Well, It Says Right Here...: All That's Wrong With Grimm

[Free]

Honestly, I think that they should pay whatever they can to get Akela Cooper back.  I think she's currently working on The 100--NBC should be able to pay enough to get her away from a secondary network.

 

That show seems to be a haven for the good writers, I know something similar happened with OuaT.

[Commando Cody]

This is similar to what happened with Charmed. I think the show runner wanted a spin-off with the two new sisters. It was the last season so he really plunged it into the toilet. The charmed ones started out as the three greatest witches ever. They brought the new witch, Billie, on to the show and made her the most powerful witch ever.

 

The show had already lost focus on what people liked about it in the first place - the relationship between three sisters who happened to have magical powers. In the last season we barely saw the three sisters together. 

 

Nick now lives with a serial rapist and their baby. His ex-girlfriend is a hexenbiest robot in a bad wig who set up his mom. 

[OtterMommy]

I didn't realize they had a good writer on staff for the first two seasons who left, and that's why everything went down the toilet. Maybe Akela got overwhelmed by the mountain of bad ideas that took over the writing room?

 

I'm not sure why she left, but it could have been for greener pastures (but I'm not sure The 100 is exactly a greener pasture.  My husband tells me it is a great show...but it is on a secondary network and has a short season....).  From what I've noticed, the Grimm writing room does a lot of "promoting" very young (i.e. inexperienced) writers very quickly.  I don't know if they think this gives them a fresh take on things (it doesn't) or they're just trying to keep the payroll from the writing staff low, but they REALLY need some seasoned professionals there.

[Free]

I've seen shows course correct when they realize they've gone off the rails, but if the showrunners continue to pat themselves on the back despite losing viewers in droves, and they just continue to do what they do, I'm afraid our show is lost to us.

 

Sadly,I've seen i happen witoth shows as well.

[kathyk24]

I think with Sci-Fi shows start out episode of the week than they become more complex for their own good. It happened on Haven and Fringe and I think it's happening on Grimm. In the guise of myth arc they add more angst on to the hero and it isn't the show it started out to be.

[Prevailing Wind]

I wish they'd hire Sara Cooper.  http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0153384/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1#writer

 

She wrote the episode of The X-Files where, in the opening teaser, a little boy gets killed by a kiddie train ride.  Anybody kills a kid right off the bat has some weird stuff going on that I'd like to see more of.

[OtterMommy]

Like the thing with the keys. 

 

How can professionals who run a TV series NOT know where they're going with a KEY plot element? How does that happen? If you want to introduce something you know you have no ending for, make it simpler. Why box your own self in like that? As a writer, you have to be able to write yourself out of situations. If you can't, you have a huge problem on your hands. 

 

When I read that dumbass quote from Kouf and Greenwalt about the keys, all I could think of is that NBC must be pretty desperate for these two to be employed.  (SWM's comment about them basically throwing things at the wall for season 4 didn't make me feel any better....except for the fact that at least one person affiliated with this show knows something is not right.)

[Prevailing Wind]

Well, The X-Files just did an Oregon-based show with a lizard that transforms into a man (rather than the other way around) and I kept thinking, 'THIS is what Grimm should be doing..."

[OtterMommy]

OtterMommy, it's so weird. Because on the one hand, I applaud them for their honesty, but on the other, I think they must be pretty stupid to just announce to the world they have no idea what they're doing. But then again, maybe not, since it doesn't seem to affect their employment. 

 

Well, those comments came from the 100th episode celebration where press were sort of just walking around and informally asking the cast and crew things (also at this event, BT pretty much spoiled the whole Juliette story line....but not a huge deal since everyone should have already known it was going to happen).  Most of the "interviews" we get from the cast are very-well tuned productions where the cast member sits on the phone with someone who does PR or something like that on the show and has a very detailed list of talking points--what the can and can't say.  Dozens of press outfits listen in to the conversation and some (maybe all) have the opportunity to ask questions.  But, when you see the "interviews," they all come from the same, carefully-guarded phone call.

 

At the 100th ep event, however, there were no safeguards to keep the cast and crew from saying what they weren't supposed to.  And, what do we get?  The creators admitting they have NO CLUE what they are doing and probably the most eloquent cast member basically saying that the show is a mess.

[DeeDee79]

So I was discussing the most recent ep with my boss and one of my male coworkers today and it became clear to me that the fans are the ones that are encouraging the writers to stay on this sucky path. For example my boss: "I'm interested to see where they go with the Eve storyline; Juliette is more interesting this way! Nick/Adalind, blech!" My coworker: "Black Claw seems interesting but Juliette still sucks. Nick/Adalind, yay! She's hotter than Juliette." Most of the boards I've been on have been divided this way; the powers that be most likely think that the viewers will be hooked no matter what they do.

[OtterMommy]

So I was discussing the most recent ep with my boss and one of my male coworkers today and it became clear to me that the fans are the ones that are encouraging the writers to stay on this sucky path. For example my boss: "I'm interested to see where they go with the Eve storyline; Juliette is more interesting this way! Nick/Adalind, blech!" My coworker: "Black Claw seems interesting but Juliette still sucks. Nick/Adalind, yay! She's hotter than Juliette." Most of the boards I've been on have been divided this way; the powers that be most likely think that the viewers will be hooked no matter what they do.

 

I think this is probably true--I mean, just look at the facebook posts.

 

However, if the show were smart, they would look at what is happening with the ratings and work from there.  Let's face it, it is a very small slice of the fan-pie talking about this show on social media.  If you line up the ratings with what is going on with the show, it *looks* like this: (warning....unpopular opinions ahead)

 

For seasons 2-4 there was a sort of consistent pattern to the show.  Adalind would spend the first half of the season off doing whatever the hell she was doing in Europe (with limited screen time) for the first half of the season.  Then, about halfway through, she would come back to Portland and get involved with stuff going on there.  Every season had the same ratings pattern if you line it with the episodes:  When Adalind came back to Portland and became more prominent, the ratings fell.

 

Now, the ratings fell pretty badly, starting with the last half of season 4 (the first big fall was the episode right after Adalind discovered she was pregnant and they continued to fall from there).  Of course, there was the added fact that the show itself generally went downhill from there.  The two main story lines were problematic--the Juliette one was, well, a clusterfuck and the Jack the Ripper/Renard story line was not only stupid, but badly executed (badly written and horribly bad effects--I think Sash Roiz did the best he could do with what he was given).  Since the ratings fell more steadily during this period than during the same point in earlier seasons, I think we can assume that people generally didn't like this.

 

The ratings went up--slightly--for the the season 5 premiere, but it was the lowest season premiere by far for the show.  And, since then, the ratings continued to fall (there was a small uptick for "The Rat King," but not a huge...).  Now, conventional wisdom would think that this past episode would have bad ratings--the trend line was steadily headed in that direction AND the show had a hiatus AND the network did very little to promote its return. But what happened?  There was actually a relatively big jump in the ratings.  Why would that be?

 

Well, what was the big thing that happened at the end of 506 right before the hiatus?  Yep, the return of Juliette.

 

So, it seems--if you follow the ratings--that this is the message that the viewing audience as a whole is sending.  They don't like Adalind and they do like Juliette.

 

Yes, I know there are, um, concerns about Juliette--they show up on every board.  But, if you look at the ratings, it really seems like the masses like her.  In fact, the episode with the largest viewing audience (not including the series premiere) was "Stories We Tell Our Young," was one of the most Juliette-centric episodes they had.  Also, if you look at season 2, there is a HUGE jump in ratings (almost a million viewers, which is a lot for a show whose biggest audience was 6.5 million) between Volcanalis and Endangered--and it was in Volcanalis that is was made clear that Nick and Juliette would reunite.

 

Okay, now that I've said all that, I'll say this...I still think they should have truly killed her and then brought a new love interest on for Nick.  There, I said it.

 

ETA: You can see all the ratings here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Grimm_episodes

Edited February 3, 2016 by OtterMommy

[DeeDee79]

Okay, now that I've said all that, I'll say this...I still think they should have truly killed her and then brought a new love interest on for Nick.  There, I said it.

 

OtterMommy I truly would prefer it if Nick had no love interest and we could just see him as a Grimm with his cohorts. Look at similar shows like The X-Files or Supernatural; attractive male leads that may have a love interest on an ep or two but nothing that detracts from the characters or story line. It doesn't make the show any less intriguing. I used to love Grimm and now I have a hard time watching the eps on my DVR.

Edited February 3, 2016 by DeeDee79

[OtterMommy]

OtterMommy I truly would prefer it if Nick had no love interest and we could just see him as a Grimm with his cohorts. Look at similar shows like The X-Files or Supernatural; attractive male leads that may have a love interest on an ep or two but nothing that detracts from the characters or story line. It doesn't make the show any less intriguing. I used to love Grimm and now I have a hard time watching the eps on my DVR.

 

No love interest would be fine with me...but I think that's too much to ask of a show with an attractive lead.  Sigh.....

 

I'll admit I never watch The X-Files and only a few episodes of Supernatural, but I think there are 2 differences: The X-Files, when it was first on, was on a "second tier" network (Fox was still young a fledgling then) and Supernatural still is.  Also, both those shows have co-leads.  Of course, it could be argued that Grimm could have had that with Nick and Monroe, but they didn't go that direction....

Edited February 3, 2016 by OtterMommy

[OtterMommy]

And I'll be interested to see where the ratings go from here. 

 

Yes, I think this is sort of the do-or-die moment for the show.  I think probably the biggest mistake they've made is this attempt to re-invent the show.  The ratings up until the last half of season 4 were pretty stable and, for a Friday show, reasonably good.  I mean, if the show had just skated by at renewal time, I might have understood this need to change everything up....but that wasn't the case.  Grimm was renewed very early in the season (I believe January) last year, which meant the network was confident with it....so why change something that seems to be working?  Sometimes they have to do that when an actor wants to leave the show--but the only actor who left was MEM, and it would have been very easy to work around her absence.

 

The Juliette theory is just that.  I used to do this sort of analysis on trends when I was working in the corporate world and, without detailed demographic data, I think that's a pretty fair theory.  Now, if the information was that they were losing male viewers but gaining female viewers (or vice versa) or the age groups were shifting, that might cast things in a different light.  But...we don't have that data....

 

Well, except for this season (er, the last couple of episodes...)  I've noticed that the 18-34 group is dropping quickly but the 25-54 group is pretty stable, which is disappointing for the show because the younger group is considered more valuable.  However, I think that also might be part of the problem--they don't really realize who their audience is.  It seems that they are gunning for the youngsters, but this is a show at 9pm on Fridays that leads into Dateline.  I think their audience is more mature than they realize/believe/will acknowledge.  Yes, the DVR numbers do help this show, and that tends to be younger viewers.  Still, maybe they need to realize that their audience isn't who they think it is.

I do agree with DeeDee's assessment. I like when people talk to those who don't go to message boards and are the casual watcher. As evidenced, I don't think the casual viewer believes what Adalind did to Nick was r*pe. It could be that the old stereotypes still apply. It could be that Nick's acceptance makes it Not!R*pe for them. Who knows?

 

I wish I had this luxury.  All my real-life friends and family who watched this show, well, stopped watching it.  Most of them stopped with Season 4, that was just too ridiculous for them.  The rest stopped after season 3...because Adalind raping Nick was a step too far....

 

ETA:  I really need to learn to get my thoughts out all at once.  As for rating from here on out...it will be interesting.  Let's say the Juliette theory is a step in the right direction...but now this is "Eve."  If we do have a bunch of Juliette fans out there, how are they going to take that?  Will the enjoy the character in whatever incarnation or do they want "Nick and Juliette"?  We shall see.....

Edited February 3, 2016 by OtterMommy

[tpel]

I truly would prefer it if Nick had no love interest and we could just see him as a Grimm with his cohorts.

 

 

I would be happy with that. But, as OtterMommy noted, it is unlikely that the-powers-that-be would let him stay single long. Thus, I would have liked it even better if they had kept Juliette sane and low-key -- if, say, Nick had told her about his Grimm-ness and they mutually decided that she needed to be his touchstone to normality and she mostly stayed out of the Grimm-y portions of his life, just occasionally using her vet skills to patch up an injured Wesen or something. But that ship has sailed; even back from the dead (sort of), she can never take on that role again. So, the writers are left with four choices: (a) keep Nick single, (b) have him date various humans/wesens in kind of a "girl of the week" model, © introduce a new character to be a love interest, or (d) pair him with an existing character, no matter how inappropriate. They seem to be going with (d).

 

Speaking of general fan reaction, I got a disturbing peek at it recently when I looked at an Adalind/Meisner fan video on YouTube. The video was cute, and some of the comments were positive, but a lot of commenters were like, "this is nice but Nick and Adalind OTP!" And along the side, there were links to various Adalind/Nick fan tributes. Honestly, I was stunned. Hanging out here, I've not encountered much Nick-and-Adalind shipping. But apparently it is out there. What was particularly striking was that this was not from people who had missed the hotness that is Adalind/Meisner -- they had just watched a video of it! -- yet they still liked Adalind/Nick better. So, it is probably hard to assess, in any general way, what "the audience" wants from this show. 

Edited February 3, 2016 by tpel

[ShadowFacts]

I'm sure it must be sort of hard to tailor a pairing to a show's audience, but there are many of us who don't give a rip about ships.  I think it is obvious the show was doing fine before Juliette flipped out and then Nick flipped out and is in bed with Adalind, and now it's sinking.  That is not that hard to figure out.  It doesn't take detailed analysis or looking around at social media. The people who are still watching either think Nick/Adalind is hot stuff, or are waiting for Eve to slay a bunch of people, or are gritting their teeth (me).  The people who can't stand this relationship garbage are gone for good (almost me).

[OtterMommy]

Speaking of general fan reaction, I got a disturbing peek at it recently when I looked at an Adalind/Meisner fan video on YouTube. The video was cute, and some of the comments were positive, but a lot of commenters were like, "this is nice but Nick and Adalind OTP!" And along the side, there were links to various Adalind/Nick fan tributes. Honestly, I was stunned. Hanging out here, I've not encountered much Nick-and-Adalind shipping. But apparently it is out there. What was particularly striking was that this was not from people who had missed the hotness that is Adalind/Meisner -- they had just watched a video of it! -- yet they still liked Adalind/Nick better. So, it is probably hard to assess, in any general way, what "the audience" wants from this show. 

 

YouTube can be a very, very scary place!  However, the fans there are even less representative than those on FB or other boards--which I guess is good thing considering some of the crap there (for any show....).  Still, YouTube has nothing on FanFiction.net.  I stumbled over there one day and the Nadalind shipping is out of control--although it is still third to the Monroe/Nick and Renard/Nick slash fiction....which is good...I guess....

 

But all that goes back to the demographics.  I really believe that the audience for Grimm is older than the show will acknowledge.  I said this before (and, again, I mean no disrespect here), but I think Grimm viewers are much more in the Law and Order camp than the Buffy camp.  There is nothing wrong with that at all--frankly, I don't understand why younger demographics are so valuable--but by not recognizing this, the show is alienating their audience.  I think that is why the ratings show something different than what is reflected in social media.  

[OtterMommy]

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2016/02/02/nbc-renewcancel-standings-week-19-grimm-outlook-isnt-as-rosy-anymore/

 

 

It does not look like Grimm will see another season at this rate...

 

This is...what?..bittersweet is not the right word.

 

On one hand, Grimm deserves to be canceled.  The show is crap this season...the writing has gone downhill and they insist on romanticizing a rape which is just all kinds of wrong.  As far as we've seen, there really isn't any reason for Nick and Adalind to be in a relationship--it isn't actually playing a role in any plot. Heck, the "Juliette/Eve" story line at least has something to do with everything else that is going on (or supposedly going on) with this show.  But Nick and Adalind?  Honestly, they could just lift that element out and it would not impact ANYTHING else on this show (again, WHY are they pushing this?)  

 

The ratings have been low enough for long enough that there should be some improvement in the problems going on this season.  But instead they seem to just be pushing things that DON'T WORK even more.

 

But....on the other hand...I loved this show for 3 and a half seasons.  It was probably the only show I would willingly watch live and I cared about all (okay, most) of the characters.  Even though things have gotten so bad that I quit watching, I would still love to see it turn itself around and get a second wind.  

 

As things stand now, it deserves to be canceled and, frankly, it should be canceled--and I'll still be sad about it.

[OtterMommy]

Either way, they either need to do something with Diana or erase her from canon. Having her floating her around out there indefinitely just continues to compound the problem the longer it goes on.

 

 

Two words, that the creators of this show apparently have never heard of: Chekhov's Gun.

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov%27s_gun)

 

Diana was born in the middle of season 3 and we saw her briefly in season 4 and...that's it.  Yet, they still talk about her.  I mean, they can't just drop her story line of course (well, they can--they drop every other story line)...but they also just can't keep talking about her with no forward movement on that arm of the plot.

 

The thing is, they actually did handle these things fairly well in the first season.  Yes, there was a lot of world building involved...but still.  For example, I thought the build up to Kelly's re-appearance was quite well done.  One of the first things we find out about Nick is that his parents were killed and he was raised by his aunt.  Very quickly after that, we find out about all this "Grimm" business and they spend a good chunk of the season working on that.

 

Then...we get to "3 Coins in a Fuchsbau" (which I think is one of the best episodes of the series).  We learn that Nick's mother at least was also a Grimm and she died because of it.  We also learned that there is some sort of organization that was behind her death and that organization is still around.  That information is--not forgotten about, but left for the viewers to chew on for 8 busy episodes (during this time, Rosalee is introduced, Juliette turns down Nick's proposal, Nick takes Adalind's powers, Adalind goes out for revenge, and both Juliette and Hank start to notice things aren't quite right).  Then, less than half a season later, Kelly shows up.  THAT is how these things should work.

 

Wasn't it episode 2 when we learned of Adalind's tomato allergy?  Well, someone should have given her a BLT by now.

Edited February 4, 2016 by OtterMommy

[Lii]

At this point, they're more than welcome to tie up some of this shit like Diana in a "magical baby dies in car crash" news broadcast in the background of a scene with characters I actually give a crap about. In fact, please do so. I'd prefer it.

[OtterMommy]

At this point, they're more than welcome to tie up some of this shit like Diana in a "magical baby dies in car crash" news broadcast in the background of a scene with characters I actually give a crap about. In fact, please do so. I'd prefer it.

 

I'm with you.  I'd give them a pass on half-assed "plot tying" for this extraneous stories going on IF it meant that would get back to the central plot and they would give it the effort and attention it deserves. 

[johntfs]

Anybody who's read my posts in this show forum knows that I'm a fan of Juliette and of Bitsie Tulloch's performances as her (Bitsie also did a good job playing Adalind playing Juliette too, but never mind).  So that's my bias admitted.

 

The thing that most drew me to Grimm was the setup and characters.  Essentially this was a show about basically nice people dealing with supernatural, not-so-nice people.  The heroes weren't dark vigilantes or vengeful hunters.  Nick was a cop, who even as a Grimm behaved like a cop.  He used lethal force when he had to and generally tried to put bad Wesen in prison and not the graveyard.  Juliette was Nick's life partner much as Hank was his cop partner.  Even Monroe was essentially his "Wesen" partner.  Life was good.  The show was good.

 

Things changed some as characters like Roselee were added and Sean Renard went from shady manipulator to staunch ally and protector and changed more when Hank and Juliette (after that agonizing amnesia/obsession story-line) were "read into" the Grimm stuff.  In many ways Season 3 was the peak of the show for me.  While Juliette sometimes plays a role in cases like "Stories We Tell Our Young" she mostly becomes an even more valuable confident for Nick and now others (helping Monroe and Rosalee during Christmas, bringing Wu to a more mentally healthy place in "Once We Were Gods).  The epic beat-down Juliette unleashed on the Klaustreich wife-beater was even more awesome because it was so rare, but still in character.  Even when Trubel was introduced, we see Juliette accepting her into their home instead beign TV-girlfriend jealous (or even real world jealous) at the idea of her boyfriend installing an attractive younger woman in the bedroom down the hall.  Even before that and despite choking on her own anger, Juliette was reluctantly willing to tolerate Adalind and her child as guests in their home.

 

The early parts of Season 4 saw Juliette taking Nick's "de-Grimm" as an opportunity for them to return to more normal lives.  It was a selfish but understandable inclination on her part.  At the end, though, her concern for Rosalee and Monroe (along with her likely perception of Nick's unhappiness with his lack of Grimmness) moved her to participate in the "re-Grimming" ritual and suffer its side effects.  Even then, up to 4.13 we had the makings of a really cool, interesting story.  How would the most "normal" (or at least civilian) person deal with becoming something that was terrifying even to other Wesen and Grimms?  After the fight with Adalind and Juliette's reveal to Nick, I admit that I was counting the days after 4.13 for the show to come back.  And then, God help us all, it did.

 

The show came back and spent the next nine weeks turning Juliette into a shitty, hateful character and trying to do a back-door rehabilitation of Adalind.  So, now Juliette/Eve is some kind of magic killer robot-thing and Nick is dating his rapist.  Just let that last bit roll through your brains like a turd made from toxic waste.  Here in the year 2016 a network television show has a story line in which its main character is falling in love with the person who raped him, while knowing that this is the person who raped him.

 

What makes it worse is that this show done a rape story before in the third season's "The Good Soldier" with Emily Rios turning in a brilliant performance as the victim of military rape.  So they know better.  The show and its writers have dealt openly with this subject in a sensitive, appropriate way and yet they're still doing this vile, absurd story that frankly diminishes that harm done to all victims of rape.

 

"Chemistry" is not a good enough reason to do something like this.  On Lucifer, Tom Ellis has a great deal of chemistry with Scarlett Estevez, the (child) actress who plays Trixie, the seven year old daughter of his partner in crime solving, Detective Chloe Dancer, played by Lauren German (yes, it's a ridiculous set-up.  He's the Prince of Darkness, she's an LAPD cop, together they fight crime.  It's also a pretty cool, funny show),  That said, there's not enough "chemistry" in the world for me to want to see a romantic relationship develop between Lucifer and Trixie.  There's also not enough "chemistry/hotness/etc." for me to tolerate a rapist and her victim dating.

Edited February 4, 2016 by johntfs

[merylinkid]

 

Essentially this was a show about basically nice people dealing with supernatural, not-so,nice people.  The heroes weren't dark vigilantes or vengeful hunters.  Nick was a cop, who even as a Grimm behaved like a cop.  He used lethal force when he had to and generally tried to put bad Wesen in prison and not the graveyard.  Juliette was Nick's life partner much as Hank was his cop partner.  Even Monroe was essentially his "Wesen" partner.

 

This.   Oh ever so much this.   I don't even like Juliette and I thought Bitsie's acting was terrible.   But I could have lived with it if they had kept it "Good people dealing with no so nice people."   Because I might not like Juliette but she was a good person and Nick clearly loved her.   Who was I to interfere?   

 

But they had to go dark.   Somehow all shows have "go dark."   WHY THE FUCK THAT HAS TO HAPPEN, I have no clue.   There is absolutely nothing wrong in your hero staying a hero.   He can have flaws, like he never remembers to turn on the oven for dinner no matter how many times he is told.   But he should not murder someone and then have his boss cover it up.   That's not a flaw, that it turning from a hero into a bad guy.   That is not even an anti-hero, that's a bad guy.   

 

Why can't the good guys stay good.   It's tv.   You can have clear distinctions between good guys and bad guys.   Everything doesn't have to be gray.   

 

If this show had stayed true to the original premise, I could have forgiven everything else.   The dropped storyline of the keys. The pointlessness of the Royals.   Adalind raping Nick (because bad people do bad things).   But not Nick moving in with her because Good People don't fall in love with Bad People.   Even the Juliette becomes a hexenbeist story could have been handled of how do you get someone who was originally good and turned bad through a potion back to being good, which is their true being?   Even the amnesia storyline could have been handled much better by remembering that Nick is a good guy and Adalind is bad.   They could have had Juliette and Nick dating, and her remembering all the reasons she fell in love with him the first time.   Since they were already a couple when the show started we never got to see that.   We could have gotten that, what drew them to each other, their innate goodness and wanting to make the world a better place.   They could have done that.   Instead the amnesia storyline was just more set up for Juliette to be "bad ass" before they really made her "bad ass" bad.

[OtterMommy]

What makes it worse is that this show done a rape story before in the third season's "The Good Soldier" with Emily Rios turning in a brilliant performance as the victim of military rape.  So they know better.  The show and its writers have dealt openly with this subject in a sensitive, appropriate way and yet they're still doing this vile, absurd story that frankly diminishes that harm done to all victims of rape.

 

Thank you for this very well-thought out post.  I did want to add onto this thought, though.

 

Yes, this show addressed rape (and handled it surprisingly well) in "The Good Soldier."  It should also be noted, however, that there were 2 other episodes that dealt with rape.

 

The first time was in season 1 with the "Lonelyhearts" episode.  I can't say that they handled rape badly here, although I think their message was a bit misguided.  Instead of viewing rape as an attempt to show power over someone, they said it was just something that is "in" people.  Because the Innkeeper was a "toad-eating" Ziegevolk, that was just what he did.  Frankly, this didn't really upset me at the time and it doesn't exactly upset me now--for this episode, I can go into "this is a fantasy show and I'm just going with it."

 

"The Good Solder" came up in the third season and, as I think it is important to note, before Adalind raped Nick.  I don't know what goes on in the writer's room and I don't know if there was a shake up or not, but I do think that at some point between this episode and the last episode of season 3 (when Adalind raped Nick), the show's own view on sexual assault shifted.

 

Now, the third episode of deal with rape was the Frog Prince episode (I can't remember the episode title and I'm too lazy to look it up at the moment...wait, was it "Heartbreaker"?).  I think that particular episode is very telling about what the show thinks of sexual assault and women (heck, and men!).  The message of that show was: Only pretty girls get raped and they get raped because they are pretty.  You can't blame the men because they just can't control themselves when under the influence of a pretty girl.  Therefore, if a pretty girl doesn't want to be raped, she needs to make herself unattractive.

 

There is not one word, one period, one space in that idea that isn't horribly wrong.  The creators of this show have shown us that they don't really care that rape is a very, very serious thing because, in the end, it all comes down to how hot the woman is.

 

Disgusting.

[johntfs]

"Heartbreaker" was episode 4.16 and fits right in with the Trail of Shit episodes after 4.13.

[Lii]

I'm with you.  I'd give them a pass on half-assed "plot tying" for this extraneous stories going on IF it meant that would get back to the central plot and they would give it the effort and attention it deserves. 

 

Yup. "Woman climbs tallest volcano in the world; drops mysterious box of coins inside" is another headline I'd be down to see in the background at this point. Just start tying shit up, people. Don't care how any more. The more extraneous threads that get snipped, the more the writers can settle down and focus on what's important (making BT badass, obvs.).

[Darklazr]

At this point the writers need to do a quick reset of what isn't working and fix it, fast. 

[Darklazr]

At this point, they're more than welcome to tie up some of this shit like Diana in a "magical baby dies in car crash" news broadcast in the background of a scene with characters I actually give a crap about. In fact, please do so. I'd prefer it.

 

In my head (LOL), Kelly returns with a dying Diana in hopes that Adalind can reverse the girl's constant aging that has taken a toll on her body, but Adalind can't and we find out the kid is really Eric's and she's dead, dead, dead.  Kelly begins to suffer with the same aging syndrome and he too is dead, dead, dead.

[Crim]

^ Isn't that what this mess was supposed to be? The show needs new writers, at least, but it won't get them, and new show runners is even more unlikely. I'd bet on either cancellation or renewed for a final season. I've seen a spin-off mentioned, and then there's the possibility of a total overhaul of Grimm itself - since there is no audience to pull for a spin-off, and the show can just shuffle story lines a bit to give more screen time to whatever characters would have fit the spin-off idea - say, Trubel, Meisner, or Monroe and Rosalee - just like it had the interminable, insufferable Adalind baby dramas before, with zero connection to whatever main plots were at the time. But... they doubled on Adalind and Juliet. The show is such a mess and the ratings drop so harsh that what can watching the ratings at this point tell them? Is anything working? If they get a new season, what will they (attempt to) fix?

Edited February 5, 2016 by Crim

[ShadowFacts]

I think they've really painted Adalind into a corner, and they could un-paint her and send her to Europe with Meisner and she can be reunited with Diana.  Juliette could be un-biested and returned to her senses with help from Rosalee, or better yet, Renard's mother.  The baby stays with Nick because Juliette is the bio-mom.  They can co-parent.  Then back to wesen of the week.  That's the reset they should have done, once they realized the huge blunder of the last half of last season.  The gang could have dealt with the uprising without the super-duper amazing killing machine. 

[Darklazr]

I would write a small arc (four episodes) that kills off Kelly, Juliette and Diana with Diana being the one that reinstates the Grimmabago, Momma Grimm Kelly, and Adalind is sent packing (I do love CC) and Meisner at the end of the wesen uprising.  The show can get back to the wesen of the week with a few holdouts from the wesen uprising.  

 

Let's rebuild the Wesen Council in Portland with Alexander, Rosalie, Renard, Nick and Elizabeth Lascelles.

[Darklazr]

Juliette is still a bore and once the wesen uprising is over so are her powers which dissipate and she's back to normal life as a vet.  

 

I would rather Kelly just died along with Diana.  Nick needs to be single and regain his focus as a man, cop and Grimm, he can date at some point down the road, but have nothing ever to do with Juliette.

 

Adalind and Meisner can still run off to Europe and have a kid of their own, but Diana needs to reinstate the Grimmabago and Momma Kelly before she bites the dust!

 

I really want Nick, Hank, Monroe, Rosalie, Wu and Renard all wash their hands of any involvement or connection with Juliette and she leaves town never to be seen or heard from ever again.

Edited February 5, 2016 by Darklazr

[orza]

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a dubious shower scene to reset everything.

[chrisvee]

I can handle Nick and Adalind if I have to but this Eve storyline with BT playing a character MORE wooden than Juliette -- yikes. Unwatchable.

[johntfs]

Rapemance is always going to be a deal-breaker for me.  I did like Bitsie's "It's chicken."  Deadpan humor works for her.

Edited February 6, 2016 by johntfs

[blugirlami21]

I stopped watching the show basically after Juliette became a hexenbiest. The way her and Nick were written for that whole storyline was terrible and ooc for their characters. And all the shitty things they had Juliette do were unbelievable.

I actually liked Juliette for the most part. She was exactly what it said on the tin, she was Nick's piece of normality. She was a mostly supportive presence in his life.

Adalind has been the cause of everything that happened to Juliette and as a result of that the implosion of Nick and Juliette's relationship. Think of any instance and Adalind was behind it. She pretended to be Juliette and took advantage of Nick.

But you gonna have Nick say that it was one of the best things that happened to him. What? He didn't feel that way when it was happening.

I don't understand how people can hate Juliette so much that they would prefer that Nick be with his rapist Adalind. All the chemistry in the world is not going to make me forget everything that she had done. The fact that his friends are ok with that boggles the mind considering everything that she has done to them as well.

The fact that the ratings continue to fall makes sense to me.

[catrox14]

Well, this show is no longer must see.

 

I'm super fucking bitter that Juliette/Eve is now in the whole fucking conspiracy.  This is so fucking stupid. I'm bitter bitter.

 

Sigh.

 

 

I don't understand how people can hate Juliette so much that they would prefer that Nick be with his rapist Adalind. All the chemistry in the world is not going to make me forget everything that she had done. The fact that his friends are ok with that boggles the mind considering everything that she has done to them as well.

 

I think it's not an either or.  Both can be hated equally for different reasons.  And they are just making Nick into a truly stupid man. 

 

I'm only watching for Renard now...but that's haphazard. 

Edited February 6, 2016 by catrox14

[Lii]

The writers should have ignored CC's pregnancy and not tied her to Nick.

 

Am I the only one who feels like it's really inappropriate to repeatedly get pregnant while under contract to a show that includes maintaining the same look as the character? Like, you're under contract, literally, to do this. If you want to have lots of babies, you should be responsible and ask to be written off, like a grown adult who wants to be let out of a contract, instead of straight up breaching it. It's really starting to irritate me that shows are being forced to write around actresses who get pregnant more than once during the run of their show when that is straight up breach of contract that would be permitted in no other medium and in no other way if online fandoms weren't full of insane crazy people right now? If my job was a massage therapist but I kept coming into work with long ass acrylics on and it started affecting everyone there because appointments had to be rescheduled and people kept having to cover my shifts, I'd get fired, because that would defeat the purpose of me having that job. Do the thing you need to do for whatever your job is, or take a break from having that job for a minute. Damn.

 

Just something that's been bugging me for awhile. Like in general, about TV. And also about freakin Claire Coffee and her goddamn devil spawn plaguing this show and forcing us into a rapelurrrrrve story, How goddamn irresponsible. 

[OtterMommy]

I believe that anyone rooting for Adalind/Nick do not see what happened as r*pe or are willing to overlook it because they're both so darn pretty. But I don't think they root for Adalind/Nick because they can't stand Juliette.

 

I'd like to think you are right, but then I go over to Facebook and all the Nadalind comments are along the lines of "I just love Nick and Adalind...so much better than Nick and Juliette!"

 

Of course, most of the comments there now are people complaining about the show....

[OtterMommy]

From the Eve of Destruction thread:

 

Am I the only one who feels like it's really inappropriate to repeatedly get pregnant while under contract to a show that includes maintaining the same look as the character?

 

 

 

Claire Coffee was only pregnant once.  The first time Adalind was pregnant that was ALL just the show trying to be clever.  The second time, CC really was pregnant and the show handled it very, very badly.  There was absolutely no reason why CC's pregnancy needed to be addressed at all.  Adalind was barely even in the show and, when she was, she wasn't even part of the central story.  They could have just taken her character out of the mix for the last half of season 4 (when she was visibly pregnant) without it affecting the show at all.  OR, they could have given her big bags, had her stand behind counters and flower arrangements, and just been clever with costuming (which they actually were!).  There was no reason for her pregnancy to even matter.

 

As for her being pregnant under contract.  It happens.  She was newly (ish) married and she had probably even told TPTB at Grimm that pregnancy was on the horizon (which makes it even weirder that her actual pregnancy, if they were going to write it into the script, was handled so horribly).  Actresses on shows get pregnant all the time and shows handle it.  But they only very, very rarely actually result in TV babies.

[merylinkid]

I think that's more a case of "Nick and Juliette have no chemisty, Nick and Adalind have mad chemistry, they should be together" without thinking it through.   

 

My pet peeve:  on tv chemistry between the actors mean they must get together as a couple.  In the right hands (in other words, not this writer's room), mad chemistry between two antagonists can be fucking awesome.   They could have made Adalind a true villian to match Nick's power as a Grimm.   They battles between those two - both mental and physical - would have been great.   Some days Adalind has the upper hand, some days Nick does.   Instead we get Adalind who is the worst witch going up against the best Grimm EVAH with the result she has his baby and is reduced to feeding and changing diapers while looking helpless.  Great use of all that chemisty.

 

ETA:   Wow, women are supposed to give up their reproductive rights in order to have a job?   Let me check my calendar what year is this?   

Edited February 6, 2016 by merylinkid

[OtterMommy]

 

My pet peeve:  on tv chemistry between the actors mean they must get together as a couple.  In the right hands (in other words, not this writer's room), mad chemistry between two antagonists can be fucking awesome.   They could have made Adalind a true villian to match Nick's power as a Grimm.   They battles between those two - both mental and physical - would have been great.   Some days Adalind has the upper hand, some days Nick does.   Instead we get Adalind who is the worst witch going up against the best Grimm EVAH with the result she has his baby and is reduced to feeding and changing diapers while looking helpless.  Great use of all that chemisty.

 

 

 

Agreed.  Also, I felt that Nick and Adalind had great chemistry....as adversaries.  What they have going on now is about as chemical as, I'm not a science person, so I don't know what.  Nothing.  That' what...

[Darklazr]

Agreed.  Also, I felt that Nick and Adalind had great chemistry....as adversaries.  What they have going on now is about as chemical as, I'm not a science person, so I don't know what.  Nothing.  That' what...

 

Adalind should have stolen Nick's hair for her potion instead of Juliette's and there would have been no need for the rape.  Adalind drinks her potion and morphs into Nick the first time to see if it works, and part of her taking away his powers is she has to maintain being a Grimm for several hours before Renard figures out her schemes and tries to get the potion to Nick to regain his Grimm powers.

[Crim]

^ With these writers, she would have ended up raping Juliette and someone would have still ended up pregnant.

[icewolf]

Am I the only one who feels like it's really inappropriate to repeatedly get pregnant while under contract to a show that includes maintaining the same look as the character? Like, you're under contract, literally, to do this. If you want to have lots of babies, you should be responsible and ask to be written off, like a grown adult who wants to be let out of a contract, instead of straight up breaching it. It's really starting to irritate me that shows are being forced to write around actresses who get pregnant more than once during the run of their show when that is straight up breach of contract that would be permitted in no other medium and in no other way if online fandoms weren't full of insane crazy people right now? If my job was a massage therapist but I kept coming into work with long ass acrylics on and it started affecting everyone there because appointments had to be rescheduled and people kept having to cover my shifts, I'd get fired, because that would defeat the purpose of me having that job. Do the thing you need to do for whatever your job is, or take a break from having that job for a minute. Damn.

 

Just something that's been bugging me for awhile. Like in general, about TV. And also about freakin Claire Coffee and her goddamn devil spawn plaguing this show and forcing us into a rapelurrrrrve story, How goddamn irresponsible. 

Claire Coffee wasn't actually pregnant in season 2 and 3. All the blame should be on the Grimm writers for that dragged out boring Adalind in Europe mess.

 

Just like this current baby mama storyline should be blamed entirely on the writers for writing Coffee's real life pregnancy into the show in season 4. Writing real life pregnancies into a show is something I think only lazy soap opera writers do.

When Bree Turner got pregnant in season 2, the writers just reduced her role in several episodes and literally put Rosalee on a bus to take care of her sick aunt for the middle of the season 2, because Rosalee having a baby wasn't the story the writers wanted to tell.

 

Adalind getting pregnant for the second time was a real shark jumping moment, because of how hated the first pregnancy storyline was. It was like the writers completely ignored all the negative fan reactions when it happened the first time. The writers really should have just hidden that fact that Coffee was having a baby and not written that into the show, and given her a few episodes off like they did with Bree.

Edited February 6, 2016 by icewolf

[Lii]

Claire Coffee wasn't actually pregnant in season 2 and 3. All the blame should be on the Grimm writers for that dragged out boring Adalind in Europe mess.

Just like this current baby mama storyline should be blamed entirely on the writers for writing Coffee's real life pregnancy into the show in season 4. Writing real life pregnancies into a show is something I think only lazy soap opera writers do.

When Bree Turner got pregnant in season 2, the writers just reduced her role in several episodes and literally put Rosalee on a bus to take care of her sick aunt for the middle of the season 2, because Rosalee having a baby wasn't the story the writers wanted to tell.

Adalind getting pregnant for the second time was a real shark jumping moment, because of how hated the first pregnancy storyline was. It was like the writers completely ignored all the negative fan reactions when it happened the first time. The writers really should have just hidden that fact that Coffee was having a baby and not written that into the show, and given her a few episodes off like they did with Bree.

 

Yeah, that's why I said repeatedly, like more than once, because pregnancies happen. One pregnancy can be written around. But to repeatedly get pregnant is nonsense, just take a break from working and go back to it when you're ready to commit again. Mainly thinking of Once here, actually. But I forgot that Claire Coffee was actually not pregnant the first time. God these writers are stupid.

edit: Merylinkid - With regards to reproductive rights - I'm the last person to attempt to suppress anyone's right to do what they want with their lives. However, there are actually legal exemptions to the laws prohibiting discrimination in the workplace based on looks and such for professions in which it matters. One of those exemptions, obviously, is the performance arts. Obviously you can't be forced to hire people who are inappropriate for the roles they're auditioning for, because it would adversely affect the production, and the law recognizes that. I believe, therefore, that once you're hired for a role, in partial, because you look appropriate for the requirements of the role, that you have the obligation to STAY THAT WAY. Otherwise you are in breach of contract. If you get pregnant because shit happens and that's life? Cool, it can be written around, congrats on the baby. Twice is just irresponsible and at that point you need to suck it up and give up the role because again, let's be real. It's no different than any other job with specific, ridiculously stressful, high-pressure requirements. Unfortunately, it's like a hundred times more difficult for us because sometimes we have to choose, at least for a little while, and then when we come back we're left behind. But that still doesn't allow us to be selfish and inconvenience everyone around us, because taking from others isn't the way to solve this problem. Anyways, that's just how I feel. As incoherent as it may be. If you feel differently I have no problem with it, and the last thing I want to do is get into a big ass discussion about reproductive rights in the "Grimm sucks ass" thread... I'm happy to hear you out, I just don't want to go back and forth, if that makes sense. All I originally wanted to do was bitch about idiot writers forcing pregnancy storylines and my opinion on it, because this show and also Once. 

 

/offtopic rant

[Darklazr]

Women get pregnant and men don't, so the writers just needed to write around CC's real life pregnancy with the usual large bags, standing behind counters, etc... and we would not have to deal with baby Kelly.

Edited February 7, 2016 by Darklazr

[OtterMommy]

Women get pregnant and men don't, so the writers just needed to write around CC's real life pregnancy with the usual large bags, standing behind counters, etc... and we would not have to deal with baby Kelly.

 

There are so many ways they could have dealt with it.  They could have:

1 - Done nothing.  Adalind was in about 1 scene per episode a that point anyway.

2 - Have Adalind take a liking to dusters and loose clothing

3 - Have Adalind take up flower arranging

4 - Have Adalind start carrying around a big bag

5 - Done nothing and just have pregnant Claire Coffee walking around (there are shows that have done this--they just never acknowledged that a non-pregnant character was played by a visibly pregnant actress.  I'm thinking specifically of Courteney Cox in the last season of Friends, but I know they've done it on a few other shows as well.  Guess what...NO ONE CARED!)

6 - Pre-filmed Adalind's scenes while Claire Coffee was in her 1st and 2nd trimesters (this is how Grey's Anatomy normally deals with it--and I *think* they've had at least one pregnant actress per season and, as far as I know, it has NEVER resulted in an on-screen baby).

7 - Just gotten rid of Adalind.

 

The fact that they did a second pregnancy was just flat out insulting because:

1 - The reaction to Adalind's first pregnancy was pretty negative, so they apparently don't care about the viewers' feelings

2 - Mathematically impossible, so they apparently think the viewers are idiots

3 - It led to the rapemance, which is just flat out offensive.

[Darklazr]

There are so many ways they could have dealt with it.  They could have:

1 - Done nothing.  Adalind was in about 1 scene per episode a that point anyway.

2 - Have Adalind take a liking to dusters and loose clothing

3 - Have Adalind take up flower arranging

4 - Have Adalind start carrying around a big bag

5 - Done nothing and just have pregnant Claire Coffee walking around (there are shows that have done this--they just never acknowledged that a non-pregnant character was played by a visibly pregnant actress.  I'm thinking specifically of Courteney Cox in the last season of Friends, but I know they've done it on a few other shows as well.  Guess what...NO ONE CARED!)

6 - Pre-filmed Adalind's scenes while Claire Coffee was in her 1st and 2nd trimesters (this is how Grey's Anatomy normally deals with it--and I *think* they've had at least one pregnant actress per season and, as far as I know, it has NEVER resulted in an on-screen baby).

7 - Just gotten rid of Adalind.

 

The fact that they did a second pregnancy was just flat out insulting because:

1 - The reaction to Adalind's first pregnancy was pretty negative, so they apparently don't care about the viewers' feelings

2 - Mathematically impossible, so they apparently think the viewers are idiots

3 - It led to the rapemance, which is just flat out offensive.

 

I think the writers just wanted to keep CC and did not think through how messed up a rape baby story really is.  However, something tells me that Adalind could end up dead and we find out that Kelly is really Nicks and that wooden chick's kid.

Edited February 7, 2016 by Darklazr

[Commando Cody]

I think both of the women in How I Met Your Mother were pregnant at the same time. I don't even think they tried to hide it. At some point Lily walked out in a huff and they didn't see her for two whole weeks. However, no babies were written into the story line - at the time. They made a joke of it on The Nanny. One of the minor characters joked about hiding behind plants or something like that. I think Claire Huxstable and oldest daughter were also pregnant at the same time. They just used close ups for the most part.  

 

I almost never see this in dramas though - I mean obviously pregnant actresses who aren't pregnant on the show.  You could tell that the actress on Leverage was pregnant. After a while, they only talked to her on a computer screen. I think both of Emily Deschanel's pregnancies were written into the show. I thought the timing was good though and it seemed reasonable that Bones and Booth would have a second kid at some point. 

 

I don't know if I would want to see a brooding, broken Nick after the death of his son. There is no solution to the baby story. They exist. All they can do is go with the unnaturally accelerated growth in a lame attempt to make the kids more interesting. I really hate when they do that, but the writers seem to think it's a good idea. 

 

Sometime - years in the future - they can reboot this show with Nick's kids. A Grimm and a Hexenbiest. They can show flashbacks of the kids growing up trying to scare each other. Diana morphing to scare Kelly - who scares her because she sees the Grimm in his eyes. The hilarity ensues. 

Edited February 7, 2016 by Commando Cody