S02.E04: Episode 4

[maraleia]

 

Miller is struggling to control her sister Lucy amid family tensions, Alec must confront his demons, and Mark Latimer has to make a decision.

 

[Automne]

I knew Hardy's ex-wife and daughter were going to make an appearance this season. The ex is a bitch. Given what Hardy did to save her ass at the expense of his own, she needs to take a seat.

 

The father of the murdered girl needs to have a seat as well. What's with the men of this show, off screwing women that aren't their wives while their children are being murdered?

 

Ollie has become a little cock, hasn't he? You write for a small-town paper nobody will be reading in a year, hunty. Act with some integrity instead of broadcasting your desperation to be picked up by a bigger newspaper. Or do you not remember how the woman you screwed to get ahead ended up running after jumping the gun and writing a story that led a man to commit suicide?

 

Oh, boo hoo hoo, Tom. Quit your bitch crying and go talk to your mom instead of latching onto Mark Latimer. The fool finally realized that he has a family that he needs to be tending to instead of some sort of revenge friendship with the son of the guy that killed his son (in the process of grooming him for molestation).

 

I figured Susan Wright was going to come back. She had to have been called back to testify. Unfortunately, she's given the defense team their alternate killer and a way to avoid putting Joe Miller on the stand.

 

Having watched Gracepoint, I'm having a bit of an issue trying not to get the two shows cocked up together because I've got GP's Nigel expy mixed up and I was about to mention the Danny tattoo, but that was unique to Gracepoint, I believe.

 

So, have they just dropped the Paul/Becca thing? That was odd to bring up in the first episode and then...nothing.

 

It looks like that Jocelyn has macular degeneration, given the blank spot in the center visual field.

 

I like Kate; she's been through the same shit Beth has and is clearly in the shit for it (topped off with alcoholism to boot), but isn't a raging bull, not even to a person that, from any POV other than the viewers', she legitimately has reasons to be.

 

I'm guessing Hardy did sleep with Claire. Did Chibnall watch The Following and take some tips from that show? Kevin Bacon's character slept with James Purefoy's character's wife while investigating Purefoy for the serial killings of young adult females before the series' start.

 

How did Miller not know about Joe beating the crap out of some random dude while on duty? Like, I get not knowing about the clandestine meetings with Danny, but beating the shit out of somebody to the point of broken ribs? I feel like that would have warranted a phone call or something.

 

I wonder if Jocelyn is going to bring up Susan Wright's actual name and history. If she even has the information. Clearly, the prosecution team isn't getting some pertinent information, like not knowing Hardy and Ellie spent two hours in a hotel room the night Joe was arrested. I seriously can't believe the big deal that was made of that by the defense. If it's an ongoing affair like they're hypothesizing, then two hours is not enough time for proper foreplay, sex, cuddling, and talking. Especially if it's part of a conspiracy to have Joe arrested so they can be together, like some Harlequin shit.

 

Lastly, I'm on board with Paul's suggestion. I mean, people really don't think about treating pedophiles with behavioral therapy to prevent them from offending in the first place or reoffending. Otherwise, we have no defense against them and basically are just sitting back and waiting until they molest/rape/murder children to act. Be proactive, not reactive. Not a bad legacy, if you're so desperate to have a legacy for a child.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Automne

[solotrek]

How did Miller not know about Joe beating the crap out of some random dude while on duty? Like, I get not knowing about the clandestine meetings with Danny, but beating the shit out of somebody to the point of broken ribs? I feel like that would have warranted a phone call or something.

 

Did the ex-partner say how long ago she worked with Joe? I assumed it was before he got together with Ellie.

 

The father of the murdered girl needs to have a seat as well. What's with the men of this show, off screwing women that aren't their wives while their children are being murdered?

 

Well, I think with the blue bell photo in his office and Claire's phone calling his, we're going to see more of him. And there's probably a reason he doesn't want the case re-open.

[kieyra]

Am I alone in really struggling with accents this season? I watch a lot of UK television but I'm losing so much dialogue on this. I may have to wait till it hits Netflix so I can watch it with closed captioning.

[staveDarsky]

 

Did the ex-partner say how long ago she worked with Joe? I assumed it was before he got together with Ellie.

Yeh. 1996 to November 1998. I also checked the dinner scene from season 1 where Joe told Hardy that he moved from Cardiff to Broadchurch and then met Ellie about 13 years before. So that puts Joe's move somewhere in 2000.

 

Tom's all of a sudden lost the two things he could count on these last few months -- Mark and the use of Susan's trailer. I suspect he's going to lash out some way.

 

I'm not so sure Hardy had sex with Claire. She snorted derisively when Ellie mistook her for Hardy's wife in episode 1. But more importantly, she seems the type who, having shagged her prey once, would continue to do so.

Edited January 27, 2015 by staveDarsky

[ganesh]

I'm pretty good with accents mainly because I've seen a lot of these actors in so many other things so I'm used to them, but tonight everyone's voice seemed thick. 

 

I don't think Hardy slept with Claire either. It seems too obvious, and I figure there's got to be one guy not screwing around on his wife. 

 

Miller and Hardy are miserable comedy gold together. "Well everyone thinks we did it already, we can share the bed." Then the awesome awkwardness of Hardy and the wife arguing while Miller looked like she wanted to crawl under the table. 

 

I'm glad that Joe Miller was shown to be worthless on the stand. I don't think I've seen a show where the defense actually admits they know their client actually did it either. 

 

I feel somewhat vindicated with the boxing analogy because I've been saying a few times that the prosecutor had more of a long term strategy in mind. Although, they do seem to be behind on some of the new facts being introduced. I think the defense is just running out of gas. I don't think they're going to shoot themselves in the foot, but they just don't have much but wild allegations. 

 

Hardy's case just got really interesting too. 

 

In the USA, you usually can't just bring in surprise witnesses can you? Doesn't all the potential witnesses have to be disclosed up front?

[solotrek]

I'm glad that Joe Miller was shown to be worthless on the stand. I don't think I've seen a show where the defense actually admits they know their client actually did it either.

 

I can't believe he blamed Ellie during his mock trial. Ugh. No character redemption ever for him.

[Eri]

I am very sick of Olly. He's been an unlikeable character ever since he posted Danny's death on Twitter without the family's knowledge and he still chooses to take the unethical high ground on making situations considerably worse. I wish he'd leave Broadchurch for good.

 

I was actually pretty amused at our detective duo sharing a hotel room. I cannot see them having an affair and so glad the writers didn't go there.

 

Miller: So did you sleep with Claire?
Hardy: Go to sleep Miller..

 

And darn it if I didn't tear up at Hardy being emotional/human in the beginning as it shows how haunted he is by this case. I don't think I can handle a sad Tennant :(

Edited January 27, 2015 by Eri

[Llywela]

How did Miller not know about Joe beating the crap out of some random dude while on duty? Like, I get not knowing about the clandestine meetings with Danny, but beating the shit out of somebody to the point of broken ribs? I feel like that would have warranted a phone call or something.

It was before Ellie met Joe, when he was still working at the non-existent 'Cardiff City Hospital' (no such place), in 1998, apparently - he moved to Broadchurch a couple of years later.

 

This show always makes me really anxious. I sit through every episode just waiting for something else awful to happen to someone. I do appreciate, though, the way it continues and subverts the traditional murder mystery story - how many murder mysteries over the years have ended with a killer being dramatically unveiled, as if that's all that's required for justice to be done - so it's a nifty twist to continue that story and demonstrate that it takes more than a Miss Marple putting a few clues together to make a case stand up in court.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Llywela

[dbrits]

Oh, Olly. I really wish Lee had smacked you with that hammer when you approached him for an interview. You're more like your mother than you care to admit - an arrogant, I'm-always-right twit that does more harm than good.

I'm glad to see that Marc has come to his senses and stopped his clandestine meetings with Tom. Beth wasn't nearly as annoying in this episode but I think it's simply because she had less screen time.

Lee is still creepy as hell, but my suspicions have shifted to Clare and Ricky - but perhaps the bluebells and Ricky's phone number in Clare's phone are just red herrings because their importance seems too obvious. Lee is obviously hiding something, but I do wonder if it's not exactly related to the girls' murders. Plus, Lee tried to shift the blame to Ricky and someone else when he confronted Hardy at his place.

Speaking of Hardy, tonight's gut-wrenching moments both belong to him. His tears at the beginning of the episode and the emotion with which he relayed the store of finding the girl's body in the river almost had me reaching for a kleenex. The grief was nicely balanced with the laugh out loud moment I experienced when Ellie smacked Hardy when Hardy's ex-wife left the diner. I can't believe the writers trotted out the "booking was lost" TV trope. If that was used to emphasize that nothing will ever happen between these characters, then good, but that didn't stop me from rolling my eyes.

[Ravenya003]

Everyone on this show is either an idiot or an asshole. No exceptions. A fair number even manage to be idiotic assholes. 

 

After I got over my initial reaction of wanting to punch the assholes and slap the idiots, I realized this exchange was the most infuriating: 

 

Murdered Girl's Mum: He was shagging one of the bridesmaids. 

 

Hardy: You told us you were together that night. You never mentioned that.

 

Murdered Girl's Mum: What did it have to do with you?

 

Hardy: OH RIGHT, I TOTALLY FORGOT I WAS THE LEAD DETECTIVE ON YOUR MURDERED DAUGHTER'S CASE. WHY BOTHER TELLING ME YOU COULDN'T FULLY ACCOUNT FOR YOUR HUSBAND'S WHEREABOUTS AT THE TIME YOUR CHILD WAS KILLED??

 

Okay, he didn't say that. But he should have. 

 

I'll hang in there for a few more episodes, but I've honestly never watched a show before in which I wanted to set absolutely everyone on fire.

[mledawn]

In the USA, you usually can't just bring in surprise witnesses can you? Doesn't all the potential witnesses have to be disclosed up front?

 

That's true in Canada. I remember my high school Law teacher saying, "You can't just have someone show up, surprise the judge, and Matlock wins again - that doesn't happen."

[Eozostrodon]

Everyone on this show is either an idiot or an asshole. No exceptions. A fair number even manage to be idiotic assholes. 

 

After I got over my initial reaction of wanting to punch the assholes and slap the idiots, I realized this exchange was the most infuriating: 

 

Murdered Girl's Mum: He was shagging one of the bridesmaids. 

 

Hardy: You told us you were together that night. You never mentioned that.

 

Murdered Girl's Mum: What did it have to do with you?

 

Hardy: OH RIGHT, I TOTALLY FORGOT I WAS THE LEAD DETECTIVE ON YOUR MURDERED DAUGHTER'S CASE. WHY BOTHER TELLING ME YOU COULDN'T FULLY ACCOUNT FOR YOUR HUSBAND'S WHEREABOUTS AT THE TIME YOUR CHILD WAS KILLED??

 

Okay, he didn't say that. But he should have. 

 

I'll hang in there for a few more episodes, but I've honestly never watched a show before in which I wanted to set absolutely everyone on fire.

The only characters who appear to be mature and likeable at this point are Danny's sister, and Vince.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I was so excited to see the dog again! And then I realized that I didn't feel that way about any of the human jerks who live in Broadchurch.

 

Hardy describing when he found that girl's body in the river was so painful. To be honest, I didn't need that story to give him even more reason as to why he was so stuck on the case but at least now we have another reason why he is so haunted by it (aside from blaming himself for letting the killer go free).

 

Oh, Claire. Some take out food and you're ready to fling open the door and bone this shady ass guy? The only time I liked him was when he kept telling Ollie to go away. That I can get behind.

[staveDarsky]

I do hope someone points out the height discrepancy between Nige and Joe. Checking the actors' bios, Joe Sims (Nige) is 6'3". Matthew Gravelle (Joe Miller) is 5'11" and looks shorter than that. That's at least 4" difference and hard to write off.
In the beach flashback the baldness didn't play in because the person carrying Danny wore a knitted hat. So it could have been Paul (Arthur Darvill's same height as Gravelle) or even Mark (Andrew Buchan's 6'1"). In fact, I noticed some facial similarities between Arthur and Matt when they were together.

Edited January 31, 2015 by staveDarsky

[ganesh]

Hardy: OH RIGHT, I TOTALLY FORGOT I WAS THE LEAD DETECTIVE ON YOUR MURDERED DAUGHTER'S CASE. WHY BOTHER TELLING ME YOU COULDN'T FULLY ACCOUNT FOR YOUR HUSBAND'S WHEREABOUTS AT THE TIME YOUR CHILD WAS KILLED??

 

Yeah, *that* wasn't important at all. Because no detective ever says, "tell me *everything* because we don't know what might be important later." Though Tennant did a good job of speaking in caps with his body language and a choked out, "what?"

[joelene]

Absolutely infuriating behaviour from Dead Girls Mum and most the rest of characters. The only one who didn't bother me was Miller's sister on the witness stand because at least that was consistent behaviour and was meant to be played as stupid.

I wonder if that's it for suspects in the Sandbrook case: Ashworth, Claire and the father. If it turns out to be someone else entirely then I can't imagine their behaviour makes any sense at all. I'm assuming Claire did it since she in the middle of the triangle, and having the father done it seems repetitive of Joe Miller.

[solotrek]

Murdered Girl's Mum: He was shagging one of the bridesmaids.

 

Hardy: You told us you were together that night. You never mentioned that.

 

Murdered Girl's Mum: What did it have to do with you?

 

Hardy: OH RIGHT, I TOTALLY FORGOT I WAS THE LEAD DETECTIVE ON YOUR MURDERED DAUGHTER'S CASE. WHY BOTHER TELLING ME YOU COULDN'T FULLY ACCOUNT FOR YOUR HUSBAND'S WHEREABOUTS AT THE TIME YOUR CHILD WAS KILLED??

 

Okay, he didn't say that. But he should have.

 

What is it with parents of dead/missing kids and their unwillingness to help?

 

Mark Lattimer - Why the hell should I tell you where I was the night my son was murdered? Go do your job.

Kate - Why is it important to tell you about the family dynamic prior to our kids death? Go do your job.

 

I do hope someone points out the height discrepancy between Nige and Joe. Checking the actors' bios, Joe Sims (Nige) is 6'3". Matthew Gravelle (Joe Miller) is 5'11" and looks shorter than that. That's at least 4" difference and hard to write off.

If the beach flashback the baldness didn't play in because the person carrying Danny wore a knitted hat. So it could have been Paul (Arthur Darvill's same height as Gravelle) or even Mark (Andrew Buchan's 6'1"). In fact, I noticed some facial similarities between Arthur and Matt when they were together.

 

From the distance she's standing at, would she be able to tell that height difference? Unless the 2 people are standing next to each other or are forced to recreate the exact scenario and have her stand from the same distance to judge, not too sure the height is a big deal. TBH, I'm not sure how great a witness she is, because from the clips of her flashbacks of that night, I just see a random figure moving a body about. For her to be able to identify exactly who it would be is kind of suspicious in itself. Surely her testimony is easily ripped apart.

 

I will say that despite how creepy Susan is, I like how she's kind of nudging Tom back to Ellie. It's kind of like what happened to her family, and I'd like to think she's at least trying to fix that. Mark as well a bit too.

 

I don't get Tom. I know he's a dumb teen, but didn't he abandon his mom to live with his aunt? How is this her fault?

[joelene]

I don't get Tom. I know he's a dumb teen, but didn't he abandon his mom to live with his aunt? How is this her fault?

I don't understand his motivation at all either and it makes me hate him. Unless Ellie did or said something we haven't seen yet, but I have a hard time imagining she would be anything but extra attentive and caring to him after what happened.

Another thing that drove me bonkers was that we didn't see a continuation of Ellie on the stand. I guess we're supposed to think that Jocelyn didn't come to her defense at all then? The fuck? Perhaps the judge told them Jocelyn wasn't allowed to because the jury is smart enough to figure it out for themselves.

Edited January 27, 2015 by joelene

[Llywela]

I don't get Tom. I know he's a dumb teen, but didn't he abandon his mom to live with his aunt? How is this her fault?

Because he's 12 years old and 12-year-olds are not known for their calm, reasoned rationale? The kid is messed up and angry - he had a falling out with his friend, and then that friend was murdered, and then he was told it was his beloved dad who did it...his whole universe has disintegrated. He's angry and grieving and has no one to lash out at but his mum, because she's all that's left. Of course he's angry with her. She was part of the police investigation that led to his father's arrest. From his point of view, she failed to protect him - failed to protect him from his father's guilt and failed to protect him from the repurcussions, which include the loss of his stable home and the loss of his stable family. Joe was the primary caregiver for the children, Ellie was the mum who was always at work. Now Joe's gone and from Tom's point of view Ellie is the reason why - she's the one who took his dad away, the one who ripped his universe into shreds by telling him the reason why - he doesn't want to have to believe that his dad murdered his best friend, so instead he's angry with his mum for saying that's what happened.

 

Blaming her isn't logical, from our point of view, because we are outsiders watching someone else's story, we know what Ellie has been through, we understand the bigger picture, we know that none of it was her fault. But for a confused, upset pre-teen, though, it absolutely makes sense that he would blame her, because kids are not logical and there's no one else he can blame. Hopefully over the remaining episodes we'll see him finding his way back to her, and that will be the start of true healing for them both, they'll be able to move forward again as a family. For now, though, both of them are in limbo - like everyone else - pending the outcome of the trial.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Llywela

[ganesh]

Because he's 12 years old and 12-year-olds are not known for their calm, reasoned rationale?

 

12? I have 18 y/o boys in my class and they're idiots. He doesn't strike me as OOC for a teen.

[joelene]

My gripe with Tom is that he said his mum doesn't want him, or something to that effect. Whaa? Had he said "I hate her" or something similar it wouldn't bother me as much.

Edited January 27, 2015 by joelene

[kieyra]

Yes, the thing with Ellie's kids has been super weird. You don't let a 12 year old call the shots and decide he's going to break up with his remaining parent. He may think he hates her right now, but they need to be together at this of all times. And doesn't she have a baby somewhere or something? I get that she blames herself for being a crap parent and maybe feels like she doesn't deserve to have her kids with her, but it doesn't reflect well on her that, again, she's allowing her guilt to force her to let the 12yo call the shots in the family.

[GoldenHera]

Yes, the thing with Ellie's kids has been super weird. You don't let a 12 year old call the shots and decide he's going to break up with his remaining parent. He may think he hates her right now, but they need to be together at this of all times. And doesn't she have a baby somewhere or something? I get that she blames herself for being a crap parent and maybe feels like she doesn't deserve to have her kids with her, but it doesn't reflect well on her that, again, she's allowing her guilt to force her to let the 12yo call the shots in the family.

 

 

I completely agree. This situation reminds me of a scene in Transparent in which one of the daughter's confronts Maura about being allowed to cancel her bat mitzvah. She says, '13 year old's don't make these decisions.' And that is completely true. Tom is pushing Ellie away but teenagers do that. Unfortunately, because deep down Ellie does feel as though she has let down the family, Ellie is allowing Tom to dictate the way their family dynamic is progressing. Tom needs his mom, hopefully Ellie is able to compose herself in time to reconnect with her son. 

 

I'm starting to get the feeling that Lee is actually Claire's thrall and not the other way around. He is definitely hiding something but she strikes me as a master manipulator. She is way stronger than the victimized persona she projects to Ellie and Alec. 

[ganesh]

Oh, no doubt. It's just a matter of time to see when she reveals herself for what she really is.

[staveDarsky]

A few points. First, to clarify my post about the height differences, what it comes down to is Nigel has a noticeably different build from Joe and I think it's striking enough to be noticed from a distance. In the end her pointing the finger at Nige is completely vindictive and not truthful, just as Lucy's statement that it was definitely Joe she saw was to help nail the case against him. Neither statement on the stand can be trusted.

 

The prosecution called Ellie to the stand so Jocelyn had already had her turn. I know on US legal shows they recall witnesses, but don't know what the practice is in the UK. The defense had also finished with Ellie because Bishop thanked her as the last line in episode 3. Frankly, I do hope there's some recalling of witnesses to the stand. At the very least, Hardy needs another go around.

 

I'm betting that no matter what reason Tom gave Ellie for rejecting her,

he was more involved in the events leading to Danny's death and doesn't want to be around Ellie for fear she realizes it

. Remember, he's the one who deleted all the messages to/from Danny on his phone and also trashed his own computer. He's hiding something.

Now that Mark's ended their meetups and Susan's ended his use of the trailer, I'm guessing we'll see Tom lose control and reveal what's really been going on.

[Automne]

OT, but playing with Six Degrees of David Tennant, I'm watching  Secret Diary of a Call Girl on Showtime Anytime and the actor who plays Lee Ashworth plays Billie Piper's Belle/Hannah's love interest in the third season. I couldn't place him at first, but I had a strong dislike because I knew he played a character I hated on another show. His character on SDoaCG isn't so bad (yet), but his Lee Ashworth is ruining everything.

[dbrits]

OT, but playing with Six Degrees of David Tennant, I'm watching Secret Diary of a Call Girl on Showtime Anytime and the actor who plays Lee Ashworth plays Billie Piper's Belle/Hannah's love interest in the third season. I couldn't place him at first, but I had a strong dislike because I knew he played a character I hated on another show. His character on SDoaCG isn't so bad (yet), but his Lee Ashworth is ruining everything.

James D'Arcy. And Broadchurch is really tainting my enjoyment of Agent Carter because I'm not supposed to think "manipulative creep" every time Jarvis strides across my TV screen.

[staveDarsky]

James D'Arcy. And Broadchurch is really tainting my enjoyment of Agent Carter because I'm not supposed to think "manipulative creep" every time Jarvis strides across my TV screen.

And yet we're going to have to change our thoughts in the other direction when Tennant appears on the Marvel Comic show "Jessica Jones", because he's going to be nasty, apparently.

Getting back to Broadchurch, a real theme this year is about intimacy.

The parallel of Tom hanging out with Mark after Danny and Joe had previously been visiting privately is the most illustrative. While Joe and Danny were hugging and seeking some sort of comfort (according to Joe's account in s1e8), Mark ended up using Tom as a psycho-therapist of sorts. Neither seems appropriate to the general viewing public, but on description alone, are they so wrong to seek a hug or share thoughts and feelings.

Hardy and Miller's acrimonious friendship is also undergoing changes in intimacy. Hardy's letting some cracks form in the walls he's put around himself and revealed his deeper feelings with regard to the Sandbrook case. At the same time, Ellie's evolving and building up a wall with regard to how easily she trusts people and what they tell her. She's also taking a risk and standing up for herself where in the past she expressed what she thought others wanted to hear to keep her in their good graces. In series 1, when intimacy to her meant greeting everyone warmly and smiling, series 2 has her expressing her inner feelings, especially when she disagrees with others like Beth and Hardy. And by doing that she's actually becoming more intimate with them.

 

Mark and Beth, on the other hand, seem to be in trouble. Mark is committed to the baby but not to Beth. And Beth is now seeking an outlet in charity work, not by trying to talk to Mark in a meaningful way.

 

Tom is the one who is most in my cross hairs. I suspect he found out about his dad and Danny and was jealous of Danny -- hence the fight they had before Danny's death. I'm sure it didn't help that during the day, he had competition for his father's love from his little brother Fred after 10 or so years of being an only child. No matter who ultimately killed Danny, history is sort of repeating itself for Tom in that he'd no sooner found a play buddy in Mark than he's lost him to newborn Lizzie Latimer. He's also just lost his hangout and the open access to Susan's dog that she promised to him in series 1. His aunt clearly couldn't give a toss about him since he can sneak out to a trailer park at any time. His dad's in jail and his mum works in another county. Tom is alone and in need of a confidant before he blows up.

Yes, he should be turning to Ellie, but I think he's scared of her finding out something and that's why he doesn't want to be with her. The simplest conclusion is that he was involved in Danny's death. But there could be something else.

Edited January 28, 2015 by staveDarsky

[Eri]

Since Season 1, I was under the assumption that Tom had killed Danny and Joe was covering for him. I'm surprised that he hasn't been brought to testify yet or that no one has used the deleted messages or broken laptop as evidence. I never cared for Susan but love her dog, her only purpose is to bring conflict and be vengeful as usual. I think Tom cares more than he puts on, he was keeping up with the trial and local news off Ollie's laptop so he knows what's happening. I wonder if he'll find a companion in Lee?

 

Oh, Claire. Some take out food and you're ready to fling open the door and bone this shady ass guy?

 

Of course she would, she shagged him after only knowing him for 3 hours when they first met so what possessed Hardy to believe she was capable of having self control and being on her best behaviour in the house alone is beyond me. I want to believe he did sleep with Claire but now that her indiscretions are starting to show, I can't be certain.

 

On a side note, I like both barristers. Sharon really impressed me on how articulate she was to up her game to build a good defense. She's definitely clever but I think part of her knows Joe is the killer even when her junior admitted it.

[solotrek]

Since Season 1, I was under the assumption that Tom had killed Danny and Joe was covering for him. I'm surprised that he hasn't been brought to testify yet or that no one has used the deleted messages or broken laptop as evidence.

 

I was assuming the writers  are waiting to show us how messed up Tom is emotionally before they let him testify. This episode kind of upped the Tom is not handling things well feel of the show. Both defense and prosecutor would have to suck to not bring up the most obvious witness.

 

See, I always thought there was something going on with Paul, that's why he kept showing up in the prison. And also staveDarsky brought up the height thing. But since we barely see him, who knows. I'm kind of surprised we haven't seen Paul on the stand actually, because he was the person who had the broken laptop after Tom broke it to give to Hardy. Since the laptop was crucial evidence, they kind of have to question everyone who handled it, no?

[ganesh]

She's definitely clever but I think part of her knows Joe is the killer even when her junior admitted it.

 

Oh, I don't think there's any doubt. Her response was "stfu. everyone is entitled to a defense." Yes, they are. Most, if not all, of her questioning can be easily discounted. Whether Hardy beat up Miller in the unrecorded conversation, etc. You can produce medical records easily to discount that. I'm still sticking with the strategy that the prosecutor is letting the defense

 

Usually, we watch tv and the defense is trying to get the client off on some technicality. Here I think it's "I'm poking holes in everything. If they have legit responses to it, well, I did my job."

[PepperMonkey]

Claire's beyond shady herself.

 

She keeps talking about how she can't resist the guy, he's addictive, but I think it's the other way around. He can't seem to stay away from her and wants her back so badly, everything he does is to be near her.

 

I hope they're not going down the road of Tom having done the murder and Joe covering up for him.

[Llywela]

Claire's beyond shady herself.

The show has at least been overt about that - Miller told Hardy she considered Claire a suspect and he agreed, that's part of the reason he's kept Claire close, to keep an eye on her because he suspects her of being involved in the killing.

[joelene]

I hope they're not going down the road of Tom having done the murder and Joe covering up for him.

There was a flashback of Joe killing Danny last season so that seems highly unlikely. I don't think they can take that back.

[dbrits]

There was a flashback of Joe killing Danny last season so that seems highly unlikely. I don't think they can take that back.

Are we to assume the flashback was actually what happened or was the flashback just Joe's confession which he's now recanted?

[ganesh]

It actually happened. The evidence Hardy and Miller uncovered throughout last season culminated in the confession. Actually changing the killer undermines the entire show. 

 

If this was a USA show, at this point, there'd still be 2 or 3 people who could have done it and we'd be guessing if Miller actually did. I don't think that's the point of the show though. 

[mledawn]

How are we able to assume Joe is a reliable narrator? He could very well be protecting Tom, or someone else. I am not saying that is the case but to rule out Joe making up elements of the story is not out of the realm of possibility.

[ganesh]

The show is called Broadchurch though. Not the Broadchurch Murder. Or Child of Broadchurch. In the first series, Broadchurch was being investigated within the context of the murder. In this second series, Broadchurch is on trial. I think flipping it on the actual killer wouldn't be what the show is about.

[mledawn]

I want it to stay Joe, I hope it stays Joe, but I am also prepared that it not be Joe because television.

[joelene]

Because television indeed. Still, if they change killer I will eat my hat and coat and all of the clothes.

I don't even think the flashback happened that way though, did it? It wasn't Joe sitting down going, "I met Danny that night..." *que flashback*. I think we just see the event as it happened after Hardy finds Joe in the shed. Then we're at the police station. It wasn't really narrated as such, if I remember correctly.

[daihughes]

My humble opinions...

[staveDarsky]

You're right, Joelene. The flashback was not narrated. It just started with the caption "59 days earlier". I just rewatched it. Something stuck out in that last episode. When Mark went to the jail to see Joe after the arrest, Joe told him he put Danny's body on the beach so they'd know he was cared for. Another thing I noticed - Ellie didn't start  hitting Joe until Joe said he wanted to see Tom.

Also in s2 e4, when Mark tells Tom they have to stop their meetups, Tom pointedly says "so you're just going to leave me like my dad left" --  making it sound like Joe left Tom for Danny. This is looking very bad for Tom the more I go back and check episodes.

Edited February 2, 2015 by staveDarsky

[fresiaa]

Tom can not be the killer. The post mortem concluded "strangulation with adult large hands".

[staveDarsky]

I was thinking it could be possible that Tom suffocated Danny to the point of brain damage, Joe was there, recognized Danny was pretty much gone and finished him off with his hands to cover up Tom's guilt. They wouldn't have been looking for signs of suffocation (or another cause) with the obvious signs of strangulation.
Something along those lines. Tom's just way too suspicious not to have been involved.

Edited February 2, 2015 by staveDarsky

[secnarf]

Just because we saw the "flashback", that doesn't necessarily mean that that is exactly what happened. I believe we saw what Joe was telling Hardy, because showing it is more interesting/descriptive than listening to Joe actually say the words. I'm not convinced that Joe was the only one involved. However, while I don't believe for a second that Tom actually strangled Danny - he wouldn't have had the strength and his hands were probably too small - I do think he is involved in some way.

 

Gracepoint spoiler:

In Gracepoint, they initially showed the flashback of Joe killing Danny, and then later a second one of Tom actually being the one to (accidentally) kill Danny. So, it could happen. In Gracepoint though, the manner of death was different (blunt force trauma to the head, rather than strangling), and that needs to be accounted for.

[Nijntje]

In the USA, you usually can't just bring in surprise witnesses can you? Doesn't all the potential witnesses have to be disclosed up front?

That's true in Canada. I remember my high school Law teacher saying, "You can't just have someone show up, surprise the judge, and Matlock wins again - that doesn't happen."

 

Actually, in Canada, the defence doesn't have to disclose witnesses except for expert witnesses.

Bit on defence disclosure from the Canadian Bar Association

Edited February 13, 2015 by Nijntje

[Llywela]

And in this episode the new witness was disclosed to the other team, who discussed whether or not to oppose it. They chose not to, so the new witness was allowed.

[staveDarsky]

The e-books that were published following each episode give a little detail people are wondering about, not seen in series 2. Since they were written under the supervision of Chris Chibnall they're fairly close to canon. I'll put the little bit of detail we learn from each book into the corresponding episode thread.

 

From the e-book for episode 4, written in Tess' voice the day Alec finds Pippa's body:

• Something called Weil's disease may have contributed to Hardy's heart problems. It's caused by a bacterial infection and can attack one or more organs in the body. The sort of bacteria that might come from water that had rotting human or animal tissue in it. Hardy nearly drowned retrieving Pippa's body. He likely swallowed water. And in the book, in typical Hardy fashion, he checked himself out of emergency against the doctors' wishes to monitor him for infection, specifically Weil's Disease. It adds to the personal tragedy Alec suffered because of the Sandbrook case.
• Tess was going to end the marriage much earlier than the day of the pendant theft. She was trying to figure out how to tell Hardy when her ebook starts. The affair had been going for a while. But in the wake of Alec finding Pippa dead, Tess realized she had to postpone telling him.

[Raingirlkm]

Thank you so much for sharing these details! I really hope the e-books wind up being available at a reasonable price in the US. I'd like to read them, but right now it would cost more than the series on DVD. Thanks, again. I really appreciate it.