ruined somehow if he had remained on the show longer than a season.

This thread helped to crystallize the vague sense I'd always had about this show, which is that underneath the froth and fluff ASP has a deeply cynical worldview, particularly when it comes to romantic relationships. As so many others have stated, the men are all either disturbingly angry, bitter, jealous and rude or smirky, smug brats who might seem charming but, according to ASP, can't be trusted. It's almost as if she made the men deliberately awful to make our female characters seem less terrible by contrast? Speaking of which, I agree that Lorelai and Rory are awful. So are, in my unpopular view, Emily and Paris and other characters who seem very popular despite how proudly malicious they so often choose to be. Basically the only way I can tolerate this show at all is to view it as deliberately comic exaggeration almost to the point of farce and satire. 

You can probably tell that one of my opinions is that the revival didn't assassinate these characters. Their worst qualities may have been more emphasized, but most of what we saw was depressingly consistent with what we already knew about them. I didn't enjoy the revival, but I've come to grudgingly respect it for shedding most of the original series' flimsy pretense that these are lovely people living in an optimistic world where passionate, healthy romantic love exists and people's dreams come true. ASP just leans into the bitter cynicism that was actually underpinning everything all along and was more and more at play in later seasons. These are messed up people living in a world where everyone is doomed to follow the same dysfunctional paths as the generations above them and people can only be happy when they learn to settle. 

And I do see Luke and Lorelai as settling. They still can't communicate above a second grade level, they're still dishonest with themselves and each other, they still have less chemistry and passion than two inanimate objects, and they are still so incompatible that I now wonder with genuine bafflement how they ever even connected as close friends, let alone supposed lovers in a longterm romantic relationship.  Their relationship quickly became one of the most depressing aspects of the show as early as season 4 or 5. In the revival, Lorelai's arc seems to be all about desperately trying to convince herself she's happy with Luke and in a moderately healthy and loving relationship despite the fact that most of their scenes and the fact that neither took any action towards even discussing marriage or kids indicate otherwise. The feeble resolution seems to be that we should settle for what we've got and tell ourselves it's enough even when it clearly isn't. But their relationship always had that vibe to me of two people desperately deluding themselves that it was working even when they had no passion, communication or anything else people want in a romantic partner. I love how someone here pointed out that the buildup to their first kiss embodied what their relationship would be throughout, misunderstanding and annoying each other, making each other confused and angry, not being able to express themselves like adults or even emotionally stunted pre-teens, Luke being the jealous and belligerent caveman with Lorelai seeming less happy than she does around almost anyone else. And that is supposedly ASP's best couple? Heaven help us!

It's not like this show doesn't have any redeeming qualities, because obviously it does if we all still care enough to discuss it. It's got some amazing dialogue, some terrifically executed scenes that blend humor and emotion, and allows those of us who have always lived in cities to visit a cozy, charming small town. But it is also a really problematic show with very problematic characters, and it's made more problematic by how infrequently the pre-revival show seems to directly acknowledge or even be aware of how problematic these people and their relationships are. I have never used the word problematic more in my entire life than I did in that preceding sentence, but I guess GG "inspired" me :-)

Edited January 22, 2018 by ghostwhisperer

[Katy M]

32 minutes ago, ghostwhisperer said:

So are, in my unpopular view, Emily and Paris and other characters who seem very popular despite how proudly malicious they so often choose to be.

The only reason I like Emily and Paris is because I think that they grow.  IMO, they are both much less horrid and more kind and empathetic at the end then at the beginning.  Disclaimer: I have not seen the revival, so they may have backslid.  While I love high school Rory because she basically seems sweet, hard-working and like she generally cares about other people and then she goes in the complete opposite direction and grows into a selfish brat.

My favorite characters, though, are by far Lane, Richard, and Luke.  With honorable mentions to Suki and Kirk.  I just can't not love Kirk even though in real life I'd probably have the urge to punch him out.  And, I don't find Lane boring in the least.

[ghostwhisperer]

@Katy M, from what I can see, loving Luke is extremely popular. I'll admit that I can't stand him and really don't get why he's so loved and, as others have said, excused for a lot of things that other characters would be raked over the coals for. There are plenty of fictional characters I wouldn't like in reality but find interesting and entertaining as characters, a category which Emily and Paris often fall into, but Luke in my unpopular opinion Luke lacks the layers, nuance and intelligence to be even a remotely interesting character. He's just a rude, obnoxious, dishonest (when was he going to tell Lorelai about April if she hadn't found out after two long months of him keeping her a secret?), sulky, childish, dumb, brutish mass of unfounded anger and constant misery who will fix your porch railing for you during the one or two days a year you might want that sort of thing done but would be a nightmare to coexist with. 

Quote

And, I don't find Lane boring in the least.

Good for you.