Lady S. November 25, 2015 Share November 25, 2015 Velaryon being one of the loyal bannermen to Stannis interests me because they are one of the other houses that is Valyrian, correct? So you would think that they wouldn't be quite so loyal to the usurpers line, but the Baratheons and those other families have been connected since Aegon the Conqueror. I don't remember if he sided with Robert over Aerys/Rhaegar (or if it is even addressed). I'm sure the Velaryons were royalists during the Rebellion, as they were sworn to Dragonstone. But the last Prince of Dragonstone is long dead and their current liege throws people in a dungeon for reneging on their support. I doubt Velaryon could easily get away with just refusing to come at all when Stan called his banners, pragmatism and self-preservation likely wins out over ancient pre-Valyrian Doom history. I don't think old Valyrian dragon-blood really counts so much with all the actual dragons dead, and as you said the Baratheons have the blood too, if not the looks. I do find it interesting, though, in light of Renly's claims that Stannis is incapable of inspiring loyalty or getting men to follow him, that Stannis does have the allegiance of men who should theoretically be opposed to any usurper in Rhaegar's castle, and there doesn't even appear to be much reluctance in that allegiance. (He may have some problem with burning the Seven, but doesn't seem opposed to Stannis himself as a person.) Getting Stannis' religious views is interesting too because he's one of the few characters who doesn't trouble to hide the fact that he doesn't really seem to believe in religion. He seems to think that it's mostly bullshit and even seeing examples of Melisandre's power, he's still not going full on fanatic like Selyse. Nor does he seem interested in obtaining more red priests. This was always curious to me that he didn't at least float the idea to bring more into his service only to have Melisandre shoot down the idea because she wants to be the one to control what Stannis knows about the religion of the Lord of Light. You'd think if Stannis thought all red priests are truly powerful that he'd want more of them on his side unless he thinks that Melisandre is exceptional compared to the others. And how would he know that unless he makes a comparison? Or maybe the comparison is to Thoros of Myr and he assumes that most red priests are like him? I can see Stannis disapproving of Thoros for drinking. Furthermore, if Stannis is trying to convert people and spread the word of the Lord of Light then that's even more reason to have more red priests enter his service. I also felt like I picked up on a touch of jealousy that the older brothers have for Devan and probably would have had for the other younger two. The younger sons are benefitting the most from their father's improved status and they probably don't even have memories of the lean years. Devan is clearly on the path to becoming a knight whereas knighthood seems like it's a pretty uncertain with the older boys. I thought it was interesting too that one of the older sons criticized Davos for calling them sons of a smuggler rather than a knight. I felt like they were both right. Davos needs to accept his new status and the kids can't forget history of how their father became known as the onion knight. This chapter has also made me lean towards Dany being Jon's Nissa Nissa. I know many feel that Lightbringer won't need to be reforged but I think that's the main reason we got the backstory--we're going to see some version of it play out again. Well, Thoros wasn't just a drunk, he had no powers at all until resurrecting Beric. It makes sense to me that Stannis would think Mel is exceptional if he'd previously thought all Red Priests were as useless as Thoros was, sober or drunk. And if he never wanted more than her, I'd think that's just not being greedy or all that power-hungry, all he wants in his throne, and only one Red God rep could have been enough for that if the Battle of Blackwater had gone differently. And without a Stannis PoV we can't rule out the possibility that he asked and Mel dissuaded him from sending for more, I don't think that's a huge omission from her later PoV. (I doubt many would have come anyway, it's my impression that Mel came of her own initiative and I don't think she really had the authority to summon others, even if she wanted to.) The 3 youngest Seaworth sons wouldn't have memories of the lean years because they weren't born back then. Devan is only around 12, and I assume Davos's knighthood reward came shortly after his rescue of Storm's End and the end of Robert's Rebellion 14 or so years ago. If you meant just all the sons younger than Dale and Allard, then yeah, Matthos and Maric probably remember less of the peasant life than the eldest two, though we don't actually know the age differences there. The AA/Nissa Nissa story already has a point if it's just Stannis sacrificing Shireen, the person he loves most in all the world. It doesn't matter if Stannis isn't AAR or Shireen isn't willing, it'd still be a version of the story playing out again. And I think Shireen being his most loved person is a more significant similarity than Dany being known for baring her breasts, but I'll leave it at that because I don't feel like a long and slightly off-topic discussion right now. Lastly, Stannis gets more rootable as he goes along, but I feel like the convo with Davos at the end of this chapter is his most sympathetic for me. The fact that his disbelief in the Seven is not rooted in logical skepticism but the pain of watching his parents die is very humanizing, and imagining Stannis nursing an injured animal back to health is pretty endearing to me tbh. 4 Link to comment
nodorothyparker November 25, 2015 Share November 25, 2015 (edited) As an American obviously not raised under any sort of feudal or monarchal system, I generally find the loyalty to your ruling house and then to the crown regardless of who's right system these people live under fascinating. And if the family you were always loyal to happened to have been wiped out in the last rebellion more than a decade before except for one or two powerless outliers in exile, what loyalty do you really still owe them? Your continued allegiance is certainly not going to endear you to your new overlords and may very well be considered treason. The dragons are dead and the Baratheons do have Targaryen blood. Under the circumstances, that's probably good enough for the Velaryons. Stannis and Renly both as claimants for Baratheon bannermen is a particularly fascinating case. Stannis is technically correct that as the older brother under their system, both the family seat and the Stormlords' allegiance should rightfully be his. But here, the Stormlords mostly defy all those conventions to back the younger brother because he's more likable and charismatic and able to make a good alliance with the Tyrells. On the subject of R'holler and his followers, we know from what Jaime says somewhere down the line that Thoros mostly hung around court and got drunk with Robert despite his stated purpose of being there to convert Robert. He fought in a few battles and later melees but was mostly a drinking buddy always spilling wine on his robes. It's not hard to imagine Stannis not being particularly impressed by that and as a result being dismissive of the god and his followers until Mel showed up and fed and seemingly validated all his grievances about being the most worthy brother after all. Edited November 27, 2015 by nodorothyparker 1 Link to comment
Holmbo November 26, 2015 Share November 26, 2015 (edited) I think the main reason the storm lords followed Renly was because he was their lord. It seems in this story when different loyalty and interest clashes most people follow firstly the best interest of their family, then the will of their lord, then the king. Even if their society is telling them it should be the other way around. Edited November 26, 2015 by Holmbo Link to comment
nodorothyparker November 26, 2015 Share November 26, 2015 That goes back to one of Stannis's original big grievances, that by all custom and most laws of inheritance Robert never should have given Renly Storm's End in the first place. The common argument for it is that Dragonstone was the traditional seat of the heir to the throne and at the time the decision was made Robert had no children he believed to be legitimate heirs, so Stannis was his heir by default. But by leaving Renly as the only Baratheon in residence at the traditional family seat, Renly becomes the liege lord that the Stormlords recognized as theirs. So by the time our story starts, Stannis hasn't really been around in well more than a decade for them to feel any true fealty to. Throw in that he's known to be a rigid, petty man who isn't well liked by many, can't really make any big alliances because he's already married to a minor house, and now appears to be in the service of a weird foreign god and it becomes a pretty easy choice for most of them. 2 Link to comment
Holmbo November 26, 2015 Share November 26, 2015 Yup, and Robert's given reason for it was that he wanted a strong lord in Dragon Stone since his support would be the weakest there. Link to comment
nodorothyparker November 26, 2015 Share November 26, 2015 You can't even say that his reasoning that is such a terrible thing since it had been the longtime Targaryen stronghold. But it handed Stannis a reason to be butthurt at Robert for the rest of Robert's life and beyond and may ultimately prove to be one of the bigger seeds of destruction of the Baratheon line. Link to comment
Lady S. November 26, 2015 Share November 26, 2015 I remember this being brought up in the House Baratheon thread, and I think the issue was that Stannis could have held Dragonstone with being its lord or losing Storm's End. Robert could have waited to name Joffrey the Prince of Dragonstone (Stannis was never called Prince of Dragonstone like Rhaegar was or like Bran became Prince of Winterfell, so I don't think his brief stint as official heir was that important), while Stannis actually held it, and once the Baratheon dynasty was secured Stannis wouldn't be needed on Dragonstone. I think this was probably Robert's praised but seldom seen spirit of generosity at work, once he was king he had a lot of favors he could hand out, so he decided to give castles to both Stannis, and Renly, the cute little brother who looked up to him. But giving everyone their own piece of the pie could give independent family members more reason to be self-serving, especially when the youngest brother and last in line holds the traditional family seat, with larger domains than the crownlands around King's Landing and Dragonstone, and many more lords and knights sworn directly to his castle. 1 Link to comment
vibeology November 27, 2015 Share November 27, 2015 I'm never surprised when Robert makes a mess of something political, but every time I re-read the series, I think less and less of Jon Arryn. He would have been closely involved in that decision and it was a mistake. By giving Dragonstone to Stannis and Storm's End to Renly in perpetuity, it left no land for any of Roberts children. (The joke being that because none of his kids are actually his, everyone actually is in their proper place.) At the time those decisions were made Robert was either just about to be married or just married and planning for the future should have been on Jon Arryn's mind as hand. People in the novels think really highly of Arryn but between the kingdom's debt, trusting Littlefinger and Varys, allowing Lysa to baby his own heir and the poor decisions Robert made with his advice, I really think he was not very bright. It's no wonder Ned was such a mess if he grew up with Arryn as a mentor. 2 Link to comment
Lady S. November 28, 2015 Share November 28, 2015 People in the novels think really highly of Arryn but between the kingdom's debt, trusting Littlefinger and Varys, allowing Lysa to baby his own heir and the poor decisions Robert made with his advice, I really think he was not very bright. It's no wonder Ned was such a mess if he grew up with Arryn as a mentor. And most of the Jon Arryn praise I remember came from Ned and Robert, so that's reason to be skeptical too. (Although, as regards our favorite actor/eunuch and grimy little pimp, they had everyone trusting them for some reason, including good politicians like Tywin and Tyrion. Tyrion even knew Littlefinger framed him for murder and he still kept the sleaze around.) I do really question his handling of his family, since his only move regarding Sweetrobin was the idea of fostering him with Stannis, which seemed to only a way to keep him away from the Lannisters, and I doubt Stannis as father figure would really be the antidote for that kid's problems anyway. Link to comment
Constantinople November 28, 2015 Share November 28, 2015 I agree that Jon Arryn did a terrible job of reining in Robert's spendthrift ways, but it may not be all his fault. I doubt it was cheap to put down the Greyjoy Rebellion, and it's not as if plunder from the Iron Islands would pay for it. After Robert's Rebellion, some money probably had to be spent repairing the damage or some taxes may have had to be remitted or both. Plus the spying/bribe budget probably had to go up to keep track of Viserys & Daenerys and Targaryen loyalists in and outside the & Kingdoms. Link to comment
WearyTraveler November 28, 2015 Share November 28, 2015 It is difficult to gauge how efficient Arryn was because all we know about him comes from other, unreliable narrators. We do know that Robert was a stubborn ass who would listen to his advisers but do whatever the heck he wanted, anyway, if he wanted it bad enough. He begged Ned to take the job of Hand and then proceeded to ignore his advice time and time again. Off the top of my head, there's the Hand Tourney, which Ned absolutely didn't want and knew they had no money to pay for it, and then there was the decision to send assassins after the Dany. The system being a monarchy, it doesn't really have any of the checks and balances that other systems have. When push comes to shove, you either do what the king commands or mount a rebellion because disobeying your king makes you a traitor, and an oathbreaker and can land you in jail or make you literally lose your head. Link to comment
SeanC November 28, 2015 Share November 28, 2015 I'm never surprised when Robert makes a mess of something political, but every time I re-read the series, I think less and less of Jon Arryn. He would have been closely involved in that decision and it was a mistake. By giving Dragonstone to Stannis and Storm's End to Renly in perpetuity, it left no land for any of Roberts children. The Targaryen monarchy didn't traditionally have lands for other children either, so I don't think that's a big deal. Dragonstone was a temporary possession for whoever the heir was. Given the need to stabilize the new monarchy, establishing strong cadet branches would have been a good idea. As far as Arryn in general, I tend to think that GRRM kind of has it both ways with Robert's government. We're told that he was a largely absentee king, but that he also somehow managed to misgovern the realm to the extent that the largely competent ministers he had chosen (Arryn, Stannis) were unable to run things properly. The kingdom's debt, especially, doesn't make much sense. The only significant expenditure in Robert's 14-year reign appears to have been one minor rebellion early on; by all rights, the kingdom should be flush with cash. Either GRRM thinks that Robert's partying was somehow enough to ruin the Crown's finances, which doesn't make sense; or you go with the "Baelish created the debt to destabilize the realm and pad his own bank account" theory, which just makes everybody look like an idiot for not realizing that the Crown was acquiring massive debts without any apparent expenditures sufficient to account for them. 1 Link to comment
vibeology November 28, 2015 Share November 28, 2015 The Targaryens had Dragonstone and also had Summerhall before the tragedy. Robert left his kids with nothing. Stannis and his heirs get Dragonstone, Renly and his heirs get Storm's End. What do Robert's kids get? Eventually the heir becomes king but other kids? Paying for royal kids is the sort of thing that creates serious debt. Without lands, where do incomes come from? How do you marry off your kids without lands to settle on? It mattered less with the Targaryens since their kids married each other. There was less need for places to settle kids because the kids all ended up living in the same castles. The debt in general is a problem. Rebuilding after Robert's rebellion, the Greyjoy rebellion, tournaments every year, a love of food and parties does not equal a crushing debt that can never be unpaid or whatever. I don't know if it started out as a debt scheme, but I do think Littlefinger made some choices that left the realm vulnerable to him once he realized that absolutely no one else on the Small Council knew enough or cared enough to stop him. Link to comment
SeanC November 28, 2015 Share November 28, 2015 It mattered less with the Targaryens since their kids married each other. Intermarriage amongst the kids doesn't mean you have fewer cadet branches; it just means your daughters marry within the family. You still have as many sons to find places for as you had before. Link to comment
nodorothyparker November 28, 2015 Share November 28, 2015 (edited) I've always assumed, and now I'm blanking on how much of it's truly implied and how much is me reading between the lines, that it was a combination of Robert being a spendthrift nobody really bothered to rein in, Littlefinger doing some truly questionable bookkeeping for his own nefarious purposes, and Tywin's willingness to bankroll it all to keep a Lannister stranglehold on every aspect of court until his grandson ascends to the throne. We know that when Tyrion is later handed Littlefinger's job, he's flummoxed trying to sort it all out and when he tries to raise concerns he's very airly dismissed with "Littlefinger always found money somehow." No one seems all that interested in where exactly money comes from or goes as long as it's there to pay for their war or ridiculously lavish wedding. Robert may bitch about being "surrounded by bloody Lannisters," but he never makes any move to do anything about it except bring Ned to court. Part of that is his own impotence as a king who'd rather be left to drink and tourney and whore, but part of it as he acknowledges to Ned is just how deeply he's in debt to Tywin. That hardly seems coincidental and why I've never been terribly impressed with Jon Arryn either. Edited November 28, 2015 by nodorothyparker 1 Link to comment
John Potts November 28, 2015 Share November 28, 2015 SeanC Given the need to stabilize the new monarchy, establishing strong cadet branches would have been a good idea. Given the previous Dance of Dragons, I would think establishing strong cadet branches was the last thing the Targaryens wanted. Through history, having too many heirs caused as many problems as having too few (William I & his 3 sons and Henry II with his 4 had this problem). One reason for encouraging younger sons to join the priesthood where they usually (not so coincidentally) went on to become Bishops was to limit the competing lines of succession. "Taking the Black" in Westeros (and rising to high office there) seems to serve the same function. 3 Link to comment
SeanC November 28, 2015 Share November 28, 2015 I wasn't talking about the Targaryens, but the Baratheons. Regardless, giving the lands to Robert's brothers or Robert's children would have the same effect in the long-term. Link to comment
Holmbo November 28, 2015 Share November 28, 2015 I've never really thought about how all this debt came about. I suppose that even if Robert had no real interest in running the kingdom he'd probably have some impulses every no and then about things he wanted done. Like that lord should get less taxes because he had a fun hunting trip with him. Or that expensive gifts should be given to different people. I don't know that LF would have been able to actually make the kingdom broke by his investments without anyone noticing that the money disappeared. But perhaps he could plant some seeds in Roberts mind of different things to spend it on. I can't remember learning much at all about Jon Arryn's personality. Just some things Cat thought about him and his relationship with Lysa. Link to comment
Lady S. November 28, 2015 Share November 28, 2015 The Targaryens had Dragonstone and also had Summerhall before the tragedy. Robert left his kids with nothing. Stannis and his heirs get Dragonstone, Renly and his heirs get Storm's End. What do Robert's kids get? Eventually the heir becomes king but other kids? Paying for royal kids is the sort of thing that creates serious debt. Without lands, where do incomes come from? How do you marry off your kids without lands to settle on? It mattered less with the Targaryens since their kids married each other. There was less need for places to settle kids because the kids all ended up living in the same castles. That makes sense if a king only has one son and daughter, more than that and it's just landless extra mouths laying about the Red Keep, same as any other family, except the extra mouths are divided into couples. And that's even assuming the extra kids all married back into the family, but it's not like they always had even numbers of male and female Targs. Jaehaerys and Alysanne had over 10 kids, Daeron II had 4 sons and no daughters, and Egg had 3 brothers and 2 sisters and himself fathered 3 sons and 2 daughters, and that's only the children of those who sat the Throne. Just look at Daemon the Rogue Prince with the typical ne'er do well younger son problems, trying to make his own petty kingdoms on the Stepstones or in the streets of King's Landing. Storm's End was the traditional Baratheon/Durrandon seat, and I don't see what good it would have done to make it and all the Stormlands properties of the crown, especially when Stannis was already a grown man in need of his own place, and back then they would have expected him to father multiple children to continue the Storm Kings' family line for continuity's sake. Stannis and Renly needed their own incomes and places for their own future families, just as much, if not more than Tommen did (since Tommen had the Lannister funds and his mother's claim to Casterly Rock), imo it's just that Robert could have found a better way to provide for Renly without giving him basis for a rival claim. Agreed that Robert's debt really doesn't add up, he was a glutton in every sense and apathetic to where money came from, but it doesn't sound like he was giving money away to any cronies or friends outside the family, and his personal expenditures weren't really that crazy. Link to comment
WearyTraveler November 29, 2015 Share November 29, 2015 (edited) I'm trying to think about the costs of running a kingdom such as Westeros and how Robert could have spent the Royal treasure after he took the throne. This situation in the books reminds me of those stories about lottery winners who go bankrupt and how many people ask themselves "how in the heck did that person manage to lose XXXX million dollars?" I'm thinking four categories: big ticket items, bad loans, running expenses, indulgence. A) Big ticket items: I'm going to assume that Robert's rebellion ravaged the country badly, maybe not as badly as the War of the 5 Kings, but seeing how battles, sieges and war play out in this world and how many characters speak about the suffering of the common people while the lords play their "games", it is likely that the countryside was fairly devastated after the rebellion. It's said in the books that the common folk loved Robert, so, I'm going to assume that the crown helped rebuild the country by providing funds for reconstruction and even improvements on infrastructure like roads, bridges, etc. Much like a lottery winner goes out and starts buying houses and cars, and other luxury items. Balon's rebellion probably didn't cause as much damage, but the crown likely had to reinforce its fleet, and we know that Robert and Cersei each had their Royal boats. So, I'm thinking some more money given to the towns affected by Balon's rebellion and the building/reinforcement of a fairly large fleet for the Royal Navy, which brings me to.... B) Bad loans: I'm not sure how financially sophisticated the Westerosi are, but since we know there are banks and a system to collect taxes and such, I'm going to assume that they understood that it's better to finance the big ticket items, rather than spending all the capital at once, even if you have it. The problem probably was that the crown accepted unfavorable terms. Or perhaps the lending system has high interest rates in a place like Westeros, where the risks are high -think of the Castameres that were completely wiped out, if they had any outstanding loans with anybody, who would pay them? There's also the possibility that since Arryn trusted LF, he didn't look into the details of the finances. Another factor is that Tywin could have been charging a very high interest rate to the crown, but they trusted him because why would he want to hurt his own family (Cersei and his grandchildren)? and so, they didn't inspect these loans. In the Small Council no one asks these questions. LF says he'll find or has found the money through a loan and not a single person asks about the terms. I also think that LF made very complicated deals and tried his best to make the books as inscrutable as possible, in order to plant the seeds for chaos. It seems that these lords don't concern themselves too much with the particulars if the money is coming in. C) Running Expenses: I'm thinking running KL and Westeros does not come cheap. They have to pay salaries for all the people working in the castle and it sounds like they are a whole army. They probably also have to pay salaries to the members of the Small Council large enough for them to keep their own servants in the Red Keep, not to mention all the food, drink and cleaning supplies. They have to pay the soldiers of the City Watch, including their equipment: armor, weapons, meals, etc. And this equipment probably needs maintenance and replacements every few months. Likewise, they have to pay their Naval officers and soldiers, and keep their ships in good condition. It's probably not as much as any of the other Royal Military Forces, but the crown also has to pay for the Kingsguard, their armor, their equipment, their squires, and so on. Castle services also include the armory, which has its own forge, the stables and its horses, trainers for new recruits, etc. Any trip or mission taken on behalf of the crown would be their financial responsibility too, so, anytime LF went to Braavos to ask for a loan or a group of men were dispatched by the King to attend some matter in Westeros, the crown would have to pay for their carts, horses, equipment, lodging on the road and food. These would include squires, scribes, cupbearers, ravens and any other servant that they thought they might need. So, a trip to settle a dispute between two lords could run a few thousand dragons. I don't know how the Faith and the Maesters in Oldtown are financed, but since these two institutions were created by the Targs and they serve all of Westeros, I'm betting that a large chunk of their budget comes from the crown. And they have hundreds of septons, septas, maesters, teachers, students, servants and infrastructure of their own. D) Indulgence: Finally, there are all the things that Robert and Cersei buy because they can. Robert's parties are probably not cheap, and as we know from the Hand Tourney, the crown spends quite a lot of money on these things, giving away grand prizes of thousands of dragons, and paying for all the set up. Incidentally, if a Kingsguard is participating in one of these, it's likely the crown is financing it. Aside from the tourneys there are all the whores, and the wine, and the hunting. Then there are Cersei's gowns and her jewelry. The way these things are described in the books, they sound pretty expensive, and I'm sure Cersei is not paying for these with Lannister money. She has necklaces of emeralds and rubies, and diamond diadems and crowns, golden rings and so on. And so do her children. One piece from her collection is probably worth hundreds of thousands of dragons. If this is so, I can see how the Robert's government had been operating at a deficit (like many of our governments do) for a long time, which eventually bankrupted the crown. Edited November 29, 2015 by WearyTraveler 4 Link to comment
John Potts November 29, 2015 Share November 29, 2015 I really doubt it's any one thing that left the Kingdom in debt, so much as simply not caring about the finances. It doesn't need to be anything major, just an overall feeling that balancing the budget is just not important. Look at the US Budget today (or worse, Greece) - it's not so much that any one thing pushes them into debt, it's that people have a vested interest in government spending on them (whoever "they" are) or on tax breaks that benefit them and if the guy at the top goes "Hey, what's another 1000 Crowns when we're in debt for millions?" then the deficit will balloon (particularly if two people at the heart of the system - Tywin & Littlefinger - who might put the breaks on have a vested interest in making the debt worse). Once the debt starts to get unmanageable, it takes somebody who is ruthless in cutting the funds to turn it around (and that's certainly not going to happen during a war!). [And yes, I studied Economics!] 1 Link to comment
WearyTraveler November 29, 2015 Share November 29, 2015 (edited) Exactly! And it doesn't have to be a huge deficit. If they are taking 100 dragons in taxes yearly and paying 110 in interest and other expenses (such as the ones I described above), they have to take the extra 10 out of their capital every year. Robert has been in power for 15 years, that's a long time to be operating at a deficit, even a small one. But I get the feeling that the deficit started small and by the time Ned started looking it was pretty big. Edited November 29, 2015 by WearyTraveler Link to comment
SeanC November 29, 2015 Share November 29, 2015 But the thing is, we're told that Aerys left the treasury full of gold, and that under Baelish revenues have increased tenfold. There may have been postwar expenses, but the government can't possibly be ten times more costly then it was in Aerys' day. Link to comment
WearyTraveler November 29, 2015 Share November 29, 2015 (edited) Well you have to consider the cost of rebuilding after two wars (Robert's rebellion and Balon's rebellion), look at how much it cost Europe to rebuild after WWII. Then there are the additional expenses that Robert and Cersei made. Also, Aerys didn't have any knights to reward because they fought wars for him or to build a new fleet to face a rebellion from the Iron Islands, and as far as we know, Aerys' only extravagance was paying for wild fire, and that was only toward the end of his reign. For all we know Aerys was already running a deficit but he still had some capital left, and Robert's reign just made it worse. Edited November 29, 2015 by WearyTraveler Link to comment
Maximum Taco November 30, 2015 Share November 30, 2015 (edited) But the thing is, we're told that Aerys left the treasury full of gold, and that under Baelish revenues have increased tenfold. There may have been postwar expenses, but the government can't possibly be ten times more costly then it was in Aerys' day. I think we need to be skeptical about how Littlefinger runs things. They say he can rub two dragons together and breed a third, but there has to be some kind of creative book keeping going on there. I wouldn't be surprised if Littlefinger was running some kind of medieval Ponzi scheme. The Crown does have debts to multiple entities, maybe Littlefinger keeps robbing Peter to pay Paul and the way he keeps the books make it seem like the Kingdom is raking in cash when really it's not. Edited November 30, 2015 by Maximum Taco 2 Link to comment
SeanC November 30, 2015 Share November 30, 2015 I think we need to be skeptical about how Littlefinger runs things. They say he can rub two dragons together and breed a third, but there has to be some kind of creative book keeping going on there. I wouldn't be surprised if Littlefinger was running some kind of medieval Ponzi scheme. The Crown does have debts to multiple entities, maybe Littlefinger keeps robbing Peter to pay Paul and the way he keeps the books make it seem like the Kingdom is raking in cash when really it's not. Oh, I absolutely believe that the books are doctored to hell. But the fact remains that he is telling everybody else that he's increased revenues tenfold; it makes no sense that nobody has ever wondered how that can be the case and yet they still have a huge debt, given that the government doesn't seem to be particularly profligate in its expenses. The two main things governments spent money on in this era were wars and buildings (primarily fortifications), and the kingdom's expenses in neither area would be unusual -- indeed, the kingdoms have been quite peaceful. 1 Link to comment
John Potts November 30, 2015 Share November 30, 2015 SeanC Oh, I absolutely believe that the books are doctored to hell. I have no trouble believing that if Littlefinger was around in our modern world - he'd have worked for Enron (and probably cashed out with his $1bn before the whole edifice came crashing down)! 2 Link to comment
nodorothyparker November 30, 2015 Share November 30, 2015 But the thing is, we're told that Aerys left the treasury full of gold, and that under Baelish revenues have increased tenfold. There may have been postwar expenses, but the government can't possibly be ten times more costly then it was in Aerys' day. I know we're told this, but in thinking about it I have to wonder how reliable it really is. Tywin was Aerys' hand until fairly late in the game. He would certainly be in a position to know if Aerys truly left the kingdoms in good financial shape and could certainly take a fair amount of credit for it if that was the case. Yet he never says anything about it or as Joffrey's hand complains about the debt the Iron Throne owes him. I can't help but wonder, given how little the Small Council appears to care about debt or where money to pay for the Hand's Tourney even comes from in GOT, if Jon Arryn hadn't given Baelish pretty free rein since he was presumably loyal to him and Baelish had just been telling them all what a great master of coin he was. Baelish always manages to find money to pay for the things they want and no one seems to really concern themselves to question it. Link to comment
Holmbo December 2, 2015 Share December 2, 2015 I can't help but wonder, given how little the Small Council appears to care about debt or where money to pay for the Hand's Tourney even comes from in GOT, if Jon Arryn hadn't given Baelish pretty free rein since he was presumably loyal to him and Baelish had just been telling them all what a great master of coin he was. Baelish always manages to find money to pay for the things they want and no one seems to really concern themselves to question it. I think this might be the case. Was the idea that nobels shouldn't care about money around for the midel ages or is that something that came later when merchant begun to have more influence? I know that money lending was considered distasteful. As I understood it the reason for this was the view that the total economy was static so one persons gain was another persons loss. So to lend money with an interest was considered taking money without providing anything in return. Link to comment
Constantinople December 3, 2015 Share December 3, 2015 I think this might be the case. Was the idea that nobels shouldn't care about money around for the midel ages or is that something that came later when merchant begun to have more influence? I know that money lending was considered distasteful. As I understood it the reason for this was the view that the total economy was static so one persons gain was another persons loss. So to lend money with an interest was considered taking money without providing anything in return. That depends on whether you're asking about 1. Which sources of income or wealth were considered socially acceptable and which were not 2. How or if the money should be used 3. What financial controls were in place As to financial controls, at least in England it was a tad more sophisticated than the say-so of one minor nobleman. The king himself and his senior noblemen might not necessarily get into the nitty, gritty details (though the Magna Carta has a lot to say about financial matters). However, it's worth noting a book published in 1912 titled The Exchequer in the Twelfth Century is 190 pages long, excluding the index. Link to comment
Avaleigh December 8, 2015 Share December 8, 2015 (edited) Theon I There's no way to anchor safely at Pyke but Theon still gives the order to have the ship pass by it so that he can have the chance to see his father's castle again from the sea just as he did ten years earlier when he was taken away to become a ward of Ned Stark's. He remembers how he felt as he watched the castle grow smaller and smaller as he was taken away. Now, he likes the idea of seeing the castle grow larger and larger as he finally returns home. He catches a glimpse of his father's banner and seems to appreciate having a break from seeing the Stark banner all of the time. The red comet is visible as Theon is looking at the castle and Theon has decided that the comet is meant for him personally. He thinks about the letter from Robb that he carries with him and thinks that the letter is as good as a crown. The daughter of the captain of the ship asks Theon if the castle looks the same as he remembers it and Theon can't help but confess that it seems smaller. The girl observes that it must be windy at Pyke and Theon admits that it's a pretty miserable place to live in truth. He tells her his father says that the Iron Islands are a hard place that breeds hard men and hard men are the ones who go on to rule the world. Theon gives the captain permission to make for port and tells the man to summon him once they reach Lordsport. He then takes the captain's daughter with him down to his cabin and it's clear that the captain isn't happy about this but feels there isn't anything he can really say especially if he wants to collect on the gold Theon has promised him. Theon's cabin is in fact the cabin of the captain and it seems that the captain's daughter came to Theon's bed willingly. Theon doesn't think the daughter is pretty and thinks she's a little fat, but she gets points for being a virgin when he first has sex with her, and he's also turned on by the idea that the captain disapproves of the situation. He's amused to see the captain biting back his outrage and still being all courteous with Theon because he thinks having the money will be worth it. The captain's daughter asks Theon how long he's been away and says that he must be happy to finally be returning home. Theon says that he was ten or close enough when he was made a ward of the Starks. He thinks to himself about how he was a hostage in reality and feels that his life has finally become his own again. He seems to take comfort in the fact that there aren't any Starks around him. The captain's daughter says that she's never seen the Iron Islands before and Theon replies that she should count herself lucky. "The islands are stern and stony places, scant of comfort and bleak of prospect. Death is never far here, and life is mean and meager. Men spend their nights drinking ale and arguing over whose lot is worse, the fisherfolk who fight the sea or the farmers who try and scratch a crop from the poor thin soil. If truth be told, the miners have it worse than either, breaking their backs down in the dark, and for what? Iron, lead, tin, those are our treasures. Small wonder the ironmen of old turned to raiding." The captain's daughter suggests that she could go ashore with Theon and Theon tells her that she can go ashore if she wants but it won't be with him. She says that Theon could find a place for her in the kitchens of the castle and tells him that she can bake and cook, but Theon doesn't seem interested and is more concerned with taking off the girl's clothes. Theon says there was a time when he might have carried her off to be his salt wife whether she wanted to be or not but says that the days where the Ironborn could have a rock wife in addition to however many salt wives are long gone. The captain's daughter likes the idea of being Theon's salt wife and he tells her that a good salt wife would be willing to do as he commands. He says he wants to teach her something new and has her give him a blowjob. Theon thinks to himself that it's better this way because now he doesn't have to listen to the girl's seemingly endless stream of chatter. Theon thinks about how the Old Way of the Ironborn died when Aegon the Conqueror burned Black Harren and returned the Riverlands back to the rivermen. He thinks that his father Balon's rebellion was about trying to return to the Old Way and thinks that he has now succeeded where his father failed. Once he and the captain's daughter are finished, she asks him if he's pleased with her. He says that she was good enough and she goes back to chatting and tells him how much she likes the sea. Her comment stirs something in Theon and he admits that he loves the sea too. He thinks about how the sea means freedom to the Ironborn and has memories of the sea come flooding back. He tells himself that he must never go far from the sea again. The captain's daughter begs Theon to take her with him and says that she doesn't even need to be in the castle. She can be his salt wife in some town. He again tells her that this isn't going to happen and she pleads with him again saying that her father will beat her and punish her for everything that has happened. Theon says that fathers are like that and that she should just tell her dad that he should be proud since she'll likely end up pregnant and it isn't every man who gets to have the honor of raising a royal bastard. The captain's daughter just stares at him after he says this so Theon leaves her. In Lordsport Theon takes note of all of the longships including ships from other powerful houses from the Iron Islands. Theon looks for his uncle Euron's ship Silence but doesn't see it. He briefly wonders if his father called in his bannerman because he anticipated Theon's arrival. Theon seems surprised and dismayed when there are no familiar faces to greet him. He looks around and knows that ravens were sent to announce that he'd be coming so doesn't understand why his father hasn't sent some sort of guard to escort him back to Pyke. He's annoyed too that nobody seems to know or recognize him and even when people are told he's the heir they don't really seem to care. Theon thinks to himself that he should've worn his doublet with the big kraken on it. As Theon is getting a horse from the innkeeper, his uncle Aeron comes over and says that he'll escort Theon to Pyke. Aeron Greyjoy is a younger brother of Balon and Theon remembers a letter from his father telling him about how Aeron was in a shipwreck and has been a holy man every since he survived and washed up on shore. Aeron says that Balon sent him to escort Theon back to the castle so Theon goes back to the ship to grab his things. The captain's daughter is holding all of his stuff and she's crying and telling him that she loves him. Theon thanks her and quickly turns away so that he can head back to his uncle. Theon catches up with Aeron and tells him that he wouldn't have thought he'd be chosen as an escort. He adds that after ten years apart he thought maybe his mother or father would be interested in greeting him in person. Aeron tells Theon that it isn't for him to question Balon's decisions. Theon looks at Aeron and thinks that he's very unlike the man he remembered. The Aeron he remembers was quick to laugh and loved songs and women. Aeron asks Theon if he's begun to worship the "wolf gods" and Theon thinks to himself that he doesn't really spend all that much time praying. He says that Ned used to pray to a tree and that he doesn't have any interest in the Stark gods. Aeron tells Theon that's good and orders him to kneel and performs the Iron Islands version of a baptism. Theon agrees because he thinks to himself that he might need his uncle's help one day down the road. Theon tells Aeron that he's been away from the islands for half of his life and wonders if he'll find them changed. Aeron basically says that everything is the same and Theon again notes what a grim man his uncle has become. Theon asks after his mother and sister and is told that they are both away. His mother is living with her sister in Harlaw and his sister is in Great Wyk but should be returning before long. He thinks about how Asha's ship is named Black Wind and this makes him think of Grey Wind. Theon tells Aeron that the last time they were in each other's company, Aeron was drinking, singing, and dancing on table tops. Aeron says that he was a vain and youthful fool back then and says that the sea washed away his vanity and follies. He claims that he can see clearly now and Theon is starting to suspect that his uncle is more than a little touched. Angry that Aeron won't tell him why his father has called in his ships, Theon thinks about how he's led men in war, won honor in tourneys, and has ridden with men like the Greatjon and the Blackfish, and survived the Battle of the Whispering Wood. He feels that he has the right to know what his father's plans are especially since he's the heir to the Iron Islands. When Theon starts talking about how he's the heir, Aeron says that this isn't exactly set in stone and reminds Theon that he has a sister. Theon insists that he won't be cheated of his rights and Aeron says that Theon is a fool if he seriously thinks Balon would put the Iron Islands into the hands of the Starks. He tells Theon to remain silent for the rest of the journey. Theon held his tongue, though not without struggle. So that is the way of it, he thought. As if ten years in Winterfell could make a Stark. Lord Eddard had raised him among his own children, but Theon had never been one of them. The whole castle, from Lady Stark to the lowliest kitchen scullion, knew he was hostage to his father's good behavior, and treated him accordingly. Even the bastard Jon Snow had been accorded more honor than he had. It seems that Ned did attempt to be a father to Theon from time to time but Theon mainly saw him as the man responsible for bringing blood and fire to Pyke and for taking him from his family and home. He admits to himself that he feared Ned's stern face and his greatsword Ice; he thinks that Catelyn for her part was even more distant with him than Ned was. Robb and Jon were the only ones close enough in age for Theon to take notice of and he always sensed Jon's sullenness and jealousy. Theon thinks of Robb affectionately as though he's a younger brother and instinctively knows that he'll have to keep his regard for Robb to himself while he's at Pyke. Theon observes that in Pyke it seems that 'some wars are still being fought.' Theon thinks about how he got along pretty well with Patrek Mallister but as soon as they reached Seaguard and Lord Jason Mallister saw how well they were enjoying each other's company, he took Patrek aside to remind him that Seaguard was built to defend the coast against the reavers from the Iron Islands. Theon's brother Rodrik led the attack on Seaguard and Lord Jason was the one to personally kill him. Theon tells Patrek that Lord Jason is very much mistaken if he thinks that Theon has hard feelings over his brother's death. As he rides with Aeron in silence he wishes that it were Patrek beside him because at least Patrek knows how to have fun. Theon can't deal with the silence any longer and tells Aeron that Robb is the Lord of Winterfell now and has crowned himself the King in the North. Aeron tells Theon that this is old news and that they received ravens about all of this ages ago. Theon insists that it's a new day and points to the comet as proof. He tells Aeron that in the Riverlands the people are saying that the comet is the herald of a new day. Aeron tells Theon that the comet is a sign but it's a sign from the Drowned God. Aeron seems to think that it's a sign that the Ironborn need to launch their ships and use their swords. It's sunset by the time they reach Pyke and there's no one to greet Theon once he reaches the Great Keep. Aeron leaves Theon there and says that he has to return to doing the Drowned God's work. Theon is back to feeling upset about how cold his homecoming is and asks the servant who shows him to his chambers why his father isn't there to greet him. The servant informs Theon that Balon is waiting for him in the Sea Tower. Theon briefly thinks to himself that his father is a colder man even than Ned Stark. Theon inquires after the old steward and maester and learns that both men died years ago. Theon feels like he's a stranger and thinks it's odd that in some ways it's as though everything is different and in other ways everything is still the same. He isn't led to his old bedroom in the Sea Tower and is instead given a damp and musty smelling room in the Bloody Keep that clearly hasn't been used or cleaned in years. The mattress is disgusting and it doesn't help that Theon knows the story of how the Bloody Keep earned its name. Theon gets all dressed up for his long awaited reunion with his father and wears the doublet with the golden kraken. When he has to cross one of the rickety wood and rope bridges, his heart is in his throat as he's making the crossing and he wonders about how he used to be able to run across these same bridges as a boy without fear. Once Theon is finally inside of his father's solar he sees that his father is a lot smaller and thinner than the man he remembered. Balon says that they took Theon as a boy and asks Theon what he is now. Theon declares that he is a man and he is Balon's blood and heir. Balon says that they'll see about the heir part. Balon tells Theon that he was with the Starks for as long as he was with the Greyjoys. He points out that now Theon has returned it's as Stark's envoy. He says that he vowed to outlive both Robert and Ned and though he has, he notes that their deaths haven't taken any of his pain away. Balon takes in Theon's appearance and asks him if Ned made him dress in silks and velvets as though Theon were his daughter. Theon is immediately embarrassed and says that he'll change his clothes if they offend his father so much. Balon confirms that Theon is going to have to get with the program if he wants to prove he really is Ironborn. He criticizes Theon for not paying the iron price for his jewelry, angrily snatches the gold chain off of his neck, and throws it into the brazier. He tells Theon that he won't have a son of his going around dressed like a whore. Balon takes the necklace as proof that Theon has become soft through life with the Starks. Theon insists that his father is wrong and says that he never saw Ned as anything more than his gaoler. Balon points out that Theon has returned as a messenger boy to the Starks and Theon says that he was the one who gave Robb the idea to write the letter in the first place. Balon seems amused at the idea of the young wolf taking counsel from Theon and doesn't sound as though he entirely believes his son. Theon attempts to defend himself and says that Robb heeds his counsel because they've trained, hunted, and fought together. Theon says that Robb looks on him as a kind of older brother and when Balon hears this, he snaps and says that he won't sit and listen to Theon talk about how Robb is like a brother when Robb's father was responsible for the deaths of Theon's blood brothers Rodrik and Maron. Balon wonders aloud if Theon has forgotten his real brothers and Theon argues that he has forgotten nothing. He then thinks to himself that Ned technically wasn't the one responsible for the deaths of his brothers. He insists that he remembers his brothers very well but keeps his thoughts about how he didn't like them to himself. Theon gives Balon Robb's letter and addresses his father as he would a king when he does this. Balon quickly reads the letter and goes over the line about Robb giving him a crown. Balon doesn't think he needs a boy let alone a Stark boy to give him a crown. If he wants a crown then he'll take one and he'll pay the iron price for it. Theon says that with this plan he could take Casterly Rock and make it his own seat so that they can bring all of the wealth of the Rock into the hands of the Greyjoys. Balon comments that Casterly Rock has never been taken and Theon thinks to himself that it hasn't been taken yet. Balon throws Robb's letter into the fire and when Theon asks Balon if he's gone mad, Balon gives his son the back of his hand. He snaps at Theon to mind his tongue and reminds his son that he's no longer at Winterfell. Balon announces that he's going to do what Urron Redhand did some five thousand years ago. Theon backs away from his father and says that he can call himself King of the Iron Islands all he likes but most people aren't going to care until the war is over and then whoever does win is going to turn their sights on the old man with the iron crown on his head. Lord Balon laughed. "Well, at the least you are no craven. No more than I'm a fool. Do you think I gather my ships to watch them rock at anchor? I mean to carve out a kingdom with fire and sword . . . but not from the west, and not at the bidding of King Robb the Boy. Casterly Rock is too strong, and Lord Tywin too cunning by half. Aye, we might take Lannisport, but we should never keep it. No. I hunger for a different plum . . . not so juicy sweet, to be sure, yet it hangs there ripe and undefended." Theon almost asks his father which place he's thinking about and then it suddenly dawns on him. Edited December 8, 2015 by Avaleigh 1 Link to comment
Avaleigh December 9, 2015 Share December 9, 2015 (edited) I go back and forth with Theon which I guess is a pretty common reaction. I have sympathy for him but it's limited because I think there's a part of him that's naturally douche like anyway that I suspect no amount of time with a decent family would have changed that streak even if he hadn't been a hostage. That being said, he's so clearly being set up for failure that I can't help but feel for him a little. The icy homecoming where he suddenly realizes that as cold as Ned is, Ned wouldn't have let one of his sons have a cold reception like that. It's also unlikely that Ned would have given one of his son's the back of his hand for simply questioning his response to a particular situation. I thought it was funny and appropriate when Theon was told to stop talking and for Aeron, his nephew's chattering is just as irritating as the captain's daughters chatter was to Theon. I honestly didn't remember Aeron escorting Theon to the castle. I thought it was Asha who did that. It's crazy how much the show blends into the books if you've only read them once. Balon is an arrogant fool. I find it surprising that he didn't remarry and find some way of getting rid of his wife so that he could have more children. He doesn't seem like he'd be above doing anything like that. I get Walder Frey vibes with Balon. I can't explain it exactly but it's something to do with the contempt that he has for the Starks. I feel like Balon and Walder would have an amazingly hilarious booze session where they down drinks and complain about everyone in Westeros who gets on their nerves. The other thing in this chapter that stood out to me was Theon feeling that Jon was jealous of his high birth. Something about that rings true to me and I can see that being awkward for Theon. What's harder for me to swallow from Theon's perspective is the idea that Jon was treated better than Theon because Theon was a hostage in all but name. I'm honestly on the fence about this. Theon might have felt that but I'm not sure that it was necessarily demonstrated by actions from the Starks in general. When I think about Robert's reception and how Theon had an honored place but Jon didn't, it feels like Theon has a selective memory. OTOH maybe Theon is simply referring to the closeness that Jon enjoyed with most everyone save Catelyn and Sansa--that definitely wasn't the case with Theon. Plus, Jon had been at Winterfell since he was a baby so he would have been a lot more comfortable than Theon when they were tweens. Another thing I really liked is Theon understanding that Ned wasn't directly responsible for the deaths of his brothers. He also acknowledges to himself at least that he wasn't hugely effected by the death of his brothers. More than anything he needed to pretend to feel more than he did. Robb has easily been more of a brother to Theon than his real brothers ever were but there isn't anyone apart from Robb maybe who would even appreciate this fact. That has to be difficult for Theon. I can understand how he might feel that there's no one who really understands him. Still, his treatment of the captain's daughter was vile and he seems like he's not very nice to servants in general. ETA: I forgot to mention how fascinated I was when I realized that Theon's original plan was to hit the Lannisters at the heart and go for Casterly Rock. Interesting that Balon doesn't think they'd be able to hold the Rock but at least seems to think that it's plausible that the Ironborn could hold Winterfell. I wonder what the difference is in his mind? He cites Tywin for being intelligent and everyone knows the Lannisters have a very large family so maybe that's it. OTOH CR has the advantage of being by the sea and I would think Balon would feel that it would be a bonus. I like the early mention of Euron and Silence. Edited December 9, 2015 by Avaleigh 2 Link to comment
benteen December 9, 2015 Share December 9, 2015 I really enjoyed the Theon chapters in the book. Having watched the first season and then read the books, I was surprised with just how unlikeable Theon was. The fact that Balon was already building up a fleet is a good indication he was going to war and didn't care about sacrificing his son to do it. Robb can't be blamed for that but he can be blamed for letting Theon go, leading to Theon plotting to take Winterfell. Balon was a fool for both invading the North instead of joining with them and for his shitty treatment of his son. If he had embraced Theon, he would have had a more loyal and valuable man for his invasion. Theon's later Winterfell plan was actually a brilliant one. His mistake was trying to hold Winterfell instead of putting it to the torch and leaving with valuable hostages in the Stark boys, the Reed kids and the two Freys. THAT would have given Balon the Stupid some real leverage. 2 Link to comment
nodorothyparker December 9, 2015 Share December 9, 2015 Theon's a right douche but you can kind of see how that came about. I don't think we're ever told specifically how big the age gap was between him and his brothers, but it seems to have been enough that they were grown men who died in battle while he was maybe 8 or 9 when he was taken as hostage. Maybe Balon was a little less of a cranky headcase before that, but he still doesn't strike me as someone who was ever a warm and fuzzy kind of parent. It was also his rebellion that led to Theon being taken, which Balon now seems to blame him for. Sure, Theon got to grow up with and be educated with the Stark children, but you also get the sense that no one with maybe the exception of Robb ever really forgot that or let him forget it. The Mallisters certainly don't here. Jon and Theon seem to have been somewhat jealous of each other despite both being treated as less than. Ned doesn't come off as having been unkind to him at all, but he also wasn't his father and probably also did his best to keep him at a certain distance in case he did have to follow through on standard hostage holding procedure if Balon rebelled again. No wonder Theon's messed up on exactly who he is. I like that he's written as kind of an asshole but one that started out with the deck stacked against him. Of all the families and cultures we're presented with in this series the Iron Islands always come off to me as one of the ugliest and least civilized, certainly the most primitive of the Seven Kingdoms. I know they're supposed to be modeled loosely on the Vikings with their raiding culture, but this batch always makes me think they probably really smell even with the pseudo-medieval setting. The fact that not one of them can act the least bit happy to see their prince returned home after so long through no fault of his own makes them almost entirely unsympathetic. It also doesn't help that Balon's clearly gearing up to go to war again regardless of Theon's whereabouts or hostage status, something Theon doesn't seem to be getting the full implication of. We've seen over and over again that Theon is not much of a tactician and doesn't really think long range. It's all immediate gratification and what he can get without any thought to whether he can hold it or what the consequences might be. His idea of going after Casterly Rock is no exception. We're told that even Targaryens with dragons couldn't conquer the Rock and there are plenty of Lannisters about who can make life really terrible for them when they invariably fail. 3 Link to comment
vibeology December 9, 2015 Share December 9, 2015 Theon is another major reason I adore this book. He's a mess and I don't like the guy, but so fascinating and well-written. I feel the anxiety and fear that pushes him from one stupid choice to another radiating right off the page. He doesn't feel like he has a place and when he goes home he discovers he still doesn't really belong. That's got to be rough. No wonder he's so eager to make a place of his own. At the same time he's so arrogant and yet so stupid. He doesn't take a second to look around him and see what's going on and what that means. He never thinks, "gee, what would have happened to me if Balon had attacked the North while I was with the Starks." Ships don't get built overnight. He also doesn't understand that he will need to pay some dues to get a foothold with his father and his people. Of all the families and cultures we're presented with in this series the Iron Islands always come off to me as one of the ugliest and least civilized, certainly the most primitive of the Seven Kingdoms. I know they're supposed to be modeled loosely on the Vikings with their raiding culture, but this batch always makes me think they probably really smell even with the pseudo-medieval setting. The fact that not one of them can act the least bit happy to see their prince returned home after so long through no fault of his own makes them almost entirely unsympathetic. It also doesn't help that Balon's clearly gearing up to go to war again regardless of Theon's whereabouts or hostage status, something Theon doesn't seem to be getting the full implication of. The Ironborn are far and away my least favourite group in the series. I don't mind that they're hard people who raid. I do hate that every single one of them seems miserable. This is not a happy story, but the Ironborn really test me. Theon was taken as a boy and no one in his family is anything but suspicious and judgmental when he comes home? That's awful. I love Theon chapters because I think he's a wholly developed character with strengths, flaws and issues that make him interesting but the other Ironborn chapters are a chore. 5 Link to comment
nodorothyparker December 9, 2015 Share December 9, 2015 (edited) Theon for me is one of the best written and most complex characters of the series. Jaime Lannister may be mine and a lot of readers' favorites for his sheer depth of characterization and story arc, but Theon comes in a close second. I can absolutely think he's a terrible mess of a human being and a general all around idiot and bad guy in this book and still just want to weep for him for what he's become by specific chapters in DWD. There are things I can point to about every singe house or culture we're introduced to that I don't like but none of them exhaust me the way the Ironborn do. They seem like such miserable assholes even to each other just all the time. Part of that I think we're supposed to think comes from having so little compared to the fantastical wealth and castles of other great houses other than "a pile of shit-stained rocks" and having to take everything they have. It still makes it damn near impossible to root for any of them to do anything but slide into the sea. Edited December 9, 2015 by nodorothyparker 2 Link to comment
John Potts December 9, 2015 Share December 9, 2015 It does strike me that Theon is just such a dick here. His treatment of the Captain's daughter is entirely one of entitlement (I'm a Lord, you should be grateful!) yet he claims to not be like the Starks (not that the Starks were really like that either, that's more like King Robert). To a certain extent, you can see how his upbringing as a hostage might lead him that way - he's seen how Robb, even if Ned didn't allow him to Lord it over his brothers, undoubtedly was treated differently as heir from the others he grew up with - and now HE'S the heir (or so he thinks) it's HIS turn. And funny that the scene with Asha (Yara) taking him to his father was completely invented by the show, because I'd forgotten that it had gone differently. Also, interesting that Balon is sure Tywin will come out on top, without pondering what that might mean for their rebellion if the Lannisters survived. You do wonder how the war might have gone if the Ironborn had attacked Lannisport while Robb was tearing up their armies to the North (and it wouldn't even be a throne "gifted" by the Starks, they'd have played their part). But Balon's pride won't let him deal with Robb at all (even if he doesn't care about his son) because Eddard was Theon's jailer. If any faction is wiped out at the end of the final book, I hope it's the Ironborn! 1 Link to comment
nodorothyparker December 9, 2015 Share December 9, 2015 Doesn't the scene with Asha/Yara happen in the next Theon chapter after he's gone out of the castle for some reason? I'm in the middle of packing for a move and don't have my book copy readily available, but I'm sure I remember reading it. 3 Link to comment
Avaleigh December 9, 2015 Share December 9, 2015 (edited) I'm sure I remember reading it too. I remember Asha resisting when he tried to put the moves on her. Edited December 9, 2015 by Avaleigh Link to comment
vibeology December 9, 2015 Share December 9, 2015 Yes that lovely bit of business is still coming. Link to comment
Avaleigh December 9, 2015 Share December 9, 2015 Daenerys I The old men who remain apart of Dany's khalasar think that the red comet is a bad omen but Dany thinks the gods have sent the comet to show her the way. She is convinced that the comet is a herald of her coming. When Dany tells Doreah that they're to go in the direction of the comet, Doreah is frightened and says that the red lands are a place the riders all say is terrible. Dany insists that the comet is pointing them in the right direction but privately admits to herself that it's the only option she really has since her ragged band of old men, women, and children would easily be swallowed up by the first khalasar they come across. Dany discussed her options earlier with Ser Jorah and Jorah advises her to keep her distance from men like Khal Pono even though Pono was once part of Drogo's ko and was always nice to Dany. Jorah says that Pono wouldn't hesitate in killing her now and basically says that she's even more vulnerable with the dragons because they aren't big enough to be able to defend her yet and every man she comes across will want them. Dany thinks about how the dragons are hers and were born because of her faith. She thinks that the deaths of Drogo, their son, and Mirri Maz Duur paid for the lives of her three dragons. They ride at night and start leaving a trail of dead animals on the first day. The first man dies on the third day into their journey and Dany soon understands why Doreah was so concerned about heading in the direction of the red lands. A couple of days later an infant girl dies and Dany thinks about how the child was too young to ride and consequently won't have a spot in Dothraki heaven. There's hardly any water to be found and they're soon out of wine and most of their food. They're surviving on dead horses and Dany is thirsty and starving along with everyone else. It takes Dany some time to remember that dragons like to have their meat cooked and once she figures this out they begin to eat and grow. Each evening when they set out to ride Dany chooses one of the three dragons to ride on her shoulder while Irri and Jhiqui carry the other two in a wooden cage. Dany tells the Dothraki about how the dragons of Aegon and his sisters were named after the gods of Old Valyria. Aggo observes that Dany's black dragon looks like Balerion reborn. "It may be as you say, blood of my blood," Dany replied gravely, "but he shall have a new name for this new life. I would name them all for those the gods have taken. The green one shall be Rhaegal, for my valiant brother who died on the green banks of the Trident. The cream-and-gold I call Viserion. Viserys was cruel and weak and frightened, yet he was my brother still. His dragon will do what he could not." "And the black beast?" asked Ser Jorah Mormont. "The black," she said, "is Drogon." The dragons are faring well but Dany's khalasar is shrinking day by day. Doreah gets weaker and weaker until she's unable to ride her horse any longer. Jhogo tries to get Dany to leave Doreah but Dany refuses and remembers how Doreah taught her how to get Drogo to love her more. Dany stays by Doreah's side and gives her water and what comfort she can until the Lysene girl dies while holding her hand. They don't see any other travelers on their journey and the Dothraki are starting to think that the comet is leading them into some kind of hell. Dany asks Jorah if there's an end to the red waste and Jorah says that there are cities beyond the red waste but admits that the way they've chosen is harder than he anticipated. He maintains that if they turn back then they'll definitely die but if they press on they'll still have a chance. Dany kisses Jorah on the cheek after he says this and feels happy when she sees him smile. A third of the khalasar is lost and Dany is starting to wonder if she's come all of this way only to die, but can't bring herself to believe it especially because of how she was able to get the eggs to hatch. Just as Dany is about to command the group to make camp, her riders come back in excitement and tell her there's a city about an hour's ride away. When they finally reach the city, it initially seems so beautiful that Dany feels certain it must be some kind of mirage. They soon realize that the city is long abandoned and go inside to make camp in one of the deserted palaces. They find fruit and water but it's clear that the Dothraki are nervous to be in a dead city and seem to fear the possibility that there are ghosts roaming around. Dany watches little Rhaegal trying to fly inside of her tent and wonders what it would feel like to ride a dragon the way the old Targaryens once did. Irri interrupts Dany's thoughts to tell her that Jorah would like a word. Jorah comes in to bring Dany a peach and she eats the entire thing in front of him. Jorah says they should stay in the city so they can rest up and regain strength. Dany tells Jorah of her handmaids fear of ghosts lingering in the city and Jorah argues that there are ghosts everywhere. Thinking about Viserys, Drogo, and Rhaego, Dany acknowledges the truth of her ghosts being with her always and asks Jorah to finally tell her about his own. She asks him to name his ghost and Jorah says that the ghost's name is Lynesse. After Dany prods him, Jorah tells Dany that Lynesse Hightower was his second wife. The Hightowers are a wealthy family and Lynesse had a great uncle who was a member of the Kingsguard. Dany says that she remembers Viserys saying that the Hightowers were one of the few families that stayed loyal to their father. Dany asks Jorah for his backstory so he tells her about his first wife who died after a series of miscarriages. He and the first wife were married for about a decade and the marriage produced no children. He admits to having his share of women before and after his marriage and says that his marriage was one of duty more than one of love. By the time Jorah's first wife died, his father Jeor had already taken the black and Jorah was the Lord of Bear Island in his own right. Jorah won his knighthood for his service during Balon's Rebellion and after Robert's victory a tourney was held outside Lannisport. It was at the tourney that Jorah met the girl Lynesse who was half his age and seemingly out of his league in terms of family. For whatever reason, he gave Jorah her favor to wear during the tourney and he ended up winning the champion's laurel. He crowned Lynesse the queen of love and beauty and they were married shortly thereafter in Lannisport. Jorah says they were happy for a fortnight until they returned home to Bear Island. Lynesse was miserable there from the start and felt disappointed in her new home in every way. Jorah did what he could to make her happy but says that his efforts were never enough for her. Jorah tells Dany that he basically went broke and disgraced himself trying to keep Lynesse happy, entertained, and bejeweled. He sold men into slavery for money to keep his wife (and himself) happy and once he learned that Ned Stark would be coming to Bear Island to deal with him, he decided to flee. He took Lynesse and fled to Lys where he sold his ship so they'd have enough gold to live. They went through the gold in six months and Jorah turned to being a sellsword after that. One day while he was off fighting as a sellsword, Lynesse was moving into the manse of some merchant prince. These days it's seems that Lynesse is the merchant prince's chief concubine. Dany is horrified by Jorah's story and asks the knight if he hates Lynesse. Jorah admits that he hates Lynesse as much as he still loves her. Jorah is all choked up and asks to be excused. He's almost out of the tent when Dany calls after him and asks him what his wife looked like. Jorah admits to Dany that Lynesse looked a bit like her. Once Dany is alone again she finally realizes that Jorah desires her sexually. She tries to imagine what it would be like to be with him but can't really picture it because his features keep turning into Drogo's in her mind. She thinks that while Jorah won't be able to have her that she'll make sure that he's able to return to his homeland and Bear Island. She feels she should be able to do that much for him. Dany dreams of the ride on her wedding night only in the dream she and Drogo are riding dragons. In the morning, Dany summons her bloodriders and tells each of them to ride out to see what lies ahead. She wants to know what her options are and she doesn't want to wander around blindly anymore. Rakharo is the first of the bloodriders to return and he says south the red waste stretches on until the shore. The only other thing of note to report were the bones of a dragon that was so massive he was easily able to ride through its jaws on his horse. Aggo returns next. He finds the ruins of two other cities and brings Dany back a bracelet with an uncut fire opal, but otherwise has nothing notable to report. Jhogo is gone for so long that the group fears he's been lost but when he eventually returns, he's accompanied by three figures. Jhogo says that he found the city of Qarth and the three who are with him say they want to look on Dany with their own eyes. One man introduces himself as Pyat Pree. His lips are blue and he claims to be a great warlock. The second person is Xaro Xhoan Daxos, a merchant prince of Qarth. The third person is a woman who is wearing a lacquered wooden mask. She speaks the Common Tongue and introduces herself as Quaithe of the Shadow. She tells Dany that they've come seeking dragons. Dany replies that they need look no further. 1 Link to comment
Lady S. December 10, 2015 Share December 10, 2015 Ah, Theon, both the most delusional PoV until Feast (with Cersei's) and the most misogynistic PoV until Feast (with Cersei's and Vic's). The other thing in this chapter that stood out to me was Theon feeling that Jon was jealous of his high birth. Something about that rings true to me and I can see that being awkward for Theon. What's harder for me to swallow from Theon's perspective is the idea that Jon was treated better than Theon because Theon was a hostage in all but name. I'm honestly on the fence about this. Theon might have felt that but I'm not sure that it was necessarily demonstrated by actions from the Starks in general. When I think about Robert's reception and how Theon had an honored place but Jon didn't, it feels like Theon has a selective memory. OTOH maybe Theon is simply referring to the closeness that Jon enjoyed with most everyone save Catelyn and Sansa--that definitely wasn't the case with Theon. Plus, Jon had been at Winterfell since he was a baby so he would have been a lot more comfortable than Theon when they were tweens. Still, his treatment of the captain's daughter was vile and he seems like he's not very nice to servants in general. ETA: I forgot to mention how fascinated I was when I realized that Theon's original plan was to hit the Lannisters at the heart and go for Casterly Rock. Interesting that Balon doesn't think they'd be able to hold the Rock but at least seems to think that it's plausible that the Ironborn could hold Winterfell. I wonder what the difference is in his mind? He cites Tywin for being intelligent and everyone knows the Lannisters have a very large family so maybe that's it. OTOH CR has the advantage of being by the sea and I would think Balon would feel that it would be a bonus. I like the early mention of Euron and Silence. I remember there is one similar mention in Jon's PoV about how even Theon had it better than him in some way, so, yeah, jealousy there and both probably resented the other as a rival for Robb's friendship. Both of them are set up as outsider wannabe-Starks, and both of them are in very unfair positions. Theon is being a classist snob insensitive to Jon's abuse by Catelyn in thinking he was better honored, though in other respects Jon was less of an outsider than Theon imo. The royal reception was a special occasion, in every day life they all ate together and to everyone but Catelyn, Jon was one of the family. Theon only had Robb's love and even that only went so far, Robb didn't see him as a brother the way Jon was. Being a guest meant he was well treated but also meant he had no right to think of Winterfell as his home, just the closest he had to one. Theon's real family was mostly awful but he did have a loving mother and sister, 9yo Theon likely cared about them even if 19yo dick Theon didn't. And he may not have loved his brothers or held grudges about Balon's first stupid rebellion, but he still first encountered Ned as one of the strangers who invaded and did battle on Pyke. I don't think Ned being more distant with Theon than his own kids was one of Theon's self-delusions. At Winterfell he was a motherless and fatherless child living in a foreign land because of his father's crimes, ostensibly equal with Robb but actually serving as a glorified lackey who had no hope of rising higher or leaving his master's service through his own achievements/coming of age, the way a normal squire/fosterling would. Jon and Theon both got a raw deal, and I don't think either one can really be definitively said to be better off than the other. Theon's plan to be Prince of Casterly Rock stuck out to me as just as unrealistic, if not more so, than his desire to be Prince of Winterfell. But Balon's plan was even more insane since he somehow thought he could hold the entire North without ever holding Winterfell. I think Balon thinks Tywin is stronger than Robb just because Tywin's older, and the World Book says Tywin was a part of the coalition to put down Balon's first rebellion. I feel like Balon's arrogant anti-greenlands prejudice means he assumes all mainlainders are weaklings until they personally fight him, and any mainlander to beat him must be an extraordinary mainlainder to play a role in defeating the mighty ironborn. Also, interesting that Balon is sure Tywin will come out on top, without pondering what that might mean for their rebellion if the Lannisters survived.Not only does he assume the Lannisters will win, he assumes he can still be a king after they do. It was stupid of him to attack someone offering an alliance, but doubly so not to seek an alliance with the Lannisters before he attacked. Instead he seeks one after the fact in Storm, where Tywin points out there's no reason to reward Balon for something he would have done anyway. Something else that stuck out to me in this chapter was how the naming theme first shows itself in Theon's disregard for those socially lower than him, "the captain" and "the captain's daughter". Any other PoV would give us their names. It's a pattern that continues with "the miller's boys" and "the miller's wife", people whose names Theon doesn't care about or can't be bothered to use/remember. I think he first recognized Jeyne Poole as the steward's girl or some such, but then he recalled her name and made it a point to remember her true name. 3 Link to comment
Avaleigh December 10, 2015 Share December 10, 2015 I forgot to comment on two things in Theon's chapter that made me laugh. The first is how pissed off he is when he isn't recognized and how he thinks he should have been wearing clothes sporting the Greyjoy sigil. Then when he dresses in the doublet for his father's benefit, he's of course sharply criticized for it. He's so lost and out of it. Then there's his arrogance in thinking that the comet is for him. (More on this in a minute with Dany.) You know he wasn't trying to convince anyone in the Stark camp that the comet was meant for him. I feel like he wouldn't have even entertained a thought like that if he'd still been with Robb. Re: Dany's first chapter-- Of course this girl is going to think that the comet is all about her. It's typical Dany and I suppose she could be right but I couldn't helpt but roll my eyes a little. My favorite thing about this chapter I think is our introduction to Quaithe. I've always assumed that something big would come with Quaithe eventually since she was included on the show so I'm looking at her stuff closely on this reread. I wonder if she's anyone we already know. Dany notes right away that she speaks to her in the Common Tongue. I liked that Dany refused to abandon Doreah in spite of prodding to do so from the others. I can't believe that Dany's only just now putting together that Jorah is in love with her. Jorah saying that Dany looks a bit like Lynesse made me wonder if the Hightowers have any Targaryen blood. I liked the indirect mention of Ser Gerold Hightower. I wonder why Lynesse wasn't given some huge dowry especially since her father gave his consent. Surely they'd know their daughter well enough to know that she has expensive tastes and she'd be bored stiff on Bear Island. I don't feel sorry for her at all but it certainly doesn't seem like Jorah or Lynesse were given much guidance when it came how ill matched they obviously were in pretty much every way. I'm surprised she'd rather be the chief concubine of some merchant prince as opposed to going back to her rich family in Westeros but maybe she doesn't feel that's an option or maybe she really does like her new life. She sounds like a terribly shallow young woman. I wonder how Dany would have responded to Jorah (and Quentyn) if they'd been handsome. Another small thing I like is that Dany doesn't yet have a favorite of her dragons. She gives each of them time and attention at this point. This early on I wonder if I knew that Drogon would be the one she'd end up riding. It's so obvious to me now why I think they other two are meant for Jon and Tyrion but I know I didn't think about any of that stuff until way down the road and initially even considered that Jon would end up with Viserion. Now, it's obvious to me that Rhaegal is meant for Jon but I don't think I felt that way until I realized about RLJ during ASoS. 1 Link to comment
nodorothyparker December 10, 2015 Share December 10, 2015 (edited) It's amusing that in every POV chapter we're given the object of the POV of course believes the comet is all about him/her. It could just be examples of how medieval and pseudo medieval read signs or prophecies, but part of me also wonders if it isn't George's sly way of reminding us that these things are completely open to interpretation and may mean everything or nothing rather than hard and fasts that we should be taking as gospel. (I mean, there are characters who say the comet is about Good King Joffrey.) You know, since we know that the signs and prophecies will only be increasing from here on out in the series. The most interesting thing about this chapter for me isn't actually about Dany at all. The story of Jorah and Lynesse is one of the few examples in the series we get of a match made for love or at least infatuation rather than a politically advantageous arranged marriage. I can't help but wonder why the Hightowers would have ever gone along with it in the first place since while as Southerners they may not have known any of the particulars of Bear Island they probably weren't completely in the dark that it wasn't one of the wealthier or more influential houses. And as we've also seen, Southerners also tend to have some not completely incorrect notions that life in the North is much harsher and runs less along their ideas of what's considered civilized. Yet they went along with this match in a society where highborns freely treat their children like commodities on the marriage market and everyone is expected to stiff upper lip it and do their duty. So in this context the fact that they quickly became disenchanted with each other to the point of Jorah beggaring himself and committing crimes bad enough to force them into exile just to keep her happy is fascinating to me. Edited December 10, 2015 by nodorothyparker 2 Link to comment
Lady S. December 10, 2015 Share December 10, 2015 (edited) Of course this girl is going to think that the comet is all about her. It's typical Dany and I suppose she could be right but I couldn't helpt but roll my eyes a little.Well, right or not, I think Dany has more reason than most to think the comet is for her. It first appeared the night she burned Drogo and birthed the dragons. She has magical heritage and prophetic dragon dreams, why not a comet to herald her dragons? The first dragons in 100+ years is a pretty big deal. I can't believe that Dany's only just now putting together that Jorah is in love with her.I imagine he tried harder to hide his lust when Drogo was alive, for his own safety. Jorah saying that Dany looks a bit like Lynesse made me wonder if the Hightowers have any Targaryen blood.They probably do, through the first Princess Rhaena Targaryen, Aegon III's half-sister/cousin. The most interesting thing about this chapter for me isn't actually about Dany at all. The story of Jorah and Lynesse is one of the few examples in the series we get of a match made for love or at least infatuation rather than a politically advantageous arranged marriage. I can't help but wonder why the Hightowers would have ever gone along with it in the first place since while as Southerners they may not have known any of the particulars of Bear Island they probably weren't completely in the dark that it wasn't one of the wealthier or more influential houses. And as we've also seen, Southerners also tend to have some not completely incorrect notions that life in the North is much harsher and runs less along their ideas of what's considered civilized. Yet they went along with this match in a society where highborns freely treat their children like commodities on the marriage market and everyone is expected to stiff upper lip it and do their duty. So in this context the fact that they quickly became disenchanted with each other to the point of Jorah beggaring himself and committing crimes bad enough to force them into exile just to keep her happy is fascinating to me. Maybe the fact that she didn't return to Westeros means her family washed their hands of her when she wanted to marry Jorah. The wiki says she was the 8th of 10 children, with 5 older sisters. The good dynastic matches and big dowries had probably already been used up with her older siblings, so Lynesse was just an expensive extra offspring they needed to unload. Edited December 10, 2015 by Lady S. 3 Link to comment
Avaleigh December 11, 2015 Share December 11, 2015 Well, right or not, I think Dany has more reason than most to think the comet is for her. It first appeared the night she burned Drogo and birthed the dragons. She has magical heritage and prophetic dragon dreams, why not a comet to herald her dragons? The first dragons in 100+ years is a pretty big deal. I imagine he tried harder to hide his lust when Drogo was alive, for his own safety. They probably do, through the first Princess Rhaena Targaryen, Aegon III's half-sister/cousin. Maybe the fact that she didn't return to Westeros means her family washed their hands of her when she wanted to marry Jorah. The wiki says she was the 8th of 10 children, with 5 older sisters. The good dynastic matches and big dowries had probably already been used up with her older siblings, so Lynesse was just an expensive extra offspring they needed to unload. I agree with your points about Dany and the comet, I think coming off of reading similar thoughts from Theon is what made me roll my eyes. You have egomaniacs like Theon and Joffrey (and Stannis) all thinking that the comet has something to do with them so it's interesting to me that Dany is in that group. Again though, I agree that she has more reason than anyone to think that the comet is a sign. I agree too that Jorah was probably more mindful of being obvious about his attraction to Dany. Jorah makes it sound like Leyton Hightower was onboard with the union. Lynesse has one older sister who never married so I'm not sure it was a case of not wanting a spinster on their hands. Lynesse sounds like she was quite young when she married Jorah. Despite her vanity and selfish nature she also sounds like she could have made a better match. If she'd been born years earlier she seems like she could have been a candidate to catch the eye of a Targaryen. True though that it seems her siblings married into prominent houses in the Reach including Tyrell, Rowan, and Redwyne so maybe there weren't as many options for her. Link to comment
benteen December 11, 2015 Share December 11, 2015 (edited) Great point about Theon never considering the fact that if his father already had a fleet built, that meant he was likely to invade regardless of whether his son was in the hands of the Starks. You know, it is odd that Lord Hightower would have agreed to allow his daughter to marry the Lord of a distant and relatively poor House in the North. Jorah had done himself great honor during the Greyjoy Rebellion and had one the joust at Lannisport (I liked hearing about that story) but still, these people are elitist snobs who, as Avaleigh points out, treat their daughters like commodities. If Tyrion had been considered an "acceptable" match in Westerosi society (ie not been born a dwarf) I can easily see a Lannister/Hightower marriage. The Hightowers may no long be a ruling family but they are old, rich, powerful and respectable enough to fit that bill. I'd still love to know how Jorah's slave-dealing was discovered. GRRM has never revealed that detail. Either the slavers were captured and some piece of evidence was discovered or one of Jorah's household members (a maestar or a master-at-arms perhaps) sent a letter to Ned. Perhaps one of the She-Bears? I assume Ned would have had to have had some proof for him to take the actions he did. It could be he got the information and gave Jorah notice to come to Winterfell to answer the charges against him. When he didn't show up, Ned took the voyage to Bear Island himself. Of course, Ned is such a moron when it comes to these things I can see him sending a raven to Jorah saying that "I'm coming to behead you, don't go anywhere" and then being completely SHOCKED when he arrives and finds that Jorah is long gone. It is interesting to note that despite needing the money, Jorah never sold Longclaw. We learn later that Tywin was willing to pay a lot of money to acquire a Valaryon sword for his family. Though I wonder if that's just something society dictated Jorah couldn't do if he were to maintain any kind of credibility. A Lord selling his family's sword, a Valaryon sword no less, would indicate the desperate financial desperation that Jorah was in. Edited December 11, 2015 by benteen Link to comment
Constantinople December 11, 2015 Share December 11, 2015 (edited) And to be even more fair to Dany about the comet From a few chapters ago Bran I ...Maester Luwin suggests that the wolves are howling at the comet because they're mistaking it for the moon. When Bran tells Osha of Luwin's interpretation, she laughs out loud and says that Luwin has it all wrong. She says that comet is a sign of the Fire and Blood that is going to come. She also says that direwolves have remembered things that "grey" men have forgotten. Old Nan can't even see the comet but she's sure that it means "Dragons". Not that either one of them knows about Daenerys, but they both have interpretations that fit her with her much more than Stannis or Theon. Edited December 11, 2015 by Constantinople 1 Link to comment
Lady S. December 11, 2015 Share December 11, 2015 I'd still love to know how Jorah's slave-dealing was discovered. GRRM has never revealed that detail. Either the slavers were captured and some piece of evidence was discovered or one of Jorah's household members (a maestar or a master-at-arms perhaps) sent a letter to Ned. Perhaps one of the She-Bears? I assume Ned would have had to have had some proof for him to take the actions he did. It could be he got the information and gave Jorah notice to come to Winterfell to answer the charges against him. When he didn't show up, Ned took the voyage to Bear Island himself. Of course, Ned is such a moron when it comes to these things I can see him sending a raven to Jorah saying that "I'm coming to behead you, don't go anywhere" and then being completely SHOCKED when he arrives and finds that Jorah is long gone. The slavers being caught sounds most likely, unless the poachers' family members did go to Ned. I don't think Jorah's family betrayed him, Maege blames Lynesse for Jorah's downfall and doesn't seem to have anything against him. To be fair to Ned, trusting Cersei with no back-up plan was very dumb, but there's nothing to suggest he habitually gave a heads-up to criminals. He only did so with Cersei for the sake of her children, who hadn't committed any crimes. Summoning Jorah to Winterfell to answer for his crimes or prove his innocence makes more sense, since the word of slavers or whoever wouldn't be enough proof. It's pretty telling about Theon that he's one of only two PoVs to claim the comet as their own. The other one actually has reason to, while Theon was just being Theon, ridiculously overconfident to cover up his insecurity and willfully blind to the reality around him. 2 Link to comment
benteen December 11, 2015 Share December 11, 2015 I'm sure Victarion probably claimed the comet as his own too. He's not that bright. 1 Link to comment
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