Season 6: Info, Casting and Spoilers

[anamika]

Er, because Littlefinger isn't actually allied with the Boltons.  He's planning to attack them.

 

So while the Boltons are fighting the Stark Loyalists, LF attacks the Boltons? How dumb is LF supposed to be? Will not the Stark loyalists attack him as well? Considering he facilitated the marriage and rape of Sansa? Or are you suggesting that the Stark loyalists, including Jon and the Wildlings, will then ally with LF?! Was he not planning to attack the Boltons to become warden of the North?

 

Why would Littlefinger go back to the Vale because Sansa is missing?  He's planning to attack the Boltons, and if Sansa was missing he'd stay and look for her.  And there's no way they're going back to the Vale; the events of the previous two seasons have rendered the whole book Vale plot irrelevant, since it's all about gaining control of the Vale and Littlefinger and Sansa have already done that in the show.

 

       1. We don't know exactly what LF is planning. He told Sansa one thing. He told Cersei something else.

       2.  According to what he told Sansa, he envisages Stannis winning and Sansa becoming wardeness of the North. This is now not happening

       3. According to what he told Cersei he plans to beat a weak Bolton faction after Stannis' defeat. From what we saw of Ramsay, the Boltons won a handy victory with Stannis' men deserting. And from spoilers, the Boltons are still hanging around in episode 9 of season 6, taking on the rest of the North. So LF attacking the Boltons is not happening either.

       4. LF is going to stay in WF and look for Sansa for 8 episodes? What, does he think Sansa is hiding in the dog kennels? Sansa and Theon are long gone. Without Sansa in WF and with him not attacking/defeating the Boltons (From spoilers) I don't see any reason for LF to hang around in the North. I see him leaving back to the Vale in his trusty teleporter. This is the guy who can travel from WF to KL in like a day. Why would he waste time sitting around in WF till episode 9.

       5. Sansa and Theon likely split up with Theon heading to the Iron Born. I don't see Sansa going back willingly to WF and Ramsay. She was ready to die rather than stay there. So it's likely she meets up with a LF returning to the Vale and they head back there together in his teleporter.

      6. We don't know what the Vale plot line is about since we are not GRRM and can only speculate at this point. The vale food stock pile is certainly important and the vale army will have a role to play. But we don't what that role is. Stannis is still alive and well and is probably going to win the battle for WF in the books for all we know.

     7. And finally Jon/Wildlings/Umbers seem to be taking on the Boltons in episode 9. What is LF doing till then? Rehashing his season 5 story arc and hoping that this time the Boltons will be weak enough for him and his vale knights to attack?

 

The plot in the Vale is about Sansa's character development, and the struggle for power in one of the remaining uncommitted political powers -- the show has skipped over the former, and is massively condensing the politics of the series, so the latter was dealt within in one episode.

    

        What character development is she getting in the Vale that she did not get in Winterfell? In both cases, we have LF giving her some tips on how to play the game. In both cases she is following LF's orders. Flirt and marry Harry. Flirt and marry Ramsay.  And if the Vale is really that insignificant that they were able to whittle it down to one episode, then I hope that GRRM does not spend too long there in the next book.

 

    And we would also have the problem of Sansa's story being massively accelerated if the North is where she is headed, as others are still behind their stories or are only just catching up. Arya has just started ADwD. Jon, Dany and Bran have just caught up to ADwD and are starting TWoW. Tyrion is probably in early TWoW, having met Dany. The Northern plot is moving forward real quick with Manderly/Davos/Rickon and Stannis/Boltons while LF/Sansa are still stuck in the Vale. With the massive snows falling, I really don't see how LF/Sansa can get to WF and beat whomever is sitting there which will most likely be Rickon/Jon in the books. If the show is just accelerating Sansa's story then she is probably in ' A Dream of Spring' territory.

 

  I do think that LF/Sansa may head back to the Vale and reconnect with whatever GRRM has planned with regards to the Vale plot line. Just like Jaime reconnecting with his riverlands plot which may or may not end up having any significance. Considering that Lady Stoneheart is absent in the TV show.

 

So, I think the Vale is probably off the table in terms of location - particularly if they are going back to the Riverlands at some point.

       

       The Vale, Riverlands, Winterfell are all filmed in more or less the same locations. Belfast and Iceland. Nicolaj was going to Iceland to most probably shoot scenes for the Riverlands. The Vale scenes have been shot in Belfast too.

Edited September 15, 2015 by anamika

[mac123x]

After all SweetRobin is still there, and should not the Vale plot in the book have some little bit of significance? If not then why is GRRM and the reader wasting their time writing and reading through Sansa's 'pride and prejudice' adventures with Harry the heir and Myranda and Shadrich and lemon cakes and tourneys and all that boring nonsense.

 

Well, not to be too cynical, but this is GRRM we're talking about.  We spent what, 3-4 chapters with Quentin Martell for him to wind up dead having accomplished little.  We didn't need to see his difficulties reaching Meereen, but there they are.

[nksarmi]

Well, not to be too cynical, but this is GRRM we're talking about.  We spent what, 3-4 chapters with Quentin Martell for him to wind up dead having accomplished little.  We didn't need to see his difficulties reaching Meereen, but there they are.

 

Exactly.  And like I said - there is still the little matter of Aegon in the books.  I don't believe Sansa's Vale story matters at all in terms of the show and that is at least part of why they moved her out of it.  Let's not forget that the show invented a Dorne story for Jamie and pretty much trashed anything that was interesting about Dorne in the process.  I really don't think we can think of things in terms of how the characters match up to the books anymore because it looks as if they are simultaneously still covering a little bit of book 4/5 territory while being well into book 6 plots for the next season.

 

While there are reports of both Jamie and Arya in the Riverlands, it also seems like Jamie spends most of season six in KL and Ayra spends most of it in Braavos.  Jamie moving to the Riverlands probably does not mean we are getting his book plot but rather that they need him out of KL for things like Kevan meeting up with his book fate and the rift with Cersei to come to fruition; plus I'd say there is a decent chance that they need Jamie out of KL when Dany finally arrives (and if we are lucky that will happen in season seven). 

 

Plus while this is wild speculation - I think Martin (and D&D) are going to bring some things full circle for Jamie, including some kind of encounter with Bran (probably a magical one), some kind of reunion with Brie, and somehow, I think Jamie is going to pay his debt to Catelyn and do some good for Sansa or Ayra.  So yea, I don't think we are so much as getting Jamie's Riverland story as they are putting him in place for events his character participates in season seven.

 

If they are dropping all the diplomacy and peace making Jamie does in the Riverlands (and I think they are) - I have no doubt they are going to drop Sansa's "scheming and diplomacy" lessons in the Vale.  I am not even convinced LF will leave KL and meet up with any of the Northern plot in season six - at least not until he sees a clear victor and figures out how to use it all to his advantage.

 

Finally, maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part, but I truly hope that Sansa and Brie meet up early and she spends time with Brie and Pod working to find Rickon.  While Jon might eventually meet up with Sansa and Rickon - it should be Sansa, who is running from Ramsey and needs the help of a Stark-loyal Northern lord, who meets up with Rickon first.  They put Sansa in the North, married her to Ramsey, and had her rapped and tortured by him - she damn well better get the payoff of finding her little brother and see the Boltons fall from power.

[anamika]

Well, not to be too cynical, but this is GRRM we're talking about.  We spent what, 3-4 chapters with Quentin Martell for him to wind up dead having accomplished little.  We didn't need to see his difficulties reaching Meereen, but there they are.

 

  Well, I agree, but I would think that Sansa is a slightly more important character than Quentin Martell and hence her story in the books should be heading somewhere and contribute something to the overall plot. The fact that they threw away the entire Vale plot with Harry and all that stuff shows what a waste of space that was. And we are going to get more of this in TWoW. Probably all of TWoW would be Sansa and Harry and LF plotting. Damn.

 

If you notice, Jon, Arya, Dany, Bran and Tyrion are pretty much sticking to their book plots in the show till date. No changes. In fact they put Bran on hold because they had reached the end of his book story and he had to wait for the others to catch up. This tells me that the stories of these characters cannot be changed much if D and D have to reach the same ending as GRRM. Which is their stated goal.

 

 Sansa's story on the other hand has massively changed. This could mean three things:

 

   1. Her story on the show is different to that in the books. The character and her story do not have much of an impact on the final ending. She could end up dying before we get there

    2. They are massively accelerating her story for some reason bypassing a lot of maybe unnecessary plot like the Vale.  If this is true, it will be interesting to see what she does in the North while the others start their TWoW story arcs.

    3. Or, they just wanted to give Sansa/Sophie Turner what they thought was more interesting drama than Sansa making Sweet Robin eat his dinner in the Vale or having Sansa sit out this season like Bran. So they replaced Jeyne with Sansa like sending Jaime to Dorne. Now that the other characters are caught up, they could have her rejoining her Vale plot like Jaime rejoining his Riverlands plot.

Edited September 15, 2015 by anamika

[SeanC]

So while the Boltons are fighting the Stark Loyalists, LF attacks the Boltons? How dumb is LF supposed to be? Will not the Stark loyalists attack him as well? Considering he facilitated the marriage and rape of Sansa? Or are you suggesting that the Stark loyalists, including Jon and the Wildlings, will then ally with LF?! Was he not planning to attack the Boltons to become warden of the North?

Absent consistent Twitter updates, Littlefinger wouldn't have daily updates on everything happening in the North.  He was waiting for one of Stannis or the Boltons to win; that has happened.  He has to initiate his invasion plan.  The Stark loyalists wouldn't attack him unless Sansa told them to.  And as for Littlefinger's goal, his goal is to become ruler; Jon and co. are not expected players, but if Sansa is still amenable (which is what he believes) then he has a plausible outreach to them.

 

1. We don't know exactly what LF is planning. He told Sansa one thing. He told Cersei something else.

       2.  According to what he told Sansa, he envisages Stannis winning and Sansa becoming wardeness of the North. This is now not happening

       3. According to what he told Cersei he plans to beat a weak Bolton faction after Stannis' defeat. From what we saw of Ramsay, the Boltons won a handy victory with Stannis' men deserting. And from spoilers, the Boltons are still hanging around in episode 9 of season 6, taking on the rest of the North. So LF attacking the Boltons is not happening either.

       4. LF is going to stay in WF and look for Sansa for 8 episodes? What, does he think Sansa is hiding in the dog kennels? Sansa and Theon are long gone. Without Sansa in WF and with him not attacking/defeating the Boltons (From spoilers) I don't see any reason for LF to hang around in the North. I see him leaving back to the Vale in his trusty teleporter. This is the guy who can travel from WF to KL in like a day. Why would he waste time sitting around in WF till episode 9.

       5. Sansa and Theon likely split up with Theon heading to the Iron Born. I don't see Sansa going back willingly to WF and Ramsay. She was ready to die rather than stay there. So it's likely she meets up with a LF returning to the Vale and they head back there together in his teleporter.

      6. We don't know what the Vale plot line is about since we are not GRRM and can only speculate at this point. The vale food stock pile is certainly important and the vale army will have a role to play. But we don't what that role is. Stannis is still alive and well and is probably going to win the battle for WF in the books for all we know.

     7. And finally Jon/Wildlings/Umbers seem to be taking on the Boltons in episode 9. What is LF doing till then? Rehashing his season 5 story arc and hoping that this time the Boltons will be weak enough for him and his vale knights to attack?

We do know broadly what he's planning, because getting Cersei's permission to invade the North was the whole point of his scheme last year.  If he doesn't do that, it makes even less sense.  Moreover, in your scheme, why would Littlefinger then leave even after he finds Sansa?  The point of going North is to consolidate his power, and with Sansa and the Vale army, he can do that.  And what, in this version of events, is the point of...anything that happened in Sansa's season 5 story?  She doesn't do anything with the information about her brothers, or have anything to do with the Boltons' fall, or anything.

 

There's a Bolton army in the field, but that doesn't mean that it's at Winterfell, or that the Boltons still have it.

 

We have no idea what exactly Littlefinger will be doing.  Perhaps his part of the Northern story at that point will be about interacting with Sansa, while Jon and co. go fight, since Sansa's story is meant to be about politics. 

 

What character development is she getting in the Vale that she did not get in Winterfell?

Lots.  The entire "Alayne Stone" story is about Sansa's class prejudices, and the struggle to suppress and reassert her Stark identity (akin to Arya's story at the same time).  And she's actually learning to play the game of thrones in a plausible manner, whereas Sansa just got +50 IQ points for one episode, and then forgot about it and went back to being Season 1 Sansa in Season 5 (well, actually, Season 1 Sansa would have had the good sense to be too scared to go to Winterfell, so maybe that's unfair to her).

 

  I do think that LF/Sansa may head back to the Vale and reconnect with whatever GRRM has planned with regards to the Vale plot line.

The Vale plot is about gaining control of the Vale.  They've already done that.  All of the conflicts in the Vale plot in the books either don't exist or have been resolved or rendered irrelevant, and there has been no new Vale casting this year that we know of.

 

The fact that they threw away the entire Vale plot with Harry and all that stuff shows what a waste of space that was.

No, it doesn't.  Depending on how charitable you are, it shows either that the show didn't have space for it or the writers didn't care about Sansa's character development enough to give her her own story.

Edited September 15, 2015 by SeanC

[ElizaD]

The scene with Jaime, Margaery, Tommen and the Sparrows looks like it could be visually striking, and the faux-Westerosi costumes of the players in Braavos are hilariously accurate/awful versions of stuff that's already been worn onscreen.

 

WOTW has some comments by Kit, Nathalie and Gwendoline:

 

As for season 6, Christie shared with the Sunday Times that she’d just been filming and had “been fighting for three whole days, three entire days without ceasing or desisting. Really vicious, vicious, up-close, thuggish fighting.” When asked who the fight was with, or who had won, the actress wouldn’t tell.

 

Saving Sansa/Theon from Bolton soldiers, participating in the big 6x09 fight, or something to do with the outlaws in the Riverlands? Even if someone else gets the season 6 Riverlands stuff, I do have a stronger feeling than last year that a Jaime/Brienne reunion might happen despite the cutting of Stoneheart.

 

You’ve got Tyrion who is just so comical, and then Missandei, who is very straight and collected, and very internal with her feelings, and then Grey Worm (Jacob Anderson), who is almost emotionless altogether, as far as we’re aware… So to put those two characters with a guy who just talks a lot, and is so funny, and is a bit of a drunk, a bit of a womanizer — it’s setting up for a really interesting dynamic.

 

A few months ago I was so hopeful that  Dany would reach Westeros in season 6. Going from 7 to 8 seasons seems to have guaranteed a full season of Tyrion & Friends in Meereen and the chase for Dothraki-napped Dany.

 

        What character development is she getting in the Vale that she did not get in Winterfell? In both cases, we have LF giving her some tips on how to play the game. In both cases she is following LF's orders. Flirt and marry Harry. Flirt and marry Ramsay.  And if the Vale is really that insignificant that they were able to whittle it down to one episode, then I hope that GRRM does not spend too long there in the next book.

 

I want Book Sansa to return to Winterfell, the happy childhood home which Littlefinger's goal is to reclaim for her with the support of the Vale lords, something she is learning to help him acquire. I will be disgusted if 6x10 has Show Sansa return to Winterfell, which she turned into the place where she was Ramsay Bolton's rape victim and then abandoned to the Boltons after admitting she'd been wrong to think that as a Stark she belonged there. The books have Sansa slowly learning things and trying to win allies; the show had her grant legitimacy to the Bolton occupation of Winterfell, not lift a finger to avenge her family or flirt with Ramsay the way she's flirting with Harry, and finally submit without a fight to her threatened recapture and further use as a Bolton baby machine/torture puppet. That's a huge difference: even if Sansa had been written so that she had actively been making use of her time there by trying to mess with the minds of Ramsay/Roose/Walda rather than wandering around aimlessly and then spending her time locked up, being raped by Ramsay would still be (or should be, if the show bothered with any kind of emotional realism) an experience that will stay with her for the rest of her life and influence the way she'll approach another sexual relationship, compared to Book Sansa who can flirt with Harry without the trauma that Book Jeyne/Show Sansa have acquired as a result of their torture by Westeros' worst sadist. Book Sansa has potential, Show Sansa has been reduced to a passive idiot who's actually lived up to the haters' old claims that she's spineless, useless to her family, and couldn't scheme her way out of the proverbial paper bag.

 

Officially, Littlefinger didn't know about Ramsay's nature, necessary so the showrunners could do the Ramsay story they've wanted since season 2 - they said they loved the subplot but it used a character not on the show, so Sansa's Vale storyline was cut because Ramsay raping his bride was a bigger priority (the show already had Jaime rape Cersei with zero trauma or change to their relationship, so I expect no onscreen exploration of emotional consequences now that the important part of this plot is over). Littlefinger could easily claim his plan to backstab the Boltons by giving them a false sense of security went horribly wrong and that he's as eager as any to avenge Sansa with the Vale army he can use to fight the Boltons, which would allow the discovery of his backstabbing of Ned to become a separate plot in season 7 or 8.

[SeanC]

A few months ago I was so hopeful that  Dany would reach Westeros in season 6. Going from 7 to 8 seasons seems to have guaranteed a full season of Tyrion & Friends in Meereen and the chase for Dothraki-napped Dany.

The weird part is that we've only heard of one casting in relation to Meereen, the new Red Priestess, Kinvara.  What are Tyrion and co. going to be doing all year?

[nksarmi]

I am not as big a fan of what book Sansa is doing, but if they had stuck with that story rather than put her in Winterfell, I wouldn't have complained much.  However, now that they put her in Winterfell if they return show Sansa to the Vale and give her no payoff for what she endured in season five, I will be physically ill.  Show Sansa damn well better get to find her little brother and have a blissfully happy reunion with him (complete with Shaggy Dog licking her on the check and her saying she misses Lady).  And she damn well better get to see the Boltons fall and as creepy and worthy of death as Mel is - I want Sansa in Winterfell walking those walls right along with her.  Yes, Sansa should be scarred and damaged by what happened with Ramsey, but that doesn't mean she can't have some justice in season six and maybe even be part of some Stark reunions we've been waiting so long for.

 

Besides, to be perfectly honest, despite both of them having almost seemingly worthless plots in season five, I think there is a lot of emotional traction to be gained by pairing up Sansa and Brie for part of season six.  Brie would see Sansa as the idealized woman she could never be, but Sansa might actually envy Brie's ability to fight and protect herself.  I would pay extra money to get to see them travel and interact.  Plus, I kind of want see Pod and Sansa have at least one conversation about Tyrion.  I am so hoping that Brie's fight scenes are a sign that she hooks up with and stays with Sansa for awhile in the North.

[benteen]

I agree.  It seems the only reason Sansa was put in the North was to be a victim again and that's a damning assessment of D&D are writers if that's the case.

[ElizaD]

The weird part is that we've only heard of one casting in relation to Meereen, the new Red Priestess, Kinvara.  What are Tyrion and co. going to be doing all year?

 

That is strange. With Hizdahr dead, Meereen currently has four named characters who are all good guys and solidly on Dany's side. Where's the conflict? More Harpy attacks? Tyrion using Dany's throne for audiences with random nobles and slaves? That would be season 5 without the dragons. I can speculate about what the other characters will be doing and see merit in all kinds of different theories, but Tyrion might be the biggest question mark.

 

Besides, to be perfectly honest, despite both of them having almost seemingly worthless plots in season five, I think there is a lot of emotional traction to be gained by pairing up Sansa and Brie for part of season six.  Brie would see Sansa as the idealized woman she could never be, but Sansa might actually envy Brie's ability to fight and protect herself.  I would pay extra money to get to see them travel and interact.  Plus, I kind of want see Pod and Sansa have at least one conversation about Tyrion.  I am so hoping that Brie's fight scenes are a sign that she hooks up with and stays with Sansa for awhile in the North.

 

The show does like pairing up established characters (it's why I'm still surprised they didn't bother to have a Sansa/Roose conversation), so Sansa meeting Brienne and sending her to the Riverlands in the next episode would feel like a waste. Either Brienne or Jon killing Ramsay would make sense (the rapist is killed by a woman or by the victim's brother), but if I got to choose I think I'd prefer Brienne since based on her previous show characterization she'd be more likely to outclass and wreck Ramsay and give him fewer opportunities to taunt his opponent by recalling the rapes, and it would be at least some kind of atonement for her inefficiency in season 5.

[anamika]

Absent consistent Twitter updates, Littlefinger wouldn't have daily updates on everything happening in the North.  He was waiting for one of Stannis or the Boltons to win; that has happened.  He has to initiate his invasion plan.  The Stark loyalists wouldn't attack him unless Sansa told them to.  And as for Littlefinger's goal, his goal is to become ruler; Jon and co. are not expected players, but if Sansa is still amenable (which is what he believes) then he has a plausible outreach to them.

 

       Yes, the Boltons have now won against Stannis. This is the point at which LF was planning to swoop in with his Vale army and defeat them. But he clearly does not do it, because the Boltons are still standing 9 episodes later in season 6 and taking on Jon and the Wildlings. Are you telling me that LF is still initiating that plan to attack the Boltons in episode 9 of season 6?! The man who can teleport around Westeros in days is just sitting around waiting for take two of the Boltons Vs whomever so that he can attack the victor? Basically a repeat of his season 5 story arc? That's incredibly redundant for the character.

 

We do know broadly what he's planning, because getting Cersei's permission to invade the North was the whole point of his scheme last year.  If he doesn't do that, it makes even less sense.  Moreover, in your scheme, why would Littlefinger then leave even after he finds Sansa?  The point of going North is to consolidate his power, and with Sansa and the Vale army, he can do that.  And what, in this version of events, is the point of...anything that happened in Sansa's season 5 story?  She doesn't do anything with the information about her brothers, or have anything to do with the Boltons' fall, or anything.

 

     But he was also lying to Cersei about many things, including Sansa. He requested men from KL, then tells her the Vale knights can handle the snows better. He got her into trouble with the high sparrow.  Invading the North was his scheme last year. But everything seems to have gone wrong. The Boltons don't seem to be weaker. In fact it looks like they absorbed Stannis' men. Sansa has disappeared. If attacking the Boltons when they are weak is what LF really planned, then he should have reached  there with the Vale army right after Stannis lost. Being the master planner that he is. But from season 6 spoilers he does not seem to have done this.

 

 The point of LF leaving with Sansa back to the Vale is for him to accept that his play in the North failed, and make another move. Which would be the Vale plot that GRRM is currently working on for TWoW. Hard winter has come to the North in the books and the different factions are playing their own games at a very fast pace. At the wall, I think there is an imminent invasion of the Others, the wall falls and if Jon is in the battle for WF it is only to gain WF as a place from where they can make a stand. I see no place for LF here. I think he will be embroiled in southern politics and Iron Throne game for quite some time still.

 

   As for Sansa, she knows that her brothers are alive. Maybe that will come into play some day. But I don't think that it means that she has to stay in the North for something to happen. Sam told Jon that Bran was alive. I don't see that changing anything in Jon's story.  What was the point of Jaime's adventures in Dorne? 

 

In the books I could see that Theon maybe play a role in what happens to the Boltons. And Jon because that is where he was headed with the wildlings before he got stabbed. But why in the world would Sansa have anything to do with the fall of the Boltons in the books? That's Theon's story. That's the story of the Northern plotting and playing their game of thrones and surprise Rickon waiting in the shadows. Dumping Sansa in there is not only taking away from whatever story GRRM is writing for her in the books, but taking away from other character's plots.

 

here's a Bolton army in the field, but that doesn't mean that it's at Winterfell, or that the Boltons still have it.

  

Where do you think they are fighting, if not at Winterfell? Considering Mel's prophecy of tearing down the Bolton banners and walking in Winterfell, it's pretty clear that Jon and Mel are going to take down the Boltons and capture WF. And why would the Boltons not have their army. Ramsay is still fighting with them

 

 

We have no idea what exactly Littlefinger will be doing.  Perhaps his part of the Northern story at that point will be about interacting with Sansa, while Jon and co. go fight, since Sansa's story is meant to be about politics. 

 

   And where are they going to be interacting for 8 episodes before the big battle?  Is Sansa going to go back as Ramsay's wife in WF while LF vacations there waiting for the second battle so that he can attack the Boltons? The Boltons are in WF till episode 9. Do you see Sansa in WF with them? Or are Sansa and LF going to be camping in the snow outside?

 

 

Lots.  The entire "Alayne Stone" story is about Sansa's class prejudices, and the struggle to suppress and reassert her Stark identity (akin to Arya's story at the same time).  And she's actually learning to play the game of thrones in a plausible manner, whereas Sansa just got +50 IQ points for one episode, and then forgot about it and went back to being Season 1 Sansa in Season 5 (well, actually, Season 1 Sansa would have had the good sense to be too scared to go to Winterfell, so maybe that's unfair to her).

 

   See, unless Book Sansa actually plays the game, we really cannot gauge how much she has learned about playing the game. Except for the one instance where she deduced that Corbray was LF's man, she really has not come up with any her own plans or shown any initiative about anything. Show Sansa has. She bravely engaged the Lords of the Vale unlike book Sansa who was too scared to even speak up. She as able to act and pretend in front of them. She got information from Ramsay about Jon and about Rickon/ Bran from Theon. She finally said fuck it, and jumped from Winterfell walls, for the first time showing some real agency about her life. Show Sansa is a lot more daring and willing to take risks, unlike book Sansa who is not willing to take a step forward without LF's approval.

 

    And I really don't see a lot of 'Alayne' confronting class prejudices in her story. She feels sorry for herself that she has to play at being a bastard and cannot dance, . but she's more of a privileged bastard really, who can order the maids around and is going to marry Harry the Heir.  Arya is the one who confronts the reality of class privilege in her travels with the less privileged.

 

The Vale plot is about gaining control of the Vale.

          

           You keep repeating this, but has GRRM come out and said this is what the Vale plot is about?  If not, then how do you know that the Vale plot is about gaining control of the Vale? What is Harry's role? What is Shadrich doing there? Will that plot connect to the Riverland plot? Or Aegon landing in Storm's end? Or Dany landing in KL? We don't what is the significance of the vale plot until TWoW comes out. According to GRRM, Sansa's chapter in the Vale in TWoW was the beginning of a new story arc for her. According to you, Sansa's TWoW arc is going to be about gaining control of the Vale?

 

No, it doesn't.  Depending on how charitable you are, it shows either that the show didn't have space for it or the writers didn't care about Sansa's character development enough to give her her own story.

 

   If Sansa is not heading back to the Vale, I do think those chapters are going to be waste of space and that Sansa is not going to be playing much of a role in the end. As I mentioned, Jon, Dany, Arya, Tyrion and Bran are all getting their required significant moments played out on screen showing them becoming leaders, assassins, advisers and wargs. If supposedly important book character moments are taken away from Sansa while she plays the role of characters like Jeyne, that tells me that I am not missing anything if I skip her chapters. Could probably skip right through her TWoW chapters, until she lands in the North.

Edited September 15, 2015 by anamika

[Advance35]

Show Sansa damn well better get to find her little brother and have a blissfully happy reunion with him (complete with Shaggy Dog licking her on the check and her saying she misses Lady).  And she damn well better get to see the Boltons fall and as creepy and worthy of death as Mel is - I want Sansa in Winterfell walking those walls right along with her.

 

I'm actually betting against it.   IF she lives, something I'm not convinced of (it just felt like Ms. Turner didn't film as much) I feel like inkeeping with just about everyone else on the show, she will NOT get revenge on those who've done her wrong.   If she's heading towards a destination that's fair and just or anything in the stratosphere of happy, count on things making a sharp left in the very near future.

 

If the writers have her reconnect with Rickon, I just can't see her ruling  the North as a Regent.   I can't see Northern Lords taking her word as law, I MIGHT be able to see them tolerate her as an additional figurehead but I don't think she's going to be the brain to what's left of the Northern Brawn. 

 

 

Yes, the Boltons have now won against Stannis. This is the point at which LF was planning to swoop in with his Vale army and defeat them. But he clearly does not do it, because the Boltons are still standing 9 episodes later in season 6 and taking on Jon and the Wildlings.

 

This is going to sound very insane BUT do we know for a fact that The Bolton forces are fighting Jon/the Wildlings/Miscellaneous Northern Lords?   I know it would probably cause MASS aneurysm's throughout the fandom but Jon Snow is likely thinking about the greatest threat his world has ever known, what if Jon/Wildlings are going to be battling "the Others".    The Nightmare from beyond the wall is a plot that the show runners are moving forward with, what if Jon has to form an alliance with the North/Roose Bolton and everyone else to fight them?

 

Except for the one instance where she deduced that Corbray was LF's man, she really has not come up with any her own plans or shown any initiative about anything. Show Sansa has. She bravely engaged the Lords of the Vale unlike book Sansa who was too scared to even speak up. She as able to act and pretend in front of them. She got information from Ramsay about Jon and about Rickon/ Bran from Theon. She finally said fuck it, and jumped from Winterfell walls, for the first time showing some real agency about her life. Show Sansa is a lot more daring and willing to take risks, unlike book Sansa who is not willing to take a step forward without LF's approval.

 

I like Sansa in both book and show but I kind of agree with you.   I think she's gotten a little canny in terms of social graces and by that I mean better able to use courtly behavior to her benefit and I think  

Based on TWOW, it was clever of her to come up with the idea of holding a Tourney to get a consolidation of all Vale Nobility, since LF was hoping to do just that, but Sansa came up with the reason

  but I think the show has done a good job of showing her evolution.   I hope we get to see what these Northern Lords look like.   The way a show cast a character can tell a lot.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Advance35

[ElizaD]

Somehow I don't remember there being this many WOTW updates last year. Here's another one with lots of Faith photos.

 

And in other Spain filming news: According to El Punt Avui, shooting will also continue on Saturday (September 19th) at Castell de Santa Florentina in Canet de Mar, where Game of Thrones will be shooting a medieval meal with chefs from England.

This tidbit solidifies that Canet de Mar will be used for Horn Hill, along with the scene spoilers we’ve heard concerning the location.

 

And in the comments:

 

“It begins with the High Sparrow going down the Sept’s stairs while the people applaud him. He explains that Queen Margaery has joined them in accepting the power of the Faith. Just then, Jaime Lannister bursts into the scene, on horseback and leading an army of a hundred and forty Tyrell soldiers, and demands that the High Sparrow free Queen Margaery. Suddenly, the gates of the Great Sept open —it is Tommen Baratheon, followed by Queen Margaery and the Kingsguards, who are bearing the Faith Militant’s sigil instead of the Royal sigil. The king and queen have accepted the High Sparrow’s reformed faith, and they are acclaimed by the people. It is emphasized that this is only the first part of the scene; the rest will be filmed today, and it is expected to be a trascendental scene in which the two factions come to blows.”
Confirming 4 things:
1) The High Sparrow is a genius, solidifying the hold of the Faith on the Crown. In practice, he is a Pope-King now. 2) The King basically answers to the High Sparrow from now on. 3) The Tyrells are back as major players, although they respond to the Faith as well. 4) Cersei is cornered by everything and everyone in King’s Landing.
From http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0944947/board/thread/248344205and translated from the orginal report (http://www.elpuntavui.cat/cultura/article/19-cultura/895261-latac-al-temple.html?cca=1

[Avaleigh]

So Margaery still isn't allowed to wear her own clothes? I wonder how late in the season this scene is supposed to be?

 

The High Sparrow still sounds like the most dangerous man in King's Landing. 

[nksarmi]

I'm actually betting against it.   IF she lives, something I'm not convinced of (it just felt like Ms. Turner didn't film as much) I feel like inkeeping with just about everyone else on the show, she will NOT get revenge on those who've done her wrong.   If she's heading towards a destination that's fair and just or anything in the stratosphere of happy, count on things making a sharp left in the very near future.

 

If the writers have her reconnect with Rickon, I just can't see her ruling  the North as a Regent.   I can't see Northern Lords taking her word as law, I MIGHT be able to see them tolerate her as an additional figurehead but I don't think she's going to be the brain to what's left of the Northern Brawn. 

 

 

This is going to sound very insane BUT do we know for a fact that The Bolton forces are fighting Jon/the Wildlings/Miscellaneous Northern Lords?   I know it would probably cause MASS aneurysm's throughout the fandom but Jon Snow is likely thinking about the greatest threat his world has ever known, what if Jon/Wildlings are going to be battling "the Others".    The Nightmare from beyond the wall is a plot that the show runners are moving forward with, what if Jon has to form an alliance with the North/Roose Bolton and everyone else to fight them?

 

 

I like Sansa in both book and show but I kind of agree with you.   I think she's gotten a little canny in terms of social graces and by that I mean better able to use courtly behavior to her benefit and I think  

Based on TWOW, it was clever of her to come up with the idea of holding a Tourney to get a consolidation of all Vale Nobility, since LF was hoping to do just that, but Sansa came up with the reason

  but I think the show has done a good job of showing her evolution.   I hope we get to see what these Northern Lords look like.   The way a show cast a character can tell a lot.

 

I realize that the show isn't much for happiness, BUT I'm am ever the optimist lol.  And really the show (and to a lesser degree the books) has reached such a low at this point that I kind of think things have to start turning around.  They need to give the good guys some victories and give viewers/readers people to cheer for.  Because let's face it, a few more victories by the likes of people like Ramsey and we are all going to be on Team White Walker soon.

 

Do I believe that Sansa will become the brains of the Northern Brawn?  I wish I could believe she had that in her, but no, that is not what I think will come to be.  I just believe she could become a symbol for the North to rally around.  Why can't that be Jon or Rickon?  Perhaps Rickon is too young for the Northern lords to risk it?  And maybe they won't know about Jon until the big battle where Jon ends up in command of the wildlings and the North?  Maybe when the Umbers and other Northern lords learn that they married off Ned's little girl to that sadistic bastard, they will just simply want revenge on the Boltons.  That last one is terribly cliché but a very realistic result of making Sansa the victim in season five. 

 

But ultimately given where they left off, to me the next logically steps are:

 

- Ramsey discovers that Theon and Sansa are missing and leads a hunt for them

- Brie figures out that Sansa escaped because Ramsey sends his men out

- Theon who knows the North is able to find places for him and Sansa to hide but they have a close call

- Brie rescues them and at some point these people figure out they need to change cloths so they can all be a little less obvious

- Sansa decides she trusts Brie enough (Sansa finally trusts someone good!) to either ask her to take her to the closest Northern lord OR she goes full on and asks her to help her find her brothers

- At some point, Theon leaves them because once they reach the Northern lords, he is a dead man (thus explaining how he ends up with the Iron Born)

- Brie gets Sansa to the Umbers and either Rickon is already there or Sansa sends Brie on Davos mission from the books

- Sansa takes shelter with the Northerners and events unfold that lead to the big battle with the Boltons at the end of the season

 

Assuming no - or little - time has passed when we pick back up again - LF should still be in KL.  I realize he disappeared a couple of episodes before the finale, but I really don't think that little conversation with Olenna will be the last thing he does before he leaves town.  He has a vested interest in making sure Olenna is happy and doesn't find a way to expose his secrets.  I wouldn't be surprised at all if LF is used to drive a wedge between Cersei and Jamie and he might even be a player in getting Jamie to help rescue Marg and Loras. 

 

I mean yes, LF has an interest in the Vale and the North, but as master a game player as he is - I don't think he can smooth things over with Olenna in KL, have a Vale army show up in Winterfell just to see the Boltons already victorious and then make a good excuse as to why he is there, and be a party to looking for Sansa while not tipping his hand against Ramsey all at once.  LF is going to be annoyed that he lost Sansa as an asset, but as far as I can tell she is well and truly lost to him.  I just can't see anyway they rewind and do the Vale story from the books now.

 

I mean shit - I don't care what they have said about LF not knowing about Ramsey.  If Sansa trusts LF AT ALL after this, I might end up hating her.  I'm sorry - the most generous interpretation would be that LF is so incompetent and a failure at looking out for her safety that she would be better off casting her lots somewhere - anywhere - else.  It would be one things if he HAD arrived at the Battle of Winterfell with a Vale army because then he could have claimed he came to rescue her. But with her on the run and no sign of him in sight - I hope she knows she's better off with Theon, Pod, and Brie than LF.   

[Lady S.]

So Margaery still isn't allowed to wear her own clothes? I wonder how late in the season this scene is supposed to be?

 

The High Sparrow still sounds like the most dangerous man in King's Landing. 

Jack Bender was reportedly sighted, which would make it ep 5 or 6.

[SeanC]

I am not as big a fan of what book Sansa is doing, but if they had stuck with that story rather than put her in Winterfell, I wouldn't have complained much.  However, now that they put her in Winterfell if they return show Sansa to the Vale and give her no payoff for what she endured in season five, I will be physically ill.  Show Sansa damn well better get to find her little brother and have a blissfully happy reunion with him (complete with Shaggy Dog licking her on the check and her saying she misses Lady).  And she damn well better get to see the Boltons fall and as creepy and worthy of death as Mel is - I want Sansa in Winterfell walking those walls right along with her.  Yes, Sansa should be scarred and damaged by what happened with Ramsey, but that doesn't mean she can't have some justice in season six and maybe even be part of some Stark reunions we've been waiting so long for.

In truth, I frankly think that even if she does meet Rickon (and I expect she will), it will be a weak payoff, for two reasons:

 

1)  Given that Rickon is with the Umbers in the show, it's not like this is not information Sansa could not have come by any other way.  Had she been in a rational plot, one where Sansa tried to rally the Vale to help her drive the Boltons out, or even just reached out to potential Northern allies, instead of marching happily to Winterfell to become the Boltons' hostage, she would have learned that he was alive anyway.

2)  Similar to the above: Rickon is apparently safe with the Umbers.  He doesn't really need her help.  If anything, she needs his help, particularly if she ends up finding him because she flees to Last Hearth and stumbles across him by accident, as many have speculated.  If she had learned somehow that he was on Skagos, like he is in the books, that at least would have been information she wouldn't have likely come by otherwise, and would have lead to her possibly being of real assistance.

 

IF she lives, something I'm not convinced of (it just felt like Ms. Turner didn't film as much)

There's 3 full months of filming left, at least, even if she had been filming an atypically small amount to date (which is debatable, really, since we don't know how long any given scene takes.

 

This is going to sound very insane BUT do we know for a fact that The Bolton forces are fighting Jon/the Wildlings/Miscellaneous Northern Lords?   I know it would probably cause MASS aneurysm's throughout the fandom but Jon Snow is likely thinking about the greatest threat his world has ever known, what if Jon/Wildlings are going to be battling "the Others".    The Nightmare from beyond the wall is a plot that the show runners are moving forward with, what if Jon has to form an alliance with the North/Roose Bolton and everyone else to fight them?

 

The filming reports said there was no sign of anything White Walker-related.  It was Jon vs. Boltons.

[WearyTraveler]

My feeling on the books Vale story is this:

 

While LF is now in control of it, his hold on power in the Vale is tenuous.  He's only got control because he's Sweetrobin's stepfather and the boy is kept under control.  But once Robert Arryn comes of age, he's supposed to command the Vale.  Robert is a wildcard at best, and who knows what he'll do once he becomes the ruler of the Vale.  That's not something LF can trust.

 

So, the plan is for Sansa to marry Harry the Heir, and probably have SR killed, so that Sansa, a player LF controls, is in a position to allow LF to continue to control the Vale.  Presumably Sansa will have learned how to control and manipulate her husband Harry by then, so, LF will be behind the scenes as much as he was with Lyssa, but still in control.

 

What may happen then is that either LF encourages Sansa to take back the North (through Harry commanding the Vale) or that Sansa actually becomes a better player than LF, discovers his role in her family's downfall, and tosses him aside.  And then she urges her husband to go North.

 

Whatever happens in the Vale in the books, I'm pretty sure that eventually Sansa will end up in the North and that the show has simply chosen to get her there sooner.

[Hecate7]

I want Book Sansa to return to Winterfell, the happy childhood home which Littlefinger's goal is to reclaim for her with the support of the Vale lords, something she is learning to help him acquire. I will be disgusted if 6x10 has Show Sansa return to Winterfell, which she turned into the place where she was Ramsay Bolton's rape victim and then abandoned to the Boltons after admitting she'd been wrong to think that as a Stark she belonged there. The books have Sansa slowly learning things and trying to win allies; the show had her grant legitimacy to the Bolton occupation of Winterfell, not lift a finger to avenge her family or flirt with Ramsay the way she's flirting with Harry, and finally submit without a fight to her threatened recapture and further use as a Bolton baby machine/torture puppet. That's a huge difference: even if Sansa had been written so that she had actively been making use of her time there by trying to mess with the minds of Ramsay/Roose/Walda rather than wandering around aimlessly and then spending her time locked up, being raped by Ramsay would still be (or should be, if the show bothered with any kind of emotional realism) an experience that will stay with her for the rest of her life and influence the way she'll approach another sexual relationship, compared to Book Sansa who can flirt with Harry without the trauma that Book Jeyne/Show Sansa have acquired as a result of their torture by Westeros' worst sadist. Book Sansa has potential, Show Sansa has been reduced to a passive idiot who's actually lived up to the haters' old claims that she's spineless, useless to her family, and couldn't scheme her way out of the proverbial paper bag.

 

Officially, Littlefinger didn't know about Ramsay's nature, necessary so the showrunners could do the Ramsay story they've wanted since season 2 - they said they loved the subplot but it used a character not on the show, so Sansa's Vale storyline was cut because Ramsay raping his bride was a bigger priority (the show already had Jaime rape Cersei with zero trauma or change to their relationship, so I expect no onscreen exploration of emotional consequences now that the important part of this plot is over). Littlefinger could easily claim his plan to backstab the Boltons by giving them a false sense of security went horribly wrong and that he's as eager as any to avenge Sansa with the Vale army he can use to fight the Boltons, which would allow the discovery of his backstabbing of Ned to become a separate plot in season 7 or 8.

 

Littlefinger is NOT as eager as any to avenge Sansa. He set up Ned AND Catelyn. He set up Robb. He will set up Sansa, too, if he doesn't get what he wants. He never bothered looking for Arya and really couldn't care less about the Stark family. He set up Roz, and Tyrion, and Joffrey. He set up the Tyrells, too. His STATED goal season one was to destroy the Starks, Lannisters, Baratheons, Arryns, and Tullies. He's interested in getting a little Sansa nookie if he can, doubly so because it's a way of pissing on Ned and Catelyn's graves, NOT because Sansa is his one weakness or because he loves her so much. He'd probably take a little Margaery nookie too, but it doesn't mean he won't kill them in the end the way he did Lyssa.

 

Don't forget, that "happy childhood home" is gone. It was burned and rebuilt by the Boltons. It's full of Boltons now. Ned and Cat are dead. All the servants are Boltons. Winterfell will never again be the childhood home Sansa remembers. In all likelihood LF is as eager to kill the Boltons as any, but it's not because he wants to help or avenge Sansa. It's because he has his own agenda. He is not Sansa's prince charming. He's not anybody's white knight. It's quite possible he handed Sansa over to the Boltons by way of FINISHING OFF the Stark family, although marrying a Sansa pregnant by Ramsey is also a perfect way to take over.

[SeanC]

Littlefinger is NOT as eager as any to avenge Sansa.

Where did Eliza D say he was?  She said Littlefinger could claim that.

 

But he was also lying to Cersei about many things, including Sansa. He requested men from KL, then tells her the Vale knights can handle the snows better. He got her into trouble with the high sparrow.  Invading the North was his scheme last year. But everything seems to have gone wrong. The Boltons don't seem to be weaker. In fact it looks like they absorbed Stannis' men. Sansa has disappeared. If attacking the Boltons when they are weak is what LF really planned, then he should have reached  there with the Vale army right after Stannis lost. Being the master planner that he is. But from season 6 spoilers he does not seem to have done this.

 

 The point of LF leaving with Sansa back to the Vale is for him to accept that his play in the North failed, and make another move. Which would be the Vale plot that GRRM is currently working on for TWoW.

How did his scheme fail, in this scenario where he's got a huge army and Sansa and is in the North.  Seems like things are going pretty well.  And the Boltons did not absorb Stannis' men; that was just a justification some people came up with for why Ramsay's army looked so big.

 

The changes the show has made to the story make GRRM's Vale plot impossible.  The secret of Sansa's identity?  Exposed to the major players, and in any event the "Alayne Stone" identity was never a thing in the first place on the show.  Conflict between Littlefinger and the Lords Declarant?  Resolved.  Control of the Vale, which was the whole point of the Harry the Heir scheme?  Achieved.  Sansa's relationship with Robin, set up as something of a potential moral conundrum or turning point?  Nonexistent on the show.  And, again, there has been no new Vale casting.

 

Sam told Jon that Bran was alive. I don't see that changing anything in Jon's story. 

It did, in fact.  It prompted his little sojourn to Craster's Keep.

 

Where do you think they are fighting, if not at Winterfell? Considering Mel's prophecy of tearing down the Bolton banners and walking in Winterfell, it's pretty clear that Jon and Mel are going to take down the Boltons and capture WF. And why would the Boltons not have their army. Ramsay is still fighting with them

The North is a pretty big place.  They could be fighting anywhere.  As to the Boltons' army, that they lost Winterfell (potentially) doesn't mean they lost their whole army.

 

See, unless Book Sansa actually plays the game, we really cannot gauge how much she has learned about playing the game. Except for the one instance where she deduced that Corbray was LF's man, she really has not come up with any her own plans or shown any initiative about anything. Show Sansa has. She bravely engaged the Lords of the Vale unlike book Sansa who was too scared to even speak up. She as able to act and pretend in front of them. She got information from Ramsay about Jon and about Rickon/ Bran from Theon. She finally said fuck it, and jumped from Winterfell walls, for the first time showing some real agency about her life. Show Sansa is a lot more daring and willing to take risks, unlike book Sansa who is not willing to take a step forward without LF's approval.

Sansa got an out-of-nowhere IQ boost in episode 408, after the show had cut virtually all her character development, in a scenario where Littlefinger had to be a complete idiot in order for her to do what she did, and then amicably separated from her brain in 501.  Moreover, Sansa has shown her ability to act far more in the books, where her facade in KL was meant to be flawlessly charming, unlike the show version, who most sat around looking obviously distressed (much like she did in Winterfell, when she was meant to be charming the Boltons).  I have no idea how you think Sansa "getting information from Ramsay" constitutes some kind of achievement; that was no different from Myranda Royce telling her the same information.  Likewise, she yelled and Theon and he then blurted out information he didn't know she had.  And it was Theon who came up with the idea of jumping off -- and escaping is not something book Sansa has never done; indeed, she showed this far earlier than the TV version, when she took an active role in her escape from KL.

 

And I really don't see a lot of 'Alayne' confronting class prejudices in her story. She feels sorry for herself that she has to play at being a bastard and cannot dance, . but she's more of a privileged bastard really, who can order the maids around and is going to marry Harry the Heir.  Arya is the one who confronts the reality of class privilege in her travels with the less privileged.

You think it's not a significant detail that a character who started out with the firmest belief in the class system ends up living as a bastard, which initially horrifies her, and in the process both experiences some such prejudice and makes friends with others like Mya?  Alayne is certainly privileged compared to many, but so was Jon Snow.

Edited September 15, 2015 by SeanC

[Winnief]

Ok everyone let's calm down a bit-I completely agree that Sansa's Season 5 story arc was a mistake-BUT that doesn't mean Season 6 will be an abomination as well.  It could be bad or it could be good, but we don't know because right now we don't know ANYTHING.  For instance they could have Sansa when she contacts Northern Lords using her observations of the Bolton family dynamics to help take back WF, and other interesting developments of Sansa as Survivor figure or they might not.  We'll wait and see.  Yes we all miss the Vale storyline but we aren't getting it, and we'll just have to be patient to figure out what happens with LF.  Hell, maybe, Jon ends up riding with the Vale army (and some covert Northern supporters) for all we know at this point! 

 

If for no other reason than a change of subject, I'm going to posit my personal theory here now-that one reason D&D were so desperate to bring Sansa up North, (however questionable the means) and do so quickly is because Sansa IS the YMBQ-and the future bride of Jon Snow.  Maybe a love match or more likely given the series to fill some sort of political expediency but that it's destined to happen.  So D&D wanted her North not just to re-unite her with Rickon, (and possibly some dream messages from Bran) but to get that dynamic rolling which would at least make some sense. Maybe Martin could find a way on the page to have Sansa and Jon not have time to interact much but then have to wed but in the visual medium they're gonna need some set-up for it. 

 

I also have a nasty suspicion that one reason for giving Sansa, Jeyne's role, is to make sure that if/when Jon does take on the Bolton's it will be as personal as it gets which it will at this point even if Jon/Sansa remains a strictly platonic foster sibling vibe.  Personally I hate it when writers use the 'he raped/abused a woman I care about," trope to get the Hero really angry at the villain, and it wasn't even necessary in this case, (Roose after all personally killed Robb, and Ramsay is as repugnant as they come and clearly a threat to public safety) but I think it might have  played a role in their decision making.

 

In any event, whatever their motivations or whatever's coming, I must say I would like to see a Sansa/Jon reunion since I imagine Sophie and Kit could act the hell out of that scene.  Whatever else you can say about Season Five Sophie and Alfie certainly killed it in their scenes together.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Winnief

[Avaleigh]

I've long thought that Sansa was the YMB(Q) and agree that Jon is the best chance of making this happen. I also agree that this is one of the reasons she is already in the North.

 

Before the show cut Aegon I thought there was a possibility that Sansa might end up as Queen in that way but I really don't see who the other candidates can be. I don't think she'll be Queen of the North because I think that Rickon will end up with it. I don't know if he'll be king or lord but I think he's being kept alive to be the Stark who ends up with Winterfell. We know she isn't going to marry Tommen and Stannis is out. I remember some people actually thinking the latter might happen. Who's left? Euron--no way. 

 

Jon fits for a bunch of reasons.

 

If this pairing does happen and certain characters end up seeing each other again, I think the ones who would be most upset would be Arya and Tyrion and I think Tyrion would get over it. I can't imagine anybody else caring though.  

[nksarmi]

I have to admit that I can't help but wonder if GRRM will go full romance novel on us and marry Jon and Dany in the end.  But I also thought the dragon has three heads meant she would end up with Jon and Aegon.  Aegon not being on the show really has me confused lol.

 

Anyway, I never would have thought of Sansa and Jon ending up together, but the more I see it discussed - the more I'm growing used to the idea (just like wight Tommen killing Cersei).  That would be an interesting reason to have her in the North.  I will just be happy if Jon's fondness for red heads doesn't make him end up with Mel.

[Winnief]

 

I have to admit that I can't help but wonder if GRRM will go full romance novel on us and marry Jon and Dany in the end.

 

I can't discount that possibility nor the notion that Dany is in fact the YMBQ.  I don't fancy them much as a pairing but certainly it would make great dynastic sense.  Of course Robert/Cersei also on paper at least made good dynastic sense and look what happened there.  Marriages for love might not the way to go in ASOIAF but toxic matches between completely incompatible parties aren't great either.  But Jon's not Robert and Dany whatever her flaws is no Cersei and as a partnership it *might* work. 

 

  However, given all the emphasis on how so much Targaryen inbreeding over the years contributed to their madness, it's gonna be awfully hard to sell people on the idea of Jon marrying his freaking Targaryen aunt-especially one who's already shown signs of having some of that infamous instability in her nature.  Heck, half the reason Jon's such an improvement is almost certainly because Lyanna's blood gave him 'hybrid vigor.'  So if they do go that route people are gonna be worried about the kids.  Medically speaking, a first cousin isn't nearly so risky, especially since Sansa's father may have been brother to Jon's mother but there's no other gene mixing at all and by feudal standards it would be perfectly acceptable. 

 

Also Dany as the YMBQ doesn't seem quite right.  Logistically its completely doable of course, but from a narrative perspective its almost too obvious while at the same time anti-climatic because there's no personal drama between Dany and Cersei of any kind.  They've never even met.  Now given the family history Dany/Tywin could have been all kinds of awesome but the Lioness vs. The Mother of Dragons lacks any real emotional heft.  Sansa/Cersei on the other hand...that's as personal as it gets and the irony alone would be so, so delicious.  In fact, (I might be imagining it,) but on the show it seems they're almost playing up that dynamic even more than in the books what with making a point of introducing the two to each other in the very first episode to have Cersei condescend to the young girl who's clearly no threat at all.  Plus, if that were the case it would  certainly add heft to what was happening during the Battle of Blackwater in Maegor's Holdfast. 

 

So yeah, I can't count Dany out completely for obvious reasons, but I still think Sansa works better. 

Edited September 15, 2015 by Winnief

[anamika]

How did his scheme fail, in this scenario where he's got a huge army and Sansa and is in the North.  Seems like things are going pretty well.  And the Boltons did not absorb Stannis' men; that was just a justification some people came up with for why Ramsay's army looked so big.

 

      Because the fact the Boltons are still around and taking on Jon/Wildlings at the end of season 6 means that LF did not initiate his plans to attack.  I am not sure why this is so hard to understand.

 

    1. LF planned to take on the Boltons after the Boltons defeated Stannis

    2. Boltons defeated Stannis in episode 10 of season 5 and Sansa goes missing

    3. In episode 9 of season 6, the Boltons are now taking on Jon and the Wildlings

 

   If things are going well, why are the Boltons still sitting in Winterfell for almost the entirety of season 6? Where is LF and his huge Vale army?

 

The changes the show has made to the story make GRRM's Vale plot impossible.  The secret of Sansa's identity?  Exposed to the major players, and in any event the "Alayne Stone" identity was never a thing in the first place on the show.  Conflict between Littlefinger and the Lords Declarant?  Resolved.  Control of the Vale, which was the whole point of the Harry the Heir scheme?  Achieved.  Sansa's relationship with Robin, set up as something of a potential moral conundrum or turning point?  Nonexistent on the show.  And, again, there has been no new Vale casting.

 

      So the Vale is not involved in anything when Dany lands in Westeros with Tyrion and Varys? It's going to be Dany, Tyrion, Varys, Tyrells, Martells, Riverlands, Iron Born playing the game for the IT while LF is in the North dealing with an invasion of the Others?  And if what you say is true, then it sort of confirms the insignificance of the Vale plot. It's now not only boring to read but seems to be just about LF and Sansa taking a vale army North.

 

It did, in fact.  It prompted his little sojourn to Craster's Keep.

 

   And? So? Did it change anything or bring about anything monumental ? Jon got to display his prowess with a sword, kill the legend of gin alley and rescue some women. How did that add or change anything about his core storyline? His knowing about Bran being alive has been all but forgotten. I doubt that even the writers remember that Jon knows about Bran being alive.

 

The North is a pretty big place.  They could be fighting anywhere.  As to the Boltons' army, that they lost Winterfell (potentially) doesn't mean they lost their whole army.

 

       Why would they be fighting elsewhere?

 

       According to Mel's visions, she specifically sees Bolton banners being taken down.

 

 

I have seen myself walk amongst the battlements of Winterfell. I have seen the flayed man banners lowered to the ground.

 

        Since Mel is with Jon, we could hypothesize that the vision Mel is seeing is after Jon presumably defeats the Boltons in episode 9. This means that Bolton banners are still flying in WF and the Boltons still hold WF. This means that the Boltons and Jon are fighting for Winterfell.

 

Sansa got an out-of-nowhere IQ boost in episode 408, after the show had cut virtually all her character development, in a scenario where Littlefinger had to be a complete idiot in order for her to do what she did, and then amicably separated from her brain in 501.  Moreover, Sansa has shown her ability to act far more in the books, where her facade in KL was meant to be flawlessly charming, unlike the show version, who most sat around looking obviously distressed (much like she did in Winterfell, when she was meant to be charming the Boltons).  I have no idea how you think Sansa "getting information from Ramsay" constitutes some kind of achievement; that was no different from Myranda Royce telling her the same information.  Likewise, she yelled and Theon and he then blurted out information he didn't know she had.  And it was Theon who came up with the idea of jumping off -- and escaping is not something book Sansa has never done; indeed, she showed this far earlier than the TV version, when she took an active role in her escape from KL.

 

    I like show Sansa getting an IQ boost in the show. The Sansa in the books is too naive and stupid and her growth in the intelligence dept. is too slow. And it looks like GRRM is taking a page from the show by suddenly giving book Sansa an IQ boost if her TWoW sample chapter is anything to go by. The Sansa in the sample chapter is rather drastically different from the Sansa we saw in AFfC. This could be GRRM realizing that she needs that sudden boost to make up for the 5 yr gap that he had to give up.

 

    Meh, I did not see much of a difference between show and book Sansa in KL. Except for that one instance where she stupidly thinks that her family is coming for her wedding.  As for Ramsay, Sansa took the initiative to go talk to him instead of sitting and crying in her room. That's how she learned about Jon. The Sansa in the books never took the initiative to get to know Tyrion, talk to him, get information from him, use him. That's what I liked about Dany who was almost the same age as Sansa when she was forcefully married to and raped by Drogo. Instead of being all 'Woe is me' , Dany used him to exert her own power and influence.

 

  Sansa had very little power in Winterfell, but she was trying to actually DO things on her own initiative. I found that very refreshing compared to book Sansa. It does not matter if her plans failed. At the least she TRIED. Instead of waiting for someone to come rescue her, she tried to effect her own rescue. Awesome. She confronted Theon and got the information about her brothers. Book Sansa would not have confronted anyone. She's too scared to. Show Sansa took the leap off WF's walls, even if it was dangerous and risky to do so. HER decision. Book Sansa was too cautious when the hound asked her to leave KL with him. There's a reason Arya was able to get out of KL while Sansa was still stuck there till LF got her out. I just like that, right or wrong, show Sansa is making the decisions here in WF and not following LF's advice and cues unlike book sansa. That is growth. That is something I am yet to see in the books.

 

You think it's not a significant detail that a character who started out with the firmest belief in the class system ends up living as a bastard, which initially horrifies her, and in the process both experiences some such prejudice and makes friends with others like Mya?  Alayne is certainly privileged compared to many, but so was Jon Snow.

                      

        Not really, no. She was not really a bastard was she? She knew it, LF knew it. She was playing a part. She is distressed that she has to play a bastard, but that's in name only.  Very different to Jon's situation where he actually was a bastard and was limited in prospects. He lost his home when Ned left WF and the night's watch was one of the few ways he could hope to rise up in the world. Sansa is scheduled to marry the heir to the Vale.  And she's certainly more privileged than Jon, who had to put with Catelyn's hate. Sansa is for all purposes the Lady of the Vale, ordering around maesters and servants. Was Jon allowed to order around maester Luwin? Did anyone order him a 12 foot lemon cake?

Edited September 16, 2015 by anamika

[ElizaD]

I've long thought that Sansa was the YMB(Q) and agree that Jon is the best chance of making this happen. I also agree that this is one of the reasons she is already in the North.

 

Though I don't believe in the theory as strongly as in something like Cersei burning KL, I'd probably say Jon/Dany has a fifty-fifty chance of happening. Yet I've been hoping one of the other queen theories (Sansa/Margaery/Cersei herself) turns out to be true since I have zero emotional investment in Dany showing up to beat Cersei when she's never met her and Cersei will likely have lost her children, her power, KL and Jaime before Dany ever gets to Westeros. Though I see J/D as far more likely than Jon/Sansa, if J/S were to happen I believe they'd have to find out they're cousins as soon as possible. They were raised as Starks, not Targs, and it would take some time to get over the reaction of "that's my brother/sister!" Basically, I think that Jon's parentage would need to be revealed to him this season, not just to Bran and the viewers, so that J/S could go almost immediately from their moment of reunion to establishing a new way of interacting as adults and cousins.

[nksarmi]

Though I don't believe in the theory as strongly as in something like Cersei burning KL, I'd probably say Jon/Dany has a fifty-fifty chance of happening. Yet I've been hoping one of the other queen theories (Sansa/Margaery/Cersei herself) turns out to be true since I have zero emotional investment in Dany showing up to beat Cersei when she's never met her and Cersei will likely have lost her children, her power, KL and Jaime before Dany ever gets to Westeros. Though I see J/D as far more likely than Jon/Sansa, if J/S were to happen I believe they'd have to find out they're cousins as soon as possible. They were raised as Starks, not Targs, and it would take some time to get over the reaction of "that's my brother/sister!" Basically, I think that Jon's parentage would need to be revealed to him this season, not just to Bran and the viewers, so that J/S could go almost immediately from their moment of reunion to establishing a new way of interacting as adults and cousins.

 

I don't know what GRRM is doing in the books, but I do believe the show has given themselves a way of doing Jon/Sansa that wouldn't gross everyone out. Jon and Sansa barely interacted as siblings and we hardly ever saw them brought up to each other in this regards.  I can't think of a time before Ramsey told her that Jon had become Lord Commander at the Wall that Sansa had even said anything in regards to Jon. 

 

In the show, Jon gave Needle to Ayra and it was mentioned numerous times (by different characters) that she would try to reach her brother at the Wall when she was on the run.  They've established the connection between Jon and Bran/Rickon to a small degree.  But in regards to Sansa, I can't even remember if the Wall was a place Brie mentioned when looking for her.  And I can't recall Jon ever talking about Sansa captivity in KL or getting any news regarding her.

 

It's almost as if they set out from the start to distance Jon and Sansa.  Now on the one hand, that seems to be the class thing that Sean C referenced regarding Sansa and let's face it, she looks her nose down a little at Arya as well (and she's her full blooded sister).  Sansa following her mother's lead and not thinking much of Jon is no surprise.  But if its intentionally done so that Jon and Sansa don't feel like siblings the way Jon/Ayra, Jon/Bran, and Jon/Robb do - the eventual pairing might be one reason why.

 

And if they keep Sansa in the North, I could see her getting the reveal of Jon's true parentage right along with Jon, Rickon, and the rest of us.  So there is a good chance that by the time that Jon and Sansa meet up again, they will have both gone from children to adults and come to discover their familiar relationship is not once they once thought it to be.  The fact that Jon seems to like red heads and that he has become exactly the "hero/true knight/etc..." that Sansa dreams of only adds weight to this speculation.

 

I must admit that I never would have considered it on my own, but I do understand why some people like the idea. 

[WearyTraveler]

For me, all of it feels icky.  Jon-Dany, Jon-Sansa.... eeewwww!

[SeanC]

      Because the fact the Boltons are still around and taking on Jon/Wildlings at the end of season 6 means that LF did not initiate his plans to attack.  I am not sure why this is so hard to understand.

 

    1. LF planned to take on the Boltons after the Boltons defeated Stannis

    2. Boltons defeated Stannis in episode 10 of season 5 and Sansa goes missing

    3. In episode 9 of season 6, the Boltons are now taking on Jon and the Wildlings

 

   If things are going well, why are the Boltons still sitting in Winterfell for almost the entirety of season 6? Where is LF and his huge Vale army?

We don't know how the story plays out.  Simple as that.  But we do know that Littlefinger's plans last season all point to invading the North, that his only filming report so far suggests he was filming at Winterfell, and that all of the story buildup for Sansa on the show has been in the North (while at the same time rendering her Vale story irrelevant).

 

And? So? Did it change anything or bring about anything monumental ?

Shifting goalposts.  It did change the story; it didn't change his season 5 plot, but it's not required that the knowledge change everything.  In comparison with Sansa, whose entire plot was pretty much junked.

 

Why would they be fighting elsewhere?

Any number of reasons?  

 

As for Ramsay, Sansa took the initiative to go talk to him instead of sitting and crying in her room.

Er, no she didn't.  Ramsay summoned her to taunt her about having foiled her escape.  She was a prisoner in her room, and could only leave when he wanted it.

 

The Sansa in the books never took the initiative to get to know Tyrion, talk to him, get information from him, use him. 

And Sansa didn't do that in the show either, with Tyrion or Ramsay.  Every single interaction she had with Ramsay was initiated by him.

 

Instead of waiting for someone to come rescue her, she tried to effect her own rescue. Awesome. 

That was not any different from Sansa's participation in her escape in King's Landing.  Somebody else gave her a plan, and she tried to execute it.

 

She confronted Theon and got the information about her brothers.

She vented her spleen at Theon, and he blurted out information she was unaware he had.

 

[1] Book Sansa would not have confronted anyone. She's too scared to.

 

[2] Show Sansa took the leap off WF's walls, even if it was dangerous and risky to do so. HER decision.

 

[3] Book Sansa was too cautious when the hound asked her to leave KL with him.

 

[4] There's a reason Arya was able to get out of KL while Sansa was still stuck there till LF got her out.

 

[5] I just like that, right or wrong, show Sansa is making the decisions here in WF and not following LF's advice and cues unlike book sansa.

 

[6] Not really, no. She was not really a bastard was she? She knew it, LF knew it. She was playing a part. She is distressed that she has to play a bastard, but that's in name only.  Very different to Jon's situation where he actually was a bastard and was limited in prospects. He lost his home when Ned left WF and the night's watch was one of the few ways he could hope to rise up in the world. Sansa is scheduled to marry the heir to the Vale.  And she's certainly more privileged than Jon, who had to put with Catelyn's hate. Sansa is for all purposes the Lady of the Vale, ordering around maesters and servants. Was Jon allowed to order around maester Luwin? Did anyone order him a 12 foot lemon cake?

 

1) Book Sansa doesn't "confront" people because it's dangerous and foolhardy to yell at people when your position is precarious.  TV Sansa used to understand that, before she started insulting Ramsay to his face for no reason.

 

2) No different from Book Sansa deciding to escape King's Landing, even though it was dangerous and risky.

 

3) You mean when the Hound, drunk and covered in blood, appeared in her room acting unstable and dangerous, then put a knife to her throat, and then vanished?  And when Sansa already had her own escape plan?

 

4) That reason being that people helped her escape.

 

5) What decisions?  Littlefinger was the one who sent her to Winterfell.  Once there, she obediently followed his plan of sitting around, until it became clear the plan wasn't going to work, at which point she followed the plan Brienne devised of trying to use the signal, at the failure of which she decided to...well, we never find out, since she's then captured by Myranda and then rescued by Theon, who initiates their escape.

 

6) You're conflating her entire experience as Alayne as if it's all happening at once.  She's certainly experienced more prestige toward the TWOW material, but that wasn't what it was like in the beginning, and regardless, you can see quite clearly that being a bastard did really influence her psychology.

Edited September 16, 2015 by SeanC

[Winnief]

I'm gonna play devil's advocate here by allowing points to all sides.

 

Yes, I think we did see some real development for "Alayne" in the books.  She's shown as being a great observer carefully scouting out the territory and her idea for the tourney and Winged Knights was a really good one.  Plus seeing her as Acting Lady of the Vale was good, (and possible foreshadowing,) but there was some expanded class consciousness as well.  Sansa seems well aware that "Alayne" must not dress too ostentatiously but rather be aware of her station, and there's considerable evidence that subconsciously at least she styled Alayne after Jon-Alayne's age being the same as Jon's when Sansa last saw him, Alayne doesn't dance like Jon, the use of the phrase "bastard bold" to describe Alayne.  (And that's a very VERY interesting angle given my J/S theory.) Also you see Sansa taking an interest in other 'lowborn' women like Mya Stone who she hopes to make a good match with Lothar. 

 

So yeah, I think we did get good development for Sansa in the Vale, (and preparation for her to slay the Titan!) eventually, but to be fair to D&D I can understand why they might have decided to scrap the Vale for various reasons such as it wasn't well connected with the other storylines at present and the fact that they couldn't afford another series of location shoots, (all that money on Hardhome and CGI dragons and I never begrudged them a penny there,) and the fact that whether you think J/S will happen or not, it's pretty clear that they're shifting the action up North for obvious reasons, and moving as many characters up there as possible helps.  So having Sansa return North did make a lot of sense-just not perhaps the way they had it happen. 

 

Now I HATED seeing Sansa violated and agree it was an atrocity of a storyline.  But I don't think that Sansa herself has been compromised as being just a stupid simpering victim.  We see her observation skills at play during dinner with the Boltons, (and I for one think she might later try to use the obvious tension about Ramsay and Walda's pregnancy to her advantage later,) she stands up to Miranda both in the bath scene and on the tower, she makes attempts to escape and finally breaks out...this is a young girl who's been horribly abused and victimized-but that doesn't necessarily make her a helpless victim.  Not if she comes back from her ordeal stronger than ever and determined to help her family re-take Winterfell and the North.

 

Amanda Marcotte one of my favorite bloggers wrote about this a lot-I don't quite agree with all her points, but she still makes an interesting case here.

 

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/05/sansa-stark-proves-the-critics-wrong-on-game-of-thrones/

 

And something else I'm throwing out that I've been wondering a little about lately...if Sansa is the YMBQ then maybe, just MAYBE part of the reason for this story arc was to once again contrast her with Cersei who besides her non-consensual wedding night with Robert also suffers a very real form of sexualized assault and humiliation this season, that might very well hope further her slide into Cuckoo Land and torch KL.  Maybe, the writers wanted to draw further comparisons between her and Sansa who's also been the victim of a Trauma Congo Line, but won't be losing her humanity or sanity.  Still didn't make it a good move to my mind, but it might help explain what in seven hells they were thinking.

 

And yeah, in retrospect Sansa seems to be the one Stark sibling we didn't see interacting much with Jon which has all sorts of implications.  I doubt she was ever cruel to him the way Cat was, but I do believe she thought it appropriate to keep him at a distance.  Besides with Sansa being such a Girly Girl, there wasn't the obvious bonding opportunities that Jon had with Arya and his 'brother's' either-he wasn't interested in dancing or needlework and he probably wasn't tremendously interested in her either.  So it will be interesting to see how they react to being re-united now that they're both all grown up.

Edited September 16, 2015 by Winnief

[SeanC]

This discussion has gotten kind of off-topic, so I suggest we call it a day on that point.

[Minneapple]

Okay, so if the show comes up wih a good way to reveal Jon's parentage and Jon/Sansa will be a big romantic pairing, the real question is: will Kit Harrington have to stand on a box when he's near Sophie Turner?

[ElizaD]

Meet the Tarlys

 

A very reliable source tells us James Faulkner, Samantha Spiro and Rebecca Benson will be joining the cast of the show, and are filming in Spain this week.

The report says that Faulkner will be playing Randyll Tarly, Sam’s famously stern and martial father. Spiro will be playing Sam’s mother, and Sam’s sister will be played by Scottish actress Rebecca Benson.

 

So Downton's Lord Sinderby gets another opportunity to act like a jerk during a fancy historical dinner. He can do cold and intimidating.

[BlackberryJam]

I think with the latest spoilers about

Jaime riding down the steps of the Sept of Baelor with Margaery as he takes her away from her imprisonment

slams us over the head with that prophecy.

Margaery took Joffrey, she's taken Tommen, she's the Queen and here Jaime is rescuing her?

Yeah...no way is Cersei's nemesis Sansa.

 

Also, hated the Vale storyline. Loved Sansa in Winterfell storyline, though I never want to see a character raped. The story wasn't "Sansa gets raped" though. The story was "Sansa gets a clue and tries, even though as a Stark she's destined to fail miserably." She was suddenly less of an annoying, drippy twit. She acted with purpose and forethought. Loved it. But she's not Cersei's nemesis. Cersei's downfall is going to happen long before Sansa makes it south again.

Edited September 16, 2015 by BlackberryJam

[Hecate7]

For me, all of it feels icky.  Jon-Dany, Jon-Sansa.... eeewwww!

 

 

I suspect this is a stronger reaction in people from close-knit families. I guess I'm so used to medieval and Renaissance royal marriages, that aunt-nephew or cousin doesn't even phase me. Jon and Sansa were never brother and sister, not even half-brother and sister. He was her cousin all along. Littlefinger is her uncle, and nobody minds if she marries him. Robin Arryn is her cousin and her aunt was all about getting them married to each other.

[Lady S.]

Littlefinger is her uncle, and nobody minds if she marries him. Robin Arryn is her cousin and her aunt was all about getting them married to each other.

Littlefinger is only her uncle by marriage as he was married to her aunt.

[WearyTraveler]

I don't know, I'm not that close to my cousins and I still think it's icky.

 

I understand this is supposed to depict a medieval world and that in this society such marriages were socially acceptable, so, I'm not discounting either one could happen.  I'm just saying they are disgusting to me.  I have a feeling I wouldn't be alone on that one, too.

[benteen]

The rest of Sam's family has been cast.  I'm not familiar with James Faulkner but his severe look is perfect.  Seriously, his look just screams Randyll Tarly and he has a great resume.

 

http://winteriscoming.net/2015/09/16/the-remaining-members-of-the-tarly-family-have-been-cast/

Edited September 17, 2015 by benteen

[anamika]

We don't know how the story plays out.  Simple as that.  But we do know that Littlefinger's plans last season all point to invading the North, that his only filming report so far suggests he was filming at Winterfell, and that all of the story buildup for Sansa on the show has been in the North (while at the same time rendering her Vale story irrelevant).

    

         Exactly. We don't know how the story plays out. We can only speculate at this point. LF was heading to WF in his teleporter in episode 5 or 6 in season 5. He would have got there by the beginning of season 6. From the spoilers, we have, I speculate the following. Namely

 

          1. Since the Boltons are sitting in WF for the entirety of season 6, LF does not attack

          2. It makes no sense for LF to stay in WF for 9 episodes of season 6 without Sansa around

          3. I don't see Sansa going back to WF and Ramsay again. That story is done

          4. I see LF going back to the south

          5. Since LF and Sansa's story seem to be entwined together, I see Sansa going back with him

 

   Saying that ' all of the story buildup for Sansa on the show has been in the North' is the equivalent of saying that ' all of the story build up for Jaime on the show has been in Dorne'. We don't know if there's anything left to play out in her Vale storyline, unless GRRM comes out with the next book where he is supposedly starting a new story arc for her. Does she end up colluding with LF to kill SweetRobin and marry Harry? Does the Blackfish end up there. Does Shadrich try to take her to KL? Does he succeed?

 

Shifting goalposts.  It did change the story; it didn't change his season 5 plot, but it's not required that the knowledge change everything.  In comparison with Sansa, whose entire plot was pretty much junked.

     

      Er, no. It did not change the story. Jon made a detour for one episode to give us some action and then went on as usual. How did it change Jon's story? And let's also remember that Jon went to Craster's keep to get rid of the mutineers, not to find Bran. Did he run around searching for Bran? He killed the mutineers and went back, never even acknowledging that Bran might be there. It was Bran trying to make it to Jon, not the other way around. Sam telling Jon about Bran did nothing to the story.

 

Any number of reasons? 

 

         And what do you think those reasons might be?

 

Er, no she didn't.  Ramsay summoned her to taunt her about having foiled her escape.  She was a prisoner in her room, and could only leave when he wanted it.

 

      Er, and she could have not done anything about it, instead of engaging Ramsay in conversation, and talking about his status as a bastard which gave her the tidbit about Jon. And she ended up escaping her prison even when he did not want it, didn't she?

 

And Sansa didn't do that in the show either, with Tyrion or Ramsay.  Every single interaction she had with Ramsay was initiated by him

 

       If you can't see the difference between the way Sansa interacted in the books with Tyrion and the way she interacted with Ramsay in the show, then I sugggest you read her chapters and watch her scenes again. Did she pick up a corkscrew before she interacted with Tyrion? Did she taunt Tyrion about being an imp? Her taunting Ramsay about being a bastard, was what provoked him telling her about Jon. Her engaging in conversation with him, was what got her that information.

 

That was not any different from Sansa's participation in her escape in King's Landing.  Somebody else gave her a plan, and she tried to execute it.

 

     Wait, Dontos asked her to jump from castle walls into a snow drift and escape into a harsh winter environment? I must have been watching a different show. Theon asking her to jump  was a more risky deal than what she was offered in KL. And she took it. Compare that to Sansa sitting in the Vale and thinking about how, even though she could escape, she had nowhere to go. Show Sansa TRIED and took the leap of faith. Literally. 

 

She vented her spleen at Theon, and he blurted out information she was unaware he had.

 

       I see. So even though she confronts Theon about his betrayal and inability to help her and he ends up telling her about her brothers, it's not because of anything Sansa did. It just happened. Magically. So we should not give Sansa any credit here.

 

1) Book Sansa doesn't "confront" people because it's dangerous and foolhardy to yell at people when your position is precarious.  TV Sansa used to understand that, before she started insulting Ramsay to his face for no reason.

 

2) No different from Book Sansa deciding to escape King's Landing, even though it was dangerous and risky.

 

3) You mean when the Hound, drunk and covered in blood, appeared in her room acting unstable and dangerous, then put a knife to her throat, and then vanished?  And when Sansa already had her own escape plan?

 

4) That reason being that people helped her escape.

 

5) What decisions?  Littlefinger was the one who sent her to Winterfell.  Once there, she obediently followed his plan of sitting around, until it became clear the plan wasn't going to work, at which point she followed the plan Brienne devised of trying to use the signal, at the failure of which she decided to...well, we never find out, since she's then captured by Myranda and then rescued by Theon, who initiates their escape.

 

6) You're conflating her entire experience as Alayne as if it's all happening at once.  She's certainly experienced more prestige toward the TWOW material, but that wasn't what it was like in the beginning, and regardless, you can see quite clearly that being a bastard did really influence her psychology.

 

                1. And yet Sansa did get information about her brothers and nothing happened to her after her confrontation with Theon. And Ramsay did not order her head chopped off or anything. She got about the same abuse from Ramsay as she might have got from Joffrey if she had married him in the books. Despite being the 'good girl' in KL, she got beaten up. The only reason book Sansa survived was because she was a Stark. The same reason the Boltons are keeping her alive. Book Sansa does not confront anyone, even the Vale lords, because she's too scared to even speak up.

 

            2. Not as risky as jumping from the walls of winterfell and escaping into a harsh winter. And in the books, Dontos gained her trust and told her about ships and stuff. It was planned. Jumping with Theon was the equivalent of going with the hound. Which she refused in the books.

 

           3.  Yes. Are you saying that going with the Hound would have been worse than staying in KL? Getting beaten up and forcefully married off? Possibly raped?  She may have got to her family with the Hound. It was risky. Just as risky as jumping with Theon. But she took that risk this time.

 

           4.  And Arya took that help. Unlike Book Sansa. Who refused because she was too scared to. She is no longer that scared or cautious. She can take risks. Just like Arya, when she took a chance and a risk making her way out of KL and even having to kill someone herself to get out. Instead of sitting there, waiting for Lannister men to come get her.

 

           5.  And LF gave her a choice. She made the choice to do it. Once she realized that being married to Ramsay was not fun, she wanted out. She made the decision to get out. She tried to enroll Theon to light the candle. Sansa HIRED someone to light the candle because she was stuck in her room. That is called thinking, planning and carrying out an action. By HERSELF. Has she ever done this in the books? I like how Sansa fans whine about her having no agency. But when she does get some agency and she actually DOES stuff, they discredit it. Eh, she was just yelling. Eh, she would have got her head chopped off by snarking to Ramsay. Eh, she never actually did anything. It's like they want her to do NOTHING. Apparently because it's safer or something. That's book Sansa's thinking. And it's never worked to her advantage.

 

         6. She felt bad that she is a bastard. Towards the beginning. She did not feel bad because someone treated her like shit because she was a bastard. No one did that. She just did not like being one. I don't see how that's making her confront class prejudice. That's just reinforcing it. And she had no choice but to interact with people like Mya and Myranda. Even in AFfC no one treated her differently because she was a bastard. She had the run of the house.

Edited September 17, 2015 by anamika

[WearyTraveler]

I can see LF going south, which is why I posited that if he's going to make a move with the Vale's army, it could be one in support of Olenna and the Tyrells.

 

But I don't see Sansa going back south at all.

 

Another possibility that is likely is that we don't see LF until much later.  It's not uncommon for characters to disappear for long stretches.  After the battle in episode 9, we could see LF's next move.  He wouldn't have done much this season, if my speculation is true, but that would be fine. 

 

Now, since I think the show is moving characters to their eventual ending point in the series, according to what Martin revealed to the showrunners regarding everyone's fates, and that the books will eventually move Sansa North, I don't see D&D taking Sansa back south again.  Add to that the lack of any casting news for Vale characters, and the casting news for Tarly characters, and I think it's clear that the show will not be doing any Vale related storylines this year.  There would be no time for it.

 

I think it's much more likely that Sansa will stay North and reunite with Rickon, asking Brienne to go look for Arya, which would move Brienne South to meet with Jaime.

 

Since LF's stated plans are to take the North, I think he will eventually make that move, whether he makes that move in season 6 or season 7 is yet to be seen.  I think Sansa will "slay the giant" as was prophesized, and this will happen in the North.  Perhaps when LF returns there, confident that Sansa is his ally, only to discover that she finally has his number and is aware of his role in her family's tragedy.

 

I think one way Sansa can find out about Petyr's involvement in the Red Wedding (and maybe Ned's capture) is if she interacts with people like the Umbers (where Rickon is on the show), who were involved in the war and presumably know better of the events that took place in KL when Sansa was kept locked up by Cersei.  No one in the Vale (on the show) can provide this information for her.

Edited September 17, 2015 by WearyTraveler

[SeanC]

Exactly. We don't know how the story plays out.   

I'm going to focus on this part of the post since, like I said, the discussion about the merits of Season 5 has gotten off-topic.

 

3. I don't see Sansa going back to WF and Ramsay again. That story is done

Except we have clear filming reports of Sophie Turner filming at Winterfell.   

 

4. I see LF going back to the south

Why would Littlefinger go back south if he has Sansa and an army with him in the North?

 

Saying that ' all of the story buildup for Sansa on the show has been in the North' is the equivalent of saying that ' all of the story build up for Jaime on the show has been in Dorne'.

It's not, though, because Jaime left Dorne at the end of the season, he has obvious unresolved story elements and new setup elsewhere, we have filming information placing him outside of Dorne, and we have plentiful casting information and, indeed, actual WOTW confirmation, that he will be going to the Riverlands.

 

We don't know if there's anything left to play out in her Vale storyline, unless GRRM comes out with the next book where he is supposedly starting a new story arc for her. Does she end up colluding with LF to kill SweetRobin and marry Harry? Does the Blackfish end up there. Does Shadrich try to take her to KL? Does he succeed?

But we do know that the show's changes have rendered the Vale storyline setup non-existent.  There is no "Alayne Stone", and her identity is known to all the major players there.  There is no conflict between Littlefinger and the Lords Declarant.  There is no point to killing Robert and marrying Harry, since the point of that is to gain control of the Vale and make use of their forces elsewhere (most particularly, in the North), and Littlefinger on the show has already done that.  Further, there has been absolutely no focus on Sansa's relationship with Robin, which is what would give that story weight, and Sansa on the show is now in a consummated marriage to Ramsay, meaning she cannot marry anybody else until he is dead (even if she was inclined to).  And, again, doing the Vale storyline would require significant new castings, of which there has been not the slightest trace.  There's no Harry, no Shadrich (since you bring him up), no other characters from the Vale, no sign of Sophie doing any filming in southerly areas (and that filming is underway right now), nothing, really.

 

Another possibility that is likely is that we don't see LF until much later.  It's not uncommon for characters to disappear for long stretches.  After the battle in episode 9, we could see LF's next move.  He wouldn't have done much this season, if my speculation is true, but that would be fine. 

Given the way that many characters seem to be being kept in one location toward midseason at least when we know they end up elsewhere by the end (Arya, Jaime), I'd guess it's possible he remains in KL longer, and only arrives in the North toward the end, setting up a new dynamic for the following year.

 

I think one way Sansa can find out about Petyr's involvement in the Red Wedding 

Littlefinger wasn't involved in the Red Wedding.

Edited September 17, 2015 by SeanC

[WearyTraveler]

Littlefinger wasn't involved in the Red Wedding.

 

In the books it's not very clear, but he did go to visit Tywin in Harrenhal on the show.  I think the show was trying to say that he had some participation in that plot, by brokering alliances, maybe.  But yes, not 100% confirmed, so,  I could be wrong about that.  But I think the show loves so much LF as a villain that it makes sense to them to have LF play a part in it, however small that might have been.

[SeanC]

He visited Harrenhal to talk about the Tyrells.  Outreach to the Freys would not even have been contemplated at that point, since Robb hadn't broken his marriage alliance.

[WearyTraveler]

Like I said, I could be wrong.  But I still think LF could have had something to do with all of it.  Or might have been aware of Tywin's plan to negotiate with the Boltons.  Tywin was writing letters in Harrenhal, even though Robb had not broken his promise yet.

 

I think we are meant to think that Tywin actually wrote to his Lords in the Westerlands and offered them something if they compromised Robb, then he brokered an alliance with the Tyrells through LF, so, they'd come to the rescue when Stannis attacked KL, while at the same time courting the Freys and the Boltons.  We're talking Westeros here.  It would have taken several birds flying back and forth to set up the Red Wedding.  Not all of which could have been done so quickly after Robb's mistake, IMO.

 

I think Tywin was talking to Robb's more malleable, power-hungry supporters (namely the Freys and the Boltons) way before Robb slept with Jeynne.  And LF could have provided Tywin the intelligence or the contacts to reach out and do just that.

 

But, like I said, I'm willing to concede is not a fact in the books or the show just yet and that it may never well be.

[SeanC]

WOTW:  The Tower of Joy will be filming soon in Spain, and there's a few more details from the ongoing Saintfield filming, where "several" armies are participating.  Apparently Kit and Iwan are filming this week.

 

The Emmys are this Sunday, with presumably much of the cast going, so expect lots of interviews where absolutely no information about the next season is conveyed.

Edited September 18, 2015 by SeanC

[SeanC]

WOTW:  Two new minor castings, both for non-white actors, so most likely Essosi.  A young widow (probably a member of the Dosh Khaleen) and a young warrior (probably Dothraki).

[WearyTraveler]

The Dothraki and the Ironborn... two things I'm definitely not looking forward to in the next season, but well, I'll enjoy all the Northern goodness that seems to be coming our way too.

[SeanC]

Honestly, I think there's a lot of potential in this Dany story, in that it could be a lot more character-based than anything we've seen with her since season 1, and hopefully more focused on her (as long as they don't turn it into a story about how she needs to be rescued by Jorah and Daario).

[WearyTraveler]

Well, it's certainly possible as they are either completely off book or working with knowledge of WoW.  We'll see.  I don't have high hopes though.  On the bright side, if the story is good I'll be pleasantly surprised.

[nksarmi]

Well honestly, I have been more or less bored with Dany's story since she decided to settle in Meereen (in books and show).  So bored that I was thrilled just to see her interact with Tyrion.  I suppose a new story will at least be full of surprises, but dang it, she really needs to get her dragons and get to Westerous if they want me to care about her at all.

Edited September 20, 2015 by nksarmi