Family Ties: The Good, The Bad And The Ugly

emma675 · December 25, 2018

Mindthinkr, you are never an afterthought here!

BookWoman56 · December 25, 2018

@Mindthinkr, this is probably no consolation to you, but right now I'd give a lot to be alone on Christmas Eve. Instead, I have my younger sister and her husband, neither of whom I can stand, here to visit our mother. My sister was supposed to help with food prep tonight, but she and her husband both decided to call it a day about an hour ago (9 pm my time) after my sister spent half an hour regaling our mother with religious conspiracy theories and arguing that everybody's lives would be so much better if religious leaders ruled this country. My 90-year-old mother, who has some trouble processing things at times, was sitting there, too polite to say so, but the expression on her face was clearly, "What flavor of kool aid did they get you to drink?" The only good part of this is that my nephew (younger sister's son) has matured enough over the years to be a reasonable human being. (He was a holy terror when he was a kid, and I haven't seen him in close to a decade because he was overseas for a long time.) My daughter has escaped to her BF's house so as to avoid the relatives; her excuse was that she needed to take one of her dogs over there so the dog wouldn't harass the visitors, which is a good idea but has left me with no reliable backup. My son invited his cousin (my nephew who has finally evolved into a decent person) over to his house to hang out for a while. I'm thinking about the cooking that needs to be done tonight and tomorrow morning, and I swear next time around I am going to just do one of those things where a restaurant fixes a holiday meal for X number of people for a set price, and all you do is order it, pay for it, and pick it up.

VioletNevermind · December 25, 2018

On 12/24/2018 at 7:37 PM, Mindthinkr said:

I am sitting here alone on Christmas Eve. My brother just called to ask why I hadn’t shown up for dinner at his house. He forgot to invite me. I’m such an afterthought in my family. Going to love on my cats now.

As someone who sees this kind of thing happening in my own future, I sympathize with you. I offer you a hug, a cup of eggnog, and a treat for the cats, too. I have to say, I can’t wait for this damn holiday to be over.

Edited December 26, 2018 by SuzyRhapsody

Mindthinkr · December 25, 2018

Thank you friends. No matter what has been happening in my life or around me I have never lost sight of gratefulness and am blessed by all of you...my PTV family.

VioletNevermind · December 27, 2018

First of all, I wish everyone here a happy holiday and if you didn’t celebrate yesterday, I hope you still had a lovely day, haha.

I would be remiss if I didn’t post an update here after everything I shared a few days ago. I kept the lines of communication open with my daughter over the past few days through the most intense heartache I’ve felt in years. I didn’t make that known to her; I tried to keep it light and breezy. She responded spottily, clearly still feeling closed off. I sent a merry Christmas message yesterday in the morning. She replied nicely and I told her that I’d like to talk with her that morning just to say hi. She said she’d call me an hour later when she got to her father’s girlfriend’s family’s house for Christmas, which she did in private. We had a good conversation (the first phone call since this mess started) and I was able to express a few things that had been weighing on my heart about things that have happened over the past year. I told her that this was our chance to build a new, adult relationship that’s free of the bullshit of the past. I told her that I may not support some of the choices she’s making as she’s turned 18, but that didn’t mean that I don’t love her and support her as my daughter. She was pleasantly surprised at the change in tone. She said that I “didn’t do anything that any normal mother wouldn’t have done.” I thanked her for that and said it was a very mature outlook. I was trying as hard as I could not to break down from the sheer grief of how sad this has been for me. I was about 80% successful.

She said that instead of spending time with her father, she had spent the past two days (including Christmas Eve and Christmas morning) with a guy she’d met two weeks earlier who was in town from TN (I’m in MD) visiting his mother for Christmas. Apparently, he’s in a band (of course). Her father hadn’t done a damn thing to make his home cheery for his daughter’s first ever Christmas morning with him, and he didn’t give a crap where or with whom she spent the night, so she clearly looked elsewhere for holiday cheer. She said this guy was really nice, cool, etc. All the stuff you say about a guy when you’re 18 and almost completely inexperienced. I bit my tongue until I nearly tasted blood and kept my voice nice and neutral. I said I hoped she enjoyed spending time with him. She was clearly building up to something. She told me that she was thinking about accompanying him back to TN when he returned the following morning (today!). It was one of the hardest things I’ve ever had to do, but I responded calmly and just started asking gentle questions about the living arrangements, the trip, what kind of guy he was, etc. She answered the questions openly. She said she was “99.7% sure she was going,” which I knew meant yes. I asked if she could come by to see me before she left and she readily agreed. We spent Christmas texting back and forth, just chatting about the day. It was nice, almost like the old days.

Fast-forward to 7 p.m. last night. She told me that she was heading in my direction with her father and asked if I could meet her in an hour at my (our) house. I immediately left my family’s Christmas celebration and drove like a bat out of hell to get here and she arrived a minute later. I hugged her until we both started laughing at the sheer silliness of the entire thing. We sat down and I told her that I wasn’t interested in mandating any aspect of her life anymore. I said that I wanted her to view me as an advisor more than anything. She unburdened herself about a few “naughty” things she’d been doing lately and I simply listened without judgment or criticism. We had probably the best conversation we’ve had in a few years. She said she was definitely going with this boy for at least nine months, possibly more. I simply wished her luck, urged her to make good decisions and keep talking to me, and started packing up some snacks for the trip in a bag. When she left an hour later, we hugged again as if we were on the deck of The Titanic, and she left. The moment I heard her father’s car pull away, I cried as I have never cried before. She set out this morning for TN.

Right now, my baby is 550 miles and 10 hours away, the farthest she’s ever been from home in her whole life. My stomach is in knots with worry and I can’t wait until she calls to tell me she’s arrived. When I was a couple of years older than she is now, I married her truly horrible father after knowing him for five weeks. I was hoping to steer her in a different direction (school, work, etc.), but this entire experience has taught me a very valuable lesson: You can’t control fate and to try is foolish. In the meantime, I’m going to have to learn all at once how to live alone, move into the first home I’m officially purchasing tomorrow, and love my freshly 18-year-old baby from a distance, even as she makes what I view as a terrible mistake. Again, thanks for “listening!”

Edited December 27, 2018 by SuzyRhapsody

Moose135 · December 27, 2018

I'm sorry that you are going through all of that, @SuzyRhapsody, but I think it's great that you were able to have a conversation with her, let her know how you feel without being judgemental, and keeping the lines of communications open. I wish you well with the new house, and hope all works out well with your daughter.

Bastet · December 27, 2018

You've done very well, @SuzyRhapsody, with refraining from metaphorically shaking your daughter while shouting, "This is the stupidest thing; what the hell is wrong with you?!" Because it is astoundingly stupid, and, unfortunately, this or one of her other dumb-ass decisions may have significant consequences. But she may emerge relatively unharmed, think, "Wow, that was dumb," and move on a bit delayed but with an important lesson learned. She may get herself into the type of hole you did, yet ultimately emerge victorious as you did. Et cetera, et cetera; there's no way of telling. That you've acknowledged to yourself you have to let her make these mistakes, suffer their consequences, and hopefully learn from them, is a big step alone. That you translated that, in the midst of fresh - and holiday-enhanced - emotion into schooling your interaction with her, is truly remarkable; that took a lot of self awareness and strength, and parents with fewer years and easier history under their belts have fumbled in similar circumstances.

You earned that ugly cry, and you've also earned relief and pride at how you handled yourself and hope for how she'll handle herself going forward given this new dynamic. It'll be a bumpy journey for you both, individually, and for your relationship, but there are some good places you may wind up. Keep doing what you're doing. I'm keeping a good thought for you both. In the interim, congratulations on your first owned-home, and I hope you enjoy making it your own.

Edited December 27, 2018 by Bastet

Mindthinkr · December 27, 2018

@SuzyRhapsody I’m glad that you were able to repair some of your relationship with your daughter, that she felt comfortable enough to confide in you (about some of the naughty things) and that she was able to tell you in person about her plans to move to TN with the musician. If it doesn’t go well there she knows your door is open if she needs to come home or call you for advice. Now enjoy buying and decorating your new home. I hope this next chapter in your life brings you contentment and happiness.

DeLurker · December 27, 2018

@SuzyRhapsody - Oh my! You've packed a lot into those 24 - 48 hours! Rather, your daughter did but you did an absolutely impressive feat of maintaining your composure throughout what had to be a ride on an extreme rollercoaster built on a sheer cliff overlooking a 1,000 ft drop into shark infested waters!

I sincerely hope that things go okay for your daughter and, whatever happens, she lands on her feet and a little bit wiser from the experience. Please take this time to invest and enjoy in your own new adventures. Of course, you are still going to be concerned about your daughter but try not to allow that to overrun your thoughts and emotions nor overrule some of the pride of finally being able to purchase your own home (on a much delayed basis).

BookWoman56 · December 28, 2018

20 hours ago, SuzyRhapsody said:

... We had a good conversation (the first phone call since this mess started) and I was able to express a few things that had been weighing on my heart about things that have happened over the past year. I told her that this was our chance to build a new, adult relationship that’s free of the bullshit of the past. I told her that I may not support some of the choices she’s making as she’s turned 18, but that didn’t mean that I don’t love her and support her as my daughter. She was pleasantly surprised at the change in tone. She said that I “didn’t do anything that any normal mother wouldn’t have done.” I thanked her for that and said it was a very mature outlook.

... She told me that she was thinking about accompanying him back to TN when he returned the following morning (today!). It was one of the hardest things I’ve ever had to do, but I responded calmly and just started asking gentle questions about the living arrangements, the trip, what kind of guy he was, etc. She answered the questions openly. She said she was “99.7% sure she was going,” which I knew meant yes. I asked if she could come by to see me before she left and she readily agreed. We spent Christmas texting back and forth, just chatting about the day. It was nice, almost like the old days.

... When I was a couple of years older than she is now, I married her truly horrible father after knowing him for five weeks. I was hoping to steer her in a different direction (school, work, etc.), but this entire experience has taught me a very valuable lesson: You can’t control fate and to try is foolish. In the meantime, I’m going to have to learn all at once how to live alone, move into the first home I’m officially purchasing tomorrow, and love my freshly 18-year-old baby from a distance, even as she makes what I view as a terrible mistake. Again, thanks for “listening!”

There definitely seems to be some progress in repairing your overall relationship, which is great. I know it has to be a wrench that she is going to go live with a guy she barely knows, but this is her life experience to go through. She may be there a couple of weeks and decide she hates it; there's a huge difference between hanging out with someone who's in the area visiting, and living with the same person 24/7 with no family or friends around. She may decide that she wants to stay with the guy for a much longer time. There's just no way to predict right now. However, the experience of doing this should help transform her into having an adult mindset, which I don't think would have occurred as quickly if she had stayed with her father. I hope for everyone's sake that she doesn't go ahead and get married to this guy she barely knows; maybe at least that much of your own history has sunk into her.

Now that she's gone from where you live, though, you have a chance to remake your own life into what you want it to be, versus what you felt it had to be for her sake. I'm thrilled for you that you're buying your first house, because that will give you both a sense of stability and the freedom to decorate and so forth exactly how you want. It's been about 20 years since I divorced my second husband, and I remember the relief that came with it, along with empowerment. As I told my friends, "I have spent the vast majority of my adult life catering to some man's whims, and now I'm going to cater to my own." As radical as this change is for you, embrace it and figure out what you want. In addition to buying the house, you also are free from daily responsibilities regarding having your daughter there. I encourage you to pursue some interests you previously haven't had time for, and spend time with old friends/make new friends if appropriate. And finally, learn to be comfortable both being with people and being alone, as you choose.

VioletNevermind · December 28, 2018

It’s official: Each person who has taken the time to read my posts and/or respond with such kindness is just amazing. I can’t thank you enough for your kind words and advice. I am definitely at the top of the roller coaster at the moment, full of excitement for my home purchase (official at 7:31 tonight; see picture!), but still full of worry and dread for her. Her trip to TN went well. She has been basically communicative since she landed, but definitely not super-chatty. I’m doing my best to give her some space and allow her to initiate contact as she wishes, at least in these early days. I can’t even imagine what’s going on in her young mind. They definitely don’t make rule books for this whole mother thing, do they?

*cleansing breath* Okay, off to homedepot.com to price carpet and paint! ☺️

Edited December 28, 2018 by SuzyRhapsody

DeLurker · December 28, 2018

Congrats @SuzyRhapsody!

This page contains some of my favorite painting tools - the slobproof paint pen, caulk in any color and the Handy Paint Pail. I wish I knew about them when I bought my house a few years ago, especially the slobproof paint pen!

VioletNevermind · December 28, 2018

49 minutes ago, DeLurker said:

Congrats @SuzyRhapsody!

This page contains some of my favorite painting tools - the slobproof paint pen, caulk in any color and the Handy Paint Pail. I wish I knew about them when I bought my house a few years ago, especially the slobproof paint pen!

Hey, thank you! You’re the second person lately who has told me about that paint pen. It looks very handy. The new place needs fresh paint more than anything else, so I’m sure I’ll be buying one! ☺️

OldButHappy · December 28, 2018

On November 26, 2018 at 6:39 PM, bilgistic said:

I know it seems like it, but I'm not knocking the concept of religion. People want to believe in ideas and have others believe with them. I absolutely have issues with how religion is interpreted due to how I was raised "in church", which made me the agnostic I am today.

Me too.

I pray to whatever force/ghost/figment of my imagination might be out there, because it makes me feel better and helps with gratitude and humility. I'm ok with not understanding or defining "God". I got sober when the first Star Wars movie came out, and I used The Force as my higher power. And it's still working for me.

But human religion? No thanks.

My toxic N family was the big-time-show-off-at-church type. And our unhappiest times were the rides to the church, with everyone tense and angry. But once we got to church? Big smiles, perfect outfits, and casual review of the week's selfless and righteous activities with other church members. The hypocrisy makes me uncomfortable in any church, to this day.

So my favorite line when talking to religious types is:

"I love God. I just can't work with his staff."

BookWoman56 · December 31, 2018

I survived the Christmas experience without too much additional drama. I scaled back slightly on what I decided to serve, which helped. My daughter came back around midnight Christmas Eve, and so she was able to set the table and that kind of thing for dinner on Christmas day. My sister did her routine of bitching and moaning about how bad her back/neck/hands are, and then making a half-assed offer to help with cooking. The food turned out okay, and no more discussion of uncomfortable topics. However, by the time the food was ready, I just couldn't deal with sitting at a table with everyone, so I told them to start eating, while I took a break for about 15 minutes so I could psyche myself into being in close proximity to various people at the dining table. The one major hiccup that occurred was when we were getting ready for me to take my sister and her family back to their house. My BIL asked for my car keys so he could put their stuff in the back, and he then proceeded to lock my keys (the only set I have) in the car. Anyway, I was able to use my auto insurance app to get a locksmith to come over and unlock the car, with no charge, which is a good thing because if I'd had to pay whatever the charge would have been for a locksmith to come out on Christmas day, I would have been livid. The small amount in premiums that I pay for the roadside service that includes lockout service is more than offset by being able to get this done with minimal effort and no out-of-pocket expenses.

I'm not doing anything special for New Year's, and although I work on Monday, am taking the rest of the week off, to include one day where I'm going to just jump into my car and spend the day on the road. My daughter knows she'll have to be here with my mother for that day. I just need some time to myself. On the other days, I'll be getting my office straightened up, doing some filing, filling out some paperwork for stuff related to my mother, general housework, and a lot of reading/watching Netflix.

bmasters9 · December 31, 2018

On 12/28/2018 at 11:42 AM, OldButHappy said:

So my favorite line when talking to religious types is:

"I love God. I just can't work with his staff."

Right on the money!

Sun-Bun · January 1, 2019

Awww @SuzyRhapsody, thanks for that update on your daughter; I’ve been following this from afar and have appreciated your openness and honesty here as you deal with all this. I’m not a mother myself and wish I’d had a mom as emotionally healthy and mature as you appear to be(I’ll post more on that hot mess later); for what it’s worth, you certainly sound like you’ve been a loving and devoted mother who’s learned the hard way that some parental relationships need to evolve as children grow into adulthood and establish their independence.

That being said, you’re a model of patience and tolerance...I certainly couldn’t hold my tongue so easily if I had a daughter as disrespectful and immature as yours has acted. I know we were all dumb 18-year-old’s at some point, but bumming around like a teenybopper and still aimlessly hanging out with the skater/rocker crowd with no ambitions otherwise is just so disappointing.

Does she have any career goals at all? Any interests beyond just finding losers to hang out with?? Because now *I’m* worried that she’ll inevitably end up knocked up and crawling back to you to support her and her unplanned new baby when the baby daddy inevitably splits(because unplanned pregnancies aren’t exactly a cool sitch in the skater/rocker scene).

Hopefully she’ll learn to value herself and realize that her life is worth far more than just serving as an ongoing ornament for random dudes—-sounds like she needs to learn how to function as an adult ON HER OWN and not desperately cling to men for some sense of stability and purpose. Hate to say it, but it sounds like her dick excuse of a father only reinforced her sad need to cling to loser guys.

Hang in there and know that you’ve done your best though! You tried tough love and it’s certainly not easy for either party; it can often be heartbreaking and very lonely/isolating, which you’ve obviously experienced. I hope your daughter somehow wises up in time without making *too many* serious mistakes, as experience is often the best teacher.

Most of all, please take this time to rebuild your own life and get used to your new normal. The fresh pain of a suddenly empty nest is so real; my mom tearfully begged me to move back in with her after one of my three attempts to move away throughout my late teens/early twenties. But you have to establish your own life now that she’s officially flown out of the nest for good. Enjoy your new home and pour your heart and soul into decorating it and making it your personal sanctuary. Join a few local groups and/or maybe explore some new social options in your area, maybe treat yourself to a new class or two, volunteer somewhere in your community or adopt a new hobby....just find anything to busy yourself and your mind so you don’t have too much time to obsess on the sudden new void between you and your daughter.

This is the toughest time right now, but it DOES get easier!!

AgentRXS · January 2, 2019

6 hours ago, Sun-Bun said:

That being said, you’re a model of patience and tolerance...I certainly couldn’t hold my tongue so easily if I had a daughter as disrespectful and immature as yours has acted. I know we were all dumb 18-year-old’s at some point, but bumming around like a teenybopper and still aimlessly hanging out with the skater/rocker crowd with no ambitions otherwise is just so disappointing.

Does she have any career goals at all? Any interests beyond just finding losers to hang out with?? Because now *I’m* worried that she’ll inevitably end up knocked up and crawling back to you to support her and her unplanned new baby when the baby daddy inevitably splits(because unplanned pregnancies aren’t exactly a cool sitch in the skater/rocker scene).

Hopefully she’ll learn to value herself and realize that her life is worth far more than just serving as an ongoing ornament for random dudes—-sounds like she needs to learn how to function as an adult ON HER OWN and not desperately cling to men for some sense of stability and purpose. Hate to say it, but it sounds like her dick excuse of a father only reinforced her sad need to cling to loser guys.

Hang in there and know that you’ve done your best though! You tried tough love and it’s certainly not easy for either party; it can often be heartbreaking and very lonely/isolating, which you’ve obviously experienced. I hope your daughter somehow wises up in time without making *too many* serious mistakes, as experience is often the best teacher.

Most of all, please take this time to rebuild your own life and get used to your new normal. The fresh pain of a suddenly empty nest is so real; my mom tearfully begged me to move back in with her after one of my three attempts to move away throughout my late teens/early twenties. But you have to establish your own life now that she’s officially flown out of the nest for good. Enjoy your new home and pour your heart and soul into decorating it and making it your personal sanctuary. Join a few local groups and/or maybe explore some new social options in your area, maybe treat yourself to a new class or two, volunteer somewhere in your community or adopt a new hobby....just find anything to busy yourself and your mind so you don’t have too much time to obsess on the sudden new void between you and your daughter.

I agree with all of this. Please stay strong, and please do not let her emotionally manipulate you to keep constant access to your wallet. Some of life's most important lessons are learned when you have made your bed and are forced to lie in. Be supportive and loving, but don't be a doormat. She will respect you all the more for it in the end.

Sun-Bun · January 2, 2019

Since it’s the holidays and this is often the toughest time for those of us who have to deal with dysfunctional family members, I’ll join in on all the sharing fun here.

As my husband jokes, I’m pretty much Marilyn and the rest of my family are “The Munsters;” it’s just my mother and my brother left from my side of the family, but both of their socially-stunted selves get even weirder this time of year. My brother is a divorcee with no kids and has never had an emotionally healthy relationship since then, ditto my mother. They distrust everyone, don’t have any real friends and are freakishly private, especially about people coming into their houses. Like I can count on my hand the number of times I was “allowed” to have friends come over to my house as a child; my mom refers to my husband of 11 years as “company” still and often makes excuses to not allow him or anyone beyond my brother and me inside her house.

So due to the fact that my mom and brother are both such socially-stunted freaks, my husband and I are left to either split town or meet them at a local restaurant for Thanksgiving/Christmas dinner. Which is fine, but sometimes I’d like to just enjoy something for the four of us at home—-I LOVE being a hostess and am often left to host dinners for them in my 1200 sf loft, even though they both live in 3 bd/3 bth large houses. And of course the 12 minute drive to my place is “soooo far out” for them both. This year as usual, neither of them offered to do a damned thing or even consider hosting Christmas lunch at their houses, so of course I gladly told them to come over to my place for the big meal, which they begrudgingly did.

Mind you, hubs and I have an ongoing tradition of hosting friends/his extended family for cocktails at our place every Christmas night. My mom and brother were late getting there and then lingered at our place for a bit over 3 hours, when my husband politely let them know as he started to clean our place up that they were more than welcome to stay, but we were having more guests over in an hour and needed to prep.

My brother then quickly herded my mom up and left in a huff; the next day he chewed me out on the phone claiming that he “felt rushed and disrespected” and that it was “shitty” of me to have a Christmas meal for them first and then have guests over later because I should’ve reserved that entire day “just for our family.”

What bullshit. I just said “I’m sorry you feel that way, I certainly didn’t mean to offend you, but thanks for a lovely Christmas.”

Now my mom is pouting at me/ignoring my calls because I’ve been in New Orleans the past three days to ring in NYE with my hubby and some in-laws. Because how dare I have any fun without her—-I literally can’t ever discuss my trips with her because she tells me I’m “rubbing it in.” She always wants to come on every trip with my husband and me, but never mind that her seventy-something self can barely walk half a mile, she gets snippy/bitchy/demanding on trips, and she’s picky about what we do and especially where we eat(basically she has the eating habits of a small child). So much for a mom just being happy for her daughter and son-in-law enjoying life together...obviously I’m just having a good time to hurt her, right?

I’ve had friends tell me over the years how toxic my family is and that I should just cut them off for good. It’s not in my nature to be so cruel, but sometimes I wonder if I’d feel much happier and freer if I were able to finally cut them loose and not have to fall victim to their own ongoing emotional issues.

Edited January 2, 2019 by Sun-Bun

tinkerbell · January 2, 2019

@SuzyRhapsody, with kids that age, it's like walking a tightrope, trying not to fall off. On one side, if you're too soft, you're doomed because she'll take advantage of you and not respect you. On the other side, if you're too tough, you're doomed because you could lose her. It sounds to me like you're doing a good job, being tough but supportive. But walking that tightrope is exhausting.

At 18, not all kids are adults in the way that they think or act. The more you try to push them in one direction, the more they push back in the opposite direction. So you can't tell her what to do, how to live her life. You CAN tell her what you're willing to do to help her, and what the rules are if she wants to live with you.

We did have a serious issue with one son, after college, and after he made a few stupid mistakes. We wrote up a contract, and we all signed it. It spelled out the expectations - tell us if you won't be home, don't block the driveway, keep your room and bathroom relatively clean, pitch in on chores. We assigned him hours in which he could use the laundry room, and when he could use the kitchen to cook the special food he prepped for the week. he had to agree to drug tests and random room searches. No visitors in the house unless we were home, and no overnight guests. Nothing illegal. No yelling at us, he was to speak respectfully at all times. we made sure he knew his top priority was to find a job. Once he was working, We also charged "rent", which he objected to, until we wrote out how much WE were paying for mortgage, utilities, cell phone plan, etc, Any time he objected to the rules, we reminded him he was free to leave.

I was never 100% sure of how we were handling things, but my husband and I just decided to figure out what we were willing to put up with and what we were not. I always tried to strike a balance between love/support and laying down the law. I know there were times I screwed it up - the kid has the ability to push my buttons like nobody else does. But we talked things out and I realized how I pushed his buttons too.

One interesting thing - he used to tell us how his friend "B", had nicer parents, who didn't make him do anything, did his laundry for him, didn't make him do chores or pay rent. Now, it's 8 years later. my son has a good job, just got a promotion, has a car he bought, an apartment, and is going back to grad school. His friend "B" is still spending his days smoking weed and playing video games in his parents basement.

Edited January 2, 2019 by tinkerbell

BookWoman56 · January 3, 2019

19 hours ago, Sun-Bun said:

...This year as usual, neither of them offered to do a damned thing or even consider hosting Christmas lunch at their houses, so of course I gladly told them to come over to my place for the big meal, which they begrudgingly did.

...Now my mom is pouting at me/ignoring my calls because I’ve been in New Orleans the past three days to ring in NYE with my hubby and some in-laws. Because how dare I have any fun without her—-I literally can’t ever discuss my trips with her because she tells me I’m “rubbing it in.” She always wants to come on every trip with my husband and me, but never mind that her seventy-something self can barely walk half a mile, she gets snippy/bitchy/demanding on trips, and she’s picky about what we do and especially where we eat(basically she has the eating habits of a small child). So much for a mom just being happy for her daughter and son-in-law enjoying life together...obviously I’m just having a good time to hurt her, right?

I’ve had friends tell me over the years how toxic my family is and that I should just cut them off for good. It’s not in my nature to be so cruel, but sometimes I wonder if I’d feel much happier and freer if I were able to finally cut them loose and not have to fall victim to their own ongoing emotional issues.

I'm not going to say that you should cut them off completely, because obviously you aren't comfortable doing that. But you should consider putting a lot less effort into maintaining a relationship with two toxic people who happen to be family members. You've hosted them for holiday meals this year and presumably in previous years as well. For 2019, maybe just leave the ball in their court, so to speak. If they want a holiday meal shared with you and your husband, then it's about damn time they reciprocated the hospitality. One of them can invite you to his/her home, or meet for dinner at a restaurant, but you have done way more than your share of bending over backwards to accommodate them. I'm a pretty private person myself, so I understand not wanting to invite a horde of people into my home for a holiday. But you and your husband are family, and it's not like it's you, your husband, and a dozen other people.

If you do host them again for Christmas dinner, by all means stick to your tradition of having your own evening celebration with your husband's friends/extended family. Remind your mother and brother ahead of time that dinner is being served in a specific time frame, and that although they're welcome to stay for the evening cocktails, you will be busy hosting other people. If your brother tries to guilt-trip you again, just recognize it as his attempt to manipulate you into doing what he wants, when he wants it. It's not your responsibility to cater to his preferences, or to your mother's.

I'm currently having to deal very occasionally with a sibling that I can't stand, thankfully no more than twice a year. And I'm doing it strictly out of consideration for my mother, who is 90 and gets confused easily, and who doesn't need to get caught in the middle of bad feelings both I and my older sister have for our younger sister. But my older sister and I have a pact that once my mother dies, there is no reason whatsoever to have any interaction with our younger sister. There's just too much bad history there of ongoing manipulation, using people, etc. Until about 6 months ago, neither my older sister nor I had spoken to our younger sister for almost 5 years. And I have to say, the lack of contact and the lack of frustration over interactions with her made my life much more pleasant during that 5 years. Not sure if this perspective will help, but consider this: If your brother and mother were not family members, would you have the slightest inclination to invest energy into a relationship with them? Life is too damn short to waste on dysfunctional relationships where the only benefit to you is not feeling guilty that you've left these people to their own devices.

Sun-Bun · January 3, 2019

15 hours ago, BookWoman56 said:

But my older sister and I have a pact that once my mother dies, there is no reason whatsoever to have any interaction with our younger sister. There's just too much bad history there of ongoing manipulation, using people, etc. Until about 6 months ago, neither my older sister nor I had spoken to our younger sister for almost 5 years. And I have to say, the lack of contact and the lack of frustration over interactions with her made my life much more pleasant during that 5 years. Not sure if this perspective will help, but consider this: If your brother and mother were not family members, would you have the slightest inclination to invest energy into a relationship with them? Life is too damn short to waste on dysfunctional relationships where the only benefit to you is not feeling guilty that you've left these people to their own devices.

Thanks so much for this, @BookWoman56; I remember reading some of your older threads on that very topic earlier in this specific forum. So sorry that you’re still having to deal with the godawful messy younger sister whom no one likes; doesn’t she also have a history of drug abuse/stealing drugs from family members?(hope I’m not confusing your story with someone else’s awful younger sister here)

Either way, I wish you luck on future dealings with her and I truly appreciate your attitude about life—-you seem to have a very good outlook and idea on how healthy family relations need to be.

Quite frankly, NO I wouldn’t hang with my mom and brother I’d they weren’t my only immediate family members; I just don’t hang with negative, nitpicky assholes as a rule. My husband has as little interaction with them as possible and it’s been very healthy for him than when he initially tried to win them over years ago. Wish I could do the same, but I am thinking as a resolution for the new year that I’ll need to distance myself more and be a little stealthier about sharing my plans and future doings with them. Thanks for the food for thought.

DeLurker · January 3, 2019

@Sun-Bun - sounds like your Mom and brother are going to find something to be unhappy about no matter what you do, so acknowledge the truth in this and make your choices based on what is in line with what you and your husband want to do. Hosting two separate events on Christmas is a lot - even if you love it. Maybe this year, only host the Christmas cocktails as is the tradition - invite your Mom and brother to that, but don't cater to their demands for time and attention during the event. They can choose to decline, attend and leave at any point they see fit.

27 minutes ago, Sun-Bun said:

I am thinking as a resolution for the new year that I’ll need to distance myself more and be a little stealthier about sharing my plans and future doings with them.

Start asserting the changes now. Taking trips with your husband alone because you want to is nothing to feel guilty about - no matter what your Mom lays on! Maybe offset or preempt some of the sting by planning a girl's trip with your Mom so he doesn't have to forgo activities he'd enjoy and her trip is tailored to her mobility limits and interests.

Not sure how I feel about you needing to be stealthier - seems like you are hiding some wrong doing and you clearly aren't. If they start in on being left out of your plans, tell them you'd be glad to join them on something of their liking so if they plan something, you'll do your best to join in the fun.

Sun-Bun · January 3, 2019

Thanks so much for that wise advice, @DeLurker; true enough, mom and brother are indeed the type of folks who immediately assume the negative about *anything* and are just generally unhappy people.

Even today when I finally got her on the phone, she then started picking apart my finances and the fact that I surely can’t afford my lifestyle/travels because I’m “in serious debt”(she thinks anyone who has a mortgage/car payment is “in serious debt”). Bro just agrees with her and feeds into her weirdness because she considers him the Golden Child and is more useful to her/thinks he’s smarter than me...and he conveniently inherited her mother’s house while she still lives in the house her mother bought her. So of course I’m “in serious debt” to them since I actually paid for my own house/car.

I should add that my mom has an ongoing drinking problem—-she no longer drives drunk(thank god), but she doesn’t have an off switch once she gets to drinking, and has had various injuries due to this. I’ve quit drinking with her socially for that reason, but another reason I don’t like to travel with her anymore is because suddenly I have to play babysitter if I dare enjoy a drink and she’s there with me. Putting my foot down on this kind of behavior so far hasn’t worked, but I’ve at least limited my exposure to her more harmful behaviors in recent years.

Appreciate you all listening and reading, btw; this is much cheaper than therapy!(which I’m honestly considering treating myself to this year)

Edited January 3, 2019 by Sun-Bun

BookWoman56 · January 4, 2019

6 hours ago, Sun-Bun said:

Thanks so much for this, @BookWoman56; I remember reading some of your older threads on that very topic earlier in this specific forum. So sorry that you’re still having to deal with the godawful messy younger sister whom no one likes; doesn’t she also have a history of drug abuse/stealing drugs from family members?(hope I’m not confusing your story with someone else’s awful younger sister here)

Either way, I wish you luck on future dealings with her and I truly appreciate your attitude about life—-you seem to have a very good outlook and idea on how healthy family relations need to be.

Quite frankly, NO I wouldn’t hang with my mom and brother I’d they weren’t my only immediate family members; I just don’t hang with negative, nitpicky assholes as a rule. My husband has as little interaction with them as possible and it’s been very healthy for him than when he initially tried to win them over years ago. Wish I could do the same, but I am thinking as a resolution for the new year that I’ll need to distance myself more and be a little stealthier about sharing my plans and future doings with them. Thanks for the food for thought.

Yes, my younger sister is the one with a history of drug abuse; it's primarily been her husband who stole drugs from family members. But I hold her culpable as well for his behavior, as she has done fuck all to stop it and has enabled it. Roughly 10 years ago, when both my parents were still alive, they offered to have her come live with them rent-free in exchange for helping them out while my father was dealing with some serious health issues. But the caveat was the husband was not welcome there. She refused the offer because she didn't want to leave her husband. Why she sticks with him is beyond me, because in the time she's been with him, she's gone from having at least something of a career and being able to support herself to living in extreme poverty with no job of her own (she claims she's disabled but has never been able to get any federal or state agency to agree with that), while her husband has bounced around from job to job, and their living conditions have steadily deteriorated. And I understand that in a normal family dynamic, it would be unreasonable for my parents to have stipulated that if she wanted to move back in with them, her husband wasn't welcome. But by that point, he had stolen enough of my father's pain meds on an ongoing basis (along with some pretty expensive tools, plus some of my mother's stuff that subsequently showed up in a few local pawn shops) that having him in their house as a resident was just not workable.

My attitude toward family relationships (and other relationships, whether friends, colleagues, or romantic partners) has "evolved" over the years. As I've gotten older, my ability to tolerate bullshit has decreased significantly, and so I am much less willing at this point in my life to just let people take advantage of me or to engage in bad behavior without there being consequences. I'm not the keeper of my sister's conscience (or anyone else's), so I'm not going to try to tell her how to run her life or what decisions she should make. But I can control the extent to which I'm willing to allow her in my life, which even given that my mother is a factor here, is pretty damn minimal.

For your situation, I think it's a great idea for you to distance yourself a little more from your mother and brother, and to not share your plans with them unless there's a good reason to do so. Essentially, if you don't want to take your mother with you on a trip (and it sounds like she wouldn't go anyway, and would be miserable company if she did), then just enjoy the trip with your husband. You're an adult; you don't have to tell her you're going to be out of town. In this age of cell phones, she or your brother can reach you that way if there is a need to, and it's really none of their business if you are at home when you get a call from them, or 1000 miles away. While it's not the same thing, one of my regrets in life is that for years and years, almost every time I took a vacation or holiday trip, I went to see my parents instead of doing things that I wanted to do for myself. Not saying that I would have skipped seeing them entirely, but in retrospect, for my own benefit I probably should have alternated years, with one year of going to see them and one year of doing something I really wanted to do for myself and my daughter, even if it was just staying home for a laid back holiday rather than traveling. So when you have your own plans that don't include your mother and/or brother, go right ahead with those plans. It's your life, and your responsibility is for your own happiness, not contorting yourself to fit their preferences.

BuyMoreAndSave · January 4, 2019

I wish my life didn't have so many external complications. Other people get to just worry about themselves, or themselves and their spouse, or themselves and their spouse and their children. For my husband and I we always have to figure out everyone else's life. I can't even figure out my own life!

1) First in 2014 my dad became homeless. He inherited almost $300K from my grandma but he spent it all in less than three years, much of it at the strip club. He also was not working at the time as he got laid off during the recession and stopped looking for another full-time job. I wasn't talking to him at the time when he was homeless because I was pissed off that a) he was pathologically lying at the time to manipulate me, and after I stopped talking to him, to manipulate his relatives into hating me, and b) while he was doing the whole strip club thing he was hiding it from me the entire time until one day (a few days before I was about to graduate college BTW, so I had my own major life transition going on), I suddenly heard from my brother about all this stuff that had been going on.

So for months my dad was living in his car and friends' couches. He wouldn't do anything to help himself like filling out applications for disability or anything. My brother and my dad's friends had to do it all. Even though I wasn't talking to him he continued to stalk me and one day my brother asked me to talk to him and try to figure out what to do. I told him that he should check himself into a mental hospital because clearly he had a mental problem and they could help him find housing because I don't think they can release you onto the street from a mental hospital. He refused to do it for months but eventually when winter was coming that's what he ended up doing. It actually worked and he got disability for depression and they found housing for him in a group home for adults with mental illnesses, where he lives to this day. Now he is also getting Social Security from retirement which is more than disability was, so hopefully homelessness won't be an issue in the future. But like...why did my brother and I have to do it all...first of all he was not there for us, he abandoned us with our abusive mom and also left my brother with his abusive girlfriend or even abandoned him for weeks at a time while he was off gallivanting with her...and when I was hospitalized for depression in college he didn't bother to come visit me.

2) My MIL has been living with us for over a year and a half. It wasn't a situation I ever wanted to happen. She started shit with me many times, including trying to take over our wedding planning so that 90% of the guests would be her relatives that we didn't even know, and constantly trying to guilt-trip us into moving to Florida back when she lived there even though neither of us wanted to live there. She is also a hoarder (my late FIL was also a hoarder) and left an entire house full of crap for my husband to deal with while she lived in Florida. She came back in 2016 "to deal with the house" (which consisted of moving stuff around instead of actually getting rid of anything), got very sick and almost died due to health issues that she knew about for over five years yet never dealt with them before it became dangerous, and was in the hospital for almost a year, much of it on a ventilator. She has this stupid conure who screams constantly at ear-splitting levels, bites everyone who gets within two feet of it except my husband, and shits literally every ten minutes (and nobody cleans it up but me). We had to take care of her stupid bird while she was in the hospital because of course she never made arrangements for what to do with it in case of emergency. At the time we were living in an apartment that didn't allow pets and we had this thing screaming so loudly it could be heard outside and shitting on the carpet...it's a miracle nobody said anything and we didn't get evicted.

We had a few weeks' warning before she was released from the hospital, barely able to walk or talk, to find a new place and figure out how to care for a disabled person. Originally she planned to live with another relative in Maryland but then that fell through (probably because the other person realized what they were getting into) and suddenly by default she was going to move in with us. The hospital just assumed that we would do it all. They didn't even ask. All they gave her was a home health aide who came three times a week for a couple of hours...for someone who could barely walk or talk. I spent forever looking for a place with two bedrooms, good reviews, that was disability accessible, and that allowed pets (95% of apartments do not allow pets). Miraculously with under a month to spare I found a place that fit those criteria and had one two-bedroom apartment available, which we miraculously managed to get. If we hadn't gotten that apartment we would have had to send the parrot to a bird sanctuary indefinitely and pay $1000 a year to board her there.

Did I get one word of thanks from her? No. Instead she bitched about how she wanted to go back to the house (the hoarder house with dust and black mold...while she had respiratory issues which she almost died from months earlier), accused my husband of "elder abuse" for forcing her to live in our nice apartment instead of allowing her to move back into the house (how cruel!) and said I was a tyrant because I wanted a modicum of cleanliness and didn't let her do things like pile her stuff on the dining table and leave it there for weeks so nobody could use the table for actually eating, or keep rotten produce in the refrigerator while insisting it was still good. Once she even got mad at me for cursing in my own home! She also once told me I was an animal abuser because when we had the bird in the other apartment, we had to leave it in the cage when we weren't home instead of letting it out because otherwise it would make a huge mess.

This was only supposed to be a temporary situation until she was no longer housebound. Her recovery went well and she has not been housebound since about August 2017. She now goes to the town senior center five times a week, she walks up to a mile a day, and she even does some of her own grocery shopping (there is a bus in town that goes to the supermarket twice a week). She also not only has enough money to rent her own place, but she is a multi-millionaire (she dresses and lives like she's dirt poor, but apparently she's actually rich). And as I mentioned before, she hates me. During an argument last year she called me "the most conniving person she had ever met" (says the person who openly brags about how she manipulated people in her previous job as a stockbroker), that I don't understand love because I don't have a "real family," and that she wishes my husband never married me. During this same argument, which happened a year ago, she said she would move out within the next few months.

Yet she still. Fucking. Lives here. Why?

Well the reason why is because this is how she always wanted it. She always wanted to live with my husband. In her culture the in-laws are supposed to live with their son (and he's her only child) and the daughter-in-law is supposed to be their servant and subservient to them. So I guess she hates me because I'm not going to be her slave. My husband said if she moved out she would see it as "being abandoned to die alone." I guess she just sees me as a fly in the ointment and that all her problems would be solved if my husband would kick me out. Her plan all along was for this to be a permanent situation yet she (and possibly my husband) tricked me into thinking it would be for a year or less. I let a lot of things slide to keep the peace because my husband gets so upset whenever there's an argument. BTW meanwhile my husband has put in hundreds of hours in the past year to clean up her hoarder house.

3) My brother has a cash-flow problem. He dropped out of high school due to a learning disability. He also refuses to get his GED due to the same disability (I don't know if he actually would not be able to do it, but he won't even try, even when my MIL offered to tutor him for free). He works two jobs and still can't pay the bills. It's the NYC area and something like 43% of homeless people are employed. He has been partially supporting himself on his share of my grandma's inheritance (half of what my dad got), but now that is running out and it's possible he could be homeless sometime in 2019. I have my own opinions on how he could have made better life decisions such as living in a room in a shared house instead of renting an entire one-bedroom apartment (which he doesn't want to do for some reason, whether it's fear of the unknown or not wanting to give away his furniture), but it's not really relevant anymore. In any case he is depressed and if he becomes homeless it's possible/likely he will commit suicide. This is a problem I have been not thinking about for a while because I have my own problems and I didn't have any good solution to it but eventually it will be yet another crisis.

****

Yesterday my MIL took a shower and the drain got backed up. Instead of calling maintenance or saying anything, she just left it there. I went to take a shower and had all my clothes off and everything and I opened the curtain to find a foot of water in the tub. I got pissed that she didn't say or do anything about it and I assumed she did something to clog it and then tried to pretend it didn't happen, because why else would she just leave it there? While I was trying to plunge the tub drain the stupid bird was also fucking screaming at the top of its lungs as it had been doing all day. I told my husband that I didn't want for this to be my life and I was tired of having other people impose on my life and fuck my shit up constantly. She got pissed and acted like a victim, even to the point of loudly asking the maintenance guy if there are any one-bedroom rentals available in our building.

So I was like, "well, if she's actually going to move out finally, then maybe my brother can move into the extra bedroom because the rent will be way cheaper than his current place and then he won't be homeless and maybe not being alone so much will help with his depression." I asked my husband if we could do this and he got really upset and was like "I'm not going to kick my mom out" and accused me of trying to upset her to get her to move out (which is not true, I just thought of this plan today). But like...a) she was supposed to move out a year ago according to the original plan, b) she can afford to live wherever she wants, c) if she can live independently and has money and hates living with a neat-freak tyrant harpy bitch like me, then why the fuck does she insist on still living here? d) I never asked to live with her or her fucking bird for the rest of their lives, e) I lived with my abusive mom who hated me for 21 years and I do not want to spend any more time living with people who hate me, f) she had a house but she chose to ruin it through her poor life decisions, which is not my fault. How selfish can a person possibly be? Yet I'm the bitch for saying that the utility is maximized by her moving out now that her emergency situation is resolved and allowing someone who actually needs it to move in. If she didn't have the stupid bird we could even rent a house (which would be cheaper than two apartments) and have space for everyone, but as I said, 95% of places don't allow pets and I don't want to go through the stress of doing that search again.

Edited January 4, 2019 by BuyMoreAndSave

Mindthinkr · January 4, 2019

Wow @BuyMoreAndSave I’m so sorry to hear about your living situation. It sounds stressful and I don’t know how you deal with that bird screeching (not to mention the clean up). Unfortunately it sounds like a no-win, and I hate to think that you feel stuck in a unhappy household. I don’t have any answers or insight for you, but please accept this virtual hug and my meditation for your well being.

DeLurker · January 4, 2019

@BuyMoreAndSave - you really are dealing with a lot, plus you’ve got some serious family history of your own that can’t be helping.

I think some therapy would be helpful - not because there’s clearly something wrong with you, but because there are clearly unhealthy dynamics that you deal with every day that everyone seems to expect you will just deal with so it doesn’t make their life unpleasant.

I’m going to have nightmares about that damn bird - it needs to be confined to your MILs room at the very least.

Good thoughts coming your way.

BuyMoreAndSave · January 4, 2019

2 hours ago, Mindthinkr said:

Wow @BuyMoreAndSave I’m so sorry to hear about your living situation. It sounds stressful and I don’t know how you deal with that bird screeching (not to mention the clean up). Unfortunately it sounds like a no-win, and I hate to think that you feel stuck in a unhappy household. I don’t have any answers or insight for you, but please accept this virtual hug and my meditation for your well being.

Thanks. The win would be if everyone else figured out their own life.

1 hour ago, DeLurker said:

@BuyMoreAndSave - you really are dealing with a lot, plus you’ve got some serious family history of your own that can’t be helping.

I think some therapy would be helpful - not because there’s clearly something wrong with you, but because there are clearly unhealthy dynamics that you deal with every day that everyone seems to expect you will just deal with so it doesn’t make their life unpleasant.

I’m going to have nightmares about that damn bird - it needs to be confined to your MILs room at the very least.

Good thoughts coming your way.

Therapy doesn't work and I'm tired of it being suggested as a solution. My brother already has been in therapy for a year and it hasn't made him any less depressed.

He needs more income and less time spent alone, not therapy. Human beings are not meant to live alone if you look at our traditional social structure and I think a lot of people don't do well living alone (me included) and increased social isolation is one reason behind the rising mental illness rates. The fact that so many people are not being paid a living wage also contributes to rising mental illness rates. I think it has also been good for my MIL to not live alone. But I don't know why I am always the person who has to think of a solution for everyone else and they just throw difficulties in the way such as the bird. And again, why is it me who has to go to therapy, why doesn't she go to therapy for her hoarding and control issues?

The bird is confined to her room most of the day. However, when my husband gets home the bird goes on his shoulder (if he doesn't let it, it screams) and goes around the apartment. It shits on him and he sometimes sits down and then gets the bird shit on the wall or the couch, or sometimes the shit falls off onto the floor. He is supposed to do all the cleanup associated with the bird (that was a condition of the bird staying here) but he "doesn't notice" and so every week I have to go around and clean up a bunch of dried bird poop from the floor. At least we have wood floors in this apartment and not carpet like the previous apartment.

Apparently other bird owners have the same problem of it shitting everywhere but they don't care because they love the bird -- well the bird tries to bite me if I get within two feet of my husband while it's on his shoulder, and the bird actually HAS bitten me in the past. I think parrots are not domesticated the way dogs or cats are and should not be pets, and that we essentially have a wild animal living with us.

Edited January 4, 2019 by BuyMoreAndSave

BookWoman56 · January 4, 2019

1 hour ago, BuyMoreAndSave said:

Therapy doesn't work and I'm tired of it being suggested as a solution. My brother already has been in therapy for a year and it hasn't made him any less depressed.

He needs more income and less time spent alone, not therapy. Human beings are not meant to live alone if you look at our traditional social structure and I think a lot of people don't do well living alone (me included) and increased social isolation is one reason behind the rising mental illness rates. The fact that so many people are not being paid a living wage also contributes to rising mental illness rates. I think it has also been good for my MIL to not live alone. But I don't know why I am always the person who has to think of a solution for everyone else and they just throw difficulties in the way such as the bird. And again, why is it me who has to go to therapy, why doesn't she go to therapy for her hoarding and control issues?

Therapy doesn't work for everyone, but in my experience, it seldom works alone. A combination of the right meds and therapy can result in significant improvement, but again, not for everyone. I don't think anyone is suggesting therapy for you as an indication that you have mental illness issues. Again, based only on my own experience, therapy can be useful both for people who have major mental illness issues, and for those people who have to live with/deal with the ones who do have mental illnesses. It can be useful, for example, to explore questions such as why someone is willing to let other people manipulate him/her on an ongoing basis. But it's obviously something that you aren't comfortable with and it sounds as if you resent the suggestion, because it may come off as implying that you are the one with depression, hoarding tendencies, etc., when that's not the case. But mental illness is not something to be ashamed of; it's just an illness. As for living alone, some of us are wired differently and do need to live alone or at least have a lot of solitude.

That said, though, I agree you don't need therapy. Based on your comments, what you need is to extricate yourself from a situation that is making you angry and upset, and that from an outsider's perspective, seems completely untenable for any reasonable person. You should not have to live with a MIL who is imposing her hoarding tendencies, negative attitudes, and exotic pets on you and your husband, especially not since she can easily afford her own home and home health care aides or cleaning services, etc. You should not have to clean up after the damn bird, regardless of whether it's your MIL or husband letting it out of the cage so it can make a mess everywhere. You agreed, apparently, to having your MIL there for a year, which has already passed, but not to anything longer than one year. So, at this point, your MIL is not your responsibility.

Your MIL is being unreasonable in her demands. But what I don't understand is why your husband is willing to let this situation continue. You mentioned the cultural expectations that the MIL would live with her son, but is that something he buys into? Because again, from an outsider's viewpoint, it sounds as if he's perfectly willing to put his mother's demands at a much higher priority level than your needs and well-being. You're not asking him to put his indigent mother out on the streets to starve; you're asking that she honor the original commitment and leave your household after the specified time frame. Your husband is imposing a double standard on your marriage, in which it's perfectly okay for his mother to live with you indefinitely even though she can well afford to live on her own, but it's not acceptable for you to help out your brother who is both ill and unable to afford his own home. That's not an equitable situation, because the subtext here is that what you want and need is way less important than what your MIL wants, and by extension, what your husband wants or accepts.

Many years ago, while I was still married to my second husband, I found myself in a situation that has slight similarities. I had agreed to have his mother live with us; she had been diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic. For a variety of reasons, though, she had to discontinue some of the anti-psychotic meds she was taking, and her condition seriously deteriorated, which caused me to quit my job because she was constantly leaving stove burners on, etc., and I was afraid she would burn the house down if I wasn't there 24/7. It became apparent to me that she needed to be in some kind of assisted living facility for people with similar conditions, but my husband initially refused to even consider the idea. After a few months of dealing with this, I decided to take action. I went for an extended visit with my family, and left my husband alone to deal with his mother for roughly a month. Sure enough, after a month of having to take care of her and deal with all the ongoing issues, the first thing he said when I got back home was that she needed to go into a facility. He spent a couple of weeks looking for one and got her settled into it, and everybody was much happier, including her.

It doesn't sound as if a similar tactic to leave home for a while is an option for you, but what if you simply refuse to clean up after your MIL and her bird for a month? That is, announce to your husband that your MIL's living with you is well past the one-year limit you agreed to, and if he wants her in your home, it's 100% his responsibility to deal with her and the chaos she creates. Failing that, you need to start asking yourself some hard questions: At what point, if any, are you willing to give your husband an ultimatum that either his mother leaves, or you leave? If it means the end of your marriage otherwise, are you willing to accept the current situation indefinitely? To what extent does it bother you that your husband seemingly places more importance on what his mother wants than on what you want?

I apologize in advance if my comments about your situation and your husband sound harsh. I'm not advocating for you to leave your husband. But I am advocating for you to sit down with your husband and have a very serious discussion about what's going on in your life, and possible options and solutions. If he's unwilling to help find a solution that works for both of you, then you need to focus on doing whatever is necessary for you to be happy. Very bluntly, nobody should have to live the way you are currently living. You deserve much better than that.

Bastet · January 4, 2019

37 minutes ago, BookWoman56 said:

Your MIL is being unreasonable in her demands. But what I don't understand is why your husband is willing to let this situation continue. You mentioned the cultural expectations that the MIL would live with her son, but is that something he buys into? Because again, from an outsider's viewpoint, it sounds as if he's perfectly willing to put his mother's demands at a much higher priority level than your needs and well-being. ... Your husband is imposing a double standard on your marriage, in which it's perfectly okay for his mother to live with you indefinitely even though she can well afford to live on her own, but it's not acceptable for you to help out your brother who is both ill and unable to afford his own home. That's not an equitable situation, because the subtext here is that what you want and need is way less important than what your MIL wants, and by extension, what your husband wants or accepts.

Yes, the root of all the problems at home seems quite clearly to be the husband, and your advice is spot on.

Edited January 4, 2019 by Bastet

BuyMoreAndSave · January 4, 2019

20 minutes ago, BookWoman56 said:

Therapy doesn't work for everyone, but in my experience, it seldom works alone. A combination of the right meds and therapy can result in significant improvement, but again, not for everyone. I don't think anyone is suggesting therapy for you as an indication that you have mental illness issues. Again, based only on my own experience, therapy can be useful both for people who have major mental illness issues, and for those people who have to live with/deal with the ones who do have mental illnesses. It can be useful, for example, to explore questions such as why someone is willing to let other people manipulate him/her on an ongoing basis. But it's obviously something that you aren't comfortable with and it sounds as if you resent the suggestion, because it may come off as implying that you are the one with depression, hoarding tendencies, etc., when that's not the case. But mental illness is not something to be ashamed of; it's just an illness. As for living alone, some of us are wired differently and do need to live alone or at least have a lot of solitude.

Having a difficult family is not a reason to take medication. And if you're talking about my MIL, even if she agreed to do therapy or go on medication, I don't think there is any medication approved to treat hoarding disorder. My dad has ruined his health because he has to take psychiatric medication in order to not lose his housing. He gained 50 pounds, has high blood pressure, and short-term memory loss, none of which he had before taking this medication, and also has to take blood pressure medicine and water pills now which limits his life and where he can go. I would never take any of those poisons personally. I already took Klonopin in the past and even though I was on the lowest dose, it caused permanent side effects.

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That said, though, I agree you don't need therapy. Based on your comments, what you need is to extricate yourself from a situation that is making you angry and upset, and that from an outsider's perspective, seems completely untenable for any reasonable person. You should not have to live with a MIL who is imposing her hoarding tendencies, negative attitudes, and exotic pets on you and your husband, especially not since she can easily afford her own home and home health care aides or cleaning services, etc. You should not have to clean up after the damn bird, regardless of whether it's your MIL or husband letting it out of the cage so it can make a mess everywhere. You agreed, apparently, to having your MIL there for a year, which has already passed, but not to anything longer than one year. So, at this point, your MIL is not your responsibility.

Your MIL is being unreasonable in her demands. But what I don't understand is why your husband is willing to let this situation continue. You mentioned the cultural expectations that the MIL would live with her son, but is that something he buys into? Because again, from an outsider's viewpoint, it sounds as if he's perfectly willing to put his mother's demands at a much higher priority level than your needs and well-being. You're not asking him to put his indigent mother out on the streets to starve; you're asking that she honor the original commitment and leave your household after the specified time frame. Your husband is imposing a double standard on your marriage, in which it's perfectly okay for his mother to live with you indefinitely even though she can well afford to live on her own, but it's not acceptable for you to help out your brother who is both ill and unable to afford his own home. That's not an equitable situation, because the subtext here is that what you want and need is way less important than what your MIL wants, and by extension, what your husband wants or accepts.

Technically there wasn't a formal agreement for her to move out after a certain time. At the time we didn't know how long her recovery would take or if she would ever be recovered, although we expected her to have at least some improvement. Her recovery of mobility was much faster than even her doctors expected. It was my understanding that she would live here until she could live on her own. I don't know if she got that message because my husband wouldn't let me discuss it with her because he thought she might get upset and he didn't want to upset her while she was still sick and on bottled oxygen. It's possible he never actually told her she wasn't supposed to stay here forever. Of course the definition of "could live on her own" is debatable. One could say that she still can't live on her own because she can't drive, or because she still has hoarding disorder, or because she would get depressed and not take care of her life if she lived alone (which is what led to her health situation developing in the first place). However she has a lot more mobility than my grandma did in her 80s and 90s and my grandma lived on her own until she died (in a senior living community, but she did have her own apartment). She also has a lot more money than my grandma did.

My husband actually doesn't mind helping out my brother. If we had the ability to help, like if we moved somewhere with more room, or his mom moved out of her own volition, he would be fine with my brother living with us. He has helped my brother with other things in the past. The problem is that if he told his mom to GTFO, she would get really upset and feel like she was being "abandoned to die alone" and being forced out, and she would see it as a betrayal. I think it's ridiculous because she already stayed longer than she was supposed to. I guess it's just a difference in perspective. I see her as an external imposition on the household, but she sees herself as part of the household. She does pay 1/3rd of the rent and her name is on the lease (the apartment complex made us list all adults in the household on the lease) so legally, it is just as much her apartment as it is ours.

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Many years ago, while I was still married to my second husband, I found myself in a situation that has slight similarities. I had agreed to have his mother live with us; she had been diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic. For a variety of reasons, though, she had to discontinue some of the anti-psychotic meds she was taking, and her condition seriously deteriorated, which caused me to quit my job because she was constantly leaving stove burners on, etc., and I was afraid she would burn the house down if I wasn't there 24/7. It became apparent to me that she needed to be in some kind of assisted living facility for people with similar conditions, but my husband initially refused to even consider the idea. After a few months of dealing with this, I decided to take action. I went for an extended visit with my family, and left my husband alone to deal with his mother for roughly a month. Sure enough, after a month of having to take care of her and deal with all the ongoing issues, the first thing he said when I got back home was that she needed to go into a facility. He spent a couple of weeks looking for one and got her settled into it, and everybody was much happier, including her.

It doesn't sound as if a similar tactic to leave home for a while is an option for you, but what if you simply refuse to clean up after your MIL and her bird for a month? That is, announce to your husband that your MIL's living with you is well past the one-year limit you agreed to, and if he wants her in your home, it's 100% his responsibility to deal with her and the chaos she creates. Failing that, you need to start asking yourself some hard questions: At what point, if any, are you willing to give your husband an ultimatum that either his mother leaves, or you leave? If it means the end of your marriage otherwise, are you willing to accept the current situation indefinitely? To what extent does it bother you that your husband seemingly places more importance on what his mother wants than on what you want?

If I stopped cleaning they wouldn't care. She actually prefers for things to be dirty (her room looks like an episode of Hoarders), and my husband never learned what "clean" is so he doesn't even notice if something is dirty or clean. They think they're living under some kind of gestapo because I enforce basic cleanliness. I'm not talking about having everything magazine perfect, I mean literally like "if you spill crumbs on the counter clean them up," or "eat the food in the fridge before it expires." That's a big part of why she resents me and she acts like I'm some sort of abuser. Like as I said, previously she left her books and papers covering the entire dining table for weeks so nobody else could use it. I moved the stuff to a different table and left a note asking her to please not do that again and she threw a shit fit. Ever since then she won't keep ANY items in the common areas, like she won't even keep her shampoo in the shower or her toothbrush by the sink "so that I don't get mad." She acts like I'm some sort of tyrant.

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I apologize in advance if my comments about your situation and your husband sound harsh. I'm not advocating for you to leave your husband. But I am advocating for you to sit down with your husband and have a very serious discussion about what's going on in your life, and possible options and solutions. If he's unwilling to help find a solution that works for both of you, then you need to focus on doing whatever is necessary for you to be happy. Very bluntly, nobody should have to live the way you are currently living. You deserve much better than that.

I've already had many serious discussions about it with no resolution. I am not allowed to discuss it directly with her.

Bastet · January 4, 2019

18 minutes ago, BuyMoreAndSave said:

I am not allowed to discuss it directly with her.

You're his wife, not his child; he shouldn't be telling you what you are and are not allowed to do in your own home. Asking you not to start an emotional conversation when she was recovering was one thing, but forbidding it in perpetuity is quite another. I'm sorry he's not properly respecting you, on general principle, and because it has put you in a really bad situation - as was said above, no one should have to live this way.

21 minutes ago, BuyMoreAndSave said:

If I stopped cleaning they wouldn't care. She actually prefers for things to be dirty (her room looks like an episode of Hoarders), and my husband never learned what "clean" is so he doesn't even notice if something is dirty or clean. They think they're living under some kind of gestapo because I enforce basic cleanliness.

That happened to me when I let a friend move in with me when we were both first starting out after college. She didn't give a shit if things were messy or even dirty (judging by her bedroom and bathroom, that was her natural state), so if I stopped cleaning the common areas, it wasn't as if she finally jumped in to clean them; it just meant they were dirty and I was even more pissed off than when I was doing all the cleaning. (I lasted a year and a half because she had cats I loved like my own and hated to lose, but then that was it, I asked her to leave, and I have thankfully never co-habitated since; I am someone who needs to live alone.) So I empathize with you there -- if the other person(s) thinks it's just fine the way it is they are likely to regard your request to keep things reasonably tidy as being, instead, an unreasonable demand for perfection. Their perspective is skewed, so you're left in a position where you either just do all the cleaning yourself, engage in constant battle over it, or move out/kick them out, because they're not going to budge.

tinkerbell · January 4, 2019

55 minutes ago, BuyMoreAndSave said:

Having a difficult family is not a reason to take medication. And if you're talking about my MIL, even if she agreed to do therapy or go on medication, I don't think there is any medication approved to treat hoarding disorder

hoarding is considered to be a form of obsessive-compulsive disorder, and Paxil is one of the meds that does help.

BuyMoreAndSave · January 4, 2019

10 minutes ago, Bastet said:

You're his wife, not his child; he shouldn't be telling you what you are and are not allowed to do in your own home. Asking you not to start an emotional conversation when she was recovering was one thing, but forbidding it in perpetuity is quite another. I'm sorry he's not properly respecting you, on general principle, and because it has put you in a really bad situation - as was said above, no one should have to live this way.

He also tells her not to directly argue with me. He thinks that if we argue it will get more ugly than if he mediates. Also technically one time after we had an argument her blood pressure raised by like 20 points the next day and she had breathing problems. That was a while ago but it could still happen today.

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That happened to me when I let a friend move in with me when we were both first starting out after college. She didn't give a shit if things were messy or even dirty (judging by her bedroom and bathroom, that was her natural state), so if I stopped cleaning the common areas, it wasn't as if she finally jumped in to clean them; it just meant they were dirty and I was even more pissed off than when I was doing all the cleaning. (I lasted a year and a half because she had cats I loved like my own and hated to lose, but then that was it, I asked her to leave, and I have thankfully never co-habitated since; I am someone who needs to live alone.) So I empathize with you there -- if the other person(s) thinks it's just fine the way it is they are likely to regard your request to keep things reasonably tidy as being, instead, an unreasonable demand for perfection. Their perspective is skewed, so you're left in a position where you either just do all the cleaning yourself, engage in constant battle over it, or move out/kick them out, because they're not going to budge.

The thing is they do benefit from being in a clean environment, they just don't realize it enough to maintain it themselves. Nobody can have good mental health living in a squalor or hoarder situation or even visiting it. She thinks that she wants to live in a messy environment because I think it's her way of exerting control over a situation, but when she was living in that environment it caused her stress. She was constantly losing important things and oftentimes my husband would then have to spend hours helping her look for them, she had health problems from the dust and mold (I'm still convinced the serious health problems she developed were worsened by the hoarder conditions because they lowered her immunity and sapped her energy), and she wasted a lot of time moving stuff around and trying to deal with it when she could have been doing other things. Her room is messy but it's not as messy as the house was since there is a limit to what she can bring in there (she can't drive and can't carry more than a couple of pounds at once) and the rest of the apartment is very spartan. My husband also had a lot of completely unnecessary stress and wasted time dealing with the house cleanup. My husband has gotten better about keeping things clean than he used to be but that was only due to my influence and if I wasn't around, I don't think he would keep it up himself because it's not his default state and he has a lot of other things to do in a day. His car is always really gross and even if one of us cleans it, he messes it up again within a few weeks.

BuyMoreAndSave · January 4, 2019

14 minutes ago, tinkerbell said:

hoarding is considered to be a form of obsessive-compulsive disorder, and Paxil is one of the meds that does help.

It was once considered to be a form of OCD but now it is considered to be its own thing. https://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/mental-health/problems-disorders/hoarding

I don't think this is the place for the SSRIs are ineffective and usually have debilitating and life-shortening side effects discussion, but I will just leave this here (BTW both my dad and brother are on SSRIs and my dad is still considered disabled due to depression as well as multiple other disabilities he acquired as a result of the medication he takes, and my brother is just as depressed as he ever was, so anecdotally I totally agree with the conclusions of this article): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4172306/ Also it's worth noting when my MIL was in the hospital on a ventilator, the doctors gave her massive doses of Xanax. Because she had reduced kidney function, it essentially put her into a semiconscious state. Both she and my husband demanded multiple times for them to stop and they said they would stop and then still kept giving her Xanax. I don't know if they were trying to pull a Dr. Anna Pou (research it) or something, but it doesn't seem like it could possibly be attributed to good intentions. My MIL most likely has even less trust in the psychiatric industrial complex than I do.

Edited January 4, 2019 by BuyMoreAndSave

BookWoman56 · January 5, 2019

FWIW, my oldest sister was on a ventilator for a few weeks last year prior to her death from lung cancer. She was given some sort of anti-anxiety meds because when she regained consciousness and realized she was on a ventilator, she freaked the fuck out and was trying to remove the tube herself. From what the ICU nurses said, that's a fairly common reaction. After the initial dose of the anti-anxiety meds, they reduced the dosage but kept her on enough so that she was not agitated by the ventilator until they weaned her off it. At that point, our concern was simply to keep her as comfortable as possible, and so she was transferred to a hospice setting where the entire focus was not trying to prolong her life (because there was no damn point), but to keep her out of pain as much as possible.

With your MIL, I have no idea if she would derive any benefit from therapy and/or meds; things that work perfectly well for one person don't work at all or cause harm in someone else. For example, most people get pain relief if given morphine, but it does not do a damn thing for me and so I have to have something else, while my mother is allergic to it. In the case of your MIL, it's a moot point, because from what you've said, she doesn't think she has a problem as far as the tendency toward hoarding, clutter in general, and lack of cleaning. If I learned anything from the experience I had with my second husband, who had severe substance abuse issues, it was that you can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped.

Assuming your husband knows that you are extremely unhappy with the current situation, is there anything constructive he would agree to? For example, if he doesn't want to tell her to GTFO, is he comfortable at least setting up a timeline for her to leave? Would he agree to talk to her, or for both of you to talk with her, to express that since she has recovered from her illness so much faster than expected, it's time to plan her next steps to include figuring out where to live? If she still owns her house and has the money to do so, the logical thing would be to hire someone to get it in livable condition, getting rid of any mold and so forth as needed in addition to what your husband has already done. Sure, she may very well resume the hoarding behavior, but it should not be your responsibility to prevent her from making bad choices. Alternatively, if your husband insists she needs to continue living with you indefinitely, then maybe you can find a house with a mother-in-law suite, to give her designated space for her crap, and for you and your husband to have your own space with a little more of a buffer zone than possible in your apartment. You mentioned that it's difficult to find apartments/houses that will accept pets, but is it in any way feasible for you and your husband to buy a house, with financial assistance from his mother? Maybe she could sell her house and use the proceeds to buy another house or as a significant down payment that would enable you and your husband to find some place large enough for the two of you, her, and your brother if he needs a place. Obviously, that may not be feasible or desirable for you, but I would be concerned for your own welfare if the current situation continues. You mentioned that your MIL very likely became ill in part because of the stress of her living conditions. That possibility applies to you as well; living in a very stressful situation is bad for anyone's health. So if you're unable to get the resolution you want on the living situation, at least keep in mind that you need to do things that make you feel good. That may mean doing some activity outside your home on a regular basis, but you need to take extra care of yourself given the stress of the overall situation.

BuyMoreAndSave · January 5, 2019

2 hours ago, BookWoman56 said:

FWIW, my oldest sister was on a ventilator for a few weeks last year prior to her death from lung cancer. She was given some sort of anti-anxiety meds because when she regained consciousness and realized she was on a ventilator, she freaked the fuck out and was trying to remove the tube herself. From what the ICU nurses said, that's a fairly common reaction. After the initial dose of the anti-anxiety meds, they reduced the dosage but kept her on enough so that she was not agitated by the ventilator until they weaned her off it. At that point, our concern was simply to keep her as comfortable as possible, and so she was transferred to a hospice setting where the entire focus was not trying to prolong her life (because there was no damn point), but to keep her out of pain as much as possible.

I am sorry for your loss. She didn't try to remove it. They just decided that Xanax was needed because the ventilator is uncomfortable. She and my husband also thought that there was an ulterior motive since he told them multiple times to stop, and they aren't really conspiracy types of people. But when you hear about some of the stuff that is done in the name of medicine (see: Dirty Money on Netflix Episode 3, Playing God episode of Radiolab) it really makes you think. But the point is after that I don't think she has a good view of medication and I can't blame her honestly. Her goal has been to get off all medications (blood pressure etc.) and she is now off all of them.

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With your MIL, I have no idea if she would derive any benefit from therapy and/or meds; things that work perfectly well for one person don't work at all or cause harm in someone else. For example, most people get pain relief if given morphine, but it does not do a damn thing for me and so I have to have something else, while my mother is allergic to it. In the case of your MIL, it's a moot point, because from what you've said, she doesn't think she has a problem as far as the tendency toward hoarding, clutter in general, and lack of cleaning. If I learned anything from the experience I had with my second husband, who had severe substance abuse issues, it was that you can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped.

And yet it was suggested...as if I have never heard any of these things before...not trying to be mean but I'm just tired of "therapy and meds" being trotted out as an all-purpose solution regardless of the problem (not that I even posted asking for advice, considering I can't do much to change the situation, I just wanted to write about it somewhere and I thought it would be entertaining to others in a soap opera way).

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Assuming your husband knows that you are extremely unhappy with the current situation, is there anything constructive he would agree to? For example, if he doesn't want to tell her to GTFO, is he comfortable at least setting up a timeline for her to leave? Would he agree to talk to her, or for both of you to talk with her, to express that since she has recovered from her illness so much faster than expected, it's time to plan her next steps to include figuring out where to live? If she still owns her house and has the money to do so, the logical thing would be to hire someone to get it in livable condition, getting rid of any mold and so forth as needed in addition to what your husband has already done. Sure, she may very well resume the hoarding behavior, but it should not be your responsibility to prevent her from making bad choices. Alternatively, if your husband insists she needs to continue living with you indefinitely, then maybe you can find a house with a mother-in-law suite, to give her designated space for her crap, and for you and your husband to have your own space with a little more of a buffer zone than possible in your apartment. You mentioned that it's difficult to find apartments/houses that will accept pets, but is it in any way feasible for you and your husband to buy a house, with financial assistance from his mother? Maybe she could sell her house and use the proceeds to buy another house or as a significant down payment that would enable you and your husband to find some place large enough for the two of you, her, and your brother if he needs a place. Obviously, that may not be feasible or desirable for you, but I would be concerned for your own welfare if the current situation continues. You mentioned that your MIL very likely became ill in part because of the stress of her living conditions. That possibility applies to you as well; living in a very stressful situation is bad for anyone's health. So if you're unable to get the resolution you want on the living situation, at least keep in mind that you need to do things that make you feel good. That may mean doing some activity outside your home on a regular basis, but you need to take extra care of yourself given the stress of the overall situation.

Renovating the house was already a possibility. The problem is it may take a lot of money to renovate it and more importantly, time, and neither of us know much about home repairs and we both have a lot going on right now. However once it is renovated the only recurring costs would be property tax and utilities. It's also in an area where property values have gone way up and are expecting to continue going way up ("gentrifying" neighborhood within easy commuting distance of NYC, and 150 feet above sea level). So it already was a possibility to renovate the house and live there, and probably the best option for securing the future, but a) she may think she has carte blanche to hoard because it's "her" house if we move in there, even if we put our own money into the renovations, and b) it could take a long time, maybe even a year or more, to renovate it with everything else going on. We actually could afford to buy a house right now with our money alone but we both have mixed feelings about home ownership and mortgages. I guess coming of age in the time of the Great Recession, rising sea levels, and abnormally strong hurricanes will do that to you.

Edited January 5, 2019 by BuyMoreAndSave

DeLurker · January 5, 2019

8 hours ago, BuyMoreAndSave said:

(not that I even posted asking for advice, considering I can't do much to change the situation, I just wanted to write about it somewhere and I thought it would be entertaining to others in a soap opera way).

Often posters, myself included, just need to do a brain dump and one of the beneficial outcomes for me is confirmation I'm not crazy and often, a fresh and/or impartial take on the matter.

Apologies for misinterpreting the post and offering input that was retread.

DeLurker · January 5, 2019

JFC - just got a group email from my cousin offering an apology & explanation of why she hasn’t been returning calls & personally updating people while her husband was in ICU and after his death. He went in the hospital in the beginning of December and died right before Christmas.

Clearly some family members let it be known how hurt they were by her being too caught up to keep them informed when her husband of 40+ years was literally at death’s door.

I’ve put off replying because I haven’t been able to say fuck them and they should be ashamed of themselves without profanity.

KnoxForPres · January 5, 2019

Reading all of this is a lot. And I wish I had the wisdom to know what to say. But I arrive here today for a different reason and just need anonymity to get it out.

My sister had a large ovarian cyst that required removal and a recommended total hysterectomy. The procedure was yesterday and during the surgery the doctor discovered ovarian cancer of the right ovary . She is 44 and has 2 children 12 and 14- and thankfully a wonderful husband. The hope is they got it all with removal of the malignant ovary but they took multiple specimens which in two weeks (!) we will know more.

This is so unexpected. We all thought this would be routine and I’m desperately trying to repeat “She Will be fine” in my head countered by driving around and having moments of terror.

I don’t really need responses as much I need to get out I’m scared and very hopeful. The general vibe is “positivity! Prayers!” Which I agree with but this just knocked the wind out of me and I am scared.

Thanks

Sun-Bun · January 5, 2019

Hang in there, @KnoxForPres; that’s so scary and tragic when sometimes cancer rears its ugly head so suddenly. I wish I could tell you it’ll be okay; you just have to stay strong and somehow stay positive, no matter the outcome....a dear longtime friend of mine just got diagnosed with Stage 2 colon cancer and I’m just as hopeful yet frightened for him, so I’m there with you right now. All you can do is to offer comfort and support in the meantime; sorry you and your family are dealing with this though...healing thoughts here for your sister.

As for you, @BuyMoreAndSave, whew!! What a doozy...my heart goes out to you enduring such a stressful situation like that one. Between your dad/bro and your monster-in-law with the bird from Hell, it’s a wonder you’re staying as sane as you are still, so that’s impressive in and of itself.

So how’s your marriage holding up as you endure all this mess, if you don’t mind me asking? Because it sounds like your husband is being completely insensitive to your feelings and comfort levels. This is NOT what you agreed to with him originally, and based upon your own explanations here, he seems a bit oblivious to just how much all this is affecting your own health and mental well-being. Because he’s the one who brought all this extra stress upon you both; would you be strong enough to force an ultimatum on him(“it’s either she goes or I go”)? Would you be willing/able to live on your own for a while if you had to??

Because it sounds to me like nothing is going to change unless YOU make the change. And life’s indeed too short to waste it living with such stress and misery...I wish you the best though and hope you find a solution that somehow works for you all in the meantime...

KnoxForPres · January 5, 2019

1 hour ago, Sun-Bun said:

Hang in there, @KnoxForPres; that’s so scary and tragic when sometimes cancer rears its ugly head so suddenly. I wish I could tell you it’ll be okay; you just have to stay strong and somehow stay positive, no matter the outcome....a dear longtime friend of mine just got diagnosed with Stage 2 colon cancer and I’m just as hopeful yet frightened for him, so I’m there with you right now. All you can do is to offer comfort and support in the meantime; sorry you and your family are dealing with this though...healing thoughts here for your sister.

As for you, @BuyMoreAndSave, whew!! What a doozy...my heart goes out to you enduring such a stressful situation like that one. Between your dad/bro and your monster-in-law with the bird from Hell, it’s a wonder you’re staying as sane as you are still, so that’s impressive in and of itself.

So how’s your marriage holding up as you endure all this mess, if you don’t mind me asking? Because it sounds like your husband is being completely insensitive to your feelings and comfort levels. This is NOT what you agreed to with him originally, and based upon your own explanations here, he seems a bit oblivious to just how much all this is affecting your own health and mental well-being. Because he’s the one who brought all this extra stress upon you both; would you be strong enough to force an ultimatum on him(“it’s either she goes or I go”)? Would you be willing/able to live on your own for a while if you had to??

Because it sounds to me like nothing is going to change unless YOU make the change. And life’s indeed too short to waste it living with such stress and misery...I wish you the best though and hope you find a solution that somehow works for you all in the meantime...

Thank you very much. She’s the kindest person in the world who gave my parents no grief and me, well, I was the wild child.

I see myself in @SuzyRhapsody daughter. Oh Suzy, I was given every path to have an amazing life and made it hard, so hard. But I did it. I definitely had some low times in my 20s (though didn’t seem that way at the time- felt adventurous) but today at 39 I have my bachelors and have been gainfully employed at current job for 12 years with promotions, raises etc. I had a great backbone, as your daughter does which always whispered “you can be so much more”.

BookWoman56 · January 6, 2019

@KnoxForPres, I hope that your sister's surgery was successful and did in fact remove all the cancerous cells. This kind of out-of-nowhere cancer diagnosis sends shock waves throughout not just the patient but family and friends as well. While you're in limbo waiting for the biopsy results, maybe focus on activities you would like to do with your sister once she's recovered from the surgery, not in the sense of a bucket list but more just maybe things you've previously done together that you both enjoyed, and that you'd like to do again. The best advice I can offer is just to not obsess over "what ifs" (obviously easier said than done) because until the test results come back, your sister can't make definitive decisions with all the information she needs to make those decisions, and neither can the people around her, including you. If the news is good, then that's great and everybody can move forward. If the news is scary, then you will need some time to wrap your head around what's happening and how to process it, while simultaneously offering your sister all the support you can give. Again, you have my best wishes for your sister to make a full recovery.

Don't be surprised if you are distracted for the next couple of weeks, at a minimum, and forgetful. While all the stuff was going on with my sister last year, I went to the grocery store one day, came home, and parked my minivan in the garage, like normal. I opened the minivan's back door, got the groceries out, and then proceeded not to shut the back door (to the trunk area, like a hatchback door), but instead to lower the garage door so it hit the minivan's back door, and for a couple of minutes just totally blanked on the correct sequence of hitting the remote buttons to close the damn minivan door before lowering the garage door. Stress will do some funny things to you, so take care of yourself while you're waiting on the results for your sister.

DeLurker · January 6, 2019

@KnoxForPres - that is some shocker. So sorry for all of you. Do you live close? Because when my friend went through cancer treatment, she was most grateful for what her family and friends did to keep her kids’ lives as normal as possible during that time.

DeLurker · January 7, 2019

On 9/16/2018 at 9:27 AM, DeLurker said:

I get mostly secondhand news about one of my brother's relationships because he lives one house down from my Mom and goes over to vent to Mom about his girlfriend (she lives with him), but then gets all defensive of the gf if my Mom says anything the least bit critical. Basically, he needs to get stuff off his chest, unloads it on to Mom in a one-way manner and then we talk to work through it.

Basic issue is gf is a gollum - she wants the ring (thank you Seth Meyers). She's mid 50s, never been married and is desperate to be. My brother was married for 25+ years, was divorcing before they got married and finally made the break permanently a few years ago. He loves gf, but knows he is not "in" love with her. Things were good with gf for quite a while, but she's been pushing harder and harder for the marriage to the point where she'll pack her bags to leave on a weekly basis. Seriously, there was a point this summer where she had her bag packed for like 2 straight weeks.

My brother has told her to go if she wants to, told her he doesn't want to get married again and if marriage (as an objective) is something she wants, she needs to look elsewhere. But he does not just break up with her, so it is all up to her. I think he is such a dumbass because this is not the occasional fight about their future - this is happening 3-5x a week. Major fights.

Quoting myself because I knew I had posted about this, but wasn't sure how long ago it was.

Since I posted, the pattern for arguments and theatrics hasn't changed much, but she has asked him (brother #3 for those playing along) to get a life insurance policy naming her as the beneficiary (because her friends "counseled" her that this would be the responsible and respectful thing to do), asked to be added to the title to his house and asked that he sign a letter saying that in the event anything happened to him, his kids could not force her to move out of the house. None of these things happened, but they did get a dog from the shelter.

In mid-November he told Gollum they weren't working out for a variety of reasons and she needed to move out. She asked to stay until after Thanksgiving and he agreed. Then it was after Christmas. Then after New Year's.

Yesterday was my Mom's birthday so they were having a get together at her house (again, one door down) with another brother (#2) & his family and the next door neighbor. #3 and Gollum were at her house in the morning to say Happy Birthday and to have coffee with her, so they were expected back later when #2 got there. #3's kids show up in the afternoon and say their Dad is helping Gollum pack her things in her car to move. I can't believe the timing was coincidental.

He never shows up during the get together, but stops by last night and she has moved out. Although she accidentally left her cell there (she's attached to her cell always), her laptop, etc...In the time he was at Mom's, she had texted him at least 5x.

He sent me a text last night with the message "She's gone" - we really haven't spoken about their relationship. I sent him an email this morning saying basically do not keep in touch with her for a while. It will give her hope that there is a chance to reunite and if there is none, then it just gives her false hope even if that is not your intention. Tell her that you won't be responding to calls or texts for a while so there is a clean break.

We will see if this is the final chapter...

theredhead77 · January 7, 2019

4 minutes ago, DeLurker said:

We will see if this is the final chapter...

Hopefully.

As a general statement (not just related to your family, delurker) no one is getting any younger. If party A wants marriage while party B has no interest in marriage and there is no compromise with legal domestic partnership paperwork, party A is going to have to decide if this is the relationship for them. It's none of my business if people live together without marriage, get married but live apart, file domestic partnership (or the state equivalent) paperwork for the legal protections. You do you. But FFS, don't waste years of peoples time if there is an irreconcilable difference in where the relationship is going. I have friends in all of the above situations and I'm only annoyed at the one who gave the ring but really doesn't want to get married (for a variety of valid concerns on their part) but they own a house together and they've been together for nearly a decade.

KittyMom4 · January 7, 2019

2 hours ago, theredhead77 said:

But FFS, don't waste years of peoples time if there is an irreconcilable difference in where the relationship is going

Oh my gosh, yes to this so many times. It took me a number of years to realize the man I was with only saw me as a part-time girlfriend, not full-time partner in life.

tinkerbell · January 7, 2019

7 hours ago, theredhead77 said:

. But FFS, don't waste years of peoples time if there is an irreconcilable difference in where the relationship is going. I have friends in all of the above situations and I'm only annoyed at the one who gave the ring but really doesn't want to get married (for a variety of valid concerns on their part) but they own a house together and they've been together for nearly a decade.

Yes. I was in a relationship like that long ago - in my 20's. Dated someone for far too many years, beginning when I wasn't thinking about marriage because I was focusing on school and career. . Then at one point I decided I also wanted marriage and children. he said he didn't think he wanted to get married, but he would agree to marry me if it was the only way to keep me, or that he would "do the right thing" if I got pregnant. He even suggested that if I were to get pregnant "accidentally on purpose" he would have to marry me. It took a few months until I had the self esteem to end it. I broke up with him, and learned that a year later he married a woman who, according to his sister, "said she was pregnant, they got married, and then she lost the baby right the wedding." (the sister had reason to doubt that the pregnancy was real, and told me everyone who knew her thought she was faking.)

I never had regrets about breaking up with him, there's just no way I could start a life with someone who was with me because of an ultimatum or a pregnancy. A few years later, I found and married someone who wanted to get married as much as I did.

BuyMoreAndSave · January 8, 2019

On 1/5/2019 at 5:03 PM, Sun-Bun said:

As for you, @BuyMoreAndSave, whew!! What a doozy...my heart goes out to you enduring such a stressful situation like that one. Between your dad/bro and your monster-in-law with the bird from Hell, it’s a wonder you’re staying as sane as you are still, so that’s impressive in and of itself.

So how’s your marriage holding up as you endure all this mess, if you don’t mind me asking? Because it sounds like your husband is being completely insensitive to your feelings and comfort levels. This is NOT what you agreed to with him originally, and based upon your own explanations here, he seems a bit oblivious to just how much all this is affecting your own health and mental well-being. Because he’s the one who brought all this extra stress upon you both; would you be strong enough to force an ultimatum on him(“it’s either she goes or I go”)? Would you be willing/able to live on your own for a while if you had to??

Because it sounds to me like nothing is going to change unless YOU make the change. And life’s indeed too short to waste it living with such stress and misery...I wish you the best though and hope you find a solution that somehow works for you all in the meantime...

There have been good times and bad times with the situation with her living with us. As I said, I let a lot of things slide to keep the peace. She was a thorn in our relationship for long before she came to live with us. The majority of arguments we have had over the course of our relationship have had something to do with her, even when she lived 1000 miles away. One time she literally tried to get my husband to take time off work and fly all the way to Florida and back just to hand her an important document that SHE forgot in the house...and he was going to do it too...when I told her to do it herself and also to fuck off, then *I* was the bitch. Even if she moved out, if she does not change her behavior, it may not improve her constant trying to control everyone and throwing a fit if she doesn't get to. But at least if she moves out then I don't have to live with the stupid bird anymore or clean up her messes that she is oblivious to (today I went into the kitchen and the counters smelled like rotting fish...she cooked fish yesterday...when I told my husband he said that HE would clean the counters every day to make sure it didn't happen again...I was like "so you have to waste time cleaning up after her yet again?"...then today I went into the kitchen to find her, for the thousandth time after I specifically told her not to, preparing food right next to the dish rack with the clean dishes, even having some of her dirty cooking utensils touching a pot I just washed today!...and of course I'm not allowed to say anything.)

But even despite all the not so bad times, I look back on it and think...we have done so much for her...what the fuck has she ever done for me? My husband says he has to help her because she did things in his adult life like helping him pay off his student loans. But what has she ever done for me besides bring problems and stress to my life? Even during times when I was already going through a lot of stress, she put additional stress on top of that. She may see me as lazy and trash and all that, but all she has done is take and not give.

I didn't even want to plan my wedding because of the stress she brought to it (plus worrying about what my dysfunctional family might do), and it took us a very long time between getting engaged and getting married. After our wedding the primary emotion I felt was "thank God this shit is over with, I never have to do it again, and no fights broke out," which is not what a bride should be thinking of on their wedding day.

Her illness (which, as I said before, was 100% preventable had she not ignored health issues for several years) caused a relapse of my OCD and hypochondria which has still not entirely gone away. I was already not working at the time because I was training for a new career, but that derailed my progress by a couple of years and even to this day I'm only doing part-time contract work. On several occasions she has trash-talked me for not having a full-time job, saying I'm lazy and don't try (I have a STEM degree from one of the top colleges in the US, you don't get that by being lazy and not trying), and completely refuses to acknowledge her role in the matter. Not only the OCD part but also I think having my life directed so much by what other people (people who I don't even like!) want, and being told that I'm wrong for wanting anything different, has ruined my confidence even more than it already was ruined. It's like I don't even get to have the self-determination of an adult, so the rest of my life is in suspended animation. I'm not even allowed to potentially consider having a house of our own because if I bring it up, my husband says "I already have a house" (meaning the hoarder house which needs tons of repairs, and I don't even know which of them legally owns it).

I also feel like there's been a recurring thing which I think she introduced to him that if you make more money, you have more say in decisions. Even when I was working I didn't make very much (the economic crisis never really ended for most millennials). I inherited 25% of my grandma's estate as well in 2017 and I pay for 1/3rd of the rent plus food and personal expenses with that, but I don't think the money "counts" to them because I didn't earn it. My husband is ten years older than me and he works in tech so he makes a good amount of money. At the time when we first started dating he had been living in the hoarder house with his dad (who died shortly after -- his mom was living in Florida at the time and continued to do so until she retired) because he had just gotten his first job in tech after a long period of unemployment and career transition.

It was a huge battle to get him to first move out of the hoarder house and in with roommates and then to get our own place, and he would constantly make snide comments about how he couldn't save any money because I was forcing him to pay for our own apartment (which was not even true, once I added it up and found that rent was not taking up an exorbitant amount of his paycheck and he was wasting a lot of money on unnecessary things, and he refused to hear it). He wanted us to move back into the hoarder house, which had no heat or anything and was still full of his parents' abandoned crap, to fix it up and live there, so that he could save money, even though there's no way we could fix it up while living in there because the whole place would need to be gutted. He thought I was an ungrateful spoiled brat for refusing and would always make comments about how I "need everything to be perfect." The implied subtext was that I didn't get a say because I didn't make enough money. He only stopped constantly complaining about it once he got a job making much more money. Now he says he doesn't know what he was thinking at that time and that he was unreasonable to expect me or anyone to live in those conditions, but it caused a lot of stress for me at the time.

I will admit that a large reason why I let her and the bird live here was because I thought it would give me more leverage in future decisions, since I'm not likely to be making six figures anytime soon so I can't get leverage that way. And I don't really want my brother to live here and I hope he finds some other solution because then I will lose leverage.

She has even ruined the concept of pets for me for life. I literally don't even believe in pet ownership anymore because of her bird.

And I am not going to move out. It's my home. I spent a lot of time finding this apartment to meet HER needs (and got not a word of thanks for it). Most of the furniture was either bought by me or inherited from my family members. She intruded on my life and I am not going to let her push me out of my own home. That would be exactly what she wants.

Anyway I told my husband the above on Saturday and he cried and said that he regrets that we ever got together if this was the ultimate effect, because he thinks he was a net negative influence on my life and he didn't want to cause that. But at this point I don't think I have the ability to live independently. I used to be a very independent person. But now I'm literally afraid to even go outside alone. His solution seems to be trying to help me prepare my Android skills for job interviews so I can get a job and gain more confidence that way, as if that will fix everything.

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