Recurring Characters: From Dwarves to Knights to Crickets

[Curio]

This is why I hate all the screen time we spent on Lily and Maleficent last season. They were given so many flashbacks and episode centrics, and then they end up being completely useless to the current plot so they're dropped from the show. At this point, Emma will probably just say some offhanded line like, "Sorry I'm late, guys. I just helped Lily find her father. Apparently, he was living on Broom Street this entire time!"

[Camera One]

Maleficent was unavailable for the 4B finale, yet the writers seemed to go out of their way to ensure there was a little mini-cliffhanger with Lily and her fathers search, so who knows...  I assumed A&E was bored of Maleficent and was ready to have Lily interact with her shocking father.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

They said in a post-finale interview that they wanted to deal with the darkness transfer between Lily and Emma and I assume that meant that they were planning on using Lily's dad and Emma's Dark One status to close out this storyline. Somewhere in the planning, they ditched that and now Lily's not even a blip on their radar which they admitted in several S5 interviews.

[Rumsy4]

A&E probably decided to ditch Lily so they could tell Regina's story AND shove Merida into the plot unnecessarily. The degree of importance goes like this:  Regina > New Shiny Toy > Other Main Characters > Recurring Characters. Not that I want Lily back, mind you. It just rage-inducing how useless the whole baby-napping plot has been.

 

The writers could have had Snowing banish Emma's Darkness into some object or into the void. It would have had the same end result on Emma. But, no. They had to paint Snowing as horrible people who burdened an innocent child with extra darkness and separated her from her mother. Those evil White/Charmings...

[KingOfHearts]

They'll probably follow through with Lily's story just like they have with Will's...

[Curio]

They'll probably follow through with Lily's story just like they have with Will's...

 

I will forever be bitter about how they handled Will and Ana's story. 

 

On a lighter note...can we please keep Merlin around for a while? I can think of several main characters he could replace permanently...

Edited October 27, 2015 by Curio

[Mathius]

While A&E are most likely the ones to blame most, I still can't help but wonder if Disney's new Descendants franchise had any effect on the decision, given that the star of it is a delinquent daughter of Maleficent.  Maybe Disney wanted to monopolize the concept, even though Once did it first?

[KingOfHearts]

I really don't like Merida. I've seen Brave twice and she never foamed at the mouth as she has in Once. She wasn't exactly sensible or humble, but I never found her to be mean-spirited or too violent. I realize on this show she's desperate to save her brothers, her dad died, and Emma is controlling her heart. But unless her centric shows a completely different side of her, I don't want her on my screen again.

 

No offense to the actress. She's doing a great job with lots of energy. The writing is just one-dimensional, sort of like Zelena's.

Edited October 27, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[InsertWordHere]

I'm going to fanwank that Granny's unfortunate witch hunt tendencies last season were because she was missing Ruby.

 

So Tiny came back with the second curse?

[Rumsy4]

So Tiny came back with the second curse?

And within a week, he had coaxed a bean out of the burnt-out field.

[InsertWordHere]

And within a week, he had coaxed a bean out of the burnt-out field.

Maybe he started growing it before Going Home? Or maybe Snow built a beanfield into her curse.

[HoodlumSheep]

Maybe he used some Miracle Grow? Or he has an incredible green thumb. Or he managed to create a new Magic Bean species that has a shorter growing time?

[Delphi]

Oh how I love Mulan and Ruby. Isn't it convenient that Red was able to find her wardrobe so quickly after hopping that portal with Tiny? It's not safe wandering around the enchanted forest in hot pants unless you're Belle.

I'm really bothered that they explained why Ruby was there in the forest but didn't bother to take the time to explain why Mulan wasn't with the merry men. Come on show, it's not hard. Also marriage agrees with Jamie she looks absolutely stunning and even when she was supposed to be depressed and without honor she looked very happy.

[Camera One]

I'm going to fanwank that Granny's unfortunate witch hunt tendencies last season were because she was missing Ruby.

 

Good one.  I wish we got to see Granny's reaction to Red telling her she was leaving.  That's the type of character stuff I wish we saw.  Granny dealing with Ruby leaving her last season.  But of course, they made this up only because they finally figured out how to use Red, but would it have killed them to give Granny a few lines about wanting to look for Ruby now that they were back in the Enchanted Forest?  

[Mathius]

I notice how different Mulan is in S3 and S5 when compared to her original S2 portrayal, which was much more stoic and traditionally warrior-like.  I heard that this portrayal caught a lot of flak, with some even blaming Jamie Chung as an actress for being "wooden" even though that was more of the character's fault, so that's probably why she was revamped (plus allowed to wear her hair down more.)

[KingOfHearts]

 

I really don't like Merida.

You know, I was really hoping my opinion might've changed after her two centrics. But it truly hasn't. Merida's only slow moments were with her father, and to be honest the sea of crap it was submerged in kept it from holding any weight. The scene at the lake was only setup for Fergus switching the helmet out. 

The scene with his ghost was setup for 5B in the sense of introducing the Underworld.

Even though her grief was harped on quite a bit, I never felt sympathy for her. I mean, what does it say when I feel more sorry for Arthur when he's being a jerk?

 

And for the record, I really don't care about Red or Mulan any more either. They were retconned and collected dust for too long. They're completely irrelevant to everything else going on.

Edited November 18, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I was thinking about how Merida has gotten two centrics, yet they didn't even bother to tell Maleficent's backstory in 4B even though she was supposed to be one of the big attractions.

[myril]

I was thinking about how Merida has gotten two centrics, yet they didn't even bother to tell Maleficent's backstory in 4B even though she was supposed to be one of the big attractions.

 

Didn't pay that much attention to 4B, but they did gave some background about Maleficent if I am not mistaken. Not the background story many likely were hoping for though, there was little about her feud with Aurora's family, but on the other hand what they wrote was better connected to the core cast stories. Not that it made a whole lot of sense, this bad-egg-whatever plot.

Merida on the other hand seems to take over some of what I think Belle, and Charming maybe as well, was used for sometimes in the past seasons: adventure-of-the-month distraction, with eventually some (other) guest or recurring character, picking up some more or less seemingly unimportant gadget or incidental information on the way, which might turn out in the end of the half season or season arc to be of some importance, like the Magic Ale. Merida is MacGuffin provider and stooge. It's something the writers seem to see as great story telling method: Bring up something that might play a role but has to be overlooked, avoid connecting it by every means with any of the inner core characters (aka Regina, Emma mostly) so people don't get the right ideas, and then bring it up in the end for some silly twist. No idea if that works for casual audience, but doesn't look like it works that well with fans.

 

And for the record, I really don't care about Red or Mulan any more either. They were retconned and collected dust for too long. They're completely irrelevant to everything else going on.

I love these two characters, but kinda agree with you. Though for me it's a mix of, having collected dust so became rather irrelevant for the show, so why bring them back, and what the show has become, it doesn't make me expect good, interesting character development anymore, so would prefer them to keep their hands mostly off these characters now. I call it fan nostalgia. The lack of follow-up is something the writer can't undo, they have to make a number of somersaults now to fit them back in, to give explanations for things they didn't bother to explain before. I know, never tell more than you have to, to keep options open, but the problem was, how the characters left stage in the first place. They should have set up things better back then.

With Mulan they tried, somewhat, just that they messed up putting her with a group of people that thanks to Robin Hood and his involvement with Regina was somewhat still visible and present, and they needed some more red shirts for the Zelena's monkeys and had to park Roland somewhere, so the Merry Men came to Storybrooke. Now we know Mulan didn't stay with them, must have left sometime during that year in the EF before Snow cast the Dark Curse to get back to our world, but can still only guess why not. Broken heart alone doesn't quite do it for me.

The way they handle Red on the show will likely never cease to make me scratch my head. There was no surprise that people were wondering where Red was IMO, but obviously the writers couldn't make up their minds to at least give a plausible explanation for the moment, why Red still might be not much around. What were they thinking when they did in season 3B those scenes with Red in the EF? Did something end up on the cutting floor? If you're not sure, if you have the actor at hand when needed, then write that way and set up a situation where you can bring them back in or leave out with ease (so I can wonder, if they don't know how to write that or if it was a management issue). Now Red got the sack aka bean, in retcon, without anything developing her wish to leave for good (and the non-screen published things, novels, don't give any help there either). I mean, I can fanwank a story, how things changed for Red in that year back in the EF. With the looming threat of Zelena Red might have taken some responsibilities to help find a solution , did reconnaissance, roamed the Enchanted Forest and maybe even beyond, so we didn't see her in the flashbacks, And having been out there on her own again, or with maybe a few others, then back in Storybrooke and even more when Zelena was defeated and the baby safe, Red missed something, the adventure, the independence, roaming free, so the idea came back to look for other werewolves, despite that she had rejected that one pack a while ago for the friendship with Snow. Still for many Red's wish to go back and look for her kind felt at least out of the blue and for some it feels impossible, she once made up her mind, so can't change her mind now all of a sudden.

At least now there were a bit smarter, Red is keeping on looking for her kind and Mulan is with her, and fans for the moment can write nice fan fictions about it, but it's a plausible way to park the two characters for the moment off screen, they are in Whereverland. Might come back, or not, with this show never know, whatever rumors are saying.

[Camera One]

All of this though? One person to blame. Merlin. Merlin is all kinds of pretty, but Merlin is all kinds of misguided, and manipulative. And how freakin' high were Nimue's walls that he couldn't even get a glimpse of anything when it came to her? When you can't figure out what a person is even thinking, maybe you shouldn't tell them about the magical cup that gives you magic, and immortality.

 

I was just thinking about Google prediction service, and what if it was Merlin prediction service.  You type in "Where's a good Mexican restaurant near me" and Merlin.com would send you to a form where you could sign over your kidney to him.

[KingOfHearts]

Merlin is too good for his own good. He has absolute power, yet it doesn't corrupt absolutely. I don't understand how all the DOs were so easily corruptible, yet Merlin lived for centuries as a force of light. The only mistake we saw was with Nimue, but even that had no bad intentions. I find his prophecies extremely annoying because he's portrayed as a saint, when really he's the one has caused all the trouble in the first place. Normally that would be considered shady, but by this point I'm convinced the writers believe they're writing a totally relatable, altruistic messiah.

 

Oh he's too stupid to live as well. Don't forget that. He creates more plot holes than anyone else.

Edited November 25, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Now I really wish we saw a backstory with him and Blue, his sister, who tried to convince him that Nimue was bad news or something.  Merlin and Blue are birds of the same feather.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

Honestly, I kind of hope that Lily goes the way of Will or Tamera and Greg and disappears as far as our characters know.

This is definitely an unpopular opinion, but I wouldn't mind if any of these mentioned characters had gotten fleshed out. I hate seeing recurring characters disappear so much, and I feel like they would be more entertaining if the writers put more effort into them. While I did despise the storylines Lily, Will, Greg and Tamara were all given, they all had gobs of potential for continuous development. They were all attached to crap left over from our mains. Lily is the Swan Queen fantasy, Will is the angsty boyfriend for Rumpbelle, Greg is the evil victim of Regina, Tamara was the shady fiance for Neal. All four of them were props, which meant the writers didn't give them any full characterization. 

Edited December 18, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Jul 68]

Didn't the Nevengers find something in Neverland that let them know that Greg and Tamara are dead? I could have sworn something happened to that effect.

[Camera One]

Tinkerbelle told them Greg and Tamara died in "Nasty Habits".  There's a clip of the scene on Youtube if you search Nasty Habits Exit Plan.  It looks like their "exit plans" are just as sound 2 seasons later.

Edited December 19, 2015 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Merida would have been tolerable if she were only in 5x01. Her stuff didn't bother me so much in the premiere; probably because she wasn't the focus. Her anger was a little more justified since Emma wasn't a safe person to be around and she was in a hurry to save her brothers. Brief, condensed. It was her return in 5x04 where she became brutally annoying.

[Camera One]

Have you tried rewatching it?  Her parts were so boring to me.  For me, her best episode was "The Bear King".  If they cut out "The Bow and the Bear", and Merida's role in Storybrooke, she would have been fine.

[Rumsy4]

The fact that the writers didn't tie up her story and she might be back in 5B makes it all the more annoying. She's like a fly that can't be swatted away.

[Camera One]

It's weird to me how Arthur and Guinivere were sort of dropped in the latter half of 5A, while Merida's story actually continued to take center stage.  I mean, they could even have given Lancelot his own episode.  Or give Merlin another one before he died.   Or provided closure and payoff to the Arthur/Guinivere/Lancelot saga.  Heck, they could have given Granny and Red their own episode, or provided Mulan with an origin story if they wanted to throw in a completely unrelated episode.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Camera One

[legaleagle53]

It's weird to me how Arthur and Guinivere were sort of dropped in the latter half of 5A, while Merida's story actually continued to take center stage.  I mean, they could even have given Lancelot his own episode.  Or give Merlin another one before he died.   Or provided closure and payoff to the Arthur/Guinivere/Lancelot saga.  Heck, they could have given Granny and Red their own episode, or provided Mulan with an origin story if they wanted to throw in a completely unrelated episode.

 

Not to worry.  We've also been promised that Arthur and Guinivere will be revisited along with Merida during the latter half of 5B.  Of course, I'll believe it when I see it.

[KingOfHearts]

I don't think the In The Name of the Brother flashbacks were necessary. They're very paint by numbers, and 2x05 already covered the major points. I wish we could have seen more of the Land Without Color, but Frankenstein's story isn't very original or open-ended. Besides the father, you could picture in your mind what happens without watching it. 2x05 did an adequate job of introducing Whale's backstory while keeping it relevant to the main characters. If the writers had to elaborate more on his world later, they could have taken more unexpected turns with it. What we saw was already explained with dialogue.

Edited January 6, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

The story of Whale and his brother was a little reminiscent of Hook and his brother.  Being someone's brother on this show doesn't end well.  Generally, neither does being someone's mother or father.

[snarkastic]

I wish we could have seen more of the Land Without Color

I've always had a head canon that Dorothy was from there

Maybe it will come true

[Mari]

I agree Merida was the main problem that stood out among everything. She was the biggest turn-off.

 

 

She is the single most obnoxious and superfluous character in the Show's recent history.

I agree that she's been a horrible, horrible addition, and a lot of what they had the character do could have been accomplished by characters like Mulan, Robin, Snow . . . . practically 3/4ths of the character stable.

 

I guess my questions are more about why is Merida so horrible?  Milah was given quite a bit of unpleasantness, yet managed to be interesting.

 

Was it solely the performance, was it solely the writing, or was it an unfortunate combination?  

[Rumsy4]

She was so one-note and abrasive! I haven't seen the animated movie, but from what I hear, she apparently learned the same lesson in the movie as in the Snow. Which was--I don't even know what she learned. Why not use Mulan in that role? I'm sure she would have been the perfect person to train Rumple. You get the added advantage of bringing Mulan to Storybrooke so you don't have to retcon Red's return to the EF (since when was Ruby interested in hanging with other werewolves. Didn't she choose Snow as her family?).

 

I guess the writers were going for the "Strong-female character" vibe, which in TV translates to a woman who is abrasive and goes around punching people. But Merida had no nuance to temper that, which made her so annoying.

Edited March 25, 2016 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

Merida from the movie was your stereotypical rebellious teenager, but she wasn't rewarded for it. Without giving away spoilers, she learns that sometimes you have to compromise, be civil, and that you can't always do whatever you want. The Merida on the show, however, can be a vicious woman with a crazy look in her eye, with no consequences. Somehow she's still a hero after doing things like kidnapping Belle or threatening to kill a defenseless Emma. She's everything wrong with Regina. Regina's a psycho too, but she's a much deeper character. She's not constantly stuck in one mode.

 

Point is: Merida on the show gets rewarded for being a feisty lunatic.

 

 

I guess the writers were going for the "Strong-female character" vibe, which in TV translates to a woman who is abrasive and goes around punching people. But Merida had no nuance to temper that, which made her so annoying.

Or Camelot wasn't "Disney" enough so they needed more modern iconography. Maybe she was an attempt to lighten the mood by giving the audiences a break from the dreariness of the Dark Swan and the Camelot soap opera?

Edited March 25, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

There was a huge disconnect between Merida kidnapping Belle to use her for her own ends and her getting all pissed about Emma using her in the same way that she was using Belle. Emma was acting badly and was portrayed as such, but Merida was rewarded for her actions while Emma was rightfully looked at poorly. I didn't really understand why I should be rooting for Merida. It was especially weird when she was sympathetic to Emma's action in 5.01, then demanding to be freed by Emma's friends in 5.06 because Emma owes her and then proceeded to pay those people back for helping her by kidnapping their friend. 

Edited March 25, 2016 by KAOS Agent

[Mathius]

Was it solely the performance, was it solely the writing, or was it an unfortunate combination?

Solely the writing. Amy Manson does just fine as Merida, it's not her fault this version of Merida is written terribly and comes off as less emotionally stable than her teen movie self.

Edited March 25, 2016 by Mathius

[Camera One]

They did not capture the essence of Merida from the movie.  She was not supposed to be a violent psycho.  

 

The fact that they kept that abrasiveness going for multiple episode made the character really hard to bear (pun intended).  I agree it was mostly the writing, but still, some abrasive characters are able to show some subtle humanity (eg. Regina's sadface as the Evil Queen), but the actress who played Merida rarely showed it (though I don't blame her since her lines were almost all abrasive).   I did like her character a lot more in "The Bear King" when they showed her as a human.  That needed to be her only episode, and better incorporated into the narrative.  

 

It didn't help that she was intertwined with one of the weakest and most unconvincing subplots of the entire series, making Rumple into a True Hero!  That was so ridiculously idiotic that even Robert Carlyle couldn't make it interesting.  It was a waste of time, and a waste of everyone's talent, and was a complete waste of Dark Emma's screentime.  I don't think any character could have fared well.

 

Another major waste in 5A was Arthur.  He had the makings of a complex character, and the actor was a good choice.  But they made him into such a cartoon that he became a detriment to the plot.  At least he didn't have as much screentime as the annoying Zelena in 3B.

 

Merlin was super charismatic, but they made him into such an idiot.  I guess it's no surprise.  Though he still fared better than Glinda.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I did like her character a lot more in "The Bear King" when they showed her as a human.  That needed to be her only episode, and better incorporated into the narrative.

 

Merida gets one slow scene in all her appearances, and it's talking to her father by the lake. Everything else is hell hath no fury.

 

 

Another major waste in 5A was Arthur.  He had the makings of a complex character, and the actor was a good choice.  But they made him into such a cartoon that he became a detriment to the plot.  At least he didn't have as much screentime as the annoying Zelena in 3B.

Arthur and Zelena were cartoon villains in 5x09. Arthur loses his edge around 5x08. Emma just flings him away non-chalantly like he didn't matter. It was strange how much Emma didn't seem to give a crap about Arthur, even after he had threatened her family and mortally wounded her boyfriend. But let's sacrifice Zelena instead because she's annoying?

Edited March 25, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

I don't want to talk about what the writers did to Merlin. It almost makes me weep.

[KAOS Agent]

I think that Merlin is a good example of how the actor can really elevate the writing. Merlin was an idiot, his actions made no sense and his role in a bunch of life destroying events makes him very problematic, but Elliot Knight was just so great in the role and he made me feel for Merlin. That he and Caroline Ford managed to make the Merlin/Nimue romance even remotely interesting is a massive tribute to their abilities. I hesitate to judge Amy Manson based on this example because I think she's not a bad actress, but I think she doesn't have the ability that other guest stars have had to take poor writing and characterization and still create something compelling. 

[Shanna Marie]

I hesitate to judge Amy Manson based on this example because I think she's not a bad actress, but I think she doesn't have the ability that other guest stars have had to take poor writing and characterization and still create something compelling.

I think she had some strikes against her. Merlin and Nimue were underwritten. There really wasn't a lot to work with in the scripts, so there was a lot of room for the actors to amp that up and add nuance. Merida was written as a 12 on a scale of 1-10, totally over the top in feisty anger. That leaves nothing really to work with. If the actor tries to add more to that, what you get is a 15, but it's really hard to underplay that level of anger without coming across like you're just going through the motions. There was no complexity to mine, just a lot of shouting.

 

I read an article recently on fantasy tropes and how they get it wrong, as applied to injuries. There was a whole section about head injuries and concussions, and how knocking out someone for more than a minute or so would involve a serious brain injury that would cause impairment and probably some long-term effects. With that in mind, it's hard to take Merida's kidnapping of Belle as anything but a horrific act (though the brain damage would explain a lot about Belle).

 

TV Merida is so different from movie Merida that I can't even see them as the same character. The TV version had to have been at least a decade older than the movie version (given the age of the triplets), but she was acting worse than the movie version was at the beginning of the movie, before she learned the lessons she learns in the movie. Even at the beginning, her anger and frustration were focused on a specific issue. She wasn't just angry in general, and that's the way the TV version came across. She was like a walking, talking representation of every cultural stereotype about Scottish people.

[HoodlumSheep]

My problem with Merida was that she was angry ALL the time. She was permanently angry. It was just too much.

I love all the Camelot characters, despite the writing. I can't help it. I enjoy the actors immensely. Merlin sadly suffered from writing. Nimue and Arthur fared slightly better. My biggest let down with Nimue is how she kind of turned into a generic hive-mind (along with Hook) in Swan Song (so near the end of her screen-time). I wish she would have kept a little more of her uniqueness near the end.

I wouldn't be against seeing her (or Merlin) again; more her than Merlin.

I really liked Guinevere in the 5x04 flashbacks.

I love Arthur. Love him. *Proudly waves an "I love Arthur" flag*

I even really enjoyed Percival before he bit the dust.

Overall I think Camelot had managed to find some really charismatic actor's to portray the Camelot characters. It's too bad the writing didn't do them justice.

Edited March 25, 2016 by HoodlumSheep

[KingOfHearts]

 

My biggest let down with Nimue is how she kind of turned into a generic hive-mind (along with Hook) in Swan Song (so near the end of her screen-time). I wish she would have kept a little more of her uniqueness near the end.

This. She went from a dynamic character to the Borg Queen in like one or two episodes. I found her crocodile role confusing because at some points she was Nimue and other times she was a generic villain representing all Dark Ones. I don't completely understand how she was connected to the Dark One "essences" and how she was collaborating with them to free herself from the Underworld. I still don't know what her true motive of "snuffing out the light" meant.

Edited March 26, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

Cruella is fantastic. She has the perfect blend of snark and on-screen presence, and seems to have great chemistry with everyone (even Henry). It's also nice that we only get a few minutes of her per episode, so it doesn't become an overload. Of all the returning characters we meet in Underbrooke, I'm enjoying her cameos the most. She brings in the light comedic touch the Show lacks so much these days. 

[KingOfHearts]

I'm pretty sure Cruella is filling in for Zelena. They're both so wonderful in small amounts. (Much like Sparkly!Rumple.)

[YaddaYadda]

Cruella is awesome. She provides some levity in an otherwise bleak season.

[OnceUponAJen]

I love that Cruella doesn't have some poor me sob story background. I'm shocked that James does, really.

[Rumsy4]

It doesn't matter that he slaughtered giants and left his girlfriend to die. His mommy and daddy issues make him practically a victim in this Show. :-p

[Camera One]

Well, it's Charming's fault that he was chosen over James.  Hopefully, he repents properly.