S10.E15: The Things They Carried

[Pete Martell]

Dean had the drop on Cole in both of their fights. It was only because Dean gave over his gun to Cole that Cole even had the opportunity to kill him. Then Sam showed up and had a gun pointed at Cole's head. Cole stood down, but Sam could have killed him in a heart beat, so it seems to me that Sam and Dean both spared Cole's life along with Sam not retaliating at all for Cole's torture.  I mean shit if Cole had gone through with mashing Sam's knee with a hammer, Sam wouldn't be able to walk now.  I think Cole even used Sam's bad shoulder against him. Sam needed to give him a damn beatdown at least once. 

 

I agree (although if Sam had given him a beatdown we'd get even more of "is Sam going dark"...actually I'm surprised they didn't do that since they seem to be saying he may be going dark), but I think that Dean saw a lot of himself in Cole, and Cole making the choice he did (the choice Dean wanted to make years ago - to give up on revenge) probably cemented that.

[mertensia]

Lucifer said he runs cold. Maybe Dean does too now that he has the Mark.

Dear Jenny Klein: please leave that nasty gratuitous violence to The Following. Thank you.

Yay! New monster!! Enough with vampires for a while. Also werewolves.

Does that parasite worm go to Purgatory, too?

[Wynne88]

"Dean sitting and drinking in front of Cole was ridiculous. Yes, why don't you make the monster mad by deliberately drinking water in front of it. Because that will end well. And then after that, yes no need to tie him up."

Remember that the whole idea was to make the worm leave Cole's body. I just figured Dean was trying to make it think there was a juicier alternative available so it would jump ship faster. The not tying him up was dumb, though.

[supposebly]

 

I just figured Dean was trying to make it think there was a juicier alternative available so it would jump ship faster.

That makes sense. I just did not get that.

 

 

that since they seem to be saying he may be going dark

 

They are? Again? Isn't it time for Dean to be going dark? Actually dark not just hanging out with Crowley and sing karaoke? What did I miss?

 

Has Dean actually told Sam what Cain said to him? Shouldn't there be a discussion about maybe tying him up in a deep dark hole? I don't understand this acceptance thing. It's not like going to hell and being dead. That is something that happens only to him and traditionally, Dean has not had a problem with something like that.

He's going to go on a killing rampage and kill everything in his path. That's really different. It's not sacrificing himself for something, it's turning into something awful that destroys everything that he has worked for. Saving people....hunting things. It's going to be hunting people, hunting things.

Shouldn't that be a little more worrying? It's not the same as season 3 but the way Dean talks about it, they seem to be treating it that way, which makes no sense to me.

 

Not that I don't actually want to see that Dean.

[DittyDotDot]

Brace yourselves...I actually thought this was a step up from most the dreck they've done as of late. I'm not saying it didn't have it's share of stupid nor am I saying it wasn't fairly boring or that I even liked it, but that's kinda par for the course as of late, IMO. At least this episode felt more grounded and wasn't a long string of sit 'n chats--although it did have it's share of those too.  I don't know, I have no desire to see it again, but I also wasn't sighing through most of it. To be honest, I didn't have high hopes for the episode anyway...way to meet my expectations show. ::shrugs the mighty shrug of indifference.::

 

Even though the parallels were rather obvious, I felt like they were far better executed, IMO, than they've done in a great long while. Not sure why we needed the lying and subterfuge a la Sam--if you want to do research Sam, you don't have to lie about, just tell your brother he's not the boss of you, sheesh--but it is Supernatural after all. How would I know what show I'm watching without the forced conflict, right? 

 

I think my biggest irritation with the episode is instead of really using the horror well, they went for the gross/gory instead. Note to show, gory is not terrifying; it's just gross and kinda makes me point and laugh sometimes. Alright, there was a lot of other stupid, but you guys already covered that pretty well. Oh, and I'm rather disappointed Dean doesn't seem to be having any ill effects after taking out Cain. I expected his want to kill to ramp up, but it seems he's more in control of the Mark than ever. Sigh.

 

Okay, now time for the "What Episode Was He/She Previously In" portion of this post...I guess Gordon didn't really kill that kid back in Hunted. Instead the kid joined the army and got a worm up inside him. Wonder if his "abilities" went away after Yellow Eyes died? ;)

[Primetimer]

This is how the worm turns. Ew.

Read the story

[catrox14]

 

Shouldn't that be a little more worrying? It's not the same as season 3 but the way Dean talks about it, they seem to be treating it that way, which makes no sense to me.

 

Not that I don't actually want to see that Dean.

 

Back in the Hunger Games, Dean said 'We have to do whatever we have to do to stop this thing. Cut it off, burn it off.  Dean asked Cas to smite him or send him into the sun.  Dean knew it might be get really bad and Sam was the one who was all "We've been through all the lore and decided that Dean might need to be strong enough to fight it himself and possibly accept living with it. Even when Dean could have stayed 14 without the Mark, Sam was happy to have him back with it. And yet  Dean has said he'll accept it and try to live with it, now Sam is all being weird and secretive about looking for answers and Dean is doing what Sam wanted but now Sam seems to no longer agree.

 

I don't get it.

[dr pepper]

I disagree with the show-o-matic rating. I say: 25% Supernatural, 75% X-Files.

[rue721]

Back in the Hunger Games, Dean said 'We have to do whatever we have to do to stop this thing. Cut it off, burn it off.  Dean asked Cas to smite him or send him into the sun.  Dean knew it might be get really bad and Sam was the one who was all "We've been through all the lore and decided that Dean might need to be strong enough to fight it himself and possibly accept living with it. Even when Dean could have stayed 14 without the Mark, Sam was happy to have him back with it. And yet  Dean has said he'll accept it and try to live with it, now Sam is all being weird and secretive about looking for answers and Dean is doing what Sam wanted but now Sam seems to no longer agree.

 

I don't get it.

 

I don't understand, either, and while I would be fine with each/either of their opinions changing over time, I'm really not even understanding what their opinions are. Obviously, Dean becoming a demon and roaming the earth killing people and at the beck and call of the King of Hell isn't actually an acceptable option. And I thought the Mark had been *literally* killing/transforming him? He keeps saying he doesn't have much time left, as though then he'll just die or fade away or something in the near future, but the problem is that he doesn't have much time left until he TURNS EVIL. Is he just figuring that once he does "turn," someone will smite him? (Cas, I guess? That's why he gave the First Blade to Cas?).

 

Way earlier on, I was thinking that Dean's SL this season is sort of like when one of a group of "survivors" in a zombie apocalypse gets bitten, and they all have to decide when to put their bitten comrade out of his misery so that he doesn't turn zombie himself. And that still seems like the basic SL to me. Which is fine, as a theoretical idea for a storyline, except that Dean's Mark makes him functionally immortal. 

 

Brace yourselves...I actually thought this was a step up from most the dreck they've done as of late. I'm not saying it didn't have it's share of stupid nor am I saying it wasn't fairly boring or that I even liked it, but that's kinda par for the course as of late, IMO. At least this episode felt more grounded and wasn't a long string of sit 'n chats--although it did have it's share of those too.  I don't know, I have no desire to see it again, but I also wasn't sighing through most of it. To be honest, I didn't have high hopes for the episode anyway...way to meet my expectations show. ::shrugs the mighty shrug of indifference.::

 

The script wasn't a logistically incomprehensible shitshow (a la the "Claire's ax-murderer acquaintances" storyline in the Hunter Games), but nothing made sense emotionally or had any actual emotional resonance -- there was no substance to the episode at all. I don't even mean that the episode needed to be ~deeper~ or more angsty, I mean that there wasn't even a genuinely funny, comprehensible joke in it -- nothing in the episode even connected enough emotionally to be funny, let alone to have more resonance than that. There were storylines or setups that *looked* at first glance like they were supposed to have some resonance (were supposed to be scary or funny or meaningful somehow) -- like Dean wanting to have some cake, or like Cole needing to be electrocuted -- but they didn't actually make sense and didn't actually have stakes the audience could/would care about. Those storylines and setups were like a television writing version of "no soap radio."

 

• What was "at stake" was Cole's life and the life of his friend. (Nope, don't give a shit and don't see why I would or could -- especially when nobody seemed to give a shit about the life of the woman brutally murdered in the teaser. Didn't even find out more about her family or friends, etc -- she was a complete nonentity within the episode).
• The conflict between the brothers was that Sam wanted to research the Mark of Cain and Dean thought that was a buzzkill. (Incomprehensible).
• The emotional through-line was the brothers becoming friends with Cole. (*Maddeningly* incomprehensible).

[rue721]

Thinking about it now, imo the best scene in the episode was when Kit went into that convenience store and attacked one of the guys working there. There was actual dramatic tension, and it rose throughout the scene, and I cared about the stakes (the lives of those two employees). Both the employees kept looking at each other and you could see them trying to figure out what to do, etc. I was really afraid for them, understood their perspectives and why they were unsure what to do, and hated seeing the one kid get his throat slashed open. But then the episode tried to make me feel worried *for* Kit after that, and like it was a tragedy that Sam couldn't save him. As though we were supposed to have been on his side or to have felt more invested in his point-of-view than in the employees', in that convenience store scene in which he's really threatening and then murders somebody.

 

That's what I mean about the episode making at least minimal logistic sense, but not making any emotional sense. It's like the writers had no understanding of perspective -- the characters' *or* the audience's.

[SueB]

My Rewatch Opinions (because it always makes more sense for me the second time around):

 

Big Picture:

- While I get that the episode didn't resonate with many, I personally found it did a decent job of setting up the back-half of the season. Specifically, while the boys were together trying to get rid of the Mark, Dean has come to accept that there is nothing that is going to get him out of this.  And Sam is coming to the same conclusion, and is starting to panic.  I thought the MOTW being good heroes turned into monsters that had to be put down was a fitting parallel. Which is what these MOTW are generally designed to do.

 

Specifics:

 

Dean - I think Dean has not "given up". I think the analogy of a terminally ill person is what he's got in his head.  He figures he's going to go beserk eventually.  I think in Dean's mind, Cas can kill him by smiting.  Of course Cas is losing mojo rapidly, but Metatron killed Dean essentially by stabbing him to death.  He didn't smite him.  I think Dean is HOPING that since most Angels can take out demons, Cas (or someone Cas can bring), will take Dean out if Dean goes off the deep end.  He doesn't have much of a plan beyond that.  But then again, they were able to trap Cain, so perhaps Dean figures that if Sam & Cas (and maybe Crowley) team up, they can trap him if he goes off on a rampage.  Cain had centuries "in control", Dean is hoping to have some time and treating this as a remission condition.  In the meantime, he'll save as many as he can.

 

Sam - Is unwilling to consign Dean to this fate so he's looking for the solution that gets Dean back to being regular Dean without the Mark.  Re-looking at the same research is not really going to work.  And now he's had a face-full of reality as he had to kill Kit.  Sam can be just as "in denial" as Dean can sometimes.  This episode made it really hard to accept that. Most importantly, I think this is an obvious turning point for Sam going down a reckless path ala S3. 

 

The Hero Dies Analogy - obvious but effective IMO.

 

Continuity with The Executioner's Song - Although Dean appeared to keep Cain's prophecy to himself, I'm taking his calm demeanor this time as a sign that he took no bloodlust pleasure in killing Cain.  Or if he did, he was able to keep it under control.  Unlike the other kills, it would appear it was a single stab wound to the base of the neck (Execution Style).  If was done out of necessity, not out of desire.  Now Tessa's death was kinda similar in that he didn't want to kill her.  OTOH, Dean has since had a lot more time living with the bloodlust.  I think the "high" it gave him with Tessa was based on his inexperience.  At the end of the day, I'm okay with Cain's execution resulting in cosmic thunder and just emotionally/physically sapping Dean versus Dean losing his mind.  I think it's a testament to the work Sam and Dean did in the first half of the season that Dean came out of that conflict able to eventually move on.  

 

Specifics for this Week's Story:

 

Cole - Yeah, the ad-lib "Deano" and 'Sammy' annoyed. But otherwise I think he served a good purpose of reminding these guys that the "monsters" are sometimes victims.  Cole was put to appropriate use IMO because he already knew how deadly these guys were and had the appropriate military background for getting engaged in the activity.  Plus Cole, as the obvious Dean-mirror, gave Dean a chance to save someone from giving into the inner monster.  That's a plus for Dean who clearly sees that continuing to hold his own inner monster at bay, to keep fighting the effects of the Mark, is what he's going to have to do.  So for Dean, despite losing Kit -- this episode is a "win".  I also thought TAW did a good job in that cabin.  He looked really strung out and "real" in his desperation. 

 

Khan Worm 'Beta' class? - I kinda liked that they went this route.  Eve's went in through the ear JUST like a Khan worm, but this looks like something that could have been buried in Ancient Persia for centuries.  Disturbed by the new prison.  But I could see Eve whipping up a more modern version while she was around.  She needed to control the people, this variant of Khan worm just was a parasite.  But I did notice the green/black goo that came out with Cole's worm.  Which means the electrocution had some effect.  Nice bit of goo-continuity SPN!

 

Overall plot & pacing: worked for me.  It didn't matter if I knew Sam & Dean would live, the question was if Kit or Cole would survive and who would take them out if they didn't. It felt appropriate freaky at the right times and tense at the end.  

 

PTSD and the affects on the Military Family - I thought this was well handled.  Just the grim reminder that soldiers have to continue to face a battle when they get home.  And their families have their own battle to face as well.  The biggest barrier IS the military culture.  Going to see the doc about a mental condition, one presumes when you are active duty, is the same thing as losing your job.  This not necessarily the case, but there's a culture of fear that makes people who have PTSD often unwilling to address it if they can "get by".  Most of us just avoid the doc unless we are ordered to go or it's obviously little and curable (like strep throat).  It doesn't have to make sense, this is just what I've observed.

 

VA versus the Military Medical System - I get why Jenny Klein wanted to comment on the awful waiting times of the VA. But in this case, these were active duty personnel, not retirees.  The Veteran's Administration and the Department of Defense are not the same organization. Like, not at all.  They had "just come back from deployment", were living in what appeared to be base housing (although it was really NICE base housing from my perspective), and the monster timeline did not support there being enough time for these guys to have been discharged from the military.  This means they would have been seen by active duty doctors.  And there would have been no waiting to be seen with the bleeding face and the odd thirst.  It does a disservice to the military medical personnel, who are usually very good, to imply that Kit would have been turned away.  As a military retiree myself, I know I was always well cared for while active duty and now that I'm retired, I still have military medical insurance.  The VA is for those honorably discharged or retired who have no financial means for their care. My yearly medical insurance (as a retired military) is less than what most people pay for a month.  If I couldn't cover that, I COULD go to the VA -- but I don't.  BUT, I do totally agree that if you are discharged and the VA is your only option, it's not in good shape and so Jenny's commentary was not wrong, just not accurate for the plot.  

 

Other military mistakes: Beards, emailing classified data!, a complete lack of a manhunt by the MP's.  Yeah... many liberties taken here.  I just shrug my shoulders because that's kinda Hollywood "par".  

 

Other delightful details: There were St Patrick's Day stickers on the gas pumps.  They must have know it would be airing about now or added it in post-production.  The "every other Tuesday" was perfect except they moved to Wednesday.  Still, Dean saying it was a Monday implied this was a routine hunt.  I liked that.  I also liked that the THEN focused on the unknown nature of what they are dealing with and how they have to fly by the seat of their pants a lot. Sammy's roadside cafe! 

 

Other face palm moments: Fridged the girl in the teaser. Killed a person of color next. Dean not tying up Cole after he went for the water. Jensen keeping his damn second layer on in a sweat lodge.

 

Bottom Line: Per usual, I liked it better on rewatch.  I thought this was a solid MOTW with good parallels and an interesting plot. 

 

(ETA: Sorry for the length...felt kinda strong about the military health care system getting a bad rep)

Edited March 19, 2015 by SueB

[AwesomO4000]

I think Dean is HOPING that since most Angels can take out demons, Cas (or someone Cas can bring), will take Dean out if Dean goes off the deep end.  He doesn't have much of a plan beyond that.

 

Taken to the speculation thread, because most of it turned into speculation, but the main idea is that I'm afraid Dean is being somewhat optomistic on how easy it's going to be - in many ways - to smite him or in any way stop him if he gets going again.

[Demented Daisy]

 

(ETA: Sorry for the length...felt kinda strong about the military health care system getting a bad rep)

 

Hear, hear!  People complain all the time, but we've never had a problem.  (18+ years here.)  

 

If they lived in base housing, it must have been on the Pope side.  Bragg's housing isn't nearly as nice as that.  The Air Force knows how to take care of their people.  Not that, you know, we're biased or anything.  ;-)

 

Which reminds me -- that was supposed to be Fayetteville, NC?  HA!  That's almost as funny to me as when they used Richardson, TX.

[DittyDotDot]

This means they would have been seen by active duty doctors.  And there would have been no waiting to be seen with the bleeding face and the odd thirst.  It does a disservice to the military medical personnel, who are usually very good, to imply that Kit would have been turned away.

 

Yeah, I was really shaking my head at this. There's no way a guy who just came back from active duty in the Middle East walks into a hospital (military or not) bleeding from his face and completely dehydrated skin like that and they just put him on a list. Heath care in this country can be pretty screwy, but that one was a bit much for me to believe.

 

I'm kind of disappointed they didn't delve into the PTSD angle of it more, as it was, it felt very surface to me. It's really too bad, I think there was a lot of good story to use here. It left me thinking of that episode last season where Tessa is a suicide angel bomber.

[catrox14]

 

Yeah, the ad-lib "Deano" and 'Sammy' annoyed. But otherwise I think he served a good purpose of reminding these guys that the "monsters" are sometimes victims.

 

The problem with this for me, is that these guys get a reminder practically EVERY DAMN episode since Carver took over. Seriously. It's almost easier to remember the ones that didn't do that. And seriously, since they keep going back to that ALLL the time, this must mean that Sam and Dean are the dumbest guys on the planet to keep needing these reminders.

[catrox14]

 

PTSD and the affects on the Military Family - I thought this was well handled.  Just the grim reminder that soldiers have to continue to face a battle when they get home.  And their families have their own battle to face as well.  The biggest barrier IS the military culture.  Going to see the doc about a mental condition, one presumes when you are active duty, is the same thing as losing your job.  This not necessarily the case, but there's a culture of fear that makes people who have PTSD often unwilling to address it if they can "get by".  Most of us just avoid the doc unless we are ordered to go or it's obviously little and curable (like strep throat).  It doesn't have to make sense, this is just what I've observed.

 

 

It's weird, upon rewatch this felt like an attempt to give Cole an episode about him and it's very close to being a psuedo back door pilot. Sam and Dean were in it but this was really about Cole. Whilst it's good they tried to address this serious issue of PTSD,  I'm also rather annoyed that they have largely ignored the PTSD that Dean and Sam have also gone through. They tried to do it with Dean post Purgatory but it was too little.

 

I just do not care about Cole. I don't care about this smarmy dickbag that tortured Sam and tried to kill Dean. I don't really care about the people he knows. I just don't.  And again we have a HUGE thing with Dean and the MoC and I just have a hard time with this back and forth with Sam and Dean and lying and obfuscating for literally no reason.  And then make it a parallel to what Dean is experiencing and it's just a total false equivalency IMO.  I just can't buy why Dean and Sam even give a shit abut Cole.  At all.   Like I understood Dean and Gordon.  They were both hunters.  This thing with Cole?? Nope. Doesn't work for me at all.

Edited March 19, 2015 by catrox14

[catrox14]

And another thing!

 

I was thinking about why Sam would be continuing to research when he said they have exhausted everything. And he told Dean to stop going over it again and again and get back to hunting in the Charlie epiosde.  And yet here Sam seems reluctant to hunt in favor of research.  So my fanwank is that Sam is hoping to find something that refutes the outcome that Cain kills Abel, not that he thinks Dean will lose the MoC but that he won't try to kill Sam. That's the only reason I can find for his weirdness here .

Edited March 19, 2015 by catrox14

[SueB]

It's weird, upon rewatch this felt like an attempt to give Cole an episode about him and it's very close to being a psuedo back door pilot. Sam and Dean were in it but this was really about Cole. Whilst it's good they tried to address this serious issue of PTSD,  I'm also rather annoyed that they have largely ignored the PTSD that Dean and Sam have also gone through. They tried to do it with Dean post Purgatory but it was too little.

 

I just do not care about Cole. I don't care about this smarmy dickbag that tortured Sam and tried to kill Dean. I don't really care about the people he knows. I just don't.  And again we have a HUGE thing with Dean and the MoC and I just have a hard time with this back and forth with Sam and Dean and lying and obfuscating for literally no reason.  And then make it a parallel to what Dean is experiencing and it's just a total false equivalency IMO.  I just can't buy why Dean and Sam even give a shit abut Cole.  At all.   Like I understood Dean and Gordon.  They were both hunters.  This thing with Cole?? Nope. Doesn't work for me at all.

 

I sure hope it's not a backdoor pilot. I wouldn't watch a Cole-based show.  

ITA, Sam and Dean's PTSD is Superman-class PTSD, actually probably worse. We have to add childhood trauma too, Supes had Ma and Pa Kent.

 

As for why Sam and Dean don't slap Cole around... I kinda figure they cut him slack because they saw their own story in him.  So, for example, if they had been chasing YED and it turned out that Mary was actually a baby-eating monster and YED was actually IDK....say an Angel who was actually protecting them.  Well that would have put their entire childhood in a different perspective. And that's kinda Cole's situation.  Here he thought he was chasing a monster (Dean), who was really the good guy.  Sam and Dean lived with John's quest for 20+ years.  Now in the end, YED was bad news, but John went to some extremes to find YED.  Sam and Dean didn't torture people (well except Meg.... sort of), but I can see them thinking that Cole was driven like John was driven.  So... since they stopped Cole from further ruining his life, they just called it a win and were glad they didn't feel guilty for another person permanently lost.  

[cassandle]

So... since they stopped Cole from further ruining his life, they just called it a win and were glad they didn't feel guilty for another person permanently lost.  

 

Hang on, they're capable of not feeling guilty for something?  ;)

[SueB]

Hang on, they're capable of not feeling guilty for something?  ;)

I know.  Alert the media. 

[catrox14]

 

o... since they stopped Cole from further ruining his life, they just called it a win and were glad they didn't feel guilty for another person permanently lost.

 

See, I thought that was already completely resolved in Girlz Girlz Girlz.  Cole knew Dean wasn't a bad guy or he would have killed Dean straight up. It seemed like overkill for Cole to be infected for him to believe that his Dad was no longer his Dad.  It was just eh...I dunno a far lesser John hunting YED parallel thing.  Meh.

 

As far as the spinoff, I've read and heard that Cole is popping up as being one of the most popular new characters...say whut? and would be the one people would want to see be in a spinoff.

[DittyDotDot]

I've speculated Cole was created as a possible spin off character, but I wasn't aware he was all that popular. Just goes to prove there are all kinds, right?

 

I wish I could get into Cole, but I'm just rather indifferent to him.

[rue721]

There's no way a guy who just came back from active duty in the Middle East walks into a hospital (military or not) bleeding from his face and completely dehydrated skin like that and they just put him on a list. Heath care in this country can be pretty screwy, but that one was a bit much for me to believe.

 

There's no way *anyone* who is so dehydrated that his skin is one huge open, bloody sore walks into an emergency room and doesn't get to see a doctor before he walks out again. I mean, that is really visibly horrifying. The hospital would at least give him an IV, ffs!

 

One time, I ended up in the emergency room with really intense pain (turned out I had a kidney infection and was also passing a kidney stone (sorry for the TMI)), and they got me a bed, but then basically forgot about me for a few hours. I was throwing up from the pain, so to get some medical attention (and to finally get some pain medication!), I got out of my bed, walked over so that I was in clear view of the nurses' station, and vomited all over the place directly in the nurses' line of sight -- and then got help really pretty fast! My point is, you do what you got to do! Those wives were really irritating me with their, "Idk, maybe it's PTSD? Maybe I'll see what the VA thinks?" dithering, as their husbands were literally bleeding from their faces and spending "half the day" drinking from a hose or the bathtub. That doesn't sound like PTSD particularly, but that does sound like a fucking medical emergency!

 

It's weird, upon rewatch this felt like an attempt to give Cole an episode about him and it's very close to being a psuedo back door pilot. Sam and Dean were in it but this was really about Cole. Whilst it's good they tried to address this serious issue of PTSD,  I'm also rather annoyed that they have largely ignored the PTSD that Dean and Sam have also gone through. They tried to do it with Dean post Purgatory but it was too little.

 

[...] I just can't buy why Dean and Sam even give a shit abut Cole.  At all.   Like I understood Dean and Gordon.  They were both hunters.  This thing with Cole?? Nope. Doesn't work for me at all.

 

Imo they didn't really address PTSD, they just name-checked it. I would have *liked* if they'd actually addressed it. For example, if there had been even the tiniest smidgen of a worry that what was going on with Cole's "buddies" was PTSD, and not that they had worms. That could have made a great story! But that didn't happen.

 

Anyway, I agree completely about Cole.

 

Gordon was an entirely different scenario imo. And to be completely frank, I just liked and respected his character so much more.

 

I was thinking about why Sam would be continuing to research when he said they have exhausted everything. And he told Dean to stop going over it again and again and get back to hunting in the Charlie epiosde.  And yet here Sam seems reluctant to hunt in favor of research.  So my fanwank is that Sam is hoping to find something that refutes the outcome that Cain kills Abel, not that he thinks Dean will lose the MoC but that he won't try to kill Sam. That's the only reason I can find for his weirdness here .

 

It makes perfect sense imo that Sam wouldn't have lost hope yet and would still be looking for ways to fix this. Sam usually is the last to lose hope, he didn't lose faith in Dean even when Dean was saying he couldn't take it anymore and was asking them to cut off his arm to give him relief, and he's like a dog with a bone when it comes to a mission he cares about anyway.

 

What I find contrived is that Dean is making that so awkward. I get that he wants to "enjoy" his time left, but has he met Sam? Does he know his brother at all? Sam isn't just going to be like *shrug,* "Guess it's been a good run, buddy!" And previously, like in the S9 finale, Dean *liked* that and knew that Sam was refusing to let go because Sam loves him.

 

So what's the "conflict" about that now? Especially since Dean's plan to just wait until something else goes wrong isn't really reasonable anyway.

 

As far as the spinoff, I've read and heard that Cole is popping up as being one of the most popular new characters...say whut? and would be the one people would want to see be in a spinoff.

 

Where are you hearing that?! (mind:  blown).

[catrox14]

Dean knows Sam is still doing research and Sam being secretive about it didn't make sense. Dean was very open with Sam and said look, I just want to enjoy as much of a normal life again as I can. I'd like you to be with me while I do that."  I don't think anything Dean said was giving Sam an ultimatum or telling him to stop. To me, Sam and Dean hunting is not mutually exclusive of Sam researching anyway. If Sam wants to do it and it's not interfering with their jobs as hunters then go for it and if Dean doesn't like it, oh well. But Sam shouldn't be keeping it a state secret.

 

Of course, I fully expect that we'll learn that Cas has been looking for answers all along at Dean's behest  Sigh.  you know that's going to happen

 

Re Cole in the spin off. I'm hearing it in a few podcasts I listen to, I've seen it mentioned in some articles here and there.   I think a couple of sites even had polls and Cole jumped ahead in the rankings for a spinoff character.

[cassandle]

As far as the spinoff, I've read and heard that Cole is popping up as being one of the most popular new characters...say whut? and would be the one people would want to see be in a spinoff.

 

I'm going to guess these are the same people who loved Katrina Crane on Sleepy Hollow--otherwise it makes no sense to me.  The only time I've enjoyed Cole is when Demon Dean beat the crap out of him.  So, for a punching bag he was great, but any other time he was on screen?  Zzzzzzz.  I can barely muster up enough energy to be annoyed by him.  I put him in the same category as I do Claire: whiny, boring, and hopefully gone for good. 

[Pete Martell]

I can't imagine the show having a spinoff at this point - last season was probably it. I guess the show could still be prepping just in case, but I tend to think he's there more as a mirror than a spinoff character. 

[catrox14]

They haven't dropped the idea of a spinoff.  The network still wants one.  I think they are just reworking it.

 

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/supernatural-spinoff-cw-704360

Edited March 20, 2015 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

I can't imagine the show having a spinoff at this point - last season was probably it. I guess the show could still be prepping just in case, but I tend to think he's there more as a mirror than a spinoff character. 

 

I think he can serve more than one purpose. This is kind of how they introduced The Flash on Arrow, too. I don't think it's out of the range of possibilities they had possible spinoff in mind when they started down the Cole road.

 

What I find contrived is that Dean is making that so awkward. I get that he wants to "enjoy" his time left, but has he met Sam? Does he know his brother at all? Sam isn't just going to be like *shrug,* "Guess it's been a good run, buddy!" And previously, like in the S9 finale, Dean *liked* that and knew that Sam was refusing to let go because Sam loves him.

 

I think they both are making it so awkward. Sam should just be honest with Dean and Dean should just not worry about what Sam is doing on the side. It's so ridiculous they are making this a thing again now. Back in S3 this made sense but now? They've been through so much and done so much, it just doesn't make sense now, IMO.

 

Plus, the reality is, knowledge is power. Even if Sam's research doesn't find a solution, knowing stuff can't hurt, IMO.

 

Imo they didn't really address PTSD, they just name-checked it. I would have *liked* if they'd actually addressed it. For example, if there had been even the tiniest smidgen of a worry that what was going on with Cole's "buddies" was PTSD, and not that they had worms. That could have made a great story! But that didn't happen.

 

That's how I felt about the PTSD too. And, I thought it was such a shame the parallels weren't about the PTSD. Dean just took out Cain and should be ramping up his kill right now, having a hard time adjusting and such.  There were far more organic parallels than what they did, IMO.

Edited March 20, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

I just liked the matter-of-fact way that Sheriff implied a high suicide rate for soldier is par.  I didn't think it needed detailed exploration.  I also thought Cole's frank admiration of Dean after acting like they had lost all heart was great.  Cole has been in the unique position of being a "survivor" after losing his father and also "the MOTW".  And he looks at what Dean does and now not only can he live with it, I think he sees Dean as a hero vice the villain he pictured for years.  When he made a comment about being in over your head, I think he showed real humility there.  He was pushing his viewpoint for a while and his experience really changed him.

[catrox14]

I just liked the matter-of-fact way that Sheriff implied a high suicide rate for soldier is par.  I didn't think it needed detailed exploration.  I also thought Cole's frank admiration of Dean after acting like they had lost all heart was great.  Cole has been in the unique position of being a "survivor" after losing his father and also "the MOTW".  And he looks at what Dean does and now not only can he live with it, I think he sees Dean as a hero vice the villain he pictured for years.  When he made a comment about being in over your head, I think he showed real humility there.  He was pushing his viewpoint for a while and his experience really changed him.

 

I would argue that Cole isn't really that unique since Sam and Dean are both survivors.   With Sam they spent time examining what that being Lucifer's vessel did to him, the Hallucifnations etc. Essentially Sam was a monster at that point.

 

Dean is a survivor of having been an actual demon. Not a vessel. Personally I would rather they spend the time actually delving into what that means for Dean rather than the constant mirroring crap, by you know talking about it. But they seem like they don't even want to ever mention that Dean was a demon anymore. It's just weird to me to waste the talents of Jensen by not addressing that time of his "life". 

 

I would also have rather had Cole become the same monster as his father.  That would have been far more interesting to me. MV as always

[Pete Martell]

They haven't dropped the idea of a spinoff.  The network still wants one.  I think they are just reworking it.

 

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/supernatural-spinoff-cw-704360

 

I know they talked to the press about it this fall, but between the increasing popularity of superhero shows on the network and SPN's ratings decline, I'd be surprised if they were still considering it.

I think he can serve more than one purpose. This is kind of how they introduced The Flash on Arrow, too. I don't think it's out of the range of possibilities they had possible spinoff in mind when they started down the Cole road.

 

Unless there had been huge negative fan reaction, everything about Barry Allen was a backdoor pilot ready to go (similar to Ray Palmer this season). Cole has never entirely given me that vibe. I guess it could be a possibility, but I tend to see him as mostly just popping up occasionally to be a mirror for Dean until he is inevitably killed.

[catrox14]

I know they talked to the press about it this fall, but between the increasing popularity of superhero shows on the network and SPN's ratings decline, I'd be surprised if they were still considering it.

Unless there had been huge negative fan reaction, everything about Barry Allen was a backdoor pilot ready to go (similar to Ray Palmer this season). Cole has never entirely given me that vibe. I guess it could be a possibility, but I tend to see him as mostly just popping up occasionally to be a mirror for Dean until he is inevitably killed.

Pedowitz, kripke, Carver, J2 et al, were asked about it as recently as the run up to the 200th and they all said they are still working on a spinoff as long as was worthy of the mothership. I'll see if I can find the interviews and post them in the spinoff thread.

Moving my reply about Cole to the spinoff off thread.

Edited March 20, 2015 by catrox14

[Pete Martell]

I've read the article - I just think things have probably changed since then.

 

It's tough for me to say with Cole. The actor said he ad-libbed the nicknames and they let it go. I think if they were going for a spinoff it wouldn't be a guy with a wife and kids, as this means if he doesn't have them elsewhere they'd have to go the dead family/manpain angle and all the rest. 

 

Who knows.

[catrox14]

I've read the article - I just think things have probably changed since then.

It's tough for me to say with Cole. The actor said he ad-libbed the nicknames and they let it go. I think if they were going for a spinoff it wouldn't be a guy with a wife and kids, as this means if he doesn't have them elsewhere they'd have to go the dead family/manpain angle and all the rest.

Who knows.

Repkying in the spinoff thread.

[catrox14]

So thinking about this episode more.  I was really irritated when Dean sort of gave Cole half assed CPR by pounding on his chest when Cole went unconscious. All I could think of was "Um, show, so of all the times Sam, Dean and Cas have died or been unconscious, and all the other victims, why is Cole the only one worthy of that extra effort?".  That actually really pissed me off. LOL.

[SueB]

Lynn at Fangasm did her review and put a note she got from Travis Aaron Wade about Cole's use of nicknames and his relationship with Sam and Dean:

https://fangasmthebook.wordpress.com/2015/03/22/the-weight-sam-and-dean-and-the-things-they-carried/#comment-24523

 

He's seen the on-line backlash and his rationale makes a ton of sense IMO.  And even tho I cringe when I hear the nicknames, it now fits better for me.

[catrox14]

Heh, I read that review today, and I just thought...man I'm so not on board with Cole thinking he's all bonded with these guys.

 

To me Dean and Sam are looking at Cole as this annoying cousin Oliver that they won't kill but IMO they sure don't want around. And I don't think Dean thinks they have as much connection as Cole thinks they have.  MMV widely on this episode.

[supposebly]

First of all, this show is not real life, so this doesn't work for me. Within the show, we are not told all these things and thus, they are not really part of their reality.

 

Also, these aren't just nicknames, calling Sam Sammy has a history that is intimate and about their little family in this show. Also, it doesn't ring true that Sam and Dean wouldn't react to it.

 

And, as always, if you have to explain your choices, either as an actor, a writer, or a director, it's a very large sign that screams: it didn't work.

 

The director should have stopped it.

 

I didn't really need to see Cole realize what he stumbled into for a whole episode. Again. Getting his ass handed to him by Demon Dean and the last meeting when he saw Dean human again should have done the trick. It did for me. This episode was mostly unnecessary.

 

Never mind addressing something like PTSD in a show like Supernatural. Not that they really did. I'm sorry, but our writers and this show just don't have the chops to tackle such a real-life topic. And they kind of already did it in season 8 with Dean back from Purgatory. Which was probably one of the better executed themes in that godawful season and made a lot more sense within this show.

[catrox14]

It feels to me like TAW is trying to find reason to Cole's attachment to Sam and Dean. M And I get that Wade is super enthusiastic about SPN but it just rubs me all the wrong way.

 

Now if Jensen says something like that's the bond well I'll still call bullshit because that is the bond between Cas and Dean and Benny and Dean after a year fighting 32 flavors of bottom dwelling nasties, not 3 fights in which Dean kicked his ass and sent him packing.  Bleh. It feels like a lot of pimping of Cole for spinoff reasons.

[rue721]

So thinking about this episode more.  I was really irritated when Dean sort of gave Cole half assed CPR by pounding on his chest when Cole went unconscious. All I could think of was "Um, show, so of all the times Sam, Dean and Cas have died or been unconscious, and all the other victims, why is Cole the only one worthy of that extra effort?".  That actually really pissed me off. LOL.

 

It made me laugh, because Dean seriously doesn't know CPR? Life-and-death emergencies are apparently just part of a regular Tuesday (errrr Monday) to him. Yet he can't invest in an afternoon Red Cross class? Now I want him to be walking around somewhere when someone has a seizure or heart attack and collapses, no monsters or anything to worry about, just run of the mill bad luck, and for him to be completely helpless. So dumb.

 

It feels to me like TAW is trying to find reason to Cole's attachment to Sam and Dean. M And I get that Wade is super enthusiastic about SPN but it just rubs me all the wrong way.

 

It all rubs me the wrong way, too.

 

It's a wonder to me that nobody decided to give TAW a head's up that the otherwise generic nickname "Sammy" has this whole big backstory on the show. Though it's also a wonder to me that TAW felt comfortable just improvising stuff and deviating from the script. That's a lot of gall for someone who's only been on a show a few times and hasn't even seen many/any episodes.

 

So his explanation for the nicknames is that they made Cole feel like hot shit (when it comes to Dean) and to endear himself (to Sam)? I think that's basically why TAW used the nicknames, too. He felt like hot shit and wanted to endear himself to the audience/etc. Can't speak for anyone else, but it completely backfired for me.

 

Whenever Cole showed up with that smarmy expression and using nicknames, etc, all I could think was, "who the fuck do you think you are?" If that's who TAW has decided Cole is, then great for TAW and Cole, I guess, but I sure as hell hope he doesn't show up on my screen again.

 

Have you guys watched Rectify? There's a good ole boy, sympathetic-but-unlikeable character on there, Teddy, who I think is essentially the same "type" as Cole was supposed to be. But both the writing and the acting for Teddy were more complex than they were for Cole, and imo the show was actually really successful with that character! Also, the ridiculous thing about my immense distaste for Cole is that those are usually the characters I like *best.*

 

Never mind addressing something like PTSD in a show like Supernatural. Not that they really did. I'm sorry, but our writers and this show just don't have the chops to tackle such a real-life topic. And they kind of already did it in season 8 with Dean back from Purgatory. Which was probably one of the better executed themes in that godawful season and made a lot more sense within this show.

 

I agree that the nascent "Dean has PTSD" storyline was the one gleaming silver dollar stuck in an enormous steaming turd that was the S8 premiere. The thing is that I think this show is FAIRLY good at dealing with complex stuff as long as it does it really peripherally. (Maybe because the writing is the weak spot on the show, so when the storytelling is happening in the margins, it tends to be better?) But watching this episode and having a bunch of characters name-check PTSD just frustrated me and put me off, because how they were talking about (and, I guess, portraying?) PTSD seemed so clueless. Same thing with TAW talking about torture in his response to his article/writer:

 

Believe me when I say that if Cole wanted to truly hurt Sam he would have and he also would have tortured him to the point where Sam or any human being for that matter would have broken down and given the information.  Well, everyone except Jack Bauer.  Cole chose the most humane way to get to Dean through Sam and that is just fantastic writing by the creators of the show.

 

I mean seriously? That is a bunch of macho bullcrap. Apparently, the bar for "good person" is "didn't literally torture someone to death," and apparently, torture is a practical way of getting information. Come on.

 

Honestly, if Cole's character boils down to a GI Joe caricature, then no wonder he's not likeable or sympathetic. If that's the persona TAW likes to use in his real life, fine. But there needs to be a bit more depth and internal conflict/potential for growth in a fictional character, or else he's not going to be compelling, sorry.

[supposebly]

This is hilarious. Jack Bauer has nothing on the Winchesters who have been to actual Hell.

 

Macho bullcrap sounds about right to me.

 

I really shouldn't read this behind the scenes stuff. It never makes me feel any better about the show.

Edited March 23, 2015 by supposebly

[AwesomO4000]

Have you guys watched Rectify?

 

I've seen a few episodes, but I really need to buy the whole series (We don't get the cable channel it's on.) I've heard that it's good, but the main reason I need to get it is because the entire series is filmed in the small town I live in. I think they are filming now as I see the signs directing the film crew, etc. to the locations. The episode where the main character gets beat up in a cemetery? I used to walk through that cemetery all the time to go to the library before I got my current job (and had more free time to do such things).

 

They sometimes filmed parts of The Walking Dead here as well, but not as often - and of course then it's a bit crazy since we get people hanging around on the sidewalks in droves trying to catch a glimpse.

 

Sorry for the brief off topic. Back on topic...

 

As for the episode - I agree with you here. It's too presumptuous of Cole to be using the nicknames. Intimidation or not, Sam and Dean either shouldn't be buying it or they should be annoyed. In either case, they should be side-eying Cole for it. Not everyone answers to just about anything * ... and especially Sam who's shown in the past that he prefers to be addressed in a certain way and generally does the same for others he doesn't know well - unless he's in a situation where he's trying to appear unruffled and/or he just doesn't care (Like when he called the lawyer "Matlock").

 

And also seriously, if Cole called Sam "Sammy" or Sammy boy" when he was torturing him - I'm not positive, but it seems likely - should he then be calling him that still now, because ouch... not the thing he should be reminding Sam of. Sure Sam seems to be generally forgiving, but seriously. Not. Cool.

 

* (like I do - seriously, for some reason my last name gets turned into a similar first name and people call me it on a regular basis. I don't care and answer to it, too, and since I'm terrible with people's names anyway, it's actually kind of fitting).

[DittyDotDot]

Also, these aren't just nicknames, calling Sam Sammy has a history that is intimate and about their little family in this show. Also, it doesn't ring true that Sam and Dean wouldn't react to it.

 

And, as always, if you have to explain your choices, either as an actor, a writer, or a director, it's a very large sign that screams: it didn't work.

 

The director should have stopped it.

 

What's funny to me is I don't even remember hearing Cole addressing them with nicknames. That's how little the show is engaging me lately. Anyway, I think the problem is the director is fairly new to Supernatural and probably doesn't know the history either. He's directed three episodes, the first one being First Born last season.

 

I haven't read Travis's comments, so I might not be getting this right...I guess I really don't have an issue with nicknames, but it does seem odd no one remembered Sam doesn't even like to be called Sammy and only allows Dean to call him that. Dean has a propensity for coming up with nicknames himself and not the first time someone's called him Deano, probably wouldn't think one thing about it. Does seem like something the character of Cole would do and Dean usually rolls with stuff like this better than Sam does.

 

However, does seem like if you have to explain your choice, it may not have been the best choice.

Edited March 23, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[Wynne88]

The only person I can remember calling Dean 'Deano' was Meg, in the episode where Jo and Ellen died. (Sorry, drawing a blank on the name.) So that nickname already comes with baggage even without it feeling like Cole is using it to imply an even playing field. Using Sammy-boy bothers me because of the supposed age difference and because it sounds condescending. But I figure it would take more than a nickname to get to Sam if he can get past all the other crap that Cole did to him.

I think I might have liked the character better if they hadn't tried to cram so much into it. He was a young boy whose father was killed by a Dean who had to have been at least 10 years older. Since that time, he has done 2 tours of duty, gotten married, had a kid who was what - 5 or 6?, studied every kind of martial art in the world and become savvy enough to be able to track Dean down when law enforcement never could. The actor looks old enough to have done all those things, but there's no way the character could have. I just have a hard time ignoring that anytime Cole is on screen.

[DittyDotDot]

I think I might have liked the character better if they hadn't tried to cram so much into it. He was a young boy whose father was killed by a Dean who had to have been at least 10 years older. Since that time, he has done 2 tours of duty, gotten married, had a kid who was what - 5 or 6?, studied every kind of martial art in the world and become savvy enough to be able to track Dean down when law enforcement never could. The actor looks old enough to have done all those things, but there's no way the character could have. I just have a hard time ignoring that anytime Cole is on screen.

 

Yeah, I have a hard time getting past the age thing too. His son looked like he was 7ish...so that means the kid was born when he was 17? It's totally possible, but seems highly unlikely also. I just pretend the guy is around 30ish. I know it doesn't line up with Dean's age and the killing of his father, but this show has made me really good at delusional thinking. ;)

 

ETA: I may've been thinking of how Demian used to call Dean "Dashing El Deano" in his recaps. Either way, I don't imagine Dean really caring one way or the other.

Edited March 23, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[Wynne88]

I didn't mean to imply that the name 'Dean-O' carried baggage for Dean.  I agree, he probably couldn't care less.  It's just every time I heard it, I personally flashed back to Meg.

[SueB]

 

* (like I do - seriously, for some reason my last name gets turned into a similar first name and people call me it on a regular basis. I don't care and answer to it, too, and since I'm terrible with people's names anyway, it's actually kind of fitting).

...So....your first name is Awe?  J/K

[catrox14]

:

"Believe me when I say that if Cole wanted to truly hurt Sam he would have and he also would have tortured him to the point where Sam or any human being for that matter would have broken down and given the information. Well, everyone except Jack Bauer. Cole chose the most humane way to get to Dean through Sam and that is just fantastic writing by the creators of the show."

Um, no. He was phone call away from taking a hammer to Sams knee. He actually used Sams bad shoulder against him and he called him Sammy during the torture. So sorry Travis, unless Cole was possessed by a demon this was human being torturing sam. Shit Gordon didn't even do to Dean what Cole did to Sam. And if all Cole wanted to do was find Dean he could have just kept following him without all the torture.

Ugh. He's goddamn lucky that demon! Dean didn't rip his throat out with his teeth.

Edited March 23, 2015 by catrox14

[supposebly]

The funny thing is that if Cole had found Dean, he would have been dead. I forget, did Sam even know where Dean was at this point?

 

Because by not telling, he protected Cole's torturing ass.

 

So, yeah, I wouldn't have minded Demon Dean ripping his throat out a little bit. That fight was the only time I found Demon Dean even remotely scary. So, a bit more of that would have been much appreciated.

[sarthaz]

Having a hard time getting on board with the nickname controversy, although TAW's long explanation is a little strange.  When I heard it, I thought, "Cole's trying to establish himself as an equal or superior to the boys, so he's belittling them with nicknames."  It made sense with his character, so I didn't have a problem with it.  I suspect the real reason people have a problem with it is the obvious way this episode pandered to a character no one cares about, in what felt like a transparent effort to make a spinoff show about him, while the Winchesters are mostly pawns in an episode that's all about Cole.

 

So if Azazel calls him  "Sammy Boy!", it's awesome, cause Azazel's a scary badass.  And if Meg says, "Dean-O", it's cool, cuz Meg is a firecracker who'll take on anyone in Heaven or Hell, and she's earned some diminutive name-calling.  But when Cole does it, it's like, "Fuck you, Cole! We don't give a shit about you!" and everyone gets mad about it. Anyway, I don't think it's the nicknames in-and-of-themselves that bother most people but the way Cole has been written into the show.

 

I'm just thankful they didn't name his character Frank.  Frank, Sammy, and Dean-O? Oy!