Well, It Says Right Here...: All That's Wrong With Grimm

[Actionmage]

If you want to talk about a choice the writers picked was successful or not. this would be the place. This also includes discussions of the writers of the show. In another writing thread, the guidelines for posting are:

 

If you are writing about why the writers had a character do/say/act or not do/say/act, then the post goes here.

 

If you are writing about why a character did/said/acted or not, then the post goes somewhere else.

 

 

[merylinkid]

I signed up for a show about a guy who discovers he can see things no one else can and how he comes terms with being a cop for both people and wesen.   I did not sign up for as the Vet Turns.   They need to stop shoving Juliette stories front and center at the expense of learning more about, ya know, the GRIMM.    The show should center on him and how he reacts to things.   Not how Juliette is yet again getting screwed over because her boyfriend is a Grimm.   I could totally live with police procedural with Wesen of the Week for YEARS.   I don't need a myth arc.    I watched probably 18 years of original flavor Law & Order because that's what they did.   Law and Order.   Pretty much nothing else.    They didn't try to have a big bad our heroes were trying to bring down.   They didn't try to understand New York City.   And they sure as hell kept the angsting to a minimum.   The closest they came was Lt. Van Buren's cancer story.    But even that was just a bit here and there, it didn't take over the damn show.   

 

Give me back GRIMM.   Leave the soapy stuff to the shows that are premised on the soapy stuff.

[OtterMommy]

Here's my gripe with the writers...okay, one of them.  They don't seem to have an end game.  I mean, they introduced the idea of some bigger plan/something bad coming/etc back in the third episode of season 1 and, other than bringing it up now and then, they've done nothing with it.  Yes, there was some talk about Diana being important to all this, but even that was sort of dropped.  What do we have?  Well, we have Adalind who is too self-concerned to be part of any bigger plan.  We have the Royals, who are STILL pretty much undefined.  We have Hexen-biest Juliete, which has nothing to do with any bigger plan.  

 

I wish they would either tie up all these vague things like the keys, the coins of Zakynthos, etc and get back to a straight Wesen of the Week format or prune out these longer arcs that have nothing to do with the big bad thing that this show is supposed to be about.

[Actionmage]

the coins of Zakynthos

 

And saying ' Comics!' doesn't cut it. I don't want to buy extras in order to see how a story started on TV supposedly ends. I bought comics in the middle of the mega, intra-company cross-overs; when they were really starting and didn't buy every issue. Why start now and with a television series?

 

Fans were promised at the last Comic Con that we were going to find out about the Royals and the Keys. We were also told about a handful of wesen that were going to appear. Guess which has actually been dealt with on-screen more, to date? Yes, we have roughly seven or eight more episodes to see this season, but we haven't seen the Keys since The Inheritance, which was last season. The Royals, as ever, are undefined as of this post. They call themselves old titles and seem to have Human World positions of power, if we are to believe the news attention given to Eric's death. Other than "Because we say so"/ "The script says", there have been no reasons given for their apparent power over the wesen world. 

 

I understand wanting to accommodate an actress's pregnancy, yet they chose two such drastic choices. With Ms. Turner, they literally put heron a bus ( in order to care for an aunt) and at a time that Rosalee would have been most welcome! Since we don't know or need to know about the details of her pregnancy, I, myselfwas grumpy but carried on with my watching. Currently, the 'Adalind's preggers again and doesn't know it! ::wah-wah trombone Horns of Wackiness::' ties in with my dislike of how the writing for Adalind has gone downhill since Nick took her original powers away (S1E17 "Love Sick"). 

 

While I am happy for Ms. Coffee, why not have done the same for Adalind ( the sent out-of-town for a bit)? Let inane filler, like the mind-trip dungeon of un-fun, not have happened and show Adalind being wily, as we know she can be?  That time could be about Viktor, who likes to talk to himself and about himself, could have filled us in on all the Royal deets. Yet, I have the feeling it's because we're gonna get sooper-sized info barfs later in the season, that's why we haven't had them earlier. That and why give your devoted fans something they are actually saying they want? It's been over three and a half seasons already. They can keep their pants on, amirite?

 

I could, and probably will, continue.

[johntfs]

For my part, I'm okay with some procedural aspects to Grimm, but there's a fuckton of procedural shows out there already.  To me Grimm is show about growth, change and stepping out of traditional roles.  Much of the trouble Nick has is with Wesen who cling to old beliefs and lifestyles and are willing to kill to protect and continues those older ways.  Juliette's story, which is also very much Nick's story will let us learn more about who Nick is.  Is Nick a person who will ultimately be able to cope with and accept the change in Juliette or is he going to be "Hey, I like Wesen.  Some of my best friends are Wesen.  But I sure wouldn't marry one."

 

Grimm is about relationships and there's occasionally some soapiness that comes with relationships.  I will say that you never saw the "dedicated detectives who stomp on the Constitution while investigating these vicious felonies" discussing their cases at a vegetarian dinner party and that's their loss.

 

The Royals are fairly well defined from my perspective.  The Grimm world Royals are essentially like today's Royals.  It's just that in the Grimm, if Queen Elizabeth is less than okay with a paparazzi photographing Prince Harry getting a blowjob, she has the option to send a hundjager to rip the photographer's face off and retrieve the film before it runs in the tabloid.

[OtterMommy]

For my part, I'm okay with some procedural aspects to Grimm, but there's a fuckton of procedural shows out there already.  To me Grimm is show about growth, change and stepping out of traditional roles.  Much of the trouble Nick has is with Wesen who cling to old beliefs and lifestyles and are willing to kill to protect and continues those older ways.  Juliette's story, which is also very much Nick's story will let us learn more about who Nick is.  Is Nick a person who will ultimately be able to cope with and accept the change in Juliette or is he going to be "Hey, I like Wesen.  Some of my best friends are Wesen.  But I sure wouldn't marry one."

 

I do agree with this.  I like the longer arcs behind the WotW plots.  What I'm saying is that the longer ARC has always been disorganized, with the writers dropping one thing and starting another.  It is disconcerting for the viewer to never have any closure with any of these plots and it leads to what feels like a directionless show.  

[ShadowFacts]

 

Currently, the 'Adalind's preggers again and doesn't know it! ::wah-wah trombone Horns of Wackiness::' ties in with my dislike of how the writing for Adalind has gone downhill since Nick took her original powers away (S1E17 "Love Sick").

 

Hehe, trombone Horns of Wackiness.  Adalind's character is incredibly uneven.  If I were a writer on this show I'd have to kick my own behind for inserting another pregnancy for the same character. 

[TVSpectator]

I think that there is a lot to discuss about this topic, but here are my concerns (and some of them are similar to what was posted above):

 

1. Pretty much anything that has to be explained to us, as in background info and/or mythos of the show. This includes, but is not limited too, the Royals (why are so important, how can they hold onto the Wesen world when they are basically human and are nothing more than figureheads with lots of money), The Resistance (why are they resisting the Royals and this goes back to how are the Royals are even powerful in this modern day and age), the Keys, the Coins, Diana, Grimm powers (if there are any and I think that they have been dropping hints that Nick does have certain powers, as a Grimm), the background on the Wesens and Grimms (how they came to be, who or what created them, etc...), 

2. Ending of the angst. When I started watching Grimm, I loved that the show didn't have so much angst. It felt refreshing and great to watch characters that actually dealt with their problems then outright crying/not telling anyone about it (and thus acting stupid for the sake of the plot). 

3. Wesen of the week. I really did love that they would show us a new Wesen or expand on a previously established Wesen (like have multiple episodes about Blutbad, Hexenbiests, Bauerschwein, etc...)

4. Juliette, I wasn't a big fan of her in season 1 but now I want everything that has to do with her to stop. I don't mind if she stays and becomes a Vet that dates Nick and is friends with Rosalee but I am tired of all the drama that is surrounding her (which is the Coma story, the Amnesia story, and now her being a Hexenbiest). 

5. On a positive note, I do like that they have basically made Renard into good guy who does shady things, when necessary. I really didn't like him when he was the bad guy, but I have grown to enjoy his shadyness in the name of the Resistance/Nick/defeating the Royals all in the name of his own power (and seeing him make love to his phone seems like a staple for this show, now). 

Edited March 24, 2015 by TVSpectator

[tennisgurl]

I feel like the writers have trouble managing both myth arc stuff, and the procedural stuff. Weirdly, I like the procedural stuff. I like seeing different Wesen and seeing their society. I loved when they did more modern twists on classic fair tales, like the Piped Piper one, or the super creepy Hansel and Gretel episode. I know they couldn't keep those up forever, but they were, for the most part, a lot of fun, interesting, and it was something I really loved about the show. They seem to swing back from all myth arc and royals, to all procedural, and it can get tiring. I`m more interested in world building and character development, as far as their serialization goes. 

 

I also wish they showed more variety among Wesen races. Like, have them run into some nice cat Wesen, or an Ogre who just wants to be a dentist or something. I just always find it lazy when the writers describe whole species in really broad strokes. It seems lazy, and kind of awkward and uncomfortable. They aren't animals, they're people, maybe they have certain natural traits due to Wesen stuff, but I cant believe there are any all asshole races. They're not Orcs!  

[Fable]

I don't mind small side arcs, but I do resent when they start to take over the show.  If they must give us side arcs, and then let's address the ones that they already had going, like the coins, the keys, etcetera.  I do not want to see another pregnancy with Adalind or any more relationship trouble between Nick and Juliette with Renard somehow in the middle.  Been there, done that with both of them, and didn't particularly enjoy them the first time!  I don't know if I can sit through these retreads if they are going to be a large focus of the show. 

[OtterMommy]

I was going to post this in the Mishupishu thread, but this seemed like a better place.

 

I think I know what the writers are trying to do.  J.K. Rowling did a very good job of dropping details in the Harry Potter books that would come into play in later books.  When reading them, the reader might notice the detail and might even take note for a moment about how interesting it was and then move on.  Later--maybe several books down the road, that detail would come up a part of a major plot point--allowing people to geek out to their hearts' content.

 

I think that is what the Grimm writers are trying to do.They are trying to drop hints in such a way that we notice them, but accept them as just part of the fabric of the story so that, when it becomes part of the plot later on, the viewers can all squeel, "Oh yeah!  I remember that!"

 

There are, unfortunately, 2 big problems with this:

1 - The writers suck at it.  I mean, their attempts at subtlety (which is a necessary skill if they are going to do this sort of thing) are horrendous.  And these "details" are not at all woven into the greater narrative.  They make a big deal of things, like the keys, and then just drop them without any explanation.

2 - For this to work, the writers need to have an end game (for example, the finale of this show will involve Wesen killing off all the Royals and taking over the world) and a guarantee of longevity.  The writers have neither.  It is painfully obvious that they are just making this up as the go.  If you need proof of that, just take Adalind's most recent pregnancy.  This wasn't even a consideration when the writers were pitching for Season 4. It wasn't until the fall, when Claire Coffee announced she was pregnant, that the idea even came to them.  At that point, half of season 4 had already been written.  And, as for longevity, TV shows just don't have that luxury.  For the most part, they live season to season (there are a few exception, mostly recently The Big Bang Theory was renewed for multiple seasons and Jim Parsons, at least, has said that the show will be done at that point) and they usually don't know until the middle of the current season if there will be a next season.  Sure, there are shows that have a level of success that guarantees additional seasons, but--let's be honest--Grimm isn't one of them.

 

I really, really feel there needs to be a shake up in the writer's room.  Not only do they need some better writers, they need writers who know their own limitations.

Edited April 19, 2015 by OtterMommy

[Actionmage]

I really, really feel there needs to be a shake up in the writer's room.  Not only do they need some better writers, they need writers who know their own limitations.

 

I've been curious about the writers of various shows this season, so I've been looking at IMDb and Wikipedia for credits.

 

This is how it stands to "Mishipeshu" and just Season 4:

* Female writers: 1, Brenna Kouf- Episode 8 "Chupacabra" & Episode 15 "Double Date"

*Female Directors: 3; Tawnia McKiernan, Hanelle M. Culpepper, & Karen Gaviola

*Male writers: 8; Jim Kouf, David Greenwalt, Thomas Ian Griffith ( also Story Editor this season), Sean Calder ( Executive Story Editor for the season), Michael Golamco ( the other Story Editor for the season), Alan DiFiore, Dan E. Fesman, & Jeff Miller.

*Male Directors: 11; Norberto Barba, Terrence O'Hara, Paul A. Kaufman, Eric Laneuville, John Behring, John Gray, Aaron Lipstadt, Peter Werner, Constantine Makris, Rob Bailey, & Omar Madha.

*# of Female writers who were Producers: 0

*# of Male Writers who were Producers: 4 ( through Episode 18)

 

This isn't to hate on the men; I started curious about gender break down in writers rooms of shows I watch. About four of the male directors had two episodes for the show to date this season. Some I've been fans of for years (Eric Laneuville and Norberto Barba).

 

As far as the writing, there is something to be said about having a consistent core to your writing staff.  Greenwalt, Kouf, DiFiore, and Fesman have been around since season 1 and are Executive Producers ( Greenwalt and Kouf) or Co-Executive Producers ( DiFiore and Fesman) as well. Calder and Griffith have been around since S2.

 

I haven't checked my S1 dvds  for  a story editor yet, but for Season 2 the post was shared by Akela Cooper and Spiro Skentzos. For Season 3 it was Sean Calder. This season, it was shared by Thomas Ian  Griffith and Michael Golamco.

 

This is just who's written and their sometimes various job titles. I haven't  done much because the season is currently on-going and I'm looking at staff of series that I watch.  As I sort of noted, there are instances of Grimm using BTS creatives more than once in a season, so that can be a good thing.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Actionmage

[kathyk24]

Can we discuss the gender issues in Grimm? The writers seem to have difficulty creating likable female characters. The main three male characters Nick, Hank and Monroe are all mostly heroes. Of the three main female characters the only one I would describe as a hero is Rosalie. Adalind has no problem hurting people in order to get what she wants. Juliette has changed from a compassionate adult into a selfish brat. I loved Trubel but the writers wrote her off. I'm hoping she stays around this time

[Actionmage]

kathyk24, in other show forums, there are threads specifically for gender, sexuality and other sensitive subjects. As long as the mods are cool, I'd be happy to discuss gender with you there, if you start one.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Actionmage

[OtterMommy]

Can we discuss the gender issues in Grimm? The writers seem to have difficulty creating likable female characters. The main three male characters Nick, Hank and Monroe are all mostly heroes. Of the three main female characters the only one I would describe as a hero is Rosalie. Adalind has no problem hurting people in order to get what she wants. Juliette has changed from a compassionate adult into a selfish brat. I loved Trubel but the writers wrote her off. I'm hoping she stays around this time

 

 

kathyk24, in other show forums, there are threads specifically for gender, sexuality and other sensitive subjects. As long as the mods are cool, I'd be happy to discuss gender with you there, if you start one.

 

Personally, I think this is a perfect place to discuss the gender issues.  After all, they start with the writers.  Previously, I bemoaned the very small presence of female writers.  This isn't that I think female writers are better than men, or even better at writing female characters than men. However, the men who happen to be writing for this show have a very clear difficulty in writing female characters.  Yes, Rosalie is really our only female protagonist at this point, but honestly she's been relegated to providing information and making spells.  The scene in Mishupishu where Nick and Hank come to Monroe and Rosalie's for dinner is a clear example that once they get Rosalie out of the Spice Shop (literally and figuratively), they don't know what to do with her.  I think they did a pretty good job with Monroe trying to steer the conversation--what little there was of it--off of Juliette, but Rosalie really just sat there hemmed and hawed.  Then, once Nick left, we could get back to Spice Shop Rosalie and her character came back.  The thing about Spice Shop Rosalie is that she isn't "female."  I mean, yes, Rosalie is female, but when she's operating in that role, it doesn't matter that she's female.

 

In Seasons 1 and 2, they did have a pretty good grasp on Adalind as sort of the classic villain and I was okay with that.  Then they started to try and make her more complex, when in reality they just made her more of a mess (hee hee, I'm a poet and didn't know it!).  I'm not normally a fan of stereotypical characters, but for this show,it isn't necessarily a bad thing as long as not all characters are stereotypical.  I figure if we have a complex hero (which we currently don't--Nick is pretty one-dimensional at this point.  However, at least that problem could be remedied), one or two complex secondary characters (I'll go with Monroe and Renard) I'm okay with the rest of the cast being a little one-dimensional.

 

I think they are too far gone with Adalind at this point to salvage her character in any meaningful way, but they could redeem themselves with Juliette.  Quit having her whine and cry and throw temper tantrums and just let her be bad.  And, for goodness sake, don't make her pregnant!

[FormerMod-a1]

I think they have written several well written women characters, hero, villain, grey and otherwise - Truble, Kelly, Aunt Marie, the daughter Dämonfeuer, the medical examiner, the Spinnatod, etc.  I think the problem is with two specific characters - Juliette and Adalind.   It's like once they decided Juliette should be in the forefront more, they tanked the writing somehow.  I have always liked Juliette the character, even when I didn't like the execution (via acting or directing) of said character, but now she just baffles me.   The decline for writing for her started with that blasted coma in season 2 and has mostly been downhill ever since, with some better eps here and there and some plateaus.   Somehow they managed Wu's transition into being the know much better - his character didn't change, his screen presence didn't change, his role didn't change.  Wu basically still stayed Wu.  Why they couldn't do that for Juliette, I don't know.  As for Adanlind, yeah, they've tanked her character since the first season too.  I hate that she's basically become a pouting baby machine that keeps seeking out men to help her.  That to me is much more problematic than anything else.

[OtterMommy]

I think they have written several well written women characters, hero, villain, grey and otherwise - Truble, Kelly, Aunt Marie, the daughter Dämonfeuer, the medical examiner, the Spinnatod, etc.  

 

The difference is that the characters you mentioned--even Kelly and Trubel--are short-terms or one-offs.  It's one thing to write one or two episodes of an interesting character, another to write 88+ episodes.  To be fair, there have been episodes where Juliette and Adalind have been well-written. 

 

I haven't heard what their plans for Toboni are--if they are going to make Trubel a regular, have her pop in and guest star from time to time, or spin her off (I vote for one of the last 2), but it will be interesting--and telling--to see if they can sustain her character over several episodes.

[merylinkid]

I don't think the writers know how to handle character PERIOD.   Regardless of gender.   Renard anyone?    He started off as a villain, now he spends his time on the phone except when having Zauerbeist/Hexenbeist sex.     Nick has gone from a basically good guy who happens to be a Grimm and a copy to some wangsty emo thing.   Hank always was a cipher and never well developed.   And all the Royals we have met have been men.   Who they are, what motivates them and anything other than "WE MUST GET THE BABY" is never developed.

 

We need writers who can develop a character with a consistentcy and some measure of growth that then drives the plot.   Not the other way around.   Then we can worry about the gender of the writers.

[OakGoblinFly]

Personally, I think this is a perfect place to discuss the gender issues.  After all, they start with the writers.  Previously, I bemoaned the very small presence of female writers.  This isn't that I think female writers are better than men, or even better at writing female characters than men. However, the men who happen to be writing for this show have a very clear difficulty in writing female characters.  Yes, Rosalie is really our only female protagonist at this point, but honestly she's been relegated to providing information and making spells.  The scene in Mishupishu where Nick and Hank come to Monroe and Rosalie's for dinner is a clear example that once they get Rosalie out of the Spice Shop (literally and figuratively), they don't know what to do with her.  I think they did a pretty good job with Monroe trying to steer the conversation--what little there was of it--off of Juliette, but Rosalie really just sat there hemmed and hawed.  Then, once Nick left, we could get back to Spice Shop Rosalie and her character came back.  The thing about Spice Shop Rosalie is that she isn't "female."  I mean, yes, Rosalie is female, but when she's operating in that role, it doesn't matter that she's female.

 

In Seasons 1 and 2, they did have a pretty good grasp on Adalind as sort of the classic villain and I was okay with that.  Then they started to try and make her more complex, when in reality they just made her more of a mess (hee hee, I'm a poet and didn't know it!).  I'm not normally a fan of stereotypical characters, but for this show,it isn't necessarily a bad thing as long as not all characters are stereotypical.  I figure if we have a complex hero (which we currently don't--Nick is pretty one-dimensional at this point.  However, at least that problem could be remedied), one or two complex secondary characters (I'll go with Monroe and Renard) I'm okay with the rest of the cast being a little one-dimensional.

 

I think they are too far gone with Adalind at this point to salvage her character in any meaningful way, but they could redeem themselves with Juliette.  Quit having her whine and cry and throw temper tantrums and just let her be bad.  And, for goodness sake, don't make her pregnant!

 

 

Personally I think that both Adalind and Juliette are beyond saving at this point - too much character assassination for the writers to reset.  And if they do reset, we'll have a season of Juliette crying and begging forgiveness for all the "mean" things she did when she was under the hexenbiest curse - and Adalind dealing with the out-of-character side effects of her spell to de-Grimm Nick .

 

And please, please, please - can Nick be a character all on his own?  I feel that he is there to support "development" of Juliette.  I liked Juliette fine when she was a fringe character, now that she's being shoved down our throats I can't stand it.

 

I have no idea what the writers did with Renard - I liked when we didn't know what side he was on, I liked that he supported Nick yet had no problem ordering a hit on his aunt.

Edited April 20, 2015 by OakGoblinFly

[Syme]

I wish they no, WE had the writing team that Rob Thomas lined up for Veronica Mars. 

They, and Ms. Bell, made an ordinary premise into something Kick Butt extraordinary.

 

[Actionmage]

We need writers who can develop a character with a consistentcy and some measure of growth that then drives the plot.   Not the other way around.   Then we can worry about the gender of the writers.

 

I agree that gender shouldn't be in play when it comes to the writing, but the numbers show that the majority of the writing of this show is from men. Men in producer positions and men that often are writing the bulk of the season. Yet, we're wondering how the thread got so thoroughly lost this season. Many of the writers are the long-term, men that have been around for from Season 1 or 2 until currently. Those same writers are in charge of the story editing, which has been given to at least five different people over four seasons.  Two of those story editors weren't employed by the show for either season 3 or 4 in any writing capacity.

 

For writers who have been with the show for a relatively long period, an average person would think it's a good thing and believe that there would be more consistency in-show, but there is very little. Other than the hammered into everyone's frontal lobe items (Aunt Marie's warnings), there is mostly no real follow-through on  ideas/story hooks/ organically occurring side stories that come up.

 

As to imbalance of character, gender-wise, I think it shows a lack of imagination on the part of the writers. They want to have Ye Olde Worlde as a basis for the Royals, but there were women in places of power in the timeframe I am guessing the show's past grew from. Barely integrating speaking roles of no huge signifigance implies that women aren't in the workplace currently or are capable of being leaders with  power. Looking at the women of the cast, here is how some of the bigger leads and recurring characters episode frequency breaks down ( re: IMDb):

 

*Juliette -- 88 episodes                              *Stefania  Popescu -- 7 episodes

*Rosalee-- 64 episodes                             * Frau Pech-- 6 episodes

*Adalind-- 52 episodes                              *Elizabeth (Renard's mom)-- 6 episodes

* Dr. Harper ( the M.E.)--11 episodes       *Kelly Burkhardt--6 episodes

*Teresa--11 epsiodes                                *Pilar (Juliette's Spanish-speaking lady friend)-- 4 episodes

 

  While Nick, Juliette,Hank, Monroe, and  Renard have been in 88 episodes- and Wu in 85, the episode "gap" goes  to Rosalee and Adalind. Then to Sgt. Franco and Bud, with 21 and 18 episodes, respectively.

 

Looking at the writing in the same light:

*Stephen Carpenter, David Greenwalt and Jim Kouf  get creator credit and 88 episodes. Mr. Greenwalt has 24 and 2  unaired episodes by my count. Mr. Kouf has the same count.

*Akela Cooper and Spiro Skentzos, story editors of S2, are credited with 20 episodes, but Ms. Cooper only wrote 3 episodes and Mr. Skentzos wrote 3 scripts.

* Sean Calder, story editor of S3, is credited with 16 stories, when by my count he's written 5 and an upcoming script.

*Alan DiFiore and Dan E. Fesman are credited with 11 episodes apiece as well as by my count.

*Thomas Ian Griffith and Michael Golamco are credited with 9 and 7 episodes, respectively. Mr. Griffith has 6 and one unaired, by my count. Mr. Golamco has 4 and one unaired.

 

The writers are fumbling with the characters they've written the most about, but mainly just this season. The first season was greatly enjoyed and folks looked forward to S2. Season 2 came along, complete with the over-long amnesia/revenge tale, but there was enough good storytelling, that we mostly go through okay. Season 3 started off interestingly and generally got back into the groove. We even got a new Grimm who injected a bit of life into things. The Season 3 finale cliffhanger was appropriately bonkers and there seemed to be hope for this season. Yet? It has generally seemed to let down a great number of us here, so I can't imagine the average/casual person tuning in.

 

So, back to consistency. I believe that the show has had it for a good chunk of the run. That is why we are griping now; we know what the characters should be reacting based on how they have reacted in the past three seasons. That is where the confusion over Juliette, Renard and Adalind come into play. People who have been good at this stuff ( and probably still are) are writing erratically. The flaws we handwaved before are getting harder to ignore and it doesn't seem that they are clarifying anything.  I would agree with overhauling the writing room, but since many are in producer positions, I don't think that is likely.

[OtterMommy]

I agree that gender shouldn't be in play when it comes to the writing, but the numbers show that the majority of the writing of this show is from men. Men in producer positions and men that often are writing the bulk of the season. Yet, we're wondering how the thread got so thoroughly lost this season. Many of the writers are the long-term, men that have been around for from Season 1 or 2 until currently. Those same writers are in charge of the story editing, which has been given to at least five different people over four seasons.  Two of those story editors weren't employed by the show for either season 3 or 4 in any writing capacity.

 

For writers who have been with the show for a relatively long period, an average person would think it's a good thing and believe that there would be more consistency in-show, but there is very little. Other than the hammered into everyone's frontal lobe items (Aunt Marie's warnings), there is mostly no real follow-through on  ideas/story hooks/ organically occurring side stories that come up.

 

As to imbalance of character, gender-wise, I think it shows a lack of imagination on the part of the writers. They want to have Ye Olde Worlde as a basis for the Royals, but there were women in places of power in the timeframe I am guessing the show's past grew from. Barely integrating speaking roles of no huge signifigance implies that women aren't in the workplace currently or are capable of being leaders with  power. Looking at the women of the cast, here is how some of the bigger leads and recurring characters episode frequency breaks down ( re: IMDb):

 

*Juliette -- 88 episodes                              *Stefania  Popescu -- 7 episodes

*Rosalee-- 64 episodes                             * Frau Pech-- 6 episodes

*Adalind-- 52 episodes                              *Elizabeth (Renard's mom)-- 6 episodes

* Dr. Harper ( the M.E.)--11 episodes       *Kelly Burkhardt--6 episodes

*Teresa--11 epsiodes                                *Pilar (Juliette's Spanish-speaking lady friend)-- 4 episodes

 

  While Nick, Juliette,Hank, Monroe, and  Renard have been in 88 episodes- and Wu in 85, the episode "gap" goes  to Rosalee and Adalind. Then to Sgt. Franco and Bud, with 21 and 18 episodes, respectively.

 

Looking at the writing in the same light:

*Stephen Carpenter, David Greenwalt and Jim Kouf  get creator credit and 88 episodes. Mr. Greenwalt has 24 and 2  unaired episodes by my count. Mr. Kouf has the same count.

*Akela Cooper and Spiro Skentzos, story editors of S2, are credited with 20 episodes, but Ms. Cooper only wrote 3 episodes and Mr. Skentzos wrote 3 scripts.

* Sean Calder, story editor of S3, is credited with 16 stories, when by my count he's written 5 and an upcoming script.

*Alan DiFiore and Dan E. Fesman are credited with 11 episodes apiece as well as by my count.

*Thomas Ian Griffith and Michael Golamco are credited with 9 and 7 episodes, respectively. Mr. Griffith has 6 and one unaired, by my count. Mr. Golamco has 4 and one unaired.

 

The writers are fumbling with the characters they've written the most about, but mainly just this season. The first season was greatly enjoyed and folks looked forward to S2. Season 2 came along, complete with the over-long amnesia/revenge tale, but there was enough good storytelling, that we mostly go through okay. Season 3 started off interestingly and generally got back into the groove. We even got a new Grimm who injected a bit of life into things. The Season 3 finale cliffhanger was appropriately bonkers and there seemed to be hope for this season. Yet? It has generally seemed to let down a great number of us here, so I can't imagine the average/casual person tuning in.

 

So, back to consistency. I believe that the show has had it for a good chunk of the run. That is why we are griping now; we know what the characters should be reacting based on how they have reacted in the past three seasons. That is where the confusion over Juliette, Renard and Adalind come into play. People who have been good at this stuff ( and probably still are) are writing erratically. The flaws we handwaved before are getting harder to ignore and it doesn't seem that they are clarifying anything.  I would agree with overhauling the writing room, but since many are in producer positions, I don't think that is likely.

 

Great post...I can't figure out how to insert text between the quoted sections so bear with me:

• I'm just curious...what does a story editor do?  Do they just edit the scripts once the writers are done?
• I just want to point out that a woman (Akela Cooper) wrote my favorite episode of the series so far (Nameless in S2)
• I think we need to "weight" the number of episodes that Rosalee has been in.  Yes, it is significantly less than the other regulars (except Adalind), but she joined the cast 2/3 of the way through the first season and had maternity leave.  Outside of her maternity leave in S2, she has appeared in every episode since she joined the cast.
• You are right...the problem is that these writing problems seemed to have come just this season from writers who have been on the staff for most or all of the run.  You mention S2 and I think that's an important example.  There was a lot of crap going on then--Juliette's amnesia, her obsession with Renard, her recovery from her amnesia, Adalind running and sleeping around Europe.  Yet, with all that, most of the episodes were still very good.  They had strong WotW plots and the characters were still true to their "original" selves--by that, I mean Monroe was still quirky, Nick was still a cop trying to be a cop AND be a Grimm, etc.  This season, however, they still (STILL) have some of the S2 arcs going, and then they start repeating things that no one liked the first time around.  They really haven't been able to consistently put together strong WotW plots and they keep introducing new characters, many of whom are just reboots of other characters - Kenneth is a reboot of Viktor (who was a reboot of Eric), Henrietta is a reboot of Elizabeth, etc.

 

Now, speaking of "reboots," I've seen it mentioned in interviews with members of the cast and the show runners, that S5 is supposed to be a reboot of the entire series.  What exactly does that mean?  From what I've been seeing with the show, I can only think that the writers have realized that they have lost control of the plots or believe that they have written themselves into corners (I don't believe that, at least not yet.  I do think that the show can be salvaged from where it is now) and they have to start all over.

[ShadowFacts]

 

So, back to consistency. I believe that the show has had it for a good chunk of the run. That is why we are griping now; we know what the characters should be reacting based on how they have reacted in the past three seasons. That is where the confusion over Juliette, Renard and Adalind come into play. People who have been good at this stuff ( and probably still are) are writing erratically. The flaws we handwaved before are getting harder to ignore and it doesn't seem that they are clarifying anything.  I would agree with overhauling the writing room, but since many are in producer positions, I don't think that is likely.

For me, the first part of the season was pretty good, it was after the resumption in January that I started getting more critical.  That pretty much coincides with Juliette's first hiding, then revealing her biestitude.   That needs to go away asap but I don't know how they can do it in a way that would satisfy me, short of her leaving the show altogether.

 

 

Now, speaking of "reboots," I've seen it mentioned in interviews with members of the cast and the show runners, that S5 is supposed to be a reboot of the entire series.  What exactly does that mean?  From what I've been seeing with the show, I can only think that the writers have realized that they have lost control of the plots or believe that they have written themselves into corners (I don't believe that, at least not yet.  I do think that the show can be salvaged from where it is now) and they have to start all over.

It would be hard to start all over, fans would really squawk and ratings might tank.  When I think reboot I think of something along the lines of Nick no longer being a cop, just a full-out Grimm.  That would be hard to do, but Wu and Hank could still consult Nick and Monroe and Rosalee, I suppose. 

[Actionmage]

•I'm just curious...what does a story editor do?  Do they just edit the scripts once the writers are done?

 

Here is a link to a site I found when I Googled "story editor", Crafty TV  Writing: http://www.craftyscreenwriting.com/excerpts/TV11.html

 

There is also a drier job description here: http://getinmedia.com/careers/story-editor

[OtterMommy]

 

It would be hard to start all over, fans would really squawk and ratings might tank.  When I think reboot I think of something along the lines of Nick no longer being a cop, just a full-out Grimm.  That would be hard to do, but Wu and Hank could still consult Nick and Monroe and Rosalee, I suppose. 

 

It would actually surprise me if Nick left the force.  This show has always been about a cop who was a Grimm.  I think taking the "cop" part out of it, you lose the essence.  Plus, as Renard said, pretty much all crime is Wesen related in some way....

 

Personally, I think if they want to effectively reboot, they need to tie up some of their long arcs so that they can shut the book on them and then start some different ones.  Sadly, I don't think that will happen.  

[merylinkid]

Reboot would be to kick out all the stuff that is NOT working:  the Royals, Juliette as  hexenbeist, Monroe as a neutered Blutbad and go back to what worked.   Nick as the center of the show, not Juliette and her pain and agony.   No Adalind.   No Royals.   Just our INtrepid Heroes trying to balance the safety of folks in Portland with the needs of the Wesen community.   

[OakGoblinFly]

Personally, I think if they want to effectively reboot, they need to tie up some of their long arcs so that they can shut the book on them and then start some different ones.  Sadly, I don't think that will happen.  

 

 

I know, we haven't heard about the keys since last season and the show hasn't even acknowledge that Nick "dies" as a side effect of being zombified.  Also, other than a mere mention, what ever happened to Grimm super hearing?

[OtterMommy]

I know, we haven't heard about the keys since last season and the show hasn't even acknowledge that Nick "dies" as a side effect of being zombified.  Also, other than a mere mention, what ever happened to Grimm super hearing?

 

The zombie thing and the keys have come missing, but the super hearing get pulled out of the bag whenever it is convenient (which is almost as annoying as it being dropped altogether).

[Actionmage]

Reboot would be to kick out all the stuff that is NOT working:

 

It could kick everything out, for simplification.

 

The Wikipedia definition and overview (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reboot_(fiction) ): "In serial fiction, to reboot means to discard all continuity in an established series in order to recreate its characters, timeline and backstory from the beginning  ... Reboots remove any non-essential elements associated with a franchise by starting the franchise's continuity over and distilling it down to the core elements and concepts."

 

TV Tropes' definition of a Continuity Reboot:  (time sink ahoy!--http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ContinuityReboot) "A Continuity Reboot is the partial or complete elimination of continuity from any and all previous works in a series. You could say it's the creation of an Alternate Universe that shares virtually no canon with the preceding works in a franchise. It's not a Reset Button or Snap Back: while those revert the continuity to a previous state, a Continuity Reboot starts over, providing the authors with a new clean slate to work on. In one form, as far as later works are concerned everything before it is in Canon Discontinuity (to which it sometimes overlaps).

Frequently, a Continuity Reboot will include one (or more) Tone Shifts, usually to whatever is considered the best money-maker for the target demographic, Darker and Edgier or Lighter and Softer."  (italics mine)

 

Yes, they'd be able to keep Our Heroes an Teresa & Josh, Renard and Adalind, but how do we feel the writing would be, starting at Square 2, if not 1?  I'm uncertain if a reboot is the answer.     

 

 

Personally, I think this is a perfect place to discuss the gender issues.  After all, they start with the writers.

 

Everything starts with the writers, but that doesn't mean that gender and the various -isms shouldn't have their own thread for deeper discussion. This is a space for discussing the writing and writers specifically. Will there be overlap? Quite possibly, but discussion of those other subjects would be better served in a space where it is the point of the discussion.

 

And as we have seen, discussion of gender in the writers' room is kind of relevant to the writing discussion. When the discussion is about characters, like Linus/Stacy from "Double Date",   or another topic, the talk should be moved, is all I was meaning. 

[blueray]

It would be hard to start all over, fans would really squawk and ratings might tank.  When I think reboot I think of something along the lines of Nick no longer being a cop, just a full-out Grimm.  That would be hard to do, but Wu and Hank could still consult Nick and Monroe and Rosalee, I suppose. 

I think they could pull this off for a story arc next season. They have Nick quit the force after Juliette dies (in my dreams that would happen). And instead of going around depressed, Nick decides to go full Grimm. That doesn't mean kill random wesen, but he no longer places by the "rules". He could still remain friends with Hank and Wu but this would reduce their roles for a bit. And make Monroe and Rosalee front and center again. And of course he would end up back as a cop at some point.

 

I'm not sure how the writers could get rite of the royal/ resistance storyline as it really has just dragged on and on, besides just stop mentioning them at altogether. Which at this point I would be quite okay with. I'm not sure if that would piss off other fans though.

[OakGoblinFly]

I'm not sure how the writers could get rite of the royal/ resistance storyline as it really has just dragged on and on, besides just stop mentioning them at altogether. Which at this point I would be quite okay with. I'm not sure if that would piss off other fans though.

 

 

I liked the Royal story line when it was Sean Renard being all kinds of shady and having brief conversations with "the family" - I haven't been a fan since they expanded the storyline. 

 

Honestly, I think enough fans are pissed off that it might be better to shave the extraneous crap from the show and stick to what works and chuck everything else.

 

They need to pick up the dropped story lines (coins, keys, Nicks zombie powers, Renard's past) and ditch the soap opera elements.  What I liked about this show is the lack of soapy drama ...... that's been gone since season two.

[shapeshifter]

I haven't been posting to this thread, so this might be an irrelevant suggestion.

After the torching of the Grimmebago last episode, I thought the title of this thread should be changed from:

"Well, It Says Right Here...: The Writing of GRIMM"

to:

"Well, It Said Right There...: The Writing of GRIMM"

using the past tense in reference to the journals of Nick's ancestors.

*Sad sigh*

[OtterMommy]

I haven't been posting to this thread, so this might be an irrelevant suggestion.

After the torching of the Grimmebago last episode, I thought the title of this thread should be changed from:

"Well, It Says Right Here...: The Writing of GRIMM"

to:

"Well, It Said Right There...: The Writing of GRIMM"

using the past tense in reference to the journals of Nick's ancestors.

*Sad sigh*

 

Sigh...I so agree!

 

I'm a book person--I review books and I have a book blog.  I spend at least a couple of hours each day reading.  I think that was what drew me to this show--it is (was) a very bookish show.  They used literary source material and they were ALWAYS GOING BACK TO THE BOOKS!  Both Rosalee and Monroe seems to have extensive libraries of their own (Rosalee's at the Spice Shop and Monroe's at their house), but there was something just organic about going to books that were hand written and handed down through the years, even if I cried foul at how pages that were purported to be about 2000 years old were in mint condition. 

 

Then, there was the burning.  There is NOTHING so counter the sanctity of books as burning them...I find it rather irresponsible of the writers to not take this into consideration.  True, the trailer itself wasn't as "useful" as it once was, but it was the heart of the show...and they burned it up.

[Free]

Then, there was the burning.  There is NOTHING so counter the sanctity of books as burning them...I find it rather irresponsible of the writers to not take this into consideration.  True, the trailer itself wasn't as "useful" as it once was, but it was the heart of the show...and they burned it up.

 

It's a shame really, the trailer should've been more useful, especially since it's full of untapped mythology and answers, as well as Grimm related material this show should be focusing on instead of destroying it to facilitate the same melodrama with Juliette and Adalind at this point.

[Actionmage]

You'd think that Nick would have moved the Grimmebago shortly after Juliette refused to come home. Simply to CYA; if Juliette became more of her pre-hexenig self, she'd be the first to understand. Instead, we have gum-drawer Nick. More interested in being mopey and fibbing to Teresa than making sure his family legacy sources are safe and where an unpredictable Juliette could not do damage. Not unlike in Season 2, when Adalind got the location of the Grimmebago from Juliette.

 

So they are writing their lead/hero as a dumbass. That is an unusual direction to take, for sure.  Especially as many of us like Nick because he's smart.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Actionmage

[ShadowFacts]

Nick should have been moving it periodically and been surveilling it regularly.  Portland is crawling with bad-news Wesen who know who he is.  In fact he should have at least split some of it up so it wasn't all in one place, if not get it digitized.  It leads me to think the writers really want to have Nick and Juliette be irretrievably at odds, so that much more angst and melodrama can ensue when the baby arrives.  I have resisted the idea that the baby is genetically Juliette's because we saw her come back from getting her hair done while Adalind was doing the deed, but it looks like they are going there. 

[Actionmage]

Maybe the writers are thinking that after four seasons of having all the answers in front of him, that he needs to see what the deep end of the pool is like?   Juliette was the convenient can of jet fuel, but Nick has been able to run to the books and has found most of the answers he has needed. He also has Monroe and Rosalee as help. He even has Bud as another bit of help.

 

I get why the Grimmebago was needed for baby Grimm Nick, but maybe this is where Nick finds out how he reacts when he can't get a complete or mostly complete picture.  I'm not liking the path to get there, but maybe this is where Nick leaves the "school books" behind.  Traditional Grimms will find him a hippie still, wesen are still going to fear/hate him if they don't know him. Reapers will still try to kill him. (Okay, they're paid to kill him, but still.) Unless Nick gives up his badge, Hank, Wu and Renard are going to be working with him.   So it's a big step for Nick, but not a retooling or other kind of overhaul.

 

As for what the folks in charge are saying about reboots? They also told us that the Keys would be explained this season.  Yes, we still have three episodes until the summer break. I was hoping for more than an infodump in the homestretch of this season. Especially since I saw it promised in the SDCC14 panel video.  Not sure what to trust from these folks, is what I 'm saying.

[Free]

As for what the folks in charge are saying about reboots? They also told us that the Keys would be explained this season.  Yes, we still have three episodes until the summer break. I was hoping for more than an infodump in the homestretch of this season. Especially since I saw it promised in the SDCC14 panel video.  Not sure what to trust from these folks, is what I 'm saying.

 

If it is a reboot, they should dump the Royals/Juliette/Adalind's melodrama, etc.  Honestly the keys shouldn't have taken at least 4 seasons to get to.

 

[OakGoblinFly]

Maybe the writers are thinking that after four seasons of having all the answers in front of him, that he needs to see what the deep end of the pool is like?   Juliette was the convenient can of jet fuel, but Nick has been able to run to the books and has found most of the answers he has needed. He also has Monroe and Rosalee as help. He even has Bud as another bit of help.

 

I think the powers-that-be missed an opportunity with the trailer; yes it has answers (as do Monroe, Rosalee, and Bud - heck even Renard provides some answers) ... but I think the writers missed using the trailer as a way for Nick to connect with his Grimm-ness both in terms of history and family.

[merylinkid]

 

but I think the writers missed using the trailer as a way for Nick to connect with his Grimm-ness both in terms of history and family.

Exactly.   Aunt Marie had all those books for a reason.   All those Grimms WROTE the books for a reason.   So future generations would have the answers instead of bumbling along and hoping they could figure out how to kill the bad Wesen.   The Grimmebago wasn't a crutch, it was a vital tool in being a Grimm.  

 

Heck the Brothers Grimm recorded the stories for future generations to use.   It's meant to be used and passed on to the next generation.   Remember, Nick's Mom saying she remembered falling asleep in the trailer while researching?   And no one would claim SHE used it as a crutch.

 

Nope they burned the Grimmebago (if they really did, hoping it was just a fantasy of Juliette's) because they had to come up with some way to make Juliette extra bad.   No other reason.   Plot device, and history be damned.

[Prevailing Wind]

I have the sinking feeling that burning the Grimmebago was supposed to re-engage the fans who've been dropping Grimm from their viewing habits.  Guess what, guys?  It's not working and it's pissing off the folks who hang around, still having some hope you can pull a rabbit out a hat.  Let's see that rabbit, now, writers.

[Free]

I have the sinking feeling that burning the Grimmebago was supposed to re-engage the fans who've been dropping Grimm from their viewing habits.  Guess what, guys?  It's not working and it's pissing off the folks who hang around, still having some hope you can pull a rabbit out a hat.  Let's see that rabbit, now, writers.

 

If anything it makes it worse, they just sacrificed an important plot point filled with potential myth/story arcs all to facilitate more of the same Juliette drama, which is what many people already have a problem with.

[Lii]

But didn't you know guys, they listen to what the audience wants and the audience wants more Juliette and Adalind!

[Actionmage]

... but I think the writers missed using the trailer as a way for Nick to connect with his Grimm-ness both in terms of history and family.

 

ITA with this. But, if this is not a drill and the trailer is burned for real, we'll have to see how Nick digs down and into his heritage. Maybe he restarts the books from his own recollections/cases. If he can contact Kelly ( or if she shows this season), then he might get some of the tinctures and potions and poisons and what-have-you recipes so he can rebuild some stuff. Again, not saying I like this path or think it's where the show should be heading. Just spit-balling what the EPs and writers may be thinking.

 

Sadly, this season has had a strong whiff of  story railroading, where most reasons for characters doing something was due to "plot needs me to do it." Then, because natural character reactions would be either too violent/ final (Juliette killing Adalind during Adalind's surprise visit, say) or  not outsized ( Nick not being super mopey and letting Juliette try to find peace of mind/ only being visibly concerned at home, not on the job during work time), the writing amped them up, no matter the situation and for the drama.

 

I really hope that Kelly doesn't come to town, even with Nick in danger. We're talking the woman that let her son believe she was dead for twenty-some years. This is the woman who looked Adalind straight in the face, essentially told Adalind that Diana was going to be taken, and then took off with Diana. Kenneth's smug "what if her son is in danger" line made me chuckle. Kelly would see through that and never answer the call-for-help e-mail, start a new e-mail account, and never step out of wherever the hell she is. (Though, I would sort of love it if she was squatting in Katherine's  house. 'This was your grandmother. She was a decent fighter. I was better.')

 

I have the sinking feeling that burning the Grimmebago was supposed to re-engage the fans who've been dropping Grimm from their viewing habits.

 

If that is even a slight possibility, then that shows that the folks who write this have lost touch with anything that would pull leaving fans back and  keep diehards. If that is the case, I'd rather the show not come back. Another season to try and repair what they did wrong when they haven't shown that they understand what's driving folks away or why fans are angry?     In-the-loop Wu and Bud webisodes and  Monrosalee moments and Hank being awesome aren't enough.  They are nice, but the center hasn't held. 

 

They seem hell-bent on making Marie correct. Why not show her as incorrect? It wouldn't make me hate the character of Aunt Marie. Kelly was married and had a child. Yes, she eventually faked her death, but I bet there were days that weren't plagued by wesen death threats. Nick seemed to miss his mom, even though he deeply loved Marie.  There had to be some good days.  There have to be male and female Grimms with decent family lives,like Josh's dad, Rolek (?, per IMDb).

[OakGoblinFly]

I really hope that Kelly doesn't come to town, even with Nick in danger. We're talking the woman that let her son believe she was dead for twenty-some years. This is the woman who looked Adalind straight in the face, essentially told Adalind that Diana was going to be taken, and then took off with Diana. Kenneth's smug "what if her son is in danger" line made me chuckle. Kelly would see through that and never answer the call-for-help e-mail, start a new e-mail account, and never step out of wherever the hell she is. (Though, I would sort of love it if she was squatting in Katherine's  house. 'This was your grandmother. She was a decent fighter. I was better.'

 

 

Except that these are the writers/show-runners that turned Nick from a capable police office in an angst-free, long term relationship with a perfectly nice (if some what bland) supportive girlfriend into an emotional, mopey, "it's all my fault" drip of a man who is chasing after a whiny, petulant, Queen Bitch.

Edited April 30, 2015 by OakGoblinFly

[merylinkid]

That will get Kelly back.   So she can smack some sense into her stupid, wangsty son's head.   "Snap out of it."

[OtterMommy]

(Moving a convo to this thread from the spoilers thread....)

 

Just because Adalind could fight back doesn't make it any less rapey. The least of what Nick did would legally be termed assault. If a man held you down and stuck his tongue in your mouth against your will, no matter if you were fighting or not, I doubt any woman would say, "Well, we were fighting at the time, so he had a perfect right to stick his tongue in my mouth."

 

 

oint taken.  Yes, at the very least it was assault. 

 

But, you know, it is just another example of how entertainment writers and producers in general (and, specifically on this show) don't respect "that line."  I'm not saying shows need to be squeaky clean, but I do think there should be at least accountability, if not consequences, for such matters.

 

And, at the risk of opening up a whole other can of worms..what would the reaction have been if Nick were the magical one and Adalind was in a romance with, for the sake of example, Renard.  Nick transforms himself into Renard to have sex with Adalind...I have a feeling that would have been much more likely to have been recognized as rape, even thought it was the same situation (we'll ignore the pregnancy here for a moment...)  I'd like to think it is because the generalized Powers That Be are sensitive to women, but honestly I just think they don't want the backlash.  Sadly, the rape of men just isn't taken as seriously.

 

In society, I think there is a general (albeit not universal) move to be more accepting of others and the rights of others.  I wish entertainment would pay attention to that.

[ShadowFacts]

 

But, you know, it is just another example of how entertainment writers and producers in general (and, specifically on this show) don't respect "that line."  I'm not saying shows need to be squeaky clean, but I do think there should be at least accountability, if not consequences, for such matters.

 

Yes, or how about even acknowledgement.  That it even was an issue.  I kind of remember people in the forum being unhappy with Juliette's negative reaction to the incident.  It wasn't popular that she was reacting -- I thought rather mildly -- toward Nick.  Nick's reaction could have been addressed more directly in the story right after it happened, but it wasn't.  It could still come up at this late date, with maybe Wu throwing out a line to Nick about how he must have been really angry being tricked that way.  It seems like male rape is sort of a third rail in our culture.  Men are so uncomfortable about the violent male-on-male kind that they can't even write very well around this kind. It becomes a joke or a nothing.

[Shadda2]

My computer is just being a mess right now so I’ll try typing this in word and hope I can cut and paste.  There are a whole lot of things I put up with on TV I do not put up with in real life.  In the scene with Renard, Adalind and Nick in Renard’s office I think Adalind put it best when she said “a room full of heros” and I think she included herself in that remark. 
Renard used and manipulated Adalind to try to kill Aunt Marie and to get the key from Nick.  She used sex and whatever else means she had at her disposal to do that.  When she failed because Nick forcibly held her down and took her essence (powers) away from her she was thrown away by Renard and her mother.  She sought her revenge by using an innocent (Juilette) person to hurt Nick and Renard.  In the attempt to get her “powers” back she used Renard and was going to use her baby.  Unfortunately for her she fell madly in love with her baby.
Meanwhile Nick, with Renard’s blessing, decided he was the one best to decide what happened to Adalind’s child and ripped her from her mother’s arms and secreted her off to a place Adalind would never find.  Or, in other words, he kidnapped her and held her for his own purposes.  At which point Adalind again sought revenge, as well as attempting to get her baby back, by sleeping (raping if you like) with Nick and taking from him that which he had once taken from her. 
Nope, no heros in that office and certainly no innocents or victims.

[OtterMommy]

Meanwhile Nick, with Renard’s blessing, decided he was the one best to decide what happened to Adalind’s child and ripped her from her mother’s arms and secreted her off to a place Adalind would never find.  

 

Actually, it was Kelly who decided that (but, yes, Nick--and Juliette, Monroe, Rosalee, Sean, and Hank all went along with it).