Davina & Sean

[Bella]

Talk about Davina and Sean separately or together here.

[sleekandchic]

I believe Italians are white also.

 

I don't believe Davina "hates" her culture and/or background. She's not connected to it. I can't fault her for it--I know a lot of people who don't feel especially connected to their ethnic background. shrug. To me its just different strokes.

I am bringing this over from the Season 2/Episode 3 thread.

I agree with Pepper Mostly and don't interpret Davina' s preferences as signs of self-hatred. She strikes me as a sensitive woman, with a mind of her own. I think she's also exhibiting a type of courage and iron-will in standing up to her mom's objections and refusal to attend the wedding.

I hope Sean and Davina dont get an edit that mentions their childhood-bullying every episode. I don't like when the experts focus on one hook, then beat it to death all season long and into perpetuity (see Jamie!).

[roamyn]

On another board, a supposed ex-girlfriend of Sean's posted that he's a habitual liar and offered proof of that as his refusal to believe he snored.

I had to crack up! Most people don't no that they snore unless told otherwise. Also, he admitted that he'd never lived with anyone, so he acknowledged it might be true.

I'm a horrible snorer, but I didn't no that until my now husband & I moved in together before our wedding. Even then I thought he was exaggerating until I was a chaperone on a youth retreat and the woman I shared a bed with told me abt my snoring.

[Bella]

I don't know why people insist that they don't snore. How would they know whether they do or not - they're asleep! That was another thing that bugged me about Sean. Why would Davina make up something like that?

 

When I was told that I breathe loudly when I'm asleep (but apparently it's not a snoring sound), I wanted to know how loudly and if it sounded like I was gasping for air.

[ElectricCityy]

I really like that Davina wants to wait till they fall in love to have sex. Make him work for it. She knows what she's doing.

[shopper73]

That must be so bizarre to watch the show with Sean as ex! Maybe he plays the victim and doesn't like to take any personal responsibility. Maybe he does lie!

[davetheman]

Already posted in the other thread, but I find it hard to understand how people can claim what Davina is doing and saying isn't a textbook of self hate.

[roamyn]

That must be so bizarre to watch the show with Sean as ex! Maybe he plays the victim and doesn't like to take any personal responsibility. Maybe he does lie!

i seriously doubt the poster. She also claims that she saw Sean out w/a blonde woman so he was cheating,

If true, that could've been a family member a coworker a sales person. I seriously doubt he would break the contract w/A&E by going on a date b4 the end of the show.

Edited April 5, 2015 by roamyn

[Gigi43]

If the experts picked out an Indian man for Davina and said to her "he has the personal qualities you want, he even had a very similar upbringing as you, ect", I'm convinced that she wouldn't go through with it because he's Indian. She seems like she's lumping every Indian man to be like her father, and the negative Indian people that may have judged her family to represent all Indian people in her mind. " White" isn't a culture, different ethnicities can have their own way of acting, yet in her head it seems like its just "white is better than Indicated." Some men leave their family, some people can be judgmental, period and those people do not represent all people of their ethnicity, religion, whatever. If Davina was talking about physically she finds white men attractive, hey everyone has a type superficially but its deeper than that with her. White is just "better" and that's where the self hate, extra baggage, view I have of her comes from.

Sean... Okay being bullied can shape who you grow up to be, but I don't find it healthy to let it define you the way he does. I really want to know what he was like to the hotel staff. It seems like he went overboard but I want to know just how bad. He was quick to bring up the bullying to Davina to "explain" his mission to be "assertive", but I saw it as him looking to have his behavior excused. He does not have a right to over react to people because he was bullied as a kid! If in fact that is something he does a lot (too early to know for a fact he does it a lot) then he needs to learn how to stop. The hotel staff didn't bully Sean, they got accused of committing a crime that wasn't even committed at all, so no his past does not excuse it at all.

I feel like the " experts " put these two together because they both have baggage and think that a marriage will take it all away or something... Which I don't see how that can happen. The first episode I called them being a depressing couple, the 2nd ep I thought they maybe had it in them to prove me wrong, but this last one has me even more convinced that the season for them will be constantly bringing up their issues but not doing much in terms on really working on them.

[shopper73]

So true, Gigi, marriage is not therapy!

[sleekandchic]

Did anyone happen to notice if there were any Indian men in the applicant pool during the Matchmaking episode? I did not see any Indian men but I might have missed some people.

If not, then of course the experts would latch on to Davina' s desire for a white guy. And God help us if she wanted an Indian and there was only one in the pool! Cause -- just like Monet and Vaughn -- I'm sure the experts would have forced an incompatible match based on color.

[roamyn]

Not true, sleek. They had one African American guy they really liked, but felt all the AA women that made it through the scanning were too career advanced for him.

I'm a short woman. I'm attracted to tall meb. Is that self-hatred for being short? Do I hate short men? No. That's what I'm attracted to.

Attractions have no scientific basis. They can't always be explained. How we are raised & our experiences help shaoe those attractions. But just because one person says they only date such & such men/women does not mean they harbor self hatred. In my mind, there's no way Davina could be such a self-assured, successful woman if she hated her identity.

Now, being against Eastern religions is different. She's seen first hand how destructive & repressivd that can be to her. [/]

And I really doubt that Sean could be in a field like nursing if he was aggressive. Not to mention, passing all the psychological testing. All his friends on FB say he's a very warm & nurturing guy.

IT'S A REALITY SHOW, PEOPLE! Many parts are scripted for drama

[davetheman]

Did anyone happen to notice if there were any Indian men in the applicant pool during the Matchmaking episode? I did not see any Indian men but I might have missed some people.

If not, then of course the experts would latch on to Davina' s desire for a white guy. And God help us if she wanted an Indian and there was only one in the pool! Cause -- just like Monet and Vaughn -- I'm sure the experts would have forced an incompatible match based on color.

 

She said specifically that an indian man was not acceptable at all for her. She ONLY DATES WHITE.

[Jellybeans]

Well, I am deaf. Most deaf people only date other deaf people. "Deaf culture" ASL, and deaf schools.

I won't date a deaf man. I will only date hearing men. I understand why Davina only wants to date Caucasian men. It comes from observing our own kind.

[davetheman]

Not true, sleek. They had one African American guy they really liked, but felt all the AA women that made it through the scanning were too career advanced for him.

I'm a short woman. I'm attracted to tall meb. Is that self-hatred for being short? Do I hate short men? No. That's what I'm attracted to.

Attractions have no scientific basis. They can't always be explained. How we are raised & our experiences help shaoe those attractions. But just because one person says they only date such & such men/women does not mean they harbor self hatred. In my mind, there's no way Davina could be such a self-assured, successful woman if she hated her identity.

Now, being against Eastern religions is different. She's seen first hand how destructive & repressivd that can be to her. [/]

And I really doubt that Sean could be in a field like nursing if he was aggressive. Not to mention, passing all the psychological testing. All his friends on FB say he's a very warm & nurturing guy.

IT'S A REALITY SHOW, PEOPLE! Many parts are scripted for drama

 

I'm sorry but you seem like you are actually offended that people are calling out Davina for being self hating minority.

 

Before we go on, I just want to know if you live in the US are you a minority or are you "white"?

I'm thinking maybe your different perspective about this might be linked to you coming from a different place in living life in the US than minorities, because I can't see anyone who is a minority expecting to be taken as a rational actor by comparing a hate for your ethnicity to their height.

Well, I am deaf. Most deaf people only date other deaf people. "Deaf culture" ASL, and deaf schools.

I won't date a deaf man. I will only date hearing men. I understand why Davina only wants to date Caucasian men. It comes from observing our own kind.

So do you believe all deaf men act one way? I'm confused by this statement.

[Bella]

It's getting a tad heated in here and I can tell that people are looking for new ways to be emphatic.

 

Instead, let's chill a bit and maybe think about agreeing to disagree. 

 

Thanks!

[Jellybeans]

So do you believe all deaf men act one way? I'm confused by this statement.

Sorry, I should have said deaf people... they tend to live in the deaf world. I understand why. But I am not wanting to live in the deaf world, I prefer the hearing world. Thus my comment.

[sleekandchic]

Not true, sleek. They had one African American guy they really liked, but felt all the AA women that made it through the scanning were too career advanced for him.

I'm a short woman. I'm attracted to tall meb. Is that self-hatred for being short? Do I hate short men? No. That's what I'm attracted to.

Attractions have no scientific basis. They can't always be explained. How we are raised & our experiences help shaoe those attractions. But just because one person says they only date such & such men/women does not mean they harbor self hatred. In my mind, there's no way Davina could be such a self-assured, successful woman if she hated her identity.

Now, being against Eastern religions is different. She's seen first hand how destructive & repressivd that can be to her. [/]

And I really doubt that Sean could be in a field like nursing if he was aggressive. Not to mention, passing all the psychological testing. All his friends on FB say he's a very warm & nurturing guy.

IT'S A REALITY SHOW, PEOPLE! Many parts are scripted for drama

Thank you, roamyn! That's what I get for multitasking during my important tv watching! :)

[davetheman]

Sorry, I should have said deaf people... they tend to live in the deaf world. I understand why. But I am not wanting to live in the deaf world, I prefer the hearing world. Thus my comment.

I get you.

I would say though that there is a difference between, disability and ethnicity/racial dynamics IMHO, atleast here in the US from what I've read.

[roamyn]

I apologize if I came off that you were wrong, Dave and those who disagree w/you were right. Emotions and all are sometimes read differently when not face to face.

Of course you are entitled to your observations and opinions. I was just trying to explain how I see it. I just don't see self-hatred in Davina.

As for my nationality. Though I'm a middle aged white woman, which in Chicago is a minority. I'm not from here, though, and will be moving far South in a few weeks.

You are correct that our upbringing makes us view things differently. And though I grew up in a very multi cultured neighborhood (Hispanic, Afican American and Indian neighbors), you probably have a different perspective of being a minority.

Though honestly I don't feel that African Americans or Hispanics can be considered minorities in some places.

[JennyMominFL]

Enculturation is an important part of who were are as people.  Culture is probably more important than ethnicity. The two are often mutually exclusive.  If she feels more thouroughly encultured as  truly American , than being in a relationship that feels like she has one foot in American Culture and one in Indian culture may not be comfortable  for her. I would be interested to see how she would feel if she met another Indian who was fully enculturized as an American. Or maybe she has been brought up encultured in both ,  but feels more comforable in one. I really don't think this is about ethnicity , but  culture.

Edited April 5, 2015 by JennyMominFL

[davetheman]

I apologize if I came off that you were wrong, Dave and those who disagree w/you were right. Emotions and all are sometimes read differently when not face to face.

Of course you are entitled to your observations and opinions. I was just trying to explain how I see it. I just don't see self-hatred in Davina.

As for my nationality. Though I'm a middle aged white woman, which in Chicago is a minority. I'm not from here, though, and will be moving far South in a few weeks.

You are correct that our upbringing makes us view things differently. And though I grew up in a very multi cultured neighborhood (Hispanic, Afican American and Indian neighbors), you probably have a different perspective of being a minority.

Though honestly I don't feel that African Americans or Hispanics can be considered minorities in some places.

 

I've grown up around the US and visited different areas in the world due to a childhood and being the child of military parents. I've mainly lived in the southern US states here and that is where I live now. Living in the north east, west coast, and south even in areas with large populations in which you may be the majority, you are always fully aware that in this country you are a minority.

 

Its something that I think it will be hard for you to grasp looking at your post. I won't try to force my opinion on you but as a minority living here, I can only give you my experience and my perception.

 

No matter where I am in the US even in pockets where its majority black, I've always known and most of us always know that we are always the minority, we simply don't exist in numbers enough to ever be anything but at the whim of those in the majority in this nation, in our states, and etc. Also again as for Davina or anyone else who prefers a person or type for whatever reason, that is on them and they can have whatever reason they want, there is a difference in having a preference and rejecting what you are, your makeup, your culture and history outright. That applies to black americans, Indian, Pakistani, Native American, Polish, Irish, etc. Just my take on it though.

Enculturation is an important part of who were are as people.  Culture is probably more important than ethnicity. The two are often mutually exclusive.  If she feels more thouroughly encultured as  truly American , than being in a relationship that feels like she has one foot in American Culture and one in Indian culture may not be comfortable  for her. I would be interested to see how she would feel if she met another Indian who was fully enculturized as an American. Or maybe she has been brought up encultured in both ,  but feels more comforable in one. I really don't think this is about ethnicity , but  culture.

 

She lives in NYC. Do you really think that it would be hard for her to find Indians who aren't fully americanized born and bred like her?

Honest question.

[charmed1]

I felt really bad for Davina. For her to say she thought of herself as white growing up means to me, that someone failed her along the way. I found that statement incredibly sad.

Husband or not, I would've been so uncomfortable if some stranger started crying in front of me in the back of a car.

Edited April 5, 2015 by charmed1

[Neurochick]

If Davina was talking about physically she finds white men attractive, hey everyone has a type superficially but its deeper than that with her. White is just "better" and that's where the self hate, extra baggage, view I have of her comes from.

 

 

If she's more comfortable with white men, for whatever reason, then so what?  She has that right.

 

If she said she preferred black men instead of Indian men, would that be the same level of self hate?  

 

Last season Monet said that Vaughn wanted a woman who looked like Alicia Keys/Paula Patton.  I don't know if he told that to the experts.  Maybe he didn't say that because he didn't want to be perceived as "self hating."  In my experience, people like who they like; sometime's that's all it is and there's nothing more to be read into it.  

Edited April 5, 2015 by Neurochick

[JennyMominFL]

I've grown up around the US and visited different areas in the world due to a childhood and being the child of military parents. I've mainly lived in the southern US states here and that is where I live now. Living in the north east, west coast, and south even in areas with large populations in which you may be the majority, you are always fully aware that in this country you are a minority.

 

Its something that I think it will be hard for you to grasp looking at your post. I won't try to force my opinion on you but as a minority living here, I can only give you my experience and my perception.

 

No matter where I am in the US even in pockets where its majority black, I've always known and most of us always know that we are always the minority, we simply don't exist in numbers enough to ever be anything but at the whim of those in the majority in this nation, in our states, and etc. Also again as for Davina or anyone else who prefers a person or type for whatever reason, that is on them and they can have whatever reason they want, there is a difference in having a preference and rejecting what you are, your makeup, your culture and history outright. That applies to black americans, Indian, Pakistani, Native American, Polish, Irish, etc. Just my take on it though.

 

She lives in NYC. Do you really think that it would be hard for her to find Indians who aren't fully americanized born and bred like her?

Honest question.

Well of course they would be easy to find if you seek them out, but  day to day contact may not happen. I'm sure you can find people of any race , culture or creed in NYC.  But even being born here does not mean you will be encultured  in the same way.

I'm not saying you are wrong in your interpretation, JFTR. You may be right.  Or it may be more compliicated that it seems.

As a student of Anthropology, I just find this topic interesting and relevent so I am into exploring all possibilities  

Edited April 5, 2015 by JennyMominFL

[molshoop]

If a "white" person has a strong preference for someone who is racially or ethnically darker skinned,

is anyone going to call them self-hating?

 

I hope I live long enough to see the day when everyone can get their human genome done cheap. 

Most of us will turn out to be Heinz 57 mutts.

[davetheman]

If a "white" person has a strong preference for someone who is racially or ethnically darker skinned,

is anyone going to call them self-hating?

 

I hope I live long enough to see the day when everyone can get their human genome done cheap. 

Most of us will turn out to be Heinz 57 mutts.

 

Already answered this but I'll go again.

If an italian, english, scottish, irish, german, swede, or etc said they didn't identify as their own ethnic background, said they did not want anyone from their own ethnic background because they felt bullied or mistreated by the background, and said they didn't event want someone who had a traditional religion associated with their ethnic background, yes they would be a self hater.

 

Some of you posters seem to think this is a anti-white thing and get defensive and miss the whole point.

If she's more comfortable with white men, for whatever reason, then so what?  She has that right.

 

If she said she preferred black men instead of Indian men, would that be the same level of self hate?  

 

Last season Monet said that Vaughn wanted a woman who looked like Alicia Keys/Paula Patton.  I don't know if he told that to the experts.  Maybe he didn't say that because he didn't want to be perceived as "self hating."  In my experience, people like who they like; sometime's that's all it is and there's nothing more to be read into it.  

If she said black instead of white it would be the same issue. I honestly don't understand how you could ask this like it makes any sense. Self hate, that she said white is pretty irrelevant to the denial and dismissal of her own heritage.

 

Alicia Keys and Paula Patton are black just like Monet and Vaughn, in the US, so I don't understand the argument you are making. It doesn't really carry.

[molshoop]

 

Some of you posters seem to think this is a anti-white thing and get defensive and miss the whole point.

 

 I was picking up a pro-white thing.  And I respectfully disagree with your definition of self-hate.

[davetheman]

 I was picking up a pro-white thing.  And I respectfully disagree with your definition of self-hate.

Hating what you are is pretty much self hate, what is your definition?

[cooksdelight]

Sorry, I should have said deaf people... they tend to live in the deaf world. I understand why. But I am not wanting to live in the deaf world, I prefer the hearing world. Thus my comment.

Not to get too off topic, but there was a very interesting Law & Order: Criminal Intent episode about the deaf community. A doctor was doing surgery for hearing implants and he was murdered because a guy didn't want his deaf girlfriend to be able to hear. He was afraid she'd leave him.

Which, in the case of this episode, the woman has a certain type of man she wants to marry due to her own experiences within her family and community.

Personal experiences of those of us posting here don't have a whole lot to do with her decision. People do what they do for a myriad of reasons. I'm not so sure Davina hates herself, I think it's more of her wanting something different from what she grew up with. Does that make sense? It does to me.

[MsPH]

Already answered this but I'll go again.

If an italian, english, scottish, irish, german, swede, or etc said they didn't identify as their own ethnic background, said they did not want anyone from their own ethnic background because they felt bullied or mistreated by the background, and said they didn't event want someone who had a traditional religion associated with their ethnic background, yes they would be a self hater.

 

Some of you posters seem to think this is a anti-white thing and get defensive and miss the whole point.

 

I still don't see what's self-hating about not wanting to marry into a certain culture or religion, if you yourself don't identify with it. Screw ethnicity. Seriously. That's just a useless thing to base your identity on, IMO. Reeks of nationalism and racism to me. Davina clearly knows both Indian and non-Indian culture and happens to prefer and connect more with non-Indian culture. Yes, she might find an Indian man who is as Americanized as her, but when you marry someone, you don't just marry then, you get in-laws as well. This is especially true in Indian culture, where family is everything. What are the chances of the man's parents being totally Americanized as well? Pretty low, I'd say. Of course it's possible, but since Davina isn't specifically attracted to Indian men, she has no reason to seek them out. So she doesn't want to have an all Indian family. What exactly is the problem with that? I just fail to see it. Now if she were to prevent her future kids from having any contact with Indian culture or their roots, then that would be a problem. However, she herself is an adult woman and can choose who she dates and marries just like anyone else without being called a racist or a self-hater. We all have the right to choose what we want to surround ourselves with for the rest of our lives.

[davetheman]

I still don't see what's self-hating about not wanting to marry into a certain culture or religion, if you yourself don't identify with it. Screw ethnicity. Seriously. That's just a useless thing to base your identity on, IMO. Reeks of nationalism and racism to me. Davina clearly knows both Indian and non-Indian culture and happens to prefer and connect more with non-Indian culture. Yes, she might find an Indian man who is as Americanized as her, but when you marry someone, you don't just marry then, you get in-laws as well. This is especially true in Indian culture, where family is everything. What are the chances of the man's parents being totally Americanized as well? Pretty low, I'd say. Of course it's possible, but since Davina isn't specifically attracted to Indian men, she has no reason to seek them out. So she doesn't want to have an all Indian family. What exactly is the problem with that? I just fail to see it. Now if she were to prevent her future kids from having any contact with Indian culture or their roots, then that would be a problem. However, she herself is an adult woman and can choose who she dates and marries just like anyone else without being called a racist or a self-hater. We all have the right to choose what we want to surround ourselves with for the rest of our lives.

Davina isn't choosing to not marry someone who is of traditional indian culture.

She didn't say I don't want a indian man of traditional culture

She said she doesn't date indian men. She only dates white men.

She then said she identifies herself as white.

On top of that she said she doesn't want anyone of eastern religion orientation.

 

All these things in totality, especially the identification as white shows that she doesn't like what she is and is actively trying to disassociate herself not just from her culture but her own ethnicity and that is a clear sign that she hates herself.

 

I've said it before and I really don't understand how it isn't getting through, but I'll do it one more time. She isn't voicing a preference for what she likes, she is actively running away and trying to disassociate herself from what she is.

 

There are millions of american of Indian descent who are completely westernized just like her, she isn't special in any regard whatsoever in being a modern american female. So the line of convo that goes she just is rejecting traditional indian culture in saying she only dates white men is off target. The saying that oh she just likes white men, "i like short men, i like fat men, _____" is also off base, it isn't about what she likes it again about what she actively dislikes and shuns about herself. The same way it would be absurd for a black female american to say oh I only date white men, because I was bullied by black people growing up, and now I identify myself as being white, its equally absurd to here Davina say it. It simply delusional with regard to any minority who lives in US society, especially for her when she even said how she felt she was bullied by white people because they called her hindu and pointed out as a child that she was not like them.

 

Like I said before these are red flags regarding her mental health and suitability for this experiment and it seems to be they dropped the ball. This is a case where having extra marriage counselors and screeners of different backgrounds would come in handy because this is textbook stuff right here because its obvious that to some in the majority, it seems almost mysterous to how anyone could not want to be "white", to the point that you keep talking about points that are already taken off the table when discussing what she has actually said.

 

As for kids, I would pray to God that it doesn't come to her having kids before this situation is resolved because based on what she has said its already clear culturally how she is going to be with her kids. Heaven help her child/ren if one comes out with heavy european features and the other with more of the indian features and skin tone and how she would treat them knowing that she wants to be white and identifies as being white.

[cooksdelight]

I've said it before and I really don't understand how it isn't getting through, but I'll do it one more time.

This is what is called beating the dead horse, not gonna change anyone's mind.... move along, nothing to see here.....

State your case once....move on to a different subject. Thanks so much!!

[davetheman]

This is what is called beating the dead horse, not gonna change anyone's mind.... move along, nothing to see here.....

State your case once....move on to a different subject. Thanks so much!!

I'm sorry this is a forum and I thought I was having a nice and cordial discussion.

No one is really flaming each other, is there a problem?

[cooksdelight]

When you repeat your opinion, more than once, and say things like how you don't understand why no one is getting your point... it might be time to find a new topic to talk about.

[davetheman]

When you repeat your opinion, more than once, and say things like how you don't understand why no one is getting your point... it might be time to find a new topic to talk about.

Shouldn't that be up to the people involved in the conversation.

I mean if no one is flmaing or being disrespectful how is discussion a problem on a forum.

[Neurochick]

Alicia Keys and Paula Patton are black just like Monet and Vaughn, in the US, so I don't understand the argument you are making. It doesn't really carry.

 

 

Yes, they are black, but Monet's point was that Vaughn wanted to be with a lighter skinned woman.  

 

Some people consider it self hate if a dark skinned man or woman, wanted to be with a lighter skinned man or woman, because they're saying they don't want to be with someone who looks like them.  

 

I think time will tell if Davina hates herself.

[Stinamaia]

I think labeling Davina as self-hating is rather harsh. I have a good friend who grew up in India, but who was educated in the U.S. She embraces the U.S. Culture more than the Indian culture mainly because of women's rights. She also mainly dates men of European ancestry although she has had an Indian boyfriend. Most of her friends are of European descent. Now, given this, one might label her as self-hating on this board. However, she is proud to be a brown skinned woman. She does not straighten her hair because she wants it to be natural. She loves the folklore of the Hindu religion. She does consider Indians as a different race than Europeans. She considers herself as South Indian and in a broader context, as South Asian. She would be infuriated to be labeled self-hating.

I suppose it may be something within me, but it's upsetting to see that someone who doesn't accept the values or society of the people with whom they were raised, not as being someone who has made one's own life decisions, but as self hating. I grew up with religious, politically conservative people. In my adult life, I am politically liberal and non-religious. I love and respect the people who raised me, but I have chosen for myself the portions of their training and values I carry into my own life.

Davina is attempting to explain to strangers the reasons she is not connected to her Sikh religion and culture. Most of us don't even know what that culture entails, so I think it is difficult to for most of us to grasp given the sound bite nature of TV. I know I don't fully understand it. It would take getting to know Davina more in depth. Even when one hates the culture in which they were raised, they aren't necessarily self hating. I've read books by women who suffered genital mutilation because of their parents' culture. They hate that culture, but perhaps rejecting that culture means they love themselves more. I don't know. It just seems a very harsh judgment to place on someone to me. Perhaps it isn't meant as harshly as I take it.

[MsPH]

Good post, Stinamaia! I detest the idea that everyone should be proud of the culture they were born into regardless of whether or not they themselves feel they can accept all the aspects and practices of said culture. If someone truly loves their native culture then good for them, but most people have the ability to question things and everyone has the right to choose what they are accepting of. It's not self-hate to me, it's being rational and analytical. And no, this isn't about thinking any certain culture or race is superior. It's about everyone having the right to choose what's right for them regardless of their skin colour or genes. I would hate to be a Somalian woman who's escaped mutilation and be told I hate myself if I don't want to marry a Somalian man. Not saying Davina's case is that extreme, but the point is that cultures don't evolve unless people question them and horrible practices don't cease to exist if everyone's blindly proud of their own culture.

 

Davina seems to me like a very confident successful woman who is willing to take risks despite her family's disapproval. I fail to see why she's in need of therapy just because she wants to be integrated into a majority rather than living the rest of her life in a small minority she doesn't feel connected to and has bad experiences with. She's not bleaching her hair or changing her name to appear white. She's not trying to be white (like say Michael Jackson). She just feels like her core values and thoughts are more Caucasian than Indian and that seems to be the case based on everything she's said and done so far. So she wants a man and in-laws whose values align with hers and thinks she has a better shot with white men in the regard. It's up to her as far as I'm concerned.

 

I saw much more self-hate in Jamie last season with her trailer park past, but I understood her as well. It wasn't just about the trailer park, it was about her experiences there having lived with a drug addicted mother and various dodgy stepfathers. Much like her, Davina has a reason to dislike her background. It's not some irrational dislike born out of self-hate or white people worship. And yes, I think it is a cultural matter rather than ethnic, because she's not trying to appear white.

[JenE4]

Davina and Sean are both 100% bought into the fairy tale. I think it's interesting that everyone else has at least a bit of reservations, but these two are just all googoo-eyed over the signs of fate, such as the lock/key metaphor. I think it helps that they're both attractive people, so that immediate physical attraction helps bolster their "love at first sight" narrative. But I think it was a bit much how they were immediately making out at the alter, on the dance floor, etc. I would be less weirded out by a one-night-stand situation--you meet someone you think is hot, hey, go for it, if you want. But at least in that situation the parties involved would be aware that it's LUST with a stranger. This just creeped me out a bit how they seem to think they are in LOVE with each other. For their sake, I hope love does develop, but my initial reaction to them is, Hey, Romeo and Juliet, turn it down a notch! The whole lock and key thing in which they were all gaga over their fated love reminded me of a couple of teenagers who have so much in common and are meant to be because they happened to reblog the same posts on Tumblr and like the same bands. Tru luv 4eva!

[Stinamaia]

as someone from the subcontinent, Davina comes across as super confused. she basically says that because of the experience she had with the community, she doesn't want to be part of it and yet, she chooses to participate in what is essentially an arranged marriage??????? that makes no sense. if she wanted arranged marriage, there are lots of websites and matchmaker aunties and yes, there are western men also who signed up on these websites.

I don't understand any of these people. Personally, I think arranged marriages can be good, but it seems odd for young people in the U.S. who have grown up with the ideal of romantic love and soul mates. I could see how Davina might be more open to it, but as you point out, it is seemingly paradoxical. I think sometimes I underestimate how much people want to be on TV, because I can't fathom wanting my private life on TV.

[sleekandchic]

There's actually another FYI show premiering on April 14. It's called "Arranged."

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2015/03/10/fyi-says-i-do-to-new-original-docuseries-arranged-tuesday-april-14th/373474/

[Bella]

There's actually another FYI show premiering on April 14. It's called "Arranged."

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2015/03/10/fyi-says-i-do-to-new-original-docuseries-arranged-tuesday-april-14th/373474/

 

And if someone will visit the New Show Requests Forum, we can have a place to discuss it. 

[cerealboxkilla]

Sorry, I'm just not seeing Davina's shunning of her culture as a preference. From the way she describes her childhood, you can tell she experienced a lot of traumatic events based on her race. She was bullied by white children, had an abusive Indian father, and probably felt alienated by all cultures. I can see her growing up wishing she was like everyone else, and thus her "preference" makes sense. Most people who are the children of first or second generation immigrants don't embrace their culture, but they don't seem to have the baggage Davina has. I can't imagine a Chinese person telling me, "My Chinese father was a monster so I consider myself white now." Like, what?

[Snarklepuss]

If an italian, english, scottish, irish, german, swede, or etc said they didn't identify as their own ethnic background, said they did not want anyone from their own ethnic background because they felt bullied or mistreated by the background, and said they didn't event want someone who had a traditional religion associated with their ethnic background, yes they would be a self hater.

 

I respectfully disagree.  I am half Italian on my mother's side.  Both my mother and I did not find ourselves attracted to men of Italian descent who were of the traditional Italian American culture.  Then again, we were not "typical" Italian Americans of the traditional culture.  We were not Roman Catholics, but Episcopalians.  My mother's great grandmother converted and the rest of her family followed.  My mother was an original "Women's Libber" who read Betty Friedan and we both found that Italian American men of our generations expected women to be too traditional for us.  Even the ones I dated who seemed really progressive turned out to have some version of the madonna/whore complex with all the attendant sexual hang ups, etc., and I just felt I was worth more than to be seen in those terms.   I don't think it is self hatred for us to not want a man of this culture because WE are not of that culture ourselves.  In fact, I think it would be more evidence of self hatred if we DID want a man like this. 

 

Davina is not of a traditional Indian cultural background.  There are similarities.  Many traditional Indian men are very male chauvanist in ways very modern, Americanized women could not live with.  Think about it, how many American women, who are completely Americanized and progressive in their attitudes toward male/female roles in relationships, do you find married to traditional Indian men?  I would suspect the number would be around zero.  To put an even finer point on it, by far most men of traditional Indian culture would not want a woman like Davina because she is too "liberated" for them. 

 

Now they could have tried to find an Indian man who was more Americanized and progressive in his attitudes, and it may not have been completely impossible, but if someone has baggage from their past the experts' role is not to try to force them into dealing with it.  It could be very negative for someone like Davina to be forced into doing something she is not ready for.  It might take years of therapy for her to get past her baggage enough to consider a progressive man of Indian descent, and who has that kind of time to wait before they get married?  We have to accept some flaws about ourselves and work around them.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Snarklepuss

[davetheman]

I respectfully disagree.  I am half Italian on my mother's side.  Both my mother and I did not find ourselves attracted to men of Italian descent who were of the traditional Italian American culture.  Then again, we were not "typical" Italian Americans of the traditional culture.  We were not Roman Catholics, but Episcopalians.  My mother's great grandmother converted and the rest of her family followed.  My mother was an original "Women's Libber" who read Betty Friedan and we both found that Italian American men of our generations expected women to be too traditional for us.  Even the ones I dated who seemed really progressive turned out to have some version of the madonna/whore complex with all the attendant sexual hang ups, etc., and I just felt I was worth more than to be seen in those terms.   I don't think it is self hatred for us to not want a man of this culture because WE are not of that culture ourselves.  In fact, I think it would be more evidence of self hatred if we DID want a man like this. 

 

Davina is not of a traditional Indian cultural background.  There are similarities.  Many traditional Indian men are very male chauvanist in ways very modern, Americanized women could not live with.  Think about it, how many American women, who are completely Americanized and progressive in their attitudes toward male/female roles in relationships, do you find married to traditional Indian men?  I would suspect the number would be around zero.  To put an even finer point on it, by far most men of traditional Indian culture would not want a woman like Davina because she is too "liberated" for them. 

 

Now they could have tried to find an Indian man who was more Americanized and progressive in his attitudes, and it may not have been completely impossible, but if someone has baggage from their past the experts' role is not to try to force them into dealing with it.  It could be very negative for someone like Davina to be forced into doing something she is not ready for.  It might take years of therapy for her to get past her baggage enough to consider a progressive man of Indian descent, and who has that kind of time to wait before they get married?  We have to accept some flaws about ourselves and work around them.

 

You and your mom haven't gone on tv, told us you don't identify as your own ethnic group, but that you identify as a ethnic group or social group you aren't a part of and pretty much gone out of your way to not be associated and shun your own ethnic group and your own history and culture and etc. I never said it was self hatred to have a preference for someone out of your culture. I've said that the self hatred is hating what you are, Davina seems to clearly be over the line of preferring white men but hating her own ethnic group because of the treatment that some members of it put her through when she was younger. It weird because as someone pointed out to earlier, she clings to a group that she admitted also bullied her when she was younger and ostracized her because she was different, ie white americans.

 

No one has said Davina needs to marry a traditional indian man. Saying Davina is a self hater has nothing to do with her acceptance or love of traditional indian culture. Millions of Americans of indian descent are just like her, she isn't special or different at all in that context, so acting like it would be hard to find americans of indian descent like her in the US as a whole or in NYC is weird to me.

 

The show finding Davina a man of indian descent isn't the point though and no one is saying they should have tried to. She doesn't want to even consider indian men, she only wanted white men, period, it was her dealbreaker comment about a pairing. The issue that some of us see is how this didn't raise red flags from the "experts"

Edited April 7, 2015 by aethera

[MsPH]

There are only 2.8 million Americans of Indian ancestry, so saying there are millions of fully Americanized Indians is a bit of an overstatement. It's also likely that most of those with western values are women, because it's usually the representatives of the gender in a better position that cling to old traditions (AKA men). In addition to that, there are more than 2,000 ethnic groups in India and countless different religions, so it's not like you can pair up any two Indians and expect them to have the same ethnicity and religion. A bunch of white Americans doing the matching seems like a potential minefield.

 

From what I remember, Davina said she's only dated Caucasian men, both Jews and Christians, and is attracted to men who are tall, dark and handsome. She also said she would shy away from any eastern religions, which I find reasonable, since she doesn't practice them herself. It did make me raise an eyebrow the first time she said it, but I don't think it's a matter of hating every single Indian man. Her requirements for a mate are just likelier to be found in Caucasian men. I'm sure there are some Indian men with values as western as hers, but they are few and far between compared to western men with western values. They are the majority after all. I simply fail to see what bit of extra his Indian ethnicity would bring to the table, when she wants him to be fully Americanized on the inside. Seems a bit racist to me to expect people to marry within their own "race" simply for the sake of it. What is the difference between and fully Americanized Indian and a white American except one has Indian ancestors and the other is a lot easier to find?

 

I also think there's a difference between being bullied by ignorant white kids with racist parents in a small town and being shunned by your own people due to things that are out of your control. The former is ignorance and racism and present in all cultures to a certain extent, because it's based on an innate human trait. The latter is cultural and speaks of values that are hard to stomach for a liberal western woman.

Edited April 7, 2015 by MsPH

[Snarklepuss]

I totally agree with MsPH.  I don't think it's self hatred not to want to marry someone of a faith that you yourself don't belong to just because others of your race or ethnicity belong to it.  Would it be self hatred for me not to want to marry a man of the Catholic faith just because most Italians are Catholic?  No, especially because I I was not brought up Catholic.  Davina's preferences confirm who she feels SHE is, not someone people think she should be based on her race.  THAT would be racist.  And yes, my bringing myself into the discussion by way of example is relevant because there is a strong point of comparison between me and Davina and her preferences.  Only in my case it was male chauvanist Italian relatives and boyfriends who turned me off to a relationship with men of Italian descent, not bullies who put me down for being different.

 

I have worked extensively with people of East Indian descent and most of them with a few rare exceptions have not been fully Americanized.  I think we are going to see more Americanized Indians in coming generations, though, as they have children that are born here in the U.S. that are reaching adulthood right about now.  I think it would be rather hard to find an Indian man in her age bracket that fully complemented Davina, and I have known some wonderful Indian men, just not ones that I think she would match with on a religious or relationship role level.  I think her stated preference for a white guy was not so much about hating Indian men in any racist sense but about knowing what works and doesn't work for HER.  Same goes for me.  I don't hate Italian American men, I just don't feel they work for me based on religious and values differences.  I don't see why not preferring them for a relationship automatically means hatred.  It doesn't. 

 

I think people have to have preferences that complement their own and there's nothing racist or hateful about it.  You'd better have those preferences or you'll end up with someone that doesn't match well with you.  I also think that if you're going to enter a TV show like this where others are picking your mate for you, you'd better give them some things to steer clear of that you know might be too difficult for them to find, even if you might be open to it.  Better safe than sorry.  Like I would not insist on them finding a guy that was the exact Heinz 57 ethnic mix that I am because even if they did, he might not be a good match for me in other ways.  I don't think Davina made the wrong choice in specifying that preference because if they had found an Americanized Indian for her he may have matched with her in that way and not in other more important ways.  I think the experts might have agreed with that and told her they would probably be able to find a better match for her because of her preference for white men and how there are more of them around that might match well with her.  I don't think they saw anything wrong with it any more than they would see something wrong with a white man who said he really wanted an Asian wife because he grew up in Asia and felt more comfortable with Asian culture and values.  I mean, duh why would that be so hard to understand?

 

I also don't think Davina is clinging to a culture that put her down in the white race.  The culture didn't put her down - a few rotten apples did.  If she is not racist she takes people individually.  If I were racist I might hate all Jews because of the few who bullied me when I was a kid (I grew up as a Christian in a Jewish neighborhood) but I don't because I know everyone is different and I didn't lump all Jewish people together with the few who bullied me for not being a Jew, calling me a "Picklepissie" because they couldn't pronounce "Episcopalian".  And BTW, my mother is dead.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Snarklepuss

[davetheman]

Two creepy people.

Davina is the worst type of woman. Hyper-sensitive about perceived slights, constant seeking of praise for her and her mother, off the wall emotionally, and in general just seems like a person who needs intense and longterm therapy.

 

Sean seems to have no sense of decency with the overwhelming sex talk, he seems cheesy as hell, still think this dude is a little light in the loafers, on top of being equally as narcassitic as Davina.

 

Two crazy messed up people in a relationship. I give them 0% chance at surviving past 3 years if they even make it to the end of this season.

[sleekandchic]

After the "Honeymoons" episode, I'm thinking something's off with Sean. He doesn't seem quite right to me.

Paired with Davina's hypersensitivity, this couple is gonna implode. D looks absolutely miserable to me.

I wonder if Sean's mom was so against this marriage thing, and looked so extremely worried, because of reasons we the audience couldn't imagine?

Great job this year, experts! Jeez.