S01.E22: All Happy Families Are Alike

[Milz]

I think you're right there but really, what reason would either Lee or Jim to have to suspect Barbara of going full out psycho on her? As far as anybody knew, Barbara was the victim in all of this (and to be honest, I'm still not sure if she actually slashed her parents-I think she's internalizing her own guilt for having served them up on a plate to the Ogre) and since Jim had a relationship with her, why not a quick little informal counseling session with a referral to an actual counselor down the road.  Of course WE all knew she was going to snap because hey, it's Gotham and that's what people do here. The characters in the storyline....not so much.

 

StupidLee suspected Barbara had some kind of residual trauma when she kept pushing her to get counseling. And I disagree with the recap comment that Jim's eye exercises meant "Go ahead and counsel Babs!". I think it was more "don't do it. Don't do it!" But StupidLee did it anyway (because it's Gotham). StupidLee had worked at Arkham, so she would have been aware that people can be volatile, especially those with some kind of traumatic experience. (Sheesh...I work in a primary care medical office and we've had to call the cops because a patient becomes angry and threatening when doc is going over their cholesterol test and medications!)

[Perfect Xero]

Holy moly, that was something...

I'm torn on Barbara's shift into outright psychotic. On the one hand it was seriously fun and actually fits well with a lot of the vibes I've got from Barbara over the season. I could be very happy with her as a villain.

On the other hand I'm a huge Batgirl fan and it's hard to see how Babs comes into existance in this reality.

 

Prediction: At some point Jim made a deposit at a sperm bank in case something happened to him in the line of duty. Psycho!Barbara gets hold of it and ...

[Philbert]

 

Prediction: At some point Jim made a deposit at a sperm bank in case something happened to him in the line of duty. Psycho!Barbara gets hold of it and ...

 

 

She might not need it. Insane chicks are sexy....

 

StupidLee suspected Barbara had some kind of residual trauma when she kept pushing her to get counseling.

 

Yes, but 'residual trauma' doesn't necessarily translate to "I have a Crocodile Dundee knife and I'm not afraid to use it!" Could Lee have been more cautious about seeing here? Yes, I don't think anybody is arguing that point. Is she stupid for wanting to help out her boyfriend's ex? I'm one of those who took his eyerolls to mean "Oh Just go head and talk to the hot mess for 30 minutes." In that context Lee looks far less stupid. Your mileage obviously varies.

[Milz]

Yes, but 'residual trauma' doesn't necessarily translate to "I have a Crocodile Dundee knife and I'm not afraid to use it!" Could Lee have been more cautious about seeing here? Yes, I don't think anybody is arguing that point. Is she stupid for wanting to help out her boyfriend's ex? I'm one of those who took his eyerolls to mean "Oh Just go head and talk to the hot mess for 30 minutes." In that context Lee looks far less stupid. Your mileage obviously varies.

 

It might not directly translate, but there is a possibility it could and StupidLee should have entertained that possibility. Moreover, StupidLee admitted she had some training in that kind of counseling but it wasn't her field, yet, all it took was for Dumbarella to say I really trust yoooooouuuuuu! and she goes ahead.  Like I wrote in my initial post in this thread, someone call the Board of Medicine and get StupidLee's license revoked or at least get her censured. She admits she's under qualified to provide a medical service to a patient, yet does it anyway thus violating the "do no harm" edict. If StupidLee is stupid enough to compromise her professional integrity and her medical license to please her boyfriend, then she is more stupid than I thought.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Milz

[supposebly]

I finally caught up. Overall, this show is nothing but entertaining as long as I think of it as a over-the-top comic book and don't try to apply any reality to this. I will continue watching next season.

 

I will miss Fish and her attitude, not to mention her outfits. I found her death rather anticlimactic. However, I loved when she shot Maroni. He had it coming in so many ways but I'm glad it was her.

 

The Selena joining came out of the blue. Up until then, I found her very interesting. This, I don't really get. Still, with Fish dead, that will end as quickly as it started.

 

Lee is at the very least unprofessional. I always liked Barbara. She is/was quite a mess. Her becoming an villain would be fun, I think. I'm sad the Ogre is dead. He was very compelling.

 

I love Bruce and Alfred together. I was glad Bruce confessed.

 

Despite his creepiness, I am very fond of Nygma. I'm a little sad he turned into the Riddler so soon. If Barbara spent more time in the morgue instead of counseling her boyfriend's ex, she might have found out or at least wondered why he spends so much time there.

 

One day, someone needs to explain to me with charts and graphics what the deal is with Ben McKenzie. I just don't get the alleged hotness.

 

I'm also not very fond of Lee. I think it's leftover from Morena Baccarin's stint in Firefly. It's mostly her voice that grates. Always has, probably always will.

 

Overall outstanding characters/actors for me: Bruce, Alfred, Nygma, Penguin, Selena, Fish. I would add Harvey to this list but I am used to Donal Logue delivering outstanding work. These are my surprises.

[Philbert]

 

Lee is at the very least unprofessional. I always liked Barbara. She is/was quite a mess. Her becoming an villain would be fun, I think. I'm sad the Ogre is dead. He was very compelling.

 

I'm with you on Barbara. I didn't exactly love her in the beginning but now that they actually seem to be doing something with her, I'm very interested in seeing where they go with her. Probably Arkham. And who's in Arkham? A certain young man named Jerome. It's quite possible that we'll see another rewrite of the comics/animated series and Barbara takes up the Harley Quinn role. We'll have to see next season though. 

[rubinia]

 

 

 

I believe it was Grieg's "The Hall of the Mountain King". Which, for a cavern, would be perfect!

I always knew of the music they played as "Montagues and Capulets" from Romeo and Juliet by Prokofiev.

[ratgirlagogo]

 

Psychiatric hospitals have 2 kinds of physicians: psychiatrists and 'general medical' physicians. The shrinks take care of the psychiatric problems. The general medical physicians take care of medical problems like diabetes, high cholesterol, asthma, sore throats, runny noses, etc

In real life, yes.  In the world of Gotham mad scientist doctors are doing HEAD TRANSPLANTS, so I think there's a little more leeway in Gotham when it comes to standard medical practice.

Speaking of which I agree with those above who think Fish will probably continue as a character with or without JPS.

I'm actually more bummed about losing John Doman and David Zayas, two of the best actors on the show.

 

LOVE Psycho Barbara, love evil Riddler,  hope Selina returns to the steampunk goggle Catwoman look, love the Batcave, not enough Bullock.

 

Overall this show has not been as good as I hoped, but I'm still more than in for season 2.

[Corvino]

It looks to me as if some of the people who have written the long, thoughtful posts about why they hated this episode are into the whole world of gangsters, actually liked the "Godfather" movies and such. That is one kind of "Batman" fan, and I'm the other kind. I only noticed Falcone with interest and approval in this episode, when he said he'd had enough of the awful world he created and was yearning to get out of it. I hope he succeeds and has some quality time to sit by the water in a warm, lovely place (before going to an even warmer place if he doesn't repent more completely than he just did).

 

I'm here for the weirdos and the psychos, and I LOVED this episode. Periodically during this season I thought of getting out, when it seemed to be emphasizing the gangster wars too much, and was only held back by the fascination of Penguin and Nygma and suchlike. This episode seemed to me to have good enough pacing-- Selina met Fish, and the screen said "Two Weeks Later" when she turned up with that new hairdo and allegiance. (Go back to the cute goggles, Cat!) Fish shooting Moroni made me very happy, as did Barbara's and Ed's psychotic breaks. Interest abounded! My hope is that next season will be less about the ordinary gangsters and more about the extreme personalities. 

 

You think now Gotham will descend into the pit? I thought it was already there at the beginning of the show, and Gordon starting to work was going to raise its tone a little. Certainly by the time Bruce turns into full-on Batman he needs a respectable body of good guys to work with. I think Jim and Harvey have improved things a bit already (caught the Ogre, and all).

 

Also, thank you all for identifying that terrific tune as the Prokofiev ballet thing. I knew I knew it, but didn't know what it was. 

[raven]

Well that was pretty jam-packed.  Kind of abrupt how Falcone just decided "whelp, I'm out", esp with Maroni being killed (great move by Fish). 

 

Selina teaming up with Fish came out of nowhere, but the time jumps (Fish seemed fine despite being shot, etc) were kind of off for me.  I'm not a fan of Selina, who comes off more spoiled rich kid (perfectly tousled hair, nifty leather outfit with fashion rips, too cool for it all, etc) then homeless waif.  All the other street kids are dirty and messy.  She's always perfectly put together and so on point with her sassisness, it bugs.  Her scenes with Bruce are the only ones that work for me because she is playing her character (Selina playing a character I mean) less than with anyone else. 

 

So her teaming with Fish didn't mesh for me; I can see why Selina as a person would consider that a great option, but it just didn't play well.  It should have been built up more or we saw more of them working together, maybe then it would work.

 

The craziness that is Oswald - I wonder the same thing about him that I did about the Joker in the Dark Knight - why does anyone follow him?  Not physically imposing or charasmatic, liable to go nuts at any given time.  Well he makes fun viewing most of the time.  Of course he's too busy monologuing to kill Falcone right away, wouldn't be a villain otherwise.  I did like him playing on Jim's cop sensibilities to not leave them handcuffed in the hospital.

 

Barbara going full crazy was fun - I kind of doubt that she did kill her parents, where was the blood? maybe she just thinks she did because she led the Ogre there - but yeah, Leslie agreeing to talk to her was all kinds of dumb.  Well there was a lot of dumb in the episode but it was still fun.

 

Fish shooting Maroni was a highlight and I loved everything Alfred/Bruce too.   Not enough Bullock though there rarely is. 

Edited May 8, 2015 by raven

[FamilyVan]

Her hair and makeup were all in place the whole time.

 

 

She did have blood all across her dress though, and I remember thinking how did that get there.  I agree with what was said above that the Ogre allowed her to be her real psycho self.

 

So is Fish really dead?  It seems like all that storyline about the Dollmaker and being trapped there, escaping, stabbing her own eye out was all for naught if she was just going to come back to Gotham and die within 2 weeks.  But oh well... we knew she was never going to last.

[jhlipton]

It might not directly translate, but there is a possibility it could and StupidLee should have entertained that possibility. Moreover, StupidLee admitted she had some training in that kind of counseling but it wasn't her field, yet, all it took was for Dumbarella to say I really trust yoooooouuuuuu! and she goes ahead.  Like I wrote in my initial post in this thread, someone call the Board of Medicine and get StupidLee's license revoked or at least get her censured. She admits she's under qualified to provide a medical service to a patient, yet does it anyway thus violating the "do no harm" edict. If StupidLee is stupid enough to compromise her professional integrity and her medical license to please her boyfriend, then she is more stupid than I thought.

Lee was not seeing Barbara in any official or even medical capacity. So I don't see how her license is in any danger. It was just a way to get the women together and talking about issues for PLOT! reasons, and as such it didn't bother me.  I certainly don't think she's stupid.

[beedub]

I always knew of the music they played as "Montagues and Capulets" from Romeo and Juliet by Prokofiev.

I stand corrected (by you and Puffaroo upthread). One of those cases where the music sounded familiar but I couldn't immediately nail it, then once it had passed I thought I had heard the Grieg piece (they are kind of similar). But I don't think there was much significance to using Romeo and Juliet to soundtrack the discovery of the Batcave, other than that it struck the right mood.

[Milz]

Lee was not seeing Barbara in any official or even medical capacity. So I don't see how her license is in any danger. It was just a way to get the women together and talking about issues for PLOT! reasons, and as such it didn't bother me.  I certainly don't think she's stupid.

 

As a medical doctor when StupidLee agreed to give counseling to Dumbara, they established a physician-patient relationship for that mental health counseling. So, yeah, StupidLee was seeing Dumbara in an official and medical capacity.  Moreover, when we first see StupidLee and Dumbara, Stupid is finishing examining Dumb. Hence they have a physician-patient relationship. StupidLee did attempt to extinguish that relationship by telling Dumbara to find a mental health counselor. But when StupidLee didn't, it continued the physician-patient relationship. Therefore, the Board of Medicine can sanction StupidLee for providing medical services she admits she wasn't qualified to give (AKA malpractice). StupidLee can also get her rear-end sued too because not only did she provide medical services for which she wasn't qualified, the outcome of those services was bad (Dumbara go cray-cray) and Dumbara suffered damages from the incompetently delivered medical care (Dumbara go cray-cray).

Edited May 12, 2015 by Milz

[jhlipton]

Agree to disagree (aka YMMV)?

[Milz]

I wasn't the one to initially disagree, was I?

[jhlipton]

Actually, I just thought of one more thing: you're presuming that the medical and psychiatric professions have standards unlike the police or the city government)..  This assumes facts not in evidence.

[Milz]

Actually, I just thought of one more thing: you're presuming that the medical and psychiatric professions have standards unlike the police or the city government)..  This assumes facts not in evidence.

 

Yes, you assume facts not in evidence, otherwise, you would know the standards to which physicians are held. BTW, psychiatrists are medical physicians who have additional training in psychiatry, so psychiatric profession is not a separate entity from the medical profession.

[Danielg342]

I let all that stuff go because, well, it's Gotham. There are no standards or procedures, everybody kind of does their own thing and no one cares if it's done right. In a place where there are pre-signed warrants, should it be a surprise that a doctor doesn't follow protocol either?

[blackwing]

I think Barbara is already pregnant.  Whether it's Jim's (somehow, we don't really know how many months in show time it has been since they broke up) or Ogre's or someone else's, she is going to convince herself the baby is Jim's.  She will of course name the baby Barbara Gordon.  Or perhaps at the end of the upcoming season, Barbara dies, but they are able to save the baby, which Jim will raise as his own.

 

Is Fish really dead?  Wikipedia updated the cast for Season 2 and it doesn't include Jada PS or John Doman.

 

Loved Sal Maroni taking one in the head.  I have always hated this character.  Hated the character himself and also always found it odd that this Italian mob boss speaks with a Hispanic accent.

[Shanna]

I've worked in mental health for years. I can't see that lee did anything but talk to Barbara as a friend. She didn't do anything wrong that I can see. She didn't even prescribe meds! She certainly wouldn't lose her license for talking to someone off the books. So meh.

Also, as mentioned, it's gotham.

On fish I figure she is soap opera 'dead' meaning she can come back whenever because we didn't see a body.

[ratgirlagogo]

 

Milz:the Board of Medicine can sanction StupidLee for providing medical services she admits she wasn't qualified to give (AKA malpractice). 

 

Danielg342:I let all that stuff go because, well, it's Gotham. There are no standards or procedures

Exactly.  It's a fucking COMIC BOOK!!! They do HEAD TRANSPLANTS in Gotham!!  HEAD TRANSPLANTS!!!!

[Shanna]

Exactly. It's a fucking COMIC BOOK!!! They do HEAD TRANSPLANTS in Gotham!! HEAD TRANSPLANTS!!!!

Lol!!!! Indeed.

[jhlipton]

If there was any group monitoring any doctors, they'd start with the ones "treating" the patients in Arkham Asylum (who have never even heard of litium or Prozac, apparently..) Lee and Barbara would be so far down their to-do list, as to be meaningless.

[Kel Varnsen]

So that's the future Mrs. Gordon and mother of Batgirl.  eeeeeokayyyyy.

Why even bother mentioning Batgirl, one way or another. It will be about 10 years before Batman even shows up (unless they do a time jump and recast Bruce). So it is not like the show will be on long enough for Batgirl to show up.

[John Potts]

Like the rest of the series, I'm kind of in the middle on this episode - not OMFG! or a complete Shit sandwich, but kinda somewhere in the middle. OK, I get budget constraints (obviously why we didn't see the proto Bat cave - they're not going to build a set they're not going to use, especially if TPTB are unsure they were getting a second season). But the whole gang war was rather mishandled - if the streets are running red with blood, would Don Falcone really take time out to visit his favourite chicken - without a single bodyguard (as Jeff Alexander put it "Way to bring a hen to a bazooka-fight, Carmine!")? The whole "Gotham Gang War" would really have benefitted from being a two parter, since it would have allowed the shifting allegiances more time to develop - and then be thrown into the air as new players (Penguin, Fish, Gordon) entered the game.

 

Actionmage Bye, Don Falcone. I will miss you. You were a civilized murderer, but you also knew when to be graceful in triumph; something Sal never figured out.

thuganomics85 Unlike Maroni. Dude is a goner!  He really picked the wrong time and wrong person, to be all condescending, sexist, and a straight-up asshole.  He really was an idiot.

 

 

I did find Maroni rather disappointing here. He'd been portrayed as a ruthless player, even if he was only the number two gangster in the city. You'd think he'd know better than to insult somebody holding a gun - bank your  victory for now, you can always work on having Fish assassinated tomorrow. Though I doubt Falcone will be allowed a peaceful retirement: as The Good Wife (probably correctly) pointed out, ex-Kingpins are rather like ex-monarchs - out of power but still a focus for plots, so they're a nagging loose end for those now in power will wish to eliminate. And I was also expecting somebody to "help" Penguin over the edge in his "I'm the King of the World!" moment, even if he couldn't actually die. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Fish survived (even if JPS isn't signed on for next Season) - as they say, "Nobody really dies in comics, except for Bucky, Jason Todd and Uncle Ben," (and two of those are, I believe, currently alive!)

 

While I'm sure it's true that a facility like Arkham is supposed to have a full time psychiatrist on staff, given its run down nature, it wouldn't surprise me if Lee had been expected to "fill in" for the role even if she wasn't qualified for it. If that's true, I can see her going, "Hey, I've dealt with the worst criminals in Gotham, I think I can handle one session with a traumatised socialite." I'm just glad we didn't have a "hilarious" misunderstanding as Gordon walked in on the Lee/Babs fight and assumed either that Lee had started it or that they were having an affair!

 

Danielg342 "Don't press that button! It could be a bloody bomb!"

 

Yes, Alfred, I'm sure Thomas Wayne installed a self destruct device in Wayne Manor! Though I wouldn't put it past "Young Master Wayne" to do so in future.