S03.E10: Stingers

[RedHawk]

So many little things I see on re-watch: Henry's game has the TANDY logo. It's from "Radio Shack: A Tandy Company" as the ad used to say (or something like that, I don't quite remember). Looking at the company history I found this: "1983: The Company introduces the "Model 100" laptop, the first of its kind in the computer industry." (Funny that today "The Shack" is something of a joke and no one can believe it is still in business.) I wonder if Henry will turn into a computer nerd. Philip has shown interest in computer technology; he was shown reading the charter issue of PC magazine in a previous episode. 

 

Am I really so unobservant (heh) that just with this episode I realized that the Beeman and Jennings houses are the same floorplan? I guess I picked up on it subconsciously, and of course I noticed they are in a cookie-cutter suburban setting where the houses look alike. This time when Henry went to Stan's house I was very aware of it, noticed the contrast of his chaos with the Jennings' basic order.

 

Finally, why did Stan go over to the Jennings house that first time, when Henry was there alone? Was it just as Elizabeth suggested, to get a meal and some company, or did he have another motive? He seemed to be having a look around while chatting with Henry.

Edited April 4, 2015 by RedHawk

[BetyBee]

If P & E are thinking, they should realize that Pastor Tim already knows too much about them since he and Paige have clearly discussed the oddities in the Jennings' lives.  It's possible that they will conclude that he has to die.  Paige's life choices have become very limited.  Nothing in their lives will ever be the same.  This was really a pivotal episode.

[sistermagpie]

As far as we know, Paige told him for months that she wants to be baptized, but can't bring it up to her militant atheistic parents.

 

 

I can't believe she'd present them that way. They've allowed her to do all the church things she wanted except the 3 month camp. I think she just wanted to avoid any kind of scene/discussion about it. Her parents would have to be more polite about it in his presence. He seems to approach Philip as if he's a grumpy nonbeliever not ready to open his heart and make himself happy rather than someone with a specific grudge against the church or a militant atheist. They seem to have avoided laying out their lack of belief.

 

I'm confused. Did Paige start going to Tim's church because of the girl on the bus, or how? Didn't she at first try to call that girl and talk about what her parents had just revealed? I need to rewatch... Why don't we ever see that girl at the church?)

 

 

We saw her ask Kelly if she wanted to hang out, then a couple of days later Kelly brought her to her youth group. We haven't seen Kelly there since, but we rarely see the group and Kelly could have moved on or not been as interested in the political stuff.

 

I hope Paige is not as afraid of Communist and The Soviet Union as I was when I was younger.  In the 1970's I was subjected to a very disturbing film that was played in a church about the horrors of communism.  It was totally inappropriate for children.

 

 

I think her parents would have modeled a very calm reaction to the Soviet Union. I wouldn't be surprised if Henry was enthusiastic about cosmonauts, for instance, and admired the hockey team or whatever. Elizabeth would always stick in a positive note about them when possibly, probably talk down any real OTT stuff.

 

Philip was making a joke/pun. Observant as in "observing the scriptures". (Dictionary definition: 1) quick to notice things 2) adhering strictly to the rules of a particular religion.)

 

 

Also the last time Stan was over there for dinner Stan mentioned the baptism, iirc, so he knew it was something Stan would know about Paige, forming a little continuity.

[RedHawk]

So when P&E were scoping out the hotel in Crystal City, as they sat there looking dourly at the front desk personnel, Philip said that a shift change would be coming up and "Maybe it will be a woman." The guy at the front desk is bald, with glasses, basically older and unattractive. Then the new manager comes in and it's a young man who is attractive. Philip looks resigned, Elizabeth sighs and says she'll go check in. 

 

Are they both showing reluctance to doing a honeytrap? It seemed that way to me. It looked like Philip felt concern and sympathy for Elizabeth possibly having to have sex with the unattractive manager, or any  (other) man actually. He also doesn't seem at all into the idea of sex with yet another mark, but he'd prefer to do it so Elizabeth won't have to. Elizabeth seems uncomfortable and tired, yet snaps herself into character as she stands up. Even as she's going through the flirtation when she has manager Neal in the room with her, she seems so not into it. He doesn't get it of course, but we viewers can see it. We've never seen that side of things before. Very very interesting.

Edited April 4, 2015 by RedHawk

[sistermagpie]

Are they both showing reluctance to doing a honeytrap? It seemed that way to me. It looked like Philip felt concern and sympathy for Elizabeth possibly having to have sex with the unattractive manager, or any  (other) man actually. He also doesn't seem at all into the idea of sex with yet another mark, but he'd prefer to do it so Elizabeth won't have to. Elizabeth seems uncomfortable and tired, yet snaps herself into character as she stands up. Even as she's going through the flirtation when she has manager Neal in the room with her, she seems so not into it. He doesn't get it of course, but we viewers can see it. We've never seen that side of things before. Very very interesting.

 

We have seen this before. That's why Annelise was working Yousef, that Philip tried to get Elizabeth out of it (and Elizabeth in turn took an assassination for Philip). When Philip said "This is easier for you" in Martial Eagle he meant killing, and she said "You think what I do is easy?" and it seemed he knew what she really hated doing was honeytrapping, so they tried to take the job the other hated. Elizabeth gave Brad a hand job later that season and looked grim about it. Since then she's avoided it.

 

Not that Philip enjoys them much either, I don't think. Elizabeth also doesn't much like him doing it. She's already uneasy about Martha and Kimmie.

Edited April 4, 2015 by sistermagpie

[ToastnBacon]

Wasn't there an episode recently where Phillip was remembering his sex training?

I feel sorry for Phillip when he has to do it with Martha, she kind of disgusts me. Although I do feel sorry for her in that she was duped by a spy.

I think she has already confessed or the Center had her killed.

Poor Martha.

[Boundary]

Keri Russell's outfits are absolutely perfect on this show. So many of them, usually when Elizabeth is being herself, tend to involve these silky, beautiful sighworthy blouses that just drape gorgeously on her, and in these tapestry colors (that blue blouse!). She also looked gorgeous in her hotel persona.

 

Probably my favourite alias so far (the one from two weeks ago in the truck when she shot that South African woman is probably my second). And her seduction of the hotel manager? A masterclass.

[RedheadZombie]

Does she see them as militantly atheistic, or just as casual non-believers? Somewhere in the middle?

 

I doubt they've gone full Communist "God does not exist" on her. They probably just ignored church like many adults with children do, and Paige never questioned why until she met a Christian girl who introduced her to church and faith and Pastor Tim. (I'm confused. Did Paige start going to Tim's church because of the girl on the bus, or how? Didn't she at first try to call that girl and talk about what her parents had just revealed? I need to rewatch... Why don't we ever see that girl at the church?)

 

Maybe when she was young she might have asked and been told, "Well, we're just not believers and we have other things we like to do on Sunday mornings." Nothing that was too negative, most likely. Maybe the most they ever did was talk about how bad the televangelists were: not trustworthy, leading gullible people on, taking their money to buy fancy cars and homes, etc. as there were a lot of them in that era.

 

Before the church storyline, I would have said Paige probably thinks her parents are just non-believers.  But that reaction to Paige going to church - it's one I would have gotten if, when I was Paige's age, I told my mother I wanted to convert to Satanism. They were horrified and they didn't hide it.  Top that off with Philip screaming about respecting Jesus more than him, and ripping out pages of the bible ....... militant atheists.  I think if Paige had stated her life goal was to be a teen prostitute, they would have handled it better.  They've lightened up a bit, but Paige isn't a fool.  She knows they hate it.  "Oh my God Paige, what are you reading?  Oh, Okay, it's just hard core porn.  I thought you were reading the BIBLE!"

 

And I thought it was a wonderful moment, by the way.  As quick as they are at lying and manipulating, Philip and Elizabeth had never even considered Paige would be interested in religion.  Elizabeth has always seen Paige as an extension of herself - if Elizabeth was an atheist, then Paige will be automatically.  I expected her extreme reaction.  Philip seems to be more willing to let his children be autonomous and individuals.  I was more surprised by his reaction.  Their kids are going to be the death of them.

[sistermagpie]

Philip seems to be more willing to let his children be autonomous and individuals.  I was more surprised by his reaction.  Their kids are going to be the death of them.

 

 

Philip's reaction actually was to be fine with her being her own person. When he looked angry at the church and later lost it over the Bible it wasn't because he was so upset about Paige being religious, it was because he was upset about the night before where he killed several people and Paige told him "You two never help anybody."

[millennium]

I feel like we know Paige well enough to know she's not going to be okay with her parents murdering innocent people in the name of the cause (a cause I don't think they're going to be able to convince her the importance of- I just don't see it). But now that they're into truth-telling, are they going to tell her about all the murders and affairs they're involved in on a regular basis?

 

 

 I watch Investigation Discovery and I no longer underestimate the ability of children to keep secrets.  Terrible secrets.    The reasons vary: love, fear for their own safety, fear of losing the only home they have, fear of humiliation in the eyes of their peers.

 

The 80's cultural references were a bit over the top in this episode, to the point of becoming distracting.    Thank you, Philip, for making me realize how truly unfunny Eddie Murphy's material really was.   Delivery is everything, I guess.

 

Cleverest line of the episode: "Are you trying to turn me into a travel agent?"

Edited April 4, 2015 by millennium

[dr pepper]

I loved this so much. The thing about Henry this episode was that, to me, he was another symptom of how much Philip and Elizabeth miss. He is seeking connection and support, and turns to easily accessible parental figure Stan. I thought it was a pretty deliberate parallel -- just as Paige is turning to Pastor Tim, so too is Henry turning to another parental figure, Stan.

 

 

 

I don't think Stan is a father figure to Henry. He's more a surrogate for a cool uncle-- having his own house with games and videos and time to hang out with kids.

Edited April 4, 2015 by dr pepper

[dr pepper]

 

Edited April 4, 2015 by dr pepper

[henripootel]

Something tells me that in the Season 4 premiere Stan will present Henry with a confiscated bootleg copy of War Games and everyone will sit down to watch it. Awkward.

 

Why?  If I recall, it's the American military who come off poorly in that one, either officious and dangerous (General Minnifield) or dickish and dangerous (Dabney Coleman).  WWIII is narrowly averted when the heroes thwart the military's well-laid attack plans (erroneously triggered) - I could see using this to sell the notion that the american military can't be trusted, and needs to be monitored for the good of everyone, even other americans.

Cleverest line of the episode: "Are you trying to turn me into a travel agent?"

More clever still - in spy parlance, a 'fellow traveller' is someone who is sympathetic to a cause if not directly involved.  An agent for travelers - that's exactly what the Centre wants Paige to be.  I'm sure this isn't what they meant, but it works.

[dr pepper]

Keri Russell's outfits are absolutely perfect on this show. So many of them, usually when Elizabeth is being herself, tend to involve these silky, beautiful sighworthy blouses that just drape gorgeously on her, and in these tapestry colors (that blue blouse!). She also looked gorgeous in her hotel persona.

 

 

Paige is about the right age for a girl to start envying adult women's clothes. Perhaps Elizabeth could have gotten closer with her by letting her borrow some of hers for special occasions.

[whiporee]

They're still a year away, but the movie for Stan to confiscate is Red Dawn. That would be a fun movie night with the Jennings.  Can't you see Henry running around yelling "Wolverines!"?

[gwhh]

Does anyone else thing that this episode should have been called "Speak Russian?" 

 

Instead, of its current title?? 

 

 

 

I think that was a pretty good line from the show.  Maybe, the best from the entire show so far!  Paige delivered it so dead pan and in such disembody and exhausted voice, it conveyed such a deep meaning! 

 

Some real life info on what happen when the KGB went after people kids for recruitment:

 

http://thinkprogress.org/culture/2014/05/22/3440844/could-the-plot-twist-in-the-americans-season-finale-really-happen/

Edited April 4, 2015 by gwhh

[John S]

Poor Paige. She is 14 years old and she just found out that her parents are Russian spies. What does she do next?

Does she start acting out? Does she start smoking cigarettes or joints?

Does she start skipping school?

Does she bring a boy home with the intention of taking him to her room?

When her parents say something, does she say "Bleep You"?

Is she afraid that one or both of her parents will put a bullet between her eyes?

With Stan staying for dinner, does she say something to him? Does she ask what happens to the children when the parents are arrested?

At ANY time she can tell Stan, call the police, or call any other law enforcement agency.

What do the parents do next? What happens if they slap her or try to discipline her in some other way?

Or does she simply try to ignore them by not looking at them or speaking to them?

[sistermagpie]

I don't think Stan is a father figure to Henry. He's more a surrogate for a cool uncle-- having his own house with games and videos and time to hang out with kids.

 

 

Yes, remember that the reason Stan spends as much time as he does at the Jennings is because Stan is the one seeking a family and the Jennings provide it for him, inviting him to their completely regular family dinners. People are often trained now to read any scene of a kid in a room without an adult as lonely, but we've also got plenty of scenes of both kids taking their parents' presence for granted. Stan's the one with the permanently empty house. Henry's parents are distracted and often running out at night. Stan's a bit of a latchkey kid himself, one who also spends long, irregular hours at the office. The main difference between Stan of S1 and the Jennings is that Stan intentionally wanted to be away from home and felt disconnected when he was there. Henry's been interested in him before, and here provided something he knew how to do--hang out with a pre-teen boy playing a game. The show's always been very consistent in its ideas that younger children are simply easier. His real breakthrough as a father was when he talked to Matthew about being undercover--an echo of this scene.

 

In terms of Paige's response to her parents, I assume it'll be complicated. But one thing that I think was important in this ep (and contrasted with Jared's situation) is that I think she is very aware that her parents told her this because she needed to know, and that they made themselves vulnerable to her to do it. That doesn't make up for the lying or the betrayal, of course. But this was never a distant relationship and I don't think she misinterpreted her parents' reasons for telling her. The scene starts with her asking if the love her, and she got the answer to that question along with a pile of hurt.

[John S]

So how do you believe that Paige will react?

[BW Manilowe]

Poor Paige. She is 14 years old and she just found out that her parents are Russian spies. What does she do next?

Does she start acting out? Does she start smoking cigarettes or joints?

Does she start skipping school?

Does she bring a boy home with the intention of taking him to her room?

When her parents say something, does she say "Bleep You"?

Is she afraid that one or both of her parents will put a bullet between her eyes?

With Stan staying for dinner, does she say something to him? Does she ask what happens to the children when the parents are arrested?

At ANY time she can tell Stan, call the police, or call any other law enforcement agency.

What do the parents do next? What happens if they slap her or try to discipline her in some other way?

Or does she simply try to ignore them by not looking at them or speaking to them?

Paige is actually 15, not 14. They were celebrating her 15th birthday the night her Pastor & his wife came over & Paige & the Pastor, pretty much, ambushed Philip & Elizabeth with the news Paige was planning to be baptized in the church.

[gwhh]

That was a great GREAT movie. Changed my life. Spent the rest of my childhood and the Cold War getting ready for WWW III!

But it did not come out till August 1984!

They're still a year away, but the movie for Stan to confiscate is Red Dawn. That would be a fun movie night with the Jennings. Can't you see Henry running around yelling "Wolverines!"?

You are correct!

I don't think Stan is a father figure to Henry. He's more a surrogate for a cool uncle-- having his own house with games and videos and time to hang out with kids.

Edited April 8, 2015 by gwhh

[FormerMod-a1]

I thought the football game was Henry's cover story to find more pictures to swipe of the former Mrs Beeman (can't remember her name right now).

[Umbelina]

Poor Paige. She is 14 years old and she just found out that her parents are Russian spies. What does she do next?

Does she start acting out? Does she start smoking cigarettes or joints?

Does she start skipping school?

Does she bring a boy home with the intention of taking him to her room?

When her parents say something, does she say "Bleep You"?

Is she afraid that one or both of her parents will put a bullet between her eyes?

With Stan staying for dinner, does she say something to him? Does she ask what happens to the children when the parents are arrested?

At ANY time she can tell Stan, call the police, or call any other law enforcement agency.

What do the parents do next? What happens if they slap her or try to discipline her in some other way?

Or does she simply try to ignore them by not looking at them or speaking to them?

Exactly.

 

She just barely turned 15, but the points still stand (and more!)

 

Oh, and I also wanted to say, yes, children keep horrible secrets such as abuse, but those are often secrets they've kept from a very young age.  Mommy drinks, or daddy hits me doesn't just suddenly spring on them at 15 years old.  Much more often they've never known any other way, and the "covering up" starts at much earlier ages.

 

I always thought this story was a slight of hand, talk of recruiting Paige, but only to bring Philip and (KGB/Elizabeth/Gabriel) conflict.  Now that they've actually TOLD her they are spies? 

 

I was an incredibly mature 15 year old, dealing with many things, which I don't want to go into, because, yeah, message board.  Adults used to say I was "born old" but that was out of necessity, and went on for most of my childhood.  Even though I was competent, I was still a teenager.  Let's just say, for maturity level, I far surpassed anything we've seen from Paige.  Politically and intellectually I was also far more aware than Paige.  This isn't bragging, at all, it was a crappy way to grow up, to have so many adult responsibilities at such a young age.  (with me it began when I was much younger)  Also, oldest child, but with 3 younger siblings to care for.

 

That said?  I still had those relatively new hormones making everything more vibrant, more important, and that teenage need to find and define myself, and also to separate from my parents and their issues.  It's NORMAL for kids that age to begin to reject parental values, even in "good families."  It's part of the preparation to eventually leave the nest.  It's natural and part of the process of becoming an adult.  That's why so many stories of teenage girls screaming at their mother exist.  That's why so many "mom" message boards tell distraught mothers to just wait it out, it's a phase, your daughter will not always think you are a stupid, horrible idiot.  "Just wait until she has her first child, she'll love you again." etc.

 

As I said earlier, I can fan-wank that the KGB elite are not in touch with American teenagers likely reactions to all of this, but even that was a stretch for me. 

 

Philip and Elizabeth just leaving her alone all day though?  Philip not freaking the hell out now about the things his daughter will have to do for the rest of her life?  (he doesn't know the USSR will collapse.)  All it takes is one slip from Paige.  ONE.  Philip and Elizabeth were trained for YEARS before they were released into the USA.  Years. 

 

Now Paige is suddenly there, and all they tell her is "Don't tell." 

 

WHAT?

Edited April 4, 2015 by Umbelina

[John S]

As an American, Paige just found out THE worst news that she could possibly receive. There was NOTHING worse than being a spy for the Soviet Union. If her parents had told her that they were criminals on the run, aliens, in witness protection, or whatever, that would NOT have been as bad as learning that your parents were Russian spies. They were America's arch enemy.

Now as a 15 year old, she has to cope with that somehow - but HOW?

As a Christian, does she take it all in stride or does she act out? It will be very interesting to see in the coming weeks just what exactly she does.

If she tells Stan, do her parents shoot him right in front of her? Would they point the gun at her then and FORCE her to keep quiet? That would be sick.

Even as things stand now, I don't see how she can't be scarred for the rest of her life.

[Guest]

So how do you believe that Paige will react?

She has few options, as far as actions she can take that would hurt her parents, short of the acting out type ones you mentioned.  

 

In her shoes I would probably be ecstatic, not hurt and mopey.  Teens are dramatic and want their lives to MEAN SOMETHING.  Russian spies might be on the wrong side of what she's been taught in school is 'right' politically, but it's better than finding out they're skulking around on the lam as former bank robbers or something.  They're doing something they believe is principled.  

 

From a writing standpoint, I think they'll proceed with getting Paige involved, so we'll see even more tension on Phillip.  It'd be a better show development than watching Paige go 'bad teen' (with sex and drugs).  

[Umbelina]

They would need to do some hard core training and philosophy pushing, and soon.

 

Again, teenagers are hard-wired to reject parent's at that age, it's part of growing up.

 

Oh, and anyone, including Philip, that pretends not to be aware that the MINUTE Paige becomes any kind of threat to the KGB operation in the USA she's gone?  Is seriously deluded.  Hell, I'll even include Elizabeth in that, which is another reason I'm struggling so hard to try to buy this load of crap story.  Best case?  She is sent back to the Soviet Union, if they have time to abduct her instead of just offing her.

 

Also, Gabe had better have set up some kind of surveillance on her, or again?  The story is too stupid for even an expert fan-wanker to fan-wank.  The fan wank will begin with "the KGB can't afford to piss off Liz and Phil" but even that will not really hold water if Paige does anything to expose them.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

Again, teenagers are hard-wired to reject parent's at that age, it's part of growing up.

 

 

Her parents really outsmarted her on that. Here she'd been rejecting her parents as politically disengaged materialists who didn't want to help anyone or care about anything greater than themselves, and went to work being the opposite of that.

 

And then--psych! So much better than you at all of that--should have gone to the mall! ;-)

[Guest]

Oh, I hate the story, too.  I just think there must be some reason the writers took us here, so I'm trying to imagine the funnest ride that could result.  

 

I could almost see a final season with Elizabeth and Paige being the zealous, super-spies and Phillip taking Henry away from it, and defecting.  He could be faced with an almost Sophie's Choice type situation.  

[paramitch]

I don't think Stan is a father figure to Henry. He's more a surrogate for a cool uncle-- having his own house with games and videos and time to hang out with kids.

 

But isn't that just semantics? Henry's lonely and seeking parental connection, and sought out Stan. I don't think there's a ton of difference between an "uncle" figure and a family friend who's also a "parental" figure.

 

Yes, remember that the reason Stan spends as much time as he does at the Jennings is because Stan is the one seeking a family and the Jennings provide it for him, inviting him to their completely regular family dinners. People are often trained now to read any scene of a kid in a room without an adult as lonely, but we've also got plenty of scenes of both kids taking their parents' presence for granted. Stan's the one with the permanently empty house. Henry's parents are distracted and often running out at night. Stan's a bit of a latchkey kid himself, one who also spends long, irregular hours at the office.

But that's what makes the connection poignant. Stan is in the process of losing his own family, is actively seeking to alleviate his loneliness and to feel like a part of a family (hence, all the visits with Philip and Elizabeth).

 

For me, this kind of ideal timing means that both Stan and Henry may just bond over football and it will be very sweet, or -- Stan may pick up on some cues from Henry that he doesn't expect, and these may actually lead him to new suspicions of Philip for the first time.

 

I'm interested to see if anything comes of it. And I thought it was sweet that Stan got to look cool for a second, over Henry's delight over "Tron."

[John S]

Oh, I hate the story, too.  I just think there must be some reason the writers took us here, so I'm trying to imagine the funnest ride that could result.  

 

I could almost see a final season with Elizabeth and Paige being the zealous, super-spies and Phillip taking Henry away from it, and defecting.  He could be faced with an almost Sophie's Choice type situation.  

Are you saying that you could see Paige as a Russian spy? I'm not saying that you are wrong. I just find it hard to believe that she would turn against the U.S., even if she did agree with many of the principles. I also find it hard to believe that she could be a killer - or maybe I just don't want to believe that she would turn into a killer. I guess we will find out in the next few weeks.

[sistermagpie]

I could almost see a final season with Elizabeth and Paige being the zealous, super-spies and Phillip taking Henry away from it, and defecting.  He could be faced with an almost Sophie's Choice type situation.

 

 

Answering in the speculation thread.

[RedheadZombie]

Philip's reaction actually was to be fine with her being her own person. When he looked angry at the church and later lost it over the Bible it wasn't because he was so upset about Paige being religious, it was because he was upset about the night before where he killed several people and Paige told him "You two never help anybody."

That may be, but the point I was making related to how she views her parents. Paige doesn't know her father was deflecting, she saw a man who screamed about Jesus and ripped up her bible. That's extreme behavior for a casual non-believer.

[Guest]

Are you saying that you could see Paige as a Russian spy? I'm not saying that you are wrong. I just find it hard to believe that she would turn against the U.S., even if she did agree with many of the principles. I also find it hard to believe that she could be a killer - or maybe I just don't want to believe that she would turn into a killer. I guess we will find out in the next few weeks.

 

Yes, I could see her joining her mother's crusade.  I was her age in 1980 and was no super-patriot, especially after all the ridiculous, overblown-ness of the bicentennial.  My sister and I joked about vomiting red, white and blue, we were so tired of it.  

 

Now I have a teen girl Paige's age and she's all about defending the underdogs, and is (like me) a bit more embarrassed by her country than besotted with it, most of the time.  I think zealot Elizabeth would have an easy time of swaying idealist, humanist Paige to being a communist sympathizer.  

 

She wouldn't start out killing, or even probably end up there, but I could see a tiny spy role growing over three seasons.  I could see Paige at 15 helping alibi them to Henry, and at 17 being all the way to doing some mild seductions, for example.  

[John S]

Yes, I could see her joining her mother's crusade.  I was her age in 1980 and was no super-patriot, especially after all the ridiculous, overblown-ness of the bicentennial.  My sister and I joked about vomiting red, white and blue, we were so tired of it.  

 

Now I have a teen girl Paige's age and she's all about defending the underdogs, and is (like me) a bit more embarrassed by her country than besotted with it, most of the time.  I think zealot Elizabeth would have an easy time of swaying idealist, humanist Paige to being a communist sympathizer.  

 

She wouldn't start out killing, or even probably end up there, but I could see a tiny spy role growing over three seasons.  I could see Paige at 15 helping alibi them to Henry, and at 17 being all the way to doing some mild seductions, for example.  

That would mean that 15 year old Paige would have to give up her Christian beliefs and become an atheist. I don't believe that she is quite ready to do that yet. She MIGHT be able to do that in a few years but not now.

[sistermagpie]

That may be, but the point I was making related to how she views her parents. Paige doesn't know her father was deflecting, she saw a man who screamed about Jesus and ripped up her bible. That's extreme behavior for a casual non-believer.

 

 

Oh, I agree she might (though Philip has been more supportive at other times, she could still remember that as what he must be feeling underneath). I was responding to the description of being surprised at his response because of his usual stance.

 

I could see Paige at 15 helping alibi them to Henry, and at 17 being all the way to doing some mild seductions, for example.

 

 

Wow. Paige doing "mild seductions" seems already way beyond anything I'd expect them to be putting on a 17 year old amateur. Most of the people they work with don't seduce people. (And Philip and Elizabeth certainly aren't eager to pimp out their daughter.) They find people who are in a position to give them info and get it from them. Paige is meant to remain her ordinary self, presumably with basic training for observation etc., then get a job with security clearance and pass info. She's not an Illegal with the wigs and multiple identities and sex training. Having her do stuff like that for her parents at 17 seems like a great way to blow her chances of being the person they need at 24.

Edited April 4, 2015 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

But the entire show has Philip and Elizabeth doing so many jobs that deeply embedded agents would never do, much too risky to maintain their cover, so why expect anything different from these writers where Paige is concerned?

 

Also, I seriously doubt, especially the way this has now played out, that Philip and Elizabeth will have much, if any, say about what Paige will or will not be expected to do.  Or LEARN to do, including honey trapping techniques.

 

I hardly think they will waste screen time on endless indoctrination so that Paige, YEARS from now, may finally do something like infiltrating a likely gov agency or business, presumably after, at the very least, getting a Bachelor's degree.  We aren't going to simply watch a story that may have a pay off around 1990, at least not from these writers who are busy jumping sharks now.

 

She will either at least threaten to expose them somehow, or get into the nitty gritty of the spy stuff this show focuses on.

 

Also, the actress will be 18 in October...something to keep in mind as far as plot lines.  She also keeps spilling spoiler type things in her interviews about future episodes.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Umbelina

[Helena Dax]

That would mean that 15 year old Paige would have to give up her Christian beliefs and become an atheist. I don't believe that she is quite ready to do that yet. She MIGHT be able to do that in a few years but not now.

 

Why would she have to become an atheist? When I was a kid, back in the 70s and 80s, Christ was labeled in some circles as the first communist. And there's the Liberation Theology, which is close to marxism, as far as I know. She can be both, if that's what she wants. 

Edited April 4, 2015 by Helena Dax

[Umbelina]

Why would she have to become an atheist? When I was a kid, back in the 70s and 80s, Christ was labeled in some circles as the first communist. And there's the Liberation Theology, which is close to marxism, as far as I know. She can be both, if that's what she wants. 

You do realize what the communists did to religious people, right?  The KGB are even more dismissive of religion.  So no, once she's an actual agent?  The KGB is not going to let that slide.

[sistermagpie]

But the entire show has Philip and Elizabeth doing so many jobs that deeply embedded agents would never do, much too risky to maintain their cover, so why expect anything different from these writers where Paige is concerned?

 

 

Because the show's still set out its own rules, and Philip and Elizabeth were not being sent out to randomly seduce people at 17 as professionals either, and they're actual Illegals in the elite program. This show often makes the point that real life is like spying, but it doesn't say that spying is as easy as throwing anyone out there and saying "Hey, seduce that guy and get him to do such and such." Philip got Annelise to seduce Yousef because he saw that was an extension of what she did anyway.

 

If the show's been this interested in stuff like Paige wanting to be baptized I think they might see interesting things to explore in her being affected by living a lie and trying to navigate different allegiances than her parents etc. without just skipping to her deciding to turn against her country and religion and go right into seduction work (whether or not she's actually had any sexual experience yet).

 

ETA: It's kind of like the Pastor-Tim-as-Spy thing. He really can be just as important outside the spy game. Those people matter on the show too.

Edited April 4, 2015 by sistermagpie

[Helena Dax]

You do realize what the communists did to religious people, right?  The KGB are even more dismissive of religion.  So no, once she's an actual agent?  The KGB is not going to let that slide.

I don't think so. They can't force her to become an atheist, no one can. At most, you can force someone to pretend. And besides, what's the KGB going to do? Threatening to send her to Siberia if she doesn't stop believing in God? On a personal level, Paige could handle being communist and Christian at the same time because it's possible to be both. If she's willing to cooperate with the KGB, I think the KGB will  be willing to accept she believes in God. Lots of people working for the communists believed in God.

[beeble]

Honestly, I think that the Centre has it wrong with Paige. Yes, she is idealistic and wants to make the world a better place (and nobody is looking at you, Kimmie), but she is offended by lies and deception, and these knowing her parents lied to her is a part of her formative experience. She loves her parents to be sure, but if she is to be a spy, she will hate it. She sees the best in people, and that doesn't involve quietly taking their measurements to see how to fold them into a suitcase.

 

Henry, on the other hand...

[John S]

It was NOT possible to be a Communist and a Christian at the same time in Soviet Russia.

Communism meant atheism.

[Guest]

But she's an impressionable teen girl, who is dying to follow someone into something she finds meaningful.  I think she'd be happy to ditch Tim/bible for Mom/communism, IF Elizabeth did her job right, which she typically does.  Plus Elizabeth is dying to indoctrinate her.  

[Helena Dax]

It was NOT possible to be a Communist and a Christian at the same time in Soviet Russia.

Communism meant atheism.

But she isn't a soviet citizen living in the Soviet Union. She's an American girl living in America. And I'm assuming what she could do for the USSR is more important to the KGB  than her religious beliefs. If it doesn't stop her from helping the KGB, I think they'd see it as a minor inconvenience. Because, again, what other choice do they have?

[sistermagpie]

It was NOT possible to be a Communist and a Christian at the same time in Soviet Russia.

Communism meant atheism.

 

But Paige isn't in Soviet Russia. She's an American girl who can do whatever she wants--including get security clearance. They don't need their assets to be atheists, surely. I mean, they wouldn't reject her intel unless she rejected Jesus or anything.

Edited April 4, 2015 by sistermagpie

[RedHawk]

The thing about this show is that it's not just a story about a couple who are really Communist spies in America and how they turn their Christian daughter to their cause, or not. It's about characters, people, and how they react in certain situations. All the mechanics and speculation about what Paige may or may not be asked to do is fine and interesting. There's plenty of "spy stuff" in the show for sure. Yet the focus is more on the way people interact and react and reveal themselves, change or don't change, fail or succeed. I didn't think much about exactly how Paige was going to be told or find out -- what interested me more was the tension that was building between Philip and Elizabeth and the pressure they were under. I like that they were blindsided by Paige's sudden demand for answers and then had to cope with the fallout when they just decided it was time to be honest. I now want to see how it affects each of them, and the Jennings' marriage, and Henry.

Edited April 4, 2015 by RedHawk

[beeble]

But she's an impressionable teen girl, who is dying to follow someone into something she finds meaningful.  I think she'd be happy to ditch Tim/bible for Mom/communism, IF Elizabeth did her job right, which she typically does.  Plus Elizabeth is dying to indoctrinate her.  

 

The question here is IF she does it right - but nobody, including Elizabeth knows what that is. The jobs that Elizabeth usually do right generally involve either getting neked or beating the crap out of someone, neither of which can be applied here. Paige does surprise her parents quite often, so Elizabeth has to tread lightly which is not what the Centre wants. And I think Philip understands her better than Elizabeth (he's much more empathetic), and this is where the problem will arise. Philip does not want Paige to do this. In fact, his most supportive action was to glower silently at Elizabeth when she said, "She's my daughter too."  In fact, the idea of some fat, sweaty politburo comrade leering at Paige while she slowly undresses is enough to make him defect. 

[Guest]

I think Elizabeth is clever and a mother knows her daughter's Achilles heels, even a lousy-ish one like her.  E is already passionate about her cause.  She just has to be honest about why with Paige, while being somewhat selective about what exactly she reveals (about themselves and communism) and play to Paige's senses of duty and decency and her need for parental direction/inclusion.  

[Dev F]

The story is too stupid for even an expert fan-wanker to fan-wank.  The fan wank will begin with "the KGB can't afford to piss off Liz and Phil" but even that will not really hold water if Paige does anything to expose them.

 

That's not just a fanwank, though; that's the fundamental premise of the Paige storyline this season. Literally the first thing Gabriel says to the Jenningses on the subject in the season premiere is that the Center takes their objections to the original Paige-turning plan very seriously, and then he lays out their new version of the plan that supposedly takes those objections into account. (Heck, it wouldn't be crazy to assume that getting Philip and Elizabeth to chill the eff out about Paige is the reason they brought back a trusted old pal like Gabriel to be their handler in the first place.)

 

And honestly, upsetting Philip and Elizabeth isn't a trivial concern. Indeed, I'd actually consider it a more serious danger than Paige blabbing to someone. If Paige goes to the authorities, her parents get arrested and all their networks are blown. If something happens to Paige, her parents go to the Americans out of anger and all their networks are blown, plus they have the additional consideration of revenge motivating them to give the Americans everything they know.

 

The only way the Center could contain the damage by force is to kill or recall all the Jenningses at once, in which case . . . all their networks would probably be blown anyway, since the series has made it pretty clear that agents tend to act out of loyalty to their particular operatives rather than to the KGB in general -- for instance, in this very episode, we saw Yusuf refuse to talk shop with anyone but Phil.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Dev F

[soapfaninnc]

It was NOT possible to be a Communist and a Christian at the same time in Soviet Russia.

Communism meant atheism.

Karl Marx - who didn't really say it exactly how Elizabeth quoted it earlier in the series - said: 'Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.'  

 

The government is the savior in communism. There is no god other than the state. Everyone is meant to be equal and to be treated equal and give equal deviation to the state. 

 

If Paige did not renounce Jesus - who didn't kill anyone, or sell drugs (Gregory), or steal - I am sure the Center would doubt her commitment to the cause - at least on some level. Paige's snark at Elizabeth about Gregory being a drug dealer, showed me she felt Elizabeth was telling her part of the truth about Gregory. What happens when Paige finds out that drug dealing was only the tip of the iceberg? Or if she somehow finds out Elizabeth carried on a long affair with Gregory?