S02.E21: Fire with Fire

[mac123x]

One more episode to kill off Freya.  I really want her character to die, and take the "actress" with her.  She's just awful.  her scene with Dahlia should have been really good, but it was like Claudia Black was acting against a crash-test dummy.

 

So who is the witch Dahlia loves the most, herself, right?

[slayer2]

One more episode to kill off Freya. I really want her character to die, and take the "actress" with her. She's just awful. her scene with Dahlia should have been really good, but it was like Claudia Black was acting against a crash-test dummy.

So who is the witch Dahlia loves the most, herself, right?

Can it be Bonnie so she can come in and wipe out the town? Give Rebekah, Elijah and Marcel a head start then just Sunnydale the place.

[FurryFury]

Trust me, you really don't. If Laurel gives you problems, Klaus will make you wish television was never invented. Yes, it's THAT bad. Imagine Malcolm times a trillion, unkillable and with ZERO accountability, so basically unkillable Malcolm times a trillion.

 

Haha, that's true. I only remember Klaus from the first 3 seasons of The Vampire Diaries until I've dropped it (I don't watch this show but follow the threads because I still like a few other characters), and he's really the worst. It's such a shame they've decided to center the show around him - it would have been so much better to use him as a villain, because this is what he is, the villain of his siblings' lives.

 

Malcolm (only x1000 worse) is a fitting analogy, I think. Only Arrow isn't quite as bad because it doesn't yet pander to his fans (does he have any?) the way Julie Plec does to her bad boys' shallow fangirls.

Edited May 5, 2015 by FurryFury

[ladyrott]

However, if I were a judge, I would award Hayley and Jackson custody because Klaus' behavior indicates that he's going to continue to rack up enemies who will team up with his 1000 years worth of enemies and thus continue to put Hope's life in danger.

 

 While I agree with this statement, my problem is that Klaus remains Hope's father so, whether he is living with the child or not, his enemies are still going to target her.  My personal feeling is that Klaus and his siblings have a much better shot at protecting Hope than Hayley and her woofs do....And I feel like the show kind of proved my point with this episode.  The Crescents TRIED to protect their little princess, but they failed miserably.  I give them points for trying, don't get me wrong, but if all these people are really concerned for what is safest for Hope, than I feel like Hayley needs to deal with the fact that Hope's father, and her remaining aunt and uncle (who love her and would lay down their lives for her) are her best bet for making it to adulthood.

 

Am I the only one who expected Mary to morph in Dalia and abscond with the baby?  When she told Hayley to let her hold Hope, I was sure she was going to drop the illusion and leave Hayley standing there with her mouth hanging open.  I was also waiting for Hope to save herself AND the woofs (maybe I watched too much Charmed back in the day).  I can honestly say that I did not see the return of that stupid ass curse of Marcel's.  When Mary pulled over and started to change, all I kept thinking was that Klaus is going to be REALLY pissed when he discovers his daughter is not in the immediate vicinity.  It also crossed my mind that, when Klaus does find that car, he may find a wolf pup sitting in a car seat and chewing on a seatbelt.  Klaus put a curse on the Crescent pack, correct?  Wouldn't that mean Hope gets hit with it too?!?!?!

 

I didn't really care that Klaus barbecued Gia.  The character did nothing for me and I did not buy that Elijah was suddenly in love with her.  Liked her?  Yeah.  Had a good time with her?  Sure.  But was devastated that she is dead?  Nope.  I was not in the least invested in their relationship.  If they wanted me to buy this, than they should have spent a lot more time on developing them as a couple, showing me that they were falling in love.  I did feel bad for Bex and Marcel.  I think Marcel does care deeply for her and, when she stuck the knife in herself so he wouldn't have to....Well, it was touching to me.  I think that actress has REALLY knocked it out of the park, though, so I hate to think we wont be seeing her again.  She has done a completely amazing job with imitating Claire Holt's Rebekah. It's actually easy to believe that she IS Rebekah in another body.  To me, that is some pretty amazing acting.  If I can't have Claire Holt, I will take Maisie Richardson-Sellers in a New York minute!

 

I was beyond happy to find out Klaus was not such an idiot that he actually believed Dahlia, but couldn't he have actually killed Cami?  I find the character tedious with her psychobabble and her "you won't hurt me" crap to the rabid serial killer who has absolutely no regard for human life.  It was like when the show "killed" Hayley at Hope's birth.  Don't tease me like that, show!  Also, I don't care about Davina becoming the head witch.  I like Davina but these however many covens are electing a...what....17 year old?....to be their supreme leader why exactly?  Because she stood up to Klaus?  Because she was a Harvest Girl?  I was glad to see one of the witches question why Davina should be leader and I didn't think Davina's answer was good enough for them to decide in a split second to make her the big boss.

Edited May 6, 2015 by ladyrott

[Crucial]

I'm trying to keep in mind they didn't actually show Evabekah dead dead, I'm thinking Marcel gave her blood to heal, he was only compelled to kill her if she left, there is no reason he couldn't have saved her life. But that does not change the visual story that was told in this one, and how terrible it was, or that I'd much rather have Gia than Cami/Freya.

Oh that brings me a little hope because I didn't even think of that. That would be great.  I'm beginning to think Cami is the equivalent of a cockroach, she will survive everything.  It's a shame about Gia because I would have loved to see more of her and Elijah.

 

I liked this episode mainly because I finally got to see Haley get hers.  Long time overdue for me.  Instead of killing two females, killing Jackson would have been much better and throw in Freya as well.  Freya's scenes with Dahlia were rough to watch because of how bad the actress who plays Freya is.

[monica1992]

You need to look up thread and read what the mod posted. You also need to understand that this is a message board not a fan board and people are entitled to think what they want with respect to characters. There is no compulsion here.

With all respect I am asking you why do you blame Klaus in NB Kol's death. And if we have been watching the same show I just didn't see it. And I am not a fan girl I just think sometimes, in certain circumstances cruelty gets things done. Again what's better to be feared or loved? In Klaus' case he needed to make his enemies fear him, crush them so théy wouldn't come after him. Edited May 6, 2015 by monica1992

[venusnv80]

I'm not really a Klaus fan and I really only tuned in because of the whole nu-Rebekah storyline, I was interested in seeing how she coped with being in this new body among OTHER thing..of course these writers can't stretch out of their box to deal with the new Rebekah. I think 

since Maisie got a pilot, she may be gone.

[bluebonnet]

 While I agree with this statement, my problem is that Klaus remains Hope's father so, whether he is living with the child or not, his enemies are still going to target her.  My personal feeling is that Klaus and his siblings have a much better shot at protecting Hope than Hayley and her woofs do....And I feel like the show kind of proved my point with this episode.  The Crescents TRIED to protect their little princess, but they failed miserably.  I give them points for trying, don't get me wrong, but if all these people are really concerned for what is safest for Hope, than I feel like Hayley needs to deal with the fact that Hope's father, and her remaining aunt and uncle (who love her and would lay down their lives for her) are her best bet for making it to adulthood.

I don't disagree necessarily.  I stated that the running was dumb seeing as they didn't have a witch in their pocket.  Davina's occasional assistance just was never going to be enough.  They need a pack witch, someone that could have helped cloak them.  But this plan was never going to work anyway because it was always going to come down to Klaus.  My concern here was more that I found it frustrating that Hayley has been judged using a different standard.  Sure, without resources Hayley's plan is never going to work and I think this is a very valid argument, one I even agree with.  It's the other argument, the "How dare Hayley do anything to upset the poor father regardless of the needs of the child" argument that sort of frightens and disturbs me.  

 

What these people need is a good co-parenting plan, and lots of communication.  That's not really dramatic.

Edited May 6, 2015 by bluebonnet

[monica1992]

Then don't you agree that Klaus had every reason to be mad last night's episode??? Elijah put his daughter's life in danger by letting Hayley run with Hope because Dahlia would have found them anyway???

Edited May 6, 2015 by monica1992

[AlliMo]

I wish they hadn't killed off Gia as I enjoyed the character and the actress, but I have to point out that Klaus wasn't the one who killed her. That honor goes to the vampire who turned her in the first place. That's part of the complexity of a show about monsters.

[bluebonnet]

If I recall correctly, Gia chose to become a vampire.  It didn't look like she consented to burning to a final true death.  

[BkWurm1]

Trust me, you really don't. If Laurel gives you problems, Klaus will make you wish television was never invented. Yes, it's THAT bad. Imagine Malcolm times a trillion, unkillable and with ZERO accountability, so basically unkillable Malcolm times a trillion.

 

Well now I feel better about staying away. :)

 

Just do me a favor and send some extra love out there in the universe for Dahlia.  I miss Claudia Black.   

[slayer2]

Well now I feel better about staying away. :)

Just do me a favor and send some extra love out there in the universe for Dahlia. I miss Claudia Black.

Don't worry, a lot of us are still wondering how they lured her to this show (talent of her co-stars notwithstanding).

[mac123x]

I was also waiting for Hope to save herself AND the woofs (maybe I watched too much Charmed back in the day).

 

That could still happen, though to be honest it'd feel really deus ex machina.

 

I can honestly say that I did not see the return of that stupid ass curse of Marcel's.  When Mary pulled over and started to change, all I kept thinking was that Klaus is going to be REALLY pissed when he discovers his daughter is not in the immediate vicinity.  It also crossed my mind that, when Klaus does find that car, he may find a wolf pup sitting in a car seat and chewing on a seatbelt.  Klaus put a curse on the Crescent pack, correct?  Wouldn't that mean Hope gets hit with it too?!?!?!

 

Hope hasn't triggered the werewolf curse by killing anyone yet, so she should be safe. 

 

I realize they probably just put the actor in her car seat for a couple of hours and left the camera running, then clipped out the best footage for her 15 seconds on screen, but one shot of her staring off into the distance just creeped the hell out of me.  Blank expression, dead eyes, ugh. 

[bluebonnet]

I actually had been wondering if it counted that Hayley technically died while giving birth to Hope.  Of course, it's not the baby's fault if something happens to the mother, especially if that something is a bunch of psycho witches. But for a sueprnatural world it would be almost too easy to decide that mother dying in childbirth is enough to spark the werewolf gene, if only so we could see a cute puppy on screen (while ignoring the part where it's the worst torture for a person to transition from human to wolf, of course).  

[Gwen-Stacys]

Klaus put a curse on the Crescent pack, correct?  Wouldn't that mean Hope gets hit with it too?!?!?!

.

 

Maybe her witch side saved her? Klaus said Dahlia had to finaggle the original curse to take Hayley's vampire side into account, so maybe that's what saved her?

 

I don't disagree necessarily.  I stated that the running was dumb seeing as they didn't have a witch in their pocket.  Davina's occasional assistance just was never going to be enough.  They need a pack witch, someone that could have helped cloak them.  But this plan was never going to work anyway because it was always going to come down to Klaus.  My concern here was more that I found it frustrating that Hayley has been judged using a different standard.  Sure, without resources Hayley's plan is never going to work and I think this is a very valid argument, one I even agree with.  It's the other argument, the "How dare Hayley do anything to upset the poor father regardless of the needs of the child" argument that sort of frightens and disturbs me.  

 

What these people need is a good co-parenting plan, and lots of communication.  That's not really dramatic.

I'm really really sorry if that's how I came off to you, I wasn't trying to say that (entirely). As Hope's mother, I agree Hayley has just as much say in Hope's life as Klaus does (it should be equal), and I think I forgot to add the bits from my previous comments from the previous episodes about my main issue with her running away is that she put Hope in even more danger than she was before. Saying that Hope "isn't a Mikaelson" does nothing to erase the fact that she is, in fact, a Mikaelson. Her pack of Woofs (as Miss. Ladyrotts so eloquently dubbed them) suck...and they weren't going to stay with them past them leaving Nola anyway. Hope would've been left under the protection of Jackson, Hayley, and maybe Jackson's mom (or whoever the heck that woman is). Hope's enemies wouldn't just be vampires or other wolves...they'd probably be witches as well, and while Davina may be cordial to Hayley, she only ever helped her because she opposed Klaus and other people asked her. Hayley has never been shown as one to make and maintain alliances. Even on TVD she was a lone wolf.

As for which parent is better? Hayley has exhibited reckless behavior (turning the hybrids in to Klaus; leaving the house even after Klaus told her it wasn't safe in episode 1 or two of The Originals; aligning with Katherine Pierce in off screensville then having to seek refuge with Klaus, of all people; running off with a magical baby with magical enemies and leaving yourself virtually unprotected and up paddle creak if she ever managed to catch up to you). And while Klaus maybe seem reckless, he's mostly weighed the consequences of his actions and said eff it.

His actions in this episode couldn't even be defined as messy or more despicable than any of his previous actions. He could've easily killed Hayley and her wolves but he didn't, instead he put a reversible spell on them that can be lifted whenever. Had he not done that, Dahlia already said she would not hesitate to kill Hayley to take her out of the picture. Looking at it that way, Klaus saved her life and her pack. Same with Elijah and Rebekah; Dahlia was ready to kill all of them and Klaus (while maintaining his cover) put them out of commission so that she had no reason to hurt them. So Klaus killed Gia. This is hardly the first time he's killed either of his sibling's lovers. Nothing he did this episode tops him killing Tyler's mom (who really killed for no rhyme or reason other than to get back at Tyler) or a pack of hybrids on Hayley's word, etc. Or even him turning Aunt Jenna for the sole purpose of sacrificing her. Was Gia collateral damage? Yes. That sucks. But Klaus' already said he'd do anything to save his daughter and so did his siblings.

 

[PinkRibbons]

I've never had a particular bias for or against Cami -- she's just sort of there, most of the time, but she was the only one who said what I think should have been emphasized more throughout this episode -- there's a huge difference between Elijah or Rebekah being daggered and Klaus being daggered right now. Put down Elijah and all he loses is time, which yeah, sucks, but he's immortal. He'll readjust, he'll be pissed, but he won't lose much. But putting down Klaus for an indeterminate amount of time while he has an infant child is far crueler. That's robbing him of seeing his daughter grow up. So frankly the elements of revenge he carried out against his siblings (killing Gia, setting up Marcel and Rebekah) seem a touch less hypocritical than they normally would be. Not to mention that, big picture considered, his daggering was set off by something that was fairly innocuous, on the grand scale of horrific things Klaus does. So he wouldn't share his plans unless Freya is left out of them? (Freya, who can tap into and read someone's secrets?) So he killed what was essentially a werewolf snitch that turned on him? That's the kind of thing he'd do every other week. If he'd killed Gia or Marcel, maybe, I could understand his siblings losing it and daggering him, devil take the consequences. But the daggering of Klaus by his siblings over Aiden, and during an extremely dangeous point reeked of, "oh hey, we finally can do to Klaus what he's done to us all these times, what's the first excuse we can come up with?"

[bluebonnet]

Not quite.  Klaus isn't going to see his child grow up if he doesn't protect her.  Killing off people who have been charged with her protection is counterproductive to the action of safely raising up Hope.  Klaus has also not exactly exhibited a true investment in Hope.  We 'know' he loves her because he says he does, but his actions suggest otherwise.  I'm not saying he needs to awkwardly carry her around in order for us to see that he loves her.  I'm saying that he needs to act as though Hope is merely a tool for Klaus, whether she's an excuse he uses to commit more cruelties or a tool he uses to acquire greater power.  In the past few weeks, they've watched Klaus turn their mother into a vampire (though, tbf, that was totally justified), murder his biological father, murder his other father, say he will murder Hayley's husband, admit to murdering one of Hope's bodyguards, refused to work with the one powerful witch they have and then refuse to share an alternative plan.  I mean, of course we think Klaus cares for Hope because he tells us and he's supposed to because he's her father.  But ffs, this dude had a father who spent a thousand years hunting him.  What does Klaus now of parental love?  

 

Added all up, I think they had very logical reasons for removing Klaus from the equation because the information they had suggested that his trustworthiness when it came to the safety and welfare of Hope was too questionable to chance.  It turns out that the plot demanded they be wrong as Klaus apparently had some mysterious superior plan that happened to work out perfectly when he was unexpectedly daggered and I suppose will eventually result in Klaus sacrificing his very life because he loves his property, I mean his daughter so much.  But without this plot contrivance, there was good reason for Klaus to be daggered.  The safety and welfare of a child outweighs the emo sadness of a parent.  

[PinkRibbons]

I have to disagree on us not being shown that Klaus loves Hope. Perhaps it's simply Joseph Morgan with those babies, but I cannot think of a single scene with the two characters together (including the closing scene of this episode when he finds her in the car) that doesn't show love just radiating off Klaus. I've hypothesized before that the writers have been deliberately stopping scenes with the two of them because JM's so magical during them. IMO, compared to any other actor on the show, not one person can hold a candle to how much love Klaus displays towards his daughter. My theory is TPTB don't in fact want to show how loving a father Klaus is because he makes Hayley, Elijah, Jackson, etc look less adoring in contrast, and they're supposed to be the ones who think so hard about her that they'd sacrifice anything. But the fact is, Klaus loves that baby and you can see it in every glance he gives her, and he is the one who is truly willing to sacrifice everything, including his loved ones.

[monica1992]

Not quite. Klaus isn't going to see his child grow up if he doesn't protect her. Killing off people who have been charged with her protection is counterproductive to the action of safely raising up Hope. Klaus has also not exactly exhibited a true investment in Hope. We 'know' he loves her because he says he does, but his actions suggest otherwise. I'm not saying he needs to awkwardly carry her around in order for us to see that he loves her. I'm saying that he needs to act as though Hope is merely a tool for Klaus, whether she's an excuse he uses to commit more cruelties or a tool he uses to acquire greater power. In the past few weeks, they've watched Klaus turn their mother into a vampire (though, tbf, that was totally justified), murder his biological father, murder his other father, say he will murder Hayley's husband, admit to murdering one of Hope's bodyguards, refused to work with the one powerful witch they have and then refuse to share an alternative plan. I mean, of course we think Klaus cares for Hope because he tells us and he's supposed to because he's her father. But ffs, this dude had a father who spent a thousand years hunting him. What does Klaus now of parental love?

Added all up, I think they had very logical reasons for removing Klaus from the equation because the information they had suggested that his trustworthiness when it came to the safety and welfare of Hope was too questionable to chance. It turns out that the plot demanded they be wrong as Klaus apparently had some mysterious superior plan that happened to work out perfectly when he was unexpectedly daggered and I suppose will eventually result in Klaus sacrificing his very life because he loves his property, I mean his daughter so much. But without this plot contrivance, there was good reason for Klaus to be daggered. The safety and welfare of a child outweighs the emo sadness of a parent.

Elijah slaughtered the whole diner for God's sake. Was Klaus supposed to dagger him too, because he was unstable to be around Hope. And when Eva Sinclair was in charge of Rebekah's body was he supposed to destroy the body?? " Find her but don't kill her the non-psychopathic parts are still my sister". He knew his siblings cared about Hope Or do u think Freya who helped Finn to find Hope in a first place , safer to trust. I understand that Klaus might be a terrible Terrible person, but the fact that he agreed to send her away when the baby's life was in danger proves that he doesn't see her as property. Plus he never tried to kill the mother , even in last night's episode proves how much he cares for that child. Edited May 6, 2015 by monica1992

[Gwen-Stacys]

Not quite.  Klaus isn't going to see his child grow up if he doesn't protect her.  Killing off people who have been charged with her protection is counterproductive to the action of safely raising up Hope.  Klaus has also not exactly exhibited a true investment in Hope.  We 'know' he loves her because he says he does, but his actions suggest otherwise.  I'm not saying he needs to awkwardly carry her around in order for us to see that he loves her.  I'm saying that he needs to act as though Hope is merely a tool for Klaus, whether she's an excuse he uses to commit more cruelties or a tool he uses to acquire greater power.  In the past few weeks, they've watched Klaus turn their mother into a vampire (though, tbf, that was totally justified), murder his biological father, murder his other father, say he will murder Hayley's husband, admit to murdering one of Hope's bodyguards, refused to work with the one powerful witch they have and then refuse to share an alternative plan.  I mean, of course we think Klaus cares for Hope because he tells us and he's supposed to because he's her father.  But ffs, this dude had a father who spent a thousand years hunting him.  What does Klaus now of parental love?  

 

Added all up, I think they had very logical reasons for removing Klaus from the equation because the information they had suggested that his trustworthiness when it came to the safety and welfare of Hope was too questionable to chance.  It turns out that the plot demanded they be wrong as Klaus apparently had some mysterious superior plan that happened to work out perfectly when he was unexpectedly daggered and I suppose will eventually result in Klaus sacrificing his very life because he loves his property, I mean his daughter so much.  But without this plot contrivance, there was good reason for Klaus to be daggered.  The safety and welfare of a child outweighs the emo sadness of a parent.  

 

I think we're all going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I'm with the others in that you can see how much Klaus loves his daughter every time he looks at her; his entire face lights up more so than anyone else's ( and that might just be JM the actor vs PT, etc ). He sent her away at the end of last season because he knew it wasn't safe for her; he's said himself that he worries about whether or not he'll do good by her because of his relationship with Michael; was genuinly hurt when Elijah though he'd use his daughter's blood to create a hybrid army for himself (and even encouraged Hayley to go and alternative route in order to create a an army of hybrids he knows he could never control on his own). So not only have they given vocal evidence of his love for Hope , but we were also shown through both actions and just plain old good face acting. Again, YMMV

 

But the final showing of how much he loves his daughter (and even a smidgen of character growth), he let her mother live. OG Klaus would've killed everyone in a fit of rage. And if not Hayley....he'd have killed Jackson and then still put the cure on her. This time he only did one (and arguably protected Hayley from Dahlia killing her herself). Growth! (yes a smidgen of sarcasm on the growth bit, but still...it's progress)

[bluebonnet]

I think it's more that we can see how much the actor adores the baby.  JM has chemistry with everyone.  It's something he seems to be completely unable to help.  Cuddling a baby isn't an indication of love.  Saying you love a baby is also not an true measurement of love.  Klaus is still acting like the same exact individual he was before Hope came into the picture.  He has to show me that he can be rehabilitated.  Perhaps stop murdering people just because he's thirsty.  Maybe create and nurture a supportive and loving network instead of, again, torturing and murdering these people.  Maybe not putting a curse on the mother of his child.  Klaus can claim all he wants that he did it to save everyone, but the point will still stand that he didn't once consider trying to find another way.  He decided on his own that it was his way or no way.  This still looks like the same Klaus who who has power orgasms and such.

 

Though, I'm not completely in disagreement.  I think there was a moment when Klaus was listening to Hayley's phone call where he looked like he might have agreed, as though he might be willing to make some serious sacrifices in service to his child.  I think this is still possible, but this is future Klaus, not yet present Klaus.  

[Gwen-Stacys]

I think it's more that we can see how much the actor adores the baby.  JM has chemistry with everyone.  It's something he seems to be completely unable to help.  Cuddling a baby isn't an indication of love.  Saying you love a baby is also not an true measurement of love.  Klaus is still acting like the same exact individual he was before Hope came into the picture.  He has to show me that he can be rehabilitated.  Perhaps stop murdering people just because he's thirsty.  Maybe create and nurture a supportive and loving network instead of, again, torturing and murdering these people.  Maybe not putting a curse on the mother of his child.  Klaus can claim all he wants that he did it to save everyone, but the point will still stand that he didn't once consider trying to find another way.  He decided on his own that it was his way or no way.  This still looks like the same Klaus who who has power orgasms and such.

 

Though, I'm not completely in disagreement.  I think there was a moment when Klaus was listening to Hayley's phone call where he looked like he might have agreed, as though he might be willing to make some serious sacrifices in service to his child.  I think this is still possible, but this is future Klaus, not yet present Klaus.  

We were never arguing about whether or not Klaus was a horrible person (lets be honest, every one of them are capable of being horrible. Even Jackson whose pack slaughtered Diego's entire human family, including his younger sister), but whether or not he's shown his love for his child. There are plenty of examples of him showing his love *see my previous comment* and even if JM has chemistry with everyone, TPTB chose to show those shots of his open adoration of the child. Klaus does love Hope (even shows it canonically), but Klaus is Klaus. And you cannot teach an old dog new tricks...

[Morrigan2575]

Klaus is an ass, a megalomaniac and prone to massive temper tantrums. Plus he's distrutful, arrogant and demanding of his family's love/attention/loyalty/devotion.

All that being said there's nothing in the show to indicate Klaus is indifferent to or does not love Hope. In fact, it seems pretty blatant that he loves that child above all else.

As for Haley running being the right decision, I've disagreed with that from the beginning. I never bought into Haley's Voice Mail about this being in the best interest of the child because, that's not how the decision was presented on screen. Basically, Jackson gave her an ultimatum and she chose Jackson/Pack over Klaus/Mikaelson. She later rationalized her decision in the VM but that betrayal was fairly well established. Going back to the happy family scene with Haley/Jackson/Hope on the bed after they first had sex.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Whitley Trillbert]

I saw the promise of a potentially bad ass supernatural duo in Davina and Vincent and I hope this show delivers that to me. 

[blixie]

 

Klaus is still acting like the same exact individual he was before Hope came into the picture.  He has to show me that he can be rehabilitated.

 

See and I absolutely think he has been, this season,  by FAR, the most reasonable Klaus we have ever seen over both shows histories. At the same time I don't need him to be fully rehabilitated, that's the journey that journey reasonably for someone with Klaus' karmic scale should never, could never really conclude. My pleasure in watching Klaus is watching him struggle, sometimes succeeding, and sometimes failing to be a better person. Rooting both for him, and against him.  And I certainly do think he loves his daughter and wants her to be safe, but it doesn't honestly surprise me that how Klaus conceptualizes that is very different than  say any normal human person would. I'm thinking back to that moment where Rebekah, brought Hope home at Christmas and they burned their wishes, I was reminded that he IS terrified of letting his guard down, and with more or less good reasons, but he is capable of doing it.  Doesn't mean that when he pulls shit like this or goes on one of his self serving rants, I don't want someone to put a dagger in him, or begrudge those he exploits, abuses, and tortures to kill him w/o compunction. And I personally LOVE his petulance, I don't think I could ever have watched this show if I didn't also love to hate/hate to love Klaus even at his worst.

[bluebonnet]

I certainly have never claimed that I need Klaus to be some fully rehabilitated sweet, kind person.  In fact, I've explicitly noted in this very thread and others that I love Klaus and his juicy villainess.  My point in remarking on a potential rehabilitation is that without it, I'm not going to buy that a snuggle with a baby is some valid declaration of love.  It's not.  JM the actor giving googoo eyes at baby Hope is not evidence of anything.  What Klaus the character does, might be.  He can remain petulant if he wants, but there are certain changes we need to see in the character in order to believe that he views people as more than just property he can control, even if he does make googoo eyes at them.  

[slayer2]

I think we're all going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I'm with the others in that you can see how much Klaus loves his daughter every time he looks at her; his entire face lights up more so than anyone else's ( and that might just be JM the actor vs PT, etc ). He sent her away at the end of last season because he knew it wasn't safe for her; he's said himself that he worries about whether or not he'll do good by her because of his relationship with Michael; was genuinly hurt when Elijah though he'd use his daughter's blood to create a hybrid army for himself (and even encouraged Hayley to go and alternative route in order to create a an army of hybrids he knows he could never control on his own). So not only have they given vocal evidence of his love for Hope , but we were also shown through both actions and just plain old good face acting. Again, YMMV

But the final showing of how much he loves his daughter (and even a smidgen of character growth), he let her mother live. OG Klaus would've killed everyone in a fit of rage. And if not Hayley....he'd have killed Jackson and then still put the cure on her. This time he only did one (and arguably protected Hayley from Dahlia killing her herself). Growth! (yes a smidgen of sarcasm on the growth bit, but still...it's progress)

Klaus not killing Hayley isn't love for Hope it's sanity. You can't truly believe Hope would ever speak to him again knowing he murdered her mother.

[Aeryn13]

 

You can't truly believe Hope would ever speak to him again knowing he murdered her mother.

 

Hope right now is too small to grasp anything. Heck, she hasn`t even started speaking. So he could easily plan to keep it from her forever. Might even suceed in doing it.

 

But I think he killed neither Hailey nor Elijah nor Rebekah is because they are all in his "safety bubble". Rebekah knows this. She said he would torment her forever but never kill her. Elijah probably knows this, too, but is too stark-raving mad right now (with good cause) to contemplate it. I do think Hailey has joined them there.

 

Ironically, Klaus` actions here were motivated both by trying to deceive Dahlia as well as vengeance against his siblings and Hailey. Doing what he did and being exceptionally cruel about it is stuff I could see him do JUST for vengeance. Which is think is the brilliance of it. Dahlia is vastly more powerful than him and you could see how suspicious and weary she was. One wrong move on his part and it would have all fallen apart.

 

Heck, I felt his obviously reneging on their deal with the blatant manipulation in the end was a risky move on his part. Though he kinda had no choice since he needs to stall her. By being himself, he managed to deceive her. If he had been any less cruel and thus any less himself, I think she would have seen right through the charade.

[Gwen-Stacys]

Klaus not killing Hayley isn't love for Hope it's sanity. You can't truly believe Hope would ever speak to him again knowing he murdered her mother.

 

For Klaus it is. For a normal person, yes, that was sanity (but there are some people irl who will kill a person for taking their child.) But because Hayley birthed his only child, that gave her a lot of slack, IMO. Anyone else would've died a sloooow, painful death, punctuated by many many Klaus speeches. 

[missbonnie]

By sticking papa tunde's blad into elijah and leaving rebekah with marcel he saved their lives, isn't that obvious, he made believe that it was his punishment since dahlia would have ended them in a second, considering the fact that their plan didn't work since, like dahlia said the blood of a witch she loved the most wasn't freya's , i have to guess ester was the one, but she is dead. so if klaus stayed daggered , and they went through with their plan dahlia would just ended them. I agree killing Gia was a little bit cruel and tad unnessesary,but if my brother put my daughter's life in danger by daggering me, and letting mother , who had no chance against dahlia to run with the baby i would wanna teach him a lesson too, i mean if i was klaus. And he told Cami to pull the blade put, didn't he, and he didn't kill hayley and jackson, who btw would get killed by dahlia in a second too, the curse can be reversed, death can not, by doing that he saved them too

That's pretty much how I saw it as well. I don't watch this show for it's political correctness. It's a tv show, I don't have a tally sheet of how many minorities etc are getting killed. I seriously do not not care that Gia went up in flames.

Edited May 11, 2015 by missbonnie

[Carrie Ann]

You're right--it's a TV show in America, where excluding or erasing minority characters is the norm. I'm not surprised that it's not notable or concerning for a lot of people.

[slayer2]

For Klaus it is. For a normal person, yes, that was sanity (but there are some people irl who will kill a person for taking their child.) But because Hayley birthed his only child, that gave her a lot of slack, IMO. Anyone else would've died a sloooow, painful death, punctuated by many many Klaus speeches.

Yeah but you can't discount that. Gotta repeat you can't kill the mother of your child and expect a relationship with said child, the child will find out. This is the internet era.

[Gwen-Stacys]

Yeah but you can't discount that. Gotta repeat you can't kill the mother of your child and expect a relationship with said child, the child will find out. This is the internet era.

 

In tvland you can. (*looks at The 100*)

[slayer2]

In tvland you can. (*looks at The 100*)

#FML why do I watch the CW?!

[rue721]

Is there any possibility that Rebekah could have popped herself back into her Original body by stabbing Evbekah in the throat, but that Marcel can still save *Eva* by feeding her his blood? Could Rebekah-in-her-Original-body *and* Eva both still be around?

 

Also, where is Finn right now? He's trapped in that locket or something?!

 

Hayley lost any sympathy on that front when she up and left and was, essentially, replacing Klaus with Jackson in Hopes life.

 

Yes, I cannot sympathize with Hayley trying to steal a child from her parent. That's wrong, imo. I just imagine someone stealing my baby away from me, and Klaus's response to Hayley starts looking downright restrained.

 

Imo, the situation gets more complicated if the parent who the child is being taken from doesn't love the child or is actively exploiting or destroying the child -- but that's not even the case here. Klaus is a terrible person, and seems to have rational/reasonable fears that he'll be a terrible father -- but I don't doubt his love for Hope and he's shown no sign of trying to exploit her for his own ends or otherwise override/ignore her best interests.

 

I admit that something that continually bugs me is that Hayley tried to justify taking Hope from Klaus because of Klaus's enemies. First off, I think it's bizarre that she would fan the flames of Klaus's paranoia WHILE separating him from Hope and making it difficult/impossible for him to protect her. Second off, the enemies who have proven most dangerous to Hope are enemies that Klaus himself inherited. It's not like he *made* enemies of Esther, Mikael, or Dahilia and sicced them on Hope somehow. Klaus has plenty of people who hate him because of horrible things he's done to them, but those enemies have just stuck to targeting Klaus and have really left Hope out of it afaik. Davina hasn't been trying to murder or kidnap Hope, for example.

 

All this also makes me think that Hayley was trying to run off with Jackson and Hope because she got this fantasy of having a perfect little family in her head, and when she realized that Klaus and the rest of the Mikaelsons didn't fit and would ruin that fantasy as long as they were around, she tried to dump them. She dumped the rest of the woofs, too. It wasn't for Hope's sake that she was trying to dump and abandon them all, it was because they were keeping her from HER fantasy life. I don't really begrudge Hayley having that fantasy, it's the same White Picket Fence thing that Rebekah seems interested in, too -- but once you have an ACTUAL family, including an ACTUAL baby and baby daddy, that Fantasy Perfect Family ship has sailed and you've got to deal with what you've actually got imo.

 

I am watching the same show however I don't like Klaus and don't excuse his sociopathic behaviour due to the reasons I've mentioned above and several others I've posted beyond this episode. I don't think Hope's life rates higher than Gia's or Rebekah's or Elijah's happiness or any other vamp simply because she belongs to Klaus. What he feels for her isn't love it's possession. I don't think Klaus is capable of love.

 

I personally don't think that Hope's life is worth more than Gia's, and that's the exact thought I had when Cami told Elijah that it was all just part of Klaus's plan.

 

But I don't have a problem with Klaus thinking that sacrificing Gia's life was worth it if it kept Hope safe. I think that's immoral, disagree, etc. But I can easily believe that, because of who he is as a person, Klaus could justify to himself that Gia's death and all of these other people's torture was worth it "for Hope's sake." And considering that I believe that he really does love his daughter and has a lot of hopes for himself pinned on her, there's even a part of me that can empathize with that self-justification.

 

On a meta level, I'm unhappy that Gia was killed. I thought she was interesting in her own right and I liked her. She also filled a really valuable role on the show imo -- not just because this show has a bizarre dearth of interesting/likable female characters and she helped fill that void, but also in that Klaus's love interest and baby mama are both SO DULL and awful, and having Gia (who imo wasn't at all dull or awful) as Elijah's love interest made for an interesting contrast imo. It said a lot imo that Klaus was pining after boring apologist Cami while Elijah was kindling things with Gia. W/r/t Elijah and Gia's relationship -- their friendship was too new and they hadn't interacted enough yet that I believed that Elijah and Gia were all that close or loved each other or anything atm, but I could easily have believed in a Gia/Elijah romance *eventually.* That all said, though, within the world of the show, I think it was in-character and was logical (in twisted Klaus logic) for Klaus to have tortured Elijah by murdering Gia in front of him. So I guess I'm torn. I'm very unhappy to see Gia go, but it's not for within-show reasons really, just for meta ones.

 

So who is the witch Dahlia loves the most, herself, right?

 

It would be hilarious if it were Dahlia herself, and I'm half-hoping that's the case. But I don't think that she's the type to think that way. She likes to play the martyr imo.

 

So I think that the witch that she loves the most is likely to be Esther. Especially since Dahlia acts like she's very put-upon because of Esther's betrayal of her for the Vikings/Mikael. And because it would just be hilarious that Klaus and Freya both killed Esther (at different times) and therefore made it impossible to stop Dahlia. LOL.

 

 It also crossed my mind that, when Klaus does find that car, he may find a wolf pup sitting in a car seat and chewing on a seatbelt.  Klaus put a curse on the Crescent pack, correct?  Wouldn't that mean Hope gets hit with it too?!?!?!

 

I actually had been wondering if it counted that Hayley technically died while giving birth to Hope.  Of course, it's not the baby's fault if something happens to the mother, especially if that something is a bunch of psycho witches. But for a sueprnatural world it would be almost too easy to decide that mother dying in childbirth is enough to spark the werewolf gene, if only so we could see a cute puppy on screen (while ignoring the part where it's the worst torture for a person to transition from human to wolf, of course).  

 

Yeah, I kept expecting to Hope to change along with Mary and the rest of the Crescents. But thinking back, I guess Esther or one of the other witches under her thrall were the ones to kill Hayley? They slit her throat as she was giving birth, didn't they?

 

I'm also wondering about the possibility of Hope sparking the werewolf gene, because I wonder if Klaus will be tempted to do a binding spell on her if she does?

 

It was the binding spell that made it impossible for Klaus to create more hybrids without the doppleganger's blood, wasn't it? And even though he broke the spell in terms of being able to transition at will, he wasn't able to get rid of the doppleganger "stipulation"? Whereas Hope's blood could be used to create hybrids (like Hayley) while she was in utero because she'd never had the binding spell on her? Though I don't know why Hayley can't make hybrids...OK, this is so confusing, dunno why I'm even wondering about this stuff right now. Lol.

 

But putting down Klaus for an indeterminate amount of time while he has an infant child is far crueler. That's robbing him of seeing his daughter grow up. So frankly the elements of revenge he carried out against his siblings (killing Gia, setting up Marcel and Rebekah) seem a touch less hypocritical than they normally would be. Not to mention that, big picture considered, his daggering was set off by something that was fairly innocuous, on the grand scale of horrific things Klaus does.

 

Klaus has also daggered Rebekah and Elijah under cruel circumstances. The "choice" he gave Marcel to either leave Rebekah daggered and become a vampire or be with Rebekah but never become a vampire comes to mind. I don't think this daggering was less justified or more cruel than many of the times he's daggered (or threatened to dagger) them.

 

But Klaus is WILDLY insecure and anxious, and of course he's going to freak out when he gets stabbed in the back by his siblings while his baby is being kidnapped/threatened by multiple super-powered people who hate him. Like Cami said, that's his worst nightmare. It's hypocritical, unfair, etc, of him. But if Klaus, who is Mr. Paranoid in the best of times, *hadn't* worked himself into a lather over being betrayed and abandoned, I would have called foul because it would have seemed so out of character.

 

When he said that it was no wonder that his siblings hated him, if this is what getting daggered felt like, I actually thought it was kind of maddening. Because his siblings DON'T hate him. He's been worse to them than he apparently even realized, and they STILL don't hate him. Though maybe it's better if Klaus never realizes that, because if he does realize that they really do still love him, he'll just torment them EVEN MORE to "force" them to turn against him and "reveal" to them what a monster he really is, etc.

 

Klaus not killing Hayley isn't love for Hope it's sanity. You can't truly believe Hope would ever speak to him again knowing he murdered her mother.

 

Klaus did mention that he was worried about Dahlia's plan because he figured that if he killed Hayley, that Dahlia would use that to turn Hope against him. So I knew he was unlikely to kill Hayley. He's no fool. I actually think that him cursing the Crescents was a relatively elegant act of revenge. Hayley was so into becoming ~one of them~ and Jackson was so keen on shutting Klaus out of the pack -- well, now they're probably going to be sorry they did that.

[Gwen-Stacys]

#FML why do I watch the CW?!

Just stick to the Superhero shows (or just The Flash, tbh)...they're goofy in nature so you can forgive them more. (Emphasis on The Flash here)

[missbonnie]

You're right--it's a TV show in America, where excluding or erasing minority characters is the norm. I'm not surprised that it's not notable or concerning for a lot of people.

What I meant was I see everyone as the same, period. I'm not keeping track of how many white, black, purple, green, straight, bi, gay, men and women there are. They are all characters on a tv show and I just want to be entertained, not be sitting there keeping track of all the other stuff. If I want to deal with that, I will watch the news. I mean really, I watch Empire and never gave it a second thought that they got rid of Jamal's Hispanic boyfriend. I don't have that kind of time, I am currently watching 15 different shows a week, I am happy just to keep up with the storyline.

[Carrie Ann]

I hear you, and I won't presume to know whether you count yourself among the marginalized groups you listed. But for a lot of people who do notice that stuff--characters who reflect themselves, because it's more of a rarity--they don't find it as easy to be colorblind, or whatever. When one of those characters is murdered simply to punish a white male character, that's frustrating. When another is killed to make room for the original (heh) white person to take over again, that's also frustrating.

 

We went from a show that at one point this season featured four black actors, one Indian-American actor (Gia), plus two queer characters, to now two black actors and one queer character. And everyone else is white and hetero (that we know of). That's a lot to swallow in the span of a half-season. As this kind of erasure and exclusion also notoriously occurs on TVD, people will continue to comment on it.

[FurryFury]

In tvland you can. (*looks at The 100*)

Seriously, you fault that show for THAT? I mean, I can get people nitpicking science stuff which is horrible, but not this.It was explored to a certain extent and makes perfect sense from the characters' POV.

 

//Yeah, I'll defend that show to the death. It doesn't get nearly enough love from anyone except AVClub.

 

As for color stuff, keep in mind that not everyone's American or, even if they are, are raised in the tradition you expect them to. The amount of attention some of you guys pay to race may seem really weird to an outside observer, even one familiar with the US history and the racial issues there. And I'm saying all of this in general, not in regards to the specifics, because as I've said earlier, I don't watch the show (and even I've noticed TVD had huge problems with race).

[slayer2]

I hear you, and I won't presume to know whether you count yourself among the marginalized groups you listed. But for a lot of people who do notice that stuff--characters who reflect themselves, because it's more of a rarity--they don't find it as easy to be colorblind, or whatever. When one of those characters is murdered simply to punish a white male character, that's frustrating. When another is killed to make room for the original (heh) white person to take over again, that's also frustrating.

We went from a show that at one point this season featured four black actors, one Indian-American actor (Gia), plus two queer characters, to now two black actors and one queer character. And everyone else is white and hetero (that we know of). That's a lot to swallow in the span of a half-season. As this kind of erasure and exclusion also notoriously occurs on TVD, people will continue to comment on it.

God (if there is one) bless you for this and bless you and bless you and bless you.

[missbonnie]

I hear you, and I won't presume to know whether you count yourself among the marginalized groups you listed. But for a lot of people who do notice that stuff--characters who reflect themselves, because it's more of a rarity--they don't find it as easy to be colorblind, or whatever. When one of those characters is murdered simply to punish a white male character, that's frustrating. When another is killed to make room for the original (heh) white person to take over again, that's also frustrating.

We went from a show that at one point this season featured four black actors, one Indian-American actor (Gia), plus two queer characters, to now two black actors and one queer character. And everyone else is white and hetero (that we know of). That's a lot to swallow in the span of a half-season. As this kind of erasure and exclusion also notoriously occurs on TVD, people will continue to comment on it.

I totally understand what you are saying. I think that this is related to how people watch tv and movies. For example, my best friend and I can watch the same tv show or movie and I notice not only the characters and the plot, but the music, lighting, special effects and cinematography and revel in how it adds to the show. She on the other hand, notices almost none of that, and if I rewind and point it out, she still doesn't see it. I don't know why, and I am kind of amazed that she doesn't see those things, but I have learned to accept that this is the way her brain processes film. My youngest daughter on the other hand, is exactly like me. We can go to a movie and discuss it for an hour or more afterwards.

[Gwen-Stacys]

Seriously, you fault that show for THAT? I mean, I can get people nitpicking science stuff which is horrible, but not this.It was explored to a certain extent and makes perfect sense from the characters' POV.

 

//Yeah, I'll defend that show to the death. It doesn't get nearly enough love from anyone except AVClub.

No need to defend it with me. I was just using it as an example. (And still maintain that Klaus saved Hayley's life with that spell bc Dahlia would've killed her, and even said so)