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The Official Re-Read Project: Book 2: A Clash Of Kings


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Gotta say, this is my favourite book. At the time, it seemed that it was clearing the decks - sorting out the "petty" game of politics of who sits on the throne before the double invasions of Khaleesi and the White Walkers. Obviously, Robb was still marauding through the West, but by the end of the book he had pretty much run out of steam (even if he hadn't headed for his fateful trip to The Twins), Renly was dead, Stannis was down (if not out) and it seemed that the Greyjoys were being rolled back into the sea (one reason why I was so annoyed with the future Greyjoy plot, because from having suffered from Imperial Overreach, they suddenly can conquer half the world). But at this point, I was still confident that we would soon see the Seven Kingdoms thinking "Thank God that's over!".... only for the real problems to start.

 

And in response to Dave's comment:

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What's funny is I look back at this book and can't remember anything that happens at first.  Then I remember Blackwater, Renly's murder, Theon taking over Winterfell, Tyrion acting as Hand of the King, and Arya's first brush with the House of Black and White.  I guess it just seems "uneventful" compared to A Storm of Swords.

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Isn't this also the Book where Balon dies? I know his death is reported rather than seen, so it's hard to remember exactly when that happens. Of course, if GRRM had described Balon's death, he'd undoubtedly have taken 100 pages to do it!

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  On 3/31/2015 at 6:46 PM, John Potts said:

Isn't this also the Book where Balon dies? I know his death is reported rather than seen, so it's hard to remember exactly when that happens. Of course, if GRRM had described Balon's death, he'd undoubtedly have taken 100 pages to do it!

 

No the only King to die in ACOK is Renly.

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I remember thinking that this was the strongest book as far as the storyline in KL. It really did have everything. 

 

The main things I remember from this book are the Blackwater, obviously, wildfire, the relationship between Tyrion and Cersei, Theon's bad decisions, the House of the Undying, and Jaime's conversation with Catelyn. 

 

Everything else is kind of a blur. The main thing I remember about the HotU is that I knew which door Dany should go through. I know Drogon (I think?) helped her burn the heart that was keeping all of those people alive but I don't recall any other specifics. Apart from Jaime's chat with Cat I think the HotU scene is the one I'm most looking forward to getting to once we move on to the second book. 

 

Oh, we meet Brienne in ACoK too, don't we? I don't remember anything she did apart from annoying Loras and being present for the appearance of Mel and Stannis's shadowbaby. 

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I just realized that another moment I'm looking forward to reading again because it was cut from the show was the whole business between Stannis and that badass Ser Cortenay Penrose. Penrose was a guy that even Ned would have respected. Another decision Stannis made that was totally wrong IMO.

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Theon's story is a bit weird for me, because the character work with Theon is excellent -- some of Martin's best stuff.  But it's also occurred within what is easily the most contrived plotting in the first three books, as the Ironborn function as GRRM's thumb-on-the-scale to screw over House Stark.  On rereards, Balon Greyjoy, especially, comes across as a gigantic plot device who exists only to make incredibly irrational strategic decisions to defeat the Starks, a house it doesn't even really make sense for him to hate in preferment to everybody else on the continent.  Made all the more obvious by the fact that he dies off-screen immediately after fulfilling this function.

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(edited)

I'm looking forward to reading the Theon/Reek/Winterfell/Bran/etc. stuff in this book. It was kinda confusing on the first go-around so maybe I'll get it this time.

 

(1500th post in this section of the forum)

Edited by ebevan91
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Prologue

 

Maester Cressen is checking out the red comet from the balcony of his chambers on Dragonstone. He thinks it looks like a red wound bleeding across the sky and notes that he's never seen a comet so bright before. The color is unusual too and he thinks it looks like a combination of blood and flames and the sun setting.

 

Cressen is struggling with the fact that he doesn't believe in omens because everything about this comet seems like a sign of some kind, and it's even visible during the day now. Meanwhile, steam is rising from Dragonmont and a white raven arrived the day before to signal the end of a ten year summer. Cressen feels that there are too many omens to deny and wonders what it all means.

 

Maester Pylos announces to Maester Cressen that they have visitors and says that the Princess Shireen would to see the white raven. Cressen reflects for a moment on how recently Shireen has become a princess and thinks to himself that her father is currently the king of no more than a smoking rock.

 

Pylos helps the nearly eighty year old Cressen to his chair and Cressen spends some time thinking about how Pylos will replace him one day.

 

Pylos brings in Shireen and her fool Patchface and Cressen thinks to himself that the princess is just as shy as ever. Cressen thinks that Shireen is sweet and innocent, but knows that she isn't a pretty girl. She has her dad's jaw, her mom's large ears, and nearly half of her face is disfigured because of the greyscale she suffered as a baby.

 

Shireen asks if she might see the white raven and Cressen tells her that she may. He thinks that he would never say no to Shireen and believes that the nearly ten year old girl has to be the saddest child he's ever known. He feels that Shireen's sadness is his personal shame and that she represents a kind of failure for him.

 

Cressen instructs Pylos to fetch the bird and thinks about how serious Pylos is especially for being only twenty five. He thinks what Dragonstone needs is light and humor. Cressen has lived on Dragonstone for twelve years but it's never felt like home to him. Lately he's been having nightmares and the 'red woman' has featured in them prominently.

 

Patchface starts singing his 'Under the Sea' song and Cressen thinks about what a pathetic figure the fool is. It seems that Shireen is the only one who finds Patchface to be funny and is the only one who cares if he lives or dies.

 

Cressen wonders why Shireen is up so early and the little girl tells him that she was having nightmares about dragons. She says they were coming to eat her. Cressen thinks about how Shireen has had these sorts of nightmares for as long as he can remember.

 

  Quote

“The dragons cannot come to life. They are carved of stone, child. In olden days, our island was the westernmost outpost of the great Freehold of Valyria. It was the Valyrians who raised this citadel, and they had ways of shaping stone since lost to us. A castle must have towers wherever two walls meet at an angle, for defense. The Valyrians fashioned these towers in the shape of dragons to make their fortress seem more fearsome, just as they crowned their walls with a thousand gargoyles instead of simple crenellations.” He took her small pink hand in his own frail spotted one and gave it a gentle squeeze. “So you see, there is nothing to fear.”

 

Shireen is unconvinced that dragons can't come back and asks Cressen about the comet. She says that the red woman told her mother that the comet is dragonsbreath. Shireen reasons that if the dragons are breathing then that must mean they're coming back to life.

 

Cressen is annoyed to think that the red woman could be influencing Shireen the way she's already influencing Shireen's mother. Shireen says her mother told her that the arrival of the white raven means it isn't summer anymore and Cressen confirms the truth of this. He says the white ravens only come from the Citadel and are bred to carry only the most important messages.

 

The common people say that a long summer means an even longer winter but Cressen doesn't mention this to Shireen because he doesn't want to frighten her.

 

Patchface sings his Under the Sea song and makes Shireen laugh. Pylos soon brings in the white raven and Shireen is completely delighted by how impressive it looks. Pylos introduces the raven to Shireen and she gets even more excited once she realizes that the bird can talk.

 

Patchface reacts to talk of the clever raven.

 

  Quote

“Clever bird, clever man, clever clever fool,” said Patchface, jangling. “Oh, clever clever clever fool.” He began to sing. “The shadows come to dance, my lord, dance my lord, dance my lord ,” he sang, hopping from one foot to the other and back again. “The shadows come to stay, my lord, stay my lord, stay my lord .” He jerked his head with each word, the bells in his antlers sending up a clangor

 

Shireen tells them that Patchface sings that song all the time lately and that it scares her. She wants them to make him stop.

 

Cressen thinks that there was a time when he might have silenced Patchface for good.

 

  Quote

Patchface had come to them as a boy. Lord Steffon of cherished memory had found him in Volantis, across the narrow sea. The king— the old king, Aerys II Targaryen, who had not been quite so mad in those days—had sent his lordship to seek a bride for Prince Rhaegar, who had no sisters to wed. “We have found the most splendid fool,” he wrote Cressen, a fortnight before he was to return home from his fruitless mission. “Only a boy, yet nimble as a monkey and witty as a dozen courtiers. He juggles and riddles and does magic, and he can sing prettily in four tongues. We have bought his freedom and hope to bring him home with us. Robert will be delighted with him, and perhaps in time he will even teach Stannis how to laugh.”

 

Cressen feels sad when he thinks about that letter and thinks about how Stannis never learned how to laugh. Cressen then thinks about how Lord Steffon, his wife, and more than a hundred others were killed on their return to Storm's End after their ship broke apart within sight of the castle. Robert and Stannis watched the ship go down from the parapets of Storm's End knowing that their parents were on board.

 

Bloated corpses washed up on shore for days after the shipwreck and it's on the third day the boy Patchface was found. At first they think Patchface is another corpse especially since his skin feels all cold and clammy. However, when one of the men goes to put his body in the burial cart, Patchface suddenly sits up and starts coughing up water. He is unable to tell anyone how he survived for two days at sea. The tattoos he received in Volantis leave no doubt as to his identity but the talented boy that Lord Steffon wrote about is completely gone by the time he washes up on the shores of Storm's End.

 

The castellan at the time said that the nicest thing Cressen could do for Patchface would be to put the kid to permanent sleep, but Cressen refused to do that. He's unsure if Patchface is happy to be alive or not.

 

Patchface sings some more and Cressen tells Shireen not to take the fool's words to heart.

 

Pylos interrupts and informs Cressen that Ser Davos has returned to Dragonstone and has been in conversation with Stannis for most of the evening. Cressen is annoyed that he wasn't told and thinks there was a time when Stannis would have had him woken no matter what the hour.

 

Cressen is old so it takes him a long time to make his way up all of the steps to see Stannis. He's grateful to have the help of Pylos but once they reach the Stone Drum, Cressen says that he's going to make the rest of the climb alone because he thinks it's better if he sees Stannis on his own. As he struggles up the steps he runs into Ser Davos heading down.

 

Ser Davos delivers the bad news that Storm's End won't declare for Stannis. Davos says that Cressen was right and that the people don't love him. Cressen thinks to himself that the people never will.

 

Davos goes on to tell Cressen about Renly's new Rainbow Guard and Cressen thinks to himself that a Rainbow Guard would be just the sort of thing that would appeal to Renly. He thinks about what a 'Look at me, look at me' type Renly was as a youth and how Renly was always fond of bright colors and rich fabrics. He also thinks about how Renly loved to play games and that in these games he'd play the role of dragon, wizard, a god, etc. Cressen wonders if he's the only person who truly cares for Renly.

 

Cressen thinks about how Davos earned his knighthood by smuggling in some food during the siege of Storm's End. Stannis and his men had gone through every horse, dog, and cat, and were down to eating rats when Davos was able to sneak in with onions and salt fish. This bit of food made it possible for Stannis and his men to hold out until Ned Stark and his men arrived to finally break the siege. Stannis rewards Davos with lands, a keep, and a title but he also chops off the fingers of his left hand after this in order to make Davos pay for his crimes as a smuggler. Davos was the one to insist that Stannis to the cutting himself.

 

Cressen knows that the truth of the news that he doesn't have the loyalty from the families of the Stormlands is going to be tough for Stannis to accept. He knows that if Stannis is stubborn enough to take the small host of men that he has to King's Landing that he'll most likely die there. He talks about how Stannis wants to come into the full strength of his power so that he can deal with all of his enemies. He also speaks of the streak of pride Stannis has and Davos says that his fingers will grow back before Stannis 'bends to sense'. Cressen tells Davos that he's done all he can and now it's his turn to try with Stannis.

 

Once he's inside of the Chamber with the Painted Table, Cressen is greeted coldly by King Stannis Baratheon. He calls Cressen an old man and tells him he knew he'd come whether he wanted him to or not.

 

Stannis is thirty four, balding, he earns minor ducats at a thankless job and is described by everyone as being a hard man. He grinds his teeth a lot. He doesn't mince words and flatly tells Cressen that he's and old man who's sick and needs his rest. He gives this as his reason for not summoning the maester and says he knew Cressen would find out about everything anyway as he always does.

 

Cressen mentions that he passed Davos on the stairs and Stannis responds by saying that he ought to have Davos's tongue cut out for talking to Cressen. Cressen says Davos wouldn't be much of an envoy without a tongue and Stannis replies that Davos kind of sucks as an envoy already. He's angry that the storm lords won't side with him and is especially frustrated with those who are already bold enough to declare for Renly.

 

Once Stannis brings up Renly's name, Cressen explains that Renly has the loyalty of certain storm lords because Renly has been their liege lord for the past thirteen years. This makes Stannis rant for a bit about how Storm's End should never have been given to Renly in the first place. Cressen agrees that it was unjust of Robert to deny Storm's End to Stannis but says that Robert had good reasons for sending Stannis to Dragonstone at the time. Somebody had to hold the ancestral seat of House Targaryen and Renly was a child while all of this was going on.

 

Stannis snaps that Renly is still a child. He says Renly is a child and a thief who hasn't done anything to earn the right to the throne. He tells Cressen that Renly spent the bulk of his time either joking around with Littlefinger during meetings with the small council or getting knocked off his horse in various tourneys. Stannis wonders why the gods would inflict him with brothers.

 

Stannis asks Cressen what he's supposed to tell the few bannermen he does command and Cressen says that Stannis has to remember that the Lannisters are the big enemy. He urges Stannis to make common cause with Renly but Stannis refuses and says that he won't treat with his brother while he calls himself a king.

 

Cressen then suggests Stannis team up with the new King in the North pointing out that Robb now has the strength of the North and the Riverlands. Stannis replies that Robb is another false king and asks why he should have to accept a broken realm. Cressen says that surely having half of the kingdom is better than having no kingdom at all. He also points out that it would probably be good to score points with Robb by helping him to avenge his father's death.

 

  Quote

“Why should I avenge Eddard Stark? The man was nothing to me. Oh, Robert loved him, to be sure. Loved him as a brother, how often did I hear that? I was his brother, not Ned Stark, but you would never have known it by the way he treated me. I held Storm’s End for him, watching good men starve while Mace Tyrell and Paxter Redwyne feasted within sight of my walls. Did Robert thank me? No. He thanked Stark, for lifting the siege when we were down to rats and radishes. I built a fleet at Robert’s command, took Dragonstone in his name. Did he take my hand and say, Well done, brother, whatever should I do without you? No, he blamed me for letting Willem Darry steal away Viserys and the babe, as if I could have stopped it. I sat on his council for fifteen years, helping Jon Arryn rule his realm while Robert drank and whored, but when Jon died, did my brother name me his Hand? No, he went galloping off to his dear friend Ned Stark, and offered him the honor. And small good it did either of them.”

 

Cressen tells Stannis that he understands he's been wronged but basically says that he needs to get over the past. He says if Stannis teams up with the Starks he has a good chance of winning. He also suggests that Lysa Arryn might want to see justice for her husband and might be open to the idea of a union between Shireen and her son.

 

Stannis says that Robert Arryn is sickly and confirms that Robert was supposed to be fostered on Dragonstone prior to Jon Arryn's death. He doubts that Lysa will part with Robert now that she's at the Eyrie, so Cressen proposes the idea of having Shireen sent to the Eyrie. Cressen says that Dragonstone is a sad place for a child to grow up so, Stannis considers and thinks the plan might be worth trying.

 

Just as Stannis is saying that he's open to the idea of an alliance with the Vale, Queen Selyse comes in and asks Stannis if the rightful King of the Seven Kingdoms is really going to reduce himself to begging widows and usurpers for assistance.

 

Stannis starts scowling again and says that he doesn't beg and Selyse replies that she's pleased to hear it. Selyse is an unattractive woman who has big ears, pale eyes, and a mustache to top it all off. She tells Stannis that he's the one true King and says the others should have to bow down, Renly and Robb Stark included.

 

Cressen notes that Selyse is now a follower of the Lord of Light and no longer worships the Faith of the Seven. Stannis doesn't share his wife's new faith and tells her that he needs swords as opposed to blessings.

 

Cressen thinks about how Stannis doesn't speak to Selyse with any affection. Stannis has always been uncomfortable around women and only has sex with Selyse a couple of times a year. He'd hoped for sons from Selyse but they never came.

 

Stannis asks how the Lord of Light will give him extra swords and Selyse says that Stannis would get the strength of Highdarden and Storm's End if Renly were to die. She adds that Melisandre has gazed into the flames and has seen Renly dead.

 

Cressen is shocked and appalled that Selyse seems to be talking about fratricide and pleads with Stannis to listen to him. Stannis says that he has listened to Cressen and how it's time for him to listen to Selyse. The maester leaves them and feels even more troubled. 

 

Once Cressen is back in his rooms he goes over to his balcony and thinks about how he's been a kind of father figure to Robert, Stannis, and Renly over the years. He wonders if it means that he's done a terrible job especially if he ends up standing by to watch one of the brothers kill the other. He decides he isn't going to let that happen and thinks that Melisandre is a bigger danger than Queen Selyse.

 

Melisandre is a sorceress and shadowbinder in addition to being a priestess to R'hllor. She is said to be from Asshai.

 

Cressen really doesn't like the idea of Melisandre's brand of madness getting to the mainland of Westeros. He decides that he's going to use a poison called The Strangler to take the red woman out once and for all. Cressen thinks that if there are gods then surely they will forgive him for what he is about to do. He goes to take a nap before the feast and thinks about the red comet again. He wonders if the comet could be an omen that a murder is about to happen.

 

When Cressen wakes back up he's slept later than he intended and he wonders why nobody bothered to wake him. He calls for Pylos but the young man is nowhere to be seen and Cressen thinks this is odd.

 

Inside the Great Hall of Dragonstone, Cressen makes his way to the high table where Stannis is only to have Patchface crash into him and cause them both to fall to the ground. The hall rings with laughter and for a moment poor Cressen fears that he's broken his hip again. He feels a strong pair of arms help get him to his feet and when he goes to thank the knight he thinks is helping him, he realizes that the strong arms belong to none other than Melisandre.

 

Melisandre wears red from head to toe. Her hair is an unusual shade of copper and even her eyes are red. Many think that Melisandre is beautiful but Cressen doesn't agree and mostly thinks she's terrible.

Cressen thanks Melisandre for helping him.

 

  Quote

“A man your age must look to where he steps,” Melisandre said courteously. “The night is dark and full of terrors.”

 

Cressen tells Melisandre that only children fear the dark and she says that she has a riddle for him. “A clever fool and a foolish wise man.”  After she says this she takes Patchface's goofy looking helm and places it on Cressen's head so people start laughing at Cressen again. Cressen is angry and removes the helm telling Melisandre that he needs no crown but truth. Melisandre replies that there are some truths in the world that aren't taught in Oldtown.

 

Cressen follows Melisandre to the high table and as he looks up he realizes that Pylos is sitting in his usual seat. Pylos seems somewhat embarrassed and tells Cressen that Stannis ordered him to allow him to rest. He says Stannis feels Cressen is not needed at the feast. Of all the lords and knights who are present only Ser Davos seems to feel bad about the way Cressen is being humiliated.

 

Stannis again addresses Cressen as 'old man' and tells him that he's too ill and confused to be of use to him anymore. He says that Pylos will counsel him from now on and says that this makes sense since Pylos has already taken over the raven related side of Cressen's duties because Cressen can't manage the many steps anymore. He tells Cressen that he won't have him killed in his service.

 

  Quote

Maester Cressen blinked. Stannis, my lord, my sad sullen boy, son I never had, you must not do this, don’t you know how I have cared for you, lived for you, loved you despite all? Yes, loved you, better than Robert even, or Renly, for you were the one unloved, the one who needed me most. Yet all he said was, “As you command, my lord, but . . . but I am hungry. Might not I have a place at your table?” At your side, I belong at your side . . .

 

Ser Davos jumps up and says that he'd be honored if Cressen would sit next to him. Cressen starts thinking about how he's going to slip the poison into Melisandre's drink, and Davos informs Cressen that Stannis has every intention of pressing forward no matter what the numbers are because Melisandre has looked into flames and seen him victorious. Davos believes that they're on the track to meeting watery graves.

 

Cressen tries again to talk to Stannis about making common cause with the Starks and Arryns but Stannis won't hear of it. Cressen thinks to himself that he's lost Stannis.

 

Cressen tries to argue that Stannis cannot win without allies but Selyse says that Stannis has the Lord of Light on his side. Cressen points out that gods aren't necessarily reliable allies and says the Lord of Light doesn't have much power in Westeros anyway. Melisandre replies that if Cressen believes that then he ought to put Patchface's helm back on. Selyse thinks this is super funny so she commands Maester Cressen to put the fool's helm back on.

 

Stannis starts grinding his teeth and orders Patchface to give Cressen his helm. Cressen can't believe what he's hearing and thinks to himself that Stannis was always hard but never deliberately cruel. Patchface places the bucket-helm back on Cressen's head and Selyse suggests that Cressen ought to sing his counsels to Stannis from now on.

 

Stannis tells Selyse that she's going too far and says that Cressen has served him well. Cressen thinks to himself that he'll serve Stannis well until the very end. He puts the poison in a cup of wine and only Davos sees what he's done. He asks Melisandre to share a cup of wine with him so that they can toast to the Lord of Light. Melisandre looks at Cressen for a moment and tells him they can if he wishes.

Davos tugs at Cressen's sleeve and asks him what he's doing but Cressen insists he's doing what needs to be done.

 

Cressen meets Melisandre and she smiles at him and tells him that it isn't too late for him to spill the wine. Cressen says that he won't so Melisandre takes the cup from him and drinks most of its contents. She then hands it back to Cressen and tells him it's his turn. Cressen gives himself the courage to drink. After Cressen finishes the drink, Melisandre says that the Lord of Light does have a presence in Westeros. The ruby she wears on her throat is shimmering.

 

Cressen tries to reply but he can no longer speak. The poison is true to its name and it's as though an invisible hand is strangling the maester. He falls to the ground and is looking up at Melisandre. She looks down on him in pity and clearly isn't feeling the effects of the poison.

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This prologue is *long*. I enjoyed it but I swear it just kept going. The upcoming Arya chapter is a lot shorter. 

 

Stannis comes across like an asshole here. I didn't remember him treating Cressen so disrespectfully. That was shocking. The moment with Patchface's helm is something that I would expect from Joffrey not Stannis. Very sad that he would treat Cressen that way when Cressen has been a kind of father to him for so many years. 

 

He's so sour and bitter about every aspect of his life. You might have thought that Ned had done something to him. I'm glad that the show changed his attitude towards Ned because that was something I liked about the character. 

 

Melisandre gave Cressen a chance and told him that he could just dump the wine. At that moment Cressen should have know that the gig was up and he basically killed himself for no reason. She'd already taken the poison so why wouldn't Cressen accidentally drop the cup before drinking? That's another detail I like that the show changed. Having Mel drink after he does. This just makes Cressen seem like a fool. 

 

He's very sweet to Shireen so that was another thing that made me feel bad about his death. 

 

Selyse is horrible from the get go. 

 

Interesting that Stannis is said to have always had issues with women.

 

I liked getting the mentions of the houses sworn to Dragonstone. I like how elaborate they all are in terms of dress in comparison to a simple man like Davos. 

 

I also liked reading about which lords agreed to meet with Davos. Lol that the Tarths agreed to a midnight meeting in a random grove someplace because they don't want to be seen with him. 

 

The descriptions of young Renly are like foreshadowing of that moment where Catelyn thinks about how Renly is playing at being a king. I totally laughed that Renly didn't just want to be a knight or a hero during these childhood games, but that he preferred the idea of playing a god or a dragon. He was always a trifle arrogant IMO. 

 

ETA:

 

Two other things I forgot to mention.

 

Pylos should have left a note for Maester Cressen explaining that he was asked to take his place that evening. He could have at least attempted to save Cressen from walking into that unexpected humiliation. 

 

The reader again gets confirmation that the plan was to have Robert Arryn sent to be fostered on Dragonstone. It's a small detail but it's so important as we'll later find out. I like that we're reminded about this right away.

Edited by Avaleigh
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Well, he was the guy who literally decided to run for king because he felt like it.

I myself was pretty amazed at how Stannis made Cressen wear the fool's hat. I know a lot of Stanstans like to point to his releasing Cressen from service as being for the maester's own benefit, but that order is almost bizarrely OOC, to the point where I wondered if I'd missed Patchface stealing Cressen's hat and he was telling him to give it back. I'd actually speculate that Early Installment Weirdness was at play here.

Poor Cressen seems unbearably pathetic and sad, and it's almost a mercy that he dies here. It's really tough to read about how heartbroken he is over the three brothers and what's going to happen to them, and how he ignores the limitations of his own body to strive to help Stannis. For some reason (despite being 29), the idea of a person being put out to pasture like that really hits me hard, and this is no exception.

Also, thanks for continuing this!

Edited by DigitalCount
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I love the prologue. We've gone a whole book hearing about Stannis and with this prologue we get to meet him and see Dragonstone in all it's messy, gothic glory. The way Stannis treats Cressen does seem out of character with later Stannis but it does get the point across that he is a hard man with little emotional attachment to people. The whole chapter is spooky and sets the mood for a book where bad things happen to many very nice people.

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  Quote

DigitalCount I myself was pretty amazed at how Stannis made Cressen wear the fool's hat

 

 

Yeah, even as a StanFan, I've gotta say: total dick move there. Sacking him is OK if a bit harsh (he is their ruler, it's pretty much up to him to decide who gets the jobs on Dragonstone) but you can allow the guy his dignity. But he pretty much had no choice but to drink: unless he realised that it wouldn't kill Melisandre, he'd just committed an assassination in front of the King - he was always going to die as a result (so a truly brave and selfless act - if ultimately pointless). Also, funny to see this was (presumably) "The Strangler" which (to avoid any spoilers)... turns up again later.

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One thing that's very different in this read than from the first time I read it is how I feel about the Shireen character. I always felt sorry for her but now it's like I feel terrible to know what's likely headed her way.

 

It's totally nuts that Patchface is trusted to be her babysitter. 

 

Speaking of Patchface I did enjoy reading this chapter because it gave me the chance to use the 'under the sea' = Valyria formula and I think it fits. I really like the idea that 'all the serving men are crabs' = House Celtigar. 

 

For the moment I have no recollection of what became of Pylos. I have no memory of him as a character. 

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I was actually wondering about Pylos too. I don't know how old most maesters are, but he seems like something of a prodigy? That's kind of interesting.

I also wonder about the "under the sea" thing. I've heard it translated as "after we die" which seems to also fit with the creepiness of the guy. I'm guessing GRRM isn't a fan of clowns.

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  On 9/22/2015 at 7:55 PM, Avaleigh said:

One thing that's very different in this read than from the first time I read it is how I feel about the Shireen character. I always felt sorry for her but now it's like I feel terrible to know what's likely headed her way.

 

Her nightmares about dragons eating her feel pretty disturbing, don't they?

 

On the subject of Renly's upcoming murder, it's notable that before Cressen freaks out, Stannis definitely does not oppose the idea in principle.

  Quote
Stannis turned back to his wife. “My brother is young and strong, and he has a vast host around him, and these rainbow knights of his.”

 

If you have no desire to kill someone, you don't need to go into why it would be difficult to kill him. And then he's alone with Selyse to listen to her "counsel", when the only counsel she can give him is about the LoL ensuring Renly drops dead. We don't know what went on between the two of them after Cressen left, maybe she was encouraging him to sleep with Mel and acting as a go-between. No one denies that Stannis would have executed Renly for treason if he had the chance, and Stannis doesn't even believe in the gods who supposedly care about kinslaying. I know the alternative interpretation is that Stan thought they were just talking about Renly dropping dead of unknown causes or being killed by someone else, but when Cressen cried fratricide, Selyse didn't deny it, which should have clued Stannis in if he didn't get it before. The other interesting thing is that before Selyse came in, Stannis actually seemed receptive to the idea of sending Shireen to the Eyrie, (which would have been a terrible idea with what we know of Lysafinger and Sweetrobin, but I guess Stannis didn't know how screwed up Lysa was), but by the time of the feast he's opposed to making common cause with anyone and seems in line with Selyse and Mel's view that R'hllor is the only ally he needs. Why would such a pragmatic man forget his gripes about not having enough soldiers and bet everything on a prediction from Mel that Renly would just happen to die?

 

The feast scene with Stannis being such a dick to Cressen has always puzzled me. Recently, while lurking on reddit or w.org, I saw it theorized that Mel told Stannis Cressen was going to try to kill her. We know she can foresee danger to herself in the flames, and that could explain why Stannis didn't want him there and why he just didn't care about Cressen's dignity when it started to become clear he wanted to have it out with Mel.

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Not that I think Lysa would have been receptive to the idea of a match with Shireen anyway but even if she had I feel certain that she would have treated Shireen poorly. She'd think that Shireen wasn't good enough for her Sweetrobin. 

 

Cressen notes that Stannis has never been loving to Selyse yet she still seems incredibly devoted to him anyway. It's an interesting contrast to Lysa or Cersei. 

 

I've always thought that Selyse was in denial or delude about the sexual side of the Stannis/Mel relationship but it's interesting to think that she might have encouraged it. 

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  On 9/23/2015 at 2:52 AM, Avaleigh said:

Not that I think Lysa would have been receptive to the idea of a match with Shireen anyway but even if she had I feel certain that she would have treated Shireen poorly. She'd think that Shireen wasn't good enough for her Sweetrobin. 

 

Cressen notes that Stannis has never been loving to Selyse yet she still seems incredibly devoted to him anyway. It's an interesting contrast to Lysa or Cersei. 

 

I've always thought that Selyse was in denial or delude about the sexual side of the Stannis/Mel relationship but it's interesting to think that she might have encouraged it. 

Selyse is so unpleasant, but I can't really dislike her too much because she's a pathetic figure, with her mustache that won't go away, her devotion to a hard man who has little regard for her, a man who left her alone on Dragonstone for all those years, probably only coming to visit for their annual copulation appointments, which were all failures as they never actually resulted in a son. Then she's the true and rightful Queen consort, married to a king and prophesied hero, and she's determined to make the most of it, and not settle for anything less than what King AAR and his wife are owed. The refusal to "beg" fealty from Lysa is just a step past Stan's own stubborn pride, there's a lot of sourness between the two of them, and she probably has similar resentment issues.

 

Idk if this is the show's influence, but the reason I think Selyse knew about Stannis/Mel is because I don't think she'd see it as anything wrong if done in the service of R'hllor. The big question there was how Mel seduced Stannis, since he's a self-righteous stick in the mud who doesn't care about base urges, and as Cersei later noted, it would probably be easier to seduce a horse. I imagine Mel framed the sex as an act of prayer to bring about the R'hllor-y miracle of Renly's death. But Selyse is the first person to bring up Renly's death, and since we don't know what they talked about in private, sex with Mel was my best guess. Maybe he needed justification to commit adultery without feeling like a hypocrite.

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The show makes it seem like Stannis is very attracted to Mel. In the books I don't remember getting any indication that Stannis was obvious about his sexual desire for Mel, I only remember getting confirmation from her POV. Maybe there was also some comment about them sharing a tent but I can't recall who's POV that is. 

 

When we find out that Stannis and Selyse only have sex a couple of times a year it's like no wonder they didn't have any kids. The show at least makes it seem like they tried harder. (Or maybe there's something coming in the books that indicates Selyse had difficulty holding a pregnancy and I just don't recall.)

Edited by Avaleigh
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I love that you're continuing this.  

 

I just love this prologue so much.  It does a wonderful job of finally giving us Stannis after an entire book of hearing other characters describe him in mostly unflattering terms, and he does not disappoint.  It also makes his court wonderfully creepy and dark and sad with all the gothic touches of dragon gargoyles, the horrible whiskered wife, and the stories of the tragedy of the Baratheon shipwreck and the siege where they were reduced to eating rats thrown in for good measure.  

 

I also really love meeting Davos, who makes my short list of favorite characters in the entire series because despite his wonderfully complex and unwavering support of Stannis and all his accompanying weirdness, he's usually one of the more reliable voices of common sense and reason.  The relationship between the two men fascinates me to no end.  The story of how a number of the Stormlords wouldn't meet with common-born Davos as a Stannis envoy at all and the Tarths would only meet with him in the garden at midnight tells you a lot about the class structure of Westeros society and also about Stannis's utter inability to read how that, and by extension he, would be received.  Add that to Stannis's wonderful rants about his raging middle-child syndrome and all the perceived slights that have been done to him, and it's really no great mystery why no one other than poor dead Ned really has any interest in seeing him crowned king.  

Edited by nodorothyparker
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Glad you started the re-read of A Clash of Kings, Avaleigh!

 

It's definitely a long chapter but one I liked a lot.  It provides a lot of information and the gothic setting is a great one.  Something I'm not sure if the show picked up.

 

I continue to think the show did Stannis a disservice by cutting this prologue.  It explained a lot of his motivations, which weren't that he was a religious fanatic.  But D&D and Cogman seemed to have one opinion of Stannis and clung to it, robbing one of the show's most complex characters of his complexity.  It'll always remain a major disppointment for me with the show.

 

Not that Stannis looks particularly great in this prologue.  His treatment of Cressen, a man who loves him like a son, is terrible and I can't believe he allowed Selyse to embarrass the old man like that.  It felt very out-of-character for Stannis (Show Stannis MIGHT have allowed it).  Stannis will punish you harshly and sometimes unfairly but he's not one for humuliation and only if you "break the rules."

 

Patchface is one of my favorite minor characters and his backstory is an interesting and tragic one.  Stannis has kept him alive as Patchface has done him no wrong and maybe that's him showing a sliver of compassion because his parents had died while bringing him home.  Still, that nut shouldn't be allowed anywhere near Shireen!

 

I forget sometimes that this chapter introduces Davos.  Of course Stannis's snobby bannermen don't respect him for the most part.

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Patchface is such a weird creature.  I know there's all these theories out there about his prophecies but I never really know what to make of him or the fact that Stannis and Co. keep him around basically as a child's pet.

 

Mel intrigued me out of the gate the first time I read this.  Up to this point both the faiths of the Seven and the Old Gods had seemed pretty toothless and now here we were being introduced to this strange red foreign woman who served yet an entirely separate deity who did seem to have some power about her.  The talk of the Lord of Light with its fanaticism was something entirely different from what we'd seen in the west, which also seemed unlikely to help Stannis's cause any.

Edited by nodorothyparker
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  Quote

nodorothyparker I also really love meeting Davos, who makes my short list of favorite characters in the entire series because despite his wonderfully complex and unwavering support of Stannis and all his accompanying weirdness, he's usually one of the more reliable voices of common sense and reason.

 

Davos is the sort of man every ruler needs: unfailingly loyal, but never afraid to speak his mind. And a self made man, too (And I love the Show's including the lines:

Stannis: They call you the Onion Knight behind your back

Davos: Not all of them. Some of them say it to my face!)

 

  Quote

nodorothyparker Up to this point both the faiths of the Seven and the Old Gods had seemed pretty toothless and now here we were being introduced to this strange red foreign woman who served yet an entirely separate deity who did seem to have some power about her.

 

One thing I do like about aSoIaF is the several religions - it's a shame that the only one that actually DOES anything is R'Lor - even their devil can raise the dead! OK, the Old Gods can apparently send you visions (and maybe allow you to change into an animal) but it'd be nice if the Seven actually had some effect.

Edited by John Potts
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  On 9/23/2015 at 3:21 PM, benteen said:

Patchface seems to me to be a servant of the Drowned God.  I'd love to see the Ironborn reaction to that!

I'm not even a fan of the character but I'd loveto know what Aeron would make of him.

I also want to know why it took Mel so long to say that Patchface is dangerous. Why wouldn't she tell Selyse to get rid of him?

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  On 9/23/2015 at 2:02 PM, nodorothyparker said:

 Add that to Stannis's wonderful rants about his raging middle-child syndrome and all the perceived slights that have been done to him, and it's really no great mystery why no one other than poor dead Ned really has any interest in seeing him crowned king.  

I like how Stannis declares Renly is still a child in the middle of his very childish ranting. Guess it takes one to know one. None of the Baratheon bros really managed to grow up (Stannis's growth, such as it is, happens in later books), so Renly acting irresponsible and immature at the ripe age of 21 is only to be expected, really.

 

The ranting also made me think of how awkward exposition can be when introducing new characters and settings. When someone is relating facts just out of the blue or to someone who already knows you feel like it's purely for the audience's benefit. But not in this case, because it's plain Stannis would unleash his old grudges at any opportunity, because he's that fixated on them.

 

Patchface is very intriguing and unsettling but it's easy to see why the character wouldn't work onscreen.

 

  On 9/23/2015 at 5:09 AM, Avaleigh said:

 

When we find out that Stannis and Selyse only have sex a couple of times a year it's like no wonder they didn't have any kids. The show at least makes it seem like they tried harder. (Or maybe there's something coming in the books that indicates Selyse had difficulty holding a pregnancy and I just don't recall.)

IKR? For a dutiful man, he wasn't really giving his all in the marital duty department.

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  On 9/23/2015 at 10:50 PM, Lady S. said:

The ranting also made me think of how awkward exposition can be when introducing new characters and settings. When someone is relating facts just out of the blue or to someone who already knows you feel like it's purely for the audience's benefit. But not in this case, because it's plain Stannis would unleash his old grudges at any opportunity, because he's that fixated on them.

 

 

This is a great point.  As a reader, you know that exposition at points is necessary and sometimes you have to just suspend disbelief that other characters haven't heard it all before or don't know certain things to get through a great information dump.  But Stannis's ranting feels organic and true to the character.  This is just who he is.  The castle armorer and the guy who delivers produce have probably heard some version of it.  Still, that doesn't mean you can't feel the other characters eyerolling and sighing "yes, we know," and that feels organic too.  

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Yeah, we got a great version of that when Stannis and Davos were on the boat. Actually, reading this prologue I think I'm glad we didn't really get it, mainly because of how sad it is. People think D&D hate Stannis now, but imagine how the audience would react to that part with Patchface and the hat. If it weren't for the weight of the show, that would change everything about how I view Stannis. I don't think that was the intended outcome.

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I can understand why they cut most of the prologue and didn't give us a big info-dump at the start, but the Stannis/Davos boat scene really came too late in s2. It shouldn't have been the ep right before Blackwater that we learn how those two got together, and the Storm's End lordship part would have been useful to have when Renly was still relevant to the story. We had 7 eps with little to go on about who Davos was to Stannis. And Stannis bringing up the past only to rant really feels more organic.

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I've been rewatching some of season 2 just because and while a lot of it does hold up much better than I remembered, you're right that it took way too long to establish what a curiously loyal relationship Stannis and Davos had or why.  We do get the poisoning of Cressen and some random bitching about Renly along with all the other claimants to the throne at the end of the letter writing scene in episode 1, but no real explanation of what Stannis's animosity was toward either brother or how he ended up with Dragonstone instead of the family seat of Storms End.   There are complaints as the episodes go along leading up to Renly's end that all the bannermen who declared for Renly should have rightly been his, but no elaboration on that either.

 

I read this book for the first time as season 2 was originally airing and I'm trying to remember if I even really understood what the difference was between Dragonstone and Storms End or why it would matter so much before reading it.  

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Arya I

 

Arya's new nickname is "Lumpyhead" and this makes Arya think about how she was called Arya Horseface back at Winterfell. Her head actually does feel pretty lumpy and that's because Yoren gave her a messed up looking haircut after her father's execution in King's Landing. She initially thinks that Yoren is trying to kill her when he breaks out the knife and begins using it to cut her hair, but she soon understands that she's going to need to pass as a boy for awhile if she's going to be able to safely travel with him.  

 

Yoren tells Arya that she's going to be traveling with some dangerous men and warns her that these Wall bound men aren't anything like her brother Jon. He says that if any of them were to figure out who she is that half of them would take her back to Queen Cersei in a heartbeat to get financial compensation. He says the other half would do the same only they'd rape Arya before taking her back to the capital. He advises her to keep to herself and to not drink anymore than she has to since she won't be able to piss on the side of the road like the other guys will. He also says that she'll go by the name of Arry.

 

Just as Yoren has anticipated, it's easy for him to get Arya past the Lannister guards at the gate. They barely even look at her because they think she's a boy. As she's leaving the city, she wishes that the Rush would just wash the entire city away and especially wants this to happen to Joffrey and Cersei. She then thinks about how Sansa would wash away as well since she's still in the city with them, so Arya decides to wish for being back at Winterfell instead.

 

The hardest part of Arya's journey so far has been dealing with the orphan boys Hot Pie and Lommy. Both boys agreed to come to the Wall with Yoren because they were promised food and shoes. Lommy Greenhands is the one responsible for giving Arya the nickname Lumpyhead.

 

Most of the men are fresh out of the black cells of the Red Keep and three of them seem so scary that Yoren keeps them fettered hand and foot in a wagon. He says these guys are such bad news that they're going to have to stay in irons for the entire journey. One of the men doesn't even have a nose and another has sharply filed teeth and just looks disgusting and menacing in general.

 

There are a little over thirty in the party and they take five wagons worth of supplies for the journey. There are a few donkeys available for the men to ride in addition to two horses. The men don't really pay attention to Arya for the most part. It's the boys who are closer in age but older and larger who are giving her shit. They take her silence to mean that she's scared or stupid and they wonder how a person like her could have an actual sword.

 

The boys question Arya on how she got the sword and speculate that she stole it. Arya denies that Needle was stolen and hates the idea of these kids sort of calling Jon a thief. She decides she doesn't want to go to Yoren for help to deal with Lommy and Hot Pie.

 

Lommy dares Hot Pie to take Arya's sword so Hot Pie rides over to Arya on his donkey and demands that she hand it over. He tells her that she doesn't know how to use a sword and this makes Arya think back to how she killed a boy who was fat like Hot Pie. She thinks that she'll kill Hot Pie too if he doesn't leave her alone. Arya is afraid of what Yoren would do if he learns about her killing that boy. She's sure that there are other killers within their party.

 

Lommy taunts Arya and asks her if she's going to cry and this makes her think about how she cried in her sleep as she dreamt of her father. The morning after she feels as though she wouldn't be able to cry again if her life depended on it.

 

A boy they refer to as the Bull tells Lommy and Hot Pie to leave Arry alone, but the two boys keep harassing her about handing the sword over. Arya offers Hot Pie her wooden practice sword instead but the boy isn't interested. She smacks Hot Pie's donkey with the wooden sword and startles the animal so that it takes off and sends Hot Pie tumbling to the ground. Arya gets down from her donkey and begins beating Hot Pie with the wooden sword. She breaks his nose and soon has him wailing in pain.

 

Arya asks Lommy if he wants some sword action too so Lommy raises his hands in surrender and tells her to get away from him. The Bull shouts out a warning out to Arya as Hot Pie goes to attack her from behind with a large rock. She lets Hot Pie throw the rock and simply ducks out of its way. After that, she goes over to Hot Pie and ends up beating him ruthlessly with the wooden sword until he shits himself and Yoren has to pull her off of him.

 

Yoren scolds everyone present and then tells Arry to come with him. Once they are out of earshot of the others he tells her that if he'd had any sense he would have left her in King's Landing. He orders her to pull down her breeches and ends up beating her with her own sword. He tells her to scream loudly so that the others will hear. She screams but also thinks to herself that she won't cry because she's a Stark of Winterfell. She can feel blood running down one of her legs and Yoren warns her that if she hits one of her "brothers" again that she'll end up suffering twice what she gives.

 

Arya thinks that these men are not her brothers but keeps the thought to herself. Yoren asks her if she's hurt and tells her that hitting these boys isn't going to help bring back her father.

 

Yoren informs Arya that the reason he was still in King's Landing was because he was told to wait because Ned would be traveling with him so that he could take the black. He says there's something queer about what ended up happening with the situation and Arya immediately suspects that Joffrey changed the plan; she says that somebody needs to kill him. Yoren says that somebody will kill Joffrey eventually only it won't be Arya or him.

 

Hot Pie is still too injured to walk or ride so he's been put into one of the wagons. Lommy is staying as far away from Arya as possible and the Bull tells Arya that Lommy twitches every time she looks at him. Arya doesn't respond to the Bull's comments and thinks that it's safer not to talk to anyone.

 

  Quote

That night she lay upon her thin blanket on the hard ground, staring up at the great red comet. The comet was splendid and scary all at once. "The Red Sword," the Bull named it; he claimed it looked like a sword, the blade still red-hot from the forge. When Arya squinted the right way she could see the sword too, only it wasn't a new sword, it was Ice, her father's greatsword, all ripply Valyrian steel, and the red was Lord Eddard's blood on the blade after Ser Ilyn the King's Justice had cut off his head. Yoren had made her look away when it happened, yet it seemed to her that the comet looked like Ice must have, after.

 

Once Arya is finally able to sleep she starts dreaming of Winterfell. She thinks of how it would be to see her mother, Robb, Bran, and Rickon again. She thinks that wants to see Jon Snow most of all. She wishes that they could somehow reach the Wall before they get to Winterfell. She dreams of Jon mussing her hair and calling her 'little sister' once again. She thinks about how they'll tell each other how much they've missed each other and imagines them saying this in unison as they so often used to say things in unison back at Winterfell. She thinks to herself that she'd like to have this happen better than anything else.

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I know the Wall is in need of men, but really what can the Night's Watch do with Rorge and Biter? They are in chains in a cage. If they're that dangerous how can you ever trust them on the Wall?

I do like that we get a sense of how bad things are in King's Landing with the boys voluntary leaving rather than starve. I also really enjoy the Arry/Gendry/Hot Pie/Lommy roadshow. I get a sense of all three boys right away and think the way they're presented is very real. Hot Pie and Lommy are bullies but I still end up caring about them.

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Yes bringing people on a cage makes very little sense. Perhaps we could interpret it that there was only a danger of escape while they were in a more habited area.

I wonder though what was even the plan ones they got father north. They didn't have any provisions or warm clothing.

I get struck sometime with all the could-have-beens of the wall if various people made it there. Some people who could have ended up at the wall were:

-Ned

-Lommy, Hotpie, Gendry etc

-Theon

And someone else I think. I can't recall.

In a way I think GRRM lost an opportunity by not having some other main character join the nightwatch. It's an interesting place for conflict since all old alliances are supposed to be forgotten.

There's still time though.

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Nice confirmation from Yoren that there was indeed a plan or at least a convincing appearance of a plan to send Ned to the Wall rather than the idiocy that ensued.

 

I've always wondered the same thing about the three in the wagon.  While I understand that to southerners the Wall is sort of the equivalent to what the Army used to be in this country as an alternative to jail, I guess they're dependent on it being so isolated and far removed from everything else to get such men to fall in line and not murder their cohorts the first chance they get.  With all the adult and near adult Starks gone south with the bulk of their forces and bannermen, it seems a poor time to be depending on them to capture any that might escape and pass the death sentence for it.

 

And since we know one of the three in the wagon turns out to be Jaqen H'ghar, it also makes me wonder how he ended up in the black cells in the first place.  

Edited by nodorothyparker
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Yeah, I hope we do get the story of how Jaqen ended up in that cell.

 

I agree that bringing criminals all the way from King's Landing to the Wall on a cell carridge isn't worth all the troube.

 

GRRM made a fun group of charaters to go to a Wall.  Though we see what happens to this group as the chapters go by

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  On 9/28/2015 at 2:15 AM, vibeology said:

I know the Wall is in need of men, but really what can the Night's Watch do with Rorge and Biter? They are in chains in a cage. If they're that dangerous how can you ever trust them on the Wall?

I do like that we get a sense of how bad things are in King's Landing with the boys voluntary leaving rather than starve. I also really enjoy the Arry/Gendry/Hot Pie/Lommy roadshow. I get a sense of all three boys right away and think the way they're presented is very real. Hot Pie and Lommy are bullies but I still end up caring about them.

Rorge and Biter have such alarming looking appearances I feel like they'd even freak out the Others. You're right though, it doesn't really make sense why he's bringing them. I'm curious as to what Jaqen said that made Yoren think he was on the level of Rorge and Biter. Maybe one of the gaolers gave Yoren the lowdown on Jaqen having done something horrible but again, these guys seem like they'd be a lot more trouble than they're worth to bring. If they have to keep them locked up then they're only extra mouths to feed. 

 

Hot Pie sounds like he's the main one who decided to come voluntarily. Lommy got busted for stealing but I was unclear if he was being sent to the Wall for that or if he's choosing to go to the Wall because he lost his spot being the dyer's apprentice. We know why Gendry is going. 

 

I liked the detail of Arya briefly wishing for KL to be washed into the sea only to change her mind because Sansa is still there. 

 

I too liked getting confirmation that Cersei really was trying to send Ned to the Wall. I also enjoyed Arya instantly knowing that Joffrey is the reason things didn't go according to plan. 

 

Characters I would or would have been interested in seeing interact on the Wall in some capacity?

Ned

Jorah

Jaime

Brynden

Theon

Arya 

Brienne

Jon Connington

 

Sansa is up next. 

Edited by Avaleigh
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Tyrion was the one I forgot of characters that could have gone to the wall. It would have been very interesting to have him and Jon meet up again after Tyrion's family had Ned killed and he married Jon's sister against her will.

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If Tyrion had gone to the Wall after the trial I would definitely have been interested in seeing him interact, not only with Jon, but with Sam (this could have been interesting; not only because of their love of reading but I'd be curious as to any comments that Tyrion would have made to Sam regarding Gilly), Janos (this had serious potential to be funny), Pyp (for the humor), Edd (again, humor), Tormund (okay, maybe all of these are for the humor, haha), and WunWun (this last one mainly because I wonder what Wun Wun would make of Tyrion.)

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I know it's suggested in one of the later chapters that Theon should go there after the capturing Winterfell fiasco.  Nothing more is made of it though and I can imagine that even if he had survived the trip through the North up, Jon and Theon would have been one of world's more awkward meetups considering what the younger boys' fates were believed to be at that point.

 

I kind of love that one of Stannis's many many grudges against Robert is that he didn't heed his advice to send Jaime to the Wall after killing Aerys.  It's fun to speculate that Jaime might have gotten his head out of his ass years sooner if Robert had.  At the very least, it would have prevented the succession crisis because he wouldn't have been there to father Cersei's children.

Edited by nodorothyparker
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I remember someone speculating on the old TWOP board how things might have worked out great for (mostly) everyone involved if Jaime had gone to the Wall.  Jaime and Benjen could have become friends and Jaime could have told him the truth about what happened.  Ned would have likely forgiven what Jaime did because a man is supposed to be absolved of his crimes when he goes to the Wall.  Tyrion might have been a semi-regular presence at Winterfell so he could visit his brothers and perhaps be on good terms with the Starks.  Serving on the Wall would have been good for Jaime and would have been a far better use of his skills that being a bodyguard to a drunken king.

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It makes me wonder how Tywin would have taken that though or what he might have done to try to prevent it.  We know he never took Jaime's lifelong vows to the Kingsguard seriously or stopped thinking that at some point Jaime would again be his heir.  It probably would have been much harder to maintain that illusion if Jaime was thousands of miles away doing life at the Wall instead of hanging around at the Red Keep.

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Tywin would have been the big x-Factor in all of this.  What would have been his move?  He threw in with Robert at this point so there was no turning back.  Being the richest man in Westeros is tremendous leverage though.

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  On 9/28/2015 at 2:58 PM, Avaleigh said:

If Tyrion had gone to the Wall after the trial I would definitely have been interested in seeing him interact, not only with Jon, but with Sam (this could have been interesting; not only because of their love of reading but I'd be curious as to any comments that Tyrion would have made to Sam regarding Gilly), Janos (this had serious potential to be funny), Pyp (for the humor), Edd (again, humor), Tormund (okay, maybe all of these are for the humor, haha), and WunWun (this last one mainly because I wonder what Wun Wun would make of Tyrion.)

And Stannis! :)

Jaime is another good example of could have gone to the wall. I kinda feel like he would have deserted though. Going to Casterly Rock and trying to get Cersei to come there so they could run away to the free cities. He'd probably be caught and executed before that though.

If he for some reason didn't desert it could have been rather interesting to have him and Jon interact. I like their interaction in the show were Jaime heckles him for joining a brother hood for life. I could imagine him doing the same at the wall.

He might die on a ranging accident though.

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  On 9/28/2015 at 2:58 PM, Avaleigh said:

If Tyrion had gone to the Wall after the trial I would definitely have been interested in seeing him interact, not only with Jon, but with Sam (this could have been interesting; not only because of their love of reading but I'd be curious as to any comments that Tyrion would have made to Sam regarding Gilly), Janos (this had serious potential to be funny), Pyp (for the humor), Edd (again, humor), Tormund (okay, maybe all of these are for the humor, haha), and WunWun (this last one mainly because I wonder what Wun Wun would make of Tyrion.)

 

If Tyrion had gone to the Wall, he would have been a great friend to Jon.  Tyrion really is the perfect "hand" to nearly any "ruler."

  On 9/28/2015 at 3:31 PM, benteen said:

I remember someone speculating on the old TWOP board how things might have worked out great for (mostly) everyone involved if Jaime had gone to the Wall.  Jaime and Benjen could have become friends and Jaime could have told him the truth about what happened.  Ned would have likely forgiven what Jaime did because a man is supposed to be absolved of his crimes when he goes to the Wall.  Tyrion might have been a semi-regular presence at Winterfell so he could visit his brothers and perhaps be on good terms with the Starks.  Serving on the Wall would have been good for Jaime and would have been a far better use of his skills that being a bodyguard to a drunken king.

Jamie would have easily become First Ranger.

  On 9/28/2015 at 3:57 PM, nodorothyparker said:

It makes me wonder how Tywin would have taken that though or what he might have done to try to prevent it.  We know he never took Jaime's lifelong vows to the Kingsguard seriously or stopped thinking that at some point Jaime would again be his heir.  It probably would have been much harder to maintain that illusion if Jaime was thousands of miles away doing life at the Wall instead of hanging around at the Red Keep.

Maybe he would have considered trying to have more children.  I mean if Jamie wasn't an option as an heir and he didn't want Tyrion to rule Casterly Rock, what choice would he have had but try for more sons?  I actually kind of wondered why he didn't once Jamie joined the KG.

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