Season 6: Info, Casting and Spoilers

[SeanC]

606 promo:

1. Meera haulin' ass (and Bran) whilst pursued by ravening monsters.
2. Sam and Gilly at Horn Hill.
3. Margaery on the steps of the Great Sept + Tyrell Army + Cersei's speech from the trailer.
4. Dany and Daario (rather uneventful for a trailer compared to the rest).

Edited May 23, 2016 by SeanC

[Eyes High]

4 minutes ago, SeanC said:

606 promo:

1. Meera haulin' ass (and Bran) from the ravening monsters.
2. Sam and Gilly at Horn Hill.
3. Margaery on the steps of the Great Sept + Tyrell Army + Cersei's speech from the trailer.
4. Dany and Daario (rather uneventful for a trailer compared to the rest).

Those are four storylines. We also know that there will be another young Ned flashback and more of the Arya theatre troupe storyline (the "difficult choice" being, I'm guessing, killing someone she doesn't want to kill). The "old foe" mention could be any number of things.

Could Meereen be a storyline sitting out 6x06?

Edited May 23, 2016 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

2 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Could Meereen be a storyline sitting out 6x06?

There's been a suspicious uptick in Meereen's episode count this season so far, even though Dany isn't there.  Hmm...I wonder what the reason could be?

In all seriousness, it's certainly possible.  I'm not even really sure what Dany is supposed to be doing between now and the finale.

[Umbelina]

I'm counting on the "old foe" being

Spoiler

The Hound, fast forwarding his I'm sure more interesting story in the books.

He's one of my favorite characters.

[Oscirus]

Yea definitely looks like Mereen is sitting out. Tyrion pretty much did everything he could over there.

[CofCinci]

With what Sansa said to LF about still feeling Ramsey inside of her, I worry she is pregnant. Perhaps that is why Ramsey is kept alive?'

[Eyes High]

3 hours ago, CofCinci said:

With what Sansa said to LF about still feeling Ramsey inside of her, I worry she is pregnant. Perhaps that is why Ramsey is kept alive?'

It's not clear how much time has passed since Sansa's escape, but Sansa seems way too chipper for someone worrying about the possibility of carrying a psychopath's rape baby. She's probably gotten her period since escaping Winterfell. 

With that said, there was a reminder in 6x05 that Ramsay was trying to get Sansa pregnant in her conversation with Littlefinger, and this season there's not much "spare" dialogue apart from Tyrion scenes, so who knows?

In all seriousness, it's certainly possible.  I'm not even really sure what Dany is supposed to be doing between now and the finale.

The whole Meereen plotline feels like it's been treading water: awkward conversation here, Tyrion dragon scene there, etc. etc. I realize that D&D are just coming up with stuff for the lead to do until Dany gets back, but having Meereen featured in the first five eps has felt really unnecessary. I really hope it's headed somewhere good.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Eyes High

[Lady S.]

4 hours ago, Umbelina said:

So, I guess we can talk again.

Did anyone compile the list from the source who spoiled the Children of the Forest creating the White Walkers or other things we saw in this episode.  Obviously, that guy was legit, so I'd love to read a comprehensive list of all he spoiled.  For example was that person the one that told us

  Hide contents

there is a MacGuffin the White Walkers want somewhere in King's Landing?

What else? 

No, that was 4chan. And not DMT's earlier 4chan leak, this one read more like someone's fanfic endgame.

[Edith]

Sansa is pregnant, isn't she? And we're going to see Stark vs Stark...

Officially team white walkers! Screw them all... 

RIP Hodor and Summer to good to be helping that dumb kid

Edited May 23, 2016 by Edith

[amandawoods]

I don't think we're going to see Stark vs Stark.  Spoiler reports say that Sansa is supporting Jon as King of the North.  Littlefinger will probably try to pit her against Jon, and they're might be some arguments, but I don't think it will work.  I know spoilers indicate that Littlefinger is alive at least up until the last episode this season.  Bummer.  I'm hoping that Sansa tells Jon why she didn't tell him about Littlefinger and Vale's support.  We haven't gotten that quote from the trailer about "how it's all I think about, what they took from me." 

This is far in the future but I think we will see a scene with Dany and Jon with Tyrion/Sansa being the link between the two.  I know that Jon has met Tyrion before, but Tyrion and Sansa have got to meet each other again.  

Wasn't there a spoiler about Oleanna being in Dorne awhile back, does anyone know why that would happen?

[Chris24601]

12 hours ago, CofCinci said:

With what Sansa said to LF about still feeling Ramsey inside of her, I worry she is pregnant. Perhaps that is why Ramsey is kept alive?'

Nah... that'd be even more reason to kill him so he never gets a chance to influence his spawn.

I took it to mean that Ramsey actually tortured Sansa far more severely than we were shown last year. When she kept pressing Littlefinger about 'what else' Ramsey did beyond rape and beatings, and when Littlefinger suggested that Ramsey also cut her and she STILL said "what else?" that its going well and beyond the level of horror we were already thinking. I'm thinking all the very concealing clothes aren't to hide a pregnancy, but just how much damage Ramsey did to her that she hasn't shared with ANYONE yet.

I'm thinking that down the line Sophie will be given a nude (or semi-nude) scene with the ostensible purpose of displaying the scars Sansa now carries in places a dress wouldn't reveal (i.e. in line with Dany and Mel's nudity this season both having an actual story purpose beyond mere titillation). My hunch is we're going to be wondering how she's not just curled up in a ball somewhere because of how much pain she's NOT been revealing behind her stoic queen facade.

ETA: My take on Schrodinger's Ramsey (is he alive or dead?) is that Jon won't kill him during the battle in episode 9, but that he'll be executed in episode 10 by being thrown to his own dogs. Since the two spoiler sources otherwise agree on so much, my take is one person spoiled JUST episode 9 (Ramsey not killed) while the other spoiled through the end of the season (Ramsey executed in the next episode).

Edited May 23, 2016 by Chris24601

[SeanC]

At the present, four actors have appeared in all five episodes to date:  Kit Harington, Peter Dinklage, Conleth Hill, and Ben Crompton.  Crompton, one presumes, won't be around much for the remainder.  The other three's status in episode 6 is ambiguous, since we've got six storylines confirmed for episode 6 (KL, Braavos, Meereen, Dothraki Sea, Oldtown, Beyond the Wall).  They could all be knocked out of the running next Sunday.

Edit:  Actually, if the "old foe" is Walder Frey, as widely speculated, that would presumably be seven locations for 606.  Unless Walder shows up in KL demanding help against the Tullys.

Edited May 23, 2016 by SeanC

[amandawoods]

Regarding the whole does Ramsay die or not.  The guy who worked on set said that he died.  He also seems pretty positive about it on reddit.  I also read something on reddit sorry I can't find it now that Jon does imprison Ramsay, but Littlefinger ends up killing Ramsay with his own dogs.  I hoped that Jon would do the killing, but I could see Littlefinger trying to gain favor from Sansa by doing this.  

[SeanC]

On the question of whether Ramsay dies, spoilers aside, what possibly dramatic or real-world purpose would be served by keeping him alive?

[maraleia]

On 5/20/2016 at 3:32 PM, Umbelina said:

Yeah, but I'm totally cool with a cliff notes version, actually I'm thrilled with one.

GRRM is lousy at self editing, and either doesn't have, bullies, or ignores the editor(s) he or the publisher does have.  The adulation he's been getting for years has completely gone to his head, and the money makes it an option about writing or not writing.   He's so delusional that he wanted HBO to just halt production for a while, ignoring the real world (something he doesn't seem to understand) needs of HBO, and the fact they can't wait for when and if he ever actually finishes, let alone have Cersei in a walker, and Bran sporting grey hair and a pot belly, while Arya finally completes her training as a middle aged woman.

I'm confident that the ending will be close enough to his intentions when he signed with HBO, because reportedly they only signed after he disclosed the ending (smart move.)  Now would he have changed his mind on that ending, or WILL he out of petulance or because some knew shiny thing captures his attention and he decides to introduce Aliens or Elves from Uthros, or some Fairies from the City of the Winged Men?  Sure.  That's entirely possible, let's just hope he isn't suddenly fascinated by Robots.  Meanwhile, we will get, definitely without as many Red Shirts, red-herrings, or bells and whistles, the ending he intended.

It won't hurt his book sales.  People will still want to read his official story, perhaps even more, because they DO have an ending out there.  That is, if he ever concludes this on his own, which I seriously doubt.

ETA

If he wanted to be cooperative, I'm sure he could get a few of things he considers important on the screen, but I think he's unwilling to help them at this point, but who knows?  I could be wrong, and he is.  It just doesn't sound like him to do that.  He seems more interested in getting them to do Dunk and Egg, so it's possibly he'll help them with the ending more than I think, and it's equally possible the HBO guys say "Yeah, no, we've already scheduled everything, we'll complete this the way we originally decided.  No Fairies, no space men, and we're killing off the pirates as soon as we can too.

Both GRRM and Diana Galbadon need editors pronto because their books are way too long for no reason at all. The one thing that Diana has going for her is she can write anywhere which is why she's on book nine and GRRM is still on book six.

[GrailKing]

On 5/22/2016 at 7:14 AM, Eyes High said:  To be fair to Sansa, pretty much everyone she's ever trusted for the first five seasons has either betrayed her outright or fucked her over in some way. It's not surprising that after the initial euphoria of being reunited with Jon wore off, she would start to have doubts about him.

==================================================================================

 

I don't think she has doubts about Jon at all, but she can't be sure of Davos or Mel; especially when she heard about, Jon,Renly's death or resurrection.I think she also may try and keep Jon and others from getting to close to LF.??

Edited May 23, 2016 by GrailKing

[Eyes High]

I would feel really uncomfortable if Sophie Turner did a nude or even half-nude scene on GOT, given that she has grown up on the show. It's different for Emilia, who did nudity in her first episode and who was an adult when she was hired. 

Given that the show tends to tone down the books, I'd be surprised if Sansa had worse physical damage than Jeyne. As for LF's question "Did he cut you?", Sansa doesn't answer it and instead states that the "other things" he did are things brothel keepers would know all about. That suggests to me at least that the abuse was beatings and sexual abuse. TV Sansa having a mass of scars seems unlikely.

[SeanC]

Regarding the stuff with Littlefinger and Sansa, I half-wonder if this is meant to be a tension-raiser for the climactic battle this season.  From the assorted spoilers, Sansa arrives with the Arryns, who are later than expected.  Maybe the show wants people to wonder whether the Arryn forces are going to appear at all, since their arrival at the end is quite cliche otherwise?

EDIT:  Actually, on the further subject of possible Jon/Sansa tension in Season 7, how does Bran fit into all this?  I mean, he has to come back, right?  They just killed off virtually his entire supporting cast, so I'm not sure where else he'd end up.

Edited May 23, 2016 by SeanC

[GrailKing]

12 minutes ago, Eyes High said:I would feel really uncomfortable if Sophie Turner did a nude or even half-nude scene on GOT, given that she has grown up on the show. It's different for Emilia, who did nudity in her first episode and who was an adult when she was hired. Given that the show tends to tone down the books, I'd be surprised if Sansa had worse physical damage than Jeyne. As for LF's question "Did he cut you?", Sansa doesn't answer it and instead states that the "other things" he did are things brothel keepers would know all about. That suggests to me at least that the abuse was beatings and sexual abuse. TV Sansa having a mass of scars seems unlikely.

==============================================================================

Well LF knows what happens in brothels, but Sansa wasn't in a brothel, she was in a chamber of horrors, she doesn't suffer frost bite, but scars can be hidden from people, both mental and physical and I could see some sort of reveal, maybe he branded her, or something else.?

 

On a side note totally away from GOT; I'm trying out this new Vivaldi browser and like it, I'm doing 3 forums at the same time as it allows pane splitting. 

Edited May 23, 2016 by GrailKing

[Edith]

40 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Regarding the stuff with Littlefinger and Sansa, I half-wonder if this is meant to be a tension-raiser for the climactic battle this season.  From the assorted spoilers, Sansa arrives with the Arryns, who are later than expected.  Maybe the show wants people to wonder whether the Arryn forces are going to appear at all, since their arrival at the end is quite cliche otherwise?

EDIT:  Actually, on the further subject of possible Jon/Sansa tension in Season 7, how does Bran fit into all this?  I mean, he has to come back, right?  They just killed off virtually his entire supporting cast, so I'm not sure where else he'd end up.

Maybe they do exactly as Littlefinger said in season 5? That way Sansa gets to be Warden of the north with an army only loyal to her. 

[SeanC]

Just now, Edith said:

Maybe they do exactly as Littlefinger said in season 5? That way Sansa gets to be Warden of the north with an army only loyal to her. 

They couldn't do that, though, since Jon would be dead as a result.

[Eyes High]

44 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Regarding the stuff with Littlefinger and Sansa, I half-wonder if this is meant to be a tension-raiser for the climactic battle this season.  From the assorted spoilers, Sansa arrives with the Arryns, who are later than expected.  Maybe the show wants people to wonder whether the Arryn forces are going to appear at all, since their arrival at the end is quite cliche otherwise?

EDIT:  Actually, on the further subject of possible Jon/Sansa tension in Season 7, how does Bran fit into all this?  I mean, he has to come back, right?  They just killed off virtually his entire supporting cast, so I'm not sure where else he'd end up.

It seems as if the arrival of the Vale forces later than expected could provide a source of tension between Jon and Sansa, especially if he suspects that LF and Sansa took their sweet time getting there on purpose.

Bran:

Spoiler

Truede says he gets to the Wall courtesy of Benjen, and if the R+L=J revelation happens in Episode 10, that would give Bran even more reason to seek out Jon.

[Edith]

2 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

It seems as if the arrival of the Vale forces later than expected could provide a source of tension between Jon and Sansa, especially if he suspects that LF and Sansa took their sweet time getting there on purpose.

Bran:

  Hide contents

Truede says he gets to the Wall courtesy of Benjen, and if the R+L=J revelation happens in Episode 10, that would give Bran even more reason to seek out Jon.

That's what I mean! That L&S wait till the very end to wear down Jon/Ramsay army. That way Jon and company has not other option but to accept Sansa as warden.

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

I would feel really uncomfortable if Sophie Turner did a nude or even half-nude scene on GOT, given that she has grown up on the show. It's different for Emilia, who did nudity in her first episode and who was an adult when she was hired. 

They could easily use a body double.

[Eyes High]

18 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

They could easily use a body double.

I guess, but even implying Sansa nudity seems exploitative to me for some reason. I got the impression that "Sansa" baring her breasts in 6x05 was D&D making fun of all the fanboys who have been openly clamouring for a Sansa nude scene for years, like "We got your Sansa nude scene right here, assholes."

TV Sansa's body being super fucked up with scars and such in addition to TV Sansa's rapes seems a bridge too far when compared to Book Sansa, who is not only a virgin and likely to remain that way for the foreseeable future but who lacks any physical disfigurement that we know of. Ditto for a pregnancy, unless Book Sansa is also supposed to get knocked up in the Vale (which seems unlikely). If TV Sansa is supposed to get back "on track" with her book self's storyline, D&D can't take TV Sansa too far off-course, which I think a pregnancy would (unless TV Sansa miscarries or unless Book Sansa is supposed to get pregnant as well). It also seems particularly cruel to mangle TV Sansa giving her a bunch of non-book mutilations when TV Tyrion escaped losing a nose and the other main characters have toned-down versions of their scars from the books (Jon, the Hound, etc.).

Edited May 23, 2016 by Eyes High

[nksarmi]

I may have missed something - is there a confirmed spoiler for "tension" between Sansa and Jon? And if here is, do we have any reason to believe it will be for who gets power? I mean, it seems to me that Jon has ZERO desire for power and he would support Rickon or Sansa over himself. But it also seems to me that while Sansa wants WF back, she likely does not want to lead the North so she might easily give leadership to Jon. Seriously, if they fight at all - I think it would be a "you take it, no YOU take it" kind of thing.

And I really don't think LF is going to be able to play Sansa and Jon against each other. Even though Jon has no reason to distrust LF - I think he would always be loyal to Sansa. And Sansa has MANY reasons to distrust LF and put her faith in Jon. And even though Mel is very quiet now - I think she has more real power that LF can imagine and she can probably shut him down as easily as her mirror shut Varys down in Meereen.

And for the record - I don't think LF was even trying to pit Sansa against Jon exactly. I think he was trying to remind her that Jon is a bastard and she would have to use her name and her claim and that maybe his army wouldn't be enough. Ie. he was trying to make her feel like she still needed him (LF) which may eventually work. I hope LF will eventually be found out and dealt with by Jon and Sansa but I would be very surprised if it happened this season.

[Hecate7]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I would feel really uncomfortable if Sophie Turner did a nude or even half-nude scene on GOT, given that she has grown up on the show. It's different for Emilia, who did nudity in her first episode and who was an adult when she was hired. 

Given that the show tends to tone down the books, I'd be surprised if Sansa had worse physical damage than Jeyne. As for LF's question "Did he cut you?", Sansa doesn't answer it and instead states that the "other things" he did are things brothel keepers would know all about. That suggests to me at least that the abuse was beatings and sexual abuse. TV Sansa having a mass of scars seems unlikely.

Ramsey has a fetish for dismemberment and removal of body parts. That's all I'm going to say, but I think Sansa made it fairly obvious what he did that she can "still feel."

Given that Littlefinger lied so blatantly to Royce last episode, it's clear he was not counting on Sansa returning to tell her side of the story. So, he knew all about Ramsey.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Hecate7

[SeanC]

29 minutes ago, nksarmi said:

I may have missed something - is there a confirmed spoiler for "tension" between Sansa and Jon?

No, nothing confirmed.  We're just speculating based on 605.  It's possible it's a tease for story in Season 7, it's also possible that it's a little internal frisson that will be basically sorted out this season.

Spoiler

Jon is supposedly crowned king this season, apparently with Sansa's support, so maybe that's part of her arc?  It's probably a thread Littlefinger may continue to pick on, though one of the reasons I brought up Bran's return -- supposedly he gets to the Wall, and you'd have to assume he's in Winterfell next season -- is that the whole "half-brother" tension seems like it should be substantially defused with Bran around, both on an interpersonal level (everyone loves Bran!) and because Bran's claim also trumps Sansa's.

Looking back over those deleted Reddit spoilers, a few things stood out:

Jon does become King of the North. This is after the teen girl who is head of some house (with like 60 soldiers) speaks up about how she trusts the Starks and was one of the only ones to follow them into battle. Then the other houses speak up and apologize about not following them and they don't care that he is a bastard. *Ah sorry for not explaining basically the conspiracy is the idea that the Umbers gave the Bolton Rickon to get their trust and then side with Jon in the war, depleting Ramsay's forces. BTW I'm pretty sure the girl your talking about is the head of House Mormont. BTW does Sansa legitimize Jon as a stark? *Ok then there's no conspiracy. Might've be House Mormont. The recruiting scene is pretty funny as Jon, Sansa, and Davos make these great speeches on why she should join them only to find out she has less than 100 men. Don't think Sansa legitimizes Jon but she is agreement that he should be King.

1)  This seems to go against what many people, myself included, had been assuming, that there'd be some big summit of Northern lords at Bear Island. It sounds like their meeting with Lady Lyanna is only about the Mormonts.  But we also know there's an actor playing a Manderly-type character who gives a dramatic speech about changing sides, even though his men don't actually appear to be at the battle (perhaps they don't make it in time?).  I guess that could be a separate scene.

2)  Evidently Lady Lyanna is a multi-episode character, as she appears both before and after the battle.  

Edited May 23, 2016 by SeanC

[amandawoods]

Quote

I may have missed something - is there a confirmed spoiler for "tension" between Sansa and Jon?

In the Inside the Episode, they did say that Littlefinger still has a hold on her, and she doesn't trust Jon completely yet.  Also, Sophie mentioned something about sibling rivalry.  But none of the spoilers for the coming episodes mentions Sansa not wanting Jon to be King of the North when that happens at the end of the season.  I could see Littlefinger pulling a move like being late and waiting until the best possible time for him to join the battle, but not Sansa willingly.   I think the audience is supposed to doubt that they are going to make it all.  

Man, I want Bran meeting Davos, Mel, Littlefinger like now.  I have no idea how that would go.  

Edited May 23, 2016 by amandawoods

[FemmyV]

On 5/22/2016 at 0:07 PM, Eyes High said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Agreed. I don't see any other way you can read 6x05. Littlefinger has already started undermining Sansa's trust in Jon by reminding her that he's only her half-brother (and, he seemed to be hinting, a bastard and therefore untrustworthy), and it seems to be working: Sansa lied to him about meeting with Littlefinger, and Jon seemed suspicious about where Sansa had acquired the information about Riverrun.

This episode seemed to be pointing away from Jon/Sansa and setting up a rivalry between them, in my opinion. We got the goopy, shmoopy reunion in 6x04 because it's all downhill from here. Jon doesn't need to want to usurp Sansa's claim to Winterfell (and I doubt that he does); Sansa just needs to believe him capable of it. Littlefinger probably knows that Jon is the biggest threat to his control over Sansa; Littlefinger knows that if Sansa has someone else she can rely on for protection, she won't need him anymore. If he manages to find his way back into Sansa's life, I fully expect he will do his utmost to convince Sansa that Jon is untrustworthy or even a threat to her. Whether it works is another matter, but 6x05 did not encourage me.

I expect LF wants to convince Sansa that Jon isn't entirely capable of protecting Sansa. If spoilers are true, that he

Spoiler

waits until Jon's troops are nearly exhausted,

that adds to his case.

On 5/22/2016 at 0:07 PM, Eyes High said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Agreed. I don't see any other way you can read 6x05. Littlefinger has already started undermining Sansa's trust in Jon by reminding her that he's only her half-brother (and, he seemed to be hinting, a bastard and therefore untrustworthy), and it seems to be working: Sansa lied to him about meeting with Littlefinger, and Jon seemed suspicious about where Sansa had acquired the information about Riverrun.

This episode seemed to be pointing away from Jon/Sansa and setting up a rivalry between them, in my opinion. We got the goopy, shmoopy reunion in 6x04 because it's all downhill from here. Jon doesn't need to want to usurp Sansa's claim to Winterfell (and I doubt that he does); Sansa just needs to believe him capable of it. Littlefinger probably knows that Jon is the biggest threat to his control over Sansa; Littlefinger knows that if Sansa has someone else she can rely on for protection, she won't need him anymore. If he manages to find his way back into Sansa's life, I fully expect he will do his utmost to convince Sansa that Jon is untrustworthy or even a threat to her. Whether it works is another matter, but 6x05 did not encourage me.

I expect LF wants to convince Sansa that Jon isn't entirely capable of protecting Sansa. If spoilers are true, that he

Spoiler

waits until Jon's troops are nearly exhausted,

that adds to his case.

[Eyes High]

33 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

Ramsey has a fetish for dismemberment and removal of body parts. That's all I'm going to say, but I think Sansa made it fairly obvious what he did that she can "still feel."

Given that Littlefinger lied so blatantly to Royce last episode, it's clear he was not counting on Sansa returning to tell her side of the story. So, he knew all about Ramsey.

There's no suggestion that Ramsay flayed Sansa or removed any body parts, and her fingers are obviously intact (and toes as well, since she walks normally). To flay her, he would have needed the equipment, and as far as we can tell like Book Jeyne she was confined to a bedroom. We also saw her bare arms in 5x07, and they had no scars, only bruises. He never flayed Book Jeyne or removed her body parts, either. I don't think there's enough information to assume that Ramsay did anything to Sansa beyond beating her and subjecting to her to various forms of rape and sexual abuse. The way that conversation went is that Sansa wanted to get Littlefinger to acknowledge that she was raped; he asked about beatings, then whether she was cut, and finally she got impatient with his hemming and hawing and spelled it out for him by saying that the other things were things "ladies aren't supposed to talk about" (i.e. sex acts).

The writers have said that Littlefinger didn't know about Ramsay, for whatever it's worth.

[Hecate7]

5 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

There's no suggestion that Ramsay flayed Sansa or removed any body parts, and her fingers are obviously intact (and toes as well, since she walks normally). To flay her, he would have needed the equipment, and as far as we can tell like Book Jeyne she was confined to a bedroom. We also saw her bare arms in 5x07, and they had no scars, only bruises. He never flayed Book Jeyne or removed her body parts, either. I don't think there's enough information to assume that Ramsay did anything to Sansa beyond beating her and subjecting to her to various forms of rape and sexual abuse. The way that conversation went is that Sansa wanted to get Littlefinger to acknowledge that she was raped; he asked about beatings, then whether she was cut, and finally she got impatient with his hemming and hawing and spelled it out for him by saying that the other things were things "ladies aren't supposed to talk about" (i.e. sex acts).

The writers have said that Littlefinger didn't know about Ramsay, for whatever it's worth.

You're probably right. But there's absolutely nothing in that paragraph to suggest that he did not cut her in places that wouldn't show. Sansa appears to be alluding to forms of sexual abuse which will not ever heal physically, such as infibulation, for example. Sansa could still conceive and give birth, if Ramsey made her and Theon a "matched set," so to speak. Theon was in a bedroom when it was done to him. Sansa spoke of permanence, and of brothel keepers knowing about what was done to her. 

He DID remove toes from Book Jeyne, as we know from her line, "he doesn't have to cut off my feet." Ramsey usually moves on to hands or feet after removing fingers and toes, not before.

[Umbelina]

I'm curious about the no-horn with the pirates.  Have we heard anything about the horn?

It makes me wonder if, in the book, it was a fake, or it simply has no bearing on the conclusion of the story, and possibly not even on something actually significant that could happen?  Frankly, my eyes glazed over whenever the pirates were on the page, even though I trudged through it all, I pretty much immediately forgot or didn't give a shit about it, suspecting them all to be Red Shirts or red herrings.  So, I undoubtedly missed some things.  Then again, maybe he pulls the horn out in a later episode.

A little help, from spoilers or speculation here?

[SeanC]

2 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

He DID remove toes from Book Jeyne, as we know from her line, "he doesn't have to cut off my feet." Ramsey usually moves on to hands or feet after removing fingers and toes, not before.

No, I think that's an incorrect inference. There's no mention of Jeyne having lost toes; she's naked when Theon and co. come for her, if she's had those kind of injuries they'd have been mentioned (plus she'd have trouble walking properly, which Jeyne doesn''t, as far as we know).

Edited May 23, 2016 by SeanC

[Edith]

2 hours ago, amandawoods said:

In the Inside the Episode, they did say that Littlefinger still has a hold on her, and she doesn't trust Jon completely yet.  Also, Sophie mentioned something about sibling rivalry.  But none of the spoilers for the coming episodes mentions Sansa not wanting Jon to be King of the North when that happens at the end of the season.  I could see Littlefinger pulling a move like being late and waiting until the best possible time for him to join the battle, but not Sansa willingly.   I think the audience is supposed to doubt that they are going to make it all.  

Man, I want Bran meeting Davos, Mel, Littlefinger like now.  I have no idea how that would go.  

But the northern lords are the one suggesting Jon as KITN and Sansa support this. Maybe she only does it to get the troops for battle and not something she would do if she have other options.

The spoiler said that Littlefinger and Sansa joint the battle together and we heard everything that he said to her in this episode about an army loyal to herself and Jon being only her half brother so I can see pulling the moves at the end.

She got the bigger army and the best claim so there's not need for Jon as the head of the Starks anymore

BTW was just me or the last scene felt like she was being fake? The whole scene felt off and I dont know if this was on purpose  or not but I felt there was a shift in the relationship 

Edited May 24, 2016 by Edith

[SeanC]

We're using spoiler tags for the really detailed stuff.

7 minutes ago, Edith said:

Spoiler

But the northern lords are the one suggesting Jon as KITN and Sansa support this. Maybe she only does it to get the troops for battle and not something she would do if she have other options.

The spoiler said that Littlefinger and Sansa joint the battle together and we heard everything that he said to her in this episode about an army loyal to herself and Jon being only her half brother so I can see pulling the moves at the end.

She got the bigger army and the best claim so there's not need for Jon as the head of the Starks.  

 

Spoiler

The spoilers indicate that Jon is crowned king after the battle, not before -- presumably in episode 610, paralleling Robb's crowning in 110.  At that point, with Vale troops presumably ringing Winterfell, if Sansa wanted the crown she could presumably press her case for it, but evidently she supports Jon.

Edited May 23, 2016 by SeanC

[Eyes High]

23 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

You're probably right. But there's absolutely nothing in that paragraph to suggest that he did not cut her in places that wouldn't show. Sansa appears to be alluding to forms of sexual abuse which will not ever heal physically, such as infibulation, for example. Sansa could still conceive and give birth, if Ramsey made her and Theon a "matched set," so to speak. Theon was in a bedroom when it was done to him. Sansa spoke of permanence, and of brothel keepers knowing about what was done to her. 

The "other things" were things not only that brothel keepers know about but that "Ladies aren't supposed to talk about," i.e. sex acts. If she had been raped, sodomized, etc., she would definitely still "feel" it, as many survivors of sexual abuse do. I don't see any reason to jump to things like infibulation without Sansa explicitly stating that that was what was done to her. To bring the topic back to Season 6, I don't think we're going to get some reveal that Sansa is covered in scars, and Sansa being mutilated either through being cut or by having things removed--especially when there's no indication that anything like that happened to Book Jeyne other than bite marks on her breasts, and no indication that anything like that will ever happen to Book Sansa--is a little too grand guignol for the show, which tones down a lot of the violence.

[areca]

22 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

She would definitely still "feel" it, as many survivors of sexual abuse do. I don't see any reason to jump to things like infibulation without Sansa explicitly stating that that was what was done to her. 

Because she specifically stated the pain was physical, and in her body, right there as she stood.  It was definitely not "feels".  She also made it very, very clear that Ramsay HAD cut her.  "Oh, so you DO know Ramsay then..."

Edited May 24, 2016 by areca

[Edith]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

We're using spoiler tags for the really detailed stuff.

  Reveal hidden contents

The spoilers indicate that Jon is crowned king after the battle, not before -- presumably in episode 610, paralleling Robb's crowning in 110.  At that point, with Vale troops presumably ringing Winterfell, if Sansa wanted the crown she could presumably press her case for it, but evidently she supports Jon.

Fixed it! Thank you! I forgot...

Spoiler

Ohhh I didn't know that..I thought it was before, when they are recruiting the northern houses to their cause

Well then there goes my theory! 

[nksarmi]

It would take a lot for me to believe in five episodes that anything could come between Jon and Sansa at this point in the story. The only potential tension I could see coming between them would be related to Rickon or Ramsey.

Spoiler

In other words, if Sansa blames Jon for Rickon's death or if Jon didn't kill Ramsey (which I cannot believe) and make her a proper widow. I also can't believe GRRM has any intention of trying to separate them. I understand that LF has worked long and hard to get his fingers in Sansa and he's probably afraid he can't manipulate Jon. But I don't think it would take LF long to figure out a way to work his way into Jon's council. As much as I love Jon, he might be leery of LF (as I expect Sansa to be) but he won't have many people to turn to if the North decides they need help from Southern kingdoms against the Others.

[Mya Stone]

Just showing this, which I don't necessarily put stock into, but IMDb has this listed for next episode: 

 

[Chris24601]

42 minutes ago, areca said:

Because she specifically stated the pain was physical, and in her body, right there as she stood.  It was definitely not "feels".  She also made it very, very clear that Ramsay HAD cut her.  "Oh, so you DO know Ramsay then..."

Ramsey is an escalator. The more familiar he gets the more bored he gets and so he escalates the violence. When we saw Sansa with just bruises it was shortly after her wedding when she begged Theon to go light the candle in the broken tower. Instead Theon went to Ramsey, Ramsey had the old woman flayed and Sansa returned to her room.

I think the implication in the last episode is that Ramsey's brutality continued to escalate after that (Sansa confirmed that he cut her in her conversation with Littlefinger and suggested that it got even worse than that). By the time she managed to escape, she would rather have Miranda kill her and was willing to risk jumping from a castle battlement rather than remain his prisoner.

The point of that scene was to imply that Ramsey was far worse than even that. I doubt it would have involved infibulation (the recovery time would have interfered with his attempts to get her pregnant as quickly as possible) but SOME sort of permanent damage was done or she wouldn't be mentioning it. I also think its something of a Chekov's gun that we'll need to see the actual damage at some point just to really drive it home how awful Ramsey is.

If it occurs this season I think it would come into play at Bear Island, simply because Lady Mormont is the head of the household and so Sansa revealing the extent of her injuries in private to another Lady is about as non-titillating a setup as you're going to get (I'd personally lean towards opening up the back of her dress to reveal some scars on her back with no need to show more myself).

As to the various spoilered bits...

Spoiler

 

I think the perceived mistrust between Sansa and Jon is actually just the fact that both of them are displaying textbook cases of PTSD (Jon's hesitancy and uncertainty and Sansa's trying to put a brave face over real trauma like she's Kimmy Schmidt), but that they'll end up overcoming the worst of it together. I think Sansa will reveal Littlefinger's offer and her reasons for keeping it quiet when their efforts with the minor lords and Riverrun fail to produce the soldiers needed and the twist will be that, unlike Jamie and Cersei who should be splitting up about then, Jon WILL understand and offer support and comfort instead of condemnation.

I think Sansa will end up playing Littlefinger by making him think she's come to him because she wants an army that is loyal to her and her claim, maybe even imply a romantic interest so that he thinks he could become Warden of the North, but then pull the rug out from under Littlefinger after the battle by backing Jon as King in the North, making herself worthless to Littlefinger's ambitions and setting him up so that he reveals something treasonous that can get him executed in the final episode.

I've always predicted that Littlefinger would be killed off just before the real endgame begins. By then he will have served his story purpose of creating maximum chaos to impede the heroes from achieving the needed goals of defeating the real villains. Based on what we're hearing about how many episodes remain after this season, I'd say the end of this season will most likely be that time (along with blowing King's Landing off the map for a clean sweep of the petty politics of the older generation).

 

[Eyes High]

Quote

I think the implication in the last episode is that Ramsey's brutality continued to escalate after that

I don't see any such implication at all. The dialogue between LF and Sansa in that segment speaks for itself, in my opinion, and these outsized attempts to read in infibulation, other forms of genital mutilation, and other horrors seems completely at odds with what's actually said.

LF: He beat you.

Sansa: Yes, he enjoyed that. What else do you think he did? (...) What else?

LF: Did he cut you?

Sansa: Maybe you did know about Ramsay all along (...) The other things he did, ladies aren't supposed to talk about those things, but I imagine brothel keepers talk about them all the time. I can still feel it. I don't mean in my tender heart it still pains me so. I can still feel what he did in my body standing here right now.

Quote

Sansa confirmed that he cut her in her conversation with Littlefinger

I don't believe that she did. She didn't respond to his question about cutting her. In fact, she got annoyed that he was dancing around the elephant in the room (Sansa being raped multiple times) by asking about beatings and physical abuse. She was trying to make him acknowledge that the "other things" were sexual (things ladies aren't supposed to talk about) which is why she specifically states that the "other things" were sexual.

As for her statement "I can still feel it, etc.", she says "I can still feel what he did IN my body." If she were referring to genital or external mutilation, she would have said "I can still feel what he did TO my body." Big difference there. In context, she is clearly referencing the physical memory of being raped, since doing something "in" her body implies penetration, whereas "to" her body would imply some sort of external mutilation or scarring. Also, if what she says is that "I can still feel it," that means that the damage is or the remnants of what he did are not something tangible or physical, like scarring or FGM would be. Saying "I can still feel it" implies that the damage can't be seen or touched. She can't see it or touch it, but she "can still feel it in" her body.

I think that if you get FGM or even any kind of external cutting or scarring from Sansa's comments that you're misreading the scene. To me, she was clearly trying to elicit an admission from LF that Ramsay had raped her, and when he instead danced around the issue by talking about beatings and cutting her, she went out and stated that the "other things" were sexual.

 

Quote

that we'll need to see the actual damage at some point just to really drive it home how awful Ramsey is.

 

I hardly think the audience needs convincing as to Ramsay's awfulness. Having an elaborate, graphic reveal as to "actual damage" would be nothing more than torture porn, and torture porn inflicted on a main female character (played by a barely-legal actress who was very young when she was cast) no less. Even GRRM balked at doing such things to the main female characters apart from Brienne losing a chunk of her face to Biter; he saved his most gruesome mutilations and disfigurements for minor characters like Pretty Meris and Pia. Furthermore, no matter what they say, I get the feeling that D&D have been given a talking-to about rape and graphic or sexualized violence inflicted on women on the show; that's why even in Vaes Dothrak in 6x04 it was made very clear that the Dothraki public sex was consensual, and all character female nudity has been consensual in Season 6. I'm pretty sure they got their knuckles rapped.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

Also, as far as Ramsay's escalation, Sansa became progressively more put-together toward the end of the season.  She looked terrible in 5x07 when Theon first sees her, but in 5x08, after her escape attempt fails, her whole look is immaculate.  She's certainly not acting like somebody who is having pieces carved off them, and if the show were trying to retcon that in (and I don't think they are), I'd call that cheap.  If she'd been suffering that kind of mutilation she'd have to have been more like Theon was, and Sansa's never been shown acting nearly that bad.

[armadillo1224]

Rape and 'standard' sexual abuse can leave behind plenty of physical pain and traces on their own. You don't need to have been mutilated to still feel the experience of rape in your body. I think going to something like FGM is a very bizarre misreading of the scene. We have had three straight seasons of Ramsay torturing people in grotesque ways. I doubt the showrunners would add in any more, especially in a storyline that was already heavily criticized for being gratuitous and exploitative. Whatever they say, they have clearly been dialing back the level of sexual violence in this show.

Edited May 24, 2016 by armadillo1224

[Hecate7]

5 minutes ago, SeanC said:

No, I think that's an incorrect inference. There's no mention of Jeyne having lost toes; she's naked when Theon and co. come for her, if she's had those kind of injuries they'd have been mentioned (plus she'd have trouble walking properly, which Jeyne doesn''t, as far as we know).

"'A tear ran down her cheek. 'Tell him, you tell him, I'll do what he wants...or whatever he wants...with him...or...or with the dog or...please...he doesn't need to cut my feet off, I won't try to run away, not ever, I'll give him sons, I swear it, I swear it...'"
-A Dance With Dragons, page 768.

I'm inferring from this that Ramsey has threatened to cut off her feet before, which means he's already been at her with a knife. It's not hard to bring things like a flaying knife into a bedroom, and Ramsey could easily subdue a girl without any need for elaborate equipment or crosses. All he really needs is a bed and some straps. Remember when everyone "knew" Theon hadn't been castrated by Ramsey, because it's never explicitly stated in the text? Theon says "I have no..." but that sentence could end any old way, and later he does want to have sex with a girl, and this used to be taken as proof that Theon was intact. Plenty of other "incorrect" inferences have turned out to be correct.

[Hecate7]

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

As for her statement "I can still feel it, etc.", she says "I can still feel what he did IN my body." If she were referring to genital or external mutilation, she would have said "I can still feel what he did TO my body." Big difference there. In context, she is clearly referencing the physical memory of being raped, since doing something "in" her body implies penetration, whereas "to" her body would imply some sort of external mutilation or scarring. Also, if what she says is that "I can still feel it," that means that the damage is or the remnants of what he did are not something tangible or physical, like scarring or FGM would be. Saying "I can still feel it" implies that the damage can't be seen or touched. She can't see it or touch it, but she "can still feel it in" her body.

 

I think she meant she could still feel it in her body, as opposed to her emotions. She is comparing emotional and physical pain, and says she still feels it in her body. She's talking about how she physically feels. It's not even a physical memory--whatever he did, still causes a physical sensation. It's not about what he did in her body, although yes, I think she wants Baelish to ask about rape.

You don't have to be penetrated to have a pain IN your back. She is being very specific, here. She's still feeling something physically, that he did, not necessarily something that occurred during penetration. She's feeling damage in her body which continues to be an issue even though she's out of danger, like an soldier whose war wound still twinges.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Hecate7

[Hecate7]

2 hours ago, armadillo1224 said:

Rape and 'standard' sexual abuse can leave behind plenty of physical pain and traces on their own. You don't need to have been mutilated to still feel the experience of rape in your body. I think going to something like FGM is a very bizarre misreading of the scene. We have had three straight seasons of Ramsay torturing people in grotesque ways. I doubt the showrunners would add in any more, especially in a storyline that was already heavily criticized for being gratuitous and exploitative. Whatever they say, they have clearly been dialing back the level of sexual violence in this show.

 

We have had three straight seasons of Ramsey behaving a certain way, and therefore he wouldn't continue to be exactly the same way? Given his treatment of every previous lover but Myranda, and his treatment of Theon, I don't think it's that odd at all to wonder. The showrunners might or might not have dialed it back, but there's no reason to expect Ramsey to suddenly be less horrible. Sansa's description of what she felt was so vague and at the same time so pointed, so like the "did he or didn't he" in the books over Theon's condition, that my mind went there. It isn't as if Ramsey hasn't done that sort of thing before. And Myranda told us that Ramsey had plans for Sansa's parts that made heirs, once she'd given him a few. Amazing plans. And Sansa tells us he did as he pleased with her body as long as she could still make heirs--implying that what he pleased had nothing to do with making heirs, but was something which still hurts more physically, in her body, than it does mentally or emotionally. Could be nothing--knowing these writers it probably literally is nothing, but there was room for speculation so I speculated.

[Dev F]

11 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

I think she meant she could still feel it in her body, as opposed to her emotions. She is comparing emotional and physical pain, and says she still feels it in her body. She's talking about how she physically feels. It's not even a physical memory--whatever he did, still causes a physical sensation.

But intense physical memories can cause a physical sensation. That's what I assumed she was talking about -- the difference between feeling something like shame or sadness in her "tender heart" and feeling the memory of a physical agony.

[Eyes High]

29 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

Could be nothing--knowing these writers it probably literally is nothing, but there was room for speculation so I speculated.

Except that Sansa specifies what the "other things" were and specifies that they were sexual ("things ladies aren't supposed to talk about"). I don't see any room in the dialogue for your speculation. I'm also not sure why you seem to be suggesting that Sansa has had body parts removed by Ramsay when she clearly hasn't had anything removed (removing toes would have caused her to have Theon's shambling gait, and as we saw in this episode Sansa strides comfortably about). Nor has Sansa's body language suggested any lingering severe physical pain: her range of motion is unrestricted, she isn't limping, she isn't favouring one side over the other, her gait is brisk and even, and she showed no pain at being lifted into Jon's crushing bear hug. She presents as the same strong, healthy person she's always been, as shown in this episode when she was energetically walking to her room, gesturing enthusiastically. If Sansa has suffered some sort of crippling physical injuries or damage courtesy of Ramsay of the kind you're speculating about, there is absolutely no sign of it.

If your interpretation was correct, and Sansa had suffered some sort of lasting physical damage inflicted by Ramsay other than the aftereffects of her rapes, including missing toes, don't you think Sansa would have thrown it in Littlefinger's face instead of pulling out the "things ladies aren't supposed to talk about" card as her ace? As it was, the "other things" he did were covered by her dialogue, and it was "things ladies aren't supposed to talk about," i.e. various forms of rape, and nothing else. If she wanted to shame him with her suffering, surely the best way would be to allude to tangible physical mutilation instead of referring merely to a "feeling" of what he did. However, there is no such tangible physical mutilation. She can only feel what he did, i.e. there is no lasting physical mutilation, only memories of the pain she suffered when he raped her.

23 minutes ago, Dev F said:

But intense physical memories can cause a physical sensation. That's what I assumed she was talking about -- the difference between feeling something like shame or sadness in her "tender heart" and feeling the memory of a physical agony.

Yes, exactly.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Eyes High