The Official Re-Read Project: Book 2: A Clash Of Kings

[John Potts]

Lady S I wonder why Tywin only sat on the steps to the throne, and not the throne itself, when he took over for Joffrey.

 

 

Presumably for the same reason that Denethor never sat in the King's chair in Minas Tirith: officially, he's just a servant of its holder (even if in Lord of the Rings, its "holder" has been absent for centuries and he opposes the heir presumptive from taking it!). Victory on the Blackwater "proves" that Joffrey is the rightful King so this might well be a time for really laying on all the "Rightful King Joffrey" stuff.

 

Actually. does the Hand sit on the throne in the books when he's doing Hand stuff? I know the show has Ned (and others) do just that but it might be a show only thing - does the Book make it more "Nobody sits on The Iron Throne except the King!"?

Edited April 16, 2016 by John Potts

[Jazzy24]

Actually. does the Hand sit on the throne in the books when he's doing Hand stuff? I know the show has Ned (and others) do just that but it might be a show only thing - does the Book make it more "Nobody sits on The Iron Throne except the King!"?

In the books Ned and Tyrion both sat on that ugly ass chair when they were Hand.

Stannis once said that he and Robert saw Tywin sitting the throne while he acted as Aerys' Hand but I don't think he sat on it during his run as Joffery's Hand.

[benteen]

It's amazing that even as a child, Stannis would have sat on the Iron Throne.  He's such a stickler for the rules and free of imagination that it's a surprise he would do that.

[nodorothyparker]

I can only assume it's considered a huge deal to sit on the throne if you don't have a rightful claim to it since we know Ned bore an outsized grudge against Jaime for well more than a decade for parking himself on it after he killed the mad king.  He almost seems more upset about that than the actual killing.

[Jazzy24]

I can only assume it's considered a huge deal to sit on the throne if you don't have a rightful claim to it since we know Ned bore an outsized grudge against Jaime for well more than a decade for parking himself on it after he killed the mad king. He almost seems more upset about that than the actual killing.

I get Ned's grudge for that.

He and his allies just fought a war and than when they get to the capital the Lannisters who have sat the whole war out gets into the capital by deception rapes,murders and destroy KL. Than he goes into the throne room and Jaime who just murdered the King and did nothing while a women and her babies were violently raped and murdered is smirking on the throne of the man he was suppose to defend.

It makes the Lannisters look supicious and still makes me wonder how Robert and Jon Arryn allied with them when everything they found in the capital screamed at them not to.

[Avaleigh]

Theon VI

 

Maester Luwin is trying to convince Theon to yield but Theon is stubbornly refusing and asks Luwin to send more birds to his uncle and father. Luwin says it's too late to send more ravens and Theon asks the maester if he actually wants to see him dead. Luwin tells Theon that he neither loves nor hates him, and says it's his oath that makes him continue to counsel Theon. He says if Balon intended on sending Theon help that he would have done so by now and thinks that Balon is likely more concerned with Moat Cailin at present. Luwin again counsels Theon to yield but Theon starts talking about how he's ironborn and insists that he'll do things his way.

 

Theon has his garrison assembled down in the yard and asks the men if they'll stay with him to fight the northmen. At first it seems like Theon's going to be completely abandoned but he eventually guilt trips seventeen men into staying. All of the men who were brought over by Asha choose to leave.

 

At least a thousand northmen are soon surrounding the castle, so Theon agrees to parley with Ser Rodrik. Black Lorren disapproves of Theon's plan and Theon realizes that even the ironmen who have chosen to stay behind have turned against him. Theon feels as though even the castle's stones have turned on him and worries about dying alone and friendless. He thinks this gives him no choice but to try to live.

 

Theon greets Ser Rodrik by telling him he's sorry that they have to meet as enemies. Rodrik calls Theon a turncloak and talks about how he was Ned's ward for ten years. Theon argues that he was a hostage and prisoner and Rodrik replies that Theon should have been kept in a dungeon but was instead raised with Ned's very own sons. Rodrik admits that he wishes that he'd never put a sword in Theon's hand.

 

Rodrik wants Theon to surrender and says that any of his men who aren't child killers will be free to go; he says that Theon will then be held to await Robb's justice. Theon says that Robb will never return to Winterfell and predicts that his host will be broken on Moat Cailin. He claims that the ironborn hold the North now.

 

Rodrik is unimpressed and tells Theon that the ironborn only hold three castles and that number is about to go down to two. Theon tells Rodrik that he wants his men to disperse and if they don't he threatens to hang Rodrik's daughter Beth. Rodrik sees his daughter noosed and crying and is disgusted that Theon would use a child in such a way. Theon says that he started feeling the same terror that Beth feels the day he was taken from his father's house at the age of ten. Rodrik disagrees that the situations are the same.

 

Theon’s face was impassive. “The noose I wore was not made of hempen rope, that’s true enough, but I felt it all the same. And it chafed, Ser Rodrik. It chafed me raw.” He had never quite realized that until now, but as the words came spilling out he saw the truth of them.

 

Rodrik reminds Theon that he was never harmed during his time as a ward and Theon replies that the same will be true for Beth if Rodrik agrees to his terms. Rodrik cuts Theon off before he can finish and tells him that he was trying to give him the opportunity to save his men and die with some small drop of honor. He offers himself as a hostage in exchange for Beth, but Theon refuses and says that he's going to start killing people every day at dusk and dawn until Rodrik and his men are gone.

 

Back inside of the castle, Theon knows that the threat of killing Beth isn't going to keep Rodrik from attacking. He also knows that seventeen men are quickly going to be overwhelmed by the numbers from the other side. He thinks about how scared he was before the battle in the Whispering Wood and realizes how different it is to go into battle when you feel like you're surrounded by friends.

 

Maester Luwin approaches Theon, sees how lost he is, and encourages him to join the Night's Watch. He says that Ser Rodrik will allow Theon to take the black and says that this is Theon's last chance to save his life. Theon thinks about how Benjen and Jon Snow joined the Night's Watch and thinks that this is an opportunity to salvage an honorable life.

 

I have black garb aplenty, once I tear the krakens off Even my horse is black. I could rise high in the Watch-chief of rangers, likely even Lord Commander. Let Asha keep the bloody islands, they’re as dreary as she is. If I served at Eastwatch, I could command my own ship, and there’s fine hunting beyond the Wall. As for women, what wildling woman wouldn’t want a prince in her bed? A slow smile crept across his face, A black cloak can’t be turned. I’d be as good as any man...

 

One of Theon's men shouts to tell him that the northmen are engaged in battle with other northmen. Theon soon realizes that men from the Dreadfort are attacking Ser Rodrik's men, so he and Luwin go to watch the fighting from the battlements. The Bolton men have an advantage over Rodrik's men because they pretended that they were joining Rodrik's side only to turn on them.

 

It's dark by the time the fighting is over and the victors request for the castle gates to be opened. When asked if they're friends or foes, the knight leading the men asks if a foe would bring them the gifts of the corpses of Ser Rodrik, Leobald Tallhart, and Cley Cerwyn. Maester Luwin falls to his knees and is sick when he sees the dead bodies of the three men, but Theon thinks to himself that he's been saved. He also reflects for a moment on how empty he feels even though he thinks this is the sweet victory he was praying for. He looks over at Luwin and thinks about how close he was to taking the black.

 

Theon makes the call to open the gates to their new "friends" and thinks that tonight might be the first night that he'll be able to sleep without having to fear his dreams. He meets with the leader of the men in the yard and comments that Ser Rodrik had the numbers on his side at five to one. The leader of men from the Dreadfort says they had the element of surprise on their side. He mentions that he took off half of Ser Rodrik's arm when Rodrik moved to shake his hand. The man takes off his helm and Theon recognizes the man as Reek. He wonders how a servant is able to have such nice armor. 

 

Reek reveals himself to be Ramsay Snow but says that he goes by Ramsay Bolton. He explains how he switched places with his servant Reek and reminds Theon that he promised him a certain woman if he brought two hundred men back with him. Theon is unsettled but tells one of his men to send for Palla.

 

Ramsay says he doesn't want Palla anymore and says that he'd rather have Kyra. Theon doesn't like Ramsay's insolence and tries to tell him that it isn't going to happen, so Ramsay backhands him and shatters one of his cheekbones in the process. Once Theon is down on the ground and choking on his own blood, he tries to shout at his men to close the gates but it's too late.

 

Theon's men are quickly overwhelmed and even Maester Luwin is stabbed during the fighting. Ramsay gives orders to his men to save the two Walders and to burn everything else. The last thing Theon sees is his horse Smiler running from the burning stables, screaming as his mane burns.

Edited April 17, 2016 by Avaleigh

[Jazzy24]

Winterfell

[Avaleigh]

I forgot that Luwin still (thankfully) has one more scene left. He's a good man until the end and he gets stabbed for his trouble. It's not exactly like maesters are a dime a dozen. Ramsay doesn't see how Luwin could be of any use to him. Roose has a similar problem. I was kind of shocked that Lucan the armorer was killed when armorers are so valued. Being an apprentice armorer is why Gendry is still alive. The Boltons are the worst. 

 

I bet Theon never thought life at the Wall would seem so appealing. He doesn't even seem worried about having to face Jon or Benjen. It's funny too that he already sees himself as excelling in the Night's Watch without appreciating that it might take a bit more time and work than he's probably picturing. He just struggles with the idea of not being special or something. 

 

It's funny how Theon always thinks of the master bedroom as Ned's bedchamber. I also liked the moment where he feels like the castle itself is turning on him. 

 

I don't really get why any of the ironborn stayed. I'm surprised that Asha's men hung around for as long as they did. 

 

How sad for the people of Winterfell that they're *this* close to thinking that things will relatively get back to normal only to have everything go from bad to a thousand times worse. We know what's in store for Kyra. I can't recall if Ramsay names one of his dogs after Palla or not. 

 

I like that even the ironborn are disgusted with Theon for using Beth even if their reasons for being disgusted aren't the reasons normal people would be. 

 

I hate that Rodrik was killed while offering his hand to Ramsay. He didn't even have the chance to fight. 

 

Only three chapters left. 

[Lady S.]

I can only assume it's considered a huge deal to sit on the throne if you don't have a rightful claim to it since we know Ned bore an outsized grudge against Jaime for well more than a decade for parking himself on it after he killed the mad king.  He almost seems more upset about that than the actual killing.

The Hand is the only other person who does have a right to sit on it. Ned himself did so and we know Tywin did as the Mad King's Hand, just as Tyrion did in an earlier chapter of this book.

 

Robb never returning to Winterfell was the one thing Theon was right about. '(.

 

Poor Smiler the horse.

I bet Theon never thought life at the Wall would seem so appealing. He doesn't even seem worried about having to face Jon or Benjen. It's funny too that he already sees himself as excelling in the Night's Watch without appreciating that it might take a bit more time and work than he's probably picturing. He just struggles with the idea of not being special or something. 

I like that his first thought was about his wardrobe already fitting the NW color scheme.

Edited April 17, 2016 by Lady S.

[Avaleigh]

Tyrion XV

 

Tyrion is in constant pain and drifts in and out of consciousness. He's too weak to get out of bed and thinks about all of the men who died at his command. He worries about his father seeing him cry, he thinks about how he never knew his mother, and he thinks about how much he wants Shae. He recalls the incident with Mandon Moore, feels the fear rush over him, and wishes that Jaime, Shae, or even his mother or Tysha were there to help him.

 

Tyrion has multiple visitors including his father and sister, but he seems to be under the impression that he's still dreaming whenever anyone is at his bed side. He reasons that they must have won the battle if he's still alive and feels a sense of relief that his wits are returning.

 

When Pod sees that Tyrion is awake, he goes to fetch a maester and the maester immediately gives Tyrion milk of the poppy so that he'll fall back asleep. He dreams that he's at a celebratory feast where Jaime knights him and Marillion sings about all of the great deeds he's accomplished. He dreams that Tywin is smiling in approval and that Shae is there to embrace him and call him her 'giant of Lannister'.

 

The next time Tyrion wakes up he's alone in a cold and dark room and he realizes that he isn't in the Tower of the Hand. He thinks again about how Mandon Moore tried to kill him and knows that he would be dead had Pod not intervened.

 

Tyrion thinks back to how happy he was during that brief period with Tysha. He remembers how they would stay in bed all day, how he would make her laugh, and how she would sing to him.

 

When Maester Ballabar tries to give Tyrion milk of the poppy again, he grabs the guy by his chain so that he can't breathe and says that he doesn't want anymore. Tyrion suspects that Ballabar is working for Cersei.

 

Tyrion demands that the maester remove the bandages from his face and then asks for a mirror so that he can inspect the damage. He sees that he's missing most of his nose in addition to having stitches that run all the way from his left eye to his right jaw. He doesn't know if wants to laugh or cry upon seeing his reflection.

 

Tyrion guesses that Cersei gave the order for Mandon to make sure that he didn't return from the battle. He looks at his face and thinks about the gift that his sister has given him.

 

Ballabar informs Tyrion that Tywin has taken up residence in the Tower of the Hand and tells him all about how Tywin, Lord Tyrell, Loras Tyrell, and Littlefinger are all responsible for saving the city.

 

Tyrio struggles to think of who he can trust in this moment and asks Ballabar to have Pod sent to him. When Pod arrives, Tyrion asks him for some dreamwine and then tells him to send for Maester Frenken. He also says that he wants his own guard and tells Pod to find Bronn. Pod lets Tyrion know that Bronn has recently been made a knight.

 

Tyrion wonders where Mandon is and Pod starts stuttering that he didn't mean to kill him; Pod confirms that Mandon drowned. Tyrion is happy to hear this and tells Pod not to say anything to anyone about the incident ever again.

 

Once Tyrion is alone, he wonders if he'll dream about Tysha and thinks about what she'd make of his new face.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Avaleigh

[nodorothyparker]

Ramsay is just resoundingly awful in Theon's chapter.  In short order he kills Ser Rodrik and butchers a lot of his fellow Northerners, confirms what bit of awful he and Reek were really up to when they were captured, gets a quick gloat in about Lady Hornwood being forced to eat her fingers before she died, and then sets his sights on Kyra before turning on Theon.  And Theon is just so damn slow to catch on.  He's even thinking that at least he'll sleep tonight without fear in the final moments when he believes he's saved before all this goes down.

 

I was kind of surprised to realize that Luwin's response to Theon demanding that he send more birds that "you killed all the birds" was a show only thing.  Poor Luwin is trying right to the end to salvage something of this mess that isn't going to get any more people killed.  Theon's mind going first to his clothing options if he were to take Luwin's suggestion to join the Night's Watch is funny, as is his immediately jumping himself in line to being lord commander and having his own ship and his own woman without considering the effort it would take in harsh conditions to even make that happen.  Luwin apparently doesn't know in suggesting it that Robb has already ordered that Theon be taken alive and brought to him so it's never even really an option.

 

I get that Theon was wanting his overwhelmed forces to choose him to show that somebody anybody was on his side, but it didn't work out that way at all and I was a little surprised they didn't all desert en masse.  It's not like he the numbers at that point to force anyone to do anything.

Edited April 18, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[Avaleigh]

This chapter made me think about which characters are in a better place or frame of mind than they were towards the start of the book and it seems like Dany, Sansa, Jaime, and Arya the characters who are in a (relatively) better place than when the book starts. The other characters have some pretty big hits and come downs. Tyrion loses his nose, he's in pain, he's lost his position, and people are ignoring the efforts he made to help win the battle. Stannis is feeling like a loser; Davos is MIA and he's lost more than one son; Robb's lost Winterfell and he thinks his brothers are gone; Catelyn is down to having one child that she knows of who is safe (for now); Theon's entire world is destroyed; Bran and Rickon are separated and forced out of their home.

 

I can't decide if Jon's in a better position or not by the end.  

 

Ramsay is just resoundingly awful in Theon's chapter.  In short order he kills Ser Rodrik and butchers a lot of his fellow Northerners, confirms what bit of awful he and Reek were really up to when they were captured, gets a quick gloat in about Lady Hornwood being forced to eat her fingers before she died, and then sets his sights on Kyra before turning on Theon.

What surprised me was realizing that Reek didn't know that Ramsay was setting him up to die. I stupidly thought Reek made a willing sacrifice because they had some fucked up sort of bond. 

Edited April 18, 2016 by Avaleigh

[nodorothyparker]

I don't know that I've ever given any thought at all to what arrangement Ramsay and original recipe Reek might have had or if Reek had any inkling at all that he was being set up to take an arrow in the back.  The further I stay out of the head of someone who happily goes along with riding down terrified women and rapes their corpses the happier I am. 

[vibeology]

I was kind of surprised to realize that Luwin's response to Theon demanding that he send more birds that "you killed all the birds" was a show only thing.  Poor Luwin is trying right to the end to salvage something of this mess that isn't going to get any more people killed.  Theon's mind going first to his clothing options if he were to take Luwin's suggestion to join the Night's Watch is funny, as is his immediately jumping himself in line to being lord commander and having his own ship and his own woman without considering the effort it would take in harsh conditions to even make that happen.  Luwin apparently doesn't know in suggesting it that Robb has already ordered that Theon be taken alive and brought to him so it's never even really an option.

 

I know Robb orders that but I don't believe that if Theon actually offered to take the black, Robb would deny him. Robb is a Stark after all and they feel a strong connection to the Night's Watch. If Theon surrendered and pledged to join, I can't see how Robb would say no. In fact, he'd probably be relieved that he doesn't have to kill Theon considering how Robb thought of Theon before Theon betrayed the Stark cause.

[nodorothyparker]

As far as Robb knows, Theon either murdered his two little brothers and then set their corpses on fire or burned them alive in the course of taking Robb's ancestral castle and killing many of his castle retainers.  All happening in the course of betraying Robb when he had been sent on a diplomatic mission for him after calling him brother, which we know in turn makes his own bannermen believe his cause is lost.  Maybe the famous Stark honor would win out in the end because it does have a habit of rearing it's head at the most inconvenient times, but I doubt anyone would blame him at this point if it doesn't.  Either way, it's highly unlikely Robb is going to just let him saunter off to the Wall before a very uncomfortable confrontation as to the why of what he did.  Robb does specifically mention wanting that.

[Avaleigh]

If Theon had been brought to Robb I wonder if Theon would have confessed that he didn't kill Bran and Rickon? Would Robb believe him? I tend to agree that Robb would ultimately allow Theon to be sent to the Wall. I think he'd ask himself what Ned would do and my guess is that Ned would permit Theon to take the black. 

[Lady S.]

As far as Robb knows, Theon either murdered his two little brothers and then set their corpses on fire or burned them alive in the course of taking Robb's ancestral castle and killing many of his castle retainers.

The burning was a show thing, BookTheon took their heads off and had them tarred to be unrecognizable while displaying the bodies with Bran's and Rickon's clothes. We also don't know whether BookRobb wanted Theon alive. Rodrik was still acting on his own here.

[nodorothyparker]

Crap, you're right. I did know that but I've been watching random episodes in the lead up to the series premier and happened to see that one the other night. It was a show only thing that Robb heard the news while still in camp and had to be talked out of marching back north to deal with Theon personally. Book Robb's reaction is all off page.

I don't know if it's going to be easier or harder remembering which is which as we get into the later seasons where the story deviations get wider.

[Lady S.]

I'm sure it will be easy to tell the difference once you get to re-watching s5.

Anyway, on to Tyrion XV. Tyrion keeps getting to me here, these last two chapters are when I feel the most for him. First thinking of the mother he never knew, and then that dream of Jaime knighting him and Tywin smiling in approval. His memories of his brief time with Tysha give the first evidence that she really did like him and did want to be with him. They both act like smitten adolescents, which is a sharp contrast to his scenes with Shae, who is great at the loving sex kitten act but is very transparent about her true priorities. So either Tysha was genuinely not after Lannister or she was very cunning and a much better actress than Shae, which seems unlikely since she was a 14yo virgin.

[Constantinople]

They both act like smitten adolescents...

Sometimes Tyrion reminds me of a guy mooning over his high school girlfriend wondering what could have been. Either that or There's Something About Mary, which was largely the same thing.

 

His memories of his brief time with Tysha give the first evidence that she really did like him and did want to be with him...which is a sharp contrast to his scenes with Shae, who is great at the loving sex kitten act but is very transparent about her true priorities. So either Tysha was genuinely not after Lannister or she was very cunning and a much better actress than Shae, which seems unlikely since she was a 14yo virgin.

Keeping in mind that

 

• People grow-up a lot faster in the Middle Ages and the Seven Kingdoms than in 21st century America (or Britain)

   

• Tysha wasn't hanging out with present day Tyrion that Shae is, but a much younger and more naive Tyrion. Tysha's "game" didn't necessarily have to be particularly good to fool him

   

• Some people have a tendency to romanticize the past. Obviously Tyrion doesn't do that with his father or sister, but it's possible he's looking back at Tysha with rose colored glasses.

  I don't recall if Tyrion ever stopped to wonder if they would be intellectually compatible. Perhaps Tyrion wouldn't care about that, but I think after a few months or year or so, Tysha would have bored him.  He's not getting much intellectual stimulation from Shae, but he had the whole Game of Thrones / Siege of King's Landing to keep himself busy, plus the whole excitement from the danger of being caught.  If something resembling normalcy had returned and Tyion went back to being Casterly Rock's plumber, I think he would have eventually become bored with Shae even if his father permitted Tyrion to keep her around.

[nodorothyparker]

I've always found it interesting that, appropriateness issues aside, both Lannister brothers are basically stuck mooning over the first girls to have sex with them.  They are both those guys who are convinced that their first high school girlfriend was THE ONE, the greatest thing ever, and aren't much interested in being convinced otherwise no matter what it may cost them.  We've seen enough of Cersei by the time we get inside Jaime's head to know that he romanticizes her ridiculously beyond anything she actually is, but we don't have that same luxury with Tyrion and Tysha.

 

Sure, it's possible that they may have really loved each other.  But the sum of their relationship was all of two weeks and it seems just as likely that once the novelty wore off that the Tyrion who's used to life on a Casterly Rock scale would have tired of building his own fire and living a simple cottage life.  We've seen how disparately wide the experience is between being highborn or smallfolk through the series.  Even if Tywin hadn't been the bastard to end all bastards and master of the overreaction, they may eventually have just run out of things to say to each other.

Edited April 20, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[SeanC]

Sure, it's possible that they may have really loved each other.  But the sum of their relationship was all of two weeks and it seems just as likely that once the novelty wore off that the Tyrion who's used to life on a Casterly Rock scale would have tired of building his own fire and living a simple cottage life.  We've seen how disparately wide the experience is between being highborn or smallfolk through the series.  Even if Tywin hadn't been the bastard to end all bastards and master of the overreaction, they may eventually have just run out of things to say to each other.

Possible.  But Tyrion is also desperate to be loved; if she did love him, or was capable of a convincing facsimile, that would have gone a long way.

[nodorothyparker]

Very true.  Look at what he was able to construct mostly out of thin air with Shae, who really wasn't all that convincing unless you were just looking for her to be.

[Lady S.]

 

Sometimes Tyrion reminds me of a guy mooning over his high school girlfriend wondering what could have been. Either that or There's Something About Mary, which was largely the same thing.

 

Keeping in mind that

 

• People grow-up a lot faster in the Middle Ages and the Seven Kingdoms than in 21st century America (or Britain)

   

• Tysha wasn't hanging out with present day Tyrion that Shae is, but a much younger and more naive Tyrion. Tysha's "game" didn't necessarily have to be particularly good to fool him

   

Of course he's looking at it with rose-colored glasses and the romance probably would have had an expiration date at some point, but why should we assume there was any game at all on her part? What I'm saying is that her game would have to be much better than Shae's because it appears to be non-existent. Unless Tyrion invented these memories out of whole cloth, I have to think that Tysha sounds pretty genuine. What gain was there for her in continuing to live as a peasant with a lordling too scared to publically acknowledge their marriage? Tyrion believed Jaime's lie because he always feared Tywin was right about him being fundamentally unlovable, and I think the whole point is that Tywin is dead wrong about Tyrion. That's different than Jaime's own unhealthy fixation, because Jaime could have had any woman he wanted and he had no insecurities in that area. (Tyrion is so desperate for love that he has no other requirements in a partner, while Jaime believed Cersei, as his twin and other half, was just better than any other woman.) I'm just not willing to see ulterior motives without evidence because that's Tywin's way of thinking about Tyrion and about lowborn women. I'm not saying Tyrion/Tysha was true love, just that it wasn't all fake like Tyrion/Shae either.

 

Sidenote, I still always read it in my head as Tie-sha, but I guess if she thought their names went together it must have been pronounced Tisha or maybe Tee-sha.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Lady S.

[Hecate7]

 

• Some people have a tendency to romanticize the past. Obviously Tyrion doesn't do that with his father or sister, but it's possible he's looking back at Tysha with rose colored glasses.

  I don't recall if Tyrion ever stopped to wonder if they would be intellectually compatible. Perhaps Tyrion wouldn't care about that, but I think after a few months or year or so, Tysha would have bored him.  He's not getting much intellectual stimulation from Shae, but he had the whole Game of Thrones / Siege of King's Landing to keep himself busy, plus the whole excitement from the danger of being caught.  If something resembling normalcy had returned and Tyion went back to being Casterly Rock's plumber, I think he would have eventually become bored with Shae even if his father permitted Tyrion to keep her around.

 

 

 

Perversely, I don't think Tyrion has ever looked for intellectual stimulation from women. It could happen, of course, but I don't think Tyrion has ever expected it.

 

It bothers me that Tysha's name was Tysha. As in Tyrion, Tyrek, Tywin, Tybolt, Tygett...Tysha's name is peculiarly Lannister. She's a crofter's daughter, but could her mother have been Tytos' unnamed mistress? Or worse, might she be Tywin's unacknowledged bastard daughter? It's just an annoying little thought.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Hecate7

[nodorothyparker]

I don't think Tyrion is looking for an intellectual equal in a woman either.  He mostly seems to want someone pretty who wants him, and if she happens to come with a claim to say something like Winterfell that's great but he'd just as soon have the affection.

 

Tysha does sound perfectly fine from what very limited view we get of her, but we also don't have much to go on.  I believe she's only described as a crofter's daughter, so she probably wasn't expecting much from any eventual husband beyond hoping he'd provide for her and be kind to her.  If we pretend for a moment that Tywin wasn't the completely unreasonable bastard that he was, could she have hoped that maybe Tyrion might have some kind of allowance or maybe someday inherit something?  No, she's never going to be lady of Casterly Rock but that was never in the cards for her anyway.  I'll admit I've never really given enough thought to the specific feudal system laid out in this series to have much opinion on Tyrion's financial prospects as a younger son beyond noticing that he seems to have spent freely enough even with Tywin's grumbling about it.  I can assume from the historical parallels that Martin's drawing on that he was expected to eventually marry a highborn daughter with some sort of claim or fortune of her own, and we are told that Tywin made a few unsuccessful attempts in that direction before the Sansa situation presented itself.

 

Thinking about all this reminds me on a semirelated note that Tywin never laid out any sort of realistic contingency plan for inheritance should he never get Jaime off the Kingsguard.  He's resolute that Tyrion won't inherit the family seat or titles but he never follows the thought to the next logical point beyond that that nobody is being groomed to be the heir to lead the house and the Westerlands.

[vibeology]

I think on some level, Tywin thought he'd live forever. I know that's totally unreasonable, but I do think he just refused to think about that future and hoped it would never come. He has no plan in place for what comes next and he's riding into battles all the time in these books. Plus he's just not a young man anymore so he should have a real plan in place at all times, but he never does, so I think its safe to say he's avoiding thinking about it.

 

In practical terms, I assume Tywin was always planning on having Joffrey release Jaime from the Kingsguard and if somehow that couldn't be arranged (like Jaime dying or the Faith putting their foot down and not letting him go), Tommen would be the eventual heir to Casterly Rock. Once Joffrey dies, there is still Myrcella who could inherit or if he had lived long enough either Cersei or Myrcella might have gotten married and had a son, or Tommen might have a second son. There isn't really anywhere to put a second son of the King since the Baratheon brothers got Dragonstone and Storm's End, so leaving CR for any of those kids could work out but I agree that it does show that for all his plans and strategies, Tywin was very short-sighted when it came to his own family.

[Avaleigh]

Jon VIII

 

Jon and Qhorin are the only men left of the five who fled the Skirling Pass and Jon realizes that the end is near when Qhorin gives him the okay to start a fire. He wonders if Ghost will howl for him after he dies the way that Summer howled after Bran's fall. He thinks about the remaining direwolves and wonders if they'll howl too.

 

Qhorin commands Ebben to ride ahead to Mormont and when Ebben protests that it's Jon who should go, Qhorin says that Jon has a different role to play. After Stonesnake's mount is killed, Qhorin tells him to make for the Fist so that he can warn Mormont about what Jon saw.

 

"...Tell him that the old powers are waking, that he faces giants and wargs and worse. Tell him that the trees have eyes again.”

 

Jon thinks that Stonesnake has no chance of making it.

 

Qhorin asks Jon if his sword is sharp and asks him if he remembers the words of his vow. They recite the words together and when they're done, Jon prays to the old gods that he'll die bravely when his time comes.

 

Their fire is close to burning out and Qhorin says that if the Wall falls then it will be like putting all fires out. Jon tells Qhorin that he isn't afraid to die and Qhorin replies that it might not be as simple as that. He explains to Jon that he wants him to yield to the wildlings when the time comes. He commands Jon to join up with Mance Raydar and tells him to do whatever the wildlings may ask of him. He tells Jon not to return to Mormont until he figures out what the wildlings are up to.

 

Jon agrees to do as Qhorin commands but asks him to tell Mormont that he isn't being an oathbreaker. Qhorin promises to tell Mormont the next time he sees him.

 

The wildlings eventually catch up to Jon and Qhorin, and they're soon taunting the two men by showing them Ebben's severed head. Rattleshirt is leading the group but he seems reluctant to attack Qhorin even after Qhorin tells him to bring it. The wildlings taunt them some more and Qhorin tells Jon to remember what he's been commanded to do.

 

Jon tells the wildlings that they yield and Qhorin immediately distances himself from Jon and calls him a bastard craven. Rattleshirt says that the wildlings don't really have use for cravens either, and this is when Ygritte steps up and tells him that Jon is no craven and is in fact the 'Bastard o' Winterfell'. She says that Jon spared her and asks that he be allowed to live.

 

Rattleshirt doesn't trust Jon and still wants him to die. He commands one of his men to gut Jon but one of the spearwives speaks up and says that Jon should be permitted to prove himself if he really wants to join them. Jon says that he'll do whatever they ask, so Rattleshirt orders him to kill Qhorin.

 

Qhorin tells Jon to get ready to die and begins attacking him. Jon starts fighting and remembers Qhorin telling him not to balk at whatever the wildlings ask of him. Jon fights until his arms start to get numb, but he eventually kills Qhorin and realizes that Qhorin knew all along what the wildlings would likely ask of him. Jon thinks about all of his friends in the Night's Watch and wonders if he's lost them all in the way that he's lost Bran, Rickon, and Robb. He wonders who he is now.

 

Rattleshirt again orders for Jon to be gutted but Ygritte defends Jon, and others shout their agreement with her that they shouldn't be frightened of the fact that Jon is a warg.

 

When Jon starts asking about which way they'll head, Ygritte mentions that Mance is already marching on the Wall.

[Jazzy24]

Rereading about how the Others are coming and the Long Night makes me question how the world will survive the War for the Dawn.

I mean humans 8,000 years ago fought the Others and won and it seems sensible that they can do it again. But I just see the war of the 5 Kings, Stannis and Renly are fighting each other, Thorne getting laughed at in KL about the dead walking, the Lannisters quest for power, Robb's war, Lysa's pettiness and greed, Dany conquering other nations and other little squabbles and I have no hope for them.

I sometimes think it would be realistic if the Others won especially since no one not even the NW is united against the Others.

[Avaleigh]

The Night's Watch loses so many good men in this book. I really liked the moment where Ebben wants Jon to go because he thinks it would be giving Jon a chance to live. 

 

I like that Rattleshirt seems to think that he has the command but nobody really feels like they have to listen to him. 
 

The wildlings seem fairly divided on wargs and skinchangers. There's a feeling of suspicion but it also seems like some people think it's kind of cool not to mention useful. 

 

I like that Ygritte is sort of returning the favor of Jon saving her. 

 

There's only one more chapter left!

[Constantinople]

Of course he's looking at it with rose-colored glasses and the romance probably would have had an expiration date at some point, but why should we assume there was any game at all on her part? What I'm saying is that her game would have to be much better than Shae's because it appears to be non-existent.

 

I'm neutral about whether or not Tysha was on the up-and-up or whether she was stringing Tyrion along.  Ultimately, I don't much care.

 

I'm just disputing the assertion that a 14 year old virgin would be incapable of stringing a 13 year old Tyrion along.  If Tysha had been stringing Tyrion along, her game wouldn't need to be better than Shae's, it would need to be better than 13 year old Tyrion, which was in the negative territory.  Plus, Tysha was introduced to Tyrion as an some random young girl who was a crofter's daughter and an orphan, i.e., "innocent".  Tyrion always knew Shae was a whore.

[Lady S.]

I'm neutral about whether or not Tysha was on the up-and-up or whether she was stringing Tyrion along.  Ultimately, I don't much care.

 

I'm just disputing the assertion that a 14 year old virgin would be incapable of stringing a 13 year old Tyrion along.  If Tysha had been stringing Tyrion along, her game wouldn't need to be better than Shae's, it would need to be better than 13 year old Tyrion, which was in the negative territory.  Plus, Tysha was introduced to Tyrion as an some random young girl who was a crofter's daughter and an orphan, i.e., "innocent".  Tyrion always knew Shae was a whore.

And I'm not saying a 13yo Tyrion couldn't have been stringed along, just that the memories and the dialogue provided here show no evidence of such. Why would I think 13yo Tyrion would be hard to fool? 25yo Tyrion was very easy to fool, despite knowing Shae was performing a hired service, and Shae's true interests were very transparent to anyone reading carefully. Rather than just give us Tyrion's impressions and initial opinions about Tysha, this chapter has a flashback, which if accurate, stands in stark contrast to Shae's luxury-craving and employer-loving sex kitten act. The appearance of genuine feeling from Tysha and the lack of obvious ulterior motives like Shae's is why I said she must be a better actress than Shae, if she was lying. That was based on my opinion of Tysha's words and my opinion of Shae's, not Tyrion's feelings for either one of them.  Again, assuming Tysha's words and actions are even close to accurate, I assume this flashback was inserted for a reason because these are not real people and all we can judge them by is their words and actions on the page.

 

The Night's Watch loses so many good men in this book. I really liked the moment where Ebben wants Jon to go because he thinks it would be giving Jon a chance to live. 

The first time I read that I thought he was just objecting because he wanted to get rid of Jon and didn't think Jon could be any use to Qhorin.

 

Re-reading this just gets me annoyed that the show had Qhorin captured alive, without even much of a fight since he was relatively uninjured when we saw him again, when here the wildlings are afraid of taking him one on one and Jon needs Ghost's help to kill him.

 

I like the set-up for Qhorin's death and final word with Longclaw's Valyrian steel giving him a quick, clean death. If there is an afterlife in ASoIaF-world, Qhorin can keep his promise to Jon since Mormont will be joining him there sooner than expected.

[Avaleigh]

Bran VII

 

Jojen wakes Bran up from a wolf dream and tells him that he's been sleeping for three days. He tells Bran that they were afraid for him and says that Bran has been spending too much time in Summer's skin. Bran thinks about how he prefers his wolf dreams to real life and about how he was able to talk to Jon, and even touch Ghost, but isn't sure if those were dreams or not. He doesn't understand why Jojen is constantly trying to pull him back from his dreams.

 

Bran tells Osha that he saw Winterfell burning in his wolf dream and says that everyone has been killed, but Osha is initially reluctant to check because of what Theon might do to her. Meera gives Bran's fingers a squeeze and says that she'll go, and Osha eventually reasons that she'll go too since they're almost out of food. Osha lights a torch and Bran has a moment where he looks around in the crypt.

 

When the shadows moved, it looked for an instant as if the dead were rising as well. Lyanna and Brandon, Lord Rickard Stark their father, Lord Edwyle his father, Lord Willam and his brother Artos the Implacable, Lord Donnor and Lord Beron and Lord Rodwell, one-eyed Lord jonnel, Lord Barth and Lord Brandon and Lord Cregan who had fought the Dragonknight. On their stone chairs they sat with stone wolves at their feet. This was where they came when the warmth had seeped out of their bodies; this was the dark hall of the dead, where the living feared to tread.

 

Osha wants the others to come with her, so they all agree to leave. Bran gives his father's likeness a final look and thinks that he sees a sadness in Ned's eyes. They take three spears with them; Osha takes's Ned's, Meera takes Lord Rickard's, and Bran takes Brandon's. As Bran is leaving he wonders where he'll go when he dies and seems to question whether or not he'll return to the crypts one day.

 

They see that the castle is just as dead and burned as Bran dreamed and Osha and Jojen agree that they all need to leave. Summer and Shaggydog join Bran and Rickon and the group soon starts looking for food so that they can head out. Osha realizes that Theon's men aren't responsible for torching the castle and shows the group evidence that men from the Dreadfort are the ones to blame.

 

Summer howls and heads for the godswood, so the others follow him. They see Maester Luwin there dying under the heart tree. Luwin tells them that he knew the bodies of the boys weren't of Bran and Rickon and asks how they managed to hide, and Bran explains about how they hid in the crypts. Osha offers to make a litter to carry Luwin but he tells her there's no point. Rickon tells Luwin that he can't die and Shaggydog starts growling.

 

Luwin instructs Osha that Robb's heirs not stay together and Osha understands that Luwin means that Bran and Rickon are safer apart than together. Osha suggests taking the boys to the Cerwyins but Luwin advises her not to and admits he doesn't know where is best to take each boy since war seems to be everywhere. He gives White Harbor and the Umbers as tentative suggestions.

 

Luwin tells Bran that he has to be strong and Bran promises that he will be. He thinks about how overwhelming it is to lose both Ser Rodrik and Luwin.

 

Luwin asks Osha to give him water and requests 'another boon' of her. Osha asks Meera to take the boys away and rejoins the group in the yard a few moments later. Osha agrees to take Rickon and the Reeds agree to go with Bran. Rickon cries and holds onto Hodor's leg until Osha smacks him with the butt of her spear.

 

Bran asks the Reeds if they'll go to Greywater Watch and Jojen replies that they're meant to go north. When they're in the wolfswood, Bran takes one last look at Winterfell.

 

Beyond, the tops of the keeps and towers still stood as they had for hundreds of years, and it was hard to tell that the castle had been sacked and burned at all. The stone is strong, Bran told himself, the roots of the trees go deep, and under the ground the Kings of Winter sit their thrones. So long as those remained, Winterfell remained. It was not dead, just broken. Like me, he thought. I’m not dead either.

[Lady S.]

Yay, another book journey completed. Thank you, Avaleigh!

 

RIP Luwin. This is why I don't like him being included in any anti-magic maester conspiracy or criticized for trying to be the voice of reason against Jojen's hocus-pocus. He failed in his own attempts at magic and didn't believe in what he had no proof of but he still wanted to believe in some supernatural higher power.   Just think of how he far he must have dragged himself after being stabbed to get the godswood and die under the heart tree. A man doesn't go to that much effort in his final moments unless he's a believer. And I doubt he wanted the gods' blessing only for himself. I bet he was praying that Bran and Rickon truly were alive and would continue surviving. Though I'm not sure I fully buy into the theory that he meant his death as an old fashioned blood sacrifice. 

[benteen]

*claps*

 

Great job as always, Aveleigh!  Thanks again for doing this and I look forward to reading your recap of A Storm of Swords.

 

Good finish and Luwin's death scene was strong.  His final scene was one I liked even more on the show because Donald Sumpter absolute nailed it.  I remember some posters wondering if they would retcon his death on the show and keep him alive a little longer.  I understand of course why they didn't but I wouldn't have minded...that's how good Sumpter was in the role.

 

I don't see Luwin being involved in the anti-magic conspiracy ever.  He would argue against magic and discredit it based on science.  But if he saw it in action I believe he would believe.  And probably be happy as he was someone who studied the subject.

 

I do like how close Ohsa has become to the Stark family.  It's not a surprise she's so trusted at the end.

Edited April 22, 2016 by benteen

[Avaleigh]

Thanks guys, I really enjoyed reading this book again seeing how many things I didn't notice that other posters pointed out. That's been one of the most fun things for me. Thanks to everyone who has been reading and participating. I like to think that the sixth book will be out before we finish the reread, fingers crossed.

 

I think we continued with the reread last year as the show was airing it was just at a slower pace IIRC so I thought we'd do that unless more people want to wait until after the season is over.

 

Regarding the final chapter--

 

Luwin's death was even more touching to me on the show. I agree with you, Benteen that Donald Sumpter absolutely nailed how emotional the moment was. I agree too with Lady S. that Luwin was a believer towards the end for sure. I'm glad that he died in the godswood and not in the yard down in the mud. I wonder if Bran would watch a scene like that again in the cave or if he would find it to be too painful. 

 

I won't be surprised if Bran gets the final chapter in A Dream of Spring after all is said and done. Before I was convinced that he would never leave the cave again but now I'm not so sure. I'm about 50/50 on this one now. 

 

I like that Osha is loyal to the Starks but I kind of cringed when she whacked a traumatized four year old kid on the head with her freaking spear. If this kid manages to survive into adulthood and is becomes the Lord of Winterfell who carries on the Stark family name, I'm just imaging the rage issues that he's going to have not to mention what a hard ass he'd probably be as a father. I'm thinking of Ned's frowning when he hears that Rickon is unsure about the direwolves and the stock response that winter is coming. I'm imagining how adult Rickon would react to his kids complaining about anything because he'll pretty much always be able to top them. 'You think you have it rough? When I was a kid I had Freys for playmates, I lost my parents, my siblings, my home, my friends, I had to walk in the snow for miles, I had to learn to survive amongst cannibals and wildlings, and I survived the second Long Night. Get in line if you want to start complaining about how unfair the gods are.'

 

Bran and Rickon's parting wasn't as emotional as I thought it was. For some reason I thought they had more of a moment with each other but not really. Sometimes it seems like their direwolves interact more than they do.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Avaleigh

[WearyTraveler]

Wonderful job, Avaleigh!

 

I'm sorry I haven't been able to participate more this time around.  I got a new job in another country and it's been hectic, hectic, hectic.  I've been keeping up with the thread, though, and I appreciate very much your summaries and all the commentary from everyone else.

 

Can someone post here when we start the next book?  Last time I missed it.

[glowbug]

I want to chime in and say thanks again Avaleigh for this reread and the wonderful recaps. As someone who doesn't have time to do a full reread it's been great and I really appreciate your (and others') insights. This series is a great one to discuss. I'm looking forward to book three whenever you decide to start it and at whatever pace works for you. I'm also looking forward to seeing you and those who decide to watch season 6 over in the episode threads as well. 

Edited April 22, 2016 by glowbug

[benteen]

Yeah, Avaleigh, I do remember Osha whacking Rickon to get him to go.  I get that she'll have to be firm with the kid because without Catelyn and Ned around, he's grown wild.  But I didn't like that either.  And it's still hard to think of this kid as not growing up to be feral and savage as he becomes older and possibly rules Winterfell.

 

The show definitely did much better when it came to Bran and Rickon's departure although it did benefit from having to work with "older" kids.  Bran hugging Rickon in the first book after finding out Ned died was a very sad and emotional scene.

Edited April 23, 2016 by benteen

[Avaleigh]

Yeah, Avaleigh, I do remember Osha whacking Rickon to get him to go.  I get that she'll have to be firm with the kid because without Catelyn and Ned around, he's grown wild.  But I didn't like that either.  And it's still hard to think of this kid as not growing up to be feral and savage as he becomes older and possibly rules Winterfell.

 

The show definitely did much better when it came to Bran and Rickon's departure although it did benefit from having to work with "older" kids.  Bran hugging Rickon in the first book after finding out Ned died was a very sad and emotional scene.

I think Bran lucked out too in that he gets to travel with three familiar faces and people who are already his closest friends whereas Rickon and Osha weren't really hanging out until recently so it's like he got sent to live with the babysitter indefinitely.

 

It occurs to me now that I can't recall when/if Bran finds out about Robb and Catelyn. I'm pretty sure that he does I just don't recall the circumstances so that's something that I'm looking forward to when it comes up. Maybe Bran just sees what happens to Grey Wind via Summer and puts it together from there? 

 

Would it have been impossible for Osha and Rickon to make it to Catelyn in Riverrun? It's good that they didn't do this but I wonder why the suggestion wasn't at least floated when they were talking with Luwin only for them to go over the reasons why it ultimately wouldn't be a good idea. 

[WearyTraveler]

Would it have been impossible for Osha and Rickon to make it to Catelyn in Riverrun? It's good that they didn't do this but I wonder why the suggestion wasn't at least floated when they were talking with Luwin only for them to go over the reasons why it ultimately wouldn't be a good idea. 

 

 

I think that was probably due to the fact that the Ironborn held Moat Cailin.  Theon made that known to everyone in Winterfell, so going South wasn't an option.

[benteen]

I think Bran has a dream about Robb and Catelyn's death that he hopes isn't true but never officially hears about what happened to them.

 

Yeah, the Ironborn held Moat Cailin so there's no way they could have made it.  Considering Osha is a woman of the North (the true North as Craster might put it) she might have difficultly knowing where to go without the help of one of the Reeds.

[Avaleigh]

I was thinking that they could go by sea if they could make it to White Harbor.

[John Potts]

I don't think the Ironborn holding Moat Caitlin would pose much of a problem for four poor travellers. A small party can slip past it: an army couldn't. There would be some risk in doing so, but it wouldn't be completely suicidal. They'd probably be more at risk of getting robbed than kidnapped/murdered.

[Lady S.]

I was thinking that they could go by sea if they could make it to White Harbor.

That's on the wrong coast though. They'd have to go through the Vale, the Crownlands, the Stormlands, or the Bolton-occupied eastern riverlands to get west to Riverrun. Such a journey would probably be too long and too risky for just one woman and a little boy. Even just going down the kingsroad from Moat Cailin would probably be too long and dangerous. I imagine Luwin would have wanted them to avoid the southern war zone entirely and find the absolute nearest safe haven. Not sure Osha exactly succeeded with that, but I guess it's still better to be alive with cannibals than dead with your family or killed trying to reach your family.

[Avaleigh]

That's on the wrong coast though. They'd have to go through the Vale, the Crownlands, the Stormlands, or the Bolton-occupied eastern riverlands to get west to Riverrun. Such a journey would probably be too long and too risky for just one woman and a little boy. Even just going down the kingsroad from Moat Cailin would probably be too long and dangerous. I imagine Luwin would have wanted them to avoid the southern war zone entirely and find the absolute nearest safe haven. Not sure Osha exactly succeeded with that, but I guess it's still better to be alive with cannibals than dead with your family or killed trying to reach your family.

I was thinking that they could sail down from White Harbor to the very north of the Riverlands, head west at the top, and then head down to Riverrun. It's a long journey but they have the time and it certainly sounds like a better idea than heading to a place like Skagos. 

 

Not that any of this matters, I just think it's interesting that the option wasn't discussed when they were going over possibilities of where to go. 

[Jazzy24]

I was thinking that they could sail down from White Harbor to the very north of the Riverlands, head west at the top, and then head down to Riverrun. It's a long journey but they have the time and it certainly sounds like a better idea than heading to a place like Skagos.

Not that any of this matters, I just think it's interesting that the option wasn't discussed when they were going over possibilities of where to go.

But Osha is a Wildling she wouldn't know those other places except by ear while being captive in Winterfell.

Osha knows the north and beyond the Wall so I defiantly see why she took Rickon to Skaggos. She would also know about White Harbor but I think Skaggos is what she's familiar with.

[nodorothyparker]

I've never given it much thought beyond that they're all Northerners and there's war in all points south.  At this point no one besides Osha and a handful of people up at the Wall have any real comprehension that things are about to get bad up there as well.  Going to bannermen of Ned's to ask them to keep Ned's sons safe or at least staying in known territory doesn't really feel like a bad idea on the face of it.  Heading south through occupied Moat Cailin to the wartorn Riverlands when none of them are at all familiar with it and would probably make themselves conspicuous in asking around does.

 

Terrific job in leading this reread, by the way.  It's been both enlightening and entertaining.

[Lady S.]

I was thinking that they could sail down from White Harbor to the very north of the Riverlands, head west at the top, and then head down to Riverrun. It's a long journey but they have the time and it certainly sounds like a better idea than heading to a place like Skagos. 

A better idea than going to Skagos or alone to a war zone with a foreigner would just be staying put in White Harbor with Lord Long-Pork Pie. Perhaps he could get a message down to Riverrun, which still be something, although a bit too late to prevent the mistakes Robb and Cat made in their grief.

[Avaleigh]

On 4/22/2016 at 0:53 PM, WearyTraveler said:

Wonderful job, Avaleigh!

 

I'm sorry I haven't been able to participate more this time around.  I got a new job in another country and it's been hectic, hectic, hectic.  I've been keeping up with the thread, though, and I appreciate very much your summaries and all the commentary from everyone else.

 

Can someone post here when we start the next book?  Last time I missed it.

Thanks again. I'm starting the third book today. The prologue will be up in a bit. :)