The Official Re-Read Project: Book 2: A Clash Of Kings

[nodorothyparker]

When you think about it, it's kind of a neat trick Martin pulls off making so much information both about backstory and other characters to be hearsay.  You're never quite sure how much is true and how much is just a story, which again gives Martin an easy out if he decides later that something really didn't happen that way.  Five books in and we still don't know exactly what happened with the Targaryens and Rhaegar and Lyanna, but everyone has an opinion that already sparked one war and laid much of the groundwork that led up to the current one.

 

I have no real feeling whether the Targaryens have hardier immune systems, but I love little details like the mention of the one who drank wildfire hoping to turn into a dragon or the stories we get elsewhere about the great fire at Summerhall.  The Targaryens must have been a special kind of insanity to hang out with, assuming you survived it.

 

I had the same reaction to Mormont's telling all of this to Jon.  It was just so random.  It's almost like he knows, but then I thought that has to be impossible. 

[benteen]

You're right, there is a real shortage of princesses.  I think Hoster held out for a really big match for Edmure (Hoster was probably the second-most ambitious Lord when it came to such matters) but there really wasn't much to choose from at this point when it came to major houses.  House Redwyne is mentioned as having a daughter who is over marrying age (later in the books) and the Redwynes seem to be one of the top bannerman Houses in Westeros. 

 

Anyway, liked this chapter and really enjoyed Noye's assessement of the Baratheon brothers.  I had forgotten that he speculated on what kind of a King that Robb would be.  I do remember that he considered sending Sam down to the Reach for deal with King Renly.  That REALLY would not have gone over well at that time.

 

Mormont was right to broach the question of jealousy to Jon, especially considering that Jon nearly deserted before.  But Jon has already remained good in this department.

Edited October 21, 2015 by benteen

[Avaleigh]

Catelyn I

 

A freshly forged bronze and iron crown has been made for Robb and it's supposed to be a replica of the crown worn by the Starks back when they were known as the Kings of Winter. Catelyn watches her son adjust the crown several times and thinks about how difficult it must be to wear one especially for a fifteen year old.

 

In the Great Hall of Riverrun Ser Cleos Frey has been brought before Robb. Frey was captured during the battle in the Whispering Wood and as he's brought in front of Robb, Theon addresses Cleos as 'Lannister' and shouts at him to go down on his knees; Ser Robin forces Cleos to comply.

 

Catelyn thinks to herself that Cleos doesn't look like a Lannister at all and seems to have all of the features of a Frey.

 

Robb tells Cleos to rise and Grey Wind chooses this moment to start sniffing around the clearly terrified knight. The way Cleos scrambles to get to his feet and away from Grey Wind has people in the hall laughing out loud.

 

When Cleos thanks Robb for allowing him to rise to his feet, he addresses Robb as he would address a lord. The Greatjon Umber sharply corrects him and has Cleos address Robb as 'Your Grace'. Catelyn again thinks that Ser Cleos isn't much of a Lannister and feels that Jaime would never have given Robb that courtesy.

 

Robb tells Cleos that he's brought him from his cell so that he can deliver a message to his cousin Cersei. Cleos is clearly relieved and says that he'd be happy to do it. Robb brings up the fact that Cleos fought for House Lannister while his Frey cousins fought on the other side, and clarifies that he won't be freeing him. He fully expects Cleos to come back and deliver Cersei's reply after which he will resume his captivity. Cleos vows that he will return and Edmure Tully reminds him that everyone in the room has heard his declaration, so if he ends up going back on his word then everyone will know him to be a vow breaker.

 

Cleos asks what the message is and Robb says that he wants to make an offer of peace. Robb tells Cleos that the fighting will stop if the following terms are met. He wants his sisters to be provided safe transport from King's Landing to White Harbor. He wants the bones of his father returned in addition to the remains of the men of Ned's household guard. He also specifies that Sansa's betrothal to Joffrey is at an end. He vows in return to release Cersei's cousins Willem Lannister and Tion Frey. Robb also wants the sword Ice to be returned to him at Riverrun.

 

Catelyn has a moment where she thinks about how she encouraged Ned to accept the position as Hand of the King.

 

Robb also wants the Queen to have her father release the knights and bannermen who were captured during the battle on the Green Fork of the Trident. He says that once this is done then he'll release all of the men he captured during the Whispering Wood save Jaime Lannister, who will be kept to keep Lord Tywin's behavior in check.

 

Catelyn watches Theon smiling and wonders what he's thinking about. She thinks he has a way of looking where he seems like he has some secret joke that he hasn't let the world in on. She thinks to herself that she's never liked this quality about Theon.

 

 

 

"Lastly, King Joffrey and the Queen Regent must renounce all claims to dominion over the north. Henceforth we are no part of their realm, but a free and independent kingdom, as of old. Our domain shall include all the Stark lands north of the Neck, and in addition the lands watered by the River Trident and its vassal streams, bounded by the Golden Tooth to the west and the Mountains of the Moon in the east."

"THE KING IN THE NORTH!" boomed Greatjon Umber, a ham-sized fist hammering at the air as he shouted. "Stark! Stark! The King in the North!"

 

Robb is providing maps for his new territory as King in the North so that the Lannisters will know exactly which lands he's laying claim to. He makes it clear that the people who fall under his territory aren't going to be able to be taxed or anything like that by the Lannisters or Baratheons.

 

Finally, Robb requests that the Lannisters send ten highborn hostages to Winterfell where they will be treated as honored guests. He says that he'll release two hostages per year if the Lannisters hold up their end of the bargain. Robb says that if Cersei doesn't like these terms then he'll give her another Whispering Wood.

 

The Greatjon rallies another cry for the King in the North and Ser Cleos nervously tells Robb that the Queen will hear his message. Robb has Ser Robin see to making sure that Cleos is fed and dressed in fresh clothing and says that Cleos is to leave at dawn.

 

Robb calls an end to the day and all of his knights and bannermen end up filing out of the hall. Catelyn tells Robb that he did well but chastises him a bit for the moment with Grey Wind. Robb smiles in memory of the moment and asks his mother if she saw the look on Cleos Frey's face. Catelyn replies that what she noticed was Lord Karstark walking out of the hall.

 

Robb admits that he saw Lord Karstark walk out. He then takes off his crown and hands it to Olyvar Frey so that it can be taken to his bedchamber. After the squire leaves, Edmure says that he's sure there are others who feel the same as Karstark and gives his own opinion that they should march on Tywin at Harrenhal. Robb replies that he doesn't feel that they have the strength.

 

Edmure points out that their strength is dwindling with every passing day and Catelyn snaps at her brother that it's basically his fault that they're losing men from the Riverlands. At Edmure's insistence Robb permitted the river lords to return to their castles in order to defend their lands. Piper, Vance, Bracken, and Mallister all decided to leave after they were given permission.

 

Robb says that he can't blame Karstark for how he feels considering the fact that he lost two sons in the Whispering Wood. He completely understands why Karstark doesn't want to make peace with the people responsible for killing his sons. Robb thinks about how these are the same people who killed Ned and Catelyn says that more fighting isn't going to bring back Ned or Karstark's sons.

 

Catelyn says that it would have been smarter if Robb had offered more generous terms but Robb says he would have gagged if he'd made the deal any sweeter. She tells him that Cersei will never consent to giving them the girls in exchange for a pair of cousins. Catelyn says that it's Jaime Cersei really wants and points out that Robb knows this perfectly well. She then thinks to herself that kings don't listen half so well as sons do.

 

Even if he wanted to release Jaime, Robb says that there's no way his lords would let him get away with it. Catelyn says that the lords made Robb their King and Robb replies that they can take it back just as easily.

 

Catelyn thinks that giving up Robb's crown would be worth it if they can get Sansa and Arya safely returned and says that there are any number of men who would be willing to kill Jaime while he's in his cell. Catelyn makes it crystal clear to Robb that Cersei will likely kill Sansa and Arya both if anything happens to her twin.

 

Robb says that Jaime won't die and says that nobody has permission to see him without his leave. He says that Jaime is being given food and water and is currently more comfortable than he has any right to be. He says he refuses to free Jaime though, not even for Arya and Sansa.

 

Catelyn asks Robb if he's afraid to have Jaime on the field of battle again and this makes Edmure interject, telling his sister that Robb is right to not want to trade Jaime for the girls. Robb gets all annoyed with Edmure for referring to him as a boy and reminds his uncle that he is now his King. 

 

Robb feels that he might have been able to trade Jaime for Ned and Catelyn calls him out for acting like girls aren't as important. Robb is hurt and Catelyn thinks that the comment was unworthy of her. She feels that losing the girls would be too much for her to deal with on top of losing Ned. Robb promises to do all he can to free his sisters. He also says that he'll make the Queen rue the day she refused his terms if that's what she ends up doing.

 

Robb asks his mother if she's sure she doesn't want to go back to the Twins away from the fighting. He suggests that she get familiar with the women of House Frey and that way she can help him choose a bride. Catelyn can tell that Robb wants her gone and out of his way, so she tells him that he's old enough to decide for himself which of Frey's girls he'd prefer.

 

Smooth Robb then suggests that Catelyn go with Theon who will be returning to the Iron Islands. He says that Catelyn could get a ship and be back at Winterfell with Bran and Rickon. Catelyn sees that Robb feels he no longer needs her but replies that she'll remain at Riverrun as long as her father is alive. Robb mentions that he could technically order his mother to leave but she simply ignores him when he says this.

 

Catelyn repeats to Robb that she thinks somebody else should be sent to Pyke rather than Theon. She suggests Jason Mallister or Tytos Blackwood. She thinks anyone would be a better choice to send than Theon but Robb thinks there's no better option than to have Balon Greyjoy treat with his own son.

 

Robb brings up how Theon has fought for them and how he saved Bran in the wolfswood. He says that if the Lannisters aren't open to peace then he'll need to have Balon's ships. Catelyn says that Robb could get the ships sooner if Theon were to remain a hostage. She insists that Balon is a man that is not to be trusted and says that Balon may still aspire to wear a crown for all they know. Robb replies that he's actually fine with Balon being King of the Iron Islands again and says that if that's Balon's price then he's willing to meet it.

 

Robb curtly tells his mother that he's sending Theon and abruptly leaves her presence, taking Grey Wind with him. Catelyn watches her son leave and thinks about how weird it is that he's also her King.

 

Catelyn announces that she's going to visit her father and asks Edmure to go with her. Edmure makes up an excuse and Catelyn knows that he has no interest in being in their father's sickroom if he doesn't absolutely have to be.

 

When Catelyn enters her father's solar she sees that he's sleeping. Sitting beside Hoster Tully is his brother Brynden. Catelyn asks her uncle if Robb knows that he's returned.

 

The Blackfish tells Catelyn that he wanted to wait to see Robb in private. He then asks about Hoster and Catelyn says that he's getting weaker with each day and spends a lot of time drugged out on milk of the poppy.

 

Brynden asks if Hoster speaks and Catelyn says that he speaks but he's starting to make less and less sense. Sometimes he thinks that Catelyn is his dead wife and sometimes he has no idea what season it is. Brynden says that each time he rides out he wonders if he's going to learn of Hoster's death upon his return. Even with all of their fighting, Catelyn reflects that there was always a deep bond between the Tully brothers. She comments to the Blackfish that it's good he made his peace with his brother back when he could.

 

Brynden pulls Catelyn outside so that they can talk without disturbing Hoster. He looks up at the comet and says that his men are calling it the Red Messenger. He wonders what the message could be and Catelyn says that the Greatjon thinks it's a red flag of vengeance that's in honor of Ned. She mentions that Edmure thinks it's a fish and has the Tully colors of red and blue. Catelyn admits that she doesn't have their faith and thinks that the red reminds her of the Lannisters.

 

The Blackfish says that the comet in the sky doesn't look crimson like the Lannister red or mud red like the Tully color. He says the comet is the color of blood. Catelyn wonders if it's meant to mean their blood or the enemy's. Brynden points out that there's never been a war where both sides haven't shed blood.

 

The talk turns to Lord Beric Dondarrion and Catelyn mentions that some of Ned's guard ended up going with him. Brynden says that Beric and Thoros of Myr have managed to keep themselves alive but says that Hoster's bannermen haven't fared as well. He says Robb should never have allowed them to go.

Gregor Clegane is still wreaking havoc in the Riverlands and even killed Lyman Darry who was the last of his line according to Brynden. Catelyn is horrified to hear this and thinks that Darry was only a child. Brynden says that Darry could have brought Clegane a nice ransom but Gregor doesn't care about things like that. He says that the sooner someone puts Clegane down the better.

 

Catelyn doesn't want to hear about people losing their heads and thinks about how Ned's head is rotting on a spike in King's Landing. It's still hard for her to believe that he's really gone. She also thinks that Tywin Lannister is the Big Bad in all of this and certainly more so than Gregor Clegane. Brynden agrees with Catelyn about Tywin and says that Tywin is nobody's fool. He mentions how Tywin is feeding his host on their lands and basically burns everything he doesn't take. Ser Amory Lorch is on the loose as well and villages have been put to the torch in addition to all of the death, violence, and rape.

 

Catelyn says that Edmure will be angry when he finds out and Brynden says that's exactly what Tywin is counting on. Brynden thinks that Tywin wants to provoke Robb into battle and Catelyn thinks that Robb is likely to give Tywin his wish. The Blackfish feels that it would be a mistake for them to march on Harrenhal.

 

Catelyn thinks about Harrenhal and its cursed history and admits that she wouldn't want Robb to fight a battle near it. She tells her uncle that they have to do something to dissuade Robb. Brynden agrees that they'll have to act soon because a new host is being assembled at Casterly Rock. The new Lannister host is going to be commanded by Ser Stafford Lannister, the brother of Tywin's late wife Joanna.

Brynden figures that Tywin isn't going to leave Harrenhal until Ser Stafford and his men are ready to march. Catelyn wonders if they can find a reason that would make Tywin want to leave Harrenhal and Brynden quickly realizes that his niece is thinking about Renly.

 

The Blackfish thinks Renly could be helpful and wonders what Renly's price would be. Catelyn thinks that Renly wants what all kings want. He'll want them to pay homage.

Edited October 28, 2015 by Avaleigh

[vibeology]

Catelyn is so shrewd in this chapter and while it doesn't undo some of her political mistakes like arresting Tyrion or trusting Littlefinger, it does go a long way to showing that she is from a Southern family and better politically connected than the Northerners. She predicts the Theon/Bslon troubledps, she knows Karstark is going to be a problem, she sees Tywin's plans clearly, knows that there will be a problem with Edmure letting the River lords leave and has a pretty good sense of who Renly is and what will motivate him. If she were another Lord and not the King's mother, she'd probably be one of Robb's most trusted and valued advisors. Robb, though, cannot be seen being led around by his mother so she gets shut out and ignored so his men will respect him. The whole "the girls are worth less than a man" thing isn't just about Sansa and Arya; it's about where Catelyn fits into this world too. Even when she's the smartest person in the room or the person with the most first hand experience, she just matters less because she is a woman.

Seeing her thoughts about putting an end to violence and bloodshed are especially sad considering where she ends up in the next few books.

[John Potts]

Funnily enough, I was thinking the opposite (why YMMV is a thing!): that in some respects, Robb's treating with the Lannisters is cannier than Catelyn's. By offering terms that are pretty generous but he's sure Cersei will reject, he portrays himself as a strong, magnanamous King and Cersei is the unreasonable one - and thus going back on the offensive is justified to his men (and Lord Karstark would have no problem with that). Obviously, Catelyn is right about Balon, but hindsight is always 20/20.

 

Avaleigh She also thinks that Tywin Lannister is the Big Bad in all of this

 

I'm pretty sure that's not how GRRM phrased it (though he is)!

[nodorothyparker]

Every last one of the seeds for what we know is to come are here, from Karstark not being happy, to Tywin obviously trying to draw Edmure out into a fight, to loyalty questions about the Freys, to the concern about sending Theon to Balon, to peace terms that Robb has to know Cersei will reject because they specifically leave Jaime off the table.  I do love though that negotiations are supposed to be conducted by a guy who's been let out of his pen for that purpose and then is expected to meekly go back to his pen when he's done.  

 

Robb just comes off so much as the 15-year-old boy he is here, making all sorts of promises full of bravado that he can't realistically make.  He's also guilty of the same mindset that ultimately doomed Ned:  expecting everyone he was dealing with to have the same standards of honor he has.

[benteen]

Reading this in retrospect reminded me how ill-advised Robb's decision-making was here.  Without Jaime as a bargaining chip, he has no chance to getting back Sansa.  Though I don't know if any explanation the Lannisters could have given about Arya would have been accepted by Robb.  The Theon decision was a gigantic mistake from the beginning...you don't give up your only bargaining chip with the Ironborn but again, I think Balon was planning for war anyway.  Thinking that Balon was going to swear fealty to a usurper was as dumb as Balon is.

 

Liked the bit about Catelyn noting how close Hoster and Blackfish are despite all their fighting.  Book Blackfish blows Show Blackfish out of the war.

 

Book Catelyn is a far more interesting and complex character than her TV counterpart though Michelle Farley always did great work with the character.

[Lady S.]

Catelyn is so shrewd in this chapter and while it doesn't undo some of her political mistakes like arresting Tyrion or trusting Littlefinger, it does go a long way to showing that she is from a Southern family and better politically connected than the Northerners. She predicts the Theon/Bslon troubledps, she knows Karstark is going to be a problem, she sees Tywin's plans clearly, knows that there will be a problem with Edmure letting the River lords leave and has a pretty good sense of who Renly is and what will motivate him. If she were another Lord and not the King's mother, she'd probably be one of Robb's most trusted and valued advisors. Robb, though, cannot be seen being led around by his mother so she gets shut out and ignored so his men will respect him. The whole "the girls are worth less than a man" thing isn't just about Sansa and Arya; it's about where Catelyn fits into this world too. Even when she's the smartest person in the room or the person with the most first hand experience, she just matters less because she is a woman.

I think she's entirely right about Theon (Balon was going to invade anyway, but it was Theon's capture of Winterfell and presumed murder of Bran and Rickon that really screwed Team Stark, and if Balon refused a deal that would end Theon's captivity, that could at least have been a warning sign), the riverlords/Tywin/Gregor, and Renly, but I don't really see what her point is about Karstark when she only wants to piss him off more with sweeter peace terms. Getting the girls back is all she really cares about, but the war is bigger than her family at this point, with Tywin in Harrenhal and another Lannister army set to invade the riverlands again. Tywin and Cersei want Jaime back, but they're also both proud and vengeful, so I doubt they'd agree to end the war completely if he was returned. Two girls not being worth as much as Ned is unfair, but there's not much Robb could do about it even if he wanted to. These men didn't care more about freeing Ned just because he was a man, or because they liked him so much, he was important because he was their liege lord and Sansa and Arya are less important because they're last in line for Winterfell, which would also be true if Ned was a guy like Frey, with too many sons. Asking him to throw his crown back in his bannermen's faces isn't really reasonable, since his authority isn't absolute and he could always lose their loyalty. She thinks about how she told him to command at Moat Cailin, but seems to be forgetting why she told him that, she knew he needed the respect of his lords and that they were not just his friends.

On this issue, she appears to have done a 180 from that fateful convo with Ned and come around to Ned's position, wanting to just keep the surviving family together, avoid conflict, and ignore political realities which would prevent either (like Robert being Ned's king, not his boyhood bff), which makes sense since it's assumed Ned's personality was shaped by his traumatic losses in the Rebellion, and Catelyn's now getting a taste of that with Ned's death. A death I don't think she ever really allowed herself time to grieve for, btw, so that adding Bran and Rickon's "deaths" into the mix really did not help matters.

I did get annoyed with Robb that his first response to the idea of Jaime being murdered is not that he won't let that happen, but that Jaime deserves it anyway. I'd think it shouldn't have to be spelled out that Jaime's death could mean bad news for his sisters.

 

The show not only had treating with Renly be Robb's idea, they didn't even have Catelyn present in the scene where Robb reads his terms to NotCleos.

 

Edmure says that each time he rides out he wonders if he's going to learn of Hoster's death upon his return. Even with all of their fighting, Catelyn reflects that there was always a deep bond between the Tully brothers. She comments to the Blackfish that it's good he made his peace with his brother back when he could.

I think you meant Brynden here, not Edmure.

There's a lot of what-ifs in this chapter. How much better would things have gone if Robb had thought of Theon as a hostage and not just his best friend? What would have changed if he hadn't listened to Edmure about releasing the riverlords? Would Catelyn be so gung-ho about trading Jaime if she knew Cersei was lying about having Arya? If Catelyn had gone to the Twins, would that affect Robb's actions with Jeyne, since his mother could have gone from guest to hostage? Would Theon's capture of Winterfell have been prevented if Catelyn had gone home, willingly or at Robb's command? I also wonder if it would have made a difference if Catelyn remembered that one of Ned's orders to her was to keep Theon close in case they had need of Balon's ships (which imo was an implied threat of Theon by Ned, since I doubt he meant keep him close so Balon can learn how happy Theon is at Winterfell and offer his ships in gratitude), since it definitely feels like Robb would take his father's advice more seriously. And I wonder if Robb had time to summon Roose and the infantry to re-join them at Riverrun before leaving to invade the Westerlands, because that army was just left hanging with no orders or purpose after the Battle of the Green Fork.

Edited October 28, 2015 by Lady S.

[John Potts]

Presumably Robb left the army there to prevent the Lannisters from invading - and Roose went, "Command the only army left in the North? Of course I am happy to do that, King Robb!" 

 

Without Theon, I expect the Ironborn would still invade, but they'd probably not attack Winterfell, so Brandon & Rickon would still be alive (OK, they really ARE alive, but 90% of people think they're dead).

[benteen]

Presumably Robb left the army there to prevent the Lannisters from invading - and Roose went, "Command the only army left in the North? Of course I am happy to do that, King Robb!" 

 

Without Theon, I expect the Ironborn would still invade, but they'd probably not attack Winterfell, so Brandon & Rickon would still be alive (OK, they really ARE alive, but 90% of people think they're dead).

 

Excellent, excellent point.  Attacking Winterfell was strickly Theon's idea so that does fall directly on Robb's shoulders for making such a poor decison.

 

The attack on Winterfell was a brilliant idea by Theon and if Balon had treated him better instead of being a raging asshole, he could have benefitted from this greatly.  Of course, if Theon had just burned the place and left with his valuable hostages, they would be in an even better place.

[Holmbo]

In hindsight we can blame and credit Robb and Cat but knowing only what they knew then I don't think it was clear which was the right choice. A Balon and Robb alliance would benefit them both. Balon could have agreed and if he did Theon wouldn't have any reason to do what he did. He should have sent some men along with Theon though. Actually that's weird that he didn't, wouldn't he send along some group of people to show that he's serious?

 

 

On this issue, she appears to have done a 180 from that fateful convo with Ned and come around to Ned's position, wanting to just keep the surviving family together, avoid conflict, and ignore political realities which would prevent either (like Robert being Ned's king, not his boyhood bff), which makes sense since it's assumed Ned's personality was shaped by his traumatic losses in the Rebellion, and Catelyn's now getting a taste of that with Ned's death. A death I don't think she ever really allowed herself time to grieve for, btw, so that adding Bran and Rickon's "deaths" into the mix really did not help matters.

 

Interesting point. I think that's a good assessment.
I don't particularly enjoy Cat but she is a well crafted character and it's interesting to read other peoples reflections about her :)

[Lady S.]

In hindsight we can blame and credit Robb and Cat but knowing only what they knew then I don't think it was clear which was the right choice. A Balon and Robb alliance would benefit them both. Balon could have agreed and if he did Theon wouldn't have any reason to do what he did. He should have sent some men along with Theon though. Actually that's weird that he didn't, wouldn't he send along some group of people to show that he's serious?

An alliance with Balon wasn't a bad idea, but the way Robb went about it was, it would have been more effective to offer to release Theon only after Balon had done his part with the ships. The only reason that Robb had to release Theon free and clear just to deliver a message was because Theon was his friend, and he couldn't think of him as his hostage. We only see Catelyn's reaction to this plan because she's the PoV, but I can't imagine any of his lords wanted to set Theon free to make the alliance either, most of them probably fought to put down Balon's first rebellion and they had no personal connection to Theon to think of him as anything but a hostage. Since Robb and everyone else assumed Balon still cared about Theon, and they had no way of knowing otherwise, it was believed Theon's being held by the Starks was what kept Balon quiet for the past ten years, and seemingly valuable hostages shouldn't just be released as gifts of good will to untrustworthy potential allies.

[Holmbo]

But how long was he supposed to be a hostage? I agree it sounds smarter to have a first negotiation before releasing Theon.

[Lady S.]

It's never said, but it doesn't seem Ned had any plans to release him anytime soon.

[nodorothyparker]

An alliance with Balon and the Iron Islands wasn't a bad idea, but I've always read it as something that never would have happened regardless of whether Robb sent Theon or someone else.  Theon only took things a step farther than they might have otherwise gone and immediately betrayed the Starks and went after Winterfell.  And the definition of "betrayed" there I suppose depends on who you ask.   Robb was operating under the false assumption that all the years of good behavior since the last rebellion had made the Iron Islanders more docile and cooperative, along with thinking that his "friendship" with Theon was much more than it was.

 

Balon had clearly been brooding on all the wrongs done him for awhile and had been waiting for when the time looked right to stage another rebellion.  With the Iron Throne occupied with the Baratheon brothers and the war in the Riverlands, no one in Kings Landing was paying serious attention to him.  Ned was dead and his 15-year-old heir and most of his bannermen were gone from the North, leaving it mostly wide open.  So of course it looks ripe for the taking.

 

Cat is a character who's sometimes really difficult to like, but she's extremely well written and I can always kind of understand her thought process even when she's painfully wrong.  Theon's much the same way.  He can be a real asshole but you can clearly see the absolute mindfuck that was done to him being Balon's maybe heir and a captive NotStark.  And that's before Really Bad Things start to happen to him.

[benteen]

An alliance between the North and the Ironborn would have been a great idea if Balon wasn't such a flaming idiot.  Seriously, it's amazing the rest of the Seven Kingdoms have allowed the Ironborn to exist with all the crap that they pull.  Robb shouldn't have released his only bargaining chip in Theon (though I agree it wouldn't have mattered) and he was crazy to ask a usurper like Balon to swear alliegience to another usurper like himself.  But Balon doomed his cause to failure by isolating his only potential ally.

 

Theon was right to throw in Ser Rodrik's face that he was a captive under a sword when he was at Winterfell.

[Avaleigh]

Tyrion II

 

Tyrion has taken the best cook in King's Landing into his service and now he's wining and dining Lord Janos Slynt. Janos definitely likes to get his drink on and seems to be enjoying himself. He's really into this Dornish red that Tyrion has provided.

 

Janos thinks that Tyrion is pretty funny and tells him that he has a way with words. He continues to drink away and Tyrion sees just how drunk Janos is when he starts dribbling wine down the front of his clothes. Tyrion has decided to only drink a little this evening. 

 

Janos says that he's never eaten half so well before and jokes about trying to take the cook with him to Harrenhal. Tyrion replies that wars have been fought over less and the two men share a laugh.

 

Tyrion tells Janos that he's a bold man to have accepted the supposedly cursed Harrenhal, and Janos asks Tyrion if he should really fear a pile of stones. Then Janos starts babbling about how men have to be bold in order to rise the way he has. Janos looks at Tyrion and tells him that he can see that he's a bold man too even if he is small. Tyrion tells Janos that he's too kind and asks him if he'd like some more wine. Janos declares that bold men can drink as much as they want so Tyrion fills his cup to the brim.

 

Now that Janos is nice and drunk, Tyrion starts asking him about the names he's put forward to be his replacement as Commander of the City Watch. Tyrion wants to know why Ser Jacelyn Bywater isn't a candidate considering his solid history, and Janos claims that the men don't like Bywater because he's a rigid cripple.

 

Tyrion points out that the people don't love Slynt's first choice Allar Deem and Janos replies that Deem is feared in the streets of King's Landing and claims that this is better. Tyrion asks Janos about an incident involving Deem where he ended up killing a mother and her newborn baby, and Slynt immediately leaps to the guy's defense saying that he was only doing his duty. Slynt admits that he chose Deem for the job because he knew Deem wouldn't flinch from having to do something so horrible. Slynt makes a comment about how the woman was 'only some whore' anyway, and Tyrion immediately begins thinking of Shae and Tysha and all of the other prostitutes he's been with over the years.

 

Janos is enjoying the cheese that Tyrion offers him and Tyrion tells him to enjoy this food while he can since it'll soon be harder and harder to get with the war raging on and Renly being recognized as King in Highgarden.

 

Tyrion wonders who sent Janos after the prostitute and her baby but Janos refuses to say and accuses Tyrion of trying to slyly trick him into betraying a confidence. He claims it'll take more than wine and cheese to get him say more than he's supposed to say.

 

Tyrion tells Janos that his armor will be tough to fill and mentions that the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch is having a similar problem in terms finding a good man to take his place. Tyrion smiles and says that Lord Mormont would likely sleep easier if he had guys like Slynt and Deem on his team.

 

Janos laughs louder than ever and says there's a small chance that he'll ever join the Night's Watch. Tyrion replies that life is full of surprises and mentions how Ned Stark couldn't possibly have predicted that his life would reach its end on the steps of Baelor's Sept. Janos laughs after Tyrion says this and points out that there are few who weren't surprised by what happened there.

 

Tyrion says that it's a pity he wasn't in the city during Ned's execution and mentions that he heard even Varys was surprised. Janos practically chokes during his laughter regarding Varys' surprise and says that even 'The Spider' didn't know it was coming. Tyrion asked how Varys could have possibly known considering that he'd helped to persuade Cersei to allow Ned to take the black.

 

Janos says that the King commanded that Ned be executed and Tyrion points out that Joffrey is thirteen years old. Janos replies that thirteen or not, Joffrey is still the Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Tyrion smiles as he agrees that Joffrey is the Lord of at least one or two of the kingdoms.

 

Tyrion asks to have a look at the spear shaped clasp that fastens Janos' cloak and asks if he drove the spear into Stark's back or if he ordered some other man to do it instead. Janos admits that he gave the command and insists that he'd do it again saying that Lord Stark was a traitor. He mentions that Stark actually had the nerve to try to buy him off and Tyrion replies that Stark clearly had no idea that Janos' loyalty had already been purchased.

 

Janos asks Tyrion if he's drunk after he makes the comment about Janos having already been bought and says that he won't sit there and have his honor be questioned. Tyrion asks what honor Janos has to question, so Slynt stands and replies that he doesn't like Tyrion's tone. He refers to Tyrion as 'Imp' and reminds him that he's the Lord of Harrenhal. He asks Tyrion who the hell he thinks he is to chastise him in the way he's doing.

 

Tyrion tells Janos that he knows perfectly well who he is and then asks him how man sons he has. Janos calls Tyrion a dwarf and asks him what his sons have to do with this.

 

"Dwarf?" His anger flashed. "You should have stopped at Imp. I am Tyrion of House Lannister, and someday, if you have the sense the gods gave a sea slug, you will drop to your knees in thanks that it was me you had to deal with, and not my lord father. Now, how many sons do you have?"

 

Something starts to snap into focus for Janos and he's beginning to realize that this conversation is serious and has been the entire time. He's all nervous now and stammers that he has three sons and a daughter. He begins to plead. Tyrion tells him that he doesn't need to beg and says that no harm will come to his children. The younger boys will be fostered as squires and if they do well hopefully they'll become knights eventually. The eldest son will inherit Slynt's title, as well as the tacky sigil, and lands will be found for him so that he can begin building his seat. The eldest son will not be getting Harrenhal and it will be up to him to make a marriage for his sister when the time comes.

 

Janos is pale and scared and can't fully bring himself to ask Tyrion what is to become of him. Tyrion tells Janos that he'll be taking a ship that will take him to Eastwatch-by-the-Sea. He tells Janos to give Lord Mormont his regards when he sees him.

 

Once Janos realizes that he isn't going to be executed, he goes back to having attitude with Tyrion and even suggests that it'll be Tyrion who ends up on the ship headed for the Wall. Slynt claims to have a lot of friends and seems to think that Littlefinger and Cersei are among them. Janos also wants to know what Joffrey will have to say about him being sent away.

 

As Janos turns to leave he soon finds himself face to face with Ser Jacelyn Bywater, the new Commander of the City Watch. Ser Jacelyn and six other gold cloaks are there to make sure that Janos gets onto that ship. Tyrion gives Ser Jacelyn the names of the six men that Janos recommended and wants them to be on the ship as well. Ser Jacelyn smiles as he sees the names and says that it will be done. Tyrion gives one last instruction and says that it would be fine if Deem ended up being swept overboard before the ship makes it to the Wall. Ser Jacelyn says that northern waters can be very stormy indeed and bows to Tyrion before leaving.

 

Tyrion is alone now and drinking what's left of the Dornish red. Once the servants finish clearing, Varys glides in and compliments Tyrion on a job well done. He then asks if he can have some of the wine that Slynt enjoyed so much.

 

Tyrion knows that Cersei must have ordered the gold cloaks to go to the brothel to kill that baby and soon realizes that Varys knew this all along. Varys says that he wasn't sure how Tyrion would react if he were to tell him the truth and asks his forgiveness. Punishing men like Slynt and Deem feels hollow to Tyrion when he realizes that he isn't going to be able to do anything to put Cersei's actions in check.

 

Tyrion insists that Varys will tell him all that he knows and this makes Varys smile. He says that it would take a long time for him to tell Tyrion everything he knows. Tyrion says that Varys didn't know enough to save this little baby's life and Varys admits that he miscalculated. He honestly didn't think that the child would be in danger and didn't think that it would pose any sort of threat. Varys mentions that the prostitute was young and had been in love with Robert.

 

Thinking about the dead prostitute has Tyrion's thoughts turn to Shae and Tysha and he wonders aloud if any whore can truly be capable of love. He thinks about how he's set up Shae in a large house and how she has servants to see to her needs, guards to protect her, clothes, and jewels. She even has a bird from the Summer Isles 'to keep her company'. Shae doesn't seem completely satisfied though and tells Tyrion that she'd like to be of more help to him. 

 

As he goes to reach for more wine, Tyrion remembers drunk!Janos from earlier and decides to pass. He determines that Cersei was telling the truth about how the original plan was to have Ned sent to the Wall only Joffrey screwed everything up.

 

Varys says now that Tyrion has the loyalty of the City Watch that he should be able to put an end to any future follies of Joffrey's. He suggests that Ser Jacelyn will be obedient and quite grateful for his new position. Tyrion wonders who Ser Jacelyn will feel grateful towards and thinks to himself that he still doesn't trust Varys for a second. He admits that Varys is valuable though and asks the eunuch why he's being so helpful.

 

Varys replies that Tyrion is the Hand and Varys is trying to serve the realm. Tyrion brings up the two dead Hands that came before him and Varys says that he helped them both as best as he could. Tyrion thinks that he's likely going to be the next Hand to die in office and Varys says he doesn't think that's going to happen. He asks Tyrion about the riddle he posed to him the last time they spoke and Tyrion admits that he has considered the riddle once or twice. They discuss where true power lies and Varys asks who truly killed Ned Stark, the one who gave the command, the one who ended up swinging the sword, or someone else altogether?

 

Tyrion just wants Varys to answer the damned riddle so Varys obliges and says that "Power resides where men believe it resides." Tyrion asks Varys if he thinks that power is merely a trick. 

 

"A shadow on the wall," Varys murmured, "yet shadows can kill. And ofttimes a very small man can cast a very large shadow."

 

Tyrion smiled. "Lord Varys, I am growing strangely fond of you. I may kill you yet, but I think I'd feel sad about it."

 

Varys says that he will take Tyrion's comment as high praise and Tyrion feels compelled to ask Varys what he's all about. Varys again claims that he's there to be a loyal servant to the realm.

 

Tyrion brings up the fact that Varys is a eunuch and says that he thinks that he'd rather be a dwarf than a eunuch. He thinks about how he could have a wife and family if he really wanted to but it isn't the same for Varys. He asks Varys who he is and why he was cut in the first place.

 

Varys continues to smile as he looks at Tyrion but Tyrion sees something in his eyes that suggests Varys is not amused. Varys says that the tale of his cutting is long and sad and they have more important things to discuss at the moment. He tells Tyrion about a ship master who is going to join up with Stannis in three days unless they stop him. Tyrion agrees to let the man have a taste of Joffrey's justice so that he can be made an example of.

 

The Redwyne brothers have bribed a guard to help them escape onto a ship so Tyrion says that the guard is to be sent to the Wall and extra men are to be placed around the ship that the Redwynes planned on taking just in case they find some other guard who is willing to help them out.

 

Tyrion then learns that his man Timett has just killed the son of a wine merchant. Timett accused the guy of cheating at a game they were playing and when Tyrion asks if the man really was cheating, Varys says that he's sure beyond a doubt that he was. Tyrion says if the guy was cheating then Timett basically did all of the honest men in the city a favor.

 

Varys also mentions that there are a lot of new religious arrivals in the city who are causing unrest by talking about doom and destruction to anyone who will listen. Tyrion says that he's fine with letting these guys rant and doesn't think they're anything to worry about.

 

Tyrion is also told about Ser Balon Swann making a joke during a dinner at Lady Tanda's. When Lord Rosby makes a toast to the King, Ser Balon is said to have remarked that they'll each need three cups to do the toast properly. A lot of people present laughed but Tyrion doesn't see what the big deal is and tells Varys that he isn't interested in hearing about this sort of 'treasonous table talk'. Varys responds that Tyrion is as wise as he is gentle and soon takes his leave.

 

Once Varys is gone, Tyrion sits and wonders how Cersei is going to take the news that he's had Janos sent to the Wall. Apart from telling on him to their father, Tyrion doesn't think that there's much Cersei can do about it. He thinks he should have enough men to protect him but then considers that Ned was probably under the same impression back when he still held the post.

 

Bronn is waiting for Tyrion in Tyrion's solar and immediately asks him about Slynt. Tyrion says that Janos should be bound for the Wall in the morning. Bronn next tells Tyrion about the incident with Timett and mentions that Timett actually ripped the cheater's throat out with his bare hands. Apparently, the cheater didn't know who he was dealing with and thought that Timett would be easy to fool since he only has one eye.

 

Tyrion isn't thrilled about hearing all of the grisly details of Timett's latest kill and asks Bronn how his recruiting is going. Bronn says that it's going well and tells Tyrion that he's just recruited three new men. Tyrion asks how Bronn knows which men to choose and Bronn explains how he goes about deciding and what sorts of questions he asks.

 

Tyrion suddenly asks Bronn if he'd kill a baby girl without question or hesitation if he were ordered to do so. Bronn says that he wouldn't do it without question and says that he'd first want to know how much money he'd be getting.

 

And why would I ever need your Allar Deem, Lord Slynt? Tyrion thought. I have a hundred of my own. He wanted to laugh; he wanted to weep; most of all, he wanted Shae.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Avaleigh

[polyhymnia]

I am almost caught up and I hadn't noticed the Tarth at Winterfell the last time I read this.  I also would have loved to see how a fight between Arya and Gendry would have gone down.

[Avaleigh]

It was nice to have a Tyrion chapter since his early ones in the series tend to have a lot of humor. 

 

I do question the wisdom of sending Janos to the Wall with friends. Maybe it would have been a better idea to send Deem and Slynt and keep an eye on the other five. Have Slynt arrive at the Wall alone and have to figure out how to make friends on his own. Instead he ended up having all of these guys who used to have to answer to him follow him to the Wall. I'm sure he bitched to them and swore that he'd figure out a way to get everything back, blah, blah. I'm sure they humored him and he never changed. He's the same man that we later see when he finally gets his just desserts in ADWD. He mocks the person who is ordering him to do something he doesn't want to do. He feels fear once he starts to realize the situation is serious. Then he's defiant and thinks that he'll be able to get out of it. 

 

I laughed when Janos mentioned Littlefinger and Cersei as being friends. Heh, Littlefinger even gets his title. 

 

Tyrion's Mountain men are certainly making themselves known in the city. I'll admit that my first thought was that Timett somehow misunderstood how the game was played. 

 

Tyrion is very hung up on Shae. 

[Lady S.]

It was nice to have a Tyrion chapter since his early ones in the series tend to have a lot of humor. 

 

I do question the wisdom of sending Janos to the Wall with friends. Maybe it would have been a better idea to send Deem and Slynt and keep an eye on the other five. Have Slynt arrive at the Wall alone and have to figure out how to make friends on his own. Instead he ended up having all of these guys who used to have to answer to him follow him to the Wall. I'm sure he bitched to them and swore that he'd figure out a way to get everything back, blah, blah. I'm sure they humored him and he never changed. He's the same man that we later see when he finally gets his just desserts in ADWD. He mocks the person who is ordering him to do something he doesn't want to do. He feels fear once he starts to realize the situation is serious. Then he's defiant and thinks that he'll be able to get out of it. 

 

Maybe reading these books gets me feeling ruthless, but I was wondering why he didn't have Slynt and Deem both sent overboard. He thinks about how it's not justice because Cersei is the one truly responsible for these murders, but doesn't this same hitman/boss logic apply to Slynt and Deem? Is Slynt any less guilty than Deem because he didn't personally get his hands dirty? Why does Deem in particular deserve the death penalty, especially if he's not much worse than Bronn? Does Tyrion actually think Slynt will be more useful to Mormont? He's already ruthless enough to order creeps killed in secret, so I don't really understand the selective mercy here. Idk, maybe I'm overthinking his decision, it just feels like Janos is only sent to the Wall so Jon can be the one to kill him, which is much more satisfying.

 

A question I wanna ask here for all the original readers, before the show, did you imagine the bastard murders to include every black-haired urchin in King's Landing? Because I believe that this chapter and the previous Arya one with the goldcloaks after Gendry is all we hear of the bastard hunt in the books. So it would seem Cersei only put a hit out on Gendry and baby Barra. Varys mentions sending only Gendry out of harm's way, and only discusses Barra's murder with Tyrion here. Not that the quantity minimizes Cersei's guilt or the horror of child murder, but it makes sense to me that those two would be the only targets, as Cersei would have known about them from Jon Arryn/Stannis's and later Ned's public visits to them. It's unlikely she had a master list of every local woman Robert knocked up, as he was too busy of a womanizer for her to keep track, and I doubt she cared that much until Jon Arryn/Stannis took an interest. So I think it's possible there are more surviving Baratheon bastards out there than the 3 we have confirmation of (Gendry, Edric and Mya), it's just unlikely they'll ever come into play. (There could be a possible 13 left if Barra and the twins at Casterly Rock that Littlefinger mentioned to Ned were the only causalities of Cersei's.)

 

This is one of my favorite Tyrion scenes and the show sharpened the dialogue, for the most part ("What honor is that?" became "I'm not questioning your honor, Lord Janos, I'm denying its existence."), but I do really miss where he makes Janos count out his kids and reminds him he's Tywin's son and that Janos should be grateful he's not facing Tywin. The bit about Joff being lord over one or two of the 7 kingdoms was a great line too.

 

It's funny that Balon Swann was the one joking about 3 kings, since his family was hedging their bets with different kings. I remember Jaime asking him in their Kingsguard meeting about his father refusing to call the banners and his brother serving Renly then Stannis until Blackwater, then making him promise he wouldn't do as Jaime did if he ever had to choose between king and family.

[benteen]

Definitely an awesome moment for Tyrion though one that almost backfires for Jon at the Wall later on.  Tyrion couldn't have imagined that Mormont would be killed...he definitely would have kept Slynt in check.

 

This is the last time I recall where it is discuss who was the one who convinced Joffrey to execute Ned.

 

Tyrion really should have executed Littlefinger.  I can't help but wonder what would have happened if he had sent LF to the Wall.  Would LF had been able to talk himself out of that once he was out of Tyrion's site?  He certainly had many "friends" who could have rescued him.  The Wall is an area where I don't think LF could have survived though I could see him trying to deal with the Wildlings as a last resort.

[Holmbo]

Another implied Bob bastard is Bell (I think her name was) whom Arya and Gendry met at the in with the brotherhood.

I'm always in favor of more people going to the wall. Sending LF there would have made for some great interactions. Though I guess GRRM had other plans for him.

[polyhymnia]

I love that Varys got to keep a lot of his dialogue from these chapters - mostly because Conleth has been so amazing as that character.  I forgot (again) that it was the new commander of the gold cloaks that escorted Slynt to the boat and not Bronn.

 

Cat needed her own minor spying agency - she could have sent a couple of people with Theon.  Also, it really make no sense (as was just discussed) that Theon goes up there completely alone.

 

ETA:  This really belongs in a discussion about Theon later but it makes no sense to me, after meeting Balon Greyjoy, that he would delay any attack on the North because of Theon.  He obviously does not consider him a son anymore (and I don't think this just springs up during their reunion) and was probably just waiting for a weak moment - Ned dead, bannermen south, stupid 15-yr-old in charge, time to stir it up again.

Edited October 30, 2015 by polyhymnia

[WearyTraveler]

I'm late to this party! I didn't know we had started and only found out today, but I'll try to catch up.

 

Lady S. I think that Tyrion didn't have Janos go overboard because he was made a Lord, while Deem wasn't.  Two deaths are more suspicious than one and if one of them is a Lord maybe the King is bound to take an interest, particularly since this King made Janos a Lord.  In short, I think the decision was more political than moral.

[nodorothyparker]

It's almost a throwaway, but I like that we're getting early seeds here for the Sparrows and the problems they're going to be later on.  I'm as guilty as anyone sometimes of getting aggravated with Martin for including so Many. Freaking. Details. but sometimes it's really fun to see that nearly everything that he throws out there shows up again later, even if it's several books later.

 

I'm never really sure whether I like Varys or whether I should, but I do appreciate that he never really gives a straight answer to anyone but he doesn't really lie either.  He gives Tyrion here the same answer he gave Ned when he asked who Varys serves:  The realm.   It manages to sort of imply he's on your side as hand but it's also nicely noncommittal in suggesting that he won't be if he decides it's no longer in the realm's best interests to be.  I also like that the show managed to keep a lot of his dialogue about where power resides because I think it actually tells you quite a lot about this whole series.

 

I was reading this book concurrently with the airing of the second season, and I don't think I would have thought the murder of the bastards was more than the baby and maybe a couple of others and the hunt for Gendry without the show telling me.  At least I remember being taken aback by it when I saw it onscreen, if that means anything.

Edited October 31, 2015 by nodorothyparker

[benteen]

I liked Ser Jacelyn Bywater but having Bronn command the City Watch on the show was a logical and correct move.

[Holmbo]

Lady S. I think that Tyrion didn't have Janos go overboard because he was made a Lord, while Deem wasn't.  Two deaths are more suspicious than one and if one of them is a Lord maybe the King is bound to take an interest, particularly since this King made Janos a Lord.  In short, I think the decision was more political than moral.

 

I wonder if morals does play a part though. Tyrion usually consider common people less worth than nobles. Though Janos is an upjumped noble so perhaps it wouldn't be a factor.

[nodorothyparker]

Almost everybody in this universe considers commoners or smallfolk to be worth less.  They generally aren't given much consideration about much.  And while there's a fair bit of derision for people who have been upjumped above their birth (see Ser Davos Seaworth) that Tyrion is often as guilty of as anyone else, they usually are treated better.  Nobody much cares if a commoner goes missing or somehow falls overboard.

[Holmbo]

Yes hence why someone would start asking questions if a lord disappeared, I agree. I'm just saying perhaps there's some moral reasoning as well behind him not killing Janos.

[Lady S.]

I love that Varys got to keep a lot of his dialogue from these chapters - mostly because Conleth has been so amazing as that character.  I forgot (again) that it was the new commander of the gold cloaks that escorted Slynt to the boat and not Bronn.

 

The Bywater to Bronn change was one of the more simple and easy substitutions on the show, but when I read it, it really does make more sense to promote someone trustworthy from within than asking them to follow a no-name sellsword. Funny how Slynt says the men don't like Bywater but he has no problem taking charge to get rid of Janos, maybe he and his corrupt cronies were just a powerful minority without a lot of true and loyal supporters. Tyrion wonders if he's just replacing LF's man with Varys's, but Ser Jacelyn appears to be one of the fairly decent knights, so I guess, good choice, Varys.

 

It's almost a throwaway, but I like that we're getting early seeds here for the Sparrows and the problems they're going to be later on.  I'm as guilty as anyone sometimes of getting aggravated with Martin for including so Many. Freaking. Details. but sometimes it's really fun to see that nearly everything that he throws out there shows up again later, even if it's several books later.

Yeah, the religious unrest with new arrivals to the city. Even if they weren't the same people as the Sparrows, that's an important seed planted.

 

Lady S. I think that Tyrion didn't have Janos go overboard because he was made a Lord, while Deem wasn't.  Two deaths are more suspicious than one and if one of them is a Lord maybe the King is bound to take an interest, particularly since this King made Janos a Lord.  In short, I think the decision was more political than moral.

Yes, that must be it, though I doubt Joffrey or Cersei would ever have cared much what happened to him. But the normal reaction would be to punish the lowest ranking person worse, even if Tyrion probably still thought of Janos as a commoner more than a noble.

[Avaleigh]

Arya III

 

It's taking Arya and the others ages to get anywhere because the path they're taking is narrow and snakelike so the wagons keep getting stuck.

 

Arya keeps looking over her shoulder and is convinced that the gold cloaks will be catching up to them at any moment. She grabs the hilt of Needle every time she hears a noise during the night. She doesn't trust the sentinels because she's able to sneak around them without being heard or noticed. When Lommy is on guard duty, she's able to climb right over his head without him ever taking notice of her presence. She thinks about jumping down to scare him but refrains from doing it because she knows he'd wake up the entire camp and she doesn't want Yoren to beat her with a stick again.

 

Gendry is being treated like he's somebody special by all of the other orphan boys now that they know he's wanted by the Queen. Gendry isn't interested in the attention and insists he didn't do anything wrong and certainly not to the Queen. Arya notices that while Gendry frequently polishes his bull horned helm, she's never actually seen him wear it before.

 

Lommy guesses that Gendry is the bastard of Ned Stark and Arya immediately interjects and says that he isn't. She thinks about how her father only had one bastard and feels the usual pangs about wanting to go home to Winterfell. She wants to just ride home on her own but decides to stay with the group when she faces the reality of the dangers of traveling alone.

 

Yoren doesn't think it will be safe to travel on the kingsroad until they get past the Trident so he decides that they're going to travel around the God's Eye. They've run out of the food they brought with them from King's Landing and are now forced to live off of the land. They have two poachers who have been providing the group with deer and quail while the others look for berries and other fruit. Arya manages to capture and kill a rabbit for the group to eat and most everyone, save Rorge, seems grateful for this. Arya is allowed to have an entire leg since she killed the rabbit, so she decides to share it with Gendry.

 

When the group takes some ears of corn from a field, they end up in a situation where they're surrounded by angry, scythe-wielding field hands who are demanding money for the corn that was taken. Yoren gives them a few coins and bitterly tells them that there was a time when men from the Night's Watch were feasted in each of the Seven Kingdoms, and even high lords would call it an honor to shelter a brother of Night's Watch.

 

The field hands clearly have no respect for the Night's Watch and one even tells Yoren that the sweetcorn is more than someone like him deserves after Yoren refers to them all as cravens. The field hand threatens to turn them all into scarecrows if they don't leave.

 

Everyone enjoys the corn that evening except for Yoren. He's in a bad mood and is pacing about the camp in restless fashion. The next day, the scout Koss report that there are roughly thirty men camped ahead who look as though they've been there for awhile. They're all in mail and half helms and some are injured. They only have one horse and the horse appears to be lame. Yoren thinks they'll have to travel around the men as they'd likely have their horses stolen in addition to whatever else.

 

Traveling around the soldiers takes them an extra two days out of their way but Yoren insists that the caution is worth it. He also points out that everyone is likely going to spend the remainder of their lives on the Wall so they don't exactly need to be in a rush to get there.

 

The further north they go the more the fields are guarded. Yoren curses these men for not being willing to be of help to the Night's Watch and wonders how they'll like it when the Others come to take them.

At night they see a fire burning in the north. Yoren guesses it won't touch them but feels it's worth keeping an eye on. Nobody sleeps well and they can even smell smoke from time to time, but eventually the fire burns itself out.

 

They reach the place where the village had been and see a bunch of burned bodies impaled on stakes. Yoren and two others end up rescuing two survivors. A woman with a severed arm who can only say the word 'please' and a crying two year old girl who can't seem to speak. Rorge gets a real kick out of the woman who keeps saying please and Biter begins laughing at her too.

 

Arya notices that Gendry is wearing his helm.

 

Hot Pie confesses that he's scared and Arya admits that she is too. Hot Pie confesses to 'Arry' that he was lying when he claimed that he once kicked a boy to death. He swears that he only ever sold his mother's pies.

 

Arya rode as far ahead of the wagons as she dared, so she wouldn't have to hear the little girl crying or listen to the woman whisper, "Please." She remembered a story Old Nan had told once, about a man imprisoned in a dark castle by evil giants. He was very brave and smart and he tricked the giants and escaped . . . but no sooner was he outside the castle than the Others took him, and drank his hot red blood. Now she knew how he must have felt.

 

The woman with the severed arm dies later that day and Gendry and Cutjack dig a grave for her beneath a weeping willow. Arya thinks that she can hear the woman whispering 'Please' over and over again as the wind blows through the long branches. She finds herself wanting to run from the gravesite.

 

Yoren tells them that they aren't going to have a fire that evening and they have a meagre dinner that includes 'funny' tasting water that Lommy is convinced tastes that way because there are likely dead bodies floating somewhere upstream. Hot Pie nearly hits Lommy for putting that idea out there so old Reysen ends up having to keep the boys apart.

 

Arya drinks too much of the funny tasting water just to fill her stomach with something. It takes her what seems like ages to fall asleep only to wake up again because she feels like her bladder is about to burst. Hot Pie catches her as she's about to head into the woods and tells her not to go because Yoren told them not to; he adds that he heard wolves earlier. Arya pretends that she's frightened at the idea of wolves and claims that she doesn't have to go anymore.

 

She waits until Hot Pie goes off and then runs into the woods on the other side of the camp. She goes out twice as far as she normally would and as she's peeing she realizes with a frightened shock that she's right next to an entire wolf pack. She grabs Needle and thinks about how stupid she's been and how Hot Pie will gloat when they find her half eaten body.

 

She runs back to the camp totally scared and jumps into a wagon with Yoren. She tells him she saw wolves in the woods and he doesn't seem surprised. He doesn't even look at her. Arya confesses that the wolves scared her. Yoren says that he thought her kind were fond of wolves. Arya clarifies that direwolves are different and mentions that Nymeria would have been able to save Ned from getting his head chopped off. Yoren reminds Arya that orphan boys don't have fathers.

 

Arya tells Yoren that she wishes that she were home. She thinks about how she tries to be brave but still can't help sometimes feeling like a little girl.

 

Yoren tell Arya it might have been better for all of them to have stayed in King's Landing. He thinks it seems safer in the city. Arya doesn't care, she still wants to go home.

 

Yoren says that he's been bringing men to the Wall for close to thirty years and in all that time he's lost just three men. One died of a fever, one died of a snakebite, and one died when he tried to kill Yoren in his sleep. He thinks again about how it probably would have been wiser to take a ship but he's been taking the kingsroad nearly thirty years so he thought it would be all right.

 

Yoren urges Arya to go to sleep.

 

She did try. Yet as she lay under her thin blanket, she could hear the wolves howling . . . and another sound, fainter, no more than a whisper on the wind, that might have been screams.

[benteen]

I liked Hot Pie and Arya being honest with each other about being scared.  Also the little detail about just how few men Yoren had lost in all his years of being a wandering crow.

 

The Riverlands is a grim place during war.

 

I think Arya would have been in a lot of trouble if she stayed in King's Landing and still might have ended up being married off and we know where that would lead.  Arya is still early in a long, long journey for her.  It's scary to think though that none of her family knew where she was and that's a terrible thing in this world because people can just disappear forever.

[Lady S.]

It really would have been better to take a ship north. It's kinda ridiculous to think that Ned, with a broken leg, was meant to travel north by land with the likes of Rorge and Biter. For that matter, there's no reason Ned needed to go with Yoren at all. Yoren arrived in King's Landing well before Ned's arrest, so I'd think he should have been gone earlier, as soon as got the requisite number of criminals and street urchins. Ned didn't need a black brother to escort him to the Wall, Janos and his cronies weren't sent with one, and anyone could have served as guard on his way up there. Of course, the real reason for Yoren's involvement and roadtrip is just to service Arya's plot of journeying futilely in the riverlands.

 

 

I think Arya would have been in a lot of trouble if she stayed in King's Landing and still might have ended up being married off and we know where that would lead.  Arya is still early in a long, long journey for her.  It's scary to think though that none of her family knew where she was and that's a terrible thing in this world because people can just disappear forever.

True, but she's in constant danger in the warzone, and it's basically just plot armor keeping her alive there, so it's really a lose/lose situation.

 

I think this is our first taste of a travelogue chapter, without much real plot advancement.

[polyhymnia]

Yoren's desperation at the end of that chapter is really unnerving (especially if you put yourself in Arya's shoes - responsible adults have been around to take care of her and Yoren being worried would seem so unnatural as he has demonstrated that he was a BAMF).  I really appreciate Arya's chapters and later Brienne's because they are both shedding light on the hell it would be to be a common person caught in the middle of the great Lords and their wars.  No matter who eventually wins, nothing good has come out of it for the people in the Riverlands (and other places).

 

ETA:  And to expand on that, even though I think that GRRM is sometimes too grim and bleak (not to mention GOT's adaptation of his works) this is another aspect to his fantasy series that makes it a little different.  You don't just see the battles, you see the horrible aftermath on the peasants and the land.  It does get tedious after a while, though.  To put it mildly.

Edited November 6, 2015 by polyhymnia

[Holmbo]

I agree that Yoren's travel plans are very much plot devices to get Arya to have the sword adventures she thought she wanted.

About him staying in KL to escort Ned, do we know that he was specifically told to stick around? Maybe he just decided to wait to be there for Benjen's brother. Or if they were going to take him by boat he'd hitch a ride.

[Avaleigh]

I don't have much for this chapter. I thought Arya was pretty cute with her boyfriend Gendry. I liked how she shared the rabbit leg with him.

It also occurred to me that the two poachers were probably locked up for poaching and now they're going to the Wall where they're now being given the okay to poach on the journey there. I can see both of those guys feeling a little annoyed.

I really like Yoren. The Night's Watch needs more men like him.

Davos is up next. I'm really looking forward to going through his chapters again. He's easily one of my favorite characters in this series.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Lady S.]

About him staying in KL to escort Ned, do we know that he was specifically told to stick around? Maybe he just decided to wait to be there for Benjen's brother. Or if they were going to take him by boat he'd hitch a ride.

It sounded that way when he told her in Arya I. "I was set to leave, wagons bought and loaded, and a man comes with a boy for me, and a purse of coin, and a message, never mind who it’s from. Lord Eddard’s to take the black, he says to me, wait, he’ll be going with you. Why d’you think I was there?" I'm assuming the man had to either be a disguised Varys or an agent of Varys, since he said in the last Tyrion chapter that he got Gendry out of town, and we know he was the one who persuaded Cersei to let Ned go to the Wall. But then there's no real reason Ned and Gendry needed to travel there together.

[Avaleigh]

Davos I

 

Statues representing the gods of the Faith of the Seven are being burned on Dragonstone.

 

Davos is watching everything go down along with his sons Allard and Dale. Both sons think it's a bad idea to burn the statues but Davos tells them to be silent and to remember where they are. Davos thinks that Allard would have ended up on the Wall if he'd continued on with being a smuggler, so he feels this is one more debt he owes to Stannis.

 

Hundreds of people have come to the castle gates to witness the burning and the air in general is uneasy since this is such a slap in the face to the gods that these people have been worshipping all of their lives.

 

The red woman walked round the fire three times, praying once in the speech of Asshai, once in High Valyrian, and once in the Common Tongue. Davos understood only the last. "R'hllor, come to us in our darkness," she called. "Lord of Light, we offer you these false gods, these seven who are one, and him the enemy. Take them and cast your light upon us, for the night is dark and full of terrors." Queen Selyse echoed the words. Beside her, Stannis watched impassively, his jaw hard as stone under the blue-black shadow of his tight-cropped beard. He had dressed more richly than was his wont, as if for the sept.

 

The sept at Dragonstone is where Aegon the Conqueror is said to have knelt prior to sailing but this doesn't stop the queen's men from completely trashing the place. Septon Barre curses the men who do it and ends up in a sweltering cell along with the two survivors of the four men who dared to defend their gods. Lord Sunglass shares the cell too for daring to tell Stannis that he can no longer support his claim. The other lords understand that they'll have to play ball if they don't want to end up like Lord Sunglass. 

 

Davos isn't even all that religious but seeing the statues burning makes him feel ill and he thinks to himself that Maester Cressen would have stopped it had he lived.

 

The Dragonstone gossips are saying that Cressen's death was connected to the way he went against the Lord of Light, but Davos knows that Cressen died from being poisoned. He thinks about how Melisandre's god protected her from Cressen's poisoning attempt and thinks to himself that he'd gladly kill her if he could, he just doesn't know that he'd be able to succeed if even a maester like Cressen failed in the attempt.

 

Lord Velaryon stares at Stannis as the statues burn and Davos wonders what's going through Velaryon's mind. Davos knows that a man like Lord Velaryon would never confide in him because of his low birth. He thinks about how his grandsons will likely be the ones who won't have to deal with the sting that comes from being lowborn and that they might even marry into families like Celtigar or Velaryon one day.

 

Davos thinks again about how he owes his position to Stannis and how five of his sons all have positions with Devan even being made a royal squire. His wife Marya is now a mistress of a keep with servants and woods where he can hunt. He feels that having his fingers chopped off was a small price to pay when he thinks about everything that he's been given in return. He touches the pouch around his neck that carry the bones of his fingers and thinks about how his fingers are what bring him luck. He knows that Stannis is going to need all the luck he can get if he is going to pull off taking the Iron Throne.

 

Davos takes a moment to think about how many people will burn before the war is over.

 

Melisandre was robed all in scarlet satin and blood velvet, her eyes as red as the great ruby that glistened at her throat as if it too were afire. "In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him." She lifted her voice, so it carried out over the gathered host. "Azor Ahai, beloved of R'hllor! The Warrior of Light, the Son of Fire! Come forth, your sword awaits you! Come forth and take it into your hand!"

 

Stannis walks forward at this point and his squires step up to attend to him. They help him put on a padded glove and a leather cape while Patchface starts singing his Under the Sea song.

 

Stannis then walks over and pulls a sword out of the burning statue of the Mother. Selyse starts shouting about how Stannis has now has a sword of fire and other men who are loyal to her end up joining her excited shouts about the burning sword. Melisandre names the sword of fire Lightbringer and claims that Azor Ahai has come again.

 

The sword starts burning through the glove so Stannis curses and thrusts the point of the sword into the dirt. Melisandre continues to pray to the Lord of Light and when Selyse and the other converts start chanting about how the night is dark and full of terrors, Davos briefly wonders if he owes it to Stannis to join them. He ultimately refrains. 

 

Melisandre starts singing in the tongue of Asshai and at this point the statues of the Seven are hardly recognizable anymore. Her song winds down around the same time that Stannis' patience does, and he takes Selyse by the arm and leads her back to the castle. He leaves Lightbringer behind and Davos thinks to himself that the so called Red Sword of Heroes now looks like a burnt and blackened mess. Devan and another squire collect the sword and leave with Melisandre.

 

A few of the lords who aren't considered to be the queen's men are talking quietly but stop as soon as Davos comes near. Davos thinks about how these men would strip him of all he's been given if Stannis falls.

 

Davos' sons discuss their brother Devan and then start talking about Stannis' new sigil and how it now includes a fiery heart. His son Allard thinks that it was wrong for the Seven to have been burned and Davos wonders aloud about when Allard became so devout. Davos says that they're there to do Stannis' bidding and that's all. After reminding Allard that he's the son of a smuggler, Allard replies that he's the son of a knight and tells Davos that if he can't acknowledge this then that's even more reason the others won't. Davos again insists that it isn't for them to question Stannis' bidding.

 

Davos feels that his sons don't like to remember that they're lowborn and feels that when they look at the family banner they choose not to see the onion.

 

Davos heads through the crowded port to an inn where he seeks out the Lyseni pirate and smuggler Salladhor Saan. It seems that Davos is the one responsible for recruiting Salladhor over to Team Stannis and now he's asking him for news from King's Landing.

 

Salladhor tells Davos about how Tywin sent Tyrion to the capital and makes a couple of jokes at Tyrion's expense. He says that the walls of King's Landing are strong but questions if the Lannisters will have the numbers to man them. Salladhor makes it clear that he thinks they should be able to take the city and wonders if Stannis would agree to giving him Queen Cersei as a gift. Salladhor complains that he's been away from his wives for too long and Davos reminds the pirate that he's been well paid for each day he's been away and that those women aren't his wives anyway. He assures Salladhor that there will be plenty of gold when they take King's Landing.

 

Davos isn't certain at all that they'll be able to take King's Landing let alone hold it. He considers the threats of Tywin and Renly and even Salladhor seems to think that Renly could be a serious problem down the road. He also says that there are so many kings now that he's sick of the very word. He mentions that Renly is set to march on King's Landing too and will have his new Tyrell bride with him.

 

Davos thinks that Stannis needs to be told immediately about this latest development and Salladhor tells him that he's already let Stannis know. He also mentions that he can tell Stannis disapproves of him right down to his clothes which are apparently too flamboyant for Stannis' taste.

 

Salladhor flatly tells Davos that the flaming sword Stannis was holding was not Lightbringer. The pirate asks Davos how a burnt sword is supposed to help Stannis' cause. Davos sort of tries to defend Stannis on the sword issue but Salladhor says that they should be grateful that it isn't the real Lightbringer. He tells Davos the story of how the original Lightbringer was forged and how the first two attempts ended in the steel shattering.

 

 

 

"A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. 'Nissa Nissa' he said to her, for that was her name, 'bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.' She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes.

 

He asks Davos if he sees what he means when he says that they should be glad that Stannis merely pulled an ordinary sword out of the fire. The pirate soon changes the subject and asks Davos when he thinks Stannis will consent to leave. Davos thinks they'll set sail soon if Stannis' god wills it and Salladhor notes that Davos doesn't think of Stannis' god as his own. Davos is cautious here and responds that Stannis is his King and his god.

 

Salladhor eventually excuses himself so that he can head off to dinner. He tells Davos that Stannis is shortly going to owe him another thirty thousand dragons and talks about how they'll soon be feasting in the Red Keep of King's Landing. He imagines Tyrion functioning as their singing fool. The pirate wishes that Stannis hadn't had the gods burned and thinks that he could have got a nice price for them in one of the Free Cities if he'd been permitted. He jokes that he'll forgive Stannis if it gets him a night with Cersei.

 

Once Davos is alone he starts thinking of a tourney that Robert held for Joffrey's name day where Thoros of Myr went up against Bronze Yohn Royce. He recalls how Thoros too had a burning sword but that it didn't save him from eventually being taken out by Royce who fought with an ordinary weapon.

 

Davos then thinks about the Nissa Nissa story and begins to picture his own wife Marya. When he thinks about how he wouldn't be able to kill his wife, he decides that he doesn't have what it takes to be a hero. He thinks if that's what it takes to get a magic sword then the price is a lot more than he's wiling to pay.

 

Some time after Davos returns to the Black Betha, Devan rides down to tell his father that Stannis wants to see him. Davos feels uneasy at being summoned and wonders if this means that they're going to set sail for King's Landing. He thinks that they have no hope for victory and feels that they simply don't have the numbers in comparison to their enemies.

 

When Davos arrives to see Stannis several knights and bannermen are taking their leave of the King. Lords Celtigar and Velaryon give Davos a brief nod as they leave but the others ignore him entirely save Ser Axell Florent who wants to have a word. Ser Axell served as castellan of Dragonstone for over a decade while Stannis served in King's Landing on Robert's council. These days Ser Axell is the most prominent among the queen's men.

 

Ser Axell makes some small talk and discusses the burning of the seven as though they just witnessed something beautiful. Davos doesn't think Ser Axell is trustworthy and thinks about how House Florent has declared for Renly.

 

Ser Axell continues to talk and mentions how Melisandre is always going on about how visions can be seen in the flames. Ser Axell is certain that he saw a bunch of pretty women dancing and spinning before a king as he gazed into the flames and is sure that this is a glimpse of the victory that awaits Stannis in King's Landing. Davos has to keep himself from pointing out that Stannis would have no interest in that sort of display. He replies by telling Ser Axell that he only saw fire.

 

Stannis is sitting in front of his Painted Table and asks Davos to have a look at a particular letter. Davos awkwardly has to remind Stannis that he can't read the script. Maester Pylos ends up reading the letter that declares to the realm that Stannis is the one true king of the Seven Kingdoms because all three of Cersei's children are actually products of her relationship with her twin brother Jaime Lannister.

 

After Pylos reads the letter, Stannis insists that they add a Ser before Jaime's name and asks that they take out the word beloved in reference to his brother Robert. Pylos protests that it's a harmless courtesy but Stannis insists that it would be a lie and says that he didn't love Robert any more than Robert loved him.

 

One hundred and seventeen copies of the letter are going across the realm because that's how many ravens they have at Dragonstone. Stannis orders Davos to sail around and spread the word by posting letters on the doors of septs and inns. Stannis agrees to send knights to read the words in public to the smallfolk since the majority of them are unable to read. Davos wonders if the people will believe Stannis' claims.

 

Stannis orders Maester Pylos to get to work on the letters and soon Stannis and Davos are alone. Stannis wonders what it is that Davos wanted to say that he wasn't willing to say in front of Pylos. Davos replies that he can't look at Pylos' chain without mourning for Maester Cressen.

 

Stannis tells Davos that it isn't Pylos' fault that Cressen died. Stannis admits that he didn't want Pylos at the feast and that he was angry with the maester for giving him bad counsel, but he didn't want him to die. He says he hoped that Cressen would have a few years of ease and comfort and feels that he earned that much at the very least.

 

Davos asks how the other lords responded to Stannis' letter and Stannis says that they all pretty much nodded their heads in approval like sheep save for Lord Velaryon who knows that steel is going to ultimately resolve the matter one way or the other.

 

Stannis wants Davos' opinion and Davos tells Stannis that his words are strong and to the point but he ultimately has no actual proof of the incest. Stannis says that there's proof at Storm's End in the form of Robert's bastard Edric Storm. Edric is said to be the very image of Robert and Stannis believes that if men were to see him in comparison to Joffrey and Tommen that the proof would be obvious.

 

Davos asks how men are going to see Edric if Edric is over at Storm's End and Stannis doesn't have an answer for this apart from acknowledge that the situation is difficult.

 

Stannis asks Davos what else he finds problematic about the letter and Davos straightforwardly tells him that the people of Westeros aren't going to like the declaration that this is being done in the name of the Lord of Light. Davos suggests alternative phrases to eliminate the mention of the Lord of Light and Stannis wonders aloud if Davos is getting devout on him. Davos quickly replies that he was going to ask Stannis that very same question.

 

Stannis says it sounds as though Davos doesn't have any love for Stannnis' new god and Davos admits that the Lord of Light is a stranger to him while the Seven on the other hand are quite familiar. He credits the Seven for his healthy sons and for keeping his ships safe. Stannis tells Davos that his wife Marya gave him seven healthy sons and it's not like Davos is praying to her. He says all they did this morning was burn a pile of wood.

 

Davos tells Stannis about how when he was a boy begging in King's Landing that it was the septons who would sometimes take pity on him and feed him. Davos says that the people aren't going to love Stannis if he takes away the gods they feel comfortable with in exchange for a foreign god whose very name will seem weird to them.

 

Stannis says that R'hllor isn't hard to say and points out that the people have never loved him anyway so he isn't exactly losing anything. Stannis says that he stopped believing in the gods the day he saw his parents killed when their ship broke apart across the bay. He swore to himself then that he'd never worship gods who would do something so monstrous.

 

Davos wonders why Stannis is willing to bother with the Lord of Light if he doesn't believe in the gods and Stannis admits it's because he's seen Melisandre's power. Davos wonders to himself what sort of power Melisandre has and tells Stannis that Cressen offered him wisdom. Stannis says that he didn't get anywhere using Cressen's wisdom or Davos' wiles. Davos came brack from the Stormlands empty handed and Stannis is over it. He's tired of being laughed at and feels that all he has on his side are ships and Melisandre's power. He likes that his men are afraid of her and says that half of his knights are afraid even to speak her name. He thinks that if nothing else, surely it's useful to have a woman on his side who is capable of inspiring such fear.

 

 

 

"When I was a lad I found an injured goshawk and nursed her back to health. Proudwing, I named her. She would perch on my shoulder and flutter from room to room after me and take food from my hand, but she would not soar. Time and again I would take her hawking, but she never flew higher than the treetops. Robert called her Weakwing. He owned a gyrfalcon named Thunderclap who never missed her strike. One day our great-uncle Ser Harbert told me to try a different bird. I was making a fool of myself with Proudwing, he said, and he was right." Stannis Baratheon turned away from the window, and the ghosts who moved upon the southern sea. "The Seven have never brought me so much as a sparrow. It is time I tried another hawk, Davos. A red hawk."

Edited November 19, 2015 by Avaleigh

[John Potts]

You have to admit Stannis does have a point about the Red God: R'Hllor has actually done stuff while the Seven have been silent - it's almost scientific, really. Then again, I'm a Stan-fan, so that may bias my view. And I'd forgotten that Stannis' correcting his "Manifesto" was right there in the text - even to the extent of naming somebody he definitely intends to kill (Jamie) "Ser" because he's a knight and has earned that title. Also liked seeing that Stan regrets the death of Cressen, because as I said, humiliating him like that was really a dick move on Stannis' part.

 

Avaleigh Patchface starts singing his Under the Sea song.

 

How many others couldn't help thinking of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC_mV1IpjWA when he says "Under the Sea"? It would make a surprisingly light moment in an otherwise dark episode!

[nodorothyparker]

Stannis and Davos are one of my favorite pairings of the series and this chapter really gets to the heart of who both of them are.  It also tells you a lot about why Davos is so unendingly loyal to Stannis and how well he understands how precarious his and his sons' places are in Westerosi society.  Without Stannis, they're knocked back down to no-name smallfolk and probably at least one or more members of the family end up at the Wall for smuggling.

 

Still, Davos is no fawning sycophant.  He's smart enough to know when Stannis doesn't want to hear something, but he's also quite practical and clear-eyed about how much the deck is stacked against their chances of success.  Because of this he often reads as one of the more reliable narrators of the series.  Stannis is still the middle child here, projecting all of his childhood slights onto the slights he's receiving here from the Stormlords in their defection to Renly.  I quite like his take on the gods, how they're all pretty much the same to him and if he's going to make use of one it might as well at least be one that appears to have some real teeth and power.  People can learn to pronounce R'holler if it wins him a throne.

 

The flaming sword bit never fails to get me.  He's out there basically with an oven mitt trying to make a ruined burning hunk of metal more than it is.

Edited November 19, 2015 by nodorothyparker

[benteen]

I enjoy the Stannis and Davos interaction too.

 

It always annoyed me how badly Stannis's bannermen treat Davos, the man who kept Dragonstone from starving during the Rebellion.

Edited November 19, 2015 by benteen

[DigitalCount]

This chapter, to me, is the perfect foreshadowing for

the events of The Dance of the Dragons.

That's why I came around to accepting it. I don't know how much I can say about the show in here, but I'd feel cheated if the book doesn't go that way, even if the show hadn't existed.

[vibeology]

I just love Davos. His addition to the series is one of the reasons this book is my favourite. He's just very straightforward and honest no matter the circumstances. He's such a fun pov character because he's easy to trust and he'll call Stannis out on his issues. GRRM does a great job writing these chapters because he's the character that I'm the most comfortable reading, if that makes any sense?

Stannis here going through the the fire ritual with the sword is such broad comedy. Also the relationship between Davos and Sallahdor is so great. I just love any time those two can talk business. Martin really succeeded in creating this deep long term relationship between two guys who've had each other's back for years.

[Holmbo]

Davos thought that Maester Cressen would have stopped this if he had lived is made funny by the show because there Cressen tries to stop it and is woefully ineffectual.

I agree DC

that the event seems to fit the Stannis arch. I think it's likely something similar will happen in the books. It would also explain why so many readers get the feeling that the show runners "hate Stannis". Maybe they do if they were told that would come.

Maybe we should expect Jaime to do something terrible in a later book ;)

[Lady S.]

Davos thought that Maester Cressen would have stopped this if he had lived is made funny by the show because there Cressen tries to stop it and is woefully ineffectual.

Maybe it's because I saw the show first but I really am wondering what Davos thought Cressen would or could have done to stop it, since it felt clear in the prologue he no longer had enough influence with Stannis. Yeah, Davos wasn't inside his head like us, but he knows about the murder/suicide attempt which is not the kind of thing a man does if he has other options. 

[Holmbo]

Maybe it's because I saw the show first but I really am wondering what Davos thought Cressen would or could have done to stop it, since it felt clear in the prologue he no longer had enough influence with Stannis. Yeah, Davos wasn't inside his head like us, but he knows about the murder/suicide attempt which is not the kind of thing a man does if he has other options.

I agree. I can't think of anything that he could have done to stop it. Maybe the thought is meant to illustrate Davos mindset as a lowborn. Even though he's very smart he doesn't think so of himself and maybe feels like someone who is more educated would have found a way that he cannot think of.

[Lady S.]

This chapter, to me, is the perfect foreshadowing for

the events of The Dance of the Dragons.

That's why I came around to accepting it. I don't know how much I can say about the show in here, but I'd feel cheated if the book doesn't go that way, even if the show hadn't existed.

At first I was confused how any speculated Dance of the Dragons 2.0 between Dany and Aegon could be related to Team Stannis's story, then I read the second sentence and realized you meant the ep 5.09. I definitely agree about Salla's story of Azor Ahai/Nissa Nissa foreshadowing the possibility of Shireen's death. But I would also say that if/when that happens, I find it unlikely the "real" AAR would have to do any such sacrifice in some Jon has to kill Arya scenario or something. When I read Davos's thought about not being the stuff of heroes if that was was it took to be one, I don't think we're meant to endorse that kind of thinking, where the forging of the original Lightbringer is the standard for true heroism. 

[Avaleigh]

I like seeing the dynamic between Stannis and Davos too and love all of the humor between them.

 

Getting Stannis' religious views is interesting too because he's one of the few characters who doesn't trouble to hide the fact that he doesn't really seem to believe in religion. He seems to think that it's mostly bullshit and even seeing examples of Melisandre's power, he's still not going full on fanatic like Selyse. Nor does he seem interested in obtaining more red priests. This was always curious to me that he didn't at least float the idea to bring more into his service only to have Melisandre shoot down the idea because she wants to be the one to control what Stannis knows about the religion of the Lord of Light. You'd think if Stannis thought all red priests are truly powerful that he'd want more of them on his side unless he thinks that Melisandre is exceptional compared to the others. And how would he know that unless he makes a comparison? Or maybe the comparison is to Thoros of Myr and he assumes that most red priests are like him? I can see Stannis disapproving of Thoros for drinking. Furthermore, if Stannis is trying to convert people and spread the word of the Lord of Light then that's even more reason to have more red priests enter his service. 

 

I also felt like I picked up on a touch of jealousy that the older brothers have for Devan and probably would have had for the other younger two. The younger sons are benefitting the most from their father's improved status and they probably don't even have memories of the lean years. Devan is clearly on the path to becoming a knight whereas knighthood seems like it's a pretty uncertain with the older boys. I thought it was interesting too that one of the older sons criticized Davos for calling them sons of a smuggler rather than a knight. I felt like they were both right. Davos needs to accept his new status and the kids can't forget history of how their father became known as the onion knight. 

 

Lord Velaryon is easily the most interesting of Stannis' loyal bannerman. I wonder if already wishes that he could jump ship. He certainly didn't seem impressed with the burning of the seven. 

 

This chapter, to me, is the perfect foreshadowing for

the events of The Dance of the Dragons.

That's why I came around to accepting it. I don't know how much I can say about the show in here, but I'd feel cheated if the book doesn't go that way, even if the show hadn't existed.

I agree with this. 

 

This chapter has also made me lean towards Dany being Jon's Nissa Nissa. I know many feel that Lightbringer won't need to be reforged but I think that's the main reason we got the backstory--we're going to see some version of it play out again. I'm on the fence as to whether or not Ghost will be sacrificed as well but it seems like a possibility. 

 

Thinking about Lightbringer and Dany being the Nissa Nissa--I can just totally picture her realizing what she needs to do possibly even before Jon does. Baring her left breast, she does that a lot throughout the series. ;p

 

The main line that gets me though is this one: "It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel." Who's blood would be better or more magical to use than the blood of the last pure Targaryen? I think it's building up to this for Dany and I can see an argument being made for how this satisfies both she and Jon being the ones to fulfill the prophecy. 

 

I'll admit that it's harder for me to think that Jon will have the time to think that Dany is the woman he loves best in the world since the series is two books to being over and they still haven't met yet, but that's the main difficulty I see with the theory. 

 

ETA:

 

Theon's first chapter is coming up. I'm curious about what if any sympathy I'll have for him here. I'm already pissed at Robb for ignoring Catelyn's advice about this. How does he not understand what a potential disaster this could be? If nothing else I feel like some knights loyal to Robb ought to have been sent with Theon just to make sure that shit goes according to plan. 

Edited November 24, 2015 by Avaleigh

[polyhymnia]

Velaryon being one of the loyal bannermen to Stannis interests me because they are one of the other houses that is Valyrian, correct?  So you would think that they wouldn't be quite so loyal to the usurpers line, but the Baratheons and those other families have been connected since Aegon the Conqueror.  I don't remember if he sided with Robert over Aerys/Rhaegar (or if it is even addressed).

 

Davos's skepticism about everything surrounding Stannis while having utter loyalty to Stannis is one of the most endearing things about that character.  That and his refreshing honesty.

[benteen]

If I remember correctly, in the World of Ice and Fire book written years later, the Velaryons were actually quite a powerful family a century or two earlier.