Lightning Rods: Gender, Race, Homosexuality and Other Sensitive Topics

[Oscirus]

To be fair, she will be making some decisions. I'm guessing the menfolk will be nice enough to let her decide whats for dinner.

[bettername2come]

Arrow's had a few friendships between women (Laurel/Thea, Thea/Sin, Thea/her friends back in the first season that later vanished from the show, Laurel/Joanna, Moira/her attorney, Felicity/Sara, and now Felicity/Laurel and Laurel/Nyssa) but they've all generally been sidelined.  

 

I'm really hoping that Flash explores a Caitlin/Iris friendship.

I think it's interesting that last night's episode had Felicity bonding with both Caitlin and Iris. As soon as both of them saw her, it was all smiles and hugs. I'd like to see more of a Caitlin/Iris friendship, although I don't feel like they'd click as well as they do with Felicity.

[Actionmage]

I'd like to see more of a Caitlin/Iris friendship, although I don't feel like they'd click as well as they do with Felicity.

 

I'd like them to become friends as well, because they are so different. Not exactly opposites, but both women are smart and can think on their feet. I also believe that Caitlin could be a better conduit for appreciating the sciences that Iris was ducking earlier in the season.  Barry seems all about the sciences, but Caitlin seems able to communicate her information easier than Barry. Also, it was Wells and Cisco expositioning /explaining to Joe about time-travel, not Barry.

 

I also like that folks are expressing a wish for more Tina McGee. She is a cool science lady and we need more on our TVs. Maybe Clarissa, Dr. Stein's wife, can be a retired scientist or a retired lawyer. There's bound to be a science not covered by Caitlin or Cisco or Wells, or at least one they aren't specialists in. I'd say cop, as a nod to her Megan Russert character ( from Homicide: Life on the Street), but an actual law-knowing ally could help them. Or even have Jean Loring, Moira Queen's attorney, confab with her.

[FurryFury]

Maybe Clarissa, Dr. Stein's wife, can be a retired scientist or a retired lawyer.

 

If she is, it's probably going to be on the spin-off with Dr. Stein himself.

 

I also like that folks are expressing a wish for more Tina McGee. She is a cool science lady and we need more on our TVs.

 

I also think that it's interesting that she already has some kind of a relationship with Thawne!Wells (do we need a name for him?)

[CabotCove]

I'm guessing the menfolk will be nice enough to let her decide whats for dinner.

 

Ha ha ha. 

 

The hate that Iris gets, mirrors and echoes the hate that Lana got and it's ....disturbing when you consider *why* that is

 

Yeah. It probably is much worse with Smallville as  the racial hate wasn't even acknowledged. It was easier for some people to get away with it too as the show didn't even acknowledge the actress' race and the character was treated as white. Yes there were some problems with the character, but the hate seemed to go beyond narrative/characterization reasons. 

 

 

Her race has nothing to do it. She was just too perfect and everyone fell in love with her. That just made her boring

 

If she is perfect, then why do people always tend to find a million faults/flaws in these kind of characters (Lana/Iris/Laurel). Kind of contradictory. 

Edited April 16, 2015 by Conell

[Lokiberry]

Ha ha ha. 

 

Yeah. It probably is much worse with Smallville as  the racial hate wasn't even acknowledged. It was easier for some people to get away with it too as the show didn't even acknowledge the actress' race and the character was treated as white. Yes there were some problems with the character, but the hate seemed to go beyond narrative/characterization reasons. 

 

 

If she is perfect, then why do people always tend to find a million faults/flaws in these kind of characters (Lana/Iris/Laurel). Kind of contradictory. 

My experience in Smallville fandom showed me two primary reasons why Lana was hated:

 

1) She was an insufferable Mary Sue

2) She was in the way of several popular ships: Chlark, Clex, and Chlois (which is baffling to me since Clark spent most of the series being a moronic douchebag, but whatever revs your motor, I guess)

 

You may not agree with the above, but they are understandable, non-racially motivated reasons for people to hate Lana. It is unfair to accuse people of racism because they don't like a character or ship that you do. It's just fundamentally unfair.It also has a chilling effect on conversation. People become afraid of being accused of racism, so they don't express their opinions. Shippers of alternate pairings also become wary of having their motives question so they disappear too. And, what good does it do? The real racists are still spewing venom on imdb, and other unmoderated forums, and they don't care what anyone says.

 

Can't we just accept that some people like a character or a ship and other people don't?

Edited April 16, 2015 by Lokiberry

[Oscirus]

This week did accomplish one thing. We finally got a competent female villain whose motives weren't dependent upon a male being present.

 

I do agree that Amanda would make a nice addition to the show. She'd provide the team funding and access to a whole new set of inventions that could help him out. Not to mention that she'd likely have some shady people working for her which could add another layer of tension.

 

[driedfruit]

1) She was an insufferable Mary Sue

 

If Lana was a Mary Sue then Clark was definitely a Gary Stu and thus deserving of equal amounts of hate for it...which he never got. The terms "Mary Sue" and "Strong Female" are thrown around a lot, but both have rather nasty implications. Mary Sue indicates a OC that fulfils some sort of self-insert fantasy, which Lana clearly wasn't. Her characteristics made sense given her small town upbringing, same as Clark's. And yet Clark was never called out on being unrealistic or a Gary Stu in the same way.

 

LBR, Lana's big fault was having the two main male characters in love with her. That is generally enough to have fandom actively seek reasons to hate her. And since she wasn't a nerd or a tomboy, there was nothing to save her from fandom sexism. 

[phoenics]

My experience in Smallville fandom showed me two primary reasons why Lana was hated:

 

1) She was an insufferable Mary Sue

2) She was in the way of several popular ships: Chlark, Clex, and Chlois (which is baffling to me since Clark spent most of the series being a moronic douchebag, but whatever revs your motor, I guess)

 

You may not agree with the above, but they are understandable, non-racially motivated reasons for people to hate Lana.

Your number 2 example is easily an example of sexism though. It's a common trope amongst fandoms - called "die for our ship" and basically it's about hating the character that is in the way of your ship and it's nearly always hatred against the female character and not the male character. So, no matter what the character does, they are hated on it. And if another female character (the one you like) does the same thing, they are excused for it.

Meanwhile the male character is usually beloved regardless. It's sexism, definitely.

As for whether Lana was a Mary Sue, I cannot say - I wasn't a faithful viewer of the show.

It is unfair to accuse people of racism because they don't like a character or ship that you do. It's just fundamentally unfair.It also has a chilling effect on conversation. People become afraid of being accused of racism, so they don't express their opinions. Shippers of alternate pairings also become wary of having their motives question so they disappear too. And, what good does it do?

I agree that it's unfair to drop the racism bomb without cause. But I do believe and know for a fact that racism (both overt and covert) are huge issues in fandoms. It usually rears its head most when you have a woman of color character paired with a white male lead character. And sadly, the "arguments against it" all start sounding exactly the same. When you've been in fandoms long enough, you start to see patterns.

I think pointing out those patterns is important because sometimes racism can be internalized into upholding a system of privilege that is unearned and hard to see for many people until it is called out on the carpet.

It doesn't mean that everyone who dislikes a character is doing it due to racism, but it also doesn't remove the fact that many have their preferences due to it.

The real racists are still spewing venom on imdb, and other unmoderated forums, and they don't care what anyone says.

Your simplified definition of "racists" as only being when they are overt and in your face is extremely damaging and problematic. For the record, as a black woman, I have never been called the n-word - to my knowledge. But I have experienced racism quite a bit - but it's not overt and in your face. It's covert. And I know it when I see it.

I don't know if the Lana hate was strongly motivated by racism - but I do know that the press really hyped that aspect of Lana's casting - they were excited about it. I also think that some of the "Mary Sue" writing you mention happened because writers are put into a difficult position sometimes when writing for characters of color. They have two choices to make:

1) Do they write the character the same as they'd write a white character - with flaws? Many times they don't, because they are afraid that the character will be bashed beyond recognition. There is already the racism out there to deal with - do they want to invoke more hatred because they made the character too real and many people (with internalized racism) would be unable to cut the character any slack or give them the benefit of the doubt. At least with Laurel, fans gave her a chance in the beginning rather than beginning to hate her on sight. That was definitely not true with Iris after CP was cast. I see the writers kinda struggling with her characterization sometimes and I think it's because they're trying to navigate/guess how the fandom would react. They've actually tried to avoid the traps they wrote for Laurel, but still Iris gets unreasonable hatred just for being "in the way" of another ship.

2) As a result, sometimes writers try to write the character as nearly perfect because they don't want to give the haters any ammunition. Maybe that's what happened with Lana - I don't know. Unfortunately, this also just gives fandoms a reason to hate on the character and it tends to backfire.

But 1 and 2 wouldn't be issues in most cases if the writers weren't having to consider all of these things due to the fact that racism is present in the fandoms. I'm thinking that's why the producers, etc, told CP to avoid social media after she was cast because they knew there would be a racist backlash. And there was.

And let's not discount the fact that often when a woman of color is cast in the leading role, shows almost ALWAYS cast another white actress there as a "back up" because they are afraid the woman of color cannot hold it down on her own. Sleepy Hollow did this, and so did The Flash - even though both of the white characters are actually either 1) dragging the show down (Katrina on SH) or 2) don't even really exist in the canon of the show. And please don't use Felicity as an example - she wasn't cast as a regular from the beginning on Arrow. She got cast after she did a guest spot so that's different.

Can't we just accept that some people like a character or a ship and other people don't?

Yes. Sure. But that doesn't mean many fans won't stand up to defend said character when the "dislike" seems uneven or out of proportion - or even applied unfairly (hating a character in the way of your ship for doing something that you squee over if your fave character does it too, for example. General "you", not "you" personally).

[Sakura12]

I hated Clark and thought as someone else said that he was a moraniac doughebag. I was happy when the show became more GreenArrowville.

However I hate people throwing around rasism as a reason some people hate a character. I also hate Laurel, Katrina from SH and Duncan from Veronica Mars. Last time I checked those characters are white. It's the character I hate I wouldn't care if they had purple skin. It's the writing or the actor/actress that fails to engage me to the character.

[phoenics]

I hated Clark and thought as someone else said that he was a moraniac doughebag. I was happy when the show became more GreenArrowville.

However I hate people throwing around rasism as a reason some people hate a character.

Understood - but I hate that racism exists in these fandoms in the first place.

I also hate Laurel, Katrina from SH and Duncan from Veronica Mars. Last time I checked those characters are white. It's the character I hate I wouldn't care if they had purple skin. It's the writing or the actor/actress that fails to engage me to the character.

Those characters earned your ire. Often when it's a PoC, the hatred is there to start before a show has even aired and then (for reasons I listed above in my previous post) grow disproportionally.

What we are referring to is when the hatred is unearned - meaning, the character hasn't even done anything yet and they get trashed. I even remember some fans (on this board) attacking Iris before the show even aired with her and Girder, saying she was a DiD - BEFORE THE SHOW AIRED!! And then after that, none of those fans corrected their comments.

On an article reviewing the episode with the Clock King, the reviewer bashed Iris for her pause with the gun before shooting Clock King... it was ridiculous. And the reviewer was pretty notorious for bashing the character from the first episode. After a point, you know it's either sexism (die for our ship) or racism.

[FurryFury]

It's a common trope amongst fandoms - called "die for our ship" and basically it's about hating the character that is in the way of your ship and it's nearly always hatred against the female character and not the male character.

 

It really depends on the fandom. It happens with both guys and girls. Just look how many people killed Ron Weasley in their fanfics or turned him into an evil abuser or something just to get Hermione with their character of choice.

 

However I hate people throwing around racism as a reason some people hate a character. 

 

This. 

[phoenics]

It really depends on the fandom. It happens with both guys and girls. Just look how many people killed Ron Weasley in their fanfics or turned him into an evil abuser or something just to get Hermione with their character of choice.

That's because Hermione was essentially the only (main) woman. Ginny Weasley got her fair share of hate too - or she was just ignored entirely, lol. I've often found that when there are 2 guys and a woman, the sexism dies down a bit because the woman is at the center... and in most HP/HG fanfic I've seen, the triangle is with Hermione and Ron and Harry - Ginny is either an after thought or barely mentioned.

As stated above, the issues happen most when the man is in the center with two women being set against each other for him (by either the show or the fandom).

Also - fanfic is fanfic. I'm mostly talking about when we're discussing the actual canon of what happens on the show... and in the uneven/unfair treatment women characters get and that the women of color characters get when discussing what actually happens on the show.

[Sakura12]

I think if people were thinking that Iris was going to be DiD, it was more from experience with that other show where Iris was just going to be Laurel 2.0. Which sadly she is, maybe not the the DID part. She's supposedly the great love of the hero's life but she's being kept from the secret for no real reason.To me she's actually treated worse than Laurel, the guys in her life treat like she's some precious flower that will wilt at the slightest secret that comes her way. Joe saying that Eddie can make the decisions for Iris when he's her husband was the most misogynist thing I ever heard. Then we have Arrow killing off the woman that knocked some sense into the misogynist a-holes.   

 

Laurel was starting to get real hate around this time of Arrow Season 1, people wanted her gone. With Iris, I see more people upset at the ways she's treated and want better for her. It's the actress that makes that difference. People like CP and want her to have more to do and know the freaking secret already! 

 

Also where are you seeing most of this race motivated hate? IMDB, Tumblr? IMDB is the place where trolls breed, I used to go there but when I saw how long my ignore list was, I had to leave and never go back there. Tumblr is the same way, if it's unmoderated free for all, you are going to see all kinds of terrible things. If I see the crazy, I ignore that post and keep scrolling. Maybe I should make a Dory poster for that. "Just keep scrolling". :D

 

I don't see too much race motivated hate on this board. Some people are just going to hate the character no matter what, just like some people are going to love the character no matter what. 

[FurryFury]

Also - fanfic is fanfic. I'm mostly talking about when we're discussing the actual canon of what happens on the show...

 

Fanfic is just a representation of fandom's opinions. I've really seen a lot of love interest bashing both for male and female characters. Just look at Arrow boards, Ray hate is in full swing - almost as bad as Laurel in season 1 and 2 (and Ray isn't even in the main cast and is basically the definition of a temporary love interest). And then there are lots of female-led shows that have had their love interests being bashed in favor of other guys. 

 

 

Also where are you seeing most of this race motivated hate? IMDB, Tumblr? IMDB is the place where trolls breed, I used to go there but when I saw how long my ignore list was, I had to leave and never go back there. Tumblr is the same way, if it's unmoderated free for all, you are going to see all kinds of terrible things. If I see the crazy, I ignore that post and keep scrolling. Maybe I should make a Dory poster for that. "Just keep scrolling". :D

 

Yeah, I see lots of complaints about "racist hate" and whatever... but where exactly it happens? I certainly haven't seen it here.

[driedfruit]

Racism is difficult to call in fandom because it's better veiled. I get tipped off when people make certain kinds of comments about Iris' looks. (The Smallville fandom had a nasty habit of calling Lana animal names like squirrel due to the way she looked...). And also by the way critiques/media react to her as compared to female characters with similar roles/personalities.

 

It really depends on the fandom. It happens with both guys and girls. Just look how many people killed Ron Weasley in their fanfics or turned him into an evil abuser or something just to get Hermione with their character of choice.

 

Having been a part of the Harry Potter fandom, the hate Ron got from from Hermione/Harry shippers was nothing compared to the hate Ginny got from every part of the fandom for simply daring to be Harry's love interest. Or even the hate Cho got.

 

Yeah, male characters get hate, but it's never anything like what's thrown at the female characters.  

Edited April 16, 2015 by driedfruit

[Lokiberry]

Lana, Katrina and Laurel have all been hated with a fiery passion. They have all also been in the way of a ship. Doesn't  mean there aren't other good reasons to hate them, but it's impossible not to notice their shipblocking status. Ray Palmer gets lambasted virtually every time he appears on screen, and while the character is not without his issues, it's can't be ignored that he's shipblocking Olicity. Every time Caitlyn gets a scene with Barry that can be construed as shippy, Danielle Panabaker's acting ability comes under fire.

 

Katrina and Laurel have received so much vitriol on these forums that the moderators have had to step in and tell people to dial it back. Hating Laurel is sexism; is hating Katrina also sexism? They've both been called nasty names, and the actresses playing them have both been personally attacked. And, they both blocked a ship.  How much is sexism, or racism, and how much is shippers on the warpath against anyone or anything that gets in the way of their ship?

[driedfruit]

Every time Caitlyn gets a scene with Barry that can be construed as shippy, Danielle Panabaker's acting ability comes under fire.

 

Not really. Danielle's acting gets criticized whenever her character gets decent screentime or a big character scene and fails to deliver. The only shippy scenes Caitlin had with Barry were in 1.12 and Danielle was getting called out on her bad acting long before then.

Edited April 16, 2015 by driedfruit

[Sakura12]

I try to keep my hate to the character, however I'm fine with calling out acting ability, they are putting themselves out there to be criticized for their abilities or lack thereof. It would be the same for turning something in at work and your boss tells you everything that's wrong or right with it. I would never personally attack an actor/actress on their personal pages or in person. I don't have time for that. If I don't like them I don't follow anything they do.  

 

I do agree with shipping having a part in the hatred of a character, but it's not the only reason. I'm not big on shipping characters and hate Laurel and Katrina and find Ray kind of dull. 

Edited April 16, 2015 by Sakura12

[FurryFury]

You know, it's interesting that Lana, Iris, etc. still manage to gain some defenders, while another widely-spread (and - imho - not nearly as deserving, and definitely way stronger than with Iris) hate of a PoC female character is continuously ignored. I'm talking about Skye on Agents of SHIELD. True, the actress can pass for white, but she's half-Chinese, AFAIK, and this heritage is acknowledged in the show. But because this fandom hate isn't connected to shipping in any way it's ignored and nobody rushes to her defense. Just an observation.

Edited April 16, 2015 by FurryFury

[Sakura12]

The only real Skye hate I see is on this forum. Everyone else I go, people like or don't mind Skye. 

[FurryFury]

I've seen it in a lot of places.

Edited April 16, 2015 by FurryFury

[Sakura12]

There's an occasional person other places, it's here where it seems like everyone hates her. But it is interesting that she's hated even without being part of a massive shipping fanbase.  I doubt it has anything do with her race, more with the fact that all the characters think she's so special when she doesn't do much. Which is kind of like Lana. 

 

It's the tell not show effect that these tv writers are so fond of. That's what's happening with Laurel on Arrow right now. Let them be special, don't have every other character mention that every five minutes. 

[FurryFury]

Oh, I do agree race's got nothing to do with it, but I'm not convinced that race has that much to do with people disliking Lana or Iris either, i just find it interesting that Skye has no defenders.

[phoenics]

Also where are you seeing most of this race motivated hate? IMDB, Tumblr? IMDB is the place where trolls breed, I used to go there but when I saw how long my ignore list was, I had to leave and never go back there. Tumblr is the same way, if it's unmoderated free for all, you are going to see all kinds of terrible things. If I see the crazy, I ignore that post and keep scrolling. Maybe I should make a Dory poster for that. "Just keep scrolling". :D

Most of the ugliest racism I've seen has been on twitter and Facebook. I don't visit imdb. I am on tumblr, but I stay in tags that shield me from most of the ugliness...

[phoenics]

You know, it's interesting that Lana, Iris, etc. still manage to gain some defenders, while another widely-spread (and - imho - not nearly as deserving, and definitely way stronger than with Iris) hate of a PoC female character is continuously ignored. I'm talking about Skye on Agents of SHIELD. True, the actress can pass for white, but she's half-Chinese, AFAIK, and this heritage is acknowledged in the show. But because this fandom hate isn't connected to shipping in any way it's ignored and nobody rushes to her defense. Just an observation.

People hate Skye? Why? I like her. I'm not involved in that fandom though.

[phoenics]

It's the tell not show effect that these tv writers are so fond of. That's what's happening with Laurel on Arrow right now. Let them be special, don't have every other character mention that every five minutes.

I wonder if some of that with the writers is panic and also that they can't win now with Laurel. I don't think they can write her in any way that fans (overall) will accept - because they hate her so much. I've noticed the show not tell with her as well as attempts to make fans warm up to her by having Felicity say nice things about her...

Marc Goffman on Sleepy Hollow tried the same tactic with Katrina on SH. First a lot of show, not tell and then he would have Abbie say great things about her. That only made it worse because fans knew they were being played.

[phoenics]

but I'm not convinced that race has that much to do with people disliking Lana or Iris either, i just find it interesting that Skye has no defenders.

I can send some receipts to your inbox - I don't want to post it here - it's pretty vile...

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there, :(

On another sad note... So - this article was posted recently. In the ORIGINAL article, the author COMPLETELY left Candice Patton off the article. An article about diversity and he only mentioned Carlos and (get this) Danielle. An article about diversity (yes I recognize DP is a woman, but come on)!!! When we actually have the first time a black woman has EVER been cast in such an iconic role - she wasn't even mentioned in the article until fans lit him up on twitter and THEN he added that sad, pathetic paragraph you see now in the article. Oh and tried to defend it saying there was a roundtable - but he could have easily interviewed CP at the event (she was there). Or, you know - MENTIONED HER. But he didn't. Not until he got called out on the carpet for it.

Black women are constantly fighting being ERASED in media and especially in tv media and this jerk does this and then tries to excuse it.

http://www.blastr.com/2015-4-13/flashs-carlos-valdes-danielle-panabaker-and-showrunner-andrew-kreisberg-talk-diversity

It's amazing how people use the term diversity nowadays but yet continue to erase black women.

The only saving grace is that the fans in the comments lit the author up. And he deserved it.

Edited April 17, 2015 by phoenics

[calliope1975]

It's interesting because the same patterns happen over and over. The leading lady of the show is kept out of the secret (Laurel, Lana, Iris) while the writers (usually overwhelmingly male) give the leading male a trusted side-kick (Felicity, Chloe, Caitlin) who's either in on the secret or close enough to the leading male that he trusts her implicitly while longing for the leading lady. But the leading ladies typically don't do much, and by keeping them out of the secret, get marginalized. It's also perceived (wrongly or rightly) that the leading lady who doesn't do much is routinely praised in show for being the best person ever (Lana, Laurel.) It's no wonder that fans gravitate to the character that does things with the leading male. Add in the typically quirky best friend role who gets the funny lines and can humanize the usually too serious, brooding leading male, and you're dooming your leading lady.

 

As a result, the more focus on the idealized leading lady, the more audiences resent them (Katrina, Lana, Laurel.) 

 

Besides the bias that people bring to shows, I just think male writers don't know how to write women. Too many don't understand that you just write them as people. So you end up, over and over again, with the same tropes that end up hurting all the characters on the show. My favorite characters, Veronica Mars, Buffy Summers, and Chloe Sullivan (though I quit SV after S4) were all proactive but flawed characters. Abbie Mills was in contention for the list until she was marginalized for Katrina and the Crane Family Drama Hour. Sleepy Hollow had a whole host of issues, and I absolutely believe there was some shady race stuff happening behind the scenes - only speculation. 

 

I truly don't understand why Iris is being treated as she is, though. Like I've said, it seems they're building to something, but I can't fathom what that is. If they're not building to anything other than Iris being mad for an episode before forgiving all the men in her life who are lying to her, than I can only ascribe it to some blatant misogynistic writing, because the dialogue being delivered on screen is not a good look for that writer's room. 

[driedfruit]

I truly don't understand why Iris is being treated as she is, though. Like I've said, it seems they're building to something, but I can't fathom what that is. If they're not building to anything other than Iris being mad for an episode before forgiving all the men in her life who are lying to her, than I can only ascribe it to some blatant misogynistic writing, because the dialogue being delivered on screen is not a good look for that writer's room. 

 

I'm skeptical of how well they'll delve into her anger and hurt in the first place considering how little attention her character receives, so all this seems like a lot of aggravation for little payoff. However, I can't imagine she'll forgive the men over the course of one episode as there are only a few left and the summer break will be a chance to give Iris a long vacation to where the show picks up in the fall. 

[FurryFury]

It's interesting because the same patterns happen over and over. The leading lady of the show is kept out of the secret (Laurel, Lana, Iris) while the writers (usually overwhelmingly male) give the leading male a trusted side-kick (Felicity, Chloe, Caitlin) who's either in on the secret or close enough to the leading male that he trusts her implicitly while longing for the leading lady. But the leading ladies typically don't do much, and by keeping them out of the secret, get marginalized. It's also perceived (wrongly or rightly) that the leading lady who doesn't do much is routinely praised in show for being the best person ever (Lana, Laurel.) It's no wonder that fans gravitate to the character that does things with the leading male. Add in the typically quirky best friend role who gets the funny lines and can humanize the usually too serious, brooding leading male, and you're dooming your leading lady.

As a result, the more focus on the idealized leading lady, the more audiences resent them (Katrina, Lana, Laurel.)

 

Exactly. It's just as if there were some obviously flawed formula that writers are forced to follow. And I really, really can't understand why do they continue to make the same mistakes over and over. I mean, how could they not notice people's reactions to Laurel and do the exactly same thing with Iris? Yeah, there are differences, both good (casting, Iris not being warm, not cold) and bad (Laurel at least had a POV and the potential to become an action hero on her own, plus relationships of her own). But overall, the point still stands. The tired "let's separated the LI from the core of the action" stuff.

 

Sleepy Hollow had a whole host of issues, and I absolutely believe there was some shady race stuff happening behind the scenes - only speculation.

 

I still think there's not enough evidence for all this "Goffman is racist" stuff, but that's a topic for another board (which apparently is forbidden to discuss, but whatever).

[phoenics]

As a result, the more focus on the idealized leading lady, the more audiences resent them (Katrina, Lana, Laurel.)

Katrina WAS NOT the leading lady - that was most of the reason behind why people were SO ANGRY at Abbie Mills being somewhat marginalized and shoved aside (as well as the other POC on the show) to feature Katrina instead. There were really complex reasons why Katrina wasn't liked - and why fans railed against that writing and a huge part of it came down to fears that the black female leading lady was losing her leading status to a tertiary character who was white because "reasons".

I still think there's not enough evidence for all this "Goffman is racist" stuff, but that's a topic for another board (which apparently is forbidden to discuss, but whatever).

I don't think most of us thought Goffman was racist - just that his views on race prevented him from caring about the black leading lady he had - and it led to him either subconsciously or consciously trying to whitewash a show that was very successful before - and his attempts to make Katrina the central character twisted the show into something unrecognizable and much less entertaining. Just FYI. And yeah - best a topic for the SH board I guess - we've beaten that topic to death there, lol.

[Impish Dragon]

Exactly. It's just as if there were some obviously flawed formula that writers are forced to follow. And I really, really can't understand why do they continue to make the same mistakes over and over. I mean, how could they not notice people's reactions to Laurel and do the exactly same thing with Iris? Yeah, there are differences, both good (casting, Iris not being warm, not cold) and bad (Laurel at least had a POV and the potential to become an action hero on her own, plus relationships of her own). But overall, the point still stands. The tired "let's separated the LI from the core of the action" stuff.

 

Sadly it's not just these to shows.  Too many times the LI is put in the dark for her own good.  Then, when the truth is revealed, she either "knew/suspected all along" or she turns into a shrew with over the top righteous indignation about being lied to.  I sincerely hope the writers don't go there with Iris.

[Actionmage]

Then, when the truth is revealed, she either "knew/suspected all along" or she turns into a shrew with over the top righteous indignation about being lied to.  I sincerely hope the writers don't go there with Iris.

 

"Shrew" feels like a pretty loaded term.  Iris has more than earned the right to go off on the men in her life. Whether it will be OTT is subjective and in the hands of the writers. (That doesn't give me hope, but moving on.)  With the amount of times Barry could have been the grown-up he is supposed to be, with the danger to Iris that Barry and Joe know for sure that will be targeted on Iris, Iris needs to show these men that she is not a some mindless woman who needs a minder. Getting epically angry and keeping her distance would be a good step in showing  Barry and Joe, and Eddie, that how they've operated ("protect" her by keeping important information from her) was erroneous and personally costly.

[patchwork]

"Shrew" feels like a pretty loaded term.  Iris has more than earned the right to go off on the men in her life. Whether it will be OTT is subjective and in the hands of the writers. (That doesn't give me hope, but moving on.)  With the amount of times Barry could have been the grown-up he is supposed to be, with the danger to Iris that Barry and Joe know for sure that will be targeted on Iris, Iris needs to show these men that she is not a some mindless woman who needs a minder. Getting epically angry and keeping her distance would be a good step in showing  Barry and Joe, and Eddie, that how they've operated ("protect" her by keeping important information from her) was erroneous and personally costly.

 

I completely agree with you but how long will it take before people are calling Iris names, telling her to 'get over it already!'

In my experience after a few episodes all empathy disappears and the general consensus becomes that they should just let it go, no matter how deep the betrayal .This especially true for female characters hating cute male ones. 

 

There's two ways to avoid that fate- give Iris a storyline in season 2 that limits her interaction with Barry and Joe, an actual storyline not the sidelining she's had this season. The other is a time jump and when the show comes back she's had a few months of being mad, ignoring them or whatever and both men are making genuine overtures to make it up to her. 

[Impish Dragon]

"Shrew" feels like a pretty loaded term.  Iris has more than earned the right to go off on the men in her life. Whether it will be OTT is subjective and in the hands of the writers. (That doesn't give me hope, but moving on.)  With the amount of times Barry could have been the grown-up he is supposed to be, with the danger to Iris that Barry and Joe know for sure that will be targeted on Iris, Iris needs to show these men that she is not a some mindless woman who needs a minder. Getting epically angry and keeping her distance would be a good step in showing  Barry and Joe, and Eddie, that how they've operated ("protect" her by keeping important information from her) was erroneous and personally costly.

 

I wasn't saying Iris hasn't earned the right to go off on the men in her life.  I'm all for it.  I was merely pointing out that on many other shows the love interest often comes across that way.  Often due to writing or acting choices.  I have faith in CP but not in  the writers.  Hence my concern for her character. 

 

 

I completely agree with you but how long will it take before people are calling Iris names, telling her to 'get over it already!'

In my experience after a few episodes all empathy disappears and the general consensus becomes that they should just let it go, no matter how deep the betrayal .This especially true for female characters hating cute male ones. 

 

There's two ways to avoid that fate- give Iris a storyline in season 2 that limits her interaction with Barry and Joe, an actual storyline not the sidelining she's had this season. The other is a time jump and when the show comes back she's had a few months of being mad, ignoring them or whatever and both men are making genuine overtures to make it up to her. 

 

Sadly the first part of that is all to true.  And it's often made worse by writers dragging out story lines for stupid reasons.  I'm not hoping for a time jump because I want to see Iris mad at them and I want to see Joe, Barry, and Eddie feel and see Iris is hurt and understand what they did was wrong and to apologize and try to earn forgiveness. 

[driedfruit]

I wouldn't mind a time jump if the end result is Iris finding her brass ovaries and keeping the men in her life at a distance. Perhaps a time jump can help the writers figure a way to tie her into the main plot.

[FurryFury]

I'm quite sure they'll indeed do a time jump of some kind either between the finale and the premiere or a bit later because they'll still want to do crossovers with Arrow (and maybe the new spin-off) and Arrow always does a time-skip between seasons.

[Oscirus]

I completely agree with you but how long will it take before people are calling Iris names, telling her to 'get over it already!'

 

That's already starting to happen. Actually, she's being called passive aggressive, the next step is for her to  be called a shrew. What I don't think the writers seems to get is that this betrayal makes Iris look incompetent.

 

Lost in all of this hub bub is the absence of Caitlin from these storylines. She knows Barry's secret and her only purpose seems to be telling horrible lies. At least next week looks promising for her.

 

I don't know how I'd feel about the addition of Amanda. On one hand It would provide the show with that much needed older female presence, on the other hand all the stunt casting on these shows annoy me.

 

 

 

 

[XtremeOne1]

I've already seen Iris get called

1. Childish

2. A baby

3. Immature

5, A brat

5. A Bitch

 

Yet none of these people who call her that are okay with admitting the show writes terrible females.

[driedfruit]

That's already starting to happen. Actually, she's being called passive aggressive, the next step is for her to  be called a shrew. What I don't think the writers seems to get is that this betrayal makes Iris look incompetent.

 

I've seen her called passive aggressive in relation to the group dinner, which is true enough. I do hope that's the last time the show uses her hurt for levity.

[wayne67]

I stopped watching after season 3 of Smallville but I still remember that Lana ran a coffee shop somehow in highschool and acquired extreme martial arts skills offscreen. It also bugged me that the millionaire who kept getting assaulted or kidnapped never bothered with bodyguards.

 

When there's insufficient build up for a character acquiring skills it does cause a sort of dissonance regardless of their real world racial heritage.

 

For instance I found Iris's progression from failed cop to student/waitress to blogger to journalist poorly paced and poorly executed. I wouldn't have minded as much if the writers corrected a few scenes to show that she had the right personality for that career or if there was a previous interest in the field. For instance if the writers cut that 'joke' about her making up quotes for her journalism supplemental or took out a note pad when Flash was facing off against Captain Cold and Heat Wave or noticed that The Flash looks eerily similar to her best friend. Or actually knew how many pulitzers her mentor won for writing, or we had any indication that Iris conducted research in person about any of these apparent sightings, or had any interest in journalism prior to blogging. Or googled lightning psychosis.

Edited April 19, 2015 by wayne67

[FiveByFive]

Iris is supposed to be such a wonderful and talented writer that based off of her blog she could land a job at a newspaper and yet the show continues to treat her like the village idiot. How many more people will know the "Flash" secret before the writers have to realize it's simply ridiculous she doesn't. 

 

If and when she does find out the show had better not allow her to let everyone get off easy. Her boyfriend, her best friend/foster brother and her father have all been lying to her to "protect" her. What the show really isn't saying is that they feel the need to "protect" her because she's a woman and that is wrong. No one made the "protect" argument for Eddie but she is still in the dark thanks to some "Thea Queen must never know her brother is the Arrow" level lying by the men in her life. 

 

Lana Lang found 1,001 ways to get knocked out, trip, fall, be in another room or just miss the reveal that Clark Kent is [will be] Superman every single episode. This isn't Smallville and none of these characters are supposed to be seen as stupid. 

 

but I'm not convinced that race has that much to do with people disliking Lana or Iris either, i just find it interesting that Skye has no defenders.

There will always be people that have legitimate reasons for not liking a character (I don't like Laurel as Black Canary because I loved Sarah) but there are always people that have have sexist or racist reasons for not liking a character as well. The writers, however, need to stop helping them! 

 

1.  Bonnie Bennett on The Vampire Diaries is a powerful witch everyone tends to forget exists for several episodes in a row. The worst moment the character ever had IMHO was when her mother was killed and turned into a vampire and rather than be able to be upset about it on screen, we had another (white) character relay Bonnie's feelings to Bonnie's friends while Bonnie sat in another room.

 

2.  Lana Lang WAS a Mary Sue. There is no denying that. However it was Smallville and that show was so saccharine at times that being a Mary Sue should have been expected and accepted.  However, they still wrote her like an idiot while Chloe and later Lois (the white characters) got to do all the smart, fun, intelligent things. Lana always needed to be "saved" while Lois/Chloe could (at times) take care of themselves.

 

3.  Martha Jones from Doctor Who was hated before she even shot a single episode. Also, she was on the show about the same amount of time as her predecessor who didn't get even a tenth of the hate that she did. At least they made her actually helpful as a medical student but she lasted on the show the same amount of time as Donna whose actress actually CHOSE to leave and wasn't simply written out because she was so hated.  Remember when they made Martha pretend to be a maid so they could talk about racism and sexism? 

 

4.  Abby Mills couldn't just be the star of the show who had a male counter part who she helps guide through the modern world of Sleepy Hollow, that male counterpart also had to have a wife so no one would even think to put the two together. Katrina, the worst witch ever, drags down the show. She's excessive. The time Katrina set a piece of paper on fire with a spell was the first time she ever did anything remotely useful. 

 

5. Tara Thorton on True Blood? Don't even get me started. They never let that girl have a moment's peace and then they killed her in the first episode of the last season. Tara never let anyone step on her and the price she paid was having fans of the show call her annoying and cheer when she died both times!

 

Iris has all of those problems: 

 

1.  They gave her a boyfriend who was not the lead rather than have her remain single at any point which is great for tension but we know we can't think about Iris/Barry being together because she is so devoted to Eddie.

 

2.  Everyone treats her like she is a fragile flower who will be put in danger by knowing Barry's secret. Guess what?  She has already been put in danger because everyone knows she's cool with the Flash. The men in her life have to make decisions for her because apparently she is not to be trusted to be smart enough to take care of herself.

 

3.  We only know how she feels based upon her interaction with male characters. Even then her feelings are limited to: report about the Flash, sort of pine over Barry, yell at Barry for pining over her, be lied to and take it & be arm candy for Eddie. Caitlin, who is not the lead, has had her own spotlight several times on the series, way more than our lead female. Does Iris have a life beyond them? Not that we've seen! Which is pretty silly at this point since she's not a part of the Flash's "super hero" world. 

 

4. I am so in favor of color blind casting, as a person of color who is also an actor, but people hated her after the previews when they discovered in this Flash, Iris is a black woman and the world will have to deal.

 

5.  When Iris stands up for herself some fans go crazy and find ways to express that they feel she is "annoying" even when she has every right to be pissed. 

 

I always wonder what would have happened to Cordelia Chase's character if Bianca Lawson was able to keep the role, since was offered the role originally. I suspect, she probably would have been dead after the first season. It is 2015 and there is zero reason for any of this to still be happening to a POC on a relatively progressive TV series. 

Edited April 19, 2015 by FiveByFive

[Lokiberry]

3.  Martha Jones from Doctor Who was hated before she even shot a single episode. Also, she was on the show about the same amount of time as her predecessor who didn't get even a tenth of the hate that she did. At least they made her actually helpful as a medical student but she lasted on the show the same amount of time as Donna whose actress actually CHOSE to leave and wasn't simply written out because she was so hated.  Remember when they made Martha pretend to be a maid so they could talk about racism and sexism? 

 

A lot of the Martha hate came from the Doctor/Rose shippers, who didn't seem to quite understand how the show worked,and were enraged over Rose leaving and another character coming in and replacing her. That, of course, doesn't explain how Martha was treated by Russell Davies and his creative team.

 

It's important to note that, on her own, Martha was an awesome companion: smart, brave, funny, engaging, able to inspire others; but when she was with the Doctor, all of that went away and she was a woman pining over a guy who just wasn't into her. That, in turn, lead to crap like her becoming a maid in WWI era Britain, and being subjected to racist and classist treatment because the Doctor wanted to hide from aliens who were hunting him. Human Nature, the book those episodes were based on, did not have the Doctor's companion become a maid. She basically hung around the village and got to know people. That subplot was created specifically for Martha.

 

Even at the end of her run, they had her go off and "save" the world by becoming Martha the Baptist, and walking the earth preaching the Gospel of the Doctor. It was deeply offensive.

 

No companion in the modern era of Who has ever been treated the way Martha was: not Rose, who the Doctor

obsessed over; or Donna, his bestest friend ever; or Amy, the girl who's face was seared across his hearts; or Clara, who I admit I don't really get. Martha stands out like a sore thumb from all the rest, and it astonishes me that the BBC ever let that happen.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Lokiberry

[FurryFury]

Personally, I've felt like Amy was treated worse than Martha (at least until I've had enough and stopped watching), but I chalk it up to Moffat and his awful treatment of female characters in general. I also think that her role in Human Nature/Family of Blood made sense and actually had a specific point. 

I agree about The Vampire Diaries and Bonnie (and hell, all black characters on that show). They were basically all witches related to Bonnie in some way and plot devices. She constantly sacrificed everything for Elena, and while it was par for the course when it comes to show and Elena, it was jarring even for them.

 

5.  When Iris stands up for herself some fans go crazy and find ways to express that they feel she is "annoying" even when she has every right to be pissed.

 

Thing is, even when she has every right to be pissed, it still IS annoying to watch. I don't blame Iris because I usually try to blame writers in such cases, though. But this whole Barry/Iris/Eddie thing is horribly written and hard to watch, and as usual with clichéd love triangles, the center of it suffers the most in people's eyes. It's not really the fans' fault that they express their feelings. Should they just ignore that they dislike something simply because of her race? It's damned if you do (you get blamed by Iris' defenders), damned if you don't (the writers will think everything's a-OK and continue to marginalize Iris and treat her like a precious object not allowed to take part in the action). For me, I've made my choice and prefer to express my opinion by stating that the writing for Flash is misogynist and frankly offensive. I doubt that it will reach the writers' eyes because I'm not on Twitter/Tumblr/etc., though.

Edited April 19, 2015 by FurryFury

[Oscirus]

Let's be honest, turning Iris black was a double edged sword. She gets a lot of hate because of her race, but she also gets quite a few defenders for the same reason. Does this even things out on both sides? Probably not, but I'll let others with actual numbers argue that.

 

The problem with this situation is that Iris has always been in a no win situation. Either she's an incompetent reporter who fell into her job due to her fascination with Flash, or she's someone who let her father (and probably Barry) talk her out of her dream job and wound up with the reporter job after desperately trying to prove to her BFF that she was serious about the Flash blogging.

 

Ignoring Barry's feelings for Iris, the way he treats her is the way one would treat their little sister. Compare his treatment of her with Oliver's treatment of Thea. I legitimately can't see them as a couple especially when Eddie treats her like an actual adult.

 

I know I keep pounding this drum but the overuse of  crossovers is pretty much screwing this storyline.  Instead of developing Iris's character and showing the viewers both sides of the argument, all they're showing is the men conspiring to keep things from her while she remains blissfully aware while trying to fight her emerging feelings to Barry. Stop trying to develop other DC shows and just work on developing this one.

[FurryFury]

I know I keep pounding this drum but the overuse of  crossovers is pretty much screwing this storyline.

 

Crossovers are not the problem here, at all. I'm quite sure that if there were none, both Iris and Caitlyn would have still suffered the same awful treatment with their storylines being all about men, their characterization given lowest priority, etc. (although Iris does get the worse treatment - but I don't think her race has anything to do with it, because we've seen the same with Laurel on Arrow - her position as main love interest is the reason).

Edited April 19, 2015 by FurryFury

[Oscirus]

Before the midseason finale aka before they realized that Flash was going to be as popular as it was, Iris had a pretty decent standalone storyline and her relationships with Barry and Joe was being developed at a fairly decent pace. This likely would've been further explored  as she got  her new reporting job.  However, once the show returned, all storylines had to be added to the main plot due to time constraints. So things such as relationships and secondary character developing took a backseat to kool special effects and crossover advertising.

[FurryFury]

However, once the show returned, all storylines had to be added to the main plot due to time constraints.

 

I'm absolutely with you - the show was much better in the first half of the season. Yet I can't agree that the reason for it becoming worse are time constraints. We don't really know that. If you've read this in an interview (I haven't seen such a quote, though), it doesn't mean it's the truth. Maybe it's just because we've now seen the true colors of AK and co. After all, these are people who've killed 3 of Arrow's awesomest female characters, none of which deserved it, who've given us Laurel, and who've written Thea manipulated by Malcolm. They were never the biggest feminists around. I'd argue that the crossovers are not the fault. The cast's not that big - it was entirely possible to give Iris a better story and more screen time. They've simply chosen not to.

Edited April 19, 2015 by FurryFury

[FiveByFive]

(although Iris does get the worse treatment - but I don't think her race has anything to do with it, because we've seen the same with Laurel on Arrow - her position as main love interest is the reason).

There can be more than one of or either issue. The mistreatment of women on most of the shows discussed here is at times ridiculous. However if anyone remembers "Nikita" another, now completed, CW show; a lot of these issues weren't present. Granted, it was a female headed show - but then again so is TVD. Nikita, Alex, Amanda, Sonya and even Jayden to an extent (before she died) were all tough female characters who managed to have sensitive sides and interesting pasts. The relationships they had with men were secondary to their own personal goals even for the non-main characters. At no point were any of the women on Nikita all about their male counterparts. They were about the mission/gaining respect/taking back the family company. If The Flash and especially Arrow could pull that off with any of the characters I'd be pleased. They almost did it with Plastique (and killed her) but then had the Peek-A-Boo's episode mainly focus on her boyfriend.

Edited April 19, 2015 by FiveByFive