Avaleigh September 29, 2015 Share September 29, 2015 Sansa I It's the morning of Joffrey's name day and Sansa is watching the red comet from a window in her room. Ser Arys Oakheart has been assigned to escort her to the tourney being held in Joffrey's honor and Sansa decides to ask the knight what he thinks the comet means. Ser Arys says it looks as though the gods have raised a banner in Joffrey's honor and claims that the smallfolk have been calling it King Joffrey's comet. Sansa says that she's heard servants referring to the comet as a Dragon's Tail and Ser Arys responds that this must be because Joffrey sits where Aegon the Conqueror once did. He also points out that crimson is one of the colors of House Lannister so that's even more reason to think the comet was sent in Joffrey's honor. The idea that the gods might have sent a magnificent comet to honor Joffrey is more than Sansa can stand and she wonders to herself if the gods really would be so cruel. She also thinks that since Joffrey is a Baratheon that the comet should probably be gold rather than red. Ser Arys compliments Sansa's appearance and she thinks about how she's taken great care to look beautiful in order to please Joffrey. Her gown covers the most recent bruises she's received at the hands of another member of the Kingsguard. It seems that Joffrey ordered Sansa to be beaten after learning that Robb is now the King in the North. Ser Arys is Sansa's preferred member of the Kingsguard and she thinks that if she has to have one of them following her around then she would rather it be him. Ser Arys speaks to her cordially and he's mostly courteous save when he too is forced to beat her. Unlike the other knights of the Kingsguard, Ser Arys at least protested at being ordered to hit Sansa and when he does finally give in he doesn't hit her brutally the way that the others do. The Hound is never asked to beat Sansa and Sansa feels that he doesn't obey Joffrey without question the way that the others do. As they head downstairs Sansa asks Ser Arys who he thinks will win the day's honors. Ser Arys names himself but points out that the list of participants isn't going to be impressive the way that it was at the last tourney. The last tourney had been different, Sansa reflected. King Robert had staged it in her father's honor. High lords and fabled champions had come from all over the realm to compete, and the whole city had turned out to watch. She remembered the splendor of it: the field of pavilions along the river with a knight's shield hung before each door, the long rows of silken pennants waving in the wind, the gleam of sunlight on bright steel and gilded spurs. The days had rung to the sounds of trumpets and pounding hooves, and the nights had been full of feasts and song. Those had been the most magical days of her life, but they seemed a memory from another age now. Robert Baratheon was dead, and her father as well, beheaded for a traitor on the steps of the Great Sept of Baelor. Now there were three kings in the land, and war raged beyond the Trident while the city filled with desperate men. Small wonder that they had to hold Joff's tournament behind the thick stone walls of the Red Keep. Sansa wonders if the Queen will attend and thinks that she feels safer when Cersei is around to keep a leash on Joffrey. Ser Arys tells her that Cersei will be in a meeting with the other members of the small council. Ser Arys tells Sansa that Cersei is furious that Tywin has refused to obey the command to come to King's Landing with his army. It seems that Ser Arys is going to say more but a bunch of Lannister guards head past so he falls silent. Sansa thinks about how Ser Arys likes to gossip but only when he thinks he's sure no one is listening. Most of the cool people of Westeros seem to be absent from King's Landing and only half of the seats are filled with spectators. Sansa is brought to the royal box where Joffrey is seated along with his siblings. The Hound announces Sansa's presence and Princess Myrcella gives a shy wave before Prince Tommen races over to Sansa to give her the news that he's going to be able to ride in the tourney. Sansa thinks that Tommen reminds her of Bran and this makes her wish that she could be safe with her brother at Winterfell. Sansa tells Tommen that she fears for the life of his opponent and Joffrey walks over to tell her that Tommen's opponent will be made out of straw. Joffrey tells Sansa that he's pleased she's wearing the stones he got for her. Sansa thanks him and feels relieved that Joffrey seems to be in one of his more gallant moods. Joffrey orders Sansa to sit next to him and starts telling her about the death of the Beggar King. For one horrible moment Sansa thinks that Joffrey means Robb but soon learns that Joffrey is referring to Viserys Targaryen. Joff is getting a kick out of the fact that Viserys was crowned with molten gold and says that it's almost as good as if Robb were to die being attacked by wolves. He tells Sansa that he's going to challenge Robb to single combat and Sansa responds that this is something that she'd like to see. Joffrey can't decide whether or not Sansa is mocking him. Joffrey isn't entering the tourney today because Cersei told him that it would be inappropriate given that it's being held in his honor. Joffrey thinks he would have been champion otherwise and asks the Hound to agree with him. The Hound seems like he's trying to keep from laughing and says there isn't any reason why Joffrey shouldn't be champion considering how poor the showing is for this tourney. Remembering that the Hound won the tourney that was held in honor of her father, Sansa asks him if he's going to participate in the day's events. The Hound tells her that it wouldn't be worth putting his armor on for because there aren't any worthy challengers. Joffrey suggests that the day's champion be forced to fight the Hound to the death and Sansa thinks about how fond in general Joffrey is of making men fight each other to death. The Hound tells Joffrey that he'd only have one less knight on his side and Sansa thinks about how the Hound refuses to take a knight's vows because of his hatred of his brother. When they settle into their seats Joffrey takes Sansa's hand and she thinks about how this gesture would have delighted her once upon a time. Now all she can think of is how Joffrey answered her pleas for mercy by having her father decapitated. She's repulsed by his touch but she knows better than to show it. The Redwyne twins are "guests" of the Queen's and Hobbar Redwyne is up first against Ser Meryn Trant. Trant ends up knocking Hobbar into the dirt during the second pass. Next up is Ser Balon Swann vs. Morros of House Slynt. Sansa hopes that Ser Balon kills Morros because of Janos' role in Ned's beheading. Her mind goes back to Janos picking up her father's severed head while she's screaming and crying. Ser Balon easily unseats the inexperienced Morros and Sansa briefly wonders if the gods heard her prayer after Morros ends up getting his foot caught in a stirrup as he falls. The kid ends up being dragged along as his head gets banged around. He's bleeding but it seems as though he'll live. Horas Redwyne is up next vs. some old guy who apparently isn't worth naming. Horas easily wins and Joffrey is starting to get bored because the competition isn't the least bit exciting. Sansa is worried about Joffrey being bored because she knows that any little thing might set his crazy ass off. A servant of Littlefinger's named Lothor Brune is set to go up against Ser Dontos Hollard. Brune is mounted and ready but Ser Dontos is MIA. When Dontos finally arrives he's drunk and half dressed and making a general spectacle of himself. Nearly everybody thinks it's hilarious save Sansa and Joffrey. Ser Dontos stumbles around for awhile before giving up and shouts at some person to go and get him some more wine. This makes Joffrey decide to order a cask of wine to be brought forth so that Ser Dontos can be drowned in it. Without thinking, Sansa gasps and tells Joffrey that he can't kill Ser Dontos. Sansa begins to panic and wonders what the hell she could possibly have been thinking to dare to speak in this way and tries to cover for her mistake by saying that she only meant it would be bad luck for Joffrey to kill a man on his nameday. Joffrey looks at Sansa and tells her that he knows she's lying. He says that he ought to have her drowned in the wine with Ser Dontos if she cares for the man so much. The panicky feeling is rising and Sansa tells Joffrey that she really just meant that Dontos shouldn't be killed on His Grace's nameday and says that Joffrey can always kill the knight tomorrow if he's still wants to. Joffrey glares at Sansa and Sansa believes that Joffrey still thinks she's lying. The Hound speaks up at this point and tells Joffrey that Sansa is telling the truth about it being bad luck for a person to commit murder on their nameday. Joffrey says that he'll have foolish Dontos killed the following day and Sansa suggests to her betrothed that he make Dontos his new fool as opposed to killing him. She flatters Joffrey and tells him that he was clever to have seen what a good idea this will be. Joffrey studies Sansa for a moment and tells her that maybe she isn't as stupid as his mother is always saying she is. Ser Dontos is grateful for being spared and thanks for Joffrey and Sansa before being taken away by Lannister guardsmen. When Joffrey is asked if they should find somebody else to face Lothor Brune, Joffrey announces that the tourney is over. He wants everybody out of his sight. Tommen is upset that the tourney is over since he hasn't been able to ride yet. Joffrey tells his brother that he doesn't care what he wants but Tommen persists and even Myrcella backs him up. Joffrey actually has the nerve to mock Tommen for using the 'Mother said' excuse and tells his eight year old brother not to be childish. Myrcella replies that they're children so they're sort of supposed to be childish, and the Hound laughs at this and tells Joffrey that his sister has him there. Joffrey finally relents and allows Tommen to face the straw man. The straw man has been decorated with an antlered helm and Tommen is all excited as he faces his opponent. He shouts "Casterly Rock!" and charges toward the quintain. He does a fine job of hitting it but then the thing ends up spinning around and hitting him on his head so that he's knocked off of his saddle and onto the ground. The crowd ends up laughing and nobody laughs harder than Joffrey. Myrcella is concerned for Tommen and runs out to go and help him. Sansa tells Joffrey that he should go with Myrcella because Tommen might be hurt. Joffrey shrugs his shoulders and makes it plain that he doesn't care if his brother is injured. Sansa isn't getting it and tells Joffrey that he should help Tommen up and tell him that he did well. Joffrey doesn't understand and says that Tommen didn't do well because he was knocked into the dirt. The Hound points out that Tommen has the courage to try again and Sansa wishes that Tommen were the elder son and not Joffrey. She thinks she wouldn't mind marrying Tommen. Suddenly, one of the gates of the Red Keep is being opened and soon Tyrion Lannister ends up riding through along with his men. Sansa thinks the men look like something right out of one of Old Nan's stories. Sansa thinks that Tyrion looks just as grotesque as the last time she saw him. Myrcella and Tommen are both happy to see their Uncle Tyrion and rush over to greet him. Sansa is surprised when she realizes that Tommen and Tyrion are the same height. Tyrion bows to Joffrey and Joffrey greets him coldly unlike his two siblings. Tyrion points out Joffrey's disrespect and the Hound interjects to say that he'd heard Tyrion was dead. Tyrion has no interest in talking to Sandor and tells him that he was speaking with the King. Myrcella tells Tyrion that she's glad he isn't dead. Tyrion tells his niece that he's happy about that too. Tyrion turns to Sansa and tells her that he's sorry for her losses. She wonders to herself if Tyrion is mocking her. Tyrion tells Joffrey that he's sorry for his loss too and Joffrey clearly has no idea what Tyrion is talking about. Tyrion reminds Joffrey that he's recently lost his father, the previous King. Sansa thinks about how a lady's armor is her courtesy and apologizes to Tyrion for her mother taking him captive. Tyrion replies that a lot of people ended up being sorry that Catelyn abducted him and says that before he's done more may be sorrier still. Tyrion asks Joffrey where he might find Cersei and Joffrey tells him that she's meeting with the small council. He tells Tyrion that his brother Jaime keeps losing battles and has been taken by the Starks. He also tells Tyrion that Sansa's brother has declared himself to be a king. Tyrion smirks and tells Joffrey that all sorts of people are callings themselves kings these days. Joffrey isn't sure if Tyrion is making fun of him or not but decides to change the subject and ask his uncle about what gift he ended up getting him for his nameday. Tyrion tells Joffrey that he's brought him the gift of his wits and Joffrey says that he'd sooner have a gift like Robb Stark's head. Joffrey deliberately looks over at Sansa as he says this and then orders his siblings to leave with him. Sansa is left alone with Tyrion and his men so she makes conversation by asking him about his injured arm. He tells her that a northern man gave her the injury and then asks her if it's the death of her father that has her so sad. Sansa robotically responds that all of her family are traitors and that she's loyal to Joffrey. Tyrion says that she's as loyal as a deer who is surrounded by wolves and Sansa corrects him by whispering that it's more like being surrounded by lions. Tyion tells her that he's only a little lion and that he vows not to hurt her. He excuses himself by telling her that he has urgent business for the Queen and the small council. Sansa watched him walk off, his body swaying heavily from side to side with every step, like something from a grotesquerie. He speaks more gently than Joffrey, she thought, but the queen spoke to me gently too. He's still a Lannister, her brother and Joff's uncle, and no friend. Once she had loved Prince Joffrey with all her heart, and admired and trusted his mother, the queen. They had repaid that love and trust with her father's head. Sansa would never make that mistake again. Link to comment
vibeology September 29, 2015 Share September 29, 2015 I love Sansa's chapters in this book. I feel like in GoT, Martin really went over the top in his Arya/Sansa contrasts but now on her own in King's Landing, she really gets to shine. She reads Oakheart perfectly and it's a shame she isn't given a chance to use her observations to her advantage. She also manages to get a few over Joffrey. In addition the better relationships she's building with Tommen and Myrcella are smart since one day she could benefit from them. As readers we know how it's going to pan out but it shows that Sansa at least is doing the most she can to forge friendships where she can. The Dontos thing really shows that she's Ned's daughter. She acts because it's right without thinking through the consequences and assumes that people will do the good and just thing. Unlike Ned, she has the sense to lie and get along with those in power to save her life. Finally, her thoughts about Tyrion explain quite nicely her feelings on their future relationship. She's been burned by Lannister kindness before and refuses to be fooled again. Can't blame her considering. I would probably call Sansa my favourite character and I remember on first read that this was the chapter that really won me over. She's flawed and makes mistakes but you can see her learning and growing every second. I never want to see her be the perfect mastermind. I want her to keep her dreams, her kindness and her courtesy while still looking out for herself and hopefully one day her family. 4 Link to comment
DigitalCount September 29, 2015 Share September 29, 2015 Man, Sansa is such a boss. She takes the measure of Tyrion perfectly there, and she's proven right later on. I can't believe I missed that the first time. It's so important for her to remember that no one there is on her side. I like how the Hound started as this terrifying guy who gets the layers peeled back to reveal a human being, especially with the contrast with Joffrey who's just layer after layer of rot down to the center. He really is a terrible guy, completely insane and unfit for ruling. If only Tommen had been son #1... 3 Link to comment
nodorothyparker September 29, 2015 Share September 29, 2015 The bloom's really off the rose for poor Sansa here. All her earlier romanticism about Joffrey and life at court is just gone and she's doing her best just to not get beaten or make things any worse. I'll give her credit for handling the little monster as well as she does, mostly staying one step ahead of him mentally and verbally. There is a nice bit of foreshadowing there for Tyrion and Sansa that I completely missed my first read through. This is another one of those chapters that show that for all the talk about how great and honorable the Kingsguard is supposed to be, they participate in some pretty awful things whether actively or passively. Here, they're grown men beating on a 11-year-old girl who poses absolutely no threat to the king or anyone else and Arys Oakheart gets to be the least bad because he doesn't hit her as hard. It's noteworthy that the Hound is apparently left out of all this, probably because he'd tell Joffers to go fuck himself. I also love the Hound snarking on Joffers and speaking up for both Sansa and Tommen. The Hound is another one of those characters I like a lot because for all his hardness and cynicism, there's a human being with decent instincts and sense of right in there. 2 Link to comment
Avaleigh September 29, 2015 Share September 29, 2015 I really enjoyed this chapter. Out of all of the Sansa chapters that we've gone through so far this is my favorite apart from the first tourney. I liked seeing the contrast between the two tourneys. It's funny that Joffrey seems like he was still expecting it to be better even though he'd been warned that only the "gnats" will be participating. I didn't remember the Redwyne twins being hostages at KL. I liked the detail of Arys being willing to gossip when he thinks it's safe. No wonder he's the guy who ends up getting sent over with Myrcella. I wouldn't be surprised if Myrcella asked since Arys would have been the most likable of the Kingsguard for her to choose from. Myrcella and Tommen have always been sweet kids. I love the way they run to Tyrion and greet him warmly. Joffrey's just an asshole with everyone. Interesting how he referred to Jaime as Tyrion's brother. Like Jaime isn't even his uncle or something. He totally wants to distance himself for some reason. Tommen shouts Casterly Rock and not Storm's End. Another hint of how much of a Lannister he really is. I love how he gets up and is ready to try again. I also loved the Hound pointing that out and even Sansa not holding Tommen being a Lannister against him. She still recognizes that he's a good kid. Interesting that Myrcella is still shy around Sansa just as she was in the previous book. She isn't some arrogant little girl who thinks she's better than everyone. Arya was basically hard on Myrcella and dismissive of her for no reason other than the fact that she's a girly girl like Sansa. When Sansa was thinking that the gods ought to have sent Joffrey a gold colored comet I kept thinking that a gold comet could be twisted into being for Joffrey as well. Gold is one of the Lannister colors too, gold is associated with the Rock, Joffrey has golden hair, etc. There are so many times where people are making fun of Joffrey and he either doesn't get it or isn't quite sure. Like Sansa being bold enough to say that she'd like to see Joffrey face her brother in single combat. Or the Hound telling Joffrey, 'Sure, I think you could be champion against this lot'. (We don't ever get to see Joffrey attempt to fight under any conditions, do we? I sort of wish that he and Robb had sparred a bit back at Winterfell only for Joffrey to make up some excuse for why they shouldn't continue after seeing that he's outmatched.) Interesting that Joffrey seems to know better than to ask the Hound to beat Sansa. You'd think this would be something that would irritate Joffrey since he wants everyone to bow down and obey whatever he says. 1 Link to comment
nodorothyparker September 29, 2015 Share September 29, 2015 (edited) I love the noting of how sparsely attended this tourney is and how poor the competition is compared to the last one. That couldn't have anything to do with there being a war on or maybe word getting out that the king is a psychopath who seems to look for any excuse to make random people fight to the death, I'm sure. Tyrion with the younger kids is a nice little character moment and a reminder that that Lannisters aren't all black and white terrible, despite what Sansa justifiably thinks and being mostly painted that way at this point in the series. I've never read Joffrey as having any inkling that he should have reason to want to distance himself from Jaime. He isn't smart enough. My sense has been that Tyrion is naturally suited to be an uncle to kids who haven't learned to disparage him for being a dwarf yet. He's also got no reason not to be the doting uncle. Even at this stage before we get Jaime's take on it, it makes sense that it would have been prudent for him to be the more distant disinterested uncle. I do like how in every POV chapter, people are able to ascribe their own meaning to the comet and how it must be especially for them. It makes me think about reading medieval history and how rulers always took eclipses and other astronomical events as confirmation or condemnation of their actions. Edited September 29, 2015 by nodorothyparker Link to comment
Avaleigh September 29, 2015 Share September 29, 2015 Tyrion with the younger kids is a nice little character moment and a reminder that that Lannisters aren't all black and white terrible, despite what Sansa justifiably thinks and being mostly painted that way at this point in the series. I've never read Joffrey as having any inkling that he should have reason to want to distance himself from Jaime. I actually think that Joffrey wanted to distance himself from Jaime because he sees Jaime as a loser not because he suspects that Jaime is his father. That being said, there was a moment in the first book where Joffrey seemed disturbed and realized that there was something deeply wrong about the marriage between his parents. I think it's when Robert gets drunk at the tourney. I can't recall the specifics but even dreamy Sansa picked up on it before she became all disillusioned with everything. For me personally, I don't really think that Sansa is justified in thinking that all of the Lannisters are monsters because she's seen for herself that it simply isn't true. Most of them are all right IMO. To me there are really only three who are totally horrible and that's out of a huge family. Meanwhile the supposedly near perfect, good guy Starks definitely have their share of bad apples. 2 Link to comment
nodorothyparker September 29, 2015 Share September 29, 2015 (edited) Fair point. Joffers is bitching in that scene about Jaime losing too many battles and getting himself captured. My sense of it is just that they've never really had much of a relationship for him to think anything else. I vaguely remember the moment you're talking about at the dinner after the tourney but I can't remember specifics either. From her point of view, I can absolutely understand why Sansa thinks the Lannisters are all terrible and she needs to keep her guard up against them. Her entire household was slaughtered. Her father died a traitor's death and she's reminded nearly every day that her brother will follow if they ever get their hands on him. She's got Kingsguard beating her on their orders. And she hasn't even met Tywin yet. Tyrion is being kind to her here, but so was Cersei at one point and we know how that turned out for her. She'd be foolish not to wary. The Lannisters are actually my favorite family of the series because they're just so huge in everything they do. They're hugely layered and complicated and haunted to the point of almost being operatic. They make no small gestures. And they always bring the snark. But with the exception of Tyrion, we really haven't seen a ton of that at this point in the series yet. Edited September 29, 2015 by nodorothyparker 2 Link to comment
Avaleigh September 29, 2015 Share September 29, 2015 (edited) Fair point. Joffers is bitching in that scene about Jaime losing too many battles and getting himself captured. My sense of it is just that they've never really had much of a relationship for him to think anything else. I vaguely remember the moment you're talking about at the dinner after the tourney but I can't remember specifics either. From her point of view, I can absolutely understand why Sansa thinks the Lannisters are all terrible and she needs to keep her guard up against them. Her entire household was slaughtered. Her father died a traitor's death and she's reminded nearly every day that her brother will follow if they ever get their hands on him. She's got Kingsguard beating her on their orders. And she hasn't even met Tywin yet. Tyrion is being kind to her here, but so was Cersei at one point and we know how that turned out for her. She'd be foolish not to wary. The Lannisters are actually my favorite family of the series because they're just so huge in everything they do. They're hugely layered and complicated and haunted to the point of almost being operatic. They make no small gestures. And they always bring the snark. But with the exception of Tyrion, we really haven't seen a ton of that at this point in the series yet. I agree that Sansa has every reason to permanently have her guard up. I meant more that I don't agree with mentally categorizing them all as monsters when she sees for herself that it isn't true. Not to let her guard down with the Lannisters who seem cool, but to not think of them as demons so that her reality begins to get skewed. I think it's partially because of this skewed reality that she doesn't allow herself to linger too long on what sort of a person Littlefinger is underneath it all. Littlefinger isn't a Lannister so that automatically puts him above people like Tyrion and we of course know that Littlefinger is a lot more dangerous to Sansa overall. It isn't that I expect Sansa to know this, it's just that I don't feel like that sort of blanket style thinking is helpful to her or her situation and in some ways may even be making things worse for her. One line I hope that she'll eventually be able to get past is when she says that she'll teach her children to hate all Lannisters thereby ensuring that the hate will continue into the next generation. I'd love for her to change her mentality about something like this but accept that it isn't likely. Edited September 29, 2015 by Avaleigh 2 Link to comment
nodorothyparker September 29, 2015 Share September 29, 2015 Oh God. Sansa and Littlefinger just make my head ache. Oh you loved my mother. How did that work out for any member of my family? It'll be interesting to see how or if any these characters' attitudes about the members of other houses hold up in the end. Provided they aren't all white walkers or eaten by dragons. Link to comment
benteen September 29, 2015 Share September 29, 2015 This was an excellent chapter for the characters involved and a great re-introduction to Tyrion. I like that Sansa liked Tommen and wished that he was the one she was betrothed to. The Redwyne twins being hostages is one of those little book details which actually comes in handy for the plot later. Joffrey seems quite amused at what happened to Viserys. It's always intriguing when someone in King's Landing acknowledges Dany. The only time I remember Joffrey getting into "action" was a comment about him leading a sortie against peasants in King's Landing. Joffrey loves to fight against the weak and those who can't fight back but always backs out of a real fight. He truly is a paper lion. 2 Link to comment
John Potts September 29, 2015 Share September 29, 2015 I tend to think Sansa over compensates from her initial "Trust everyone!" (essentially) stance to a "Trust nobody!" (except, unfortunately, Littlefinger) - which serves her about as well, OK, it means she keeps alive, but it means she remains permanently at the mercy of events, which is probably why many people find her a frustrating character. 1 Link to comment
SeanC September 29, 2015 Share September 29, 2015 I tend to think Sansa over compensates from her initial "Trust everyone!" (essentially) stance to a "Trust nobody!" (except, unfortunately, Littlefinger) - which serves her about as well, OK, it means she keeps alive, but it means she remains permanently at the mercy of events, which is probably why many people find her a frustrating character. She doesn't immediately go to "trust nobody"; to the extent that she gets there, it's because she keeps getting burned. Joffrey and Cersei's betrayal (and her earlier attempts to apologize for Jaime, etc.) lead to her refusing to trust any Lannister -- which is smart, since their interests are not the same. But in ACOK and ASOS she's far from unwilling to trust people, she just tries to evaluate how trustworthy they are. She trusts Dontos, and she trusts Margaery and co., and she wants to trust Baelish and Lysa. She gets burned on all those occasions, and isolated up in the Eyrie she miserably concludes that she really has no alternative but to stay with Baelish, who she doesn't trust at first; gradually she becomes more admiring of him over the course of AFFC, as he continue to wear her down. Link to comment
netlyon2 September 30, 2015 Share September 30, 2015 (edited) I think that Sansa remains aware that Tyrion (and possibly other Lannisters) aren't monsters, but she's not willing to make herself vulnerable to them because she's learned from experience. She certainly differentiates between Tyrion and Joffrey during the Blackwater, where she throws up a prayer for one and actually walks out on the prayers for the other . I think her relationship with Tyrion is characterized by her (wise) decision to keep him at arm's length, as she does with most people (particularly anyone named Lannister). She doesn't bear him ill will, but she's not going to get pulled in. Honestly, Tyrion's moping and self-pity about her armor of courtesy was one of the most off-putting things about him in Swords. It's also worth noting that Sansa hasn't really had a choice about trusting Littlefinger. She didn't even know about his involvement in her escape until she was on a boat in the middle of the harbor, surrounded by his men. Then, he immediately killed Dontos and confessed to engineering her escape from Day 1. He takes her to his home and then to the Eyrie, both places pretty much isolated and under his control. The only person whom she could go to for support against him would be Lysa, and she learns pretty quickly how . . . devoted her aunt is to Petyr. Once Lysa's gone out the Moon Door, Sansa not only loses that questionable ally, but is also vulnerable to the same fate as Marillion--accused, tried, convicted, and executed via Littlefinger's machinations. That's in addition to the fact that there's a price on her head and a crazy queen who is determined to see her killed slowly and painfully. Our girl has, like, zero options. SeanC, one of the things that I really love about the Alayne chapters is how she remains aware that Petyr is not trustworthy. Even in her admiration and gratitude (which, to give the devil his due, are both earned to a certain extent), she is wary of his creep factor and general sliminess. Her time in KL taught her to read people's moods quickly (as many victims of abuse learn to do), and her AFFC chapters show her determining if she's dealing with "Petyr" or "Littlefinger." So, I don't see it as increasing trust; I see it as survival instinct. Even with the conflict over control of Robin, she's surrounded by people who are in Littlefinger's pocket. Sorry if I did too much spoiler-tagging; I thought I might be getting into too much detail from later on in the books. Edited September 30, 2015 by netlyon2 2 Link to comment
Holmbo September 30, 2015 Share September 30, 2015 You're allowed to get into details about later books since this is a reread. 2 Link to comment
Lady S. September 30, 2015 Share September 30, 2015 (edited) There were a couple first time readers in the last thread at one point. But this is a tv forum, so I don't think anyone would come here not having read the books or watched the show, meaning I think it only makes sense to use spoiler tags for characters or events that haven't appeared on the show yet, or happened in a significantly different way. One line I hope that she'll eventually be able to get past is when she says that she'll teach her children to hate all Lannisters thereby ensuring that the hate will continue into the next generation. I'd love for her to change her mentality about something like this but accept that it isn't likely. It's not like this is a Hatfield/McCoy or Blackwood/Bracken situation where there's really a risk of continuing bloodfeud. The Starks live hundreds of miles from Casterly Rock and King's Landing and only got involved with the Lannisters through Ned becoming Hand. If Winterfell is re-claimed and the Lannisters lose, the next generation of Starks can live more Lannister-free lifestyle and it won't matter so much how they feel about them. I don't think there's much chance of Sansa becoming the way King Bobby was about the Targs or raising her kids to be like the Sand Snakes. I think family rivalries in this world are closer to political partisanship or nationalism, saying you hate a whole House just means a general bias, not hating every member without question and wishing them dead. Not that prejudice is a healthy mentality, but in Sansa's case, thinking secret thoughts of hate is her only means of resistance. Tommen shouts Casterly Rock and not Storm's End. Another hint of how much of a Lannister he really is. No doubt the kid felt closer to that side of the family, but I think being at war with the Baratheons has a lot to do with this identification as well. Storm's End belongs to his traitor uncle Renly and the quintain is even done up with stag antlers in Renly's honor, so even though it was the seat of his "father" first, I can see why Tommen would get confused and instead shout the castle of his grandfather, who's out there defending them from the rebels. Edited September 30, 2015 by Lady S. 2 Link to comment
Holmbo September 30, 2015 Share September 30, 2015 Shouldn't the royal family have their own battle call? It seems weird that king Bob would call "Storms end" when, for example, fighting against the Iron born. Perhaps he could call "Red Keep". What did the Targs cry in battle I wonder. 1 Link to comment
benteen September 30, 2015 Share September 30, 2015 Shouldn't the royal family have their own battle call? It seems weird that king Bob would call "Storms end" when, for example, fighting against the Iron born. Perhaps he could call "Red Keep". What did the Targs cry in battle I wonder. Can't go wrong with "Fire and Blood." 1 Link to comment
John Potts September 30, 2015 Share September 30, 2015 benteen Can't go wrong with "Fire and Blood." ...except it may make readers think of the Salvation Army (their motto is "Blood and Fire")! Not perhaps the most fearsome image you want to put in the reader's mind. 1 Link to comment
Avaleigh October 4, 2015 Share October 4, 2015 (edited) Tyrion I Tyrion is trying to go into the chambers of the small council but Ser Mandon Moore is holding his ground and tells Tyrion that Cersei gave orders that the council was not to be disturbed for any reason. Tyrion tries to joke with Ser Mandon at first and says that he'd only be a small disturbance and even shows the knight a letter with Tywin's seal as proof that he's there on business for the Hand of the King. Ser Mandon is treating Tyrion like he's stupid or something, and repeats that the Queen doesn't wish for the council to be disturbed. Tyrion thinks that his guards Bronn and Timmett would likely be able to take Moore out but he feels it probably wouldn't look very good if he had one of his guards kill one of Joffrey's sworn protectors on his first day back in town. Eventually, after some talk of the dead knight Ser Vardis, Moore is persuaded to allow Tyrion to enter the room alone. The five members of the council stop talking the moment Tyrion enters the room and Cersei greets him unaffectionately and asks him what he's doing there. Tyrion smiles and basically tells Cersei that he can see where Joffrey picked up his rudeness from. Tyrion informs his sister that he's there to deliver a letter from their father. Cersei reads the note and is furious to learn that Tyrion has been sent in Tywin's place to rule as Hand of the King. Tyrion will serve in the position until Tywin is able to return to the capital. Pycelle thinks that a welcome for Tyrion is in order and Janos Slynt comes across as smug in Tyrion's opinion and tells Tyrion that the council is in need of help with all of the rioting in the streets not to mention the 'grim omen' of the comet. Cersei is irritated when she hears Janos talking about how there's rioting in the streets and reminds him that he's the one in charge of the gold cloaks, so getting this rioting under control is his responsibility. Cersei tells Tyrion that he'd be of more use on the field of battle but Tyrion tells her that he's definitely over fighting in the field and says that the only thing worse than fighting again would be if he were forced to enjoy the hospitality he received during his time in the Vale. When Tyrion starts breaking down why he isn't fond of the soldier's life, Littlefinger laughs and tells Tyrion that he's a man after his own heart. Tyrion smiles at Littlefinger and remembers the Dagger and thinks to himself that he and Lord Baelish are going to have to have a chat about that sometime soon. Cersei asks Tyrion how many men he's brought with him and Tyrion tells her that he has a few hundred. Cersei is angry with her father for sending Tyrion and asks her brother what use his few hundred men will be if Stannis or Renly march on the city. She says that Joffrey named their father Hand and Tyrion replies that their father in turn named him. Cersei argues that their father isn't allowed to do that and Tyrion tells her that she's welcome to take it up with him at Harrenhal. Tyrion asks the others to give him the chance to speak with Cersei privately and Varys comments that Tyrion must have longed to hear the sound of his sweet sister's voice. Varys tells the others to give Tyrion time alone with the Queen and they all ultimately decide to leave. Littlefinger lingers for a moment to ask about Tyrion's accommodations and Tyrion informs the Master of Coin that he'll be taking Ned's old rooms in the Tower of the Hand. Littlefinger laughs when Tyrion tells him this saying that Tyrion is a braver man than he is considering what happened with the last two Hands. Tyrion points out that four of the last Hands ended up meeting terrible fates and says that his father Tywin was in fact the last Hand to leave the post with his name, land, and body all still in one piece. Littlefinger says that's even more reason why he would be prefer to hang out in the dungeons over the Tower of the Hand. Tyrion looks at Petyr and thinks that Littlefinger might very well wind up in a dungeon one day. Tyrion tells him that he prays he'll be small enough to escape the notice of whatever curse is attached to the Tower of the Hand. Once Tyrion and Cersei are alone she tells him that she hopes he isn't there to bore them with lame history lessons. Tyrion takes a line from Varys and tells Cersei that he's yearned to hear her sweet voice again. Cersei replies that she'd like to have Varys' tongue ripped out and briefly wonders if Tyrion could have forged Tywin's letter. She wonders aloud why her father would inflict Tyrion on her and wants to know why the hell he wouldn't come himself when she issued him a royal command. Tyrion helpfully points out that their father can ignore Cersei's royal commands because their father is the one with the large army and that typically means that he can do as he will. Tyrion comments that Tywin likely isn't the only person to have ignored a royal command of hers or Joffrey's. Cersei is annoyed by the truth of this statement and responds by pointing out that she won't be ignored if she orders Tyrion to be thrown into one of the black cells. Tyrion realizes he's a step away from landing himself into serious trouble like when he was at the Eyrie and tells his sister that he's come a long way to be of help to her. Cersei snaps that she doesn't need any help from him and it was their father's presence that she specifically commanded. Tyrion tells her that she may have asked for Tywin but he knows perfectly well that it's Jaime she really wants. Tyrion is able to read Cersei like a book and he can see how truly worried she is about her twin. Tyrion tells Cersei that if she's supportive of him that they'll do everything they can to make sure that the Starks free Jaime and that he'll return to them unharmed. Cersei is feeling like Jaime's safe return is pretty impossible considering what happened with Ned. She knows Catelyn and Robb aren't going to get over that anytime soon but Tyrion argues that they might be able to come to some sort of arrangement considering that Cersei holds both of Robb's sisters. Cersei has to confess that she doesn't really have Arya and is just pretending that this is the case. She thinks it's likely that Arya is dead. She mentions that a bunch of people died the day Meryn Trant tried to take Arya into custody. Tyrion asks Cersei to tell him about the other members of the small council and this causes Cersei to look at the door almost as though she imagines someone could be listening; she then asks Tyrion what it is he wants to know. Tyrion tells his sister that their father has been wondering what their heads would look like on spikes and then asks Cersei if she trusts them. Cersei snaps that she doesn't trust anyone and asks if their father thinks the men on the council are trying to play them. Tyrion says that Tywin suspects that the members of the small council are playing them but doesn't know for sure. What Tywin is sure of is that Joffrey's short reign is already riddled with disaster and it makes him wonder why he's been receiving such poor advice from the small council. Cersei looks at Tyrion and tells him that having good counsel isn't the problem; the problem is that Joffrey is 'strong-willed' and is no longer content to do as he's told. Tyrion understands now that Ned's death was an example of Joffrey's so-called strong will. The queen grimaced. "He was instructed to pardon Stark, to allow him to take the black. The man would have been out of our way forever, and we might have made peace with that son of his, but Joff took it upon himself to give the mob a better show. What was I to do? He called for Lord Eddard's head in front of half the city. And Janos Slynt and Ser Ilyn went ahead blithely and shortened the man without a word from me!" Her hand tightened into a fist. "The High Septon claims we profaned Baelor's Sept with blood, after lying to him about our intent."Tyrion says that the High Septon has a point and asks about Janos Slynt's involvement. He wonders whose idea it was to grant Slynt Harrenhal and name him to the small council. Cersei replies that Littlefinger made the arrangements and said it was done because they needed the loyalty of the gold cloaks. She mentions that it was a close call and that Sansa helped her by telling her of her father's plans.Tyrion is surprised to learn that Sansa would tell Cersei of her father's plans and Cersei says Sansa did this because she was still crushing on Joffrey at the time. Cersei mentions that Sansa's feelings for Joffrey have changed ever since Ned's death. Tyrion tells Cersei that Joffrey has a very curious way of trying to win the loyalty of people. He wonders if it was also Joffrey's bright idea to dismiss Ser Barristan from the Kingsguard. Cersei explains that Joffrey wanted someone to blame for Robert's death so Varys helpfully suggested that the blame be shifted to Ser Barristan. Cersei seems to have thought the idea wasn't bad since it would accomplish putting Jaime in charge of the Kingsguard in addition to giving Joffrey the opportunity of rewarding Sandor Clegane. She points out that they did offer Selmy some land and a keep and claims this is more than the aging knight deserved anyway. Tyrion tells Cersei that he heard old Selmy ended up killing two of Slynt's goldcloaks when they tried to seize him. Cersei is annoyed and says that Slynt ought to have sent more men and admits that Slynt in general isn't terribly competent. Tyrion asks Cersei what people will think when they see Barristan the Bold riding along side Stannis or even Robb Stark, and Cersei is forced to acknowledge that she hadn't considered what would happen if Selmy joined up with another king. Tyrion says the reason he's been sent to King's Landing by their father is to put Joffrey in check and end all of the bad decision making that's been happening during his short reign. Cersei argues that Joffrey won't listen to Tyrion anymore than he'll listen to her but Tyrion thinks it's possible that he can get his nephew to listen and explains that he might do better than Cersei in this regard since Joffrey knows that Cersei would never hurt him. Cersei tells her brother that he's out of his mind if he thinks that she'll allow him to hurt Joffrey and Tyrion basically rolls his eyes at how slow Cersei is. Tyrion takes Cersei's hand, reminds her that he's her brother, and tells her that she and Joffrey need him if they want to hang on to the Iron Throne whether they like to admit it or not. Cersei seems shocked that Tyrion is physically touching her and tells him that he's always been rather cunning. Tyrion happily admits the truth of his sister's comment. Cersei says that perhaps Tyrion's idea is worth trying after all but insists that Tyrion disclose any plans that he might have in addition to agreeing to not act without Cersei's consent. She also makes it plain that Tyrion will be acting as her Hand and will pretty much be Joffrey's in name only. Tyrion lies through his teeth as he agrees to consent to Cersei's terms. Tyrion says that now that he and Cersei have established that they're on the same side, he asks her about what's been happening in King's Landing and directly asks her who was responsible for Jon Arryn's murder. Cersei instantly pulls her hand away from Tyrion's after he asks her about Lord Arryn's death and asks him how she should know how Arryn died. Tyrion informs Cersei that the widow Lysa accused him while he was at the Eyrie and wonders aloud who could have put the idea in Lysa's head in the first place. Cersei tells Tyrion she has no idea why he was accused and mentions that Ned accused her of the same thing. She mentions that Ned told her Jon Arryn suspected something but can't bring herself to say what it was, so Tyrion does it for her and guesses that Arryn figured out the twincest. Cersei slaps Tyrion for bluntly talking about the fact that she's been fucking their brother Jaime and Tyrion asks her if she really believes that he's as blind as their father when it comes to her incestuous relationship with her twin. He tells her that he doesn't really care who she has sex with but admits that he thinks it's unfair that Cersei will sleep with Jaime but not him. Cersei slaps Tyrion again so he tells her that he was only joking and admits that he prefers his prostitutes anyway. He adds that he's never understood what Jaime sees in Cersei anyway apart from Jaime getting off on how much they look alike, so Cersei slaps him again. Tyrion is tired of being slapped and tells Cersei that he might get angry if she keeps going. Cersei asks why she should care and Tyrion mentions that he has some new friends that she won't like. Tyrion changes the subject and asks about who killed Robert. "He did that himself. All we did was help. When Lancel saw that Robert was going after boar, he gave him strongwine. His favorite sour red, but fortified,three times as potent as he was used to. The great stinking fool loved it. He could have stopped swilling it down anytime he cared to, but no, he drained one skin and told Lancel to fetch another. The boar did the rest. You should have been at the feast, Tyrion. There has never been a boar so delicious. They cooked it with mushrooms and apples, and it tasted like triumph."Tyrion tells Cersei that widowhood suits her and says that he's ready to leave provided she's through slapping him around. Cersei replies that she hasn't given him leave to go and still wants to discuss what he's going to do about Jaime. Tyrion admits that he's not sure yet and says he'll let her know when he does. As Tyrion is leaving he asks Cersei to make sure that Sansa Stark is unharmed. Upon leaving the council chambers, Tyrion finds that Timmett is gone and Bronn explains that Timmett went off to explore the city. Tyrion hopes that Timmett doesn't kill anyone important and ultimately tasks Bronn with getting the clansmen quartered and fed. Bronn asks Tyrion what he'll be up to in the meantime and Tyrion replies that he'll be the Broken Anvil. Bronn wonders what Tyrion will do for an escort and Tyrion says that he's going to have the captain of Cersei's household guard take him. He wants to take the opportunity to remind the captain that his loyalty should be to Casterly Rock first. As Tyrion is leaving the Red Keep he looks at the heads that are decorating the walls and orders them to be taken down so that they can be returned to their bodies. Captain Vylarr nervously explains that Joffrey has ordered that the heads remain until the last three spikes are filled and Tyrion correctly guesses that the last three heads are meant to be Stannis, Robb, and Renly. Tyrion reminds the captain that Joffrey is thirteen years old and insists that the order for the heads to be taken down be followed. As Tyrion goes through the streets of King's Landing he sees that it's a different place than he remembers. There's a naked corpse in the middle of the road being eaten by wild dogs and nobody gives a shit. Food isn't really coming into the city anymore and there's a guy in the streets selling skewered rats that look more appetizing than what the butchers are offering. After asking about what Cersei's done in response to the situation in King's Landing, Tyrion learns that his sister has tripled the City Watch, has a thousand men working on the city's defenses, and has the Alchemist's Guild supplying them with ten thousand jars of wildfire. Tyrion asks where Cersei is getting the money for this stuff and finds out that Littlefinger had the bright idea of imposing a tax on anyone wanting to enter the city. Since thousands of people are flooding into the city because of the war, Tyrion thinks that Littlefinger's plan is both clever and cruel. Once Tyrion finally makes it to the Black Anvil he tells Vylarr to head back to the Red Keep with his men. Vylarr asks Tyrion if he's sure he'll be safe if they leave and Tyrion explains that Chella and the Black Ears Will be there to protect him. Vylarr doesn't really understand why Tyrion thinks he'll be safe but watches him head inside and presumably leaves as ordered. Inside the Black Anvil Tyrion sees Chella, various Black Ears, Shae, and, surprisingly, Lord Varys. Tyrion is totally thrown off by Varys' unexpected presence and wonders how Varys found out so quickly that he'd head to the Black Anvil. Varys says that he was interested in meeting Shae and Tyrion has some possessive thoughts about his eighteen year old mistress. Tyrion finds himself feeling irritated when he hears Shae address Varys as 'm'lord' since that's how she often addresses Tyrion while they're in bed. After some chatting about Chella and her ear necklace, Varys asks Tyrion if he'll have some wine with them and Tyrion agrees. He realizes that Varys is there to deliver a message of some kind. Tyrion again wonders how Varys learned about Shae and as Varys speaks, he begins to realize that Varys saw them enter the gates together. Varys warns Tyrion to take very good care of Shae and goes on about how extra dangerous King's Landing is these days. Tyrion tells Varys that he has every intention of protecting Shae. Varys rises to leave and says that he only wanted to welcome Tyrion and adds that Tyrion is very much needed on the small council. He asks if Tyrion has seen the comet and Tyrion replies that he's short not blind so of course he's seen it. "In the streets, they call it the Red Messenger," Varys said. "They say it comes as a herald before a king, to warn of fire and blood to follow." The eunuch rubbed his powdered hands together. "May I leave you with a bit of a riddle, Lord Tyrion?" He did not wait for an answer. "In a room sit three great men, a king, a priest, and a rich man with his gold. Between them stands a sellsword, a little man of common birth and no great mind. Each of the great ones bids him slay the other two. 'Do it' says the king, 'for I am your lawful ruler.' 'Do it' says the priest, 'for I command you in the names of the gods.' 'Do it' says the rich man, 'and all this gold shall be yours.' So tell me - who lives and who dies?" Bowing deeply, the eunuch hurried from the common room on soft slippered feet.When Varys leaves Chella sort of laughs and Shae guesses tht the rich man lives. Tyrion says it depends on the sellsword. Tyrion tells Shae that he's ready to go upstairs and once they're in their room alone, Shae asks Tyrion if he missed her and he admits that he did. She points out that he'll be missing her often since he'll have to spend so much time in the Red Keep. Tyrion likes the idea of taking Shae with him to the Red Keep but doesn't want to risk defying his father. He knows that all of his power derives from Tywin and Tywin specifically said that Tyrion couldn't bring his whore to court. Tyrion thinks that it was ballsy and rebellious enough for him bring Shae to King's Landing at all and basically says they'll have to make the best of the situation. He points out that Shae will have her own house, guards, and servants so it shouldn't be too bad. Shae confidently tells Tyrion that he won't be able to rest without her and says that he'll think of her every time he goes to bed. She suggests that Tyrion will have to jerk himself off without her being around and wonders aloud if this is how the Tower of the Hand got its name. Tyrion tells Shae to stop talking so that she can kiss him and they soon have sex. She calls him her lion and tells him that he's a giant of House Lannister, and it's clear that Tyrion totally likes hearing her say these sorts of things. After they're done, Tyrion thinks to himself what a fool he is for thinking that her feelings could somehow be genuine and reminds himself that she only puts up with him for the money. Shae asks Tyrion what he plans on doing now that he's Hand of the King and Tyrion responds that he's going to do something his sister won't expect. He says he's going to try to do justice. Edited October 4, 2015 by Avaleigh 1 Link to comment
Avaleigh October 4, 2015 Share October 4, 2015 (edited) My apologies for the delay. This chapter is great for setting the dynamic between Tyrion and Cersei. She despises him but I don't get the impression that she fears him the way she will later on. I still have the impression that the valonqar prophecy is a retcon. I liked seeing wormy Littlefinger lingering to get any scrap of information possible. I was very surprised at how bad the situation is already in King's Landing. It was like that movie Once Upon the Time in the West where wolves carry off some marshal or something because the body has been left unattended only way worse. They're already down to eating rats? I wonder why Varys wants to unsettle Tyrion at this point? How does it benefit him? Tyrion's jealousy when it comes to Shae is already apparent. He got jealous of a freaking eunuch. I don't even know what to do with that. Varys talking about fire and blood in association with the comet was cool. Cersei's reaction to being confronted with the incest is different than her reaction with Ned. With Ned she's defiant and weirdly proud of it, but with Tyrion it's like she's embarrassed and feels like she can't even try to justify it so she acts likeTyrion is the problem. Edited October 4, 2015 by Avaleigh 2 Link to comment
Lady S. October 4, 2015 Share October 4, 2015 My apologies for the delay. This chapter is great for setting the dynamic between Tyrion and Cersei. She despises him but I don't get the impression that she fears him the way she will later on. I still have the impression that the valonqar prophecy is a retcon. I wonder why Varys wants to unsettle Tyrion at this point? How does it benefit him? Tyrion's jealousy when it comes to Shae is already apparent. He got jealous of a freaking eunuch. I don't even know what to do with that. Cersei's reaction to being confronted with the incest is different than her reaction with Ned. With Ned she's defiant and weirdly proud of it, but with Tyrion it's like she's embarrassed and feels like she can't even try to justify it so she acts likeTyrion is the problem. Yeah, I always felt the prophecy was a retcon, I don't think GRRM even had it in mind to make Cersei a PoV until she was the last major character left in King's Landing. (Jaime's upcoming PoV is pretty well set up in Cat's last Clash chapter, but there's not really anything like that for Cersei.) I feel like prophecy Cersei would have freaked out more at the thought of Tyrion hurting Joffers. I love their exchange about Robert's death with Cersei saying Tyrion could have tasted her triumph when they ate the boar. Tyrion thinking he actually liked Robert shows how little he knew the king, since I doubt he'd feel that way if he'd seen Bobby being an ass to Jaime, or even just seen Bob's pathetic bullying side with anyone else. And if Tyrion and Robert had spent any time together, Robert would have been an asshole at some point about Tyrion's size. The line about Shae's pillow talk stood out to me at first too, the best I can make of it is that he's not jealous in a sexual sense, just annoyed at something he considers private being used with anyone else, be that person intact man, eunuch, or small child, and especially so because Varys is an intruder showing up uninvited for some weird show of power. He was counting on some alone time with Shae, had an unwelcome shock by seeing someone who could prove a danger to himself and Shae, and then he just had to sit there actually socializing with Varys and watching Shae do her thing in blissful ignorance of the tension. I guess Cersei's embarrassment comes from thinking Tyrion actually didn't know, and she would have wanted it to be a family secret to avoid Tywin finding out. With Ned, she didn't have to bring up the subject, he confronted her, so she didn't bother denying the truth because she was confident Ned couldn't do anything about it if she just killed Robert. And Tyrion treats the twincest as a joke in an increasingly ruder way, which pisses her off because Tyrion disgusts her and she's already annoyed just by his being there demanding she account for how bad things have gotten. 2 Link to comment
nodorothyparker October 5, 2015 Share October 5, 2015 So here we get confirmation that Varys was behind Barristan Selmy's dismissal and that Joffers went completely off script in shortening Ned by a head. Throw in that people are already eating rats and bodies are being left in the streets and you really do get the sense that Tyrion has walked into a situation of nobody running the asylum. I don't buy Cersei afraid of a valonqar prophecy here either. She's pretty freely throwing around information and slapping Tyrion around. It's always felt like a fourth book add on to me when George realized he had no major POV characters left in Kings Landing and he needed her to have some motivation other than just being a raging psychopathic bitch. But I've also never been convinced that the prophecy is as important as a lot of readers seem to and not something that exists mostly in her crazy pinwheel head. 1 Link to comment
benteen October 5, 2015 Share October 5, 2015 Tyrion's opening chapter is so much fun. Hell, all of his chapters are so much fun in this book. Tyrion's insults to Cersei were all great and I'm sorry we lost that on the show though I'm sure Dinklage was glad not to be slapped three times in a row. Varys brings up Joffrey going off-script and it seems like it was LF (no doubt about that) but it's never really discussed again. Interesting that Tyrion didn't have LF's head taken off after his lie about him to Catelyn. I guess Tyrion felt LF was too powerful to remove but he made a mistake her. I don't think the Cersei character needed a prophecy to explain her paranoia. 1 Link to comment
vibeology October 5, 2015 Share October 5, 2015 I love this book! This chapter is so good. Tyrion makes such a good intro into the crazy of King's Landing. This is his best book and best plot. This chapter is great for setting the dynamic between Tyrion and Cersei. She despises him but I don't get the impression that she fears him the way she will later on. I still have the impression that the valonqar prophecy is a retcon. I agree that the prophecy was added on. Cersei might have been too arrogant to worry about the YMBQ but I do think if she was aware of the valonqar prophecy its would have had a stronger impact on the Cersei/Tyrion dynamic. She even seems to be amused by him for a few moments here and there in the chapter. So here we get confirmation that Varys was behind Barristan Selmy's dismissal and that Joffers went completely off script in shortening Ned by a head. Throw in that people are already eating rats and bodies are being left in the streets and you really do get the sense that Tyrion has walked into a situation of nobody running the asylum. King's Landing became a huge mess so quickly. To be out of food and having dogs eat corpses in the streets is bad. For all of Varys' "I care about the people" how can he allow the city to fall so badly. The council is so useless. As for Selmy, god that was a stupid move. Cersei is such a moron for thinking that was a good idea. She just doesn't have the ability to think to the next step of her actions. It literally didn't occur to her that Selmy, who had changed kings before, might do so again because it was his duty. 2 Link to comment
John Potts October 5, 2015 Share October 5, 2015 It had passed me by that Barristan Selmy's dismissal was suggested by Varys... interesting in the light of later events. Loved the way Tyrion completely outmanoeuvres Cersei here: she really is not as bright as she thinks she is. 2 Link to comment
benteen October 5, 2015 Share October 5, 2015 Yeah, I completely missed that too. It's clear that Varys didn't want someone dangerous and competant to protect the King. 3 Link to comment
Holmbo October 5, 2015 Share October 5, 2015 (edited) Make it three, on people that missed Varys suggesting Barry's dismissal. Do we know if he gave any pointers to him to seek out Illyrio? I don't know how he'd know Illyrio had any clue where Dany was. By the way I read a theory ones that Varys is actually Illyrio's wife in disguise. :D Edited October 5, 2015 by Holmbo 3 Link to comment
benteen October 5, 2015 Share October 5, 2015 I don't think Selmy would trust Varys. Though he had to have gotten the information from somewhere that Illyrio was a host for Dany. Maybe from Mormont's letters? 2 Link to comment
John Potts October 6, 2015 Share October 6, 2015 I doubt Varys intended to have Ser Barristan join Dany (that would seem a huge leap to go from dismissal by the King to anticipating he might seek out the last Targaryen heir) - and it's unlikely to be a conspiracy between the two given Selmy is such an upright & honourable sort (not surprising he got on well with Eddard Stark!). I figure it's just a case of weakening the Lannister regime and that Ser Barristan happened to join Dany's Queensguard was just a happy bonus. Link to comment
nksarmi October 6, 2015 Share October 6, 2015 I don't think it's completely unlikely that Varys might have had one of his little birds plant the seed that lead Barristan to Dany. Barristan was loyal to the Targaryns in Robert's Rebellion and I can see him believing that perhaps he should have sought out Dany - the true heir - long ago. Varys is an excellent reader of people so he could have at least been willing to bet this outcome was possible. But it's clearly not a conspiracy because Barristan does go to Dany, not the hidden Aegon who Varys in the books seems to put his faith in. I honestly never considered that Aegon was a fake so I am really not sure why the series has excluded him to date. The only thing I can come up with is that maybe he dies and D&D thought it was a waste to introduce a new player this late if he doesn't live long enough to matter to the end game. 1 Link to comment
Lady S. October 6, 2015 Share October 6, 2015 I don't think Selmy would trust Varys. Though he had to have gotten the information from somewhere that Illyrio was a host for Dany. Maybe from Mormont's letters? Yeah, since book Barry was on the council and Jorah's earliest letters would have come from Pentos. Loved the way Tyrion completely outmanoeuvres Cersei here: she really is not as bright as she thinks she is. Cersei lamely responding she hadn't thought of that when Tyrion explains why dismissing Barry wasn't the best idea made me think of all the times she complains about Jaime being reckless and not thinking things through, At least Jaime knows when he's being reckless and has no illusions about those actions being Tywin/Tyrion-level great plans, Cersei makes countless badly thought out choices and the big difference between the twins there is that Cersei thinks everything she does is brilliant and never learns from her mistakes. 5 Link to comment
John Potts October 6, 2015 Share October 6, 2015 In terms of an Id/Ego/Super Ego trinity, Jamie is the Id (desire & instinct), Cesei the Ego (cold rationality, sort of) and Tyrion the Super Ego (regulator between the two). The trouble is, Cersei's plans aren't terribly well thought through - every time she criticises Jamie for pushing Bran I want to ask "So what should he have done?" Once he'd seen them, Bran needed to die and so Jamie took action - and about the only better choice he could have made was to bash his head in first. nksarmi I honestly never considered that Aegon was a fake so I am really not sure why the series has excluded him to date. Personally, I always considered he was probably fake, but only GRRM really knows! 1 Link to comment
benteen October 6, 2015 Share October 6, 2015 Yeah, since book Barry was on the council and Jorah's earliest letters would have come from Pentos. Cersei lamely responding she hadn't thought of that when Tyrion explains why dismissing Barry wasn't the best idea made me think of all the times she complains about Jaime being reckless and not thinking things through, At least Jaime knows when he's being reckless and has no illusions about those actions being Tywin/Tyrion-level great plans, Cersei makes countless badly thought out choices and the big difference between the twins there is that Cersei thinks everything she does is brilliant and never learns from her mistakes. That's right. As I recall, in the book the first place Jorah met Dany was at Illyrio's home before the wedding. So he definitely would have known that. 1 Link to comment
nksarmi October 6, 2015 Share October 6, 2015 In terms of an Id/Ego/Super Ego trinity, Jamie is the Id (desire & instinct), Cesei the Ego (cold rationality, sort of) and Tyrion the Super Ego (regulator between the two). The trouble is, Cersei's plans aren't terribly well thought through - every time she criticises Jamie for pushing Bran I want to ask "So what should he have done?" Once he'd seen them, Bran needed to die and so Jamie took action - and about the only better choice he could have made was to bash his head in first. Personally, I always considered he was probably fake, but only GRRM really knows! See the answer to "what should they have done" is clearly lie, lie, lie, and lie some more lol! Because seriously, assuming a what (seven year-old???) knows exactly what sex is can only happen in a world where 12/13 is old enough to bare babies. But come on, assuming Bran said a word to anyone, they are siblings for goodness sake. They could have said he was mistaken that it's ridiculous to think they would be having sex. They should have said that Cersei was upset because being in Winterfell was bringing up Robert's obsession with Lyanna and Jamie was comforting her - that's all. Whatever Bran thinks he saw was a mistake. The fact that what they are doing is so inconceivable to most people is the very reason they might have gotten away with the lie. The problem is that they are both so f-ed up in the head they don't realize how inconceivable what they are doing is and why it would be so easy to deny it. 1 Link to comment
nodorothyparker October 6, 2015 Share October 6, 2015 Cersei lamely responding she hadn't thought of that when Tyrion explains why dismissing Barry wasn't the best idea made me think of all the times she complains about Jaime being reckless and not thinking things through, At least Jaime knows when he's being reckless and has no illusions about those actions being Tywin/Tyrion-level great plans, Cersei makes countless badly thought out choices and the big difference between the twins there is that Cersei thinks everything she does is brilliant and never learns from her mistakes. Cersei is notoriously short sighted. She's able to find fault with the planning or lack of planning skills of everyone else, but she's completely unable to see why what she wants when she wants it isn't going to work or more often is going to have disastrous effects long term. It's always darkly amusing to me how oblivious and disdainful she is of how much the people of Kings Landing really fucking hate her and her family but can't connect the dots at all as to why they might feel that way. Cersei's discomfiture about Tyrion openly talking about her and Jaime is a great example of this. I love that she truly seems to think that Jon Arryn or Ned Stark figuring out the truth was some kind of aberration and that she's really clever enough to have kept everyone else in the dark about it all these years. It never occurs to her that Littlefinger and Varys and probably Stannis and any number of other people may already know but haven't said anything because it suits their purposes to sit on that information for the time being. Of course, I also find some small element of truth in Tyrion so uncouthly saying that it seems unfair for her to be willing to spread her legs for one brother but not another. For all his protests to the contrary, her continued rejection of him on every level really rankles him. 3 Link to comment
nodorothyparker October 6, 2015 Share October 6, 2015 See the answer to "what should they have done" is clearly lie, lie, lie, and lie some more lol! Because seriously, assuming a what (seven year-old???) knows exactly what sex is can only happen in a world where 12/13 is old enough to bare babies. But come on, assuming Bran said a word to anyone, they are siblings for goodness sake. They could have said he was mistaken that it's ridiculous to think they would be having sex. They should have said that Cersei was upset because being in Winterfell was bringing up Robert's obsession with Lyanna and Jamie was comforting her - that's all. Whatever Bran thinks he saw was a mistake. The fact that what they are doing is so inconceivable to most people is the very reason they might have gotten away with the lie. The problem is that they are both so f-ed up in the head they don't realize how inconceivable what they are doing is and why it would be so easy to deny it. This would be a great solution except for the fact that in the book they're both naked when Bran happens upon them. Having kids this age myself, I know it's often possible to convince them that something is different from what they think it is. But they're going to tend to notice two people who are naked together and remember it, especially if they know that one of those people is a Very Important Person like the queen. Link to comment
benteen October 6, 2015 Share October 6, 2015 Cersei is notoriously short sighted. She's able to find fault with the planning or lack of planning skills of everyone else, but she's completely unable to see why what she wants when she wants it isn't going to work or more often is going to have disastrous effects long term. It's always darkly amusing to me how oblivious and disdainful she is of how much the people of Kings Landing really fucking hate her and her family but can't connect the dots at all as to why they might feel that way. Cersei's discomfiture about Tyrion openly talking about her and Jaime is a great example of this. I love that she truly seems to think that Jon Arryn or Ned Stark figuring out the truth was some kind of aberration and that she's really clever enough to have kept everyone else in the dark about it all these years. It never occurs to her that Littlefinger and Varys and probably Stannis and any number of other people may already know but haven't said anything because it suits their purposes to sit on that information for the time being. Of course, I also find some small element of truth in Tyrion so uncouthly saying that it seems unfair for her to be willing to spread her legs for one brother but not another. For all his protests to the contrary, her continued rejection of him on every level really rankles him. Yeah, you do see later on that despite the fact that he hates Cersei, it also hurts him on a deep level that she hates him and is repulsed by him. 3 Link to comment
nksarmi October 6, 2015 Share October 6, 2015 (edited) This would be a great solution except for the fact that in the book they're both naked when Bran happens upon them. Having kids this age myself, I know it's often possible to convince them that something is different from what they think it is. But they're going to tend to notice two people who are naked together and remember it, especially if they know that one of those people is a Very Important Person like the queen. I don't think they can lie their way out of it with Bran - but I do think there is at least a possibility they can call Bran a liar and get away with it. I mean, that is essentially what Joffrey did to Ayra and when Sansa backed him - it decided the matter even though he was the liar. I mean it's not like Bran walking in saying he saw Jamie and Cersei naked in the tower would immediately result in their deaths. If both Cersei and Jamie say the kid is clearly mistaken and little twisted - I honestly don't think Robert would do a damn thing about it - he isn't exactly quick to action in regards to the Lannisters at other points in the story. Let's not forget that Robert did nothing when Jamie attacked Ned in the street, killed his men, and left KL to go to war over Tyrion. Jamie was out of line and close to being criminal for attacking the King's Hand in such a manner (regardless of rather or not Ned had resigned at the time). And as a member of the King's Guard, he essentially abandoned his duty to Robert but I can't recall Robert doing anything about it. Edited October 6, 2015 by nksarmi Link to comment
John Potts October 6, 2015 Share October 6, 2015 (edited) nksarmi "what should they have done" is clearly lie, lie, lie, and lie some more There is NO lie they could tell there that won't get them into trouble. OK, suppose they convinced Bran they were playing strip poker (or a suitable Westerosi equivalent) then folks are going to go, "Really? With your sister/brother?" and then ask for more details. Now it's possible that Jamie could intimidate Bran into keeping quiet in the short run, but sooner or later he's going to talk - unless he's dead. Jamie had no real choice (other than to confess, I suppose). ETA in response to the post above: It might work short term to brand Brand a liar, but it would be dangerous in the extreme. It'd be an oddly specific lie for Bran to come up with (I don't think he's particularly sexually curious prior to his accident) and would make people start to wonder about how often Jamie & Cersei are alone together. Probably the best lie to come up with would be "No, that wasn't the Queen, that was her servant Lady Blondie," (she must have at least one blond servant they can intimidate into lying for the Queen). Even that will still make people potentially ask questions (and leaves them at the mercy of Lady Blondie blabbing later). Edited October 6, 2015 by John Potts 1 Link to comment
benteen October 6, 2015 Share October 6, 2015 Yeah, Robert didn't seem to care about Jaime running off. He even threatend (mockingly or not) to name Jaime Hand of the King if Ned didn't return. I think all he wanted was Ned to order Catelyn to "release the little shit" and be done with it. He seemed more concerned with going out to hunt. 1 Link to comment
Lady S. October 6, 2015 Share October 6, 2015 (edited) Of course, I also find some small element of truth in Tyrion so uncouthly saying that it seems unfair for her to be willing to spread her legs for one brother but not another. For all his protests to the contrary, her continued rejection of him on every level really rankles him. I don't think he actually desires her sexually, but he does naturally wish she'd stop being repulsed by him. They are close kin and yet she's hated him his whole life for the mere fact of his birth, the fact that Jaime does love him and she loves Jaime makes it even worse since they're all equally related. Even if Cersei and Jaime's bond wasn't squicky, there'd be that same sibling tension. She hates him for no fault of his own, he hates her, quite understandably, for treating him like shit and hating him unfairly. See the answer to "what should they have done" is clearly lie, lie, lie, and lie some more lol! Because seriously, assuming a what (seven year-old???) knows exactly what sex is can only happen in a world where 12/13 is old enough to bare babies. He doesn't understand sex because he's deemed old enough, he could recognize the act because he would have seen it before, in animals, at the very least. And if he told people he saw them wrestling naked, they'd have to call him a liar to deny it, and Ned would wonder why Bran would make up such a story. Ned had already accepted the Handship, and Cersei was rightly suspicious about his doing so. Bran telling Ned what he saw would have surely speeded up Ned's investigations. I don't think they can lie their way out of it with Bran - but I do think there is at least a possibility they can call Bran a liar and get away with it. I mean, that is essentially what Joffrey did to Ayra and when Sansa backed him - it decided the matter even though he was the liar. Sansa didn't back him up, her lie was saying she didn't remember. Robert wasn't going to side against his heir based only on Arya's word, and he didn't care about Mycah or Lady dying, but he admitted to Ned later he knew the whole time that Joffrey was lying. What Cersei and Jaime did was a much bigger deal than a fight between children. You don't think he would have wanted the excuse to behead both of them? Ned would have believed Bran, and Ned would have found the same evidence Jon Arryn did in King's Landing to back up Bran's story. I think the other thing to keep in mind is that Cersei only complains after it's clear Bran won't die. If he had died from the impact, no one would have suspected foul play and Cersei wouldn't care about his death. It's not like she's morally opposed to killing children, and Bran really should have died from such a high fall. (Shouldn't his skull have been injured along with his spine.) There's no indication it wasn't a tall enough height to kill someone from, or that Jaime should have known that. Edited October 6, 2015 by Lady S. 2 Link to comment
nodorothyparker October 6, 2015 Share October 6, 2015 (edited) True about Robert's indifference. We know Robert was pretty passive about being "surrounded by bloody Lannisters" as he once put it despite all his complaining because he's deeply in hock to Tywin. He also doesn't really seem to care about much by then and mostly just wants to be left alone to drink and whore. Ned seems really certain that Robert's wrath will be terrible if he finds out. It's fun to speculate on, but I think it has to be no matter how little he might personally care about what Cersei does. Because it means he has no legitimate heir and very publicly brands him a cuckold. So I can sort of understand why in that moment Jaime and Cersei know they can't lie their way out of it and Jaime acts on instinct to silence the threat. Cersei's main issue with that is that Bran inconveniently doesn't die. Edited October 6, 2015 by nodorothyparker 2 Link to comment
nksarmi October 6, 2015 Share October 6, 2015 I don't think he actually desires her sexually, but he does naturally wish she'd stop being repulsed by him. They are close kin and yet she's hated him his whole life for the mere fact of his birth, the fact that Jaime does love him and she loves Jaime makes it even worse since they're all equally related. Even if Cersei and Jaime's bond wasn't squicky, there'd be that same sibling tension. She hates him for no fault of his own, he hates her, quite understandably, for treating him like shit and hating him unfairly. He doesn't understand sex because he's deemed old enough, he could recognize the act because he would have seen it before, in animals, at the very least. And if he told people he saw them wrestling naked, they'd have to call him a liar to deny it, and Ned would wonder why Bran would make up such a story. Ned had already accepted the Handship, and Cersei was rightly suspicious about his doing so. Bran telling Ned what he saw would have surely speeded up Ned's investigations. Sansa didn't back him up, her lie was saying she didn't remember. Robert wasn't going to side against his heir based only on Arya's word, and he didn't care about Mycah or Lady dying, but he admitted to Ned later he knew the whole time that Joffrey was lying. What Cersei and Jaime did was a much bigger deal than a fight between children. You don't think he would have wanted the excuse to behead both of them? Ned would have believed Bran, and Ned would have found the same evidence Jon Arryn did in King's Landing to back up Bran's story. I think the other thing to keep in mind is that Cersei only complains after it's clear Bran won't die. If he had died from the impact, no one would have suspected foul play and Cersei wouldn't care about his death. It's not like she's morally opposed to killing children, and Bran really should have died from such a high fall. (Shouldn't his skull have been injured along with his spine.) There's no indication it wasn't a tall enough height to kill someone from, or that Jaime should have known that. I think Robert knew that he was so indebted to Tywin and the Lannisters that he would have looked for any excuse to excuse away what Bran saw. We could argue that Robert is blind to it despite others figuring it out because he wants to live in a fantasy world where his wife isn't cheating on him despite his whoring ways and their utter hatred of each other - and where his children are good heirs who will further his name and greatness. They had little to fear from Robert because he would want to believe the lie they told. John - your idea of lying about who the woman is actually works very well. The Lannisters certainly have enough money to buy someone's silence until they can arrange for a fortuitous marriage for said lady in waiting. Oh I should add that I think the real reason the only "solution" was to kill Bran was because a lie would have meant they would have to be careful afterwards to ensure the lie was believed. Since Jamie had NO interest in giving up Cersei, death becomes the only possible solution in his mind. Link to comment
Lady S. October 6, 2015 Share October 6, 2015 (edited) I think Robert was just the kind of guy to get super pissed off about his wife cheating on him even though he whored around all the time and didn't even like her. I don't see any indication he was willfully ignorant of their affair. He hates Cersei with a passion, abuses her, and is scared of the thought of Joffrey on the throne with Cersei whispering in his ear. If you think he wouldn't care if Ned backed up Bran's story with Jon Arryn's evidence and accused Cersei of Jon Arryn's murder, then that makes Ned's entire KL plot kinda pointless. Cersei certainly believed Robert didn't know and there would be hell to pay if he found out, that's why she killed him. When Cersei and Ned actually agree on something like that, I'm inclined to think they have good reason. (And Renly and the Tyrells must have been counting on the same in their plot to replace Cersei with Marg.) Edited October 6, 2015 by Lady S. 3 Link to comment
nodorothyparker October 6, 2015 Share October 6, 2015 I think Robert knew that he was so indebted to Tywin and the Lannisters that he would have looked for any excuse to excuse away what Bran saw. We could argue that Robert is blind to it despite others figuring it out because he wants to live in a fantasy world where his wife isn't cheating on him despite his whoring ways and their utter hatred of each other - and where his children are good heirs who will further his name and greatness. They had little to fear from Robert because he would want to believe the lie they told. I don't know if it's even fantasy as much as just not wanting to be bothered. We see that early on in Ned's adventures in Kings Landing when he's surprised to learn that Robert only rarely shows up to Small Council meetings and lets its various members and the hand do most of the day to day running of things. We see it again when Littlefinger makes a point of showing Ned how he and Varys and Cersei all have their various informers (Which again, maybe should have been a tipoff to Cersei that maybe her private affair wasn't as private as she thought, but I digress). At no point is there any indication that Robert also has informers. That would require him to pay attention. He's at least aware that Joffers is going to be a terrible ruler with Cersei pulling the puppet strings, but can't be bothered to try to head that off either. None of this means that he's going to be blase about it or ignore it outright if someone forces the information under his nose that his kids aren't his and his queen has been cuckolding him for a decade and a half with her brother. 2 Link to comment
nksarmi October 6, 2015 Share October 6, 2015 Oh I fully agree that if Robert HAD to face proof (as much as they could prove these things without DNA evidence) that Cersei was sleeping with Jamie and his children weren't his own - that his fury would be extreme. I'm just suggesting that at the moment Jamie pushed Bran out the window, a beautiful lie was still an option. Of course, the price of that lie would have to be acting in such a way that suspicion never fell on them again and I think that is the real reason Jamie did it. Not because he HAD to, but because it was the EASIEST thing to do. 3 Link to comment
nodorothyparker October 6, 2015 Share October 6, 2015 That's probably a fair point. If they somehow had managed to convince everyone that the kid didn't see what he saw, the suspicion would still be out there and they'd forever be under extra scrutiny. Where before the average person probably didn't think much about the fact that the queen was obviously very close to her twin brother and spent a lot of time alone with him, now everybody would be looking and wondering, making it that much more difficult for them to be together. Neither of them at this point in the story are ready to walk away if there's another alternative for fixing the problem. 4 Link to comment
Hecate7 October 6, 2015 Share October 6, 2015 (edited) See the answer to "what should they have done" is clearly lie, lie, lie, and lie some more lol! Because seriously, assuming a what (seven year-old???) knows exactly what sex is can only happen in a world where 12/13 is old enough to bare babies. But come on, assuming Bran said a word to anyone, they are siblings for goodness sake. They could have said he was mistaken that it's ridiculous to think they would be having sex. They should have said that Cersei was upset because being in Winterfell was bringing up Robert's obsession with Lyanna and Jamie was comforting her - that's all. Whatever Bran thinks he saw was a mistake. The fact that what they are doing is so inconceivable to most people is the very reason they might have gotten away with the lie. The problem is that they are both so f-ed up in the head they don't realize how inconceivable what they are doing is and why it would be so easy to deny it. Ned would believe Bran. That's the real problem. Jaime Lannister knows who Ned Stark is, and what kind of son he would raise. Honest, true, noble, and smart for his age. He's pretty sure he can't bribe, silence, or confuse Bran, and Cat and Ned are too smart not to believe their kid if he tells them what he saw. And Ned is too noble not to report it straight to the king. They'd have gotten away with lying to the Tyrells because the Tyrells would see a benefit in "believing" the lie. The Baratheons, Tullies, or Freys would probably not take a child's word over Jaime Lannister's, or the Queen's. But Jaime is in the one household where he will not automatically be believed over Bran just because of who he is. Bran has probably seen dogs, horses, etc coupling ... and so he knows about the birds and the bees. It would be very hard to convince Bran that what he had seen was something else. Jaime would have to come up with something that looks like what they were doing--looking for Cersei's necklace? Helping her on with her garters? Anything he'd come up with would raise more questions. As others have observed, letting Bran go would probably invite scrutiny. Edited October 6, 2015 by Hecate7 Link to comment
Holmbo October 7, 2015 Share October 7, 2015 (edited) Ned didn't believe Arya though. About the plot in the dungeon. I think it comes back to what's been said that they could get away with it if they agreed to stop to not raise more suspicion. Edited October 7, 2015 by Holmbo 3 Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.