Recurring Characters: From Dwarves to Knights to Crickets

[Shanna Marie]

The James thing makes no sense to me. George was passing James off as his own son so he could have an heir, and an adopted son wouldn't be a legitimate heir to a kingdom. That was the point of brokering a deal with Rumple. If he just wanted to adopt, he could have taken in any kid. But going through Rumple, he was able to pretend that this child was his own child. So if it was a big secret like that, I would imagine that he wouldn't have told a soul. The only people who would have known were Queen George (however long she lived after that), George, Rumple, and Ruth (and her husband, as long as he lived after that). Telling James would have been a huge risk because there would have been the chance that in a fit of teenaged "you're not my real dad" behavior he'd spill the beans or go looking for his real family. So I find it very hard to believe that James would have known his origins enough to resent being given away or to know anything about the circumstances. Even if he had known about being adopted, how would he have known he was a twin? I don't think George even knew. Wasn't it a surprise to him when Rumple said he could replace his dead son? He thought Rumple was going to bring James back to life, but instead he brought out the twin. So if George didn't find out about the twin until after James died, how did James grow up resenting the twin who wasn't given away?

 

Maybe Cruella got it wrong -- she was probably drunk and not listening very carefully because all that angst is so boring when his mouth could be used for so many better things -- and James has only resented David since he died and learned everything while in Underbrooke.

[KAOS Agent]

 

Wasn't it a surprise to him when Rumple said he could replace his dead son? He thought Rumple was going to bring James back to life, but instead he brought out the twin. So if George didn't find out about the twin until after James died, how did James grow up resenting the twin who wasn't given away?

 

Once again we're heading towards Ret-Con City via Anti-Adoption Way. I'm super excited. Can you tell? Honestly, I don't think they even pay attention to the past. "The Brothers Jones" had Regina talking about how she'd ripped the pages from Henry's book so he wouldn't figure out her secrets. If they can't even remember the thing that drove the entire plot for the show, how can they be expected to care about the James/David story? 

[InsertWordHere]

James could have easily been visited by Imp!Rumple who told him all about his twin brother while conducting some deal. Everyone who was anyone in the Enchanted Forest was visited by Rumple at some point, after all. Perhaps Rumple originally wanted to make a match between James and Snow but James' reaction to the revelation or some shadiness on James' part pertaining to their deal caused him to consider the spare instead.

[Souris]

Michael Coleman, who plays Happy, just tweeted that he was diagnosed with Guillain-Barre Syndrome a month ago. :-(

[Camera One]

I know a lot of things and people could have used 5A's Merida time, but giving it to Red and cutting the dumb "make Rumple into a hero!" subplot would have made the development in "Ruby Slippers" more organic and deeper.  The whole Red-is-missing-something-but-she-can't-tell-what-it-was-so-she-goes-looking-for-her-pack was so trite and clunky.  I know it's This Show These Writers, but I'm still astounded they could have taken this great character from S1 with so much potential and given us this wooden mess with Dorothy.  Even if it had been with Mulan, it wouldn't have been any better.  These characters need to be watered like flowers.  Not thrust under a showerhead once every few years.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Camera One

[Olivia Y]

A bit random, but I only recently realised that the actor who played Cinderella's prince (did he have a name?) has been a main character on the Australian soap Neighbours for the past two years. It's been announced that his character has been written out of the show.

 

Is there a possibility they fight finally wrap up the Fairy Tale version of the Cinderella's story? I know they reunited in Storybrooke before the curse was broken in season 1, but as far as I remember their FT story left on a cliffhanger of him just vanishing. The two-second appearance of Ashely Boyd in that baby class didn't really give any clues either. Does anyone know if the actress who plays her is in any long-term project right now?

[Camera One]

I doubt A&E are interested in Cinderella or her Prince.  The fact they used her story as a throwaway one-off for a Rumple centric says a lot.  Lady Tremaine is a total creep but they only used her once, and that was in the Wonderland spinoff, and she was hardly the same character.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Cinderella's story should get some follow-up. I'd like to see her reunite with her step-sister Anastasia (possibly make amends), see if Lady Tremaine is in Storybrooke, and see what happened to Thomas at the well.

[Camera One]

I would like some follow-up too.  I think the only hope is in the final season maybe.  I think that's the next (and last) time characters like Archie, Granny, Cinders, Hansel & Gretel, etc. might get their day in the sun.

[Camera One]

Dorothy was more bearable than Merida to me, but I sitll wanted to know why she was angry. Was it because years later she was still fighting Zelena with no results? Was it because she was allergic to Toto? Was she unhappy in Kansas? I get that she did not feel support from her family/friends/neighbors, but seriously...was that the reason?

She said they sent her to a psychiatric hospital, so being trapped there being told she was lying would have made her angry.

[Mari]

So, basically, she had the reaction to her family that Henry should've had to Regina.

 

No wonder she seems to be a one-and-done character.  (At least for now.)

[Shanna Marie]

She said they sent her to a psychiatric hospital, so being trapped there being told she was lying would have made her angry.

Which gives her the exact same backstory that Alice had in the Wonderland spinoff. Her father had her committed because he thought she was crazy with her tales of Wonderland, and she was on the verge of being lobotomized when Will and the White Rabbit came to get her. I guess she didn't come across as quite so angry because she was focused on saving Cyrus rather than on thinking about her own problems.

[Camera One]

I totally forgot about that!  I kept thinking this was homage to that "Return to Oz" movie where Dorothy was put into a psychiatric hospital.

 

But it was them copying themselves.  

Edited April 24, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Disney actually owns the rights to all the Oz books except the first one. If they ever did a spinoff with Dorothy, there would be plenty to work with.

[Camera One]

I wonder what an episode would have been like if Red's episode was her meeting Peter again in the Underworld.

Too bad the gang in Storybrooke didn't join them... I'd love to see episodes of Jiminy seeing his parents, Blue meeting her old friend Fairy Godmother, etc.

Edited April 30, 2016 by Camera One

[legaleagle53]

Peter and the Fairy Godmother wouldn't necessarily have been in the Underworld.  What unfinished business could they possibly have had?   I suspect that they both went directly to Paradise as Neal and Daniel did.

[orza]

On 4/24/2016 at 5:19 AM, KingOfHearts said:

Disney actually owns the rights to all the Oz books except the first one. If they ever did a spinoff with Dorothy, there would be plenty to work with.

All of the books in the original series by L. Frank Baum are in the public domain. The copyright status varies for the subsequent books which were written by various authors at different times.

[Camera One]

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Peter and the Fairy Godmother wouldn't necessarily have been in the Underworld.  What unfinished business could they possibly have had?   I suspect that they both went directly to Paradise as Neal and Daniel did.

 

They could always invent unfinished business, as they did for Liam.  Before "The Brother Jones", I would have assumed he would have gone directly to Paradise as well.  But yeah, I'd rather not see more characters dragged through the mud as Liam was.

They could say Peter's unfinished business was to let Red know not to feel guilty about his death.

Edited May 1, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

3 hours ago, orza said:

All of the books in the original series by L. Frank Baum are in the public domain. The copyright status varies for the subsequent books which were written by various authors at different times.

You're right. However, Disney actually did buy the rights before they went into the public domain. There are certain elements from the MGM movie that can't be replicated without paying royalties, such as the ruby slippers.

Edited May 1, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

Did the writers really need to have Zelena be the one to send-off Roland? She killed his mother and raped his father. But then Zelena did take care of Roland for however long she was in New York pretending to be Marian. Messed up, man... I would feel bad for the poor little hobbit child being separated from his half-sister, but he's better off in the Enchanted Forest. 

What an amazing send-off to Merida. No wonder the actress wanted to come back! 

And isn't it wonderful we found out what Guinevere's fate was. Oh, wait...

[Camera One]

The Dragon sure earned his place in the Useless Wise Sage club with Glinda, Blue and Merlin.  "I've done all I can do, but you haven't.  Go out and find magic... it's invisible but I won't tell you where.  It's not like rescuing your friends is urgent anyway.  "

[Rumsy4]

Apparently Witwer didn't audition for the role of Hyde. He was offered the part. 

[Curio]

Hopefully he fares better than Michael Raymond-James.

[InsertWordHere]

I want to be cynical and say that actors should always audition and offering roles can sometimes lead to bad casting decisions, but I can't. It's been four days and his performance in the finale has really stayed with me, to the point where I see Hyde gifsets on tumblr and read Hyde's lines in his voice. That's rarely ever happened to me before with a two episode actor. I am cautiously optimistic about his role next season.

Also, I kind of love that he's a gamer.

[Curio]

I also wouldn't mind keeping Hyde around for a while, I really enjoyed Witwer's performance. But if they ever decide to redeem him and keep him on as Regina's love interest or something, he's gotta drop that Bane accent.

[InsertWordHere]

5 minutes ago, Curio said:

But if they ever decide to redeem him and keep him on as Regina's love interest or something, he's gotta drop that Bane accent.

You mean you don't want to hear Hyde call Regina "bold and audacious" with that voice?

[Shanna Marie]

Non-audition casting can work when a role was written with a particular actor in mind. It's not so great when it's a case of "hey, let's give our friend a job." If Neal was written for MRJ, then they weren't paying any attention to teen Bae and every other member of his family when they came up with the character.

I was rather pleased with both Jekyll and Hyde.

[profdanglais]

Definitely liked Hyde, far better casting choice than Michael Raymond James. But in principle it seems like any actors they're considering should at least read with the cast members they'll be interacting with the most. We might have avoided the MRJ fiasco if he'd read with Jennifer Morrison before they gave him the part. 

Hyde would have to absorb Jekyll for there to be any chance of redemption for him, surely? How can you redeem the personification of evil? 

[Rumsy4]

They also offered the part of Zelena to Rebecca Mader. I'm guessing it was the same for de Ravin, Elizabeth Mitchell, and most of the LOST alumni we've had on the Show, except for Lana probably. 

25 minutes ago, InsertWordHere said:

It's been four days and his performance in the finale has really stayed with me, to the point where I see Hyde gifsets on tumblr and read Hyde's lines in his voice. That's rarely ever happened to me before with a two episode actor. I am cautiously optimistic about his role next season.

Agree. Witwer definitely made an impact with his performance. The amazing score for Hyde also helps. 

[Mathius]

They also wrote the parts of Snow and Rumple for Ginnifer Goodwin and Robert Carlyle specifically.

Quote

They also offered the part of Zelena to Rebecca Mader. I'm guessing it was the same for de Ravin, Elizabeth Mitchell, and most of the LOST alumni we've had on the Show, except for Lana probably. 

No "probably" about it, it's already confirmed that Lana did audition, and A&E awarded her the role because she "scared the crap out of them".

And yes, I can see that since back in the day the Evil Queen was pretty scary, nowadays she's just laughably over-the-top.

Edited May 20, 2016 by Mathius

[KingOfHearts]

Hyde was the character in the finale for me. He had so much presence and the fury burnt like fire. Props to the costuming and effects too, which while cheesy were perfect for this show. 

I'm thankful for minimal Merida, but it's annoying that she was in the end of 5B only to walk through the portal. She was just so out of place in Storybrooke the whole time she was there. Even in 5A. Her only reason for being there was to train Rumple in the ways of heroism. Maybe if she gave Emma the Dun'Broch ale to talk to Hook she would have held at least a sliver of relevance. 

Edited May 20, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

Apparently A&E deserve some actual credit for Violet's dad, Sir Morgan, being the Connecticut Yankee from Mark Twain's book. The main character in the book is "Hank Morgan".

[KingOfHearts]

11 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Apparently A&E deserve some actual credit for Violet's dad, Sir Morgan, being the Connecticut Yankee from Mark Twain's book. The main character in the book is "Hank Morgan".

He's not from Connecticut. He's from Fictional Connecticut. ;)

Everyone from a book or movie is from a Fictional™ realm unless their last name is Darling.

Edited May 21, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Mathius]

No, Violet said he was specifically from the Land Without Magic, so he's up there with the Darlings (and Dorothy?) in coming from this world.

[Camera One]

I think they said Dorothy came from a fake Kansas from one of the "realms of storytelling".

[KingOfHearts]

On 5/21/2016 at 11:29 AM, Mathius said:

No, Violet said he was specifically from the Land Without Magic, so he's up there with the Darlings (and Dorothy?) in coming from this world.

Violet didn't say it was the Land Without Magic, she said it was "here". Violet's dad could have been from Fictional Connecticut and thought he had wound back up there because of the same place names, etc. If someone from 1920s London World landed in a secluded town in the real UK in the 1920s, they would think the same thing.

Quote

I think they said Dorothy came from a fake Kansas from one of the "realms of storytelling".

That is correct. A&E said she was from Fictional Kansas.

Edited May 22, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

On 5/22/2016 at 4:17 PM, KingOfHearts said:

Violet didn't say it was the Land Without Magic, she said it was "here". Violet's dad could have been from Fictional Connecticut and thought he had wound back up there because of the same place names, etc. If someone from 1920s London World landed in a secluded town in the real UK in the 1920s, they would think the same thing.

That just seems rather too convoluted. I think we're meant to understand Violet's dad is from our world. 

More from Sam Witwer's gaming session.

Quote

Sam Witwer does some Mr. Hyde quotes: (00:24:17 mark)

00:49:38 mark, he talks about working with Robert Carlyle. He’s a huge fan of his. “He’ll walk all the way across the set to put his hand on your shoulder and say ‘That was a great take!’ and then he’ll go back across them room.” “He was so encouraging.”

00:46:08 mark, he talks about working with Colin. “Colin is a really, really nice guy.” What was it like to choke Colin? “It was wonderful.”

Edited May 23, 2016 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

That just seems rather too convoluted. I think we're meant to understand Violet's dad is from our world. 

Well, the other Fictional realms are convoluted, tbh. Alice is from Fictional Victorian England, but the Darlings are from real Victorian England. Cruella's world is stuck in time and has no sense of year or date, which makes no sense. There was no reason for Dorothy to be from Fictional Kansas. The multiverse is entirely an arbitrary mess. It's a cool concept, but it's not managed very well. The timelines gets extremely wonky. (Especially when you throw Once: Wonderland into the mix.)

Edited May 23, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Everything is arbitrary because it's based on what's convenient for the retcon de jour.  Dorothy couldn't be from Our World, or she would be an older woman by now.  Thus, they needed her to be from Fictional Kansas where time apparently doesn't matter.  Except when it does so Zelena needed to put up her very own Cora Dome.  

Violet's dad was just a throwaway piece of cleverness so they couldn't care less which Connecticut he was from.  I suspect they're not going to explore HOW he got to Camelot or anything.  And if they do, they'll make up something when they get to it.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Is Dopey still a tree? What was the point of James? How did the Dragon survive Tamara's taser? Why did Tamara's two murders both fail? How did Rumple know about Tamara's run-in with the Dragon? Where the heck are August, Maleficent and Lily? Why does Lily not give a crap about Emma or the Charmings all of a sudden?

Edited June 2, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

9 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Why does Lily not give a crap about Emma or the Charmings all of a sudden?

The actress was pregnant during this season. I'm not saying they would have integrated her in 5B, but I tend to cut the writers some slack, especially since they had to work around 2 pregnancies (especially Emilie's since she gave birth before they finished filming), Ginny's Zootopia, Colin's movie.

Also, Lily decided the Charmings weren't worth it from what I remember after deciding she'd stay for a week in town.

I've been wondering if Mal turned to dust when the magic was sucked out of Storybrooke. The town may not have been impacted, but Mal sure as hell should have been. 

[KingOfHearts]

Brave isn't a masterpiece by any stretch of the imagination. It's got very obvious problems and doesn't come to close to a "must-see", especially compared to the rest of Pixar's lineup. However, one thing the movies does right is Merida and her moral lesson. They could have easily made her this rebellious female lead whose defiance to her parents conveys some sort of twisted quasi-feminist statement. But instead, she isn't rewarded for disobedience. She learns how to communicate and resolve conflict maturely. In exchange, she is able to marry whomever she wants to. Her mother respects her because she returns that respect.

In Once, Merida is rewarded for kidnapping, yelling, threatening to murder, and theft. These actions maker her "tough" and "fiery". But in reality, they maker her a spoiled brat who can do whatever the heck she wants. If you're interested in seeing Brave, don't let Once be any indication of its quality. While I don't care for the movie, Merida in Storybrooke is so much worse than all of its flaws combined.

(I'm starting to see a trend in spoiled brats getting what they want. Regina. Henry. Merida. The list goes on.)

Edited June 24, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

However, one thing the movies does right is Merida and her moral lesson. They could have easily made her this rebellious female lead whose defiance to her parents conveys some sort of twisted quasi-feminist statement. But instead, she isn't rewarded for disobedience. She learns how to communicate and resolve conflict maturely. In exchange, she is able to marry whomever she wants to. Her mother respects her because she returns that respect.

I think that's what annoyed me most about the Once version of Merida. Movie Merida had learned these lessons. Then Once seems to be at least ten years later (maybe more, judging by the ages of the triplets), and yet she's less mature than movie Merida. She's generic "feisty" and abrasive, probably even brattier than teen Merida in the movie. Movie Merida had her flaws, but that was the point of the movie, that she had flaws she needed to work on, and she was a kid. It was a teen coming-of-age story. Show Merida was an adult who should have learned some valuable lessons, but she had none of the grace and maturity movie Merida gained by the end of the movie. They basically just created a standard-issue stereotypical redheaded Scottish woman, dressed her somewhat like the movie character, and gave her that name for marketing purposes, but she actually had almost nothing in common with the movie character.

[KingOfHearts]

I'm really not a fan of how the show tackled Little Mermaid either. Ursula's story is fine, but Ariel's feels entirely irrelevant to her Disney source material. Her encounters with Snow and Regina were pointless (other than giving a connection), and the instalove was cringey at best. At least Ariel in the movie was interested in the surface world in general and not just getting hitched. I'm fine with the character on Once, just not as an adaptation. 

[Camera One]

They did end up giving half of Ariel's backstory to Ursula, so the actual Ariel lost the whole connection to her father and sisters and her life under the sea.  

Though Belle also completely lost the whole bond she had with her father, which was such a key part of the original movie.  Ditto for Mulan, whose relationship with her father was quite important.  Rapunzel got a throwaway filler.   The traditional Disney princesses didn't fare too well either.  Cinderella was just a prop for the first Rumple flashback.  The Writers also had zero interest in Aurora, King Stefan, etc.   And looking at the writing for Snow White in recent seasons... it can't be more obvious that she's a ball and chain for A&E.

I can't wait for their adaptation of The Princess and The Pea.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Oddly enough, Merida is slightly less insufferable on rewatch. Granted she's still extremely annoying, but her involvement is so forgettable that all I can really say about her is meh. She was there, she happened, and thankfully I can block her out of my memory with missing anything too important. I think when I watched it live she was more frustrating to me because she took time away from the main characters and her story went nowhere. I thought she was going to give someone the Dun'Broch ale. Didn't happen. I speculated she was going to aid in Arthur's demise after all that revenge quest stuff. Didn't happen. Her only service comes in A) Emma's interactions with her in 5x01, which were fine, and B) training Rumple to be a hero, which was just stupid.

She was a pointless distraction meant to lighten the mood. But in order for that to have worked, she had to be likeable. She wasn't.

Edited September 5, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[KingOfHearts]

I'm not really a fan of Archie now. Between breast crickets and being sent by Snow to fix Emma, he doesn't hold the same "safe innocence" any more. Granted we haven't seen much of him, but I don't see anything likable from what we have. He sort of just exists.

Edited September 26, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Mathius]

It all started with his one appearance in S4, in a scene that went nowhere and just amounted to a "Let It Go" joke.

A shame, because he was great whenever he turned up in the first three seasons.

[Camera One]

4 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I'm not really a fan of Archie now. Between breast crickets and being sent by Snow to fix Emma, he doesn't hold the same "safe innocence" any more. Granted we haven't seen much of him, but I don't see anything likable from what we have. He sort of just exists.

I like recurring characters, but there was no reason for him to be in this episode.  The scene led nowhere, creating nothing meaningful for Archie nor for Emma.  At this point, I'm wondering if A&E intentionally finds reasons to avoid having Emma share one-on-one conversations with Snow or Charming, because would it have killed them to have Emma speak to one of them instead?  If they want to bring back Archie, create a scenario where ONLY Archie/Jiminy Cricket would work.  It's not like they've exhausted the Pinocchio mythology yet.

Edited September 26, 2016 by Camera One

[Delphi]

It would have been easy enough to switch it to Regina and Archie, given that she was last in therapy with him and let Snow talk with her daughter, but honestly they'd have to remember that Snow/MM had a relationship with her daughter in the first place, and these writers haven't cared about what would make sense since season 3.

Edited September 27, 2016 by Delphi