Killian Jones/Captain Hook: One Handed Pirate With A Drinking Problem

[Souris]

Colin & Sean at Grouse Mountain today.

[mjgchick]

How do you cut Hook talking about his abandonment issues while Emma learns something that's happened during her childhood? I knew their was something missing in that scene where he and Emma were looking at her art work from when she was a child. He mentioned being young once and I thought he was going to say more after she joked about him being geriatric but those stupid editors/writers cut the part where he talks about his father leaving him. Why do this show refuses to let these characters breathe for a hot minute?

[Curio]

How do you cut Hook talking about his abandonment issues while Emma learns something that's happened during her childhood?

 
Because that's dealing with a strange thing called character development and giving a backstory to a character who desperately needs it. No one is interested in silly stuff like that. Instead, it was more important to watch Belle go on a pointless adventure with Anna to find a pebble which lead to absolutely no where because Belle didn't even freaking listen to Anna's advice, nor did she even get to interact with Anna when she finally came to Storybrooke.
 
GAH!!!!!
 

[mjgchick]

It did sound like Adam is saying it's a working progress so maybe we will get something like it but still this is me until it happens

[HoodlumSheep]

There, there Curio. We could still get a similar scene (or even more) in the future. At least Adam said there's still a possibility of it (or a similar one) in the future (like, he sounded decently genuine).

Edited August 19, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Panopticon]

Excuse me a moment while I throw a temper tantrum.

THEY FILLED IN BLANKS IN HOOK'S BACKSTORY AND DIDN'T LET US SEE IT?? WE HAVE EPISODE AFTER EPISODE OF THE MINUTIAE OF REGINA'S LIFE IN FAIRYBACKS BUT ONE QUICK HOOK MONOLOGUE GOES TO THE CUTTING ROOM FLOOR? EMMA AND HOOK HAD AN ACTUAL TALK ABOUT BOTH OF THEIR PASTS LIKE THEIR RELATIONSHIP WAS DEVELOPING OR SOMETHING?

Okay, done yelling. And appreciative that Hook and Hook/Emma get better treatment than many characters and most couples. But still annoyed.

This is something I actively wasted brain cells wondering about. Where was Liam when Papa Jones ditched li'l Killian on the ship? Did the ditching on the ship thing even happen, or was that something Hook made up to gain Baelfire's sympathy? (I don't consider post-Liam pre-Emma Hook to be a particularly reliable narrator.)

Now we know, at least. The ditching on the ship story was true and Liam was there. I guess this also confirms that Killian and Liam share a family of origin rather than becoming honorary brothers later in life.

I will somewhat miss my headcanon that Liam was already in the Navy and Killian was all by himself on the boat. When he's begging to be allowed to stay and work as a cabin boy, someone gives in because he's so cute, and advises him to take care of his pretty face because this may not be the last time it's all he's got. Killian manages for a couple of years and then his ship crosses paths with Liam's. Liam had heard of their father's vanishing act and thought Killian might be dead. Upon reunion, Liam tells Killian he's a survivor.

But I'll take the pseudo-cutting-room-floor-canon.

[Souris]

Adam was clear it's not considered canon, so they're free to go a different route if they ever actually delve into it in future. All head canons are still viable!

[Curio]

There, there Curio. We could still get a similar scene (or even more) in the future. At least Adam said there's still a possibility of it (or a similar one) in the future (like, he sounded decently genuine).

 

I appreciate the positive attitude, HoodlumSheep, but this probably means we won't get another scene like this until another Hook-centric episode. Which could be months from now. I'm an impatient person and damn it I want my favorite character to finally get fleshed out on screen! If we can spend an entire episode centered around Regina murdering a poor groom on his wedding day, going on a date with Nottingham, and using magic to make a tattoo lion come to life, why the hell can't we spend an extra 40 seconds on quick monologue about Hook's childhood and how he can relate to Emma?

[Dianthus]

It throws my head canon for a loop as well, tho' mine was quite different. I was taking Hook at his word of always being a gentleman (i.e., Quality). If the ship's captain was on the up-and-up and recognized Father as a toff, some effort might've gone into finding him. What if the captain turned the boys over to the Harbormaster at the next port in the meantime? That would give two foundlings an in at the Royal Naval Academy so they could be officers instead of common sailors.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Dianthus

[Shanna Marie]

I'm okay with the scene not being that way in the episode, and not just because it messes with my personal headcanon. For one thing, I'd rather see it (we can skip the flashback about Regina stubbing her toe on something Snow dropped to fit it in) than have it told in a monologue. For another, one big thing I liked about the way Hook handled all of Emma's trauma about her past in 4A was the fact that we (the audience) know he's got a story there and that he can identify with what she went through, but he just shows Emma empathy and keeps the focus entirely on her without making it at all about him. There's such a fine line between sharing a personal experience that can help and coming across like you're trying to one-up the person -- "you think your childhood was rough, wait'll you hear what I went through" -- or fishing for sympathy. Sometimes, when you're dealing with something, all you want is the "there, there." You don't want to hear anyone else's story, even in sympathy. So I thought it was cool that he held back and kept his focus on her. That wasn't the time or the place for him to bring up his stuff.

 

When he told Bae, Bae was holding back on being able to talk about it, and Hook's story made it easier for him to open up, so that was a more apt situation.

[KAOS Agent]

I understand why it was cut and can even see why they don't want it to be considered canon, but I like the glimpse into Hook's mind about how he looks at Emma. He wasn't trying even remotely to one up her, just expressing that he understands the feelings of abandonment. If he felt so horribly while he still had his brother to cling to, how much worse must it have been for Emma who was all alone? And he knows she's been abandoned multiple times. For me, it helps to show why Hook understands Emma so much better than Snow. He thinks about things and realizes that some hurts cannot ever be healed, while Snow doesn't have that frame of reference and just can't comprehend why Emma reacts the way she does.

 

It's always bothered me that in Neverland, Snow thought she understood how Emma knew the difference between a place to sleep and a home because she'd lived it too. But there's a big difference in Emma's search for a home and Snow's loss of one and it seemed like Snow wasn't grasping the idea that while there was an understanding of the concept, it wasn't coming from the same place. From one brief piece of dialogue here, it shows that Hook grasps that his experience gives him some understanding of the feeling, but it's not the same and he can only imagine how bad it was for her.

Edited August 19, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[RadioGirl27]

I'm glad they cut it. That speech was just a lazy retcon of what we already know about Hook's childhood. Instead of trying to find a plausible explanation of why Liam wasn't with them when his father left, they have just inserted Liam in the story he told Bae.

 

There, there Curio. We could still get a similar scene (or even more) in the future. At least Adam said there's still a possibility of it (or a similar one) in the future (like, he sounded decently genuine).

I wouldn't hold my breath, Adam has been saying this for two seasons now, that "someday" we are going to learn more about Hook's childhood and about Hook's father.

[YaddaYadda]

I'm glad they cut it. That speech was just a lazy retcon of what we already know about Hook's childhood. Instead of trying to find a plausible explanation of why Liam wasn't with them when his father left, they have just inserted Liam in the story he told Bae.

 

Hook's line about his father happened in 2x22 before we knew or the writers decided to write him a brother to push the Neverland arc.  Good Form was in season 3. I'm sure they didn't know Hook would have a brother.  Plus, it's easier for him to mention his brother because Emma knows Hook has one, Bae didn't.

 

I'm fine with the scene being cut.  I remember when it aired, I was filled with a whole bunch of "ugh, why didn't she just ask him?"  And the fact that they don't want us to take it as canon is actually good imo.  Adam said it was still a work in progress, so I'm going to take his word for it.

 

I liked that even in his own pain of being abandoned, Hook realizes he still had his brother while Emma had no one.  It just makes Liam's death all the more tragic.

 

But that "father" is an asshole.  Who needs that in their lives.  It makes me more curious about Hook's upbringing, the way he talks, the dancing and so on.  How did two orphans put themselves through the naval academy and climbed the ranks like that.  It was always an assumption that Liam was already gone when the father left, but now (even though it's not canon), Liam grew up in the exact same circumstances as Killian even if he was a bit older.

 

So this raises more questions, than provides answers. 

Edited August 19, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[sharky]

I think it was good to cut the scene. It was about Emma finding this folder in a van of all of her papers and artwork. Hook going off on his dad or whatever would've taken the focus away from Emma. Plus, as others have mentioned, show me. I would rather have a Hook-centric episode where we see this than have it just be some throwaway lines.

 

That being said, I also find it a little odd. So they were in the middle of the ocean somewhere and the Jones brothers wake up to find their father has taken the dinghy and just rowed away? Maybe it's because my headcanon was a little more realistic with their father getting off the ship in some port and never coming back. I mean, maybe leaving in the middle of the water creates some sort of backstory with Poseidon or something, but it's just not very logical.

Edited August 19, 2015 by sharky

[RadioGirl27]

Hook's line about his father happened in 2x22 before we knew or the writers decided to write him a brother to push the Neverland arc. Good Form was in season 3. I'm sure they didn't know Hook would have a brother. Plus, it's easier for him to mention his brother because Emma knows Hook has one, Bae didn't.

And that is exactly why I find this speech lazy writting. Instead of searching for a way to integrate Liam in what he told to Bae that didn't change what he had said to him, they were just telling the same story adding the brother. And it's not that difficult, they only had to say that Liam was already in the Navy when the father left.

Edited August 19, 2015 by RadioGirl27

[Panopticon]

Miscellaneous thoughts:

 

I have no issue with the slight inconsistency between what Hook told Baelfire and what he told Emma because, as I said, I always questioned whether he had told Baelfire the truth. I fully believed that Hook would have told Baelfire anything to get him to calm down/listen/stay, whether he had to massage the truth or out-and-out lie.

 

I liked the idea of Hook having told that story to Emma in that conversation at least as much for the sake of Emma's characterization as for Hook's. The bad taste of the godawful cut from Emma shoving Hook's heart back into his chest to drinking with Regina and talking about her trauma (because priorities?) might have been assuaged a bit if there had been a moment earlier in the season where Emma showed interest and concern in Hook's past and issues. I believe that there's more balance in their relationship #offscreen than what we see, but I'd like an onscreen crumb every so often.

 

Hook's speech patterns, skill in library research, skill as a navigator, etc., all suggest significant formal education at a young age. So I accept his "always a gentleman" as truth, but don't think that gentlemanly status necessarily saved him from having to scramble at various moments in his childhood if his mother was gone and his father ran off in disgrace.  Which could make him even more possessive of the gentleman title.

 

Hmm. Maybe Liam did already have a foothold in the Navy when Mr. Jones took off. Liam was en route to a new assignment or on leave and had met up with his father and Killian. That would actually make Mr. Jones' act a little less horrible, if he made sure the younger child was physically with the older, more self-sufficient one when he ran.

[YaddaYadda]

I'm gonna get on my soapbox for a moment if you guys don't mind...

 

We often rage about Once and how we hate this or we hate that and ugh, these fucking writers!  I can't even say I relate to Emma or Hook on any level (though I did lost a sibling more than 20 years ago and I can understand that type of pain).  But Hook and Emma are a true testament to what the human spirit is.  They're those kids who come from nothing, have nothing and make tons of mistakes and get in trouble, and every day is a battle for them, but damn it if they won't prove everyone who thinks they'll never amount to anything wrong. And they turn around and they showeveryone who ever thought they wouldn't make it, that they're not good enough or just plain not enough how wrong they were.

 

I wouldn't bet against those two ever.

 

And I ship it, hard!

[HoodlumSheep]

I don't really think Hook's story was inconsistent, but that's just my opinion. Hook had no need to tell Bae that he had a brother. That piece of info was irrelevant in Hook trying to get Bae to open up about his father. Also, Hook is a pretty private person when it comes to his past, so maybe he didn't want to talk about his brother to Bae.

And yeah, the writers probably didn't know Hook was going to have a brother, but him omitting that part of the story to Bae hardly bothers me. He had no reason why he had to bring up Liam in that convo about bad fathers.

He told Bae his father abandoned him. That was completely true. It just so happens that he also had a brother. Which he has opened up a bit to talking about him with Emma, with whom he's more comfortable talking to about stuff.

Edited August 19, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Curio]

I'd rather see it (we can skip the flashback about Regina stubbing her toe on something Snow dropped to fit it in) than have it told in a monologue.

I 1000% would love to see Hook's past on screen instead of told in a monologue, but my fear is that we'll never get to see it on screen, so a monologue may be the only time we can learn about Hook's past. It's becoming an annoying trend where the writers drop something interesting about Hook's story in favor of other storylines that end up being completely lame. Hook went on a crazy adventure to find a magic bean to find Emma in NYC? Let's sum that up in a 20-second spoken monologue and instead show the stupid Marian/Robin/Regina triangle on screen. Hook left a heartfelt confession to Emma on her phone? Let's throw out the phone and never address it. Hook's heart was taken by his arch nemesis and was nearly killed in front of his girlfriend? Hook gets one line where he says he's a survivor and she immediately goes off to have shots with Regina. Apparently all of Hook and Henry's sailing and bonding has happened off screen. So all of that, on top of Hook being missing for large chunks of time during 4B, makes reading this missing script all the more painful. It's just one dropped storyline after another and I'm getting tired of having to trust that the writers will "get to it eventually" because let's be real, "eventually" is either a year from now or never.

 

I liked the idea of Hook having told that story to Emma in that conversation at least as much for the sake of Emma's characterization as for Hook's. The bad taste of the godawful cut from Emma shoving Hook's heart back into his chest to drinking with Regina and talking about her trauma (because priorities?) might have been assuaged a bit if there had been a moment earlier in the season where Emma showed interest and concern in Hook's past and issues.

I'm conflicted about reading this missing script because on the one hand, the canon scene makes Hook appear like a patient and understanding person because he could have told Emma about his past, but instead decided to comfort Emma and keep the focus on her pain. On the other hand, had he opened up to Emma, it would have been nice for Emma to realize that someone else can truly empathize with what she went through in her childhood. Unfortunately, the way it played out on screen and the way Emma became so narrow-minded on Operation Dumbass later on in the season, it hurts her characterization a bit because you could interpret her as being uninterested in her boyfriend's past.

 

I don't really think Hook's story was inconsistent, but that's just my opinion. Hook had no need to tell Bae that he had a brother. That piece of info was irrelevant in Hook trying to get Bae to open up about his father. Also, Hook is a pretty private person when it comes to his past, so maybe he didn't want to talk about his brother to Bae.

Exactly. Hook said: "When I was a boy, my father and I boarded a ship with plans to travel the realms. One morning, I awoke, and he was gone. Turned out, he was a fugitive. He had fled in the middle of the night to avoid capture." Just because he didn't include his brother's name in the story doesn't mean it's not true. I can tell someone I got into a car accident in high school, but just because I didn't say my sister and I got into a car accident in high school doesn't make the story false. Also, considering Hook didn't want to talk about Liam to Emma when she asked about him in Neverland, I could see Hook not wanting to not bring up Liam in the place where he died.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Curio

[Rumsy4]

Emma's characterization did suffer from her obsession with Regina and Operation Dumbass, and including this scene would have gone a long way in showing the deep connection between Hook and Emma. But Emma has been supportive of Hook all through 4B, so it's not like this scene was absolutely necessary at that point. I might have worked well with the scene in 4.5, with both Hook and Emma sharing glimpses of their past with each other.

I do hope the writers decide to show this as a flash back at some point. But there's always fanfic to fill in the gaps, I guess.

[Lieutenant]

I 1000% would love to see Hook's past on screen instead of told in a monologue, but my fear is that we'll never get to see it on screen, so a monologue may be the only time we can learn about Hook's past. It's becoming an annoying trend where the writers drop something interesting about Hook's story in favor of other storylines that end up being completely lame. Hook went on a crazy adventure to find a magic bean to find Emma in NYC? Let's sum that up in a 20-second spoken monologue and instead show the stupid Marian/Robin/Regina triangle on screen. Hook left a heartfelt confession to Emma on her phone? Let's throw out the phone and never address it. Hook's heart was taken by his arch nemesis and was nearly killed in front of his girlfriend? Hook gets one line where he says he's a survivor and she immediately goes off to have shots with Regina. So all of that, on top of Hook being missing for large chunks of time during 4B, makes reading this missing script all the more painful. It's just one dropped storyline after another and I'm getting tired of having to trust that the writers will "get to it eventually" because let's be real, "eventually" is either a year from now or never.

This x 1000.  I find it truly confounding that A&E know just how beloved Hook is across the board with the viewing public in general, yet they continue to give his character the shaft when it comes to developing his past.  And how many countless times have we heard from them how they "hope" to discover X,Y, and Z about his history "sometime in the future?" You're the freaking producers!  You can bloody well make it happen if you want it so badly!  And I really hate to say that I just don't believe them anymore, but I don't.  I'll believe it when I see it, I guess.  And it makes me a bit sad, because you just know there's so much there to be discovered that could be so freaking epic.  This character that they've created in Killian Jones has become one of my absolute favorites, really in my entire tv-viewing life, and I really don't understand why they won't do more with him.

 

And Yadda Yadda, I totally love your post too!  Killian and Emma's lives both independently and together are inspiring.  I wish I could explain how much I love them without sounding like a rabid fangirl that's only here for the cute.  It's more than that.  Their story really moves me.  Gives me something to look forward to each week; makes me smile, makes me hope, makes me cry for all they have lost, but also all they've gained in each other.  I seriously doubt I'll find another pair of characters that I will ever love as dearly.  Dammit, show!

[YaddaYadda]

I find it truly confounding that A&E know just how beloved Hook is across the board with the viewing public in general, yet they continue to give his character the shaft when it comes to developing his past.  And how many countless times have we heard from them how they "hope" to discover X,Y, and Z about his history "sometime in the future?" You're the freaking producers!  You can bloody well make it happen if you want it so badly!

 

Adam and Eddy are infuriating when they say that for sure.  But I think I read somewhere on the board that the show had early plans for Rumple's father who was supposed to be murdered back in season 2, but then they dropped that and turned Rumple's father into Pan.

 

I can't pretend that I know what goes on in the writers' room, but I'm assuming that when this episode was discussed, they were all in agreement that this was going to happen.  I'm guessing something changed.  It doesn't even look like it might've been cut in the editing room.  It just seems like it never made it to tape, unless I missed something.

[kingshearte]

And Yadda Yadda, I totally love your post too!  Killian and Emma's lives both independently and together are inspiring.  I wish I could explain how much I love them without sounding like a rabid fangirl that's only here for the cute.  It's more than that.  Their story really moves me.  Gives me something to look forward to each week; makes me smile, makes me hope, makes me cry for all they have lost, but also all they've gained in each other.  I seriously doubt I'll find another pair of characters that I will ever love as dearly.  Dammit, show!

Me too. In my case, I actually didn't even have any particularly strong feelings about either of them until they came together, and now I love them both. I love them together, I love them individually, I just love them. I felt a little of that for S1 Snow & Charming, but Killian & Emma completely dwarfs that, along with, I think, every other TV relationship I've supported (I just can't quite bring myself to call myself a shipper). I don't know what it is, unless it's some kind of honest-to-god magic when those two are together.

[daxx]

I always identified with Emma so much. Then when Hook came on the scene and he recognized a kindred spirit in Emma I was totally hooked (pun intended).

I honestly was concerned the show might chicken out and go the baby daddy route with Neal until after Manhattan then I knew that ship had most definitely sailed. That was not romantic.

I have so much love for both these characters it really is ridiculous.

BTS shots of them make me grin like an idiot.

[LizaD]

 

Adam and Eddy are infuriating when they say that for sure.  But I think I read somewhere on the board that the show had early plans for Rumple's father who was supposed to be murdered back in season 2, but then they dropped that and turned Rumple's father into Pan.

 

I can't pretend that I know what goes on in the writers' room, but I'm assuming that when this episode was discussed, they were all in agreement that this was going to happen.  I'm guessing something changed.  It doesn't even look like it might've been cut in the editing room.  It just seems like it never made it to tape, unless I missed something.

 

They were both taped. So in Rump's case, sometime in between filming Manhattan and editing the episode, they decided they wanted to do something different with Rump's dad in Pan.

 

From what I understand, think I read it on twitter, that the Hook monolgue was also filmed because the writers made the comment that CO and JM did a great job with it.

 

I think it just goes to show that these writers come up with stories or make decisions on the fly. When you're that fluid and flexible, then yeah I can see how stories get dropped or how some stories come out of nowhere.

[HoodlumSheep]

Me too. In my case, I actually didn't even have any particularly strong feelings about either of them until they came together, and now I love them both. I love them together, I love them individually, I just love them. I felt a little of that for S1 Snow & Charming, but Killian & Emma completely dwarfs that, along with, I think, every other TV relationship I've supported (I just can't quite bring myself to call myself a shipper). I don't know what it is, unless it's some kind of honest-to-god magic when those two are together.

I feel the same way too! Although I loved both from the beginning. The only other tv couples that have come somewhat close in terms of this much endearment to me are probably Ben & Leslie from P&R and the Doctor/Rose (Nine/Rose to be more precise).

I feel like A&E's dumbest move would be to NOT address Killy's backstory at some point before the show ends. And while they have made what seems like a zillion and one mistakes regarding this show, I can't help but have hope that this is something they will address eventually.

Edited August 19, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[OnceUponAJen]

I agree with the general sentiment here. If it weren't for Captain Swan, I would've moved on from this show LONG ago.

[sharky]

I think it just goes to show that these writers come up with stories or make decisions on the fly. When you're that fluid and flexible, then yeah I can see how stories get dropped or how some stories come out of nowhere.

Which isn't necessarily a good thing. I think one of the biggest peeves I have about this show is that they obviously don't have a show bible. Yes, I can understand that the story may take a different turn as we go along, and that's fine. But you should have basic origin stories in place for each character that aren't very fluid. Little details, sure, but how a character's father dies or disappears dictates quite a bit about who that character is. Plus, it would be helpful for flashbacks. A&E seem to be so invested in being able to change their minds that nothing concrete or substantial comes from the flashbacks. Think about the Poor Unfortunate Souls flashback or the EF flash forward with Knight Hook or, of course, Good Form. Imagine if there was just a bit of origin story sprinkled in there. A line from Poseidon about how he knows Hook's father, or a line about how Hook needs to get his ship back from Blackbeard because of the love for his brother (which would've tied in nicely with his love for Emma and how he sacrificed his ship for her). It reminds me of those little lines from Rumple about how he sees the irony in things because he can see the future. Why can't we have that instead of throwaway back stories about Regina -- again -- or a whole half season of Frozen characters that we'll never see again shoehorned into random flashbacks about Belle and Charming?

 

And Hoodlum -- I just started getting into Doctor Who, but I started with David Tennant's doctor. I'll have to go back and watch the season before that now. As for my own endearment, Captain Swan reminds me alot of Jim and Pam from The Office. Lots of barriers and walls and when they get past them, their relationship can be real and organic without losing viewers.

[october]

Also feeling the same way over here. I was reading notes from the 4x01 DVD commentary and what Jen says about her and Colin:

 

 

“We have such a good time working together.  It’s one of those things where it’s so rare that, um, you just have that kind of ease with a co-worker when you need to have chemistry and you then can just be with someone and be like ‘Oh, okay.  We don’t have to try to fake this.’”

 

In terms of past couples I've enjoyed they remind me of Aeryn Sun and John Crichton from Farscape. Claudia Black and Ben Browder had a similarly close relationship as actors and friends, and their investment in their characters and the relationship was so great that it shone through on screen.

[KAOS Agent]

If you go back and look at the episode thread for "Family Business" there was a bit of heat on Emma for not expressing interest in her boyfriend when it seemed like he was trying to open up and she seemed to shut him down. It's interesting now to find out that he did open up and she listened. It might not seem like much, but this part being cut while they left the initial part of Hook's trying to connect with her in the dialogue did leave a negative impression of Emma's characterization with some fans.

 

I was also thinking that Hook's past would allow him to try to put himself in Emma's shoes with regards to her parents showing up again. What would he do if his dad showed up now (yes, 300 years later) and after all the trauma he'd suffered through abandonment and all of his anger at his father for it, he found that his father was forced off the ship by villainous pirates and he'd only been trying to protect his sons? How would he react to that? Hook seems to be the only character on this show that could try to relate to Emma and her past experiences based on his own.

[YaddaYadda]

Hook seems to be the only character on this show that could try to relate to Emma and her past experiences based on his own.

 

If that scenario about his father coming back happens and he really left to protect his kids, then Emma can give him that speech that pushed her to forgive her parents for the Lily fuckery.

[Dianthus]

sharky, on 19 Aug 2015 - 05:11 AM, said:

I think it was good to cut the scene. It was about Emma finding this folder in a van of all of her papers and artwork. Hook going off on his dad or whatever would've taken the focus away from Emma. Plus, as others have mentioned, show me. I would rather have a Hook-centric episode where we see this than have it just be some throwaway lines.

 

That being said, I also find it a little odd. So they were in the middle of the ocean somewhere and the Jones brothers wake up to find their father has taken the dinghy and just rowed away? Maybe it's because my headcanon was a little more realistic with their father getting off the ship in some port and never coming back. I mean, maybe leaving in the middle of the water creates some sort of backstory with Poseidon or something, but it's just not very logical.

It's not necessarily the case that they were in the middle of the ocean, tho' I wondered about that too at first. Maybe their ship was in port and the dinghy was docked nearby? An investigation into Father's disappearance could've turned that up (presumably).

When it comes to Liam, I'm still more in the "honorary" brothers headspace. Then again, I never imagined kid!Killian being completely alone, being surrounded by sailors, and maybe passengers. Obviously someone intervened on his behalf somewhere down the line. 

There's an odd parallel here btwn Hook and Rumple (of all people). For all his dickishness, Malcolm did find kid!Rumple a place where he would have someone to look after him (the spinsters) and, just as importantly, learn a skill that would serve him in the future. Whether he stayed on the ship or got handed off to the authorities, whether or not Liam was with him at the time, Hook still had more stability in his early years than poor Emma.

[YaddaYadda]

When it comes to Liam, I'm still more in the "honorary" brothers headspace.

 

Same here.  I think Hook was Liam's foster brother as opposed to his biological brother.  

[HoodlumSheep]

I'm firmly in the biological-brother camp until proven wrong. I think they look enough alike to be siblings. The eyes, the nose, the general shape of the face. The similarity is there. Siblings don't always have to look super alike.

I'd be fine with them being foster brothers too, though.

I still wonder how much older Liam was. The casting call called for a guy around 35 according to the Once wikia. I still think there was about a 10 yr age gap between them. So Liam could have been working on the boat along with their father before he ditched them.

[Shanna Marie]

We often rage about Once and how we hate this or we hate that and ugh, these fucking writers!  I can't even say I relate to Emma or Hook on any level (though I did lost a sibling more than 20 years ago and I can understand that type of pain).  But Hook and Emma are a true testament to what the human spirit is.

Not long after I read that post, this article showed up in my Facebook feed, shared by someone, and it reminded me so much of Hook and Emma and the way he reacted to her when he met her, so I thought I'd share here.

[Dianthus]

HoodlumSheep, on 20 Aug 2015 - 07:33 AM, said:

I'm firmly in the biological-brother camp until proven wrong. I think they look enough alike to be siblings. The eyes, the nose, the general shape of the face. The similarity is there. Siblings don't always have to look super alike.

I'd be fine with them being foster brothers too, though.

I still wonder how much older Liam was. The casting call called for a guy around 35 according to the Once wikia. I still think there was about a 10 yr age gap between them. So Liam could have been working on the boat along with their father before he ditched them.

It's true they look alike, but it's been pointed out somewhere around here that they don't exactly sound alike (differing accents). We're just coming at this from different directions. I'd be ok with them being biologically related, but I'm a Buffy fan, and sometimes your family is by choice rather than chance.

[sharky]

To be fair, an accent shouldn't be proof that theyre not biological brothers. Liam could've had a different education or different opportunities than Killian because of their age difference. My husband and his sister have different accents because she stayed in Brooklyn and he left.

[legaleagle53]

And the lack of a strong physical resemblance doesn't necessarily mean the lack of a biological relationship, either.  I'm blond and have blue eyes.  My two living brothers and the one who is no longer alive all have/had dark hair and brown eyes.  What's more, I look nothing like any of them, so people would sometimes think I was adopted when we were growing up.  

 

Of course, looking so different has its advantages -- I'm actually the oldest, but my two living brothers both look older than I do!  ;)

Edited August 21, 2015 by legaleagle53

[YaddaYadda]

For me, it has nothing to do with the physical resemblance between the two actors, as much as me not buying it from the word go.  That being said, them not being biologically related means nothing because they were brothers in every way that matters.

[Souris]

Colin tweeted about being bullied. :( He’s mentioned being shy and morose and having no friends as a kid. And you can tell he was a skinny kid, which can be a target for bullies. I hate bullying SO MUCH. I’m so glad he was able to find his way through it. He just goes to prove to everyone being bullied that things can get better, much better, in your life, even if it feels like it won’t at the time.

 

As I saw somebody say on Twitter, no wonder he goes out of his way to make all the new cast members feel included and takes them to games and stuff. He wants the new people to be welcome.

 

I cry.

[legaleagle53]

And no wonder the cyberbullying he gets from certain quarters of fandom gets to him.  It would trigger some really bad memories for him.

[Souris]

Not to mention the cyberbullying that his friends Sean & Jennifer get! They get it worse than he does.

[Shanna Marie]

I never really had any issue with Liam not looking or sounding like Killian -- until we saw pictures of actor Liam with Colin and especially with Colin's dad, and they look so much more alike and more like brothers. My headcanon of Liam being an adopted brother was more of a way to reconcile all the various bits of Hook's persona and backstory so that it makes more sense -- the abandoned son of a fugitive father who's highly educated, is right at home at a royal ball, and who became a naval officer who had to be on a career fast-track and whose brother was captain of a prized ship who got missions directly from the king. It all fits so much better if Liam isn't also the abandoned son of a fugitive but rather from a more upper-crust background that Killian got adopted into.

 

I have an elaborate mental backstory for Hook that I know won't be what they go with but that's fun to play with in my head. In the part leading up to Liam, abandoned Killian gets away from the authorities who meet the ship when a kindly crewmember pretends he's his kid and carries him off the ship. The crewman tries to find someone to look after him, but without an official foster care system, the homes aren't necessarily good, so Killian keeps running away. At times, he fends for himself on the streets rather than go back. One time, he's standing his ground against a bunch of bigger kids, and while he's being brave about it, he doesn't stand a chance and has been cut up (how he got that scar). But then a much older, bigger kid comes along and scares off the other kids. He takes little Killian home and gets him patched up. And that's how he met Liam, the son of an admiral and about to go into the navy himself. The family ends up adopting Killian, and he wants to go into the navy like his new brother and father.

[Dianthus]

Shanna Marie, on 21 Aug 2015 - 8:11 PM, said:Shanna Marie, on 21 Aug 2015 - 8:11 PM, said:Shanna Marie, on 21 Aug 2015 - 8:11 PM, said:

I never really had any issue with Liam not looking or sounding like Killian -- until we saw pictures of actor Liam with Colin and especially with Colin's dad, and they look so much more alike and more like brothers. My headcanon of Liam being an adopted brother was more of a way to reconcile all the various bits of Hook's persona and backstory so that it makes more sense -- the abandoned son of a fugitive father who's highly educated, is right at home at a royal ball, and who became a naval officer who had to be on a career fast-track and whose brother was captain of a prized ship who got missions directly from the king. It all fits so much better if Liam isn't also the abandoned son of a fugitive but rather from a more upper-crust background that Killian got adopted into.

 

I have an elaborate mental backstory for Hook that I know won't be what they go with but that's fun to play with in my head. In the part leading up to Liam, abandoned Killian gets away from the authorities who meet the ship when a kindly crewmember pretends he's his kid and carries him off the ship. The crewman tries to find someone to look after him, but without an official foster care system, the homes aren't necessarily good, so Killian keeps running away. At times, he fends for himself on the streets rather than go back. One time, he's standing his ground against a bunch of bigger kids, and while he's being brave about it, he doesn't stand a chance and has been cut up (how he got that scar). But then a much older, bigger kid comes along and scares off the other kids. He takes little Killian home and gets him patched up. And that's how he met Liam, the son of an admiral and about to go into the navy himself. The family ends up adopting Killian, and he wants to go into the navy like his new brother and father.

This may not be exactly the way I see it, but it makes more sense with what we've been shown so far. In fact, I've just revised my back story leading up to Father leaving. If you'll bear with me:

Father's the younger son of a noble family. It's my understanding that the "spare" was usually encouraged to go into the military or church. He chooses the church. His first assignment (living) is a small, remote, coastal village. There he meets the local gentry, including a raven-haired beauty with sparkling blue eyes and (better still) a brain in that pretty head. They marry (no restrictions to it) and have little Killian. All goes well, 'til a bad man comes to town.

The bad man seems shady, but there's no proof. Turns out he's into human trafficking. Father finds out somehow and stands up to the bad man (seeing it as immoral, legality be damned). Unhappily, the bad man has "friends" in high places. Mom goes missing then goes dead. It's a message to Father, so he decides to take his boy and get the hell out of Dodge. He goes to a friend, a ship's captain he knows is a good man. He and Killian sail away, traveling under the name Jones.

The decision eats at him, tho'. He has too much honor to just abandon the field, but he can't put Killian in jeopardy. So he slips away, steals a dinghy, and makes his way home to meet his fate.

The captain reports the disappearance to the Harbormaster at their next port of call. This man is a big, bluff former Navy man. He enlisted as a common sailor, but was ennobled for some heroic deed. He's a good man, older, a trifle deaf from the roar of the cannons, single and childless.

He takes Killian into his home during the investigation, and Killian ends up staying as the likelihood of finding his father diminishes. The Harbormaster has a nephew, Liam, whose last name really is Jones. Liam is staying with him in anticipation of going into the Naval Academy. So Killian gets a relatively soft landing, and his reputation for being a survivor takes root.

So, bases covered: 

He's a survivor

He's always a gentleman

He's well-educated and well-spoken

He's a foundling who still manages to become an officer in the Royal Navy

 

Father isn't a total douchebag

 

Besides which, it may be cliché, but I love the idea that Captain Innuendo is the son of a preacher-man.

Edited August 22, 2015 by Dianthus

[Curio]

I don't care how they do the backstory, I just want it to be treated the same way Neverland, Oz, Frozen, and the Queens of Darkness were treated. If all of those random characters got to have half a season devoted to learning all about their pointless backstories in which we never see from them again after their obligatory 11 episodes, why can't we devote 11 episodes to Davy Jones and Killian's backstory?

[Souris]

Colin, Josh & Bobby at the soccer tonight.

[Shanna Marie]

Besides which, it may be cliché, but I love the idea that Captain Innuendo is the son of a preacher-man.

Well, he is the character who has made the most references that suggest some kind of religious belief: he's spoken of "providence" causing things to happen or bringing people together (particularly when Bae landed in the water right by his ship in Neverland), he spoke of being reunited with Milah in death, and he talked about needing time to prepare his soul for death. So, not too huge a stretch.

 

In my elaborate backstory, he's the youngest son of the king of Atlantis. Very soon after he was born, the island kingdom was facing a threat from an evil sorcerer they couldn't fight, and the court seer/wizard saw that the infant would be the one to save the kingdom when he brought the most powerful sorceress back with him. So they came up with a desperate plan to send the baby away to safety and then put the island under the same kind of spell Storybrooke was under during the curse -- frozen so that the sorcerer couldn't actually do anything and invisible to the outside world (and thus the legend of the island of Atlantis disappearing under the ocean). The court wizard put a protective spell on the baby before a guard took him away, and the evil sorcerer had only just enough time to send out a message to his minions to find and do away with the child before the time freeze/out of phase of the world spell hit. Little Killian grew up thinking the guard was his father, and the abandonment came when the guard was afraid the sorcerer's minions were closing in on them, and he thought he might lead them off the trail by going elsewhere. The "authorities" were the minions, using the "fugitive" thing as an excuse for searching for this man. So, it was actually a sacrifice rather than a real abandonment, and Hook and Emma have a lot in common in being sent away to be some kind of savior. Plus, that protective spell that keeps him from being killed until he's fulfilled his destiny would explain so much about how he always somehow gets saved in the nick of time. I vary on whether his name really is Killian. I've imagined some kind of scenario in which they have to say who they really are to get through a passage or otherwise do something, so David has to say something about being David the shepherd, Snow has to acknowledge that she's a queen, Emma isn't Emma Swan, but rather Princess Emma, etc. But "Killian Jones" doesn't work, and after that makes everyone (especially David) suspicious of him, he has to admit that it's the only name he's ever known, but it was given to him when the Jones family adopted him, that he didn't realize he didn't know his name until he was abandoned because his father just called him "lad" or "son" and referred to him as "the boy," and since they mostly kept to themselves he didn't even notice not having a name, but he figures it was part of keeping their identities secret.

 

I may have spent a wee bit too much time thinking about this (and I suspect I'm going to steal some of this backstory and use it myself for a different character). But this is the kind of thing I do when I'm washing dishes, going on walks, or driving.

[Souris]

Another pic of Colin and Josh (and Helen) at the game.

[YaddaYadda]

In my elaborate backstory, he's the youngest son of the king of Atlantis. Very soon after he was born, the island kingdom was facing a threat from an evil sorcerer they couldn't fight, and the court seer/wizard saw that the infant would be the one to save the kingdom when he brought the most powerful sorceress back with him. So they came up with a desperate plan to send the baby away to safety and then put the island under the same kind of spell Storybrooke was under during the curse -- frozen so that the sorcerer couldn't actually do anything and invisible to the outside world (and thus the legend of the island of Atlantis disappearing under the ocean)

 

Substitute Evil Wizard with the Dark One and seer/Wizard with Merlin and you've got yourself something.

[HoodlumSheep]

You guys are going to love my theory...

Papa Jones is just your average guy; works hard, wouldn't mind getting a promotion or two, a good guy in general.

Papa Jones and Rumple's dad, Malcolm, somehow knew each other (so before he becomes Peter Pan). maybe Papa Jones was on a mission and ends up meeting him. Maybe tries helping him out or something. And wait for it...

Malcolm is somehow responsible for ruining Papa Jones' life. He gets in trouble with the navy, etc. So then it's just a downward spiral from there and he eventually ditches his two wonderful boys (whether he had good or bad reasons to do so, I'm fine either way).

It would deepen the whole Killy vs. Rumple thing. :P

Edited August 23, 2015 by HoodlumSheep