S10.E22: The Prisoner

[DittyDotDot]

34 minutes ago, Diane said:

I agree, I understood he got most of his Grace back, but not all of it.

But he was powered up as much as any angel at this point, as far as I recall. I mean, the reason he couldn't teleport wasn't because he lost his grace, but because he lost his wings. All the other angels couldn't teleport anymore either and they still had their grace, just not their wings.

I also have a little theory about grace being like rechargeable batteries, so all you need is a little bit of grace--as long as it's your own grace--to fully recharge. If you try to recharge an angel's grace in the wrong vessel, it seems to go bad.

Edited October 11, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[Diane]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

But he was powered up as much as any angel at this point, as far as I recall. I mean, the reason he couldn't teleport wasn't because he lost his grace, but because he lost his wings. All the other angels couldn't teleport anymore either and they still had their grace, just not their wings.

I also have a little theory about grace being like rechargeable batteries, so all you need is a little bit of grace--as long as it's your own grace--to fully recharge. If you try to recharge an angel's grace in the wrong vessel, it seems to go bad.

That's what I was getting at, his not being able to teleport has nothing to do with his grace, but his broken wings. I agree with what you are saying, at least that is my take on it.

[FlickChick]

So that begs the question, why didn't Sam call Cas immediately to bring back Charlie to life? After all, a weakened Zeek/Gadreel brought her back before and human!Cas as well. The answer: they wanted Charlie off the show and an impetus for Dean going berserk. It's the only Charlie episode not written by Thompson; and the Nepotism Duo strikes again. :(  The whole thing makes me sick.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 hours ago, FlickChick said:

So that begs the question, why didn't Sam call Cas immediately to bring back Charlie to life? After all, a weakened Zeek/Gadreel brought her back before and human!Cas as well.

Is there a shelf life on bringing someone back?  I mean, when Gadreel brought Charlie back last time, she'd just been killed.  Pretty much same with humanCas, I think.  Maybe too much time had passed this time around?  (Dunno - grasping at straws here.  Otherwise, it's just as you said - an impetus for Dean to go berserk - oh and another rift between Dean and Sam.)  

[DittyDotDot]

50 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Is there a shelf life on bringing someone back?  I mean, when Gadreel brought Charlie back last time, she'd just been killed.  Pretty much same with humanCas, I think.  Maybe too much time had passed this time around?  (Dunno - grasping at straws here.  Otherwise, it's just as you said - an impetus for Dean to go berserk - oh and another rift between Dean and Sam.)  

As to a time limit on bringing someone back, I don't know anymore. The angels resurrected Adam a year after he died and Dean had been dead 4 months when he was resurrected. But, that was back before the angels lost their wings and Heaven lost some of it's power. I'm actually surprised any angel has the ability to bring someone back from the dead anymore. That was supposed to be something not just any angel could do anyway, I thought.

However, I don't think it matters, they would've found some other reason why Cass couldn't help. The only reason they killed Charlie was for manpain, if you ask me. As though Dean really needed a reason to go berserk at that point in the season. I mean, they could've run out of beer in the bunker and it probably would've of sent Dean over the edge at that point. The whole thing was just so forced and stupid, IMO.

Edited October 11, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

I mean, they could've run out of beer in the bunker and it probably would've of sent Dean over the edge at that point.

Yes. I mean, how would the ironing get done?

Sorry, I couldn't help myself... I loved that little exchange and enjoy imagining the bitchface Sam likely had.

(Some one needs to write a fanfic around that scene. Like how Dean ended up with the ironing - I'm imagining a rock/paper/scissors scenario - and then Dean's thought process as he decides to use the beer he likely had on hand instead of going to get some water. Likely justifying it to himself that ehn what could it hurt, and that Sam wouldn't notice anyway, and even if he did, it would serve Sam right for suggesting rock/paper/scissors, since Sam likely knew he'd win anyway, the little jerk... all the way through Sam's figuring it out just as Dean is making his getaway, thinking heh heh heh, etc. etc. etc.)

Edited October 12, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

My fic would be that Dean is sick and tired of ending up doing the ironing so he uses the beer to passive-aggressively annoy Sam into doing his own ironing LOL.

[KaleyFirefly]

Dean-on-a-killing-rampage is insanely hot.

I'm glad they didn't kill off Crowley...he's one of my favorite characters, maybe because I love the actor.

Get rid of Rowena already, Sam!

How is Castiel so powerless that Dean could just beat him up so easily? Cas barely fought back at all.

[bettername2come]

"She should've taken the three pigs." I love this burn, so much. "Will you just die already?" How many people you think have said that to Crowley? I absolutely love Sam telling Crowley off. I'm right there with him on everything he says. Shit. Those smoky red eyes are terrifying. Almost as terrifying as the Stynes attempting to kill Dean Winchester with a plastic bag - it's the stuff that could actually happen that scares me on this show. Poor Cyrus. He deserved better. Poor baby in a trench coat. He never stood a chance. 

[Hanahope]

Well sucks to definitely lose Charlie.  Maybe she’ll be back as a ghost or another alternate reality.

Sam v Dean is really amping things up.  Man Dean was mean. 

So Crowley wasn’t going to die, he just would have lingered until he remembered he couldn’t die by the hex bag?  Still not too bad if he let Sam live.

The Mark really has taken over Dean when he killed the nerd kid.  

[sarthaz]

Watched this again recently, and I think this is my favorite Dean. His detached confidence and wry wit are just superb in this episode, all culminating in his amazing "save me the speech [...] on the seven nipples, for the ladies -- or the fellas -- I don't judge". Jensen totally kills it here.

[The Companion]

On 5/13/2015 at 10:25 PM, Ria said:

The kid killed only under threat of being dismembered alive himself. He was afraid to run away because he was certain he would be killed. In the past, the kid would have been seen as a victim to be saved. His family was dead, there is no reason to think he would have inevitably turned out like them now that he was free of them. Even monsters have been given more of a benefit of a doubt than this kid was. And Dean didn't even kill him because of anything he'd actually done. Dean killed him solely because of "bad blood". (emphasis added)

IMO, this is the only thing that matters in the analysis. Regardless of whether the kid is complicit or not, Dean had very little information to go on and he expressly says he is killing the kid because of his genetic relationship to bad people. He says: "Oh, you are like them. There's bad in you. It's in your blood. Now you can deny it and you can run from it all you want, but that bad.... will always win." It doesn't matter that the kid killed someone or whether he was coerced or whether he should have reported his family's actions. Because what matters in this analysis is that Dean killed him because of who he was and not what he did. That is what speaks to Dean's state of mind.

On 5/13/2015 at 10:34 PM, catrox14 said:

 

I think it's very possible. Rowena is smart and a strategist or at least an opportunist. She seemed to really want her son to be a true King of Hell and not the Winchesters'  little bitch. She can go to Crowley and say that she did that to get him back on track and he might appreciate it.  He thinks she failed, where she might prove her worth. Worst. Helicopter. Mom EVER.

Oh, she will for sure claim it even if it isn't true and I kinda love that about her. 

On 5/14/2015 at 12:03 AM, ahrtee said:

Just have to throw my two cents in here to everyone who is so upset about how Dean has done the unforgivable; that he crossed the line by murdering an innocent human... Does anyone here remember the poor nurse way back in 4.22 that Sam kidnapped and murdered just so he could drink her blood?  AFAIK, *no one* (including Dean, Sam, Bobby or even Ruby) ever mentioned her again.   Maybe Sam never told Dean?  I know it was handwaved by the writers because, well, Sam was not himself, but was under the influence of some uncontrollable evil...hey, does that sound familiar? 

I'm not trying to whitewash either action, just point out that yes, it has been done before and yes, it has been forgiven, or at least, apparently forgotten.  

 

As noted by others, it is hard for me to get too worked up about the possessed nurse given how often these guys gank possessed people without ever trying to determine whether they are still alive. Also, as awful as it was to kill the innocent civilian, correct me if I am wrong but it also killed the demon who acquired babies for consumption. As far as demon gankings go, that one is probably way more righteous than Demon #3 who is guarding abandoned warehouse #342.

Not saying it's right. Just saying in the context of the morality of this show after that point it doesn't seem particularly egregious.

On 5/14/2015 at 7:03 AM, catrox14 said:

I don't see how Dean gets out of this.  I love Dean Winchester. I always will. He'll always be a hero to me. But how can he be redeemed? Sam at least got to fall into the Pit and save the world to make up for killing the nurse.  Dean might have saved the world from the Stynes but unless we see something that says the youngest was going down that same path of his own free will without the influence of torture, which IMO is what his family was going to do to him. Dean's speech though was just like Cain. He was killing him to stop any future killing that may or may not have taken place.  It's a shitty thing to do to Dean.

 

Not sure where the story will take us, but I agree that his actions clearly mirror Cain's murdering of a bunch of potentially innocent people to destroy his bloodline.

On 5/14/2015 at 10:51 AM, oliverwendell said:

 

I agree, because we've seen a somewhat similar situation before:  Amy and her son.  Dean did not even consider killing Amy's son, who actually was a monster; the monster she was killing to feed.  But to Dean, killing a child was unthinkable.  This kid in the bunker was a bit older, but still was just a kid.  Moreover, Amy's kid threatened to get his revenge someday, right to Dean's face, and Dean still didn't kill him.  NerdStyne begged for his life in a very convincing way; one that the Dean of old would have responded to.  

No, I'm with SueB on this:  Dean had to cross a moral event horizon (love this term! never heard it before!) in order for us to appreciate how much the Mark has twisted him, and to make us really want to see him fixed.  Killing NerdStyne was that moral event horizon, and I for one am glad it wasn't killing Cas.

I agree with this. I think the parallel is really clear here. We have seen Dean actually relax his kill all monster rules lately, and this is a sharp turn left. 

On 5/14/2015 at 1:45 PM, PepperMonkey said:

Oh no, the Louisiana Stynes are gone! Who cares! They were so gd boring. Every one of them went to the William Shatner School of Overacting.

 

Ugh. Someone please go against my spoiler policy and promise me I don't have to see any more scenery chewing fake Southern Stynes. DaddyStyne's accent was so bad that my husband, who does not watch the show, overheard it and thought one of the characters was doing a pretend accent as a joke. I have learned to tune out a lot of bad accents in my time, but these were borderline offensive. Add in the just ridiculous, moustache twirling acting and I just cannot with these guys. 

I think the most offensive thing about this episode was that the Stynes were so freaking boring. I was impatient for Dean to kill them all, as he obviously was going to do, so that we could get on with our lives. 

On 5/14/2015 at 6:42 PM, Commando Cody said:

I kind of looking at offing the kid as Dean doing him a favor.  I wouldn't say he was totally innocent either.  He knew his family was screwed up, but chose ignore it until his father forced him to participate.  That probably messed him up royally.  If dean hadn't killed him, he probably would have ended up in therapy for the rest of his life - not really being able to confess to the therapist exactly what his family did.  Not only that, other living relatives may come looking for him and he would have ended up in the family business anyway.  The kid was a liability, although maybe Dean could have used the kid to smoke a few relatives out.  

It seems to me you could say that about pretty much anyone who is on the show, though. I mean, should they kill Alex/Annie? How normal will her life ever be after being used as monster bait? What about every ethical/non murdering monster they let go? Hell, this is true of the Winchesters themselves. 

On 5/15/2015 at 12:18 PM, DittyDotDot said:

Dean was also being manipulated by Crowley and IMO his desire to kill Abaddon was just as altruistic as Sam wanting to kill Lilith. Neither Sam or Dean asked the necessary questions before they started down their respective paths. Sam didn't stop and ask Ruby what any consequences would be for drinking demon blood or killing Lilith either. And Dean had no more idea that taking on the Mark would turn him into a demon than Sam had in killing Lilith would set Lucifer free. Personally, I find they both acted recklessly and from emotional places that got them into their respective messes, but I don't find Sam's journey any more or less noble than Dean's.

I get slightly more angry at Dean because Cain started to warn him of the consequences and he didn't care enough to hear them. At least he could have then prepared for them if he had asked. I would have respected it more if they tweaked that scene to have him know the risk and decide it was worth it to stop Abbadon. 

On 5/15/2015 at 10:11 PM, AwesomO4000 said:

 

It might be an excuse sometimes, but there were times when they couldn't just exorcise the demon, not just due to time, but the safety of their plan depended on a demon not being able to go go back to hell and give their location. (It was even commented on a few times). This was especially a problem after they learned of the difference in time between up top and hell, meaning a demon with information could pass it along to someone in hell and them and other demons break out with not much time passing up top before they get back.

I think it would be nice for them to occasionally address this if they are going to use it as an excuse. They seem to have not even the slightest hesitation or guilt for stabbing demons. 

On 5/16/2015 at 10:58 AM, SueB said:

Actually, I'm pretty sure he was in college. High schools don't usually have multiple buildings and he was leaving 'Styne Hall'. I think we assume high school because he was getting a ride and bullying behavior is so high school. But then he was also asked by the internet friend when he was coming to California. That's not really high school level chit chat.

 

My high school did. Actually, I toured a public elementary school last night that had multiple buildings. They weren't fancy like that, but I do think many expensive private schools could have buildings that look like Styne Hall.

 

On 5/19/2015 at 1:28 PM, millennium said:

Did I miss something in Dark Dynasty?  Was Charlie chained in a basement like Rowena and forced to crack the code against her will?   Because if not, everything Dean said about her death came off like paternalistic, sexist bullshit.

Telling Sam "you got Charlie killed."   Charlie participated of her own free will, out of a sincere desire to help Dean.   I didn't like Charlie much, but Dean making it sound like she had no say in the matter does her character a deep injustice.    She gave her life for her friend, a fact that has been trampled amid the carnage of Dean's vengeance ride   Sam buying into Dean's analysis of the situation also robs Charlie of her legacy (but to be fair, Sam is overcome by shock and guilt).

 

This. Charlie got killed because of the book, the search for which they both sanctioned, if we need to find a cause. But Charlie got killed because she was trying to help Dean. She was an adult woman who made her own decisions. Justifying Dean's behavior with, "well she was like a little sister" is infantilizing and paternalistic. 

I tackled this in the prior thread, but nothing about Sam's actions or secrets and lies actually lead to Charlie's death, except possibly not destroying the book (which we don't know is possible) and even then she would have remained a target because of her knowledge.

Sam's call got her involved with the witch codex, but the Stynes didn't attack her for the codex. 

On 10/11/2016 at 8:39 AM, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Rewatching...(What am I doing?) and something else that bugged me, but I forgot to comment on it first time through:  Sam didn't even bother to tell Cas that Charlie died before they burned her?  It took some time to get that funeral pyre together.  Maybe Cas would have liked to pay his 'last respects', no?  Maybe for an angel, human 'death' doesn't really make a difference - since supposedly she'll be in Heaven, right?  I don't know.  It just seemed weird that Sam took so long to tell Cas what happened.  

This was some Grade A bullshit. Charlie's funeral was about Sam and Dean's feelings and not about her. If there was any question whether or not she was fridged, the funeral answered them. More on that below, but it was really weird to have Sam tell Cas that much later. 

On 10/11/2016 at 6:39 PM, DittyDotDot said:

However, I don't think it matters, they would've found some other reason why Cass couldn't help. The only reason they killed Charlie was for manpain, if you ask me. As though Dean really needed a reason to go berserk at that point in the season. I mean, they could've run out of beer in the bunker and it probably would've of sent Dean over the edge at that point. The whole thing was just so forced and stupid, IMO.

All of the yeses. Charlie's funeral could not have been less about her. I mean, compare it to Bobby's death or Kevin's return as a ghost. They didn't even TALK about Charlie. There was no recognition of who she was outside of the context of Sam and Dean. Even the damn montage was about Sam and/or Dean. There was no: here she is being a badass or remember that time she was LARPing? It is all Charlie hugging them and telling them she loves them. FFS, the character deserved a lot better than this. Like her death, which was couched first and foremost in reaction shots by Sam and Dean, her funeral was solely about how her death impacted these two guys. Gross. The entire funeral scene made me slightly nauseated.

Literally anything could have set Dean off. We didn't need it to be Charlie. It would have been better if it WASN'T Charlie, because her death just gave everyone a chance to explain away his MoC actions. If we are supposed to be disturbed by how out of control he is, and I think we are, killing Charlie only weakens that by making his murder spree fall more in a gray area. 

 

Guys, I am not going to beat a dead horse here about how bad the representation of Shreveport is, but it is not a tiny one stop light town with two police officers. It has a population of over 100k with a metro area of almost 500k. A google search tells me they have 500 officers. Did we really need a stereotypical mouth breathing redneck sheriff here? There is a fucking medical school and university there. 

I hated this episode, but not for the reasons I was supposed to. Yes, Dean's decline was suitably disturbing. Yes, I think his murder of the potentially innocent Styne and his fight with Castiel were horrible to watch in exactly the way they were supposed to be. However, the Stynes were legitimately the least watchable monster/bad guy I think I have ever seen (and that includes racist trucks) and it pisses me off that they somehow killed Charlie, who had apparently learned how to fight, when they were so easily killed. MoC aside, they didn't necessarily require extra bullets or stab wounds. I found myself bored listening to DaddyStyne monologue. I didn't find myself transferring anger and hate to the bad guys who were responsible for Charlie's death. I was too pissed off at the writers instead. Oh, and if we are going to kill these assholes "for Charlie" maybe we could also be pissed off with them for the multitude of horrifying events they apparently helped precipitate like 9/11 or the holocaust. Whatever. Compared to Lucifer or the Leviathans, these guys were about as menacing as kittens.

I am happy that Crowley is back to being evil. I don't really like him, but I probably like him better when he is evil. I am with Sam. Crowley has done terrible and awful things. I also am interested to see if Rowena tries to take credit. I know she is likely to be killed soon, but I have found her to be really watchable.

Winner of most unintentionally hilarious moment: the nurse who was polishing the surgical tools. What in the actual fuck? 😂I want to see my face in those scalpels, entirely gratuitous hot nurse that we apparently keep around as the only female in the house.

[Katy M]

28 minutes ago, The Companion said:

Someone please go against my spoiler policy and promise me I don't have to see any more scenery chewing fake Southern Stynes

Only because you ask, yes, we are done with them.  Unless someone gets the bright idea to resurrect them in the last half of the last season.  I'm with you on that, BTW.  the Steins did nothing for me.

29 minutes ago, The Companion said:

I hated this episode,

So many people go on about how much they love this episode that I thought I was the only one who hated it. And judging from your comments for much the same reasons you do.  Thanks for validating me a bit:)

[gonzosgirrl]

22 minutes ago, Katy M said:

So many people go on about how much they love this episode that I thought I was the only one who hated it.

I did love that Dean finally got a little bit back after all the times Castiel has beaten the living shit out of him. I found that extremely satisfying.

[The Companion]

15 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Only because you ask, yes, we are done with them.  Unless someone gets the bright idea to resurrect them in the last half of the last season.  I'm with you on that, BTW.  the Steins did nothing for me.

So many people go on about how much they love this episode that I thought I was the only one who hated it. And judging from your comments for much the same reasons you do.  Thanks for validating me a bit:)

Thank goodness for that at least.

Solidarity on disliking this episode.

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I did love that Dean finally got a little bit back after all the times Castiel has beaten the living shit out of him. I found that extremely satisfying.

So did I. This is one of my favorite episodes.