S10.E16: Paint It Black

[oliverwendell]

Okay, I just made myself watch, which required a near-superhuman effort of will because of all the grim reports I read here.  And yes, it was boring.   

 

But.  What was all that blather from Dean about how his impending death is making him think about "feelings, things, people," and how he's maybe been doing it wrong?  That's some major introspection from Mr. Cheeseburger there.  Are they really trying for some significant character growth for him?  Like, maybe he's finally figuring out that he could be more than just a hammer that whacks things until something whacks him back?  Because that would be fantastic.  How it would play out in his story in the future I'm not sure.  Maybe he would try to develop some healthy interpersonal relationships for a change?  Talk to his brother, for example?  Or to Cas?  Whatever -- color me intrigued.

 

As for death and the Mark, my understanding of the mythology is that the Mark will kill Dean if he doesn't kill to sate it.  As in, flat-out kill.  The demony resurrection only happens if his corpse is reunited with the Blade, which he has every reason to believe Cas will keep far away from him, dead or alive.  So he's planning to resist feeding the Mark until it kills him.  Until then, he wants to do as much good as he can in the world.  And his plan appears to be working, if those little coughs and stomach pains in the car at the end are any indication. As far as the Cain/Abel thing, I don't think Dean believes for half a second that the Mark can make him kill Sam.  Especially if he follows through on his plan to make it kill him first by starving it.  So his reasoning for not telling Sam that does not escape me.

[AwesomO4000]

My fanwank is it seems Dean has never told Sam that Cain didn't kill Abel out of jealousy but to save him from going to Hell, and that the Mark is not a curse, but like a THING that Lucifer created to make Cain a Knight of Hell. It's more a like a sentient being attached to Cain and then Dean. Nor, it seems, has Dean told Sam that the Mark will literally kill him if he doesn't kill.  Right now that is a HUGE GIANT SIZE OF THE GRAND CANYON plot fail. 

Sam evidently does not know what Dean knows and since he and Dean have not shared their separate knowledge with each other, they are going at it from cross purposes, which is FUCKING STUPID.

 

I agree: I don't think that Sam knows any of the details - likely not even the "feed the mark or die" stuff specifically. (Sam knows it does something, but I don't think he knows that exact detail.) We didn't see the conversation, and we've had no indication from Sam that he knows anything that Dean knows... which explains why Dean's discouraging Sam from "researching," because Dean knows that Sam is spinning his wheels, but he can't say directly why that is without tipping his hand that Sam doesn't know the truth.

 

I'm not sure it's as much a plot fail as it is a plot and/or behavior repetition. Dean is once again trying to solve everything himself. I think he didn't tell Sam anything, because 1) I think he thinks it's his business / problem (I know, I know) 2) He figures Sam couldn't do anything anyway - since he has no faith that Sam or anyone else (except maybe Cas - see #3 below) can change things (something I saw in his attitude in the last conversation of this episode) so what difference does it make if Sam knows or not?  3) Dean figures that when things go south, Castiel will "take care" of him if things go South (how very Sam Season 4 of Dean) and that as long as Castiel has the First Blade, only bad will happen to him (Dean) anyway, so no problem.

 

I've come to the conclusion that Dean - like Sam. They seem to share that trait - doesn't generally handle being "chosen" for something very well and that eventually he snaps. To me this looks an awful lot like what happened to Dean in season 5 when he decided that he was going to say "yes." He didn't give Sam any kind of heads up then either, and I think what Dean learned from that experience, instead of "maybe I should've discussed my crazy plan with Sam and Cas" was "I have to hide my motives and the information even more, so that my brother doesn't figure it out this time." In other words, Dean's trust issues are really coming back to haunt him this time.

 

I think fourteenwords is right. This time Dean is trying to do season 3 and season 5 "right." That he'll make sure that he dies before Sam figures it out and without Sam trying to do something stupid (in Dean's mind) to "fix" it this time.

 

I'm thinking Dean might think that since Cas has the FB, he's really not THAT much of a danger to everyone , since he's actively not killing in spite of the Mark starting to make him yak again.   It's something he should be talking to Sam about but where's the fun in that (says Carver).

 

Supposing that Cain is alive, maybe Cain told Dean that he'll come and kill him like Cain wanted Dean to kill him, and this going to become Dean's farewell tour a la s5.

 

Exactly, except I'm not sure about Cain not being dead. I think Dean's doing the farewell tour though, and he wants Sam to just "go along with it" this time and let him get in as many good deeds as he can. And as people have said before: has Dean met Sam? Sure, Sam may go along with your "go in with guns blazing" plans Dean, but that's because in that moment he has faith in your ability and that's completely different... it doesn't mean he's going to let you go quietly into that good night just because you say so. He's going to analyze everything to death and find whatever crazy ass thing he can to try to get around it (remember the crazy "immortal" doctor, Dean?) This isn't Dean dying and going to heaven... Sam likely knows that nothing good can happen from Dean dying with the mark of Cain on his arm... so that equates to an extra crazy-making, "I have to stop Dean from going to hell - again" Sam.

 

The only thing that could even make me even remotely stomach the Sam not looking for Dean thing (and it still doesn't excuse Kevin, but water under the bridge, water under the bridge, water...), was that Sam might've thought that Dean was dead and finally at peace in heaven - though that he didn't try to find that out for sure... okay backing away slowly before I go postal... But Dean having a peaceful, going to heaven death is a very unlikely scenario here ... so the idea of Sam going along with Dean's "let's just do as much good as we can while I still can" is a crazy thing for Dean to even think that's going to happen. Sam's not going to do that, Dean. He just isn't.

 

Why did Sam cover up looking for solutions last episode while this episode, he talks a big game about beating it? Why are they behaving so inconsistently?

 

I think Sam getting caught at it last episode + angsty having to kill Kit = Sam not giving a crap about hiding it anymore, in my opinion. I think Sam was sensing Dean's farewell tour" signs and is getting too desperate to bother with the pretense of hiding what he's doing, but he doesn't want to call Dean on his "Let's just do as much good as possible" crap so as to avoid an argument.

 

But after this episode, Sam also has to know that his "Dark Side of the Moon" reminiscent "we can beat this" encouragement once again seemed to fall short of his hoped effect. However this time, Sam also knows what comes after that, and I don't think Sam's going to just let it happen this time either... which explains the previews of Sam and Cas next week..

[supposebly]

 

The demony resurrection only happens if his corpse is reunited with the Blade, which he has every reason to believe Cas will keep far away from him, dead or alive.

If that's true, I suspect that means that Rowena and/or Crowley will dupe Cas into doing something stupid. Again.

 

Or Sam is stupid enough to somehow force Cas to give up the blade. Again.

 

Oh I hope I'm wrong.

[Demented Daisy]

I forgot to mention last night -- they need a researcher, if only to remember their own canon.

 

Did Olivette really sneer at Rowena over "consorting with demons"?  Back in S3, weren't we told that witches got their power from demons?  Rowena said she was born with her abilities, yes?  But those in the coven weren't?  So, what?  They learned from books?

 

Really, show.  Get your act together.

[AwesomO4000]

I forgot to mention last night -- they need a researcher, if only to remember their own canon.

 

Did Olivette really sneer at Rowena over "consorting with demons"?  Back in S3, weren't we told that witches got their power from demons?  Rowena said she was born with her abilities, yes?  But those in the coven weren't?  So, what?  They learned from books?

 

Really, show.  Get your act together.

 

I just figured that the Grand Coven was only for witches with "natural ability" which is why Rowena was dissing Olivette for not being as strong and talented as she was. I don't think it would make much difference if these were demon-powered witches, because presumably they could just get the demon to and / or call on black magic or borrowed power to give them more power. I just figured the Grand Coven looked down on witches who got their powers from demons as "wanna bes" and not "true" witches, but that was just my impression from the copious blabbing that Rowena and Olivette did.

[Demented Daisy]

I wish they had been clear.  But considering how much they have (seemingly) forgotten recently, I wouldn't be surprised if it was a slip.

 

Either way, bad writing, IMO.

[catrox14]

I forgot to mention last night -- they need a researcher, if only to remember their own canon.

 

Did Olivette really sneer at Rowena over "consorting with demons"?  Back in S3, weren't we told that witches got their power from demons?  Rowena said she was born with her abilities, yes?  But those in the coven weren't?  So, what?  They learned from books?

 

Really, show.  Get your act together.

 

 I don't think it was ever explicit that witches only got their power from demons. 

Edited March 26, 2015 by catrox14

[Demented Daisy]

Until the Grand Coven came along, the only info we had about witches' power was from Malleus Maleficarum.  In that, Ruby said that witches got their power from demons.  Later episodes involved witches, but I can't remember any that actually discussed the origin of their powers.  Perhaps it was an idea TPTB moved away from, so Sam and Dean wouldn't have to kill every witch they encountered.  I don't know.

[catrox14]

I remember that but I didn't take that as the be all and end of all how witches got their power.

[DittyDotDot]

Also, the kids in Swap Meat got their powers from demons and the witches in It's the Great Pumpkin, Sam Winchester. However, hey seem to waver on this point from time to time because it seems people can work spells and such without being considered an actual witch. There was the man witch in The Curious Case of Dean Winchester and the witches in Shut Up, Dr. Phil who didn't seem to get their powers from demons, but it was never explicitly said either. And then there are wickens who seem to be "good" witches...I'm not totally sure what exactly defines a witch as a witch on this show, so I went to another source and it didn't really help clear much up.

 

From SupernaturalWiki.com: http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=Witches

 

Witches

A witch, also known as a sorcerer or warlock, is a person, whether male or female, who has the power to effect change by magical means ("witchcraft"). Of those encountered by Sam and Dean, most are practitioners of black magic - that is spells used for self-gain or to harm others.

 

History

According to the "Grand Coven" there are three types of witches in the world, first the "borrowers" -- witches that get their power from demons, presumably in exchange for their souls.[1] The second type, and rarest are the "naturals" those born with natural ability for magic. Thirdly are "students" who are trained and mentored by Grand Coven approved witches. However, it appears some witches are shown to be self-taught, no deals or mentors, just a book of spells. It is notable that hunters like Sam, Dean, and Bobby often use the same spells and rituals, but would not consider themselves witches.

 

The Grand Coven ruled and controlled the affairs of witches and guarded the lore. The Coven and the witch community is now greatly weakened, after any years of attacks and witch hunts coupled with an organized effort by the Men of Letters to plunder them or their spell books and records, which they hid in a serious of spell-guarded bunkers around the world.

 

I'm assuming the history part is mostly from this episode. I haven't seen the episode yet and most of what's detailed above I don't remember seeing before.

 

Side note of little import: I read an interview with Sera Gamble some time back where she stated how hard it can be to unveil some of these big lofty ideas and then try to stick with them over the long haul. She said something about how the writers used to chide Ben Edlund about putting the idea of witches getting their power from demons out there in the first place. I'll try and find the article again, I don't think I'm getting the idea across right.

[Demented Daisy]

If that was in last night's episode, I must have fallen asleep during part of it.  Or something, because I don't remember any of that at all.

[DittyDotDot]

Hmmm? Well that's weird. I wonder where their source was for that. They cited Malleus Maleficarum for the first part (witches getting their power from demons), but didn't give a source for the rest. I just assumed it must've been in this episode. Well, color me even more confused!

Edited March 27, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[AwesomO4000]

I'm pretty sure it was the episode with the "soul hookers" (Girls, Girls, Girls?) where Rowena explained quite a bit of that to the girls who she was going to adopt as her "students" over their fancy lunch...  Or well at least the one "student" she thought who was "worthy," not the one she used as cannon fodder - which really what person with two brain cells would trust "oh, don't worry, I won't do that to you." Oh, yes, she so would. Run, girl, run as fast as you can.

 

I can't imagine why Rowena is so upset with the coven. I can't imagine any "students" of hers lasting more than a month before they were spell-chow and died a horrible death because of it like the girl she turned into a "watch dog" and self-destructed.

 

Edited to add:

It is notable that hunters like Sam, Dean, and Bobby often use the same spells and rituals, but would not consider themselves witches.

 

It is similar to the Buffyverse then where there is power in words - especially Latin. In Buffyverse though, even casually reading the wrong thing can cause "magic" to happen... as evidenced by both Xander and un-demoned Anya. Willow had her share as well. In other words, it's best to heed Giles advice "Xander, don't speak Latin in front of the books" (Xander doing so caused the book to catch on fire.) Oh, also whatever you do, don't ever wish out loud for anything... you'll generally be very sorry about that. Living near the hellmouth exacerbates these phenomenon.

 

At least in Supernatural-verse, there is usually an entire ritual - and usually the addition of blood, herbs, fire or all three - that precipitates the magic happening, so accidentally doing magic is less of a hazard than in Buffyverse. I am assuming witches, on the other hand, gain the ability to do the "quick" magic through just words once they make their pact with a demon (or they are born that way if they are naturals).

Edited March 31, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[DittyDotDot]

I don't remember all the talk about the Grand Coven, though. I remember Rowena saying she was a natural and all, but the history of the Grand Coven and the MoL stuff is new information to me. Admittedly though, the show just doesn't engage me as it once did, so I miss a great deal of this crap when in that special comatose state the show lulls me into lately. I definitely could've missed it.

[Demented Daisy]

Oh, I forgot, the MoL were mentioned last night.  Olivette told Rowena that the MoL had hunted down the witches, blah blah blah.

 

ETA  The three types of witches, I don't remember that from last night, so that must have been from Girls, Girls, Girls.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Demented Daisy

[7kstar]

I don't remember all the talk about the Grand Coven, though. I remember Rowena saying she was a natural and all, but the history of the Grand Coven and the MoL stuff is new information to me. Admittedly though, the show just doesn't engage me as it once did, so I miss a great deal of this crap when in that special comatose state the show lulls me into lately. I definitely could've missed it.

A lot of it is from this one, in Rowena torturing her enemy, but although some fans loved this ep, not on this board...I don't remember all of it just a haze of it.

 

I think the fanwave, is that when an idea is too hard to keep it up, add a new verse so you can get more mileage out of the idea.  What other eps have given some of this info I don't know, as most haven't been the best eps with the witches.  JMV  Maybe someone that loved the ep, can be more clear, but I'm afraid I don't have the energy to research this one in watching past eps.  lol

[DittyDotDot]

Oh, Chuck, I wouldn't wish witchy research on anybody! I'm totally with Dean on this one...witches...ewww!  ;)

[cassandle]

I'm pretty sure it was the episode with the "soul hookers" (Girls, Girls, Girls?) where Rowena explained quite a bit of that to the girls who she was going to adopt as her "students" over their fancy lunch...  Or well at least the one "student" she thought who was "worthy," not the one she used as cannon fodder - which really what person with two brain cells would trust "oh, don't worry, I won't do that to you." Oh, yes, she so would. Run, girl, run as fast as you can.

  Yeah, you're right.  I (miraculously) still have "Girls, Girls, Girls" on my DVR and checked.  The part on the wiki page about the three different types of witches is pretty much exactly what she tells the girls (girls, girls).

[SueB]

There was quite a bit of world building in this episode. Not only did we get the demise of the Grand Coven story but we also got how there are apparently Men of Letters 'chapters' all over the world. And that while the 'American chapter' was decimated, it seems like the others still exist. Further Olivette knew 'the hunters, the Winchesters' (and then she SPIT! Like their name is a cursed), had taken over the MoL bunker. Olivette also confirmed the bunkers were impenable (too warded). Most importantly, she said that across the globe, the MoL had plunder the Grand Covens' treasures (I think she said spells and magical items). Thus setting Rowena on a path to go after the MoL 'treasures'.

WhIch brings me to four points:

- Originally I thought it was odd to have a BL episode that was myth arc light. Now I see they were world-building the witchy stuff and the MoL.

-Olivette describe the MoL as 'sanctimonious do-gooders'. I think that between this and Magnus' complaint that the MoL had all these treasurers just carelogued but not used, we're seeing the inherent problem with Hunters and MoL. Hunters use whatever means to stop evil. MoL will take action but won't use magical artifacts except to keep them out of the hands of those who would use them for their own purposes. So, Henry & Josie knew spells but only used them with specific intent. This is similar to most hunters but Hunters will use magic knives/blades/amulets etc to proactively track down monsters/the supernatural.

- the demise of the Grand Coven is either overstated or BL just took a left turn. The witch in About a Boy said she was sent by the Grand Coven to hunt down Rowena. Implying and existing power organization. Now the vibe is that they were decimated years ago and Rowena has been on the lamb for nothing. Then again, maybe Olivette lied.

- Maybe THIS is Crowley's long con. He wants to get into the bunker to plunder it. Hence no killing the Winchester.

Really, in context, there is a great deal to chew on this episode. If you fast forward over Italian Fabio, it's kinda story-setup important.

[DittyDotDot]

Well, damn, I guess I gotta go watch it so I can put it all in context myself.

 

I have a lot of issues with the idea there were chapters of MoL everywhere and only the Americans got killed back in the day. It makes no sense to me that one of the other chapters didn't come looking into what happened to the "Winchester" chapter. And, why haven't Sam and Dean come across this in all the files they've scoured in the bunker over the last two years? Plus, much of what we learn about the MoL in Everybody Hates Hitler seems to not support this idea.I realize Bruckner and Leming-Ross tend to do huge nonsensical retcons all the time in their episodes, but this seems like totally out of left field to me right now.

 

Also, the bunker being warded is such a load of crap at this point. Demons and angels alike have been able to waltz in and out of the bunker unaffected by the warding and without the key or an invitation, too. They really need to stop saying this, IMO.

 

Alright, I'll go watch it now and see if it lines up in the end, for me.

[psychoticstate]

Please wake me when that redheaded sea beast is gone and my show returns.

[SueB]

Well, damn, I guess I gotta go watch it so I can put it all in context myself......

...,.Alright, I'll go watch it now and see if it lines up in the end, for me.

Mwhahahahaha.

I think this is a potential myth arc twist that may come up again. You are completely correct that these guys do that often. I wonder if it's always them or Jeremy and Bob getting these guys to do the dirty work?

[DittyDotDot]

So I watched the episode and...I have no idea what it was I just watched, but it wasn't Supernatural, IMO. Not even the "new" Supernatural it's been since S8.  All the flashbacks and stuff seemed so very random, too much and far too long, and were sooooo bad! The retconning was really out of control and I just can't get behind any of it. To be honest, I just don't see the point of this episode at all, I still have the same questions I had before watching it, plus a whole gob more. None of this new MoL information makes a lick of sense to me.

 

I thought Rowena left at the end of The Executioner's Song...why was she still hanging out  and pouting in the King of Hades' "palace"? I don't get why Rowena didn't just start her own Grand Coven? I mean, why does she need their blessing to practice magic anyway?  I'm assuming she was more pissed she wasn't one of the cool kids anymore, but still seems like she should of figured out how powerless the Grand Coven is in the last couple centuries--if not only the last couple decades--if she herself was all so powerful. Sigh. This writing team seems to be fascinated with witches, but only on the surface. They keep rolling out the same old tired clichés of witches and I just don't get it. Okay, to be fair, I might not be the best judge since I, myself, have little interest in witches. But, I could if someone would do something interesting with them...maybe?

 

I get the sense Crowley has something up his sleeve with regards to getting payback for Sam and Dean trying to "cure" him. He said he'd deal with the Winchesters and I'm thinking he's torturing them in his own way like Rowena decided to torture Olivette...by not killing her. Maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part because Crowley has been boring the living shit out of me lately and this might actually have some potential. Delusional much?

 

Anyway, I realize characterization has been all over the place since Carver took over, but that confession was utter nonsense, IMO. I realize the beginning was play acting. Dean was playing the part of a two-timing jerk to get the ghost to come after him. So, yeah, the stuff about the ladies and such wasn't at all true, but that was actually the point, so I'm fine with that part. The part were he got serious is the WTF part to me. It was written as though Dean just, for the first time in his life, got introspective. Bullshit, IMO. We've already covered this territory in S3, if not all seasons at one point or another. This writing duo, in general, doesn't seem to really know who Dean Winchester is anyway, so whatever.

 

Good to end on...HAMSTER! I'll just point to Gudzilla's most awesome musical interlude a page back and smile...I do love a good musical interlude!

Edited March 27, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[cassandle]

- Maybe THIS is Crowley's long con. He wants to get into the bunker to plunder it. Hence no killing the Winchester.

 

I would love if this were the reason Crowley's been sitting around hell all season doing nothing.  I love Mark Sheppard but I'd rather see him pop up sporadically and actually do something than see him every week looking bored.  But I can forgive Crowley's lacklusterness if he can turn it around into something dastardly and awesome.

[Aeryn13]

I think this episode was just an exposition piece for the connection Rowena can have with Future!Dark!Sam. Him using witchcraft and specifically probably striking a deal with Rowena to deal with the MOC was pretty much a given but what he could offer in return was unclear. Now we know: bunker access. Then all the magical items get out and Season 11 can basically be like Friday the 13th the TV show. Or Warehouse 13.

 

Which, in theory, the quest for harmful magical items can be exciting but I`m disappointed that the MOC storyline is just written so lackluster and incoherent until then. If I`m correct, the finish to it will be as lame as the insta-cure for Demon!Dean. No big redemptive moment at the final resolution. Meh.

[rue721]

I think this episode was just an exposition piece for the connection Rowena can have with Future!Dark!Sam. Him using witchcraft and specifically probably striking a deal with Rowena to deal with the MOC was pretty much a given but what he could offer in return was unclear. Now we know: bunker access. Then all the magical items get out and Season 11 can basically be like Friday the 13th the TV show. Or Warehouse 13.

 

I think you're right.

 

So this whole episode was just to establish that the Winchesters are rich, and then the ~resolution~ will be when they literally buy Dean a ticket out of Hell.

 

Nice. "Here you go, Dean. 1 indulgence = 1 bunker worth of inherited riches." *vomit*

[Lrdmordain]

How was Isabella still "sane / together", for lack of a better term, if she died so long ago? Didn't they establish in that episode where Ghost Bobby learned how to be a ghost in that haunted house that after a couple dozen or so years that Ghosts start to degrade / dissolve?

[SueB]

 

Good to end on...HAMSTER! I'll just point to Gudzilla's most awesome musical interlude a page back and smile...I do love a good musical interlude!

That was an EPIC and appropriate rant.  I think this is where Olivette's head is right now.

 

 

How was Isabella still "sane / together", for lack of a better term, if she died so long ago? Didn't they establish in that episode where Ghost Bobby learned how to be a ghost in that haunted house that after a couple dozen or so years that Ghosts start to degrade / dissolve?

She should have been totally nuts. Then again, she wasn't exactly sane to begin with.  I've never heard of a ghost that old.  

[catrox14]

So I was rewatching and thinking more about Dean's "confession".   I wonder if he's thinking about John again. That maybe he'll see John in a new way or allow himself to have feelings about John that he couldn't acknowledge before (not including demon!Dean, because who knows if that was really the truth). 

[LittleIggy]

I hate Rowena and her over the top accent.

[DittyDotDot]

I believe that's the actress's natural accent. I do finder her over-the-top drama queen-ness grating, but she's seemed toned down to me in these last two. Maybe I've just become accustomed to her, though.

[catrox14]

Ruth Conell is Scottish. Her real accent is not quite as pronounced but she is a Scot through and through.  IMO she's playing OTT on purpose.

[DittyDotDot]

Oh, I know she's being OTT on purpose...putting on airs and all is a big part of this character. I'm just saying the first couple episodes I really thought it was far too obvious and too much for this character who has been around for centuries. A character like how she was playing her would've drawn some attention long before now, IMO, but didn't. I think it would've made more sense if she was more subdued in the beginning and grew more OTT as her frustration and our familiarity grew and she just couldn't hide her inner drama queen any longer. So, what's she's been doing in the last couple episodes has seemed more in line with the character at this point. Anyway, I think that's why she's not grating on me as much as she did at first.

[7kstar]

Oh, I know she's being OTT on purpose...putting on airs and all is a big part of this character. I'm just saying the first couple episodes I really thought it was far too obvious and too much for this character who has been around for centuries. A character like how she was playing her would've drawn some attention long before now, IMO, but didn't. I think it would've made more sense if she was more subdued in the beginning and grew more OTT as her frustration and our familiarity grew and she just couldn't hide her inner drama queen any longer. So, what's she's been doing in the last couple episodes has seemed more in line with the character at this point. Anyway, I think that's why she's not grating on me as much as she did at first.

Acting in different countries is also different styles.  Some are much bigger than life like stage acting and some are much softer.  So it could be that the actress had trouble with the transition but I wish she had taken your suggestion and the blame lies with a good director.  You have to be willing to let them know that it is too much.  Can you be a bit more subtle.  It could be she was giving what she thought they wanted and now that fan interaction has occurred they are adjusting the performance.

 

But however it happened, I liked her more this last time, I just think with her less is more.  The more I see her the more I want her dead, gone and hit the door and don't come back.  I blame the writing not the actress, because I think she is capable of delivering the right stuff, with better writing and direction. 

 

I am also glad that this site doesn't attack the opinions of others and get nasty like some of the other sites do.  I enjoy coming here to read other thoughts and I don't feel I'll get buried with insults if I express something someone doesn't like, so thanks for keeping this site mature and fun.  See some fans know how to act with good manners.  :)

 

I may re-watch much later to see if I can like it a bit more or to see if this one really did pave a direction for the rest of the season.

[SueB]

I like this sassier Rowena.  Before she was an obvious obsequious toad to get Crowley to bend to her will.  Now she's giving him shit left and right (grand entrance and all) and says more of what she's really thinking.  She's also a habitual liar so it's tough for her to be "real" but there were a least a few real moments.  

[Demented Daisy]

I still think Ruth Connell is speaking slowly and deliberately (which may seem over the top) to make sure she's being understood.  The cast and crew know the script, so they'll understand her pretty much no matter what.  (In my experience with stage performances.  Often, usually for dress rehearsals, we'll bring in family and friends for a preview.  Our most common feedback was that the cast was speaking too fast.)

 

A Scottish accent at normal speed can be damn hard to understand.  

[Rammfan]

I love Rowena now. I think that her line about not dissing her for being a career woman is what sealed it. I laughed so loud and long I had to back up and play again because I missed so much.

 

Of course Rowena is playing Crowley and of course Crowley is playing Rowena, they are as alike as two peas in a pod, which only makes sense.

 

If the show is setting up a witch deal and the MoL "treasures" getting loose (like the loose nukes from Heaven), I think that will be a ton of fun. They could make anything do literally anything - An amulet that forces people who wear it to .... whatever, the sky's the limit.

 

As for Dean, just because he's had some self-refection in the past that doesn't mean he can't have some more, especially if he didn't really do anything about it the first time. Not all life lessons are learned in one go or learned correctly the first time. I think there are things Dean wants to do differently, but he knows he doesn't really have time to do it. Part of that speech wasn't so much a confession of self-reflection to me as a kind of wistful acknowledgement that no matter what he hoped to do about his "people, feelings" he wasn't going to have time to in any case because he was going to die, and of course he doesn't want to.

 

There was a lot that was good in this episode, but I just wish that TPTB would realize that we *don't care* about the backstories of one-offs, ghosts or not. A line or two of motivation, even speculated motivation is enough. They seemed to know that in the past and didn't waste screen time on people we are never going to see again. Remember the pilot? We didn't see the Woman in White's flashback of her husband cheating on her, we didn't see her drowning her children in flashback. The story was told appropriately via Sam's interview with the husband, snatches of research, and two wet kids at the top of the stairs. THAT'S Supernatural, not Renaissance Soap Operas.

 

Also, the actress who played Sister Mathias could not have been a *worse* actress. I've seen high-school plays with better acting. I kept thinking while she was ...moving her lips... that Jensen must have the patience of a saint.

[SueB]

 

- An amulet that forces people who wear it to ....

... cluck like a chicken

... run up and down the street naked

... hug everyone they meet like "Sam" did in Tall Tales...

 

Sorry, I'm just imagining about a thousand funny things. I think I need this to happen now.

 

 

Also, the actress who played Sister Mathias could not have been a *worse* actress. I've seen high-school plays with better acting. I kept thinking while she was ...moving her lips... that Jensen must have the patience of a saint.

She didn't bother me.  I thought she was unusual for a nun (and no way do they wear that much makeup) but kinda sassy.

 

The Italian Ghost!nun? Yikes.  Her acting for me was worse that Italian Fabio's hair.  And that's sayin' something.  

 

IA that the flashback scenes were just too much.  I could have seen ONE flashback, the squick one where she cuts off her finger so we get the connection to the painting... but the rest were painful to watch.

[mertensia]

 

 

A Scottish accent at normal speed can be damn hard to understand.  

Yeah; I had to call tech support once and got some guy with a Scottish accent. He was nearly incomprehensible to me and I am used to hearing accents. He kept asking me to click on some icon that looked like a p----------. I was baffled. Finally I figured out he meant pencil (it was the only thing left to try on the screen that I figured started with a p). I said "the pencil?" and he said yes. Then I got lost again when he said his next instruction. 

 

It wouldn't surprise me if Rowena had been very visibly flamboyant and showy to try and get Crowley's attention and reverted back when she did. 

[sarthaz]

Probably a bad idea to spend any energy deconstructing that awful Skinemax Italian Nun "plot", but during my episode-induced nap, I missed the explanation for why this 500-year-old Italian journal and painting were at the church in the first place?

[cassandle]

Probably a bad idea to spend any energy deconstructing that awful Skinemax Italian Nun "plot", but during my episode-induced nap, I missed the explanation for why this 500-year-old Italian journal and painting were at the church in the first place?

 

I think the family willed all their ancestors' stuff to the Catholic church as a whole and then somehow it made its way to that specific church.  Not that that's a good explanation.  Why wouldn't it have stayed in a church in Florence (Florence?  Rome?  Wherever.).  What would have made more sense is to have had it be a Spanish church/nun (if they really wanted it to be ethnic for some reason) and have it take place in California or Texas or New Mexico...somewhere with Spanish missions.  Then the heirlooms would have stayed in one place instead of being shipped to another country for some dumb reason and the nun being able to speak English would have been slightly more believable (but not really since it would be a couple hundred years before English-speakers were in that area...).

 

I think I've officially given this plot more thought than the writers did.

[AwesomO4000]

Maybe ghosts have a special translator thing like the people have in Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - except magic instead of technology - and whatever they say is automatically "translated" due to magic brain wave alignment or something. ; ) I mean technically ghosts don't have lungs so shouldn't be able to "talk" anyway... so maybe they have "think communication." Of course technically they still should be thinking a different word in a foreign language, but we'll just bleep blorp past that part and move along, nothing to see here.

[DittyDotDot]

Does the Universal Ghost Translator translate the written word too and/or make it so Sam can suddenly read, not just Italian, but Renaissance-era Italian?

Edited March 30, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[AwesomO4000]

Hee... for some reason, I just assumed the thing was in Latin, so that's why Sam could read it.

[DittyDotDot]

Heh, it's as good an explanation as anything! ;)

[supposebly]

ETA:

 

Never mind. That made no sense whatsoever. I was imagining that the nun should have a Latin accent forgetting that it was about Sam reading it.

 

Actually, so if she wrote in Latin, the voiceover when Sam was reading should have sounded Latin?

 

While the rest when she talked to the other nun should have been accented Renaissance Italian.

 

....I might have had a beer too many, work outing.

Edited March 31, 2015 by supposebly

[sarthaz]

By now, I just assume Sam is fluent in all languages (living and dead), and the bad accent reading was for the audience's benefit (much like ancient Romans are all stately Brits for American audiences).  Far less believable to me was the hot nun ... 

[catrox14]

I've watched Dean's confession scene like 10 times. Man, I can't exactly identify what breaks my heart but something changed in Dean.  IMO he know he's doomed no matter what. That he'll either become a demon again, or he'll kill someone he loves and that's why he said he wants to feel or experience things differently. IMO Dean knows his life as he knew it, is really truly over. IMO he's kind of grieving who he was before.  It's just some amazing work by Jensen.

[SueB]

I've watched Dean's confession scene like 10 times. Man, I can't exactly identify what breaks my heart but something changed in Dean.  IMO he know he's doomed no matter what. That he'll either become a demon again, or he'll kill someone he loves and that's why he said he wants to feel or experience things differently. IMO Dean knows his life as he knew it, is really truly over. IMO he's kind of grieving who he was before.  It's just some amazing work by Jensen.

Yeah he's doomed....but he's not self-loathing.  That's like a major win.  He thinks he's worthy of more than a one-night-stand kinda relationships. Victory?

[catrox14]

Yeah he's doomed....but he's not self-loathing.  That's like a major win.  He thinks he's worthy of more than a one-night-stand kinda relationships. Victory?

 

I didn't think his confession actually had anything at all to do with his sexual history.  I think it was the stepping off point to his entire life and all of his relationships. I don't judge one-night stands in any way shape or form nor do I think Dean judges himself for those one night stands. He might want something more but still believes he can't have it since he did try to have two meaningful relationships that were not one night stands and look how the second one turned out?  I don't think Dean will ever go that route again.

 

But personally the "experiencing for the first time" might really have been about John.  As to the self-loathing...eh, that is always there and IMO it will always be there, just the degree varies.