The Official Re-Read Project: Book 2: A Clash Of Kings

[Lady S.]

Wow, I didn't even realize that about Tyrion Tanner being listed in the appendix. Agreed, tasteless.

 

I'd just assumed that he was Tyrion Waters. Did Bronn choose Tanner so that he won't be considered a bastard?

Yeah, I saw pointed it out somewhere in the rape debate of s5 on the subject of Martin's supposed sensitivity dealing with rape.

He's still a bastard without the name Stokeworth. I think Bronn was just having a sick laugh. If he just didn't want baby Tyrion to be a Waters, there were surely other names that didn't refer to how Lollys was found after the riot.

[Avaleigh]

Yeah, I saw pointed it out somewhere in the rape debate of s5 on the subject of Martin's supposed sensitivity dealing with rape.

He's still a bastard without the name Stokeworth. I think Bronn was just having a sick laugh. If he just didn't want baby Tyrion to be a Waters, there were surely other names that didn't refer to how Lollys was found after the riot.

I don't know why I expected more of Bronn but I did. 

 

Davos is up next. I've really been looking forward to this chapter. 

[benteen]

I remember later in the book, Tyrion tells Bronn that he wants no more rapes among the Gold Cloaks (I think it was the Gold Cloaks).  Bronn's answer is basically "they're not septons.  What do you expect?"  Bronn is a lot more likeable on the show than in the books and definitely has an unseemly side.  How he views rape is one and the fact that he'll kill anyone to get ahead.

 

Though yeah, GRRM's "running joke" about what happened to Lollys certainly isn't a high point of his riding.  I'm pleasantly surprised the show didn't pick up that subplot and liked the little we saw of TV Lollys.

 

I can definitely understand the smallfolk being angry with Tyrion for bringing in the Mountain clans but I do admit being annoyed with how they treat him considering he's the only one who has shown any concern for protecting the city.

 

Tyrion definitely should have listened to Bronn about getting rid of Joffrey.

 

I might have missed it, Avaleigh, but do they mention that they married Tyrek Lannister to an baby so he could rule her lands?  That always creeped me out.

 

Tyrek is another one of those characters who disappeared down a rabbit hole like Benjen Stark and Hallis Mollen.  It's scary when you think about it how people can just disappear forever in this world and nobody can ever find them.  As far as Robb and Catelyn knew, Arya was either dead or missing.  GRRM later shows (in frustratingly long detail) how difficult it truly is to find someone in later books.

[Avaleigh]

I might have missed it, Avaleigh, but do they mention that they married Tyrek Lannister to an baby so he could rule her lands? That always creeped me out.

Someone in this chapter makes a joke about how "Wet Nurse" hasn't been seen and I think there was another reference to Tyrek having this nickname earlier in the book. 

 

Tyrek just seemed embarrassed about having an infant for a bride. It definitely wasn't his decision. 

 

I do appreciate that part of the reason Tyrion wants Tyrek found is because of the fond feelings he has for Tyrek's father. From what we hear about Tywin's brothers they all seem okay for the most part. 

[benteen]

Good point, Avaleigh.  Two his uncles he was particularly close with and they seemed to care a lot about Tyrion.  I'm not sure how close he and Kevan was but Kevan at least seemed to have respect for him and would give him credit where credit was due.  It's interesting to note that Tyrion was despised by his entire family.  Jaime loved him, as did Myrcella and Tommen.  At least two of his uncles cared about him and I suspect Genna did too.  It's Tywin, Cersei and Joffrey that absolutely despised him.

Edited March 7, 2016 by benteen

[Lady S.]

Someone in this chapter makes a joke about how "Wet Nurse" hasn't been seen and I think there was another reference to Tyrek having this nickname earlier in the book. 

 

I do appreciate that part of the reason Tyrion wants Tyrek found is because of the fond feelings he has for Tyrek's father. From what we hear about Tywin's brothers they all seem okay for the most part.

Horas Redwyne was the one who brought up "Wet Nurse". I think he could stand to be a little more sensitive to nicknames with everyone calling him Horror and his brother Slobber.

I also liked knowing Tygett was a good uncle to Tyrion. I think he's the one of Tywin's siblings we know the least about, just that Genna characterized him as a good fighter frustrated by living in Tywin's shadow. It makes sense that the siblings less in thrall to Tywin would be good to Tyrion. I think Kevan was probably the uncle who spent the most time around Tywin and his kids. He was always pretty warm to Tyrion from what we've seen and could genuinely appreciate Tyrion, but he was also Tywin's partner in crime which including helping manipulate Tyrion at least twice that we saw. I don't think Tyrion really had much against Kevan but he probably liked his dead uncles better.

[benteen]

From what I recall, Tyrion didn't a high opinion of Kevan because he thought he never had an idea his father didn't have first.  But was surprised in the next book when he found out that Kevan really did love his Tywin.  But in general, their relationship was definitely better than Tyrion's relationship with Tywin and Cersei was.

Edited March 7, 2016 by benteen

[nodorothyparker]

I completely missed that Bronn named Lollys' baby TANNER too.  If I'd ever given the matter any thought at all beyond being mildly amused that he did in fact name the kid Tyrion, I would have assumed he would have borne the usual bastard's name.

 

Bronn is pretty cocky for a common sellsword here to be helping himself to dinner without waiting to be invited and then outright stating what they're all clearly starting to think about swapping Tommen for Joffrey, but Tyrion made him and continuing to elevate him is only emboldening him further.  TV Bronn may be a mostly lovable rogue with a lot of great one liners but book Bronn is a much darker character who's going to make the absolute most he can from his association with Lannister wealth and power.  This is the same guy who will eventually take out the rest of the Stokeworth family to become his own lord with a castle, after all.

 

I remember on my initial reads of this and the next couple of books being a little surprised that Tywin's siblings and the rest of the extended Lannister clan were generally okay people with the usual loyalties and loves and concerns.  Tywin and the children he created and raised are so extreme even within their family but as the most public face of that family that's what most people would assume they all are.  Lancel's obviously got some issues, but Daven and Genna are fairly likable.

Edited March 7, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[benteen]

Tywin deserves a lot of the blame for creating the toxic atmosphere around his children.  Cersei certainly embraced that and passed it down to Joffrey.

 

Good mention about Daven.  I forgot that he's a likeable Lannister too.

[netlyon2]

Tyrion comes off less clueless than Joffrey and Cersei about public sentiment toward them all because at least he's noticing the crowd, but only by degrees as evidenced by his astonishment at Bywater telling him he's hated most of all.

 

Tyrion made it pretty clear to me (again) that he just doesn't care that much about the common people of King's Landing. He doesn't care if Flea Bottom burns, there's no discussion whatsoever about getting more food to the people. He's going to continue eating (and wasting) capon, Cersei's still going to have ridiculously elaborate dinners--Pycelle may have laid a spare table for show, but the end result was the same. He was one of the few prominent people in King's Landing who took the right attitude about how people were starving and all Tyrion did was complain inwardly about how he couldn't have any honey that day for his breakfast. Just that small sacrifice was something that Tyrion felt was too much.

Cersei's extremes definitely make him look more moderate, but Tyrion is such a freakin' Lannister!  For all the crap readers (myself included) tend to give Cersei for her arrogant and elitist views, it is pretty evident that Tyrion learned the same lessons from Tywin that she did.  It seems like he is so caught up playing the game with the high-level pieces (and, to be fair, legitimately trying to defend the city) that he ignores not only the welfare of the commonfolk, but also the power a mass of pawns can command.  I wonder how things would have gone if he had been sent to KL without the threat of imminent invasion or how ASOS would have been different had he been more deft in handling public opinion in ACOK.

 

I remember later in the book, Tyrion tells Bronn that he wants no more rapes among the Gold Cloaks (I think it was the Gold Cloaks).  Bronn's answer is basically "they're not septons.  What do you expect?"  Bronn is a lot more likeable on the show than in the books and definitely has an unseemly side.  How he views rape is one and the fact that he'll kill anyone to get ahead.

[snip]

Tyrion definitely should have listened to Bronn about getting rid of Joffrey.

 

Bronn is pretty cocky for a common sellsword here to be helping himself to dinner without waiting to be invited and then outright stating what they're all clearly starting to think about swapping Tommen for Joffrey, but Tyrion made him and continuing to elevate him is only emboldening him further.  TV Bronn may be a mostly lovable rogue with a lot of great one liners but book Bronn is a much darker character who's going to make the absolute most he can from his association with Lannister wealth and power.  This is the same guy who will eventually take out the rest of the Stokeworth family to become his own lord with a castle, after all.

It's interesting:  until this re-read I'd never noticed how much Bronn serves a (less flamboyant and less sexualized) parallel function to Daario.  We've got these sellswords who basically function as the embodiment of Tyrion's and Dany's more violent urges, the extreme actions which our POV characters must repress in order to be successful rulers.  Cool.

 

And, yes, Bronn is actually rather horrible.  Whenever I read his scenes, I find myself simultaneously charmed and repulsed by him.  I guess he was fairly loyal to Tyrion, even beyond when it was reasonably lucrative, but I still think Tyrion's reliance on him was ill-advised.

[benteen]

I will say one thing about Bronn.  He is a realistic and unsentimental rogue.  He’s not Han Solo flying to the rescue.  He’s out for himself and he stays true to that.  It was in his best interest to champion Tyrion at the Eyrie and it paid off for him.  Facing off against the Mountain would have been an extremely high risk and little reward (quite possibly no reward) for him and he stayed true to himself and declined, taking a marriage with the chance for upward mobility.  I think he would have helped Tyrion if he could have but if Tyrion can’t get him what he wants and the risk is too high, it’s time to move on and he did.

 

Bronn is one of the most realistic characters you're going to find in fantasy.

Edited March 8, 2016 by benteen

[Avaleigh]

Davos II

 

Davos has joined the rest of Stannis's fleet off of Storm's End. It's been eight days since he's been back but this is the first time that he's been able to get close to Stannis even though he requested an audience on the day of his return. He was told that Stannis is occupied and notes that Stannis does seem to be very bury these days now that he's come into some of his power.

 

Davos's son Devan gives him an idea of what Stannis has been up to lately and confides in his father that Stannis has been having terrible nightmares ever since Renly died. Devan says that only the Lady Melisandre is able to soothe Stannis to sleep and Davos wonders to himself if this is why Melisandre is sharing Stannis's pavilion now. Davos wonders if Melisandre is doing more than praying with Stannis but decides it's an unworthy question, and one that he dare not ask.

 

Ser Cortnay Penrose has arrived to speak with Stannis. If Ser Cortnay is impressed by the size of Stannis's party, it doesn't show on his face. He's not wearing armor and when he addresses Stannis he addresses him as he would a lord. Lord Alester Forent tells Ser Cortnay that he should address Stannis as he would a king, but Cortnay just ignores Florent and speaks to Stannis directly.

 

Ser Cortnay acknowledges the notable company and seems to recognize everyone but Melisandre. Melisandre introduces herself and tells Cortnay that she serves Stannis and the Lord of Light. Cortnay replies that he bows to a different king and different gods. Florent tells Cortnay that there's only one true god and one true king, and Cortnay says that if he'd known they were going to be debating theology he would have brought along a septon.

 

Stannis tells Cortnay that he's out of patience and commands him to open the gates and give him that which is his by rights. Cortnay asks about the terms and Stannis says that the men will be allowed to join him or leave freely without being harmed. Cortnay's main concern seems to be Edric Storm and Stannis insists that Edric be handed over as part of the deal.

 

Cortay replies that his answer then is still no, so Stannis clenches his jaw and Melisandre says that she hopes the Lord of Light protects Ser Cortnay in his darkness.

 

"May the Others bugger your Lord of Light," Penrose spat back, "and wipe his arse with that rag you bear."

 

Alester tries to get Cortnay to agree to hand Edric over to him since Edric's mother was a Florent; he asks Cortnay to trust him and says Cortnay knows him to be a man of honor. Cortnay says he knows Alester to be an ambitious man who changes gods and kings the way other men change their boots. Cortnay says the same goes for the other turncloaks that he sees before him.

 

The guys who used to be with Renly bristle over the word turncloak and Bryce Caron tries to claim that no man there is guilty of being one. Cortnay wonders where Tyrell, Rowan, and Tarly are. He also asks after Brienne and when he's told that she killed Renly, he immediately says that it's a lie. He says that even a blind person would be able to see that she loved Renly.

 

Cortnay has words for Lord Caron and Guyard Morrigen and asks them how they're alive when Renly is not especially Guyard who was apart of Renly's rainbow guard. Morrigen tells Cortnay that he'd have his tongue out if this weren't a parley, and Cortnay accuses Morrigen of being unmanned. Stannis has had enough and tells them all that it doesn't matter who killed Renly. He says the bottom line is that the Lord of Light willed Renly to die for his treason and that's what happened.

 

Cortnay tells Stannis that he's heard his proposal and is ready for Stannis to hear his. He pulls of his glove and throws it right in Stannis's face. He challenges Stannis to single combat and says if Stannis is too scared to risk his royal skin then Stannis may name a champion. He looks at Morrigen and Caron and says that either of them would do nicely.

 

Morrigen and Caron are both up for the challenge but Stannis says no. Cortnay doesn't seem surprised and asks Stannis if it's the justice of his cause that he doubts or the strength in his arm. Stannis says he'd be a fool to take the chance of single combat when he has twenty thousand men in addition to having Cortnay completely besieged. He tells Cortnay that if he's forced to take the castle by storm that he won't show any mercy and that he'll hang Cortnay along with his men.

 

"As the gods will it. Bring on your storm, my lord - and recall, if you do, the name of this castle." Ser Cortnay gave a pull on his reins and rode back toward the gate.

 

Lord Estermont says if they storm the walls then thousands on their side will die. He thinks it might be better to put only one life at risk. The other men seem to agree for the most part but Stannis tells them that they talk like magpies only with less sense. He asks Davos to ride with him, and Melisandre ends up following along. Davos can see that the other men are miffed and guesses that Renly probably never talked to any of them that way.

 

Now that Davos is getting a good look at Stannis he sees how tired and haggard he looks. Stannis wants to know what Davos thinks of Ser Cortnay. Davos says that Cortnay seems stubborn. Stannis thinks Cortnay is hungry to die and thinks that Cortnay must have mistaken him for Robert when he made the single combat suggestion. Davos guesses that Cortnay probably put the single combat idea out there out of desperation.

 

Stannis says that the castle will fall but isn't sure how to do it quickly. Lord Alester thinks that they should maybe bring over Cortnay's father Lord Penrose. Lord Alester thinks that if they put a rope around the old man's neck that maybe Cortnay will relent. Davos is against this idea. He says that Cortnay is still unlikely to give in and murdering Lord Penrose would only bring dishonor to their cause.

 

Stannis can tell that Davos has more respect for Cortnay than for new lords he's gained and Davos explains that Cortnay has kept his faith. Davos says that Renly's men may be with him today but who's to say where they'll stand tomorrow. Stannis laughs at this and tells Melisandre that he always gets the truth from his Onion Knight. Melisandre admits that Stannis knows Davos well.

 

After telling Davos that he's missed him, Stannis admits that he hates the idea of pardoning these guys when he's punished better men in the past for lesser crimes. He says that Davos has every right to reproach him.

 

Davos touches the bones of his fingers that he wears around his neck and Stannis asks him why he still keeps them. Davos says that remind him of who he is, where he comes from, and of Stannis's justice.

 

"It was justice," Stannis said. "A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. Each should have its own reward. You were a hero and a smuggler." He glanced behind at Lord Florent and the others, rainbow knights and turncloaks, who were following at a distance. "These pardoned lords would do well to reflect on that. Good men and true will fight for Joffrey, wrongly believing him the true king. A northman might even say the same of Robb Stark. But these lords who flocked to my brother's banners knew him for a usurper. They turned their backs on their rightful king for no better reason than dreams of power and glory, and I have marked them for what they are. Pardoned them, yes. Forgiven. But not forgotten."

 

Stannis asks what the smallfolk have to say about Renly's death and admits that he grieves for his brother. He says he grieves for the boy that Renly was rather than for the man he became. He confides to Davos that he dreams of Renly's death sometimes. He goes over the moment when Renly offered him the peach and thinks that he'll go to his grave thinking about it.

 

Davos, Stannis, and Melisandre head back to Stannis's pavilion and Stannis tells Melisandre that he'll send for her when he needs her. Stannis presents the options he has and asks Davos what he thinks the best course of action is. Davos says that they should head for King's Landing and explains his reasons.

 

Stannis doesn't like the idea of people saying that he was defeated at Storm's End and refuses to leave it untaken. Ser Cortnay's lieutenant just happens to be a cousin of the Fossoways and Stannis thinks that he'd be willing to play ball and open the gates if something were to happen to Cortnay. Davos says that Cortnay seems pretty healthy looking and Stannis replies by saying that Renly did too the day before his death. He reminds Davos that 'the night is dark and full of terrors.'

 

Davos is creeped out and tells Stannis that he doesn't understand. Stannis says that Davos doesn't need to understand, he only needs to continue to be of service. He goes on to say that Melisandre has seen Cortnay's death in the flames. Stannis is sure that Melisandre's flames don't lie and swears that she saw Renly's death too.

 

Davos wants to know what Stannis wants him to do and Stannis says that he needs Davos to take Melisandre and land a boat beneath the castle without being seen. Davos tries to get Stannis to agree to allow Ser Cortnay to keep Edric Storm but Stannis refuses and says that Melisandre has seen in her flames that Stannis must have the boy.

 

Davos does as Stannis commands even though he's uncomfortable with the task. Melisandre tells Davos that she can smell the fear coming off of him. Davos replies that someone once told him that 'the night is dark and full of terrors'. Melisandre wonders if she's the one Davos fears or if he's more scared about what they're doing. Davos tries to put it all on Melisandre but she tells him that he's playing his part by taking her beneath the castle.

 

She asks Davos if he's a good man and he wonders if a good man would be doing what he's in the process of doing. Davos thinks that he's a mixed bag with both good and bad qualities. He says that he's never felt evil until tonight. She asks if he's a grey man and Davos guesses that most men are grey. Melisandre says that if half of an onion is black then the entire onion is considered to be rotten. She says that a man is either good or evil.

 

Davos asks Melisandre if she's good or evil and she assures him that she's good. She says that she's a champion of light and of life. Davos brings up the fact that she's going to kill another man tonight just as she killed Maester Cressen. Melisandre says that Cressen poisoned himself and explains that she was protected by a greater power. He asks her who killed Renly Baratheon and Melisandre claims that it wasn't her. Davos calls her a liar and she replies that Davos is lost in darkness and confusion.

 

Davos asks Melisandre who rowed her to Renly but she says that there wasn't a need to get closer to Renly because he was unprotected. Storm's End though is an old place that is protected by ancient spells that no shadow will be able to pass.

 

Davos feels chilled when she starts talking about shadows and tells her that a shadow is a creature of darkness. Melisandre claims that shadows are servants of light. 

 

Davos rows them the rest of the way and when Melisandre gets confirmation that they're past the enchanted walls, she takes off her robe and Davos is shocked to see that she's hugely pregnant. Black blood is running down her thighs and Davos sees a dark head pushing its way out of her. Once the shadow completely slides out of Melisandre, Davos sees that it's even taller than he is. He only has a moment to look at the shadow before it quickly leaves. Davos recognizes the shadow just as he knows the man who cast it. 

[Avaleigh]

I love Cortnay Penrose. Seriously. Nothing but love for this character. It took my breath away when he threw that glove in his face. I couldn't help but laugh. 

 

I like that Cortnay was able to make them some of the men feel ashamed of themselves on some level even if they won't admit it. 

 

I wonder how Cortnay knows in his heart that Edric Storm's life is in danger? He doesn't know anything about Melisandre. his suspicions are on point, but where do they come from? Did Maester Cressen write him? Even if he did, would Cressen really suspect that Edric Storm would be in danger? I wonder if Mel has already hinted about what she needs Edric for. 

 

I like that Cortnay automatically knows that the idea of Brienne killing Renly is an absurd lie. 

 

Is it safe to assume that Stannis witnessed Melisandre giving birth to a shadow the night Renly died? I know he didn't mention it but it makes sense to me that witnessing some shit like that would be the stuff that nightmares are made of. I'm surprised Davos didn't accidentally fall out of the boat. 

[benteen]

I had forgotten about the glove.  Heheh.  Penrose really had a death wish, didn't he?

 

This chapter confirms that Stannis and Melisanddre are sleeping together.

[nodorothyparker]

I get such a kick out of Ser Cortnay that I'm truly sorry to see him killed by one of Mel's shadow babies in the same chapter we meet him.  He truly just gives no fucks here at all after watching the Baratheon brothers basically destroy their own house.  I love love love him challenging Stannis to combat with the glove and needling the noblemen about their fickleness.  

 

I also love that Davos is able to understand where he's coming from enough to respect him for it and then get Stannis to acknowledge that much of what the old guy is saying isn't wrong.  Stannis's 11th-hour supporters are only there now by default.  For most, he's the third "king" they've backed in less than a year and if he falls tomorrow they'll be jumping to back a fourth.  This of course gives us a quick speed round of Stannis Baratheon: Everybody Loved My Brothers Better Than Me. 

 

The fact that Stannis basically sees Renly's murder in his dreams makes me wonder exactly what he's seen too.  I really don't get how Mel's magic works so I don't know if he was seeing it through the eyes of the shadow baby or how much he even understands his culpability here.  I think it's telling that he makes a point of saying that when he awoke he was still in his bed and his hands were clean.

 

I had no coherent comment about the birthing the shadow baby scene when I first saw it on TV and I still really have no comment reading it.

[Lady S.]

Is it safe to assume that Stannis witnessed Melisandre giving birth to a shadow the night Renly died? I know he didn't mention it but it makes sense to me that witnessing some shit like that would be the stuff that nightmares are made of. I'm surprised Davos didn't accidentally fall out of the boat.

I think the nightmare he described to Davos was him experiencing in his sleep his shadow killing Renly, somewhat like the Starks' wolf dreams. And that first dream was so vivid and horrifying that it keeps haunting him. There is some ambiguity about what Stannis did or didn't know about how Renly would die. I think he was complicit, but it is highly plausible that Mel didn't explain the specific mechanics of how Renly would be killed, especially since Stannis wouldn't believe in such craziness until he had proof. I don't think Mel would feel the need to show him the shadow's birth, she would have probably done the second one alone if Davos hadn't been needed to get her to Storm's End.

It's strange to me that some Stan stans interpret that passage as proof of Stannis's innocence. Sure, he's confused but also clearly feeling guilt. The correct answer for an innocent man to being asked about delivering justice for Renly's murder would include something along the lines of "I have no clue who killed him." not "I was asleep when he died, my hands are clean". Offering an alibi to a crime you haven't been directly accused of feels like a pretty strong sign of guilt to me. His line about it not mattering who killed Renly because he was a traitor makes no sense from the law and order candidate. Renly wasn't executed for treason, he was murdered, and if Brienne or Catelyn or anyone else not on Team Stannis had done it, their motives certainly wouldn't have included Renly's treason against Stannis. If Stannis didn't know at all who killed Renly he should be angry and searching for the truth because Renly was his to kill in battle not anyone else's to murder for their own reasons. If an enemy needing to be killed meant it didn't matter who killed him, why did Stannis agree with Ned about sending Jaime to the Wall? Either he knows on some level that he's a kinslayer or he's just a massive, massive hypocrite. Personally, I think the first option is more likely.

I've always wondered about Cortnay's refusal to give up Edric too. I don't think even Stannis knows about the kingsblood baloney at this point, he seems to be just taking Mel's word that the boy's important after what she's already done for him, so I don't see how Cortnay Penrose could really know the danger Edric might be in. I guess just suspecting that Stannis played a part in Renly's murder and that the Red God is pretty sinister is enough to make him believe Stannis isn't insisting on being Edric's new guardian out of any familial loyalty.

 

This chapter confirms that Stannis and Melisanddre are sleeping together.

Yep, that was something that really struck me on my last re-read. Mel/Stannis and Loras/Renly are both all but stated outright as having sex. If Davos so readily believes it, that's a pretty good indicator imo. That's another reason I believe Stannis and Mel murdered Renly and Penrose together. Davos believes it and he otherwise always thinks the best of Stannis. Mel denies that she killed Renly but has no problem saying she didn't need anyone's help to get close to Renly, so it's not like she's hiding anything from Stannis.

Lord Florent comes off like a real ass here though I still don't think he deserved to be burned alive.

[benteen]

About Davos's reaction, check out this GOT parody cartoon for what his reaction might have been.  At about 1:33...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X30KVdAjv34

Edited March 9, 2016 by benteen

[Avaleigh]

Oh wow, I totally forgot that book Alester ends up burning alive. I don't remember the circumstances about this at all. I recall something like this happening on the show and I remember Shireen getting smart with Mel "afterward they aren't ash and bone" but I'm drawing a blank on the specifics. Yikes, kind of makes you wonder what he was thinking about when he realized he was about to get charred. 

 

Re: the parody video, I love him rowing away. Davos seems like he's too stunned to move or speak. He doesn't panic or anything it's mostly just, 'Hey, that shadow looks kind of familiar...' 

 

Mel's denial about Renly is such bullshit because she makes it clear that she thinks Davos is just as accountable as she is for what's about to happen to Penrose. 

[Lady S.]

Oh wow, I totally forgot that book Alester ends up burning alive. I don't remember the circumstances about this at all. I recall something like this happening on the show and I remember Shireen getting smart with Mel "afterward they aren't ash and bone" but I'm drawing a blank on the specifics. 

In the book he sent peace terms to the Lannisters after Blackwater behind Stan's back, offering Shireen as a bride for Tommen. Understandable that Stannis would be pissed about that betrayal, but still a horrible way to go.

 

I wonder if Mel's "shadows are the children of fire" line is just her own way of reconciling her religion and the shadowbinding she's learned. Is there any significance to the fact that Renly was feeling cold in the moments before his death?

 

On the subject of Renly's faithless knights of summer, I noticed that Stannis sent Parmen Crane along with his brother-in-law as envoys to Renly's host at Bitterbridge. Parmen Crane was a member of the Rainbow Guard, standing with Emmon Cuy guarding the royal pavilion when Cat arrived with Robar Royce in Catelyn IV. Yet Parmen didn't rush in with Robar, Emmon, and the two men-at-arms in the immediate aftermath of Renly's death, and apparently he managed to avoid Loras's rampage of revenge. Did this guy just turn and run the other way as soon as he heard screaming inside Renly's tent?

[nodorothyparker]

I guess when you're dependent on fire god supplied magic to snuff out your enemies, sacrificial burning is inevitably going to end up your preferred method of execution.  Alester Florent is his hand of the king and speaks for him.  Since offering peace terms to the crown could only be seen as accepting defeat and giving up his own claim, there's no way Stannis can not treat that as treason.

 

As cheeky as Ser Cortnay is here about Mel and her red god, you know he's heard some things and that's probably enough reason to not want to hand Edric Storm over even before you get into all the weirdness surrounding Renly's murder.  There are several mentions in Tyrion's chapters about people hearing about Stannis's red woman and strange foreign god.

[Avaleigh]

Jon V

 

The blast of the warhorn signals the arrival of Qhorin Halfhand and the men from the Shadow Tower. Mormont says they're long overdue and tells Jon that he'll see Qhorin at once.

 

When the men from the Shadow Tower start to arrive, Jon can see that several of them are wounded. He spots Qhorin right away and tells him that Mormont would like to speak with him. After making sure that his men and horses are going to be taken care of, Qhorin follows Jon back to Mormont's tent. Qhorin recognizes Jon and tells him that he looks like Ned. He tells Jon that he knew both Ned and Lord Rickard. He also asks Jon about his direwolf.

 

Qhorin explains to Mormont that they were delayed because of Alfyn Crowkiller. Qhorin says that they were able to kill Alfyn and most of his wildlings, but there were still a few who managed to escape. Four men of the Night's Watch were killed in the fighting and a dozen were wounded.

 

Mormont and Qhorin continue their conversation inside of Mormont's tent and Jon waits for them outside by the fire. Jon thinks about how he overheard Chett and a few other men talking about refusing to obey the Old Bear's orders. Jon considers informing Mormont but ultimately decides that he doesn't want snitch on his brothers.

 

Jon thinks about how he made a few dragonglass daggers for some of his brothers and about how he gave the cracked warhorn to Sam since Sam has an appreciation for old things. Sam is also given some of the dragonglass.

 

Jon brings food for Mormont and Qhorin and listens to them discussing how to proceed. Qhorin says that Mance and the wildlings plan on trying to breach the Wall, and Qhorin thinks that Mance is searching for something specific. Qhorin says that they'll have to send scouts into the mountains to find out for sure what power Mance is looking for. Mormont is reluctant to risk more men but Qhorin thinks it would be a good idea to send fifteen men in three parties of five.

 

Mormont reluctantly agrees to Qhorin's plan and allows Qhorin to choose his men. Jon is the first guy that Qhorin picks even after Mormont points out how young Jon is and the fact that he isn't a ranger.

 

"Tollett can care for you as well, my lord." Qhorin lifted his maimed, two-fingered hand. "The old gods are still strong beyond the Wall. The gods of the First Men . . . and the Starks."

 

Mormont asks Jon what he wants to do and Jon immediately says that he wants to go. The Old Bear gives a sad smile and is unsurprised with Jon's choice. Qhorin tells Jon that they ride at noon so he'd better find his direwolf.

[Avaleigh]

I'm not sure how I feel about Jon not giving the Old Bear a heads up that he might be on the verge of having a mutiny on his hands. I can understand him not wanting to be a snitch but I'm not sure if ignoring it was the right solution.

[Lady S.]

I'm not sure how I feel about Jon not giving the Old Bear a heads up that he might be on the verge of having a mutiny on his hands. I can understand him not wanting to be a snitch but I'm not sure if ignoring it was the right solution.

Well, in hindsight it sends up red flags, but I don't think Jon knew enough to take them seriously. Even with Chett's last line about not giving the Old Bear a choice, it sounds more like they just wanted to desert before anyone asked them to fight. I feel like Jon should have had more of a reaction if he recognized that Chett was plotting murder. Even if Jon interpreted it as a true threat and warned Mormont, I'm not sure it could make much difference. Jeor was firmly set on his foolhardy course and it was a different mutiny that ended up killing him anyway.

 

I liked the set-up for Stan's northern arc with Mormont wanting all the kings, true and false, to be warned because they should all be prepared to defend the realms they claim. That's a major theme in these books, especially as regards the War of Five Kings. The Lannisters have no concept of a king's duty toward his realm and its peoples, and at this point, neither of the Baratheon brothers really showed much concern for that duty either.

 

The Halfhand is a character really given the shaft by the show, and I enjoy Jon's chapters with him, but I do disagree with his notion that even if all them died their lives would be well spent. Granted, he couldn't know that the Starks would soon be in no position to rally the north, but there's also the assumption that the men left at the Wall would use their time wisely to prepare. Did Mormont relay instructions about what needed to be done? Because Bowen Marsh did not garrison the other castles, repair all the catapults or seal all the gates. Castle Black could have really used a commander who knew what he was doing when the time came. And at this point, they've just completely dropped the questions about the missing rangers and forgotten that there are other enemies out there besides Mance Rayder.

 

Also, and this is probably just another case of GRRM not understanding numbers, but unless their moon is a lot slower than ours, I think it would take more than one moon's turn for the wildlings to construct a stable stairway or ramp seven fucking hundred feet high, especially since they're not exactly advanced in the field of engineering from what we've seen of them.

[benteen]

I always found it interesting that Qhorin knew Lord Rickard and Ned and I wish he would have talked more about that.

 

I totally agree that Qhorin was given the short shift on the show.  His character and his relationship with Jon was one of the worst adaptations. 

 

Agreed that Jon should have at least given Mormont the heads-up about the malcontents.

[Avaleigh]

Tyrion X

 

Lancel informs Tyrion that Cersei is going to have Tommen sent away. The plan is for Lord Gyles to bring Tommen to Rosby where he'll be disguised and everyone will be told that he's the son of a hedge knight.

 

Tyrion has Bronn give a message to Jacelyn Bywater with instructions to intercept Lord Gyles's party. He wants Bywater to take Tommen on to Rosby and expel the garrsion that is currently in place. There's a lorship in it for Bywater if all goes well. Tyrion thinks that getting Tommen out of the city was one of his sister's better ideas. Tyrion doesn't give Bronn the job because he doesn't trust him.

 

Tyrion goes to visit Shae but this time he goes to her house directly instead of going through Chataya's. Shae is being entertained by a singer and Tyrion gives the singer a little shit for not having the sense to pretend to not recognize him.

 

Varys comes dressed as a begging brother but Shae easily sees through the disguise, and Tyrion seems pretty impressed. Varys says he has bad news and tells Tyrion about the death of Ser Cortnay Penrose. Tyrion had expected Storm's End to hold out for at least half a year and realizes that he now has to deal with the arrival of Stannis even sooner than expected.

 

Shae tells Tyrion that she wants to be his lady and wants to have his children. She says that she isn't afraid of Cersei and when Tyrion admits that he is, Shae suggests that Tyrion have his sister killed.

 

Tyrion sighed. "She's my sister. The man who kills his own blood is cursed forever in the sight of gods and men. Moreover, whatever you and I may think of Cersei, my father and brother hold her dear. I can scheme with any man in the Seven Kingdoms, but the gods have not equipped me to face Jaime with swords in hand."

 

Shae argues that Robb and Stannis both have swords and Tyrion isn't scared of them. Tyrion says the difference is that against Robb and Stannis he can use all of the power of House Lannister. It isn't going to be that way if he goes up against Jaime and his father.

 

Tyrion says that he might be able to get Shae a job in the kitchens with Varys's help. Shae doesn't seem wild about the idea of working in the kitchens and asks Tyrion if he can't just get her a few more guards. Tyrion tells her that it will be safer for her in the Red Keep.

 

Shae claims that she ran away from her father because he tried to make her his kitchen wench. Tyrion reminds Shae that she claimed to have runaway from her father because of the way he made her his whore. Shae's like, yeah, that too. She asks Tyrion why she can't stay with him in the Tower of the Hand and he reminds her that his father warned him not to. Shae asks Tyrion if Tywin is going to spank him or something and this makes Tyrion slap Shae in the face. He tells her to never mock him. Shae apologizes for being impudent and Tyrion thinks to himself that he never meant to hurt her. He wonders if he's turning into Cersei.

 

Tyrion gives Shae the details about Tysha and Tywin and asks her not to talk to him anymore about going to live in the Tower of the Hand. He promises that she'll only be in the kitchens for a short while and then she'll be able to go back to living in another manse. Shae seems worried about what will happen to her hands if she has to spend all day scrubbing ovens and cleaning plates. Tyrion kisses Shae on the cheek where he slapped her and tells her that he'll send for her when he can.

 

Varys waits in the stables to ride back with Tyrion and Tyrion is wondering why he shared the story about Tysha with Shae. He thinks to himself that there are some secrets that shouldn't be told and thinks that he ought to have taken that one with him to the grave. Tyrion explains to Varys that he wants to be able to bring Shae into the Red Keep and tells him about his kitchen idea.

 

Varys warns Tyrion that kitchens are full of gossip and that Shae is going to have to lie her ass off in order to keep people from being suspicious. He's also says that Shae is likely going to incite lust in various men who are used to being free with their hands. Varys suggests making Shae a personal maid to Lady Tanda's daughter Lollys. He says that Shae could be brought to Tyrion in secret and indicates that there's a hidden door Tyrion's room.

 

The conversation returns to the death of Cortnay Penrose. Tyrion wants to know how it happened and is told that Penrose threw himself from a tower. Tyrion doesn't believe it and asks Varys what he believes happened. Varys asks Tyrion if he believes in the 'old powers' and goes into the story of how he was cut.

 

A man made an offer for Varys when he was a boy that was too good for Varys's master to pass up. The man drugs Varys, cuts off his manhood, and puts it on a brazier. The flames turn blue, the man chants, and some creepy voice answers him back. Varys explains that this is why he hates magic and says that if Stannis is somebody who is into magic then he means to see him dead. Tyrion tells Varys that he's sorry and Varys can see that Tyrion doesn't believe his story.

 

Tyrion goes back to Ser Cortnay's death and wonders if it's possible that Stannis hired a skilled assassin. Varys says that the assassin would have to be very skilled indeed and Tyrion replies that such assassins do exist. He thinks about how he used to wish he'd have enough money to hire a Faceless Man to kill Cersei.

 

Tyrion thinks about how Stannis is coming and laughs over the idea that the 'evil dwarf' who is unpopular with the people is the only one standing between them and full blown chaos.

[benteen]

Tyrion slapping Shae...definitely a low moment for him and one they never were going to put in the show.

 

I thought Varys's story was interesting and I do believe he was telling the truth in this case. 

[Avaleigh]

Tyrion and Shae both get on my nerves here, honestly. They both seem confused or like they're conveniently forgetting what their deal is with each other. Shae's suggestion of posting more guards makes it seem like she has no understanding of the idea that *war* is coming to King's Landing. Tyrion slaps her around for not automatically understanding the evil reality that is Tywin Lannister? Plus, he slaps her when she says what she's honestly thinking yet he acts like he wants her to be genuine with him.

 

I'm also unsure of what to make of Shae's inconsistent story as far as her background. What's the point in her lying about her past? 

 

When I look at the way Tyrion is in this chapter it isn't that hard for me to see how he ended up becoming that insufferable character that we meet in ADWD. The seeds were definitely planted. 

 

I believe Varys's story but I don't know what to make of it other than suspecting that the man who cut him has something to do with R'hllor. 

 

I do like that we get Tyrion giving Shae his thoughts about kinslaying. Here she is encouraging him to kill a member of his family and when he finally does give into that impulse, Shae's going to get caught up in it. 

[Lady S.]

Tyrion and Shae both get on my nerves here, honestly. They both seem confused or like they're conveniently forgetting what their deal is with each other. Shae's suggestion of posting more guards makes it seem like she has no understanding of the idea that *war* is coming to King's Landing. Tyrion slaps her around for not automatically understanding the evil reality that is Tywin Lannister? Plus, he slaps her when she says what she's honestly thinking yet he acts like he wants her to be genuine with him.

Yeah, it's interesting that Tyrion and Shae both have different, but equally unrealistic hopes in their relationship. I would think Shae at least would be less naive if her life has been that hard so far. I wonder if it was too late at this point to just put Shae on a ship and get her out of the city entirely, which was surely the safest way to protect her from war or Tywin.

 

I don't think Tyrion slapping her had much to do with Shae herself not understanding Tywin/Tyrion, but that invoking Tywin punishing him triggered some pretty bad feelings because he's pretty fucked up by the traumatic memories of the experience with Tysha. At least he regrets hitting almost immediately, which is more than can be said for a habitual domestic abuser like Robert or Cersei herself. This is also different than the times in early ADwD where he deliberately frightens and hurts women he's with. Interesting that Tywin produced such slap happy children, when as far as we know, he never laid a hand on them in anger. He abused them in every other way, and the two who have been through the most are so prone to lashing out in violent anger as they strive for power and control over their lives.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Lady S.

[benteen]

I thought at first that Tyrion would want a woman who could match him intellectually.  But it's pretty clear that he's not looking for brains, just pure devotion.

[nodorothyparker]

In Jon's chapter, the threat Chett is making is just vague enough that I can see why Jon couldn't really commit to the idea of ratting him out.  They're sitting around the cold grumbling about wanting to go back to the relative shelter and safety of the Wall.  What he says could just as easily be interpreted as thinking they'd maybe run back there and make up a story about getting separated and not knowing what else to do.  Even if Jon had reported it, I'm not sure it would have changed any of Mormont's plans either.

 

Much of the beyond the Wall story on the show at this point felt underdeveloped and didn't make a ton of sense.  Book Halfhand is much more interesting, as his decision to take Jon because of the power of the gods of the First Men and the Starks.  It makes you wonder what he knows that Jon obviously doesn't.

 

We get our first introduction to Symon Silver Tongue in Tyrion's chapter.  Interesting that Shae seems so unrealistic about so much else but is able to recognize that Tyrion may be a danger to him down the line because of what he knows.  Also interesting in light of our earlier conversation about Bronn that Tyrion here trusts Bronn with other things but knows not to trust him or his cohorts with Tommen for fear they'd sell him or use him themselves.

[nodorothyparker]

It does seem like Shae is forgetting her understanding of their entire arrangement here, talking about being Tyrion's lady and giving him sons.  I do love her reaction to the idea that she could go work in the Red Keep's kitchens though.  Like oh, you want me more conveniently available for sex and I get to scrub pots too?  She's not seeing the risk of the coming Stannis invasion, just that she thinks she's above such things since he set her up in a nice house.

 

Tyrion slapping her comes as she's goading him about Tywin.  Basically, you're a grown man and a powerful one, what is he going to do spank you like a child?  That of course sets off all the bad stuff in Tyrion's head that Tywin planted there when he did do something beyond horrible to another woman because of him.  Tywin is just so unrelentingly awful in the books and the master of the overkill and overreaction.  It doesn't make me like the tiresomely self-pitying Tyrion we get in DWD but between this and all the talk of how kinslaying is viewed, it does lay out the groundwork for getting him there.

 

If Varys's story is to be believed, that's why he hates all magic.  Yet as we'll see he's long been secretly loyal to a family that possesses enough of a degree of it to have had dragons.

Edited March 11, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[Avaleigh]

Catelyn VI

 

Edmure asks Catelyn to tell their father that he's going off to make him proud. Catelyn tells Edmure that their father has always been proud of him and Edmure says that he wants to give his father another reason apart from his birth. As Catelyn watches her brother and his men leave, she thinks about all of the fear and doubt she has.

 

Brienne is miserable at being left behind and asks Catelyn what they should do. Catelyn says that they'll have to do their duty and this makes her think about how she's always done her duty no matter what. She thinks about how she was the Lady of Riverrun after the death of her mother and how she always honored her duty to her father.

 

Catelyn goes to the sept to pray for Edmure and Robb and lights candles for them in front of the Warrior. When she's done praying she considers going to the godswood to pray to the old gods too since they're older than the Seven.

 

Rymund the Rhymer is singing a song about Lord Deremond at the Bloody Meadow and Catelyn wonders if it's the songs that make young boys want to play at war.

 

Maester Vyman brings Catelyn a letter from Storm's End from the new castellan Lord Meadows. She learns that Storm's End has opened its gates to Stannis Baratheon and that the castle garrison have all sworn their swords to his cause. Catelyn never knew Ser Cortnay Penrose but she grieves to learn of his death all the same and thinks that Robb should be told about it.

 

Catelyn notices that the letter doesn't contain any information about Edric Storm. She admits that she has no idea why Stannis seems to want the boy so much. Brienne wonders if Stannis fears Edric's claim but Catelyn suspects it's something else and asks about the boy's appearance. When Brienne tells her that Edric looks like he could be Renly's son, Catelyn figures that Stannis wants to show the boy off so that people will wonder why Joffrey doesn't look more like a Baratheon.

 

Catelyn thinks about how her own children look more like Tullys than Starks with the exception of Arya. She thinks about how Jon Snow resembles Ned and wonders if Jon's mother is grieving for Ned the way that she is. She thinks about how Ashara Dayne was whispered to be Jon's mother and knows that she'll never learn the truth since all of Ned's secrets died with him.

 

Still, she was struck again by how strangely men behaved when it came to their bastards. Ned had always been fiercely protective of Jon, and Ser Cortnay Penrose had given up his life for this Edric Storm, yet Roose Bolton's bastard had meant less to him than one of his dogs, to judge from the tone of the queer cold letter Edmure had gotten from him not three days past. He had crossed the Trident and was marching on Harrenhal as commanded, he wrote. "A strong castle, and well garrisoned, but His Grace shall have it, if I must kill every living soul within to make it so." He hoped His Grace would weigh that against the crimes of his bastard son, whom Ser Rodrik Cassel had put to death. "A fate he no doubt earned," Bolton had written. "Tainted blood is ever treacherous, and Ramsay's nature was sly, greedy, and cruel. I count myself well rid of him. The trueborn sons my young wife has promised me would never have been safe while he lived."

 

Ser Desmond tells Catelyn that the Lannisters are across the Red Fork but says the main strength of Tywin's host is still well to the south, so they aren't in any danger. Catelyn can hear the sounds of the battle and soon sees that the Lannister soldiers are being driven away by Edmure's men. Ser Desmond is happy about the victory but Catelyn knows that the Lannisters will come again and points out that Tywin has twice the number of men that Edmure has. Ser Desmond says that Tywin could have ten times as many men and it still won't make a difference. He's confident that the river will hold them back.

 

The Lannisters return again later that night and are again driven off. Brienne tells Catelyn that Tywin is looking for a weak point and says if he can't find one then he'll likely end up making one.

 

Catelyn has some wine sent to Ser Cleos Frey and plans on questioning him in his cell later. Cleos is drunk by the time Catelyn goes to see him and claims that he didn't know anything about Tyrion's plan to free Jaime. Cleos tells her about the peace terms that the Lannisters are offering and Catelyn asks about her daughters. Cleos admits that he's only seen Sansa. Catelyn thinks this means Arya is either being locked away or has been killed. 

 

Catelyn seems surprised that Tyrion appears to be the one in charge as opposed to the Queen Regent and thinks to herself that Tyrion is entirely too clever. She's still amazed that he managed to survive the high road in the Vale. She thinks about how he saved her from the clansmen when they attacked and wonders if she could trust Tyrion's word. She looks down at the scars on her hands and decides that all of the Lannisters are liars and that Tyrion is the chief offender.

 

Three days pass before Tywin tries again to force his men across. Lord Lefford drowns during the battle, a knight from Crakehall called Strongboar is taken captive, Addam Marbrand is forced to retreat, and Gregor Clegane is injured. Tywin is now marching southeast and nearly everyone in Riverrun is feeling celebratory.

 

Catelyn can't share in the happiness of the others and wonders why she feels so afraid when they're winning.

[Lady S.]

I thought at first that Tyrion would want a woman who could match him intellectually.  But it's pretty clear that he's not looking for brains, just pure devotion.

Which I think is understandable from someone with no mother and a sister like Cersei. Genna was probably good to him but she had her own kids to raise. Of course he's unequipped to have a healthy relationship with a woman when he's never experienced the devotion he deserved from one growing up. Why would it even occur to him to look for a true partner when Tywin and Cersei have drilled into him that no woman could ever want him? I don't think this can be compared to someone like Robert, who was an orphan but always experienced an abundance of love from both sexes, or even Theon, who uses women to boost his fragile masculinity without much concern at all for them.

 

It does seem like Shae is forgetting her understanding of their entire arrangement here, talking about being Tyrion's lady and giving him sons.  I do love her reaction to the idea that she could go work in the Red Keep's kitchens though.  Like oh, you want me more conveniently available for sex and I get to scrub pots too?  She's not seeing the risk of the coming Stannis invasion, just that she thinks she's above such things since he set her up in a nice house.

I guess to Shae the terms changed when he took her to King's Landing for a life of luxury she wasn't expecting. But she's getting bored in her gilded cage and thinks the terms could change again so she could enter court life and continue her climb up the social ladder, even though that fantasy wouldn't really work even if Tywin wasn't an insane hardass.

I don't think Shae was necessarily lying about her father btw, she could have been his all around slave. It's weird that she equates the cooking with the incest, but with her later callousness toward Lollys and Sansa, imo she's either been through some shit herself that hardened her or she was just a born pyschopath. In that light, her insistence that she knew she could give Tyrion sons makes me wonder if she's been pregnant before. I'm also very interested in her ability to recognize Varys. I think theories of Varys recruiting her when they first met in the inn make more sense than any convoluted theories about her being Tywin's all along.

[Avaleigh]

I don't know, that line made me think that Shae is pretty much the opposite of trustworthy. The incest was just an afterthought almost like she forgot that she told him. I almost get the impression that she told him that because she thinks it's what he expects to hear and that it would make him treat her more sympathetically. I thought her insensitivity towards Lollys and Sansa had to do with her having no patience for highborn girls who have it rough because in her mind she still sees them as getting the better end of the deal. Basically everyone is shockingly insensitive to Lollys with the exception of her mother. 

 

I can see Varys recruiting her but would she really be so naturally good at seeing through his disguises when they seem to fool everyone else. GRRM said that we would learn more about Shae, right? I wonder why when her story seems so done.

 

Regarding Catelyn here, her love for Ned is so apparent. He's never far from her thoughts. I could feel her jealousy over Jon even in that brief moment. She hates how much Jon resembles him when her own children look so much like her save Arya. I like that she points out that Joffrey not looking like Robert doesn't really prove anything because people are going to believe what's in their best interest to believe.

 

It also occurs to me that we never really see Catelyn happy in these books. Even before Bran's accident (when she was basically happy without realizing that she was happy) there was always apart of her that seemed sad and resentful like she's waiting for something bad to happen. Her first sentence is something negative. Here when everyone, save Brienne, is feeling happy with the victories she can't help but feel that sense of impending doom. I understand why she is this way, I'm not expecting her to celebrate with these people, it just never really occurred to me until now that she never really has a moment where she's just happy and relaxed. The closest moment is probably in the show in the pilot when we see the happy Stark family and the moment is quickly killed when she gives Jon a dose of the evil eye. It's sad to think that she didn't have a moment in her life after she was married that wasn't marred in some huge way from her perspective.

 

When people think about songs and singers in this story Sansa is a character that is easy to associate with these things but I think this chapter does a good job of showing what an impact the songs have on boys and men. 

 

The Lannisters attempting to cross just sounds disastrous. I'm imagining some of these guys cringing at the thought of getting so much as a toe wet. I wondered if any of them were thinking about that lord who drowned because he was wearing his armor. That was the first thing I thought of with Lord Lefford's drowning.

 

Bran's up next and shit is going down. 

[nodorothyparker]

Catelyn's musing about bastard sons and various men's relationships to them is interesting here, both for the reminder that Jon is still a big question mark despite being one of the only Stark kids to truly look like a Stark with all the attendant resentment that brings and for the mention of Roose's weird offputting letter to Edmure about Ramsay's supposed death.  I don't think we've been given any reason yet to doubt that Roose's loyalties lie where they're supposed to lie or that he would have any real way of knowing that Ramsay and Reek switched places, but something about it still rubs me as him covering all his bases.  Sometimes I think already knowing what happens next will make you see foreshadowing where it really is just a letter.  Or maybe it's not.

 

I also like Catelyn's acknowledgment that Edric looking like a Baratheon while Joffrey clearly doesn't will really only mean as much as anyone wants it to mean.  I'll admit as the mother of one very blonde child in a family of otherwise almost entirely dark-haired people that the earlier insistence on that, particularly from the show, as definitive proof drove me a little nuts.  

 

Catelyn's frustrating here because while she's savvy enough to understand this, she's still clinging to the idea that Tyrion was responsible for Bran's would-be assassin.  All the seeds for her eventual decision to release Jaime are here in her thought process as she's trying to weigh the good and bad of Tyrion and whether she can take his offer to trade seriously but everything starts with a faulty piece of information she won't let go of because "Lannisters are liars every one." Yet the fact that he did just stage a fairly duplicitous escape attempt seems not to figure in at all.

 

The Lannister crossing attempts sound like Tywin had a lot of expendable men he was willing to waste while both sides were trying to make a point.  Being a common soldier here must have just been a horrible thankless thing.  They're all so busy celebrating at Riverrun afterward that no one but Catelyn considers the long term implications of Tywin turning back southeast toward the Blackwater.

Edited March 12, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[Lady S.]

GRRM said that we would learn more about Shae, right? I wonder why when her story seems so done.

No, he said we'd learn more about why she was in Tywin's bed and mentioned that Varys also played a role in Tywin's death.

 

Regarding Catelyn here, her love for Ned is so apparent. He's never far from her thoughts. I could feel her jealousy over Jon even in that brief moment. She hates how much Jon resembles him when her own children look so much like her save Arya.

I was thinking that about Ned/Cat in the last Catelyn chapter too. Personally, I don't get the whole poor second choice Ned thing when it's clear she loved him after she got to know him and if there was a way to actually talk with the dead or bring a dead Stark back there wouldn't even be a choice between Ned and Brandon. Interesting that had a brief moment of objectivity toward Jon's mother and then starting being irrational again later about Tyrion.

 

Catelyn's frustrating here because while she's savvy enough to understand this, she's still clinging to the idea that Tyrion was responsible for Bran's would-be assassin.  All the seeds for her eventual decision to release Jaime are here in her thought process as she's trying to weigh the good and bad of Tyrion and whether she can take his offer to trade seriously but everything starts with a faulty piece of information she won't let go of because "Lannisters are liars every one." Yet the fact that he did just stage a fairly duplicitous escape attempt seems not to figure in at all.

Yeah, that was frustratingly irrational, wondering if he really was trustworthy and being swayed by the scars on her hands. As if the attack being real was ever what was in doubt. She needed someone to blame for that and with no clue of who really was responsible, Tyrion was it. Admitting to herself that Littlefinger duped her and her trust in him helped lead to all this mess is too much for her to bear. As you say, there are much better reasons for distrusting Tyrion's word. He ignored the conventions of envoys and possibly broke guest right, we as readers know that he's lying about having both girls, and Cleos admitting he never saw Arya should give Catelyn reason to suspect as much. And Tyrion and Catelyn are both ignoring the fact that he can't really make binding promises because Tywin could come claim his post at any moment. Still, it's noteworthy that in this chapter she ultimately decides Robb was probably right about Jaime and the girls.

[Avaleigh]

Bran VI

Bran is dreaming from Summer's perspective. He hears a clinking noise and the sound of steel scraping over stone. Summer starts howling and Shaggydog senses the danger too. There's a muffled shout that's quickly cut off and a stretch of silence until the castle dogs begin barking. Summer desperately tries to climb a tree to escape the godswood but ends up falling. Bran wakes up immediately after this and notices that he has a sore shoulder. He realizes that Jojen was telling the truth and thinks of himself as a beastling.

Bran calls for help then remembers that he doesn't have any guards because Rodrik took every man of fighting age with him to Torrhen's Square since it's under attack from a warchief by the name of Dagmer Cleftjaw. Only a token garrison has been left to guard Winterfell. Bran wonders if Dagmer won and remembers Old Nan telling them a story about how Dagmer is such a fierce badass that he once had his head split in two during a battle and just pushed the two halves back together again until his face healed.

Bran shouts for Hodor and even yells for Osha and the Reeds. The door to his room crashes open and Bran sees a man that he doesn't recognize. The mystery man is soon joined by Theon and Theon tells Bran that they aren't there to hurt him. Bran is relieved that it's Theon and asks him if Robb sent him. Theon tells Bran that Robb is far away and won't be able to help him now. Bran is confused and wonders why Robb would need to help him. He asks Theon not to scare him and Theon tells Bran that he's a prince now just like he is. He tells Bran that he's taken Winterfell and tells the man Werlag to leave him alone with Bran.

Theon sits down on Bran's bed and explains that he's taken the castle. Bran doesn't understand and Theon basically says that the tables have turned and says that Bran and Rickon are now wards of his. He says that Bran is going to explain to the people of Winterfell that he's yielded the castle over to Theon.

Bran refuses and tells Theon that they'll fight him and throw him out. Theon tells Bran that this isn't a game and says that if he wants to keep his people safe that he'll do as he's told. He tells Bran to think carefully about what he wants to say before he's brought down to the Great Hall.

Bran feels anxious as he waits and is surprised when Maester Luwin comes in to help get him ready. Luwin looks a little roughed up and has blood streaming down his face from a wound that he's taken over his left eye.

Luwin gives Bran more details about the takeover and tells him that there's no shame in yielding the castle to Theon. He says that Ned did what he could to make Theon a more gentle person but his efforts were too little and too late. Luwin takes responsibility for not leaving enough men to guard Winterfell and says that the decision was his and Ser Rodrik's. He admits that he never saw the danger. Bran thinks about how Jojen knew that this would happen.

One of the Ironborn carries Bran down to the Great Hall and they pick up Rickon along the way. Rickon is cranky from being woken up and says that he wants his mother and Shaggydog. Luwin takes Rickon by the hand and leads him down to the hall.

The Reeds and the Freys have also been roused from their beds and Little Walder tells Bran that Robb has lost his kingdom. Little Walder says that Bran's only a hostage and Jojen points out that they're all hostages now.

Theon has made himself comfortable on the high seat of the Starks. Rickon wonders why Theon's sitting in Robb's chair and Bran tells his brother to be quiet. The people of the castle are standing around and everyone looks upset. Poxy Tym and Beth Cassel are both crying.

Luwin introduces the two Walders and explains that the Reeds came to renew their oaths of fealty to Winterfell. Theon jokes about the Reeds bad timing and asks for Bran to be brought forward.

Reek is the last person brought into the Great Hall and he tells Theon that he was in service to the bastard of the Dreadfort until the Stark's put an arrow in the bastard's back.

Theon speaks to the crowd and Mikken takes the opportunity to tell Theon what a sack of shit he is. One of Theon's men hits Mikken in the gut with the butt of his spear and Bran orders Mikken to be silent. Bran tells the people of the castle that he's yielded Winterfell to Theon and says they should now do as Theon commands.

Mikken yells that he only serves the Starks not "treasonous squid", so he gets hit with the butt of a spear again. Bran silently wishes that Mikken would stop talking but Mikken keeps going and says that there's no way that Theon's going to be able to hold the north with his sorry crew. Mikken doesn't get to finish his sentence before a spear ends up going through the back of his neck. Meera wraps her arms around Rickon after this happens and Bran thinks to himself that Mikken drowned in his own blood.

Theon asks if anybody else has anything to say so Hodor says his name four times and Theon responds by having two of his men beat Hodor with their spears. While this is going on Theon tells the rest of the people that he'll be as good of a lord to them as Ned Stark ever was.

Theon raised his voice to be heard above the smack of wood on flesh. “Betray me, though, and you’ll wish you hadn’t. And don’t think the men you see here are the whole of my power. Torrhen’s Square and Deepwood Motte will soon be ours as well, and my uncle is sailing up the Saltspear to seize Moat Cailin. If Robb Stark can stave off the Lannisters, he may reign as King of the Trident hereafter, but House Greyjoy holds the north now.”

Reek tells Theon that the Stark lords will fight him so he'll need every man that he can get. He pledges himself to House Greyjoy and King Balon and Theon tells Reek that he's cleverer than he smells. Bran thinks about how the green dream is coming true.

Osha reminds Theon that he was there the day she was taken as a captive and tells him that she wants a spear put in her hand again. Stygg jokes that he has a spear for Osha so she knees him in the crotch and takes his spear out of his hand. Theon tells her she can keep the spear and asks her to bend the knee to him and swear. Bran is hurt that Osha goes over to Theon since he thought of her as a friend.

Nobody else pledges service to Theon so they're all told to do their work and behave as they normally would. Hodor is given the task of bringing Bran back to bed. His face is all messed up from the beating and one of his eyes is swollen shut. He's crying and saying his name as he carries Bran back to his room.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Avaleigh

[Avaleigh]

I liked the moment where Summer thinks of Ghost. 

 

Poor Beth Cassel. The beginning of life going to hell for her starts in this chapter. 

 

I wonder what Luwin said to Theon before he got that cut. 

 

I like how four year old Rickon knows that Theon's ass doesn't belong in that chair. 

 

I know Luwin didn't think there was any danger but surely with a shortage of men this was the time to use the direwolves to guard the remaining Starks. 

 

Theon knows Hodor can't help it and he still has his men beat this guy? He really is the worst. 

 

I'm surprised that they didn't leave "Reek" in his cell given the way that he smells.

[benteen]

Back to Catelyn for a moment, you’re right, Avaleigh, that we never really see her happy.  Someone wrote a funny post a few years back on another message board talking about how prior to her death, Catelyn was literally thinking about how everything sucked (when she wasn’t complaining about everything else).  The wedding, the marriage, the weather, the band, the food, etc.  Granted, with how the Red Wedding turned out, she was dead on right about that.  But it made me laugh realizing that it was true.

 

You’re right, she’s someone that doesn’t really seem to enjoy all the good she has had in her life (before Bran’s death changes everything).  She kind of is that “only happy when she’s miserable” type of personality and she’s not even happy then.

 

I’ll still give Ramsay credit for how quickly he can adjust on the fly and play the long game.  He’s awful but he can do those things really well.

 

Mikken, love that you are so loyal to the Starks but shut the hell up.  Getting yourself killed ten seconds into an occupation doesn’t help anyone.  Although that was at least a quicker death than he likely would have had if he was captured by Ramsay.

 

Poor Beth Cassel.

 

Theon’s plan was brilliant but he had too much of a hard-on over the idea of playing Prince in Winterfell.  He should have put Winterfell to the torch and left with the Starks, the Reeds and the Frey boys.

Edited March 13, 2016 by benteen

[Avaleigh]

Arya IX

 

Arya is talking with Hot Pie in the kitchens. Hot Pie thinks that there are ghosts in Harrenhal but Arya doesn't believe it. She asks him if she can have a tart but he tells her they're for Ser Amory. Arya suggests they spit on the tarts instead, but Hot Pie is worried that he'll get in trouble. She talks about trying to escape but Hot Pie says he isn't interested in leaving. He says that it's better at Harrenhal than it was when they were reduced to eating worms out in the woods.

 

Arya hears two blasts from a warhorn and soon hears the gates of the castle being opened. The gates haven't been opened since Tywin's departure, so Arya leaves to go see what's happening. She steals one of Ser Amory's tarts before she leaves and is feeling exceptionally daring. She thinks of herself as the ghost of Harrenhal.

 

The Bloody Mummers have returned and they've brought at least a hundred northern prisoners with them. Arya recognizes the sigils of Houses Cerwyn and Karstark and hears Hoat telling Ser Amory that Roose Bolton's men tried to cross the river. Hoat claims that the Bloody Mummers ended up cutting Roose's van to pieces and says that Roose fled shortly after this with the rest of his host. Ser Amory gives orders for the northmen to be held in the Widow's Tower.

 

Weese's replacement is a man they call Pinkeye. Arya doesn't fear Pinkeye the way that she feared Weese and seems to appreciate that there are a lot fewer guards to deal with now that Tywin is gone.

 

Arya passes the armory and sees Gendry hard at work. She spends some time checking out his muscles and thinks about how strong he looks. Gendry tells her that she should be in bed and asks her what the noise was all about. Arya tells him about Vargo Hoat bringing in the northern prisoners and asks him if he'll help her free them. Gendry laughs and asks how they're supposed to that and she suggests killing a few guards and breaking the cell open with a hammer. Gendry tells Arya that she didn't learn anything back in the village and says that Vargo Hoat is going to cut off her hands and feet if she tries to do what she's suggesting.

 

Arya thinks that Gendry is afraid and he tells her to leave him alone. She tells him that there are a hundred northmen and that this is as many men as Ser Amory has. Gendry says that Arya won't be able to save the northmen any more than she was able to save Lommy.

 

Gendry asks where they would go if they escaped and Arya answers that they'd go to Winterfell and she'd tell her mother all about how he helped her. Gendry asks Arya why he should risk his hands and feet to sweat at Winterfell in place of Harrenhal. She reminds him that the queen is looking for him and Gendry tries to deny that the gold cloaks were ever after him. He says that he has the chance to be a master armorer one day if he doesn't lose his hands and feet or get himself killed. Arya tells him to make a helm with mule ears on it instead of bull horns.

 

Arya leaves because she thinks she's close to hitting Gendry. She tells herself that she's better off without him and blames him for her getting caught in the first place. She thinks about Jaqen and how she's been avoiding him since Weese's death. She doesn't want to go back to being a mouse once she uses up her last death.

 

She goes into the godswood to practice the drills that Syrio taught her and uses a stick that she's made for herself. She hits out at branches and imagines them to be people like Joffrey, Cersei, Ser Meryn, and Ser Ilyn.

 

The heart tree in the godswood catches her attention and it makes her think of the heart tree in Winterfell. She stares at the face of the weirwood and wonders if gods can be hurt. She goes to her knees and prays that she'll be able to free the prisoners from the dungeon so that they can kill Ser Amory and get her back to Winterfell. She thinks about how often her father prayed and yells at the tree that it should have saved him. She tells the tree that she doesn't think it could help her even if it wanted to.

 

Jaqen tells Arya that the gods are not mocked and asks her to give him the third and final name so that he can be done. Arya wants to know how Jaqen was able to kill Weese and asks him if his name is really Jaqen H'ghar. Jaqen tells her that some men have many names and tells her that he knows her real name is Arya Stark. Arya wonders if Gendry told and then thinks that the old gods might have sent Jaqen to help her.

 

Arya tells Jaqen that she wants him to help her save the northmen. Jaqen tells her that she only gets one name and Arya asks if it can truly be any name. She asks Jaqen to swear that he'll keep his word, so he swears by the old gods and the new. He asks her if she wants to name Joffrey but Arya tells him that she wants to name Jaqen H'ghar.

 

Jaqen asks Arya if she's joking and tells her that she'll lose her only friend. Arya tells him that he isn't her friend and says that a real friend would help her. Jaqen understands that Arya is willing to name another name if he helps her, so they set off and he tells her that he isn't going to be able to sleep until she gives another name. He calls her an evil child and Arya thinks to herself that she's a direwolf and a ghost of Harrenhal. Jaqen tries one more time to get Arya to say another name and abandon the plan to free the prisoners, but she refuses.

 

Jaqen tells Arya to go to the kitchens and say that she needs enough broth for a hundred men. Arya gives the order to the cook and Rorge and Biter arrive to help carry it. Arya isn't happy that Rorge and Biter are a part of the plan but she helps them carry the broth anyway. They use the broth to scald the guards and once the guards are wounded, Jaqen, Biter, and Rorge quickly kill them all.

 

Rorge opens the cell and Glover wonders if they're members of the Brave Companions. Jaqen introduces himself, Biter, and Rorge. Arya introduces herself as Weasel, so Glover and the other northmen don't pay any attention to her.

 

Jaqen asks Arya to take back his name, so she does and asks if she still has a third name left. Jaqen tells her that she's being greedy and insists the debt has been paid. Arya agrees but feels sad that she's back to being a mouse again.

 

“A god has his due. And now a man must die.” A strange smile touched the lips of Jaqen H’ghar.

 

Arya is confused and tells Jaqen that he doesn't need to die because she unsaid his name. Jaqen says that his time is done and changes his face as Arya watches. She's too astonished to be scared and asks him who he is and how he's capable of doing that. She asks if it's difficult and the man tells her that it's no more difficult than choosing a new name once you learn how. Arya says she wants him to show her the way and he tells her that she'll have to come with him across the narrow sea if she wants to learn. Arya says that she has to go back to Winterfell so Jaqen gives her a coin and says that if she ever wants to find him again she just needs to give the coin to a man from Braavos and say the words 'valar morghulis'.

 

She asks Jaqen not to go and the man tells her that Jaqen is as dead as Arry is. He tells her that he has promises to keep and says valar morghulis again. He addresses Arya by her full name and leaves her alone in the darkness.

 

At dawn, Pinkeye tells Arya and the others that a lord from the north will be taking over the castle. The story has spread around the castle about the hot weasel soup and a man called Shagwell seems especially amused by the tale. Arya hears a rumor that Shagwell once killed someone for not laughing at one of his jokes. She thinks that if Shagwell doesn't shut his mouth about the weasel soup that she's going to add him to her list.

 

Roose Bolton rides in and all of Harrenhal bows down to him. Rorge and Biter get some recognition for their roles in the soup plot, and Shagwell drags Arya into the yard and says that she's the weasel who's responsible for making the soup.

 

Roose looks down at Arya and asks her how old she is. She tells him that she's ten and he reminds her to address him as a lord. Roose asks her what her name is and she tells him her name is Nymeria but that she goes by Nan. Roose asks Arya if she's afraid of leeches and when she tells him that she isn't, he tells her that she's going to be his new cupbearer.

 

Roose has his men replace the Lannister and Lorch banners with those of Houses Stark and Bolton. The Brave Companions force Ser Amory to go around naked before they kick him down into the bear pit. Amory is sobbing and tries to cling to the legs of his captors before he's forced into the pit. Arya thinks that the bear is all in black like Yoren.

Edited March 14, 2016 by Avaleigh

[Lady S.]

Theon knows Hodor can't help it and he still has his men beat this guy? He really is the worst.

As he's promising to be as good a lord as Ned! And yet Theon sees no contradiction in that and actually wonders why those people hate him so much.

 

I was also pretty annoyed by what he said about Lady Hornwood.

 

Theon’s plan was brilliant but he had too much of a hard-on over the idea of playing Prince in Winterfell.  He should have put Winterfell to the torch and left with the Starks, the Reeds and the Frey boys.

I think Theon's victory was more to do with Rodrik and Luwin's lack of brilliance to be honest. It was those four men who climbed the walls that allowed Theon and the rest through. If they'd been stopped Theon might well have been out of luck. With a plan dependent on only four guys, even two or three more guards left behind could have made all the difference. Theon knew how Rodrik would respond to the attack on Torrhen's Square, but he couldn't have counted on the exact number of men Rodrik took when the margin between success and failure was that small. Or even without enough guards, as Avaleigh said, if the direwolves weren't locked in the godswood they could have made a big difference. Summer and Grey Wind took out multiple enemies pretty fast when Bran was attacked in the wolfswood. Another thing Theon couldn't have counted on because I don't think the wolves were confined when Robb and Theon left Winterfell, were they? At least Summer definitely wasn't.

[Avaleigh]

This is the happiest we've seen Arya in quite awhile. When she's eating that tart she seems like she's on top of the world. 

 

I thought the moment where she prays in front of the weirwood and has her exact prayer answered almost instantly was pretty cool. I wonder what Bloodraven thinks of her. 

 

Jaqen almost seemed like he wanted to kill Joffrey. I liked that Arya checked to make sure that she didn't still have another name. In that case I guess she would have gone with Joffrey over Tywin. 

 

Hot Pie and Gendry are both reasonably content where they are. They both raise good points about their situation that Arya can't counter. Sure Winterfell will be way better for her but not necessarily for Gendry and Hot Pie. Although I do Gendry could have done well under Ned if Ned had been allowed to return to Winterfell. 

 

Arya should be finding out about Theon soon, right? I can't recall what her thoughts are on him prior to his betrayal. 

 

I wonder what Roose would have done if he'd been told Arya's identity? Glover? Is there a snowball's chance in hell that he'd send her back to Riverrun? Is there any reasonable excuse that he'd be able to give to Robb for not sending her to Riverrun? 

 

Interesting that Arya instinctively knows not to trust any of the northerners with her identity when she was so ready to tell Cerwyn (I think?) who she was prior to his death even though it was unrealistic that he'd be able to help her. Now that the northmen are in control of Harrenhal and she's been given a promotion of sorts, she still wants to keep her identity a secret. 

 

The House of the Undying is up next. Finally, a Dany chapter that I'm looking forward to. 

[nodorothyparker]

In Bran's chapter I'm really struck by how Bran and various castle inhabitants are reacting to Theon, like he's committing a huge act of betrayal by invading while Theon's chapters have all been full of complaints about how he he was never treated like one of them.  Of course, we know that Theon often has a very skewed view of how things really are, but I can't help but wonder how much the average person at Winterfell actually understood that Theon was not a longterm guest by choice and basically lived his entire adolescence with a proverbial ax hanging over his head.  I know Bran is a child but you can't help but feel if he's acting lord of the castle he still should have known.

 

None of this changes the fact that Theon is still a colossal jerk to people he's known for years.  As awful as Ramsay really is, a small part of me can't help but appreciate how quick he is to make the most of the situation to set up everything that is to come.

[nodorothyparker]

The first time I read Arya's chapter I didn't catch that Arya's wanting to free the northern prisoners seemed to be coinciding with an apparent plot already in the works orchestrated by Vargo Hoat, who is switching sides, to let them out before Roose would get there. Arya doesn't seem to be fully getting it either and so doesn't quite realize that her third wish from the murder genie shouldn't have really counted because it was going to happen either way. Jaqen did almost seem eager for her to name Joffrey, so again it's one of those things I find myself wishing he would have taken the time to spell out the specifics of the rules before she started naming people.

It is interesting after going to all that trouble, she's still there at Harrenhal and still in disguise. The chapter doesn't really give us much to go on there as to why exactly when she was ready to flee to Winterfell just the day before. Roose is coming off as his usual scary self in his brief introduction here, but I don't know if that's it or what.

I like the conversations Arya has with Hot Pie and then Gendry because they're laying some hard truths on her about the very real differences in their respective classes and places in the world even if they somehow managed to get away. As long as they can keep their heads down and avoid being murdered, one place is as good as another for them and unnecessary risk just isn't worth it. Even after all the abuse and drudgery she's gone through, she doesn't see that.

Edited March 15, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[Lady S.]

Arya should be finding out about Theon soon, right? I can't recall what her thoughts are on him prior to his betrayal.

I don't think Arya's thought about Theon at all by this point. His name only came up in her first AGoT chapter when she and Jon were watching the guys down in the yard, but Joffrey was the only one who recieved comment. She only has the one last chapter after this and it's towards the very end of the book.

 

I don't know what Roose would have done if he knew who Arya was but I'm sure he would have tried to use her for his own gain instead of helping Robb. Maybe he could have sent her up to the Twins instead, to be with her betrothed's family, if there was a way to do so in secret without Glover and the other loyalists knowing what was up.

 

In Bran's chapter I'm really struck by how Bran and various castle inhabitants are reacting to Theon, like he's committing a huge act of betrayal by invading while Theon's chapters have all been full of complaints about how he he was never treated like one of them.  Of course, we know that Theon often has a very skewed view of how things really are, but I can't help but wonder how much the average person at Winterfell actually understood that Theon was not a longterm guest by choice and basically lived his entire adolescence with a proverbial ax hanging over his head.  I know Bran is a child but you can't help but feel if he's acting lord of the castle he still should have known.

I'm sure the adults understood that Theon wasn't truly a guest. The Greyjoy rebellion and why Ned came back with a Greyjoy child are not news items his own household would be unaware of. However much they got used to and got along with Theon, I doubt they thought of him the same as a Northern nobleman or as if Ned had taken a ward from one of his allies in the Vale or the riverlands. I know Rodrik doesn't deny Theon was a hostage when they meet up again, but he stills calls him a traitor. Which really just goes to show more contradictions and delusions in Theon's plan, he knows he's not a Stark and thinks about that fact often but he somehow expects to be accepted by the northerners like one, and he thinks he's proving himself a Greyjoy by trying desperately to rule Winterfell.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Lady S.

[Avaleigh]

Daenerys IV

 

Dany has arrived outside of the House of the Undying. She understands now why Xaro calls it the Palace of Dust because it's little more than an ancient ruin. Jhogo thinks it seems like an evil place and comments that it seems to "drink the morning sun". Jorah asks Dany what power these people can possibly have if they live in a ruin like that. Xaro tells Dany to listen to her friends and says that the warlocks won't give her anything because they don't have anything to give.

 

Aggo and Jhogo want to go with Dany inside but Dany tells them there are some places where even a khal must walk alone. Jorah asks Dany if he may accompany her but Pyat Pree says that Dany has to go in alone or she's not allowed to go at all. He says if she turn away now then the doors will be forever closed to her. Xaro tries to tempt Dany with a trip on his pleasure barge and Jorah warns Dany to remember Mirri Maz Duur.

 

Dany keeps Drogon with her, takes Pyat's arm, and listens as he tells her to follow everything he has to say if she values her soul. He says that the House of the Undying is not made for mortal men and warns her that she won't be able to leave the way she came. Dany promises to do as Pyat says. He instructs her to always take the door to her right and to always climb the stairs. He says that she is to enter no room other than the audience chamber. He tells her to be patient when she reaches the chamber of the Undying.

 

There's a dwarf waiting for Dany with a glass of shade of the evening. Pyat urges her to drink and Dany asks if it'll make her lips turn blue.

 

Dany raised the glass to her lips. The first sip tasted like ink and spoiled meat, foul, but when she swallowed it seemed to come to life within her. She could feel tendrils spreading through her chest, like fingers of fire coiling around her heart, and on her tongue was a taste like honey and anise and cream, like mother’s milk and Drogo’s seed, like red meat and hot blood and molten gold. It was all the tastes she had ever known, and none of them... and then the glass was empty.

 

She's allowed to enter after she finishes the shade of the evening. She chooses every door to her right and thinks that she's in the presence of sorcery as she goes through room after room. She hears disturbing noises behind the various doors and some of them even shake as though there's something on the other side trying to break through. Drogon seems unsettled by the sounds and Dany feels the need to increase her pace.

 

Not all of the doors are closed and Dany finds herself tempted to sometimes look. In one room there's a beautiful woman being ravaged on a floor by four little men. One room contains a bunch of corpses and a dead man with a wolf's head sitting on a throne. In another room she sees the house with the red door from her childhood. She sees Old Ser Willem calling to her and telling her that she's back home and safe. She wants to go to him but remembers that he's dead, so she backs away and continues going down the hall.

 

Inside another door Dany sees an old man on a towering throne with long silver grey hair. He says to another man "Let him be the king of ashes." Dany continues to move on. The next vision reminds her of Viserys but the eyes are indigo rather than lilac. He tells a woman who's nursing a baby that they'll call him Aegon and asks what better name there could be for a king. The woman asks the man if she'll make a song for the baby and the man says that the baby already has a song. He's the prince who was promised and his song is the song of ice and fire. When the man looks up, Dany feels like his eyes are meeting hers almost as though he can see her. The man mentions that there must be one more and says "The dragon has three heads."

 

Dany gets to a point where there aren't any more doors on the right and reasons that she'll have to take the last door on the left. Dany walks through another series of doors and feels as though she's been walking for hours. She finally runs into Pyat Pree who asks her if the Undying have already finished with her. She tells him that she hasn't seen them yet and he offers to lead her to them. Dany still has a door to the right that she hasn't gone through but Pyat tries to steer her away from it. Pyat claims that she'll be lost if she goes through the door but Dany continues to go towards it. Pyat screeches at her and tells her to come over to him. Dany sees his face crumble and change to something 'pale and wormlike'.

 

Dany climbs up a long stairwell and suddenly remembers that she couldn't see any towers when she looked at the House of the Undying from the outside. Dany prays to the Warrior for courage and continues to walk forward.

 

She walks into a great hall where all the wizards are. Everyone is well dressed, there are men and women, and they're playing the most beautiful music Dany has ever heard. A 'kingly' looking man comes forward and welcomes Dany. He tells her to share their food and says that they are the Undying of Qarth. A woman tells Dany that they've been waiting for her for a long time. The kingly man tells Dany that they knew a thousand years ago that she'd be coming and says they sent the comet to show her the way. They tell her that she's passed every trial, so now she may sit with them and all of her questions will be answered. She steps forward towards them, but Drogon jumps off of her shoulder and goes over to the door on the right. Dany starts to feel doubt and decides to go through door instead. The wizards try to get her to stay but she ends up running from them.

 

She finally gets to a room that contains a floating human heart that is alive but blue and rotting. The figures that are around the heart look like withered blue shadows. There's no sound in the room but the beating heart. Dany tells the Undying that she's come for truth and asks if the images she saw on her way over were lies or true visions and what they might mean. The Undying tell her to drink from the cup of ice and from the cup of fire. They tell her that the dragon has three heads.

 

The whispers became a swirling song.... three fires must you light... one for life and one for death and one to love... Her own heart was beating in unison to the one that floated before her, blue and corrupt... three mounts must you ride... one to bed and one to dread and one to love... The voices were growing louder, she realized, and it seemed her heart was slowing, and even her breath.... three treasons will you know... once for blood and once for gold and once for love...

 

Dany doesn't understand and wonders why it's so hard to talk. She asks them to help her and show her.

 

Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman’s name.... mother of dragons, daughter of death... Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire.... mother of dragons, slayer of lies... Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a c**** in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.... mother of dragons, bride of fire...

 

The visions start coming faster at this point. She sees the house with the red door and hears Mirri Maz Duur's screams. She sees the man who was dragged to death behind her silver, the naked crones, a white lion, and ten thousand slaves calling her Mother. The visions suddenly stop and Dany gasps as she realizes that the Undying are all around her. She surrounded and they begin touching her and pulling at her clothes. She feels a hand on her breast, teeth at her throat, and a mouth on her eye.

 

Suddenly, there are screams from the Undying and Dany sees that Drogon is ripping and tearing at the rotting heart. The Undying begin to shriek as Drogon sets the heart on fire. The entire room is on fire by the time Dany heads for the door and calls to Drogon. Dany runs until she finds another door.

 

Once she's outside of the Palace of Dust, Pyat Pree is gibbering and cursing and tries to attack her with a knife. Drogon flies at Pyat's face, Jhogo cracks his whip, and Rakharo slams the warlock into the ground. Jorah kneels at Dany's side and puts his arm around her.

[Avaleigh]

I enjoyed this chapter but I don't have that many comments. 

 

Xaro offering Dany the little girl for sexual pleasure creeped me out. 

 

The Undying being around Dany was freaky. The description of the mouth being on her eye really got me. 

 

Pyat Pree isn't a very good warlock. I know that there are theories that Pyat is Euron but I don't recall why Pyat isn't killed here. Is there any explanation for Dany and her guys letting him live? 

 

I laughed that Dany's only question about shade of the evening had to do with whether or not her lips will turn blue. She isn't worried about being addicted like the warlocks. She isn't worried that it could be painful or might incapacitate her. Just a quick concern over physical appearance. When she drank it, I was reminded of Bran eating the weirwood paste. 

 

The comments about the building drinking the morning sun made me think of the oily black stone. 

[benteen]

Between this and ADWD, Xaro was an absolute creep with how he peddled young girls to Dany.  Yuck!

 

 It's interesting how different this scene was adapted on the show.

Edited March 15, 2016 by benteen

[Lady S.]

The Undying being around Dany was freaky. The description of the mouth being on her eye really got me.

Yes, the mouth on her eyeball part was the creepiest for me too. What the hell, Undying? Who wants to lick an eyeball? 

 

Pyat Pree isn't a very good warlock. I know that there are theories that Pyat is Euron but I don't recall why Pyat isn't killed here. Is there any explanation for Dany and her guys letting him live?

I don't think there is a good explanation.

 

When she drank it, I was reminded of Bran eating the weirwood paste.

Yes, also Arya drinking the potion from the FM before they made her "the Ugly Girl" for her first real assignment had, I believe, similar sensations of gross then pleasant tastes.

 

I think she had prayed to the Seven in the first book too, but it was interesting that Dany drew on the Warrior for strength when religion is probably one of the ways she's most disconnected from Westeros. From what we see later in other PoVs, I have the impression that the Seven is no longer really an Essosi religions and is only practiced by Westerosi ex-pats.

 

I don't really have much on the freaky visions and prophecies either, except that it occurs to me the show couldn't have done the Rhaegar/Elia/Aegon vision in s2 even if they'd wanted to. At that point it hadn't even been mentioned that Rhaegar was married so there would have been a lot of confusion about who Elia was, unless they inserted something to the effect of "Elia, my wife, his is the song of ice and fire....".

[benteen]

"He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire".

 

I have to admit, I love that last part of that line.  It's properly epic.

Edited March 16, 2016 by benteen