Lifetime's VC Andrews Movies Topic (Flowers In The Attic, The Dollangangers, The Casteels, etc) - General Discussion

[TattleTeeny]

Just for fun, has anyone picked up any anachronisms or errors? I don’t mean super-nitpicky or overly pedantic things—more like funny ones (though I suppose the distinction is subjective, haha!). For instance, back in My Sweet Audrina, there was a plastic water bottle on a nightstand.

[Scarlett45]

27 minutes ago, psychoticstate said:

Although she loved Corrine, maybe deep down she was resentful because despite making sacrifices for her, Corrine lied to her and chose to run off with a man she knew was her half-brother.  

Yes. I don’t recall Corinne lying to Olivia though. She seemed to be pretty authentic with her mom- with Malcolm no, but who could be with Malcolm. 
 

From the middle of movie 2, when Mal tells her they are all growing up and she needs to make a life for herself, we can see the seeds growing of Olivia’s resentment. Many well meaning parents fall into this trap (not to the drama of this series but still) “I sacrificed so you could have a better life.” Which really means “I sacrificed so you could have the life I would’ve wanted FOR MYSELF.”

Look I get Olivia being upset about Christopher and Corinne- but given that she spent years covering up for Malcolm’s raping, lying, MURDERING (his own father mind you) to protect the family name, she couldn’t do the same for Corinne for wanting to be with Christopher? Let them change their name and move away, go visit them in secret. 

[Scarlett45]

34 minutes ago, TattleTeeny said:

Just for fun, has anyone picked up any anachronisms or errors? I don’t mean super-nitpicky or overly pedantic things—more like funny ones (though I suppose the distinction is subjective, haha!). For instance, back in My Sweet Audrina, there was a plastic water bottle on a nightstand.

When Joel calls Harry “black” in Movie 3- not period appropriate. “Negro” was the most socially polite term to use, and that’s what Joel would’ve said “do you know what they would do to a Negro man who was accused of stealing from a white man like father?”

I know the writers had Malcolm used the word “Negro” to make him sound more offensive to the 21st century ear, because the words he would’ve used aren’t allowed on Lifetime. But still- it was 1941, black was a color not an ethnic group, “Negro” or “Colored” would’ve been polite terms to use. 

[psychoticstate]

10 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Yes. I don’t recall Corinne lying to Olivia though. She seemed to be pretty authentic with her mom- with Malcolm no, but who could be with Malcolm. 
 

From the middle of movie 2, when Mal tells her they are all growing up and she needs to make a life for herself, we can see the seeds growing of Olivia’s resentment. Many well meaning parents fall into this trap (not to the drama of this series but still) “I sacrificed so you could have a better life.” Which really means “I sacrificed so you could have the life I would’ve wanted FOR MYSELF.”

Look I get Olivia being upset about Christopher and Corinne- but given that she spent years covering up for Malcolm’s raping, lying, MURDERING (his own father mind you) to protect the family name, she couldn’t do the same for Corinne for wanting to be with Christopher? Let them change their name and move away, go visit them in secret. 

And therein is the problem, at least IMO, with not having JA at FH before Corrine runs off, as was in the book.  If JA had been there, we can certainly assume that he would have been telling Olivia what a complete sinner Corrine was - and he certainly would not have liked Christopher (evidenced by a kind of throw-away line where Olivia mentions that Corrine and the children were left destitute and JA says something he could see Christopher being a gambler - with absolutely zero evidence.)  At that point, Olivia might have humored his religious zeal but after Christopher and Corrine ran off together to marry, and choosing to do so after knowing their true relation to each other, JA's religious fervor might have gotten Olivia's attention.  After all, she had just helped Malcolm bury Mrs. Steiner on the property; she would have been an emotional mess after that - never mind adding seeing Christopher and Corrine being intimate together (and WITHOUT LOCKING THE DOOR.) 

Had JA remained at FH, as he did in the book, and without the creeping on Olivia, I could see JA being the one to tell Olivia that the children needed to be locked away, that their evil needed to be hidden so it didn't spread, that Corrine had to be punished, etc.  

 

[Scarlett45]

1 minute ago, psychoticstate said:

And therein is the problem, at least IMO, with not having JA at FH before Corrine runs off, as was in the book.  If JA had been there, we can certainly assume that he would have been telling Olivia what a complete sinner Corrine was - and he certainly would not have liked Christopher (evidenced by a kind of throw-away line where Olivia mentions that Corrine and the children were left destitute and JA says something he could see Christopher being a gambler - with absolutely zero evidence.)  At that point, Olivia might have humored his religious zeal but after Christopher and Corrine ran off together to marry, and choosing to do so after knowing their true relation to each other, JA's religious fervor might have gotten Olivia's attention. 

Yes I could see this too. Olivia hated some of the evil things Malcolm did, but she was a WILLING accessory to a lot of it, because yes, she liked being a wealthy Foxworth. She could’ve helped Alicia escape with Christopher before she started to show, with some cash and jewels, but she wanted that baby too. She also liked being the one in power for once. 
 

I think if John Amos had been at Foxworth Hall, being her primary confidante (let Nella move away sooner) that religious manipulation could’ve worked a lot better. 
 

John Amos through Christopher was a gambler because he knew about the incest. You know if someone has one “bad character” trait they probably have them all. Like how they used to accuse women who had babies without being married of being thieves and coming into married men (but of course men suffered no consequences). 
 

[Snow Apple]

40 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Look I get Olivia being upset about Christopher and Corinne- but given that she spent years covering up for Malcolm’s raping, lying, MURDERING (his own father mind you) to protect the family name, she couldn’t do the same for Corinne for wanting to be with Christopher? Let them change their name and move away, go visit them in secret. 

Right? She covered up two of Malcom's murders. How many rapes of young women that we didn't see. Look at him trying with Grace who looked about 14. Look at his behavior with Corrine! Sick Sick Sick.

She herself tried to kill Malcolm and succeeded with JA (even though it was in the heat of the moment and not premeditated). Why is Corrine/Christopher, who ended up with beautiful intelligent children, her hill to die on?

Edited July 31, 2022 by Snow Apple

[psychoticstate]

17 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Yes I could see this too. Olivia hated some of the evil things Malcolm did, but she was a WILLING accessory to a lot of it, because yes, she liked being a wealthy Foxworth. She could’ve helped Alicia escape with Christopher before she started to show, with some cash and jewels, but she wanted that baby too. She also liked being the one in power for once. 
 

I think if John Amos had been at Foxworth Hall, being her primary confidante (let Nella move away sooner) that religious manipulation could’ve worked a lot better. 
 

John Amos through Christopher was a gambler because he knew about the incest. You know if someone has one “bad character” trait they probably have them all. Like how they used to accuse women who had babies without being married of being thieves and coming into married men (but of course men suffered no consequences). 
 

Interesting points.

I cut Olivia some slack with regards to Alicia -- and I cut Alicia a lot of slack -- because I think both women were traumatized by Malcolm.  They both knew he had been raping Alicia and they both knew he had killed Garland.   While Alicia could have taken Christopher and left and outside of Virginia, most people wouldn't know her husband died before Corrine was conceived, I'm sure both she and Olivia knew Malcolm would never let that happen.  He made it very clear he wanted a daughter and no matter how events conspired, he was going to get one.   Alicia couldn't have been more than 21 at the time and she had no skills and no money.  I would guess that Olivia didn't know about Garland's will, where the fortune was to be split 50/50 between Malcolm and Christopher.  

I also think that for Olivia it wasn't so much being wealthy and being a Foxworth, it was that she didn't have anyone else.  She had no other family besides John Amos.  

John Amos and Malcolm should have been besties.  They were both disgusting.  

[TattleTeeny]

I thought it was odd that Corinne wasn’t more surprised by the change in Olivia. In the book, Corinne knew exactly what she was walking into, but here she wouldn’t have. Also odd that she was so casual about talking with her dad, as if she hadn’t clocked him on the head the last time she saw him.

[Scarlett45]

3 minutes ago, psychoticstate said:

Interesting points.

I cut Olivia some slack with regards to Alicia -- and I cut Alicia a lot of slack -- because I think both women were traumatized by Malcolm.  They both knew he had been raping Alicia and they both knew he had killed Garland.   While Alicia could have taken Christopher and left and outside of Virginia, most people wouldn't know her husband died before Corrine was conceived, I'm sure both she and Olivia knew Malcolm would never let that happen.  He made it very clear he wanted a daughter and no matter how events conspired, he was going to get one.   Alicia couldn't have been more than 21 at the time and she had no skills and no money.  I would guess that Olivia didn't know about Garland's will, where the fortune was to be split 50/50 between Malcolm and Christopher.  

I also think that for Olivia it wasn't so much being wealthy and being a Foxworth, it was that she didn't have anyone else.  She had no other family besides John Amos.  

John Amos and Malcolm should have been besties.  They were both disgusting.  

I do cut Olivia slack with the Alicia situation. I don’t think she had evil intentions towards Alicia, Malcolm was the villain here. But I think that the Alicia situation was the first step to her siding with the abuser for her own survival and her moral lines becoming blurred. It’s like the stories you hear of kidnap victims helping their abuser procure more victims. 
 

While Malcolm was the one who struck the final blow to kill Mrs Steiner, I don’t think Olivia’s anger towards her was just to protect Corinne’s reputation. Also what proof did Mrs Steiner have- there was no DNA tests back then, as as far as Corinne not looking like Olivia- she looked like Malcolm! Plenty of kids favor one parent and not another. 

19 minutes ago, Snow Apple said:

Right? She covered up two of Malcom's murders. How many rapes of young women that we didn't see. Look at him trying with Grace who looked about 14. Look at his behavior with Corrine! Sick Sick Sick.

She herself tried to kill Malcolm and succeeded with JA (even though it was in the heat of the moment and not premeditated). Why is Corrine/Christopher, who ended up with beautiful intelligent children, her hill to die on?

There are plenty of people who are hypocrites like that though. Especially around sexual things. Yes incest is a big taboo (rightfully so) but Christopher and Corinne did meet as adults, this wasn’t a case of abuse or something, it was consensual. Many people will turn a blind eye to rape and sexual abuse of vulnerable people (like kids) but how dare two grown adults of the same sex be in love!

Perhaps Olivia was so damaged emotionally by that point she felt this was her shot to make up for all the wrong she did. To stop the spread of the Foxworth DNA by locking up the kids- in this set of films Celila didn’t have any bio kids, maybe she couldn’t or didn’t want any (since she married a man who was a widower it wasn’t an issue). 

5 minutes ago, TattleTeeny said:

I thought it was odd that Corinne wasn’t more surprised by the change in Olivia. In the book, Corinne knew exactly what she was walking into, but here she wouldn’t have. Also odd that she was so casual about talking with her dad, as if she hadn’t clocked him on the head the last time she saw him.

Yes. I think Corinne would’ve been surprised at the changes in Olivia, which would’ve been so much better explained if we had more of creepy John Amos as @psychoticstate pointed out. 

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, psychoticstate said:

I also think that for Olivia it wasn't so much being wealthy and being a Foxworth, it was that she didn't have anyone else.  She had no other family besides John Amos.  

I wanted to add to this. I certainly think the money helped a lot. If you can’t be happy you might as well be comfortable- I don’t blame her for that.
 

She was also very committed to protecting the Foxworth name and legacy. 

At the beginning of movie 4 after she confesses to Christopher and Corinne that they are half siblings, she tells Corinne “all this can be yours one day.”- she wants to save it all for Corinne (which I get, I don’t blame her for!) Mal is dead, Joel is gone (and likely never tried to collect his trust for fear Malcolm would find him, lock him up again etc etc) Corinne would get everything. Maybe then everything Olivia did would be worth it, but if Corinne walked away from the money and the name, what was it for???

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, psychoticstate said:

Interesting points.

I cut Olivia some slack with regards to Alicia -- and I cut Alicia a lot of slack -- because I think both women were traumatized by Malcolm.  They both knew he had been raping Alicia and they both knew he had killed Garland.   While Alicia could have taken Christopher and left and outside of Virginia, most people wouldn't know her husband died before Corrine was conceived, I'm sure both she and Olivia knew Malcolm would never let that happen.  He made it very clear he wanted a daughter and no matter how events conspired, he was going to get one.   Alicia couldn't have been more than 21 at the time and she had no skills and no money.  I would guess that Olivia didn't know about Garland's will, where the fortune was to be split 50/50 between Malcolm and Christopher.  

I also think that for Olivia it wasn't so much being wealthy and being a Foxworth, it was that she didn't have anyone else.  She had no other family besides John Amos.  

John Amos and Malcolm should have been besties.  They were both disgusting.  

I do too. Malcolm was never going to let Alicia go with the baby. It was never going to happen. He had all the money and resources to find her, kill her and take the baby. Nella was right in everything she told Alicia. By that point Malcolm already made a threat to Olivia about dying in childbirth and locking Olivia up in an asylum. I also do think Olivia took it as an opportunity to get some power of her own. She insisted on Alicia getting her inheritance and two million for Mal and Joel. It was really the only chance she had to try and get her sons' out from under Malcolm's thumb. She was never going to get another one. She did enjoy turning the power from being able to make demands from Malcolm. 

The last hour of Part IV really undermines all of Olivia's motivations in FITA. Amos is dead so Olivia should and would have disgarded everything he said. In the book Olivia really felt it was her fault or part of it that Christopher and Corrine ended up together. She really believed she need to fix it. It was easy to see her getting to that point. Her sons were dead, her daughter ran off with her half-uncle, and she was stuck with Malcolm and Amos maniuplating her. But he's dead and Malcolm's out of commission. There's nothing to get her to that point of locking up the kids.

Corrine knew before she arrived that her kids would be locked up. She made that comment as their walking from the train station about Carrie or Cory to enjoying being outside. She agreed to the deal. This Corrine I can't see taking her kids back to Foxworth Hall unless Malcolm was dead. 

[Scarlett45]

4 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

The last hour of Part IV really undermines all of Olivia's motivations in FITA. Amos is dead so Olivia should and would have disgarded everything he said. In the book Olivia really felt it was her fault or part of it that Christopher and Corrine ended up together. She really believed she need to fix it. It was easy to see her getting to that point. Her sons were dead, her daughter ran off with her half-uncle, and she was stuck with Malcolm and Amos maniuplating her. But he's dead and Malcolm's out of commission. There's nothing to get her to that point of locking up the kids.

It really does. 
 

I think it could’ve been written better if Olivia invited John Amos to Foxworth Hall before Malcom’s accident, and John Amos KNEW what she did, and the guilt was eating her up. John Amos offering her “gods redemption” plus the knowledge that she tried to kill Malcolm would’ve made it very plausible that he could’ve manipulated her into locking up the children. 

7 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

Corrine knew before she arrived that her kids would be locked up. She made that comment as their walking from the train station about Carrie or Cory to enjoying being outside. She agreed to the deal. This Corrine I can't see taking her kids back to Foxworth Hall unless Malcolm was dead. 

Yes. But if in this story Corinne didn’t know about the attic situation, but knew Malcolm was physically paralyzed and incapable of harming her or the children, she might have agreed to it. This version of Corinne was not in denial about who Malcolm was, and she was willing to knock him in the head to save Christopher. 
 

We still don’t know what turned her heart from the manipulative girl who had a moral compass and genuine love for Mal, Joel, Olivia, to a child poisoning mother. 

[toodywoody]

I loved the use of color in this episode. The further Olivia got into her insanity and worship, the more the color drained out of what she wore and how Foxworth Hall looked. When Corinne and the kids came back, it was so dark and dreary and nothing like the night she left. The mansion inside was dark and nothing like it was. It looked like it slowly was dying with every last strip of color taken out of it. 

This part was just as good as part 3 and I wish they would redo each of the movies now. And seeing the kids and how Olivia had turned into such a cold person. And seeing the kids, you see Cathy and how ghe seeds of what will come are planted.

This was a great mini series. 

[Scarlett45]

2 minutes ago, toodywoody said:

I loved the use of color in this episode. The further Olivia got into her insanity and worship, the more the color drained out of what she wore and how Foxworth Hall looked. When Corinne and the kids came back, it was so dark and dreary and nothing like the night she left. The mansion inside was dark and nothing like it was. It looked like it slowly was dying with every last strip of color taken out of it. 

This part was just as good as part 3 and I wish they would redo each of the movies now. And seeing the kids and how Olivia had turned into such a cold person. And seeing the kids, you see Cathy and how ghe seeds of what will come are planted.

This was a great mini series. 

Yes- I hadn’t mentioned that. The cinematography was great, I saw how the color and decor just left the sets and the clothing as Olivia descended into her insanity and despair. 

[StaceyNotStacie]

This was just so well done from the casting to the scenery to the background music.  I know Lifetime doesn’t usually get Emmy love, but I’d love to see this nominated in the short term series category. 
 

My DVR described the episodes as Season 1 Episodes 1-4. I wonder if they did this knowing there were going to be sequels to the story separate from the movies. I know there’s a sequel series of books where they find Christopher’s diary (not sure if they’re considered canon), but that would be an interesting POV since the movies were from Cathy’s POV. 
 

When Corinne was living her life with Christopher, she spoke so fondly of Olivia as a mother and how she made everything look so easy.  I would love to see her reconcile that with how Olivia treated her children. 

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

We still don’t know what turned her heart from the manipulative girl who had a moral compass and genuine love for Mal, Joel, Olivia, to a child poisoning mother. 

We really don't. I really wish we did. That's the question we never had answered from the books either. They did such a good job with almost most of the episodes that I wish they had. Seeds were planted with Corrine poisoning Malcolm because she wanted to go to a party but take a step back when that lead to the unintentional death of Mal. Maybe she forgot or assumed if she knew Malcolm was in a wheelchair after his heart attack that she could win him over but forgot who she was dealing with. When she was able to come and go as she pleased and spend money on whatever she wanted did she think that she was correct? Until the will was read and she realized Malcolm never forgave her and gave her one last FU? Or was it by that time she was no long interested in her kids, if so why? She had stopped spending time with them and didn't even bother with the twins anymore. Did she not care or did she already know about what was added to the will? She dated and married Bart who had to know. He was her lawyer. Why did she marry Bart without telling him about the kids? What was her plan? How did she change? I really think they could have handled it well given how well they did with the first three episodes and the awesome first hour. 

[Kiki777]

Who exactly is Grace, the young girl Malcolm targets after Corinne runs away?  Is she Celia’s daughter, making her Malcolm’s granddaughter?

[Scarlett45]

27 minutes ago, Kiki777 said:

Who exactly is Grace, the young girl Malcolm targets after Corinne runs away?  Is she Celia’s daughter, making her Malcolm’s granddaughter?

No, she’s Celila’s step daughter (Harry’s younger sister). Her and Harry’s mom died when they were quite young and Celila married their dad. 
 

Malcolm is still terrible and disgusting though. That girl was a teenager, and was just trying to complete her chores. If she had gotten in that car there would’ve been no hope for her.  I am surprised though Malcolm never tried to assault Celia, but he probably thought Nella would actually kill him if he did that (and I think she would’ve). 

[Kiss my mutt]

I had grown quite fond of Olivia and although I knew her transformation was coming it was still startling and sad for me. I kept thinking maybe there is still a glimmer of her old self there and now that she’s in control and JA gone, she could find her center again. I think because the JA storyline wasn’t fleshed out, it didn’t make a lot of sense to me in the context of this version. 
I am hopeful they have FITA in mind as they did since they did go into that story in the last scene if I am have my books straight. 
I was so worried about Harry the entire series, so I’m glad he is alive and well. I am bummed not to see Christopher because my dead romantic heart stirred when he was on screen!

Although this last episode didn’t quite gel for me, I think this version was brilliant and will stand the test of time even with the deviations from the book.

[Daisy]

This episode to me felt like a watching the heavy gold medal favourite flub the ending of the routine and get silver instead. It was really good. but i just felt they dropped the ball.

[psychoticstate]

6 hours ago, Daisy said:

This episode to me felt like a watching the heavy gold medal favourite flub the ending of the routine and get silver instead. It was really good. but i just felt they dropped the ball.

Very well put.

[Scarlett45]

7 hours ago, Daisy said:

This episode to me felt like a watching the heavy gold medal favourite flub the ending of the routine and get silver instead. It was really good. but i just felt they dropped the ball.

1 hour ago, psychoticstate said:

Very well put.

Yes that’s a great analogy. 
 

The first half an hour was great. Olivia’s scheming for Malcolm’s injury was great. And her cold sadistic pleasure in seeing her abuser suffer was well done. 
 

But they really dropped the ball with John Amos who I think was essential into her descent into religious fanaticism. 
 

I also would’ve appreciated more scenes of Christopher & Corinne’s life together. Even little snippets. The first scene of them in the crummy apartment was well done. 

[Daisy]

43 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Yes that’s a great analogy. 
 

The first half an hour was great. Olivia’s scheming for Malcolm’s injury was great. And her cold sadistic pleasure in seeing her abuser suffer was well done. 
 

But they really dropped the ball with John Amos who I think was essential into her descent into religious fanaticism. 
 

I also would’ve appreciated more scenes of Christopher & Corinne’s life together. Even little snippets. The first scene of them in the crummy apartment was well done. 

I am glad that I was right - an I do think having Olivia be responsible for Malcolm going paralyzed was a good touch, because the show did a really good thing of showing that nearly every time that Olivia took the reins on something, it ended up being blown back up in her face in an antitheses of how she was when she was with her father. 

But they worked soooo hard to humanize Olivia and Corine (which were needed) that they forgot that they had to show how Corrine even had the inclination of killing her children, and how Olivia would have no hesitation keeping them up there.  

Having John Amos try to sexual assault Olivia felt 100 percent unnecessary because he was what stoked the "Demon Spawn" fire.

And I will say, having Corrine and Christopher know that they were brother and sister, just... felt wrong. that was the big secret that truly spawned all the demon spawn, and the threat of imperfection. and the Sins of the Parents onto the children etc and the really big key of - that Olivia had to will herself not to love them because she loved Christopher. (and this movie really hammered home that she loved Corrine, where as in the books I don't think Olivia had any real love for her) Also (if i remember rightly) Malcolm and she got to a place of.... tolerance, if not acceptance, and she was afraid that he would love the children too  especially the girls. (this is not to weaken the stance that Malcolm is Malcolm and he totally would have stuck it to Corrine for leaving him etc) - but I do think a good chunk of "NO MONEY WILL BE YOURS IF YOU HAD CHILDREN" was pushed by John Amos. 

having Chris and Corrine know and then ultimately go "meh whatever, i don't love you like a brother/sister" really mitiages the whole. "Are they normal?" question when Olivia sees the kids, and Corrine's "WE TEMPTED FATE! FOUR TIMES!!" because Corrine is saying this thinking "yeah, who cares if i screwed my uncle," where Olivia is like omg thank God nothing deformed came from Corine screwing her brother. (and I am sorry, I can sort of see Christopher risking children with a niece, but knowingly making children with his half sister?)

They were so focused on making Malcolm the evil (which Max Irons did deliciously), that they forgot that they also had to make it abundantly clear that he also loved his other children. He mourned when Mal was killed, and Joel's death broke both Olivia and. Mal. it was that death (right on top of finding out that Corrine + Christopher were lovers) that pushed them both into the fanatical arms of John Amos. 

[and I mean I like Joel, and I am glad he got Harry and they are in Tangiers LOL, but again - how does THIS Joel turn into the Joel of Seeds of Yesterday?  if anything Harry should have died, and tonnes of SINNAH!! SINNAAAAHHHH!!!! raging in his ears which coupled with the damage of the electric shock therapy twisted him. maybe that happens in Tangier, i dunno]

Dead honest, watching this - it just leaves you the question of why this Corrine would murder her kids for money?  again - they humanized Corrine so much they forgot to show the fact (minus the fact she tried to kill her dad to go party), she was spoiled and selfish.  Why the heck was Christopher a doctor? He had to give it up because of Corrine. 

They also didn't twist in the knife of betrayal enough. Again, Malcolm grew to love Christopher. Olivia already adored him. they put that all on Corrine so you never really felt the gut punch of just how much Christopher betrayed them in the most ... horrendous way.(and they made corrine stupid by like showing Christopher the will  right then and there where she could legit just use that to blackmail them for money LOL). 

It really felt like this episode was like oh CRAP, we have to wrap everything up! LET'S GO! and to me, it really felt like that esp. near the end.  They still did a really good job, overall - and they still make me want them to re-do flowers in the attic (That little girl was totally Cathy, you could see it with the whole. "You are talking to me. clap back to Olivia). This WAS The Grandmother. but Corrine wasn't Corrine. 

ironically i think this one needed one more episode. to really get it home. (either that or cut out other things in the previous movies to lay the ground work better, but then what do you really cut out?)

[Scarlett45]

27 minutes ago, Daisy said:

Having John Amos try to sexual assault Olivia felt 100 percent unnecessary because he was what stoked the "Demon Spawn" fire.

Taking the time to really dive into your response. 

I think the John Amos storyline could've been a lot better, IF John Amos showed up and was the only person (after the kids were gone) to show Olivia kindness and offer her companionship. After the years abuse by Malcolm, and the death of her sons, the absence of Corinne she would've been super susceptible to the manipulation. 

30 minutes ago, Daisy said:

nd I will say, having Corrine and Christopher know that they were brother and sister, just... felt wrong. that was the big secret that truly spawned all the demon spawn, and the threat of imperfection. and the Sins of the Parents onto the children etc and the really big key of - that Olivia had to will herself not to love them because she loved Christopher. (and this movie really hammered home that she loved Corrine, where as in the books I don't think Olivia had any real love for her) Also (if i remember rightly) Malcolm and she got to a place of.... tolerance, if not acceptance, and she was afraid that he would love the children too  especially the girls. (this is not to weaken the stance that Malcolm is Malcolm and he totally would have stuck it to Corrine for leaving him etc) - but I do think a good chunk of "NO MONEY WILL BE YOURS IF YOU HAD CHILDREN" was pushed by John Amos. 

having Chris and Corrine know and then ultimately go "meh whatever, i don't love you like a brother/sister" really mitiages the whole. "Are they normal?" question when Olivia sees the kids, and Corrine's "WE TEMPTED FATE! FOUR TIMES!!" because Corrine is saying this thinking "yeah, who cares if i screwed my uncle," where Olivia is like omg thank God nothing deformed came from Corine screwing her brother. (and I am sorry, I can sort of see Christopher risking children with a niece, but knowingly making children with his half sister?)

I think the "knife of the betrayal" would've worked better if Christopher had been a member of the Foxworth family for longer. I get that with a TV movie you want adult actors (not dealing with tweens), but when Mal dies Corinne is 16 (and some change, her bday is the middle of movie 2 where we get the time jump to the adult actors), an entire year plus has passed, and she is planning her 18th birthday/debutante party when Christopher shows up. She and Christopher know each other a few months before they decide to run away together. Had Corinne been younger when Christopher showed up (14 or so) and Christopher was in HS, starting college, and coming home during breaks, we could've seen how Malcolm and Olivia didn't see this coming.

Yeah, Christopher and Corinne were very closely related (half siblings AND half uncle-niece, they had the same mom, and the same paternal line, genetically they were more like full siblings because of that). But birth defects related to incest don't really work that way, it becomes a problem (outside of specific diseases like Sickle Cell, Tay- Sachs, Cystic Fibrosis) when generations reproduce together, over and over again (the Haspburgs anyone?). There are instance of women who have been raped/held captive by their fathers (like that woman in Austria who was held captive in the basement) and all of the children she conceived were healthy. 

38 minutes ago, Daisy said:

Dead honest, watching this - it just leaves you the question of why this Corrine would murder her kids for money?  again - they humanized Corrine so much they forgot to show the fact (minus the fact she tried to kill her dad to go party), she was spoiled and selfish.  Why the heck was Christopher a doctor? He had to give it up because of Corrine. 

Yes. She did poison Malcolm to go to a party, (which was awful) but she wasn't trying to kill him. And Malcolm was a grown ass man who was awful to her. (and so many people there were a number of suspects) She was DEVASTATED when Mal died.  Why would THIS woman try to kill her children? It would be more likely she would poison Malcolm again. Having Christopher give up his education because they changed their name etc should've been included. 

40 minutes ago, Daisy said:

It really felt like this episode was like oh CRAP, we have to wrap everything up! LET'S GO! and to me, it really felt like that esp. near the end.  They still did a really good job, overall - and they still make me want them to re-do flowers in the attic (That little girl was totally Cathy, you could see it with the whole. "You are talking to me. clap back to Olivia). This WAS The Grandmother. but Corrine wasn't Corrine. 

That girl was Cathy. "Shouldn't they love us no matter what?" Christopher was more agreeable and pleasing. Cathy wasn't mean, but she had BOUNDARIES and a strong self image. Olivia probably hated that, along with the fact that Cathy was beautiful like Corinne. I could see this Olivia after years of abuse and emotional neglect become an abuser towards the Dollangagner children. If they re-do FITA, I want it from Olivia/Corinne's perspective. Shoot all of the stuff with the child actors first, and fill in the "downstairs" of Foxworth Hall. Cast an intriguing Bart Winslow

43 minutes ago, Daisy said:

[and I mean I like Joel, and I am glad he got Harry and they are in Tangiers LOL, but again - how does THIS Joel turn into the Joel of Seeds of Yesterday?  if anything Harry should have died, and tonnes of SINNAH!! SINNAAAAHHHH!!!! raging in his ears which coupled with the damage of the electric shock therapy twisted him. maybe that happens in Tangier, i dunno]

If this Joel ends up in Seeds of Yesterday (there was no Joel in the movie), then I think Harry dies in a hate crime, and perhaps Joel is seriously injured- Joel suffers a TBI and that leads to more of the fire/brimestone stuff. 

[Daisy]

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

If this Joel ends up in Seeds of Yesterday (there was no Joel in the movie), then I think Harry dies in a hate crime, and perhaps Joel is seriously injured- Joel suffers a TBI and that leads to more of the fire/brimestone stuff. 

that could work :)

[chabelisaywow]

So many unnecessary characters. Story strayed too far from the main point. This prequel was to show that Olivia wasn't evil at FIRST - and that Chris and Corinne were actually siblings.  No more! No more.  The books got worse over time and the movies just have never worked.  One weird fact - "Petals on the Wind" was my favorite of the series and it is the only one that doesn't have an Audible version.  "If there Be Thorns" is my least favorite. 

[CountryGirl]

I'll agree with those who thought this episode was the weakest of the quartet, which is a shame as I love this series so much. 

It started off quite well with Olivia's discovery of Corinne and Christopher as lovers, even if I didn't agree with the massive change from GoS where Olivia reveals, in an attempt to dissuade them from pursuing their relationship, that they are not just half-uncle/half-niece but half-siblings. That was the reveal of all reveals, but Olivia being the one to discover them and doing much of the heavy lifting of carrying the truth of their true nature of their relationship was, I think, part of what turned her into the vicious Grandmother of FITA. In the book, only John Amos and Malcolm knew the truth. Corinne and Christopher just shrugging off this life-changing information didn't ring true to me, so what was the point, exactly?

I will say that the scenes of them planning their escape and Malcolm's attack on first, Christopher, then Olivia and Corinne, had me on the edge of my seat, even though I knew they would, in fact, escape, and make new lives elsewhere. It was also a fitting change that Chris Sr did inherit half of everything from Garland and Malcolm hid it all of these years.

We could see her heartache in losing them as she had lost Mal and Joel, even though I can also agree that there should have been more build-up with Corinne and Christopher's teenage years and seeing more of the bond that Olivia had with Christopher and with Malcolm as well. 

Olivia stopping Malcolm from raping the servant girl and realizing he will never change being the final impetus on her getting her revenge on Malcolm. It being her that caused him to be wheelchair-bound was a welcome change. I liked that Nella talked her out of fixing the brakes on the car as her son-in-law would be blamed and, considering the times, lynched in the process. Her weakening the staircase railing so that Malcolm would fall and that little moment of her toeing the saw she used further into the fire to hide the evidence was well-done.

Equally effective was Olivia, being raised by her father to be his right hand in business, taking over for Malcolm and putting the BOD in their place when they attempt to question her taking over as president following Malcolm's incapacity.

Nella finally feeling free to leave FH was one of the few bright spots in the series and I cannot think but how different things might have been had Olivia had the sense to leave, too. She could have had relationships with her children, Christopher included, had she done so. I think it had to hurt that Joel, through Harry's letters, was much more in communication with Harry's family than his own, but I can't blame Joel there. Her staying with Malcolm, regardless of the circumstances, was proof that she had taken sides, even if she had helped to rescue him previously. I did love that Harry and Joel seem to have gotten their happy ending.

Possibly UO, but after the initial glee of watching Olivia torture Malcolm, it became kind of redundant and, dare I say, boring after a while. Although I suppose it was to show the fracturing of Olivia with knowing the difference between right and wrong somehow.

Elsewhere, the crumbs of Christopher and Corinne's life away from FX were simply not enough for me. Corinne initially flinching at the prospect of their first home together, roaches and all, and then focusing on what really mattered - being together with the love of her life - and turning on the radio was too-brief a moment. I wanted to know more about their marriage, them as parents. It made Christopher's death seem hollow somehow. We didn't see the devastation of Corinne or the children at the loss that could have helped explain, beyond the financial worries, her reaching out to the family from whom she had escaped for a lifeline. Show had a golden opportunity to show us more but chose instead to put one scene after another of torture porn. 

Another missed opportunity was bringing back John Amos. He should have been brought back much sooner, after Mal's death, so that he had already started to fill a void in Olivia's life with the loss of Mal, then Joel, then Christopher and Corinne. Him returning after everyone had left might have still worked, but it seemed he returned less to get Olivia on the straight and narrow but to hit on her now that Malcolm is out of the way. And I can't reconcile the Olivia who slaps him and calls him out on being a hypocrite for wanting to commit the same sins he condemns Corinne for with the Grandmother. Her killing him for trying to rape her after she had been raped so many times by Malcolm made sense but that it was in self-defense only separates her from the Grandmother of FITA. Not to mention the glaring presence of John Amos in FITA and ITBT (he is briefly seen in the 2014 film).

The return of the children, in the middle of the night, and being snuck into a back entrance was spot-on, but I groaned audibly when I saw Olivia pass by the ginormous box of RAT POISON. Are we supposed to think it was Olivia's idea or Olivia, herself, who poisoned the kids? The poisoning didn't occur until the children were locked up for over 2 years so that was just clumsy, ham-fisted writing. The scenes of them being ushered up the back stairs and through the halls were well-done and added that sense of forboding.

I thought the 2014 cast was fine, the actor who played Christopher Jr, especially, but this cast, Chris and Cathy especially, were even better. The mannerisms, facial expressions, and what little dialogue they had sold me on this cast - please let there be another remake (as a 4-part mini-series), it's been 8 years. That moment where she locks the door is as creepy as the first time I read the passages in FITA and GoS. 

While I loved the mini-series as a whole, especially E3, it greatly missed the mark in two aspects: (1) Showing how this Olivia, who loved her children, no matter what, became the Olivia of FITA, who would lock away children, starve them, beat them and (2) how did Corinne, who seemed a loving, caring mother, who adored Chris Sr so much she turned her back on millions and risked being a social pariah, should the truth of their relationship be found out, turn into a cold-blooded killer? Corinne having the final voice-over and a seemingly sinister one at that just didn't ring true to me.

With both women, it seemed you add one ingredient (a Bible in Oliva's case and millions of $$$ in Corinne's) and presto! Evil Grandmother and Psycho Mother. 

It was interesting though that Malcolm did not appear to know about the children, which is something I've always wondered myself. What did he know? And when did he know it?

To sum up, I greatly enjoyed this mini-series, even if I was disappointed in the conclusion as it leaves so many questions unanswered. 

Here's to hoping they reboot the entire series as four 4-part mini-series and actually, I wish they had another episode for this one to show what was going on in the rest of the house while the children were locked away.

[TattleTeeny]

Quote

Possibly UO, but after the initial glee of watching Olivia torture Malcolm, it became kind of redundant and, dare I say, boring after a while. Although I suppose it was to show the fracturing of Olivia with knowing the difference between right and wrong somehow.

I know he deserved it and more, but I have a tough time with someone abusing a person in a wheelchair and that kind of stuff. But then she later got the same from Cathy, I guess (which I also didn't love!).

[Daisy]

I will say I do like the inclusion of Nella, because John Amos v. Nella made sense. they were fighting over Olivia's soul. But again it would have been stronger if Amos was there longer and Nella saw the slippage.  sooner. (I will say everyone else was unnecessary. Other than that really funny moment with Mal, Malcolm and Mal threatening Malcolm with Celia, it brought nothing to the table).  Again it just showed that Mal was THE EVUL but we knew that already

I'll be the stick in the mud - I don't really think i want to know a downstairs version of FITA. I mean maybe you can expand on it and show more Corrine, but i think.. (for me). the power of the story is not knowing when it happened.  I think the true thing what happened downstairs was that life happened. Three years worth of it where the Children's lives simply... stopped. i mean I'd watch it and I'd watch it w/this Corrine, but for me it would be akin to having an Annie novel in Casteels LOL

[psychoticstate]

After reading everyone's posts, this is what I wish had happened in Episode 4:

After JA had given Olivia the Bible, saying she could find salvation there (paraphrasing), they cut away to go to Christopher and Corrine.  I would rather have seen the passing of time by the addition of the children and in family photographs.  We could have shown Christopher and Corrine celebrating an anniversary and could have Christopher come home to Corrine in a new dress and/or new furnishings in the house and while he tells her it's okay, we can see a concerned look on his face.  I also wish they had shown Christopher leaving work on his birthday to hurry home to his party and then we see the accident about to happen.  It should definitely have had more of an emotional punch for the viewer.  And I think it would have benefitted to show the aftermath for Corrine and the children.  

Then we could go back to FH and find Olivia overly religious and still have the scene in the chapel with JA.  I think the religious overdrive would have sold more if we'd seen less.  

We definitely need a second "season" to reconcile the Corrine we did see with the Corrine who would poison her children.  I would also like to see how her relationship with Malcolm evolves, with him being incapacitated.  Maybe she very quickly charms him and becomes a loving caregiver (unlike Olivia).  Would that make Olivia resentful and then she would turn that resentment to the children?  I'd like to find out.

[Scarlett45]

22 hours ago, TattleTeeny said:

I know he deserved it and more, but I have a tough time with someone abusing a person in a wheelchair and that kind of stuff. But then she later got the same from Cathy, I guess (which I also didn't love!).

Yes- the thing is, although Malcolm was a POS that certainly deserved whatever he had coming to him, torturing someone that can’t fight back eventually says more about the torturer than whatever they did to deserve it. She was becoming more like Malcolm. Had she just left him in his wheelchair after his accident and ignored him (with a nurse to care for him), her “soul” wouldn’t have been marked IMO. 

[TattleTeeny]

YES! Says more about her than it does about him, exactly.

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Yes- the thing is, although Malcolm was a POS that certainly deserved whatever he had coming to him, torturing someone that can’t fight back eventually says more about the torturer than whatever they did to deserve it. She was becoming more like Malcolm. Had she just left him in his wheelchair after his accident and ignored him (with a nurse to care for him), her “soul” wouldn’t have been marked IMO. 

If they were going to have Olivia continue to torture Malcolm it should have been for that reason. Show she's becoming more like Malcolm and the person who would lock up four kids and beat them. 

[Scarlett45]

19 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

If they were going to have Olivia continue to torture Malcolm it should have been for that reason. Show she's becoming more like Malcolm and the person who would lock up four kids and beat them. 

That’s where I thought they were going with it!

[CountryGirl]

11 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

That’s where I thought they were going with it!

Same - up until the whole thing with John Amos trying to kiss her, I was sure they were going there but then she called him out on being a hypocrite and how dare he judge Corinne et al. 

[Snow Apple]

I don't remember if we talked about the scene with Nella's going away party. Olivia dancing with another man right in front of Malcolm was awesome. A shame Olivia and Nella's relationship ended the way it did.

Someone upthread said Nella and JA were battling for Olivia's soul and that's an interesting observation. Too bad JA's views won even though she realized what he was in the end.

[Scarlett45]

16 hours ago, Snow Apple said:

I don't remember if we talked about the scene with Nella's going away party. Olivia dancing with another man right in front of Malcolm was awesome. A shame Olivia and Nella's relationship ended the way it did.

Someone upthread said Nella and JA were battling for Olivia's soul and that's an interesting observation. Too bad JA's views won even though she realized what he was in the end.

Yes. Given VC Andrews is kind of “gothic horror” it makes sense. It is not surprising that after decades of abuse and mistreatment from Malcolm, with her kids being her only “bright spot”, after they were gone her heart was poisoned. It would’ve taken a lot of self awareness and fortitude to turn her heart toward’s Nella’s way of living. But although Nella suffered abuse and mistreatment she did have a circle of people that loved her, and a community to offer her emotional support through that. Olivia just had her kids- Mal died tragically, Joel had to leave to save his life, and Corinne ran off with Christopher. “Starting over” is a lot easier emotionally at 20 something than at 50 something. 

[TattleTeeny]

We need to figure ut a way to keep this conversation going, even though the series is over! I like this forum!

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, TattleTeeny said:

We need to figure ut a way to keep this conversation going, even though the series is over! I like this forum!

So other than this series being the clear favorite, I think I liked the Casteel series best. The hair coloring was all wrong for everyone, but there were some kick ass moments. I much prefer when they do one movie a week for a month rather than spreading them out. (Like they did the Dollanganger series)

[CountryGirl]

18 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

So other than this series being the clear favorite, I think I liked the Casteel series best. The hair coloring was all wrong for everyone, but there were some kick ass moments. I much prefer when they do one movie a week for a month rather than spreading them out. (Like the did the Dollanganger series)

I loved the Casteel one the best as well (after this one, of course). I even hand-waved everyone's hair color being off, except Fanny's, I think. Although I had supreme disappointment that the actor playing Troy wasn't nearly hot enough and wasn't charismatic enough to make up for the lack of hotness. 

[TattleTeeny]

I just wish My Sweet Audrina had been done better! 

[Scarlett45]

3 minutes ago, TattleTeeny said:

I just wish My Sweet Audrina had been done better! 

I have not seen that one. Was debating getting LMN to watch it. 

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

So other than this series being the clear favorite, I think I liked the Casteel series best. The hair coloring was all wrong for everyone, but there were some kick ass moments. I much prefer when they do one movie a week for a month rather than spreading them out. (Like they did the Dollanganger series)

It was a great series. The hair was annoying because it was a big plot point and all they need to do was buy a wig. But my main disappointment is not showing Fanny's greastest moment when she comes to Annie's rescue from Tony. That was such a great moment. But all the other kick ass moments were awesome. I liked Heaven calling Tony out for molesting her mother. Leigh calling out her mother. Heaven and Cathy are my favorite VC Andrew heroines. 

[andromeda331]

6 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Yes. Given VC Andrews is kind of “gothic horror” it makes sense. It is not surprising that after decades of abuse and mistreatment from Malcolm, with her kids being her only “bright spot”, after they were gone her heart was poisoned. It would’ve taken a lot of self awareness and fortitude to turn her heart toward’s Nella’s way of living. But although Nella suffered abuse and mistreatment she did have a circle of people that loved her, and a community to offer her emotional support through that. Olivia just had her kids- Mal died tragically, Joel had to leave to save his life, and Corinne ran off with Christopher. “Starting over” is a lot easier emotionally at 20 something than at 50 something. 

That's true Nella was really her only support system she had while Nella had others. That's why John Amos was able to maniuplate her so well. I really thought we would get the reveal that John Amos was stealing Joel's letters which was why she didn't hear from him much and to keep her isolated. 

[StaceyNotStacie]

Aren’t they doing a series on the Cutler books?  That should give us something to talk about. 

2 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I really thought we would get the reveal that John Amos was stealing Joel's letters which was why she didn't hear from him much and to keep her isolated. 

That would have been an interesting plot twist

[CountryGirl]

5 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I have not seen that one. Was debating getting LMN to watch it. 

I haven't seen it either. I guess I have to turn over my VC Andrews badge. 

4 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

It was a great series. The hair was annoying because it was a big plot point and all they need to do was buy a wig. But my main disappointment is not showing Fanny's greastest moment when she comes to Annie's rescue from Tony. That was such a great moment. But all the other kick ass moments were awesome. I liked Heaven calling Tony out for molesting her mother. Leigh calling out her mother. Heaven and Cathy are my favorite VC Andrew heroines. 

YASSS!

Such a wasted opportunity for Fanny, who was walking trouble, but you'd want on your side. I have a feeling if it had been up to Luke, Annie would still be held prisoner in Farthy. 

Fanny calling Tony "loco" and kicking ass are the main reasons to read TGoP as the rest, even Heaven and Logan's death, are a damn snoozefest.

[CountryGirl]

4 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

That's true Nella was really her only support system she had while Nella had others. That's why John Amos was able to maniuplate her so well. I really thought we would get the reveal that John Amos was stealing Joel's letters which was why she didn't hear from him much and to keep her isolated. 

Now, that would have been a great twist and helped provide another piece of the puzzle as to why Olivia became The Grandmother.

Back to MSA: Do we really want to watch the reveal that Arden was the boy who watched Audrina be gang-raped, Arden cheating with Vera, Arden having sex with Audrina on her empty grave?

Although Arden was the woooorrrrsssttt.

[Kiki777]

38 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

Now, that would have been a great twist and helped provide another piece of the puzzle as to why Olivia became The Grandmother.

Back to MSA: Do we really want to watch the reveal that Arden was the boy who watched Audrina be gang-raped, Arden cheating with Vera, Arden having sex with Audrina on her empty grave?

Although Arden was the woooorrrrsssttt.

Did y’all read the sequel?  Because Arden was the worstest worst that ever worsted, in that one...

[CountryGirl]

2 hours ago, Kiki777 said:

Did y’all read the sequel?  Because Arden was the worstest worst that ever worsted, in that one...

I have not. I’ve steered clear of sequels or prequels not part of the original quintets. 

So no crap with Cory being alive or horny teens playacting Cathy and Chris in the attic or Corinne Sr being abused by obsessed-with-his-mother Garland. Not that the original stories were Tolstoy but they had something that kept all of us reading and watching these shows how many years later and it’s bad enough VCA’s estate holders couldn’t let well enough alone and had to keep using her name to churn out ridiculousness - the aforementioned spin-off books worst of all. 

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, CountryGirl said:

I have not. I’ve steered clear of sequels or prequels not part of the original quintets. 

So no crap with Cory being alive or horny teens playacting Cathy and Chris in the attic or Corinne Sr being abused by obsessed-with-his-mother Garland. Not that the original stories were Tolstoy but they had something that kept all of us reading and watching these shows how many years later and it’s bad enough VCA’s estate holders couldn’t let well enough alone and had to keep using her name to churn out ridiculousness - the aforementioned spin-off books worst of all. 

I'm still amazed the crap they put out as "sequels" for Dollenganger and My Sweet Audrina. There was so much left for sequels and prequals to Flowers in the Attic. There was the potential for Cathy's grandchildren to be messed up after SOY especially if Bart had any. It would have been great to read about what happened with the First Corrine and also previous Foxworths. Malcolm wouldn't be the only psycho/crazy one of the family. But instead went with crap, especially with Cory being still alive. There's no way. Cory's murder is what finally got Christopher to realized they had to get out of there. It's what made Cathy want revenge on her mother and grandmother. It's why poor Carrie was so messed up and in the end deciding to commit suicide the same way, and get Cathy to finally go after Corrine and Olivia. 

Unless MSA sequel ended with Damian's and Arden's violent murder by Sylvia or Audrina and Audrina and Sylvia have a great life. I wasn't interested 

Edited August 4, 2022 by andromeda331