Killian Jones/Captain Hook: One Handed Pirate With A Drinking Problem

[YaddaYadda]

There's a huge difference between what happened on the beanstalk and what happened after she cursed him. What set him off is that she lied to him. I think had she been honest with him about having the sword, and then them talking about whether or not he should have it, he would have been okay with that.

 

Hook has always chosen his words carefully when speaking to Emma after they put their differences aside. I don't have a problem with what he said to her, but I think it sucks that the darkness had to basically expose how hurt he was by her actions. It's something that should have been addressed between them a long time ago.

[Shanna Marie]

I'm inclined to believe that if Emma hadn't been the one to make him the Dark One over his objections, he probably would have been begging her to take/get the sword and keep him from doing harm, and he would have trusted her to find a way to save him. But then if she hadn't done it, she also wouldn't have made a turn into greater darkness, so she probably would have been thinking more clearly and would have been better able to deal with him.

 

But going into something like that already angry about what he saw as a huge betrayal by the person he loves and trusts the most probably sent him over the edge a lot more quickly, and he wasn't inclined to cut her any slack at all. And because she'd gone deeper into darkness, she wasn't equipped to help him and tended to make darkness-driven decisions that leaned more toward deception than trust.

[KAOS Agent]

Nimue said that the light is what has always held the Dark Ones back from their true evil plan which is evil world domination? I don't what they want, but anyway the previous Dark Ones we've seen on this show have always had something keeping them nominally in the light. Nimue had Merlin, Rumpel had Bae and Belle, Emma has a bunch of friends and family and a protective streak a mile wide, Hook had Emma. Unfortunately, things with Emma went badly because of the betrayal of turning him dark and later lying about the sword. Hook had lost his tether to the light and there was Nimue offering him what he wanted: revenge on Rumpel and the opportunity to hurt Emma. He didn't care what the outcome of helping Nimue was because he had nothing to live for beyond those two things. Hook seemed to go full on Dark One because he didn't have anything holding him back.

 

One of the things I really liked about Dark Hook was that he did express a lot of things that bothered him about his life. Not only did he hit out at Emma, but he wasn't particularly happy with Regina and called her out on the inappropriate way she addresses him. Hook spends a lot of time biting his tongue, doesn't he? It's too bad none of this will ever be brought up again.

[PixiePaws1]

There's a huge difference between what happened on the beanstalk and what happened after she cursed him. What set him off is that she lied to him. I think had she been honest with him about having the sword, and then them talking about whether or not he should have it, he would have been okay with that..

I thought things would have gone very differently if she was waiting for him to emerge from the vault and holding the sword out to him.

Hmmm...fanfic prompt, anyone,

[mjgchick]

I don't know he said "Once you lied about Excalibur all bets were off." Sounds like to me had Emma trusted him with the sword he'd been ok. The way he kept going on and on about her not trusting him sounds like to me why he really lost it in Camelot and then in Storybrook because she wanted to do everything on her own. It just felt like Adam and Eddys lesson to Emma was her not trusting people more and it goes all the way back to Hooks "Try something new, its called trust." That's all I keep getting.

[YaddaYadda]

It's not just the lies. I think he would have been okay if she had told him the truth.

 

But Clippy and Zelena also played in his head with the whole Emma can make him do whatever she wants, he's her lovesick puppy dog, her boy toy. And it's not the first time that happened.

 

It became the lies, the issue of control, and him almost wanting to prove that he's not what Clippy and Zelena said he is. He made a point right before crushing Merlin's heart to say that the person who said Emma was his happy ending was Killian Jones, her lovesick puppy and that he died the second she turned him into a Dark One.

 

Hook --- Tons of issues. 

 

Issues that will never be addressed, sadly.

[Dianthus]

Hook definitely has a LOT of issues. Another thing I would add is that Hook's past experiences of hero-worshipping people he saw as "good" have ended disastrously. His father, who he admired so much that he wanted to be "just like" him, betrayed him and his brother as children and sold them into the EF version of slavery. His brother, who he saw as a great leader and who he would follow to the ends of the earth, was too trusting of another person's goodness, a blindness that led to his death. From S2 Hook's view, heroes who try to do "good" things are really just stupid and weak, allowing other people to ruin their lives rather than taking what they want. We see this view of heroes in the deleted scene where Hook tells David, "Actually, in my experience, honour causes death" when David declares that "honour transcends death", an idea which is entirely contradicted by Hook's past experiences with "honour". Hook had slowly been changing this mindset, helped by the example of Emma: a hero who is clearly not stupid and doesn't trust blindly, but who fights to save and protect the ones she loves. He fully accepted that being good doesn't equal being weak when he sacrificed himself in the AU for her, something that required an enormous amount of courage and worked out alright in the end, with Hook finally identifying as a "hero" immediately after. Then Season 5 happened and basically everything he had finally accepted was turned on its head: Emma did nothing wrong and yet she had to sacrifice herself for everyone else and be put through an enormous amount of suffering because "that's what heroes do", while genuinely bad people (Arthur, Zelena, Rumple, I would even say Regina) got off with very mild or no punishment. Then Hook himself did something heroic by fighting Arthur for Excalibur only to be almost killed and turned into the thing he hates most by the woman he loves and thought he could trust never to do that to him. Essentially, all the heroic things people did in S5 only succeeded in making their lives miserable and, coupled with the darkness, caused Hook's S2 mindset to come roaring back to life. He viewed his recent "good" deeds as weak and stupid ("lovesick puppy dog") while his "bad" deeds were seen as smart, strong and just ("I want to hurt you like you hurt me", "now no-one will ever control me again"). He was able to snap out of it when he saw Emma being force-choked by Nimue and realised that, rather than making him strong and free from others' control, bad deeds had only made him a slave to the darkness and his own selfish desires. He once again realised that, in this instance, doing the right thing and having the courage to sacrifice himself for everyone else, as he did before, was not weak. Hook had the same epiphany Emma had when Cora tried to rip out her heart: love isn't weakness. "It's strength."

When Emma and everyone else succeed in bringing him back from the dead, I think Hook will fully accept that doing the right thing can end well after all.

From your keyboard....

[Shanna Marie]

But Clippy and Zelena also played in his head with the whole Emma can make him do whatever she wants, he's her lovesick puppy dog, her boy toy.

Which probably wasn't helped by the fact that she disregarded his wishes and made him a Dark One to keep him alive. It wasn't just a case of her suspecting what he might or might not want her to do. He flat out told her what he wanted, begged her not to do it, and she did it. Which leaves the impression that she considers him her possession to do with as she pleases, her boy toy, her pet about whom she has to make all the major decisions.

 

When he's thinking clearly, I'm sure he'll be able to see it as how strong her love for him was, but when he's in a dark place and has those voices chattering at him, that's probably where his mind went.

 

It also made matters worse that when he was begging her not to do it, she told him she believed in him -- and then right away, she showed she didn't believe in him because she kept the sword from him and lied about it. That makes it look less like "I love you and believe in you, so this is going to work out" and more like "you're my pet and I decide what happens to you."

[YaddaYadda]

It also made matters worse that when he was begging her not to do it, she told him she believed in him -- and then right away, she showed she didn't believe in him because she kept the sword from him and lied about it. That makes it look less like "I love you and believe in you, so this is going to work out" and more like "you're my pet and I decide what happens to you."

 

I kind of give Emma a pass on this much like I'm giving Hook a pass on the things he said and even did. 

 

When Emma said those things to him, yeah, she's the Dark One, but she's not the Dark One that has crossed that line yet where the darkness is taking hold of her, and likely her thoughts. It would have gone a long way to show those voices whispering in Emma's ear about how Hook will never be able to control himself, painting a picture of mayhem for her where it makes her decision to keep the sword from him sort of "legit". 

 

It's like when Hook comes out of the vault and looks kind of pissed, is he pissed because he had to relive those painful moments in the vault, or is he pissed because of what Emma did to him? Did he have it in his head to seek revenge? Or did Clippy put it in his head?

[Shanna Marie]

I kind of give Emma a pass on this much like I'm giving Hook a pass on the things he said and even did.

I definitely give both of them a pass. I totally get what she did and why she did it, and I think Hook will, too, once he's in his right mind. I'm just talking about his mindset while he's filled with Darkness and has clippy Rumple and Nimue in his head, trying to manipulate him into carrying out the Dark One's agenda. If he's in a dark place, it would be easy for him to interpret Emma's actions that way if he already has even a little bit of sensitivity about his position in that relationship, even if it's a mild amusement about it under normal circumstances.

[Souris]

Colin seems to have broken the brewery's website by posting a link to pics of him & Sean working on a beer there, but you can see them here.

Edited February 17, 2016 by Souris

[Dianthus]

What?!? Colin breaks the internet? Must be a day ending in -y.

[kitticup]

I thought you might like this.

tough-lass.tumblr.com/post/138621947394/50-shades-of-cs-chest-glance-requested-by

[Shanna Marie]

While I've been spending most of my time lying on the sofa, recovering from the plague of death, I watched "Poor Unfortunate Souls" with the commentary. The guy with Colin this time wasn't quite as good a partner for him as his usual commentary buddy (the writer). They both tended to be quiet, so it was mostly just them silently watching the episode and occasionally remembering to say something. The writer at least is good about drawing Colin out and getting him to talk about his thought process and the character. I don't think this guy even remembered to ask any questions. Colin doesn't seem to talk unless he's prompted.

 

Anyway, I found myself wondering how much of 5A they had planned during 4B because, wow, was there a lot of foreshadowing, with the talk about Hook's name being on the dagger and David worried about Ursula having turned Hook. There was so much focus on the question of Emma's capacity for darkness that the hints about Hook just slid by.

[daxx]

I haven't watched poor unfortunate soul this hiatus. I'm ReWatching from the pilot with my friend who is watching for the first time but we only have time for about 3-4 eps each week when we meet. Just finished quite a common fairy.

I may watch Poor Unfortunate Soul this weekend though.

[Shanna Marie]

The other bit of "foreshadowing? Hmmm" was in the commentary, though it did make me want to reach into the TV and slap the director. Colin had just been talking about enjoying playing "old" Hook because he was so unpredictable -- that he's a bad guy during that phase, but not entirely, and he can be quite genuine in trying to be nice and do the right thing, like he was with Ursula, where he really wanted to help her, but then his revenge kicks in and he suddenly shifts. The director then said, "So, what you're saying is you like the chance to be evil." Uh, did you not listen to what he just said? It's the shifts that he said he found interesting. But it did make me wonder if the director, who's apparently also a producer, knew that they were planning something and Colin would get to be playing full-on evil.

[Faemonic]

That better have been foreshadowing, or else it's distressingly reductive and I'd wonder if that director-producer is also...a writer? Because the thematic and characterization reductiveness is sometimes what stresses me about this show. I also wrote somewhere else about how fun it was to watch Colin play Darth Jones as crazy-evil-crazy, and how disappointing it was that he settled in Swan Song for one-note grr-evil, and I didn't know whether to blame the writer or the director. Being purely evil or purely puppy isn't what I like about Hook, either, it's that he'll be upfront about being dodgy, and then use his personal vulnerability as a weapon (how he bonds with Bae, Ursula, and Emma--and then how he ruins those bonds, or almost in the third case), and then much later throw a rude and possibly dangerous tantrum to get something done that's Important but Ariel would still give him a good slap for how he went about it.

[HoodlumSheep]

^ I partially blame it on the little time we got to see of Dark Hook (scrunching it all into 2 episodes wasn't smart; I'll forever curse The Bear King), but I mostly blame it on the whole "hive mind" aspect they went for in Swan Song. I thought his evilness seemed fine in 5x10 because it was focused on the revenge, etc., but in 5x11 stuff seemed to shift and it very much became about doing what the death eater ring wraith groupies all wanted.

He kind of lost his individuality in 5x11, same with Nimue in my opinion. Maybe that was the point, but I don't think it translated as well as they intended?

[YaddaYadda]

Hook is a bit of a mixed bag.

 

Everything is Dark One outfit except for his leather jacket, which makes zero sense to me.

 

Hey guys! He died a Dark One, but not really.

Edited March 7, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Shanna Marie]

Then there's the issue that this isn't his physical body. His body, in its Dark One clothes and with the missing hand, is somewhere in Storybrooke, either in the morgue or a coffin. So there's no reason for him to be dressed the way he died, to have a hook for a hand, or anything like that. James is running around in modern clothes in spite of never having been in Storybrooke, Pan died as Malcolm but now looks like Pan, wearing Rumple's suit. So there's no pattern of logic to anyone's Underworld appearance.

 

I'm not convinced that the image of Hook Emma saw was real.

[Curio]

I hope the image of Hook was real. Hook has always stood out amongst all the other villains on the show because he actually has proper karma thrown his way constantly, and it seems fitting that he should be tortured in the Underworld for all his past crimes before he can take the next step with Emma. If he's going to end up having the happiest of all happy endings with Emma "The Savior" Swan in his future, he needs to really, really earn it. 

 

Was Hook's mutilated face the most gruesome image this show has done to date? Usually, they avoid showing blood and gore (Hook's chopped off hand only had a small droplet of blood come out), so I'm pleasantly surprised they actually went for a more realistic and brutal visual in the Underworld. If they're going to make him suffer, they might as well do it properly and make it look nasty. I'm of the opinion that the more Hook suffers in the Underworld the better his redemption will be when he finally gets out, so I'm okay with him suffering for a bit. What I've always enjoyed about his character is that his rewards rarely get handed to him easily by the writers. 

[YaddaYadda]

Usually, they avoid showing blood and gore (Hook's chopped off hand only had a small droplet of blood come out), so I'm pleasantly surprised they actually went for a more realistic and brutal visual in the Underworld.

 

You forget that Hook was stabbed in the gut twice. The first one by Rumple, and the blade on the other side came out bloodied. The second time, by Emma, same effect. 

 

Seems the only blood they enjoy spilling is Hook's.

 

There better some insane reward attached to that kind of brutality.

[YaddaYadda]

Zoe, you're right, he's all Dark One outfit, including the jacket. I stand corrected.

[Shanna Marie]

I guess I suspected that the image of beat-up Hook wasn't real because of genre awareness -- it's pretty much a given in fantasy that if you have a magical vision of a loved one that isn't entirely clear, it's not going to be what you think it is, either out of context or faked to manipulate you. If you wanted to bait a trap for Emma, showing her a tortured Hook would be the best way to do it. But thinking about it, I don't believe that's what's going on here because Hades seemed to want the Storybrooke gang to leave, and giving Emma a fake vision of a tortured Hook would be the worst way to do that. If that's what he wanted, then he would have shown her an image of Hook being happy with Milah, so she'd feel like she should let him be. Though I guess if Hades wanted the others to leave and Emma to stay, tortured Hook might have been the way of making Emma more determined and making her want to send the others away (which is pretty much what happened). But I don't think this show is being that subtle.

 

However, I'm not sure that Hook is being tortured for being bad or having died as a Dark One, but rather for being good, perhaps for foiling the plan to let all the Dark Ones go to the world of the living or for refusing to cooperate with Hades. If James, who committed genocide of the giants, and the Blind Witch, who ate children, are fine and dandy and living ordinary lives rather than being tortured, I can't imagine Hook's crimes warranting torture. It still counts as karma, and no one can say after this that he hasn't suffered in proportion to his wrongs (that justice equation I created last summer is going to be really unbalanced for Hook), but I don't think that beat-up state is because he was a bad boy. It would be an interesting turn of events if Hook is being tortured for being good.

[Curio]

It would be an interesting turn of events if Hook is being tortured for being good.

 

Like girlfriend, like boyfriend.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Curio

[Shanna Marie]

Like girlfriend, like boyfriend.

Well, Emma seems to be cosmically punished for each good deed, but no one's yet locked her up and beat the hell out of her to directly punish her for doing something good, so that would be different.

 

But, yeah, some people get terrible consequences for their good deeds, and some people get rewarded for their bad deeds. This show is so morally screwy.

[mjgchick]

Hook is wearing his leather jacket. His Dark One jacket wasn't leather right?

Both Hook and Emma got the raw deal after doing good. Emma was tortured psychological while Hook is far as we know is physically being tortured. Man Storybrook better celebrate those two for a whole week after this season.

Edited March 9, 2016 by mjgchick

[HoodlumSheep]

Captain Killian Jones. That made me smile.

Also, it looks we might have to add another tally mark to the "manipulation" board. Seriously. The torture is bad enough. Now we have possible manipulation thrown into the mixture. He literally just had a breakthrough regarding manipulation and control in Swan Song and now he's thrown straight back into it. :(

[mjgchick]

Damn Killian, back at it again with having no chill when someone in power is threatening you. Liam would be so proud. lol

The smile Emma had when she hears that Hook sacrificed himself for Meg was sweet also. She's so proud of her man.

[scenicbyway]

Hook is wearing his leather jacket. His Dark One jacket wasn't leather right?

Both Hook and Emma got the raw deal after doing good. Emma was tortured psychological while Hook is far as we know is physically being tortured. Man Storybrook better celebrate those two for a whole week after this season.

Seriously though, how are either one of them ever recover from this?  Have we ever seen a prisoner treated this way on the show?  Why is he even a prisoner?  It makes no sense that he's being tortured.  At first I thought it was because he was a past villain or DO but, as we've seen the villians get a pretty normal life comparable with the "heroes"' in the Underworld.  I hope it's explained why Hook is being treated this was, because it's awful to look at.

Edited March 14, 2016 by scenicbyway

[YaddaYadda]

Yeah, there better be a good reason as to why he is being treated this way. It's pretty gratuitous as far as I'm concerned, especially on a show that hasn't shown someone bleeding in a long time. This season though, Hook's blood is all over the place.

 

I know I won't be satsfied with it's because he used to be bad, or because he was a Dark One. Hades just seems to hate him.

[Shanna Marie]

I mentioned the torture issue in the episode thread. It would help if we knew what was going on. We don't need to see him being flayed or beaten, but we should get a hint of who's doing it to him and why. It sounded like from what he said to Meg that Hades was the one who'd hurt him. His injuries don't look like systematic torture, though. He looks more like he's gone through some ordeal from which he barely escaped. He's limping and holding one side, like maybe he's got broken ribs. Has he been thrown into various dungeons with different kinds of hellbeasts as guards, so he got hurt trying to escape? Is he being put through this because the first thing he did when he arrived in the Underworld was mouth off at Hades? Is he being punished? Is he being interrogated? Is he being tested? Has he refused to cooperate with Hades? As it is, it looks like the writers don't even know, that they just made him look like he's suffering to raise the stakes.

 

It also would have been nice to see his side of the Skype with Emma, so we know how much he knows, how he reacted, what was really happening to him when it happened, when/how he passed out to wake up in the alcove with Cerebus and Meg.

[mjgchick]

I first thought Hook was holding the side Emma stabbed him at but I don't know now. Does anyone still see the scratch from Excalibur? He has like guts on the collar of his jacket. Yikes.

[Shanna Marie]

I first thought Hook was holding the side Emma stabbed him at but I don't know now.

I thought he was stabbed in the guts in the middle and kind of to the right, but he was holding his ribs on his left side. He had lots of cuts on his neck, though it's hard to tell from all the blood he was covered with. I was kind of worried about the amount of time poor Colin must be having to spend in makeup, but maybe they just need to stick the prosthetic swollen eye on and then hose him down with fake blood. Didn't notice the guts. Ew.

[Curio]

I mentioned the torture issue in the episode thread. It would help if we knew what was going on. We don't need to see him being flayed or beaten, but we should get a hint of who's doing it to him and why.

A lot of the writing in the past episode forced us to take some big mental leaps to tie events and images together because of Offscreenville. We had to take the mental leap that Hook could actually hear Emma throughout the Skype call. We had to take the mental leap that he wasn't in that particular jail cell before the Skype call because he didn't recognize Meg. We had to take the mental leap that Hades has been beating Hook up with some kind of blunt tool because of how nonchalant Hook was when Hades presented him with the chisel. "Get on with it, then" makes it seem like Hades had tortured Hook with a similar instrument before. On the one hand, I understand why the writers want most of the torture to happen off screen because a good portion of their audience is young, but like a lot of people have been saying here, we need to know why he's being tortured. I doubt it's just because he likes to sass back at Hades.

 

It also would have been nice to see his side of the Skype with Emma, so we know how much he knows, how he reacted, what was really happening to him when it happened, when/how he passed out to wake up in the alcove with Cerebus and Meg.

Unfortunately, this happens way too often on this show—the writers always skip over the emotional character beats to get to the more exciting action/plot scenes. We skip over Hook's side of the Skype call and go straight to him realizing Emma came to save him. Based on Colin's interviews, he made it seem like he thought no one would save him, so why didn't we see that on screen? Wouldn't seeing Hook go from thinking he's hopeless to suddenly having hope be something an actor would want to chew on? Wouldn't that be something a writer would want to dig into?

I don't know why I still set such high standards for this show when it comes to emotional payoffs, though. I mean, we missed: Hook's emotional reaction to receiving Neal's note to save Emma, Hook's emotional reaction to having to trade his home for Emma, Hook's emotional/fish-out-of-water reaction to having to navigate NYC by himself, Emma's emotional reaction to seeing her boyfriend nearly get killed in the clocktower, Belle's emotional reaction to figuring out Rumple chose the darkness over her, Emma's emotional reaction/conversation with her parents about the egg baby nonsense (and not just the aftermath of the conversation)...

[mjgchick]

It seems Killian only knew based on him knowing Emma would come. His line to Meg "When you love someone you just know." and the episode before Emma thought Hook didn't know if she cared.

[YaddaYadda]

It seems Killian only knew based on him knowing Emma would come. His line to Meg "When you love someone you just know." and the episode before Emma thought Hook didn't know if she cared.

 

No, he saw her. Meg asked him how he knew this isn't a trick from Hades, and that's when he answered that when you love someone you just know. So he saw her. She got him the message that they were there, the WiFi just sucks where he's being held.

[Shanna Marie]

It seems Killian only knew based on him knowing Emma would come. His line to Meg "When you love someone you just know."

I thought he mentioned her message, though. Then Meg asked how he knew that wasn't just one of Hades' tricks, and that's when he said "When you love someone you just know," meaning that he knew the message was really from Emma and wasn't a trick. So he saw something of the attempted Skype, but we don't know what. Was he with Hades when it happened, and Hades was the one who cut it off? Was Hook near the point of giving up, but the message gave him his sass back, and that's what landed him in the cell?

 

I did a quick skim-through rewatch last night, and I didn't see any guts on his collar. It just looked to me like his collar was all shiny because it was soaked in fresh blood (still, ew). I did notice that he said something about "This isn't the first cell I've been in" when talking about how he didn't just sit around and wait to rot. At first, I took that to be about his pirate past, where surely he's been arrested at least once, and he's good at escaping, but now I wonder if maybe it was about his time in the Underworld, where he's been thrown in a variety of prisons and he's in the condition he's in because he gets injured while trying to escape and/or is punished for attempting to escape.

 

Although his injuries are terrible looking, I'm finding myself rather clinical about it all because on this show, that doesn't amount to very high stakes. With Emma's superpowered healing abilities, we know those injuries are likely to be gone with one touch the moment they're reunited. Even his clothes will have "healed." And that's not his physical body, anyway, so even if he didn't heal, those wounds probably won't be there when he's brought back to life (though there is that little issue of the unhealable mortal wounds on his physical body). Since all this torture is happening to his soul, if these were more thoughtful writers I'd be worried that even if he is physically healed, he's being set up for some serious emotional/psychological issues, the PTSD case from hell (literally). Between the death(s), the time as Dark One, and all the torture, he's got all the ingredients for quite a bit of time trying to avoid sleep because of the kind of nightmares that make him wake up screaming. On this show, they're bad about not really thinking about how events would really affect their characters or how their characters would really react to things, so he's likely going to be just fine, with all these events forgotten as they launch into the next plot. I don't imagine he'll be staying on the Jolly Roger rather than moving into the picket fence house with Emma because he doesn't want her to know he wakes up screaming in the middle of the night from reliving all that torture, and he's not going to be starting regular sessions with Archie to work out all his trauma (with Pongo having to be out of the room at first until he gets past some issues with dogs, regardless of the number of heads).

[KAOS Agent]

 

So he saw her. She got him the message that they were there, the WiFi just sucks where he's being held.

 

I kind of assumed that he was unconscious when Emma tried to contact him and that's why there wasn't a response and the connection was bad. It was like he woke up in that cell immediately after she contacted him. That's why his first reaction was to ask if it was a trick because he thought he was dreaming. Then after a minute to get his thoughts in order, he realized that it was real and Emma was really coming for him and he better work to help her out.

[Camera One]

He looked more injured in the vision from the first episode, than in this one.  Maybe because he kept his injured eye closed mostly in this second episode?  It did feel weirdly abrupt in terms of how he responded to Emma during the "Skype" call, and then his attitude in this one.  Which can be explained away as per above, but still abrupt.

[scenicbyway]

I thought it was nice we got to see Milah and Hook's first meeting and he was a gentleman.

 

I am wondering though, Devil's Due confirmed that Hook has been in a "relationship" with both Milah and Emma, both mothers, yet he and Milah never had any children. It makes sense that Emma would be using modern birth control, but I guess I'm wondering if we'll find out he can't have children.

[YaddaYadda]

I thought it was nice we got to see Milah and Hook's first meeting and he was a gentleman.

 

I am wondering though, Devil's Due confirmed that Hook has been in a "relationship" with both Milah and Emma, both mothers, yet he and Milah never had any children. It makes sense that Emma would be using modern birth control, but I guess I'm wondering if we'll find out he can't have children.

 

Maybe Milah didn't want to have children because of Rumple's contract? Because she didn't know if it would extend to her. Bae was both hers and Rumple, so maybe she decided not to chance it?

 

Plus I'm sure the EF had their own form of birth control with herbs, and stuff like that.

[KAOS Agent]

I'm seeing a lot of stuff being thrown at Emma for making decisions about the heart splitting thing without Hook's input, but you know, all he had to do was say no. Or tell her they needed to talk about it first. No one was holding him down and forcing it on him. He may not have been thrilled at the idea and had some qualms about it, but he could easily have put a stop to it. Did he tell Emma he wasn't comfortable with it? Did he communicate his need to have this be a joint decision? Emma is used to leading and having him let her do so, so if he wants them to be more equal in the decision making from now on given how she steamrolled over his wishes in Camelot (and keeping in mind that Emma was compromised by the Darkness at that point) then he should speak up and say hey let's talk about this first. If she goes ahead and does it anyway at that point, then you have a problem, but if he's not communicating an unhappiness with the plan I don't know why anyone would believe he's anything other than down with it.

[daxx]

Although shouldn't she have apprised him of the plan and gotten his input/ok before calling over Regina to rip her heart out?

Obviously he was tired and hurting. Not really in a good place to stand up for himself. Not to mention what just happened with Milah.

[Camera One]

LOL, now I'm imagining Emma wheeling Hook in on a hand truck with his hands tied wearing psychiatric hospital garb while Regina puts on blue gloves to do the surgical insertion.

[KAOS Agent]

Although shouldn't she have apprised him of the plan and gotten his input/ok before calling over Regina to rip her heart out?Obviously he was tired and hurting. Not really in a good place to stand up for himself.

 

He was well enough to yell at Rumpel. I'm sure he was capable of saying no. And Emma should have told him her plan, but who knows what went on in Offscreenville? They were busy dealing with a vengeful Hades (so they thought) and processing the loss of Milah and discussing how Gold is an asshole who'd rendered Hook's sacrifice moot. There was a lot to cover, he was hurting and maybe she didn't get to that point. All it would have taken was a quick you didn't tell me that part and we need to talk about it to show he's not okay with the idea. I'm not saying Emma is right in this instance. I'm saying that he had a choice to say no and stop this plan. He wasn't stripped of his agency like it seems some are thinking.

Edited March 22, 2016 by KAOS Agent

[Rumsy4]

Obviously he was tired and hurting. Not really in a good place to stand up for himself. Not to mention what just happened with Milah.

 

Yeah. The poor guy got tortured to within an inch of his... death. He was in no state to object.

[Curio]

It would also come off as completely douchey and ungrateful if he was just like, "Ehhhh, maybe let's not do this right this second. We need to talk first." If it was just Emma and him in a room privately he might have spoken up, but with a room full of people and her entire family there waiting to return home, I can see why he kept his mouth shut if he had any objection to it. Who knows, maybe we're reading too much into Colin's facial expression, too.

 

But I do agree that Hook tends to keep quiet and not tell Emma what's on his mind as often as he should. Yes, she takes the lead and makes decisions for him, but he's also the one who's encouraged this behavior in the past and has always supported her. She can't read his mind, so he needs to learn to speak up and break down some of his own walls. Emma has broken down her walls for him, now he needs to do the same for her.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Curio

[Camera One]

There was also an added urgency to the scene.  He had just escaped from Hade's clutches and if he stays, wouldn't he be deader meat?  So it makes sense that they would want to do the nonsensical heart splitting procedure quickly so they can escape using their non-existent plan.  But then, in the next scene, they're lounging at the cemetery again, and I'm guessing next episode will have everyone returning to their leisurely pace acting like they're on an all-expense paid vacation to Club Dead.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

But I do agree that Hook tends to keep quiet and not tell Emma what's on his mind as often as he should. Yes, she takes the lead and makes decisions for him, but he's also the one who's encouraged this behavior in the past and has always supported her. She can't read his mind, so he needs to learn to speak up and break down some of his own walls. Emma has broken down her walls for him, now he needs to do the same for her.

He almost literally just told her not to take away his agency when she made him a Dark One, and gave her this whole speech about how he hated not being in control. Clearly the message didn't entirely sink in.