The Official Re-Read Project: Book 2: A Clash Of Kings

Lady S. · March 29, 2016

The threat to Tommen really comes back to bite Tyrion later, but does anyone have a better way to ensure Alayaya wouldn't be further beaten or raped? Tyrion plays up the monster card because he thinks it's the only tactic Cersei will respond to. This wasn't just about his anger with Cersei, it was also about the fact that he put Alayaya in danger and he owed it to her to protect her somehow and not just rely on Cersei's terms when she wouldn't care how the Kettleblacks treated her prisoner. I think this threat is similar to Jon threatening to burn Gilly's baby with Mance's or Jaime's threat to catapult Edmure's baby. The big difference is that Tyrion's audience is his own sister, who is unstable and has the power to retaliate against him, but all three men were bluffing about violence to an innocent to prevent other violence. His threat about turning Cersei's joy to ashes was entirely personal, but bringing Tommen into it was about protecting Alayaya. It was a disgusting way to protect her, but I think it's only right that Tyrion felt some responsibility for putting her in this position.

Also, if I'm looking at it objectively, Cersei is right when she says that Tyrion has been working against her and lying to her since the day of his arrival. She doesn't even know half of the lies but from her perspective she seems to have every reason to be wary of him.

Cersei also threatened to throw him in a dungeon cell when he first arrived so it's not like she ever needed a reason to be hostile to him, or as if she would ever have actually tried to work with him instead of just obstructing him. We know Cersei is only interested in working with yes men.

Regarding Dorne...I can see how this looked like a good idea on paper but in retrospect it probably would have been better if Myrcella had been betrothed to someone else.

IA, but at least book Tyrion offered Doran the small council seat so that a Martell in KL would give them leverage of their own. Perhaps Myrcella would have been safer if Doran had been fit enough to travel or if Oberyn had been smart enough not to get himself killed. (And the other idea, of giving her to Lysa was terrible. I find it hard to believe Tyrion would have gone through with that after his own experience at the Eyrie.)

Regarding the Lannisters' indifference to conditions to the city, does Tyrion really think they've done no harm to cause the Antler Men to betray them? Or did he just say that because he was speaking to Cersei?

benteen · March 29, 2016

I'd like to think Tyrion's threat against Tommen was just an empty threat but if he seems to wonder about that later on. That was the one thing I understood Tywin being legitimately angry with Tyrion at although I wonder just how much Tywin actually loves his grandchildren. He doesn't really seem capable of love, save for Jaime and that might be because Jaime is his idealized self-image.

Interesting that Cersei states here (and I believe later on) that it wasn't her preference to try to kill Bran. We do know she's had children killed before on her orders. Cersei hardly seems like someone who considers the political consequences of her actions (not having a trueborn heir with Robert, her pissing contests with Tyrion, not keeping a tighter rein on Joffrey, etc.) so is it a rare moment of compassion from her?

nodorothyparker · March 29, 2016

Reading Tyrion's threat to turn Cersei's joy to ashes gives me goosebumps. It's just good writing and it was used so effectively on the show.

This chapter more than most really demonstrates how the Lannisters are their own worst enemy. The Baratheons do a truly admirable job of taking themselves out and the Freys certainly don't seem to care about each other if they get the chance to move themselves up in the pecking order, but the pettiness and double crossing and undermining and just plain fantasizing about killing each other here shows that this particular family will do far more damage to themselves than nearly anything their enemies might try to do to them. With maybe the exception of Joffrey's eventual murder, all of their wounds will in varying degrees be self inflicted.

The hatred Tyrion and Cersei have for each other blinds them to how useful they could be to each other as allies. It blinds them to strengths and shortcomings of others to the point that if Cersei mistrusts Varys then Tyrion immediately goes into the enemy of my enemy is my friend thinking without taking the time to consider if Varys is playing a game of his own. It's frustrating watching them expend this much energy on trying to outmaneuver each other when they're supposed to be preparing for a coming invasion. If they're not prepared, a whole lot of innocents are going to be raped or burned or murdered but we already know they don't care about that as they're sitting at a table wasting multiple courses of food in a starving city and wringing their hands over why oh why don't the Antler Men love them?

To be honest, I didn't really believe Cersei when she says didn't want Bran killed until we get later confirmation from Jaime. I still don't know how she really thought she could frighten him into permanent silence but we all know that reality isn't her strong suit. I do get a small kick of Varys waiting to see if Tyrion is sad or glad at the news that Theon has killed Bran and Rickon before having any official opinion on it.

Edited March 29, 2016 by nodorothyparker

benteen · March 29, 2016

This chapter more than most really demonstrates how the Lannisters are their own worst enemy. The Baratheons do a truly admirable job of taking themselves out and the Freys certainly don't seem to care about each other if they get the chance to move themselves up in the pecking order, but the pettiness and double crossing and undermining and just plain fantasizing about killing each other here shows that this particular family will do far more damage to themselves than nearly anything their enemies might try to do to them. With maybe the exception of Joffrey's eventual murder, all of their wounds will in varying degrees be self inflicted.

Good God, yes. They all have strengths, even Cersei, and if they could have used them together they would have been unstoppable. This all goes back to Tywin though and the way he raised his kids and his hatred of Tyrion.

The Tyrells are an excellent example of a family that works together and covers each others back. Olenna might not have much fondness for her son but she covers for him and so does the rest of his family.

vibeology · March 29, 2016

Yep. Who knows what's going on behind the closed doors of the Tyrell house, but at least it appears that they're all moving together towards a common purpose from the outside. The sad thing is we mostly see the Tyrells from Sansa and Cersei's points of view so its possible there is more than meets the eye going on, but nothing as obvious as the strain between Cersei and Tyrion or Tyrion and Tywin. The Lannisters have bright neon signs pointing at their weaknesses.

Avaleigh · March 29, 2016

The Lannisters have every advantage, they have inexplicable luck (e.g. Stannis and Renly choosing to turn on each other), they have the money, the numbers, the positions, and slowly but surely each one of them including Tyrion has a role to play in the downfall of the House. Even minor members like Kevan and Stafford contributed to its demise.

nodorothyparker · March 29, 2016

It always kills me a little that for all that we get from Tywin about the strength of House Lannister and how everything they do is supposed to be furthering that that he never seems to be able to accurately gauge what all their infighting is doing to them or how clearly their enemies see it and move on it. His own hatred of Tyrion blinds him on this as well. I can never reread the chapters following Joffrey's death without wondering what the ever living hell he was thinking letting Tyrion so publicly go on trial or letting Cersei jump to immediately accuse him and then frame him in the first place. Even if he truly believed Tyrion had done it, you would have thought he would have quietly taken care of it or come up with some other storyline to sell the public that wouldn't have been a giant red flag waving that the family was devouring its own and would be vulnerable.

But those are chapters to be discussed at a later date, I suppose.

Edited March 29, 2016 by nodorothyparker

DigitalCount · March 30, 2016

I could write reams on how Tywin is actually the most misunderstood character (sorry Mel, you're a nut), especially by the fans. D&D get a whole lot of well-deserved flack for their commentary on the character (and really they write all of the Lannisters named Lannister wrong to some degree) but way too many people love this dirtbag. You go on w.org and you get so many apologists for his actions, people ready to justify his stupid tactics and Pycelle-caliber bootlickers. This is the man who is directly responsible for his family's collapse, and I think that is the intent, but you wouldn't know it if you asked ten random fans.

Lady S. · March 30, 2016

Interesting that Cersei states here (and I believe later on) that it wasn't her preference to try to kill Bran. We do know she's had children killed before on her orders. Cersei hardly seems like someone who considers the political consequences of her actions (not having a trueborn heir with Robert, her pissing contests with Tyrion, not keeping a tighter rein on Joffrey, etc.) so is it a rare moment of compassion from her?

This is the same woman who sent Jeyne Poole to Littlefinger and could be pretty short on compassion for poor Tommen, her own son, in Feast, so I really doubt her heart ever bled for Bran. I think I've said before that I think she only decided trying to kill him was a bad idea after they knew he wouldn't die. When Tyrion first told them Bran may live, she and Jaime both looked panicky, and she even acknowledges to Jaime later, when he theorizes that Joff sent the dagger, that they all wanted him dead. If Bran had died on impact, what he saw would die with him, and no one would suspect foul play. That would be a problem solved, and I just can't believe Cersei would have a problem with it purely on moral grounds when she's never shown an ounce of regret for any of the other people hurt by House Lannister. But since she never can take responsibility for her mistakes, of course she'd put all the blame on Jaime and deny she wanted him to push Bran after he remained alive because the murder attempt didn't work. That kind of flip-flop, unlike true compassion, is perfectly in-character for Cersei, like how she goes from thinking one-handed Jaime is useless and a traitor to thinking he's still her protector and would never fail her.

nodorothyparker · March 30, 2016

I just can't believe Cersei would have a problem with it purely on moral grounds when she's never shown an ounce of regret for any of the other people hurt by House Lannister. But since she never can take responsibility for her mistakes, of course she'd put all the blame on Jaime and deny she wanted him to push Bran after he remained alive because the murder attempt didn't work.

Very true. The more I think about it, I don't really buy that Cersei wouldn't have been perfectly fine with it if Bran had been convenient enough to die either. Because you're right that we do have evidence that such things have never bothered her before. In Jaime's reminiscence of the shove heard round the world in the next book, he doesn't say that she objected at the time or tried to talk him out of it, just that she gave him no end of grief about it afterward and blamed him for not thinking of a better solution. Which is completely within Cersei's MO: Blame blame blame and deny any culpability.

It's funny to me that for as maligned as the show is by a lot of bookreaders, I'm inclined to think many probably wouldn't like Tywin half as much as they do if not for Charles Dance's rich portrayal of him. Tywin's still a terrible human being in both mediums but the show really played up a lot of his snark and gave him just enough humanity to allow him to come across more as a Magnificent Bastard rather than a complete bastard and terror to nearly everyone who knew him. While I don't like him as a person at all and find him written rather one note at times, ironically it's in the books where I'm able to find some understanding of how much of his behavior is an overcorrection to a weak father who allowed House Lannister to become something of a joke and to some truly terrible treatment by the mad king despite years of what we're told was fairly competent service as his hand. But yeah, none of that changes the fact that he absolutely is responsible for the destruction of his own house through his shortsightedness and cruelty to his own children.

Edited March 30, 2016 by nodorothyparker

benteen · March 30, 2016

Not to mention this inability to see the truth in front of him, like with Jaime and Cersei.

I agree a lot of Tywin's is due to Charles Dance, who was epic in the role even when his character was being a bastard.

Jazzy24 · March 30, 2016

I could write reams on how Tywin is actually the most misunderstood character (sorry Mel, you're a nut), especially by the fans. D&D get a whole lot of well-deserved flack for their commentary on the character (and really they write all of the Lannisters named Lannister wrong to some degree) but way too many people love this dirtbag. You go on w.org and you get so many apologists for his actions, people ready to justify his stupid tactics and Pycelle-caliber bootlickers. This is the man who is directly responsible for his family's collapse, and I think that is the intent, but you wouldn't know it if you asked ten random fans.

I think people like Tywin because of how effective he was which much of that was due to luck and better men not putting him down for his crimes.

Tywin is the most evil character in this series.

People call characters like Jotfery, Cersei, Roose, Gregor, and Ramsey evil yet Tywin has committed every single one of their crimes and than some. He's petty, cruel, disgusting, violent, a serial rapist, and mass murderer and yet people defend this gross excuse of a human being.

Tywin is a very petty, average intelligence, short sighted man who only got far in life because of luck.

Avaleigh · March 31, 2016

Catelyn VII

Catelyn and Brienne are having dinner in the Great Hall of Riverrun while everyone else in the castle is celebrating outside in the yard. Catelyn is thinking about her sons and feels that there's an empty place where her heart used to be.

The sound of Brienne eating becomes too much for Catelyn to bear so she tells her to go and join the party outside. Brienne says that she isn't really made for revels and Catelyn explains that she only thought that Brienne would prefer to be around happier people. Brienne says that she's fine where she is and eventually asks Catelyn if she's received word from her sons. Catelyn struggles to find the words and finally says that she has no other sons but Robb. Brienne says that the boys are with the gods now, and Catelyn asks what god would allow such a thing to happen.

Catelyn shows Brienne the scars on her hands and tells her about the attack on Bran. She assumes that Theon had the direwolves killed too and says she believed the wolves would be able protect the boys in the way Grey Wind protects Robb. She mentions that her daughters don't have their wolves anymore and gives Brienne some details on her daughters' personalities.

Catelyn confesses that she's had wine sent to the Kingslayer and wants Brienne to come with her down to the dungeons when she goes to question him.

Catelyn sits with her father for awhile and tells him that she had a dream about the time she and Lysa got lost riding back from Seaguard and how Littlefinger was the one to ride back and find them. She talks about all of things she wishes she could make happen and mentions that she's reflecting on the Stark words more often than usual.

At midnight Catelyn and Brienne go down to the dungeons and Catelyn asks Brienne to make sure that her talk with Jaime isn't disturbed. When Catelyn enters Jaime's cell there's a bucket of overflowing shit and he hasn't touched the wine that she's sent him.

Jaime is the first to speak and tells Catelyn that he's in no condition to receive her. Catelyn asks Jaime to look at her and thinks that his power and beauty are still apparent even in this unwashed state. She comments on the wine going untouched and Jaime replies that the sudden generosity seems suspicious.

The discussion turns to the gods and the afterlife and Catelyn tells Jaime that he's earned a spot in the lowest depths of the seven hells for all of the crimes he's committed. Jaime questions whether there any are gods at all and asks why the world is so full of pain and injustice if there are just gods at work.

Catelyn sees that they're getting nowhere and turns to leave when Jaime tells her that she may stay and have her answers at a price. He says that he'll answer her questions if she answers his. He starts drinking the wine and tells Catelyn to ask her first question.

She immediately asks if Joffrey is his son and Jaime admits that all of Cersei's children are his. Jaime asks about his family and is told about the death of Stafford. Jaime doesn't care about the death of 'Uncle Dolt' and says he was specifically concerned about his father and siblings. Catelyn says they all live but thinks to herself if the gods are good then they won't live much longer.

They cover Bran's fall next and Jaime admits that he tried to kill Bran after Bran saw him with Cersei. Jaime denies being involved in the second attempt on Bran's life. He admits that he and Cersei discussed it but says it didn't seem feasible or necessary when Bran seemed likely to die from his injuries. Jaime eventually convinces Catelyn that he wasn't involved in the second attempt, so she figures that it must have been Cersei. Jaime says that he'd know if Cersei were behind it; Catelyn then guesses that it must have been Tyrion and Jaime claims that Tyrion is as innocent as Bran in this matter.

The infamous dagger is discussed next and Catelyn realizes that not only do Tyrion and Jaime have the same story, but they haven't seen each other since they departed from Winterfell over a year ago. Jaime asks her why he'd lie about this when he's already admitted to trying to kill Bran.

Jaime asks about the Baratheon brothers and learns of Renly's murder. He asks what side the Tyrells have taken and she says they were with Renly and now she's not sure. Jaime comments that Robb must be feeling lonely and Catelyn replies that Robb is sixteen and has won every battle he's ever fought. She says the last she heard from him he'd taken the Crag from the Westerlings. Catelyn says that Robb will defeat Tywin just as he defeated Jaime, so Jaime whines about how Robb "tricked" him. Catelyn says that Jaime has nerve talking about tricks considering the stunt Tyrion pulled by trying to sneak Jaime out of Riverrun.

Catelyn asks Jaime how he can still call himself a knight when he seems to have forsaken all of his vows.

Jaime reached for the flagon to refill his cup. “So many vows... they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It’s too much. No matter what you do, you’re forsaking one vow or the other.”

When Jaime starts talking about the Kingsguard and killing Aerys, he starts to laugh and Catelyn realizes that he's finally drunk. He asks her if Ned ever told her about the manner of the deaths of Brandon and Rickard Stark. Jaime goes into the story of how Brandon went to King's Landing after hearing about Lyanna. Catelyn remembers how upset her father was when he learned that Brandon was riding down there.

After Brandon and his companions were arrested by Aerys and charged with treason, their fathers were summoned to court to answer the charges. Lord Rickard demanded a trial by combat, so Aerys responded by using fire as the champion of House Targaryen. Brandon strangled himself to death trying to save his father who was slowly roasted to death.

“As for Lord Rickard, the steel of his breastplate turned cherry-red before the end, and his gold melted off his spurs and dripped down into the fire. I stood at the foot of the Iron Throne in my white armor and white cloak, filling my head with thoughts of Cersei. After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, ‘You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.’ That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree.”

Catelyn is disgusted by Jaime's story but suspects that every word of it is true. She tells Jaime that there's no way that she's going to believe that he killed Aerys to avenge Brandon.

“I made no such claim. The Starks were nothing to me. I will say, I think it passing odd that I am loved by one for a kindness I never did, and reviled by so many for my finest act. At Robert’s coronation, I was made to kneel at the royal feet beside Grand Maester Pycelle and Varys the eunuch, so that he might forgive us our crimes before he took us into his service. As for your Ned, he should have kissed the hand that slew Aerys, but he preferred to scorn the arse he found sitting on Robert’s throne. I think Ned Stark loved Robert better than he ever loved his brother or his father... or even you, my lady. He was never unfaithful to Robert, was he?” Jaime gave a drunken laugh. “Come, Lady Stark, don’t you find this all terribly amusing?”

Catelyn tells Jaime that she doesn't find anything amusing about him and addresses him as Kingslayer. Jaime responds by taunting her a bit more and freely admits that he's never been with any woman other than Cersei. He says that in his own way he's been more faithful to Cersei than Ned ever was to Catelyn. He asks her the name of the bastard Ned fathered.

Catelyn takes a step back, calls out, and asks Brienne for her sword.

Avaleigh · March 31, 2016

There's a nice amount of Stoneheart foreshadowing in this chapter.

I can't stop feeling sorry for Catelyn. She thinks that three of her kids are dead and everyone in her ancestral home is outside celebrating. They don't know but that still has to suck.

One thing that I will say is unrealistic is how Catelyn isn't overwhelmed by the stench. It should have been way more of an issue for her.

She doesn't have many thoughts on Littlefinger here after the dagger reveal. She seems to be full of more questions. Interesting too that she has a dream/memory about Littlefinger where he's helping her and Lysa after they get lost.

Brandon was an idiot. Surely Aerys had a reputation at that point. It sounds totally foolish to just go outside of the Red Keep and shout for the crown prince to come out to die. I wonder how the other lords and their sons were executed.

I didn't realize how many characters in this story question the existence of the gods.

I still remember thinking 'Gah, don't kill him, things just got interesting!'

Lady S. · March 31, 2016

There's a nice amount of Stoneheart foreshadowing in this chapter.

Also some nice mother/daughter parallels with Catelyn saying she has a hole where her heart was and listing all the enemies she wants dead. I love the line about how she'd enjoy swinging the sword even though Ned never did. Having watched the show first, I didn't realize on first read just how much this chapter is set up to make you think she's going to kill Jaime.

I found it really striking that she asked what kind of god would let Bran and Rickon die because otherwise I'd say she's one of the most devout PoVs, actually believing in the Seven and the old gods.

I don't really know what to think of Catelyn referring to her visit with Jaime as "doing her duty". Anyone else have a take on that?

Regarding Brandon Stark, does anyone find it incongruous that Jaime says there are no men like him and then says Brandon was more like him? Make up your mind, Kingslayer. Jaime and Brandon were both reckless to the point of idiocy, but really we know Brandon was more like Robert, and actually I'd say that Jaime and Ned had more in common than either could ever know or admit to. Anyways, people like to say that Brandon shouting for Rhaegar and not Lyanna meant he cared more about family pride than his sister, but whether he did or didn't, I don't think that line is a clear indicator either way, because Jaime would never compare himself to a man who obviously didn't care about his sister.

The other interesting thing we learn about Brandon is that except for his squire (and I've always wondered why Aerys spared him, btw), all of his other companions were either from the Vale or the Riverlands. I can only assume that he met and befriended those guys while visiting Ned and Cat respectively, which, along with Ned's assertion that Brandon bitched often about Littlefinger, would seem to indicate that he didn't actually have a problem with his father's southron ambitions, despite what Barbrey Dustin thought. Catelyn getting choked up when talking about this is the most emotion she ever shows about Brandon, but considering that he died suddenly and horribly and that was a major turning point in her life, I still don't think that means she was really in love with him or that he was the love of her life. I also doubt she ever really had much chance to grieve for that life that could have been, just as she doesn't do more than let her eyes water over Bran and Rickon, and never allowed herself to cry for Ned either before, because she knew pretty soon after that she'd be marrying Ned instead.

Hecate7 · March 31, 2016

Plus, I wonder if Joffrey was showing signs of becoming a good king - even better than his father - would Jon A have ever investigated to begin with? I mean we know Jon was killed because of LF's scheming, not the twincest, but would LF had even gone for it if Joffrey was showing signs of being a good king?

Yes, he would have, because he wasn't investigating Joffrey at first. He was investigating the murder of Jon Arryn. Littlefinger would still be the same person, so he'd still have gotten Lyssa to kill Jon, and send the letter implicating the Lannisters. Ned would still think the worst of Jaime and Cersei, and so would believe Lyssa, and so would Cat. Littlefinger would still be playing everyone. Ned would still investigate what possible motive the Lannisters might have for killing Jon Arryn, and what he believed was that Arryn was killed for getting too close to the truth about Joffrey's parentage. Ironically, the Lannisters didn't actually kill Jon Arryn at all, and possibly Ned might have discovered that, had Tyrion been at large to help him.

What I think would change, however, is Ned's reaction to discovering the truth about Joffrey. If Joffrey were a really good kid, Ned might want to protect him. There'd be no assassin at Winterfell, no arrest of Tyrion, and therefore no fight between Ned and Jaime, nor any hitting of Cersei by Robert.

This is making me realize how very important Tyrion's imprisonment was to the plot. Had he been left alone, Tyrion would most likely have headed for King's Landing after Winterfell, and spoken with Ned about Bran. Had Joffrey been really good instead of the tormentor of Tyrion, Tommen, and everyone else, he'd have had Tyrion on his side. Tyrion seems to already know from the start whose son Joffrey is, but he doesn't care. So when he saw Ned sniffing, Tyrion would very likely have redirected Ned's energies into less dangerous pursuits, such as finding out who REALLY killed Jon Arryn and why, rather than unseating the golden boy.

Ned would have been less motivated to suspect the Lannisters once he uncovered the extent of Littlefinger and Lyssa's treachery. I'm quite impressed with how GRRM pushed his pieces into place, here.

nksarmi · March 31, 2016

Yes, he would have, because he wasn't investigating Joffrey at first. He was investigating the murder of Jon Arryn. Littlefinger would still be the same person, so he'd still have gotten Lyssa to kill Jon, and send the letter implicating the Lannisters. Ned would still think the worst of Jaime and Cersei, and so would believe Lyssa, and so would Cat. Littlefinger would still be playing everyone. Ned would still investigate what possible motive the Lannisters might have for killing Jon Arryn, and what he believed was that Arryn was killed for getting too close to the truth about Joffrey's parentage. Ironically, the Lannisters didn't actually kill Jon Arryn at all, and possibly Ned might have discovered that, had Tyrion been at large to help him.

What I think would change, however, is Ned's reaction to discovering the truth about Joffrey. If Joffrey were a really good kid, Ned might want to protect him. There'd be no assassin at Winterfell, no arrest of Tyrion, and therefore no fight between Ned and Jaime, nor any hitting of Cersei by Robert.

This is making me realize how very important Tyrion's imprisonment was to the plot. Had he been left alone, Tyrion would most likely have headed for King's Landing after Winterfell, and spoken with Ned about Bran. Had Joffrey been really good instead of the tormentor of Tyrion, Tommen, and everyone else, he'd have had Tyrion on his side. Tyrion seems to already know from the start whose son Joffrey is, but he doesn't care. So when he saw Ned sniffing, Tyrion would very likely have redirected Ned's energies into less dangerous pursuits, such as finding out who REALLY killed Jon Arryn and why, rather than unseating the golden boy.

Ned would have been less motivated to suspect the Lannisters once he uncovered the extent of Littlefinger and Lyssa's treachery. I'm quite impressed with how GRRM pushed his pieces into place, here.

Actually what I meant was would Jon A have investigated Joffrey to begin with. It doesn't seem like Arryn just stumbled on the blonde hair thing - I think something got him thinking about "what if the heir to the throne isn't really the king's son?" And I wonder if Joffrey was a delightfully good character (kind, noble, intelligent, etc...), would anyone have bothered to ask such questions even if multiple people suspected the twincest. It seems that if Joffrey was showing signs of being the king they all wanted, people would have been protecting him as opposed to looking for reasons to take him down.

And in that type of environment - I wonder if Littlefinger would have been bold enough to act. In his heart, I believe LF is a coward. He is smart and manipulative and opportunistic, but still a coward. I think the fact that he could see Robert B was a drunk, weak king and Joffrey was well on his way to becoming a psychopath that no one would want as king even if he was the true heir made LF bold enough to put his schemes into motion. I don't know if he would have tried in another setting.

nodorothyparker · March 31, 2016

I love Catelyn's chapter so much. It's so well written. The way it's set up, I'm pretty sure I would have thought it was building to her killing Jaime at the end too if I hadn't seen it play out on TV first. At this point, she's just been told Bran and Rickon are dead and she has reason to think Arya might very well be too. People outside are celebrating what's really a very minor victory and it all just rings very hollow and pointless to her. The scene in her father's chambers of "I want ... I want ..." in talking about wanting to see Robb and the girls grow up and marry and the futility of continuing the war really lays out her motivation to make this one last desperate attempt to swap Jaime that won't be about political objectives or games between Robb and Tyrion/Cersei. She's thinking as a mother here, not as a house matriarch or an advisor to a king.

The show kind of botched this by moving when Catelyn and Robb heard about Theon's betrayal and the boys' believed fate. It barely figures in as a catalyst at all. Weirdly, the show never had either of them clear what had happened to the boys where here they'll both go to their deaths believing the boys are also gone and acting accordingly. Show Catelyn's decision to release Jaime seemed to be more about keeping the Karstarks from getting to him first and puts you in the position of sort of agreeing with the bannermen who are grumbling about her committing treason against Robb.

I love a character who's thought to be dishonorable while actually being a truthteller as much as anyone, but I always end up wondering about some of Jaime's motivation here. He and Cersei have spent their entire lives covering their tracks. Their family is currently at war at least partially over Joffrey's succession, and he was captured before Stannis's letter made the rounds so he's very likely unaware that the twincest has been so widely talked about. Yet he's just laying it all out here. Is he just bored? Expecting to be killed anyway so what does it matter? Trying to provoke a reaction? He's not drunk when the conversation begins. Sure, it's obvious in the beginning that he wants to keep the conversation going rather than go back to sitting alone in the dark but he's really not holding anything back here at all.

We haven't really gotten a whole lot of Jaime up to this point in the series. He hasn't appeared at all in this book until now and what little we saw of him in GOT was mostly as a sister fucking, child flinging, smarmy asshole. Yet his perspective is fascinating. This is where you start to realize that with Ned and Robert and nearly everyone else from the rebellion era dead, this is the guy who was there for all of it

Jazzy24 · March 31, 2016

I love Catelyn's chapter so much. It's so well written. The way it's set up, I'm pretty sure I would have thought it was building to her killing Jaime at the end too if I hadn't seen it play out on TV first. At this point, she's just been told Bran and Rickon are dead and she has reason to think Arya might very well be too. People outside are celebrating what's really a very minor victory and it all just rings very hollow and pointless to her. The scene in her father's chambers of "I want ... I want ..." in talking about wanting to see Robb and the girls grow up and marry and the futility of continuing the war really lays out her motivation to make this one last desperate attempt to swap Jaime that won't be about political objectives or games between Robb and Tyrion/Cersei. She's thinking as a mother here, not as a house matriarch or an advisor to a king.

The show kind of botched this by moving when Catelyn and Robb heard about Theon's betrayal and the boys' believed fate. It barely figures in as a catalyst at all. Weirdly, the show never had either of them clear what had happened to the boys where here they'll both go to their deaths believing the boys are also gone and acting accordingly. Show Catelyn's decision to release Jaime seemed to be more about keeping the Karstarks from getting to him first and puts you in the position of sort of agreeing with the bannermen who are grumbling about her committing treason against Robb.

I love a character who's thought to be dishonorable while actually being a truthteller as much as anyone, but I always end up wondering about some of Jaime's motivation here. He and Cersei have spent their entire lives covering their tracks. Their family is currently at war at least partially over Joffrey's succession, and he was captured before Stannis's letter made the rounds so he's very likely unaware that the twincest has been so widely talked about. Yet he's just laying it all out here. Is he just bored? Expecting to be killed anyway so what does it matter? Trying to provoke a reaction? He's not drunk when the conversation begins. Sure, it's obvious in the beginning that he wants to keep the conversation going rather than go back to sitting alone in the dark but he's really not holding anything back here at all.

We haven't really gotten a whole lot of Jaime up to this point in the series. He hasn't appeared at all in this book until now and what little we saw of him in GOT was mostly as a sister fucking, child flinging, smarmy asshole. Yet his perspective is fascinating. This is where you start to realize that with Ned and Robert and nearly everyone else from the rebellion era dead, this is the guy who was there for all of it

To the bolded the reason I think Jaime just laid everything out there was because he doesn't care at all. And he probably wanted to just hear himself talk because he's a narcissist.

But seriously tho Jaime covered up the incest all those years because that's what Cersei wanted. Jaime would have gladly told anybody and everybody that him and Cersei were in love but since Cersei didn't want that he went along with her.

And no he also doesn't care that his family is fighting a war or that his bastards would die if they lost the war because Jaime never cared about Joffery, Myrcella, or Tommen. His only main concern is Cersei, Cersei's vagina, Tyrion, and Tywin.

Avaleigh · March 31, 2016

Re: Gerold Hightower--that one of the greatest knights in history just stood by while Aerys did his thing kind of validates a lot of what Sandor has been saying.

I love Catelyn's chapter so much. It's so well written. The way it's set up, I'm pretty sure I would have thought it was building to her killing Jaime at the end too if I hadn't seen it play out on TV first. At this point, she's just been told Bran and Rickon are dead and she has reason to think Arya might very well be too. People outside are celebrating what's really a very minor victory and it all just rings very hollow and pointless to her. The scene in her father's chambers of "I want ... I want ..." in talking about wanting to see Robb and the girls grow up and marry and the futility of continuing the war really lays out her motivation to make this one last desperate attempt to swap Jaime that won't be about political objectives or games between Robb and Tyrion/Cersei. She's thinking as a mother here, not as a house matriarch or an advisor to a king.

The show kind of botched this by moving when Catelyn and Robb heard about Theon's betrayal and the boys' believed fate. It barely figures in as a catalyst at all. Weirdly, the show never had either of them clear what had happened to the boys where here they'll both go to their deaths believing the boys are also gone and acting accordingly. Show Catelyn's decision to release Jaime seemed to be more about keeping the Karstarks from getting to him first and puts you in the position of sort of agreeing with the bannermen who are grumbling about her committing treason against Robb.

I love a character who's thought to be dishonorable while actually being a truthteller as much as anyone, but I always end up wondering about some of Jaime's motivation here. He and Cersei have spent their entire lives covering their tracks. Their family is currently at war at least partially over Joffrey's succession, and he was captured before Stannis's letter made the rounds so he's very likely unaware that the twincest has been so widely talked about. Yet he's just laying it all out here. Is he just bored? Expecting to be killed anyway so what does it matter? Trying to provoke a reaction? He's not drunk when the conversation begins. Sure, it's obvious in the beginning that he wants to keep the conversation going rather than go back to sitting alone in the dark but he's really not holding anything back here at all.

We haven't really gotten a whole lot of Jaime up to this point in the series. He hasn't appeared at all in this book until now and what little we saw of him in GOT was mostly as a sister fucking, child flinging, smarmy asshole. Yet his perspective is fascinating. This is where you start to realize that with Ned and Robert and nearly everyone else from the rebellion era dead, this is the guy who was there for all of it

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Jaime thought he might die after being sent that wine all of a sudden and figured what the hell. I don't think he would have been open about it if he'd been dragged to the Great Hall for questions because he'd have protecting Cersei in the back of his mind.

When Jaime talks about how he tried to keep his thoughts on Cersei while Rickard was being roasted to death, it reminded me of the conversation that Tommen later has with him when Tommen says that he used to "go away inside" whenever Joffrey would do some unnamed terrible thing, probably animal torture.

I don't really know what to think of Catelyn referring to her visit with Jaime as "doing her duty". Anyone else have a take on that?

Maybe she was thinking about her duty as a mother?

Hecate7 · March 31, 2016

Actually what I meant was would Jon A have investigated Joffrey to begin with. It doesn't seem like Arryn just stumbled on the blonde hair thing - I think something got him thinking about "what if the heir to the throne isn't really the king's son?" And I wonder if Joffrey was a delightfully good character (kind, noble, intelligent, etc...), would anyone have bothered to ask such questions even if multiple people suspected the twincest. It seems that if Joffrey was showing signs of being the king they all wanted, people would have been protecting him as opposed to looking for reasons to take him down.

And in that type of environment - I wonder if Littlefinger would have been bold enough to act. In his heart, I believe LF is a coward. He is smart and manipulative and opportunistic, but still a coward. I think the fact that he could see Robert B was a drunk, weak king and Joffrey was well on his way to becoming a psychopath that no one would want as king even if he was the true heir made LF bold enough to put his schemes into motion. I don't know if he would have tried in another setting.

You're so right. I think Jon Arryn would have been less curious were Joffrey not a monster, and he probably would have protected him. LF would still have had a vendetta against him, though, and I think he and Lyssa would have moved on it anyway. LF wouldn't have cared if Joffrey was a good king or a nice kid. He wants his revenge on the Starks, Tullys, Arryns, Baratheons, and Lannisters, and he'd have found a way to set up the situation anyway.

Re: Gerold Hightower--that one of the greatest knights in history just stood by while Aerys did his thing kind of validates a lot of what Sandor has been saying.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Jaime thought he might die after being sent that wine all of a sudden and figured what the hell. I don't think he would have been open about it if he'd been dragged to the Great Hall for questions because he'd have protecting Cersei in the back of his mind.

When Jaime talks about how he tried to keep his thoughts on Cersei while Rickard was being roasted to death, it reminded me of the conversation that Tommen later has with him when Tommen says that he used to "go away inside" whenever Joffrey would do some unnamed terrible thing, probably animal torture.

Maybe she was thinking about her duty as a mother?

I've always thought that at the beginning of the conversation, Jaime was trying to provoke Catelyn into killing him. I do not think he'd have answered her questions so freely in a Great Hall or at a tribunal, because of Cersei and the kids. Jaime cares about Cersei and would never have exposed her like that. But I think as the conversation wears on, he realizes that Catelyn understands, and he opens up. Because let's face it, not very many people actually listen to Jaime. In that bizarre conversation, he goes from trying to get Catelyn to kill him with a rock, to actually bonding with her. And it works. She frees him, and he is in fact grateful to her and determined to keep his promise to her.

Avaleigh · March 31, 2016

I think Catelyn was rattled to get the truth from two people she sees as scheming liars while she gets huge whopper lies from two people that she trusts and cares about. I think she wants to find an honorable explanation for why Littlefinger would lie but is unable to find one. And while she doesn't spend much time thinking about it, Catelyn also caught on that Lysa's story about who killed Jon Arryn was suspiciously inconsistent.

Regarding Littlefinger in a scenario where Joffrey is a nice kid, I can't help but think that he'd pay more attention to the rumors about Daenerys in the east and see how he'd be able to cause chaos in that way.

SeanC · March 31, 2016

Actually what I meant was would Jon A have investigated Joffrey to begin with. It doesn't seem like Arryn just stumbled on the blonde hair thing - I think something got him thinking about "what if the heir to the throne isn't really the king's son?"

Arryn was alerted to the idea by Stannis, we're told.

nodorothyparker · March 31, 2016

The rock thing was a show-only invention.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Jaime thought he might die after being sent that wine all of a sudden and figured what the hell. I don't think he would have been open about it if he'd been dragged to the Great Hall for questions because he'd have protecting Cersei in the back of his mind.

It's probably as good an answer as any. He says in the course of the conversation that he doesn't care what people think of him anymore. I'm sure sitting for a long time in one cell and then in an exponentially worse one gives you a lot of time to think about that.

I don't fully buy the idea that it's only because he doesn't care about anyone else though. Sure, he's obsessed with Cersei. And no, he doesn't really care all that much about the kids at this point. He's been conditioned for their entire lives not to because of the little issue of treason that their existence as his children by the king's legal wife would be. Robert's death certainly frees them of most of that concern and by the time in SOS when he's fantasizing about just being open about all of it and marrying Cersei, it's already a widely known thing thanks to Stannis and his letter. Joffrey's and then Tommen's reigns at that point are more about combined Lannister-Tyrell might and polite fiction that hasn't been publicly disavowed rather than legitimate succession.

I concur that to him confessing it in a one on one situation like this that he doesn't know he's going to live beyond is probably not remotely the same thing as making a public confession. As Catelyn already pointed out in an earlier chapter, whether anyone believes it has more to do with whether it serves them to believe it than what the actual truth of it is. She's on the opposing side. So even if she later says "Jaime Lannister told me ..." the people who believe it are likely to be the same people who believed Stannis.

It is interesting to contemplate that Catelyn is probably the first person Jaime's ever told, about the kids and about what the mad king did.

Lady S. · April 1, 2016

It is interesting to contemplate that Catelyn is probably the first person Jaime's ever told, about the kids and about what the mad king did.

I think he might have told Tyrion about the kids (because one of his reasons for not believing Tyrion killed Joffrey was that Tyrion knew Joff was his son), but he does make a habit of unloading to women about the Mad King. I think he was being honest about the kids with her because there was nothing she could do with the info anyway, as he says she wouldn't ask if she didn't already know, but confirming her suspicions privately wouldn't be real proof. With Robert and Ned dead and Robb crowned it was really too late for the truth of what Bran saw in that tower to give the Starks any advantage.

I'm not sure whether to ask this question now or with the Theon chapter up next, but was there anyone who read the book first and believed Bran and Rickon had been killed offscreen?

Avaleigh · April 1, 2016

Theon V

Theon is having a nightmare where he's he's being attacked by these massive wolves that have the heads of small children. He repeatedly pleads for mercy and flails out of his sleep to reach for his dagger only to knock it to the floor. He sees that Wex and Reek are both in his room and is soon informed of Asha's arrival.

Theon reflects on the nightmares he's been having ever since he and Reek murdered the two boys down at the mill. One nightmare features the miller's wife castrating Theon while she rips his throat out. Theon thinks about the murder of the miller's wife and how she pleaded to him for mercy.

Several of Theon's men have been murdered and he understands that Winterfell wants him dead. He now takes his guards with him wherever he goes even if it's to the privy. He doesn't want the murder of his guards to go unpunished, so he decides that the kennel master Farlen is guilty and sentences him to die. Farlen tells Theon that Stark always did his own beheadings, so Theon does the deed but does a bad job of it and it takes four strikes before the ordeal is over. The experience makes Theon vomit and he remembers all the times when he and Farlen would talk to each other over a drink.

Theon's men are unhappy and ready to leave Winterfell and Black Lorren tells Theon that they're dwelling among enemies and would do better to leave. Theon shouts that he's the "Prince of Winterfell" and insists that no person will drive him away from his seat.

Asha and her men are eating in the Great Hall and Theon is dismayed when he sees that she's only brought twenty men with her. Asha asks her brother if he's the 'Prince of Fools' and teases him about what a great warrior he is. She asks him which of the boys put up the better fight and Theon flushes when he starts thinking back to day he put the headless bodies on display for the entire castle to see.

Maester Luwin is the only one who approached the bodies of the children. He asks Theon if he can reattach their heads and place them in the crypts of Winterfell but Theon is adamant in his refusal and has the bodies burned instead. After the bodies have been burned, Theon goes back to retrieve the wolf's head brooch that belonged to Bran and keeps it.

Theon asks his sister how she expects him to hold Winterfell with twenty men and Asha informs him that she's actually only leaving ten behind. Theon explains that he's going have an army at the gates before the moon turns and again asks how he's expected to hold the castle with so few men. Asha tells Theon that he should have thought about all this before he decided to take the castle in the first place. She admits that he had a good plan but says he ought to have burned the castle to the ground and taken the Stark boys back with him to Pyke. She says he could have won the war in a single stroke if he hadn't been so foolish.

Theon tries to claim that he killed the boys for their brothers Rodrik and Maron but Asha doesn't seem like she's buying it. She tells Theon that for the sake of their mother she wants him to return with her to Deepwood Motte and put Winterfell to the torch while he still can.

Theon takes a moment to adjust his crown and insists that since he's taken the castle, he means to hold on to it. Asha looks at her brother for a long time and tells him that he'll hold the castle for the rest of his life. Before she leaves the room she tells him that he's wearing the ugliest crown she's ever seen and asks him if he made it himself.

As Theon watches his sister leave, Reek appears at his side and says that it isn't right for Asha to have abandoned him. He tells Theon that if he gives him a horse and a bag of coin that he'll come back with one or two hundred men. He explains that he's from the north and claims a lot of men know him. Theon tells Reek that he'll be able to name his reward if he brings back two hundred men. Reek says that he hasn't had a woman since he was with 'Lord Ramsay' and says that he has his eye on Palla. Reek leaves on a horse with a bag of silver, and Theon thinks it's likely that he'll never see the guy again.

Theon dreams of the feast at Winterfell that Ned held for Robert. At first there's music and laughter with Theon making jokes and checking out serving girls, and then everything suddenly grows darker and Theon soon realizes that he's dining with a bunch of dead people. Robert is there and his guts are spilling out; Ned is headless beside him; Jory, Fat Tom, and all of the men who rode with Ned to King's Landing are there. Benfred Tallhart, Mikken, Septon Chayle, the miller's wife, Farlen, and even the wildling that Theon killed to save Bran's life are all at the feast in the dream.

There are other faces too but they're faces that Theon has only ever seen in stone before.

The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind. Along the walls figures halfseen moved through the shadows, pale shades with long grim faces. The sight of them sent fear shivering through Theon sharp as a knife. And then the tall doors opened with a crash, and a freezing gale blew down the hall, and Robb came walking out of the night. Grey Wind stalked beside, eyes burning, and man and wolf alike bled from half a hundred savage wounds.

Theon wakes up screaming and startles his squire and guards. He ends up sending for Maester Luwin and soon feels ashamed for panicking. Luwin gives him a sleeping draught but Theon pours it down the privy as soon as the maester leaves believing that Luwin would like nothing more than to poison him.

He sends for Kyra next and fucks her until she's bruised and sobbing. He then kicks her out of bed, throws her a blanket, and tells her to get out. He's still restless after this, so at dawn he gets dressed and decides to walk outside along the outer walls.

On his left he could see tower tops above the inner wall, their roofs gilded by the rising sun. The red leaves of the weirwood were a blaze of flame among the green. Ned Stark’s tree, he thought, and Stark’s wood, Stark’s castle, Stark’s sword, Stark’s gods. This is their place, not mine. I am a Greyjoy of Pyke, born to paint a kraken on my shield and sail the great salt sea. I should have gone with Asha.

He thinks about what fools people are and of how easy it was to trick everyone into believing that the bodies were of Bran and Rickon.

glowbug · April 1, 2016

I saw season one and two before reading books one through three so I can't say for certain but I think I would have known Bran and Rickon weren't really dead just like I knew the Hound didn't kill Arya with the axe in book three despite not having been spoiled by the show. I might have thought Jamie was dead, though, had I not seen the show first. I did think Theon was dead at the end of book two, especially since he didn't show up in book three, until I saw season three of the show (or maybe the promos if he was in those). I read the first three books between seasons two and three, but I saved book four, which he also doesn't appear in anyway, until before season four and didn't read book five until shortly before season five aired. I would have been shocked when he showed up in book five otherwise. I wish I hadn't been spoiled by the show because I hated Theon with the fire of a thousand suns in book two (and season two) so I was really upset that he wasn't dead, especially since the torture scenes weren't fun to watch. I dreaded his reappearance in the books but when he did show up not only did GRRM skip the torture scenes but his chapters became some of my favorite of the entire series so I was upset for nothing.

Edited April 1, 2016 by glowbug

Hecate7 · April 1, 2016

Interesting that Cersei states here (and I believe later on) that it wasn't her preference to try to kill Bran. We do know she's had children killed before on her orders. Cersei hardly seems like someone who considers the political consequences of her actions (not having a trueborn heir with Robert, her pissing contests with Tyrion, not keeping a tighter rein on Joffrey, etc.) so is it a rare moment of compassion from her?

No. She states to Jaime after the fact that she never asked him to kill Bran, but actually yes, she did. "He SAW us! He saw us!" What did she think Jaime would do? She comes up with other alternatives, none of which are feasible and none of which would have worked, by way of resisting any feelings of responsibility or guilt. She just wants to make sure Jaime knows it's not her fault--it's entirely Jaime's fault. She's got no compassion or sympathy for anyone, not even for Jaime, who actually is legitimately tormented by what he did to Bran for her sake. She just says it to make it clear to Jaime that she won't accept a guilt trip from him about Bran.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Hecate7

Avaleigh · April 1, 2016

Theon continues to be the worst. I do find it interesting that he wasn't willing to allow the bodies to rest in the crypts. To me that was out of some superstitious fear. He knows that the bodies don't belong in the crypts and it's almost like he fears what would happen if he dared to put a non-Stark down there.

I was stupid not to realize that the miller's wife would have been killed too. I'm glad that she's haunting his ass.

Is Bran in Theon's dreams the way that Bloodraven was in his dreams? It's the part with Robb and Grey Wind that makes me wonder. Lady S., I was thinking about what you were saying about Bran factoring in during Jon's dreams and now I'm wondering if Bran is capable of getting into Theon's dreams, is it Bran who sent Jaime the dream about Joanna? Of all the dreams that have taken place in the series that one intrigues me the most, so I'm curious as to whether or not Bran is entering the dreams of multiple characters and if there are going to be any others. It also made me wonder if Ned's bed is made of weirwood.

Luwin is probably too honorable to poison Theon isn't he? I wonder. I'm kind of in the middle on that. I definitely don't think he was trying to poison Theon in that moment but it's crazy to me that he didn't jump at the chance to leave with Asha.

It makes me wonder how the ten men who were left behind feel about the assignment they've been given. Did they do something to piss Asha off? Does she think maybe they'll be able to convince Theon to leave? Did she just pick ten guys and not put much thought into it?

I got the chills when "Reek" said that he wanted the recently raped Palla.

Kyra's life is already terrible and it's only going to get worse. I didn't realize that Theon treated her like shit prior to her falling into Ramsay's hands.

Theon is so blind. By what stretch of the imagination would a guy like Reek be able to read and write? Even he acknowledges that it's unusual but doesn't put any thought into what it could mean. He only sees how it might benefit him. In retrospect, seeing Theon miss this huge clue that Reek isn't who he says he is makes me a little more frustrated with the Tywin/Arya stuff on the show when before I kind of didn't think it was that big of a deal. I agree now that it is terribly unrealistic especially when they're trying to portray Tywin as somebody who is more competent than the average.

nodorothyparker · April 2, 2016

I hadn't reached this point in the book yet when I saw the show scene of them stringing up the smoking corpses over Winterfell's gates. So on the show, yeah, I truly thought Bran and Rickon were dead until they reappeared an episode or two later. But we saw book Theon and "Reek" unable to find the Stark kids, needing to resolve the matter somehow, and then mulling over the fact that the miller also had two boys a chapter or two back. So while it wasn't explicitly shown, the fact that we're then told about the deaths in various letters to other characters pretty strongly implies in a series where offscreen deaths just aren't really a thing that something other than what we're being told about happened.

I never even considered that all of this meant that the miller's wife was killed too. But this is usually where I'm ginning up my own bit of moral outrage that these two peasant boys were so expendable to everyone that they're almost completely forgotten in the general attitude of "hooray, at least it wasn't Bran and Rickon or anyone important killed."

I honestly hoped Theon was dead by the time his chapters in this book were over. Someone spoiled me in a general discussion that he was still alive in book five and I wasn't all that happy about it. Otherwise, I doubt I would have given him much further thought beyond yeah, he was an delusional asshole who was way more trouble than he was worth.

Edited April 2, 2016 by nodorothyparker

Lady S. · April 2, 2016

Theon continues to be the worst. I do find it interesting that he wasn't willing to allow the bodies to rest in the crypts. To me that was out of some superstitious fear. He knows that the bodies don't belong in the crypts and it's almost like he fears what would happen if he dared to put a non-Stark down there.

More of the idea that the crypts are a Stark place, hostile to outsiders. Theon remembers he never liked the crypts when he takes Lady Dustin down there. But he could name all the statues for her just like he recognizes the dead Starks in his dreams, so I can only assume Robb made him play down there growing up and he went rather than let a younger boy think he was chicken.

Is Bran in Theon's dreams the way that Bloodraven was in his dreams? It's the part with Robb and Grey Wind that makes me wonder. Lady S., I was thinking about what you were saying about Bran factoring in during Jon's dreams and now I'm wondering if Bran is capable of getting into Theon's dreams, is it Bran who sent Jaime the dream about Joanna? Of all the dreams that have taken place in the series that one intrigues me the most, so I'm curious as to whether or not Bran is entering the dreams of multiple characters and if there are going to be any others. It also made me wonder if Ned's bed is made of weirwood.

I think it was Jaime's Brienne dream that was definitely old gods-related, since he was resting on a weirwood trunk. I don't know about all the freaky dreams being intentionally sent by Bran or Bloodraven, kinda takes some of the mystery out of it. The only thing I'm sure of is Bran communicating with his siblings

, and he's definitely reaching out to Theon for whatever reason in Theon's sample Winds chapter

. And Ned's weirwood bed is just fanon imo, people assume it's described that way in the books but it never is. The most intriguing take I've seen for Theon's nightmares is that Winterfell itself is such a locus of old magical energy that it rejects intruders in the crypts or in the lord's bedchamber. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell and all that. As to that last, more prophetic dream, what's most interesting to me is that it seems to link up with one of Jon's later crypt dreams. Sometime in Storm, Jon meets up with a bloody Grey Wind in the crypts and can hear a noisy feast going on aboveground. He thinks that the feast is not for him because the living shouldn't feast with the dead or something, which is interesting because Theon's survived all this time.

Luwin is probably too honorable to poison Theon isn't he? I wonder. I'm kind of in the middle on that. I definitely don't think he was trying to poison Theon in that moment but it's crazy to me that he didn't jump at the chance to leave with Asha.

Luwin is definitely too honorable since he advises Theon well until the end and gets killed serving, but I'm sure someone on the inside would have tried something at some point if Theon had the chance to hold Winterfell much longer. Most sieges would be broken by a hostile populace within, something which Theon and the Lannisters are ignoring. Theon should have learned that from Ned, but he's proving really bad at following Ned's example correctly. I'd almost feel bad for the ironborn stuck following this fool, but they're probably all pretty terrible themselves.

I got the chills when "Reek" said that he wanted the recently raped Palla.

Once again I don't want to think about what happened to Winterfell's girls/women after the Sack.

Theon is so blind. By what stretch of the imagination would a guy like Reek be able to read and write? Even he acknowledges that it's unusual but doesn't put any thought into what it could mean. He only sees how it might benefit him. In retrospect, seeing Theon miss this huge clue that Reek isn't who he says he is makes me a little more frustrated with the Tywin/Arya stuff on the show when before I kind of didn't think it was that big of a deal. I agree now that it is terribly unrealistic especially when they're trying to portray Tywin as somebody who is more competent than the average.

And how ridiculous is it that some dead guy's servant would be able to find 200 friends willing to oppose the Starks and fight for the ironborn? Theon doubts "Reek" intends to come back but has no thoughts about how ludicrously far-fetched his offer of help was. I understand why he'd think there's no reason not to let this creep leave, but it has to be a sign of Theon's desperation and ever-growing lack of rational thinking that he's willing to trust the guy at all and not question him more, especially seeing as Reek was a smelly servant found in the dungeons and Theon is an arrogant, classist dick.

Edited April 2, 2016 by Lady S.

nodorothyparker · April 2, 2016

One of the few amusing things in Theon's chapter is that he has to traipse about in an ugly halfassed crown because they killed Mikken. It's a nice bit of sly commentary on an otherwise fairly grim chapter about the entire halfassed occupation.

You kind of hope the 10 men Asha leaves behind lost a bet or something because you know they have to be looking around this undermanned castle so far from the sea or any hope of reinforcements in the middle of hostile territory and thinking they're just screwed. I'm unclear why Asha left them at all. She's able to size up the situation pretty clearly and realize there's no holding Winterfell long term without a tremendous commitment the Ironborn just aren't going to make. So why indulge the brother she dismisses as a fool and a lightweight any further?

I try not to think too much about the request for Palla or the likely situation for any of the women in any of the places we see conquered and pillaged or I won't keep reading.

Yep, there's no getting around the idiocy of Theon taking "Reek" at face value at every turn. He's a filthy smelly servant locked in the dungeons, but he can read and write. He can summon 200 men willing to fight against their own countrymen for the Ironborn. I would imagine given everything we're told about the relative isolation of the North that it's not like the Riverlands or points south where you can find a mix of people of varying allegiances if you just look long enough. Sure, he's desperate for his grand victory not to amount to nothing in the wake of Asha abandoning him, but he's just latching onto anything and everything here without taking even two seconds to consider whether it makes any sense. His biggest concern is that Reek won't come back at all.

Edited April 2, 2016 by nodorothyparker

Lady S. · April 2, 2016

Thinking of how Theon also hurt himself by letting his men kill a man with a valuable trade, wouldn't drowning Septon Chayle in a well contaminate their drinking water or should we assume Winterfell has multiple wells? The ironborn are stupid enough to like drinking salt water so I wouldn't put it past them to drink corpse water too.

Edited April 2, 2016 by Lady S.

Avaleigh · April 2, 2016

One thing that I'm struck by is that Theon is feeling guilt about the crimes he's committed and in a way it makes the bad decisions that he continues to make even more frustrating because it shows that he hasn't learned anything. He felt like shit after he killed Benfred and starts remembering when they used to hang out. He doesn't consider going back though. He remembers the good times he had with the miller's wife but it doesn't stop him from destroying her in every way. With Farlen, he remembers laughing and drinking with him but doesn't hesitate to pin murder on the guy and kill him without even bothering to find out whether or not it's true. He has such personal connections with his victims and all of them were in a position where they couldn't fight back. His murder victims include two small boys, a defenseless woman, and an old septon. Asha has him pegged correctly when she snarks on what a great warrior he supposedly is.

The worst part is that Theon doesn't want to deal with the guilt and responsibility for what he's done so he tries to convince himself that he has to do all of these horrible things when it's simply not true. He even goes so far as to blame his victims for making him do things. He's such a scumbag. I remind myself that he's going to get his sharp lesson very, very soon, but it's harder to feel sorry for him while I'm reading this book because he really is the lowest of the low.

Oh, another thing that jumped out at me in this chapter is that we got some foreshadowing of Theon's castration when he has a nightmare about it. That's something I don't remember so I'm guessing it was always in the plan for this to be a part of Theon's story.

We're basically up to the Blackwater chapters now. I recall enjoying Davos's chapter the most so we'll see if it's still the same this time around. Sansa's up next and I think that means we get our first glimpse of drunk!Cersei.

Avaleigh · April 2, 2016

Sansa V

Reports of enemy sails have reached the castle, so there's a lot of singing coming from the sept and Sansa wonders whose prayers will ultimately be heard. Tyrion asks Sansa why she isn't in Maegor's Holdfast with Cersei and all of the other highborn ladies, and Sansa explains that Joffrey wants her to see him off first.

Sansa has never seen the sept so crowded and feels as though the singing is pulling at her. She lights a candle at the altar of each of the Seven and joins in with others to sing a hymn to the Mother. She thinks about her siblings as she sings various hymns and basically prays for everyone save Joffrey and Cersei. She even sings for Tyrion and for the Hound. She also prays for the gods to 'gentle the rage' inside of the Hound.

When the septon calls for the gods to protect King Joffrey, she hopes that Joffrey's sword breaks and that his shield shatters. She hopes that all of his courage leaves him and prays that he'll be deserted.

When Sansa leaves the sept, she can already hear the sounds of the battle and the cries of dying men.

On her way over to Maegor's Holdfast she runs into the Stokeworths. Lollys is having a crying fit because she's too scared to cross the drawbridge. Lady Tanda is embarrassed when Sansa offers to see if she can be of any help and Sansa notices that Shae is looking at Lollys as though she'd like nothing more than to push her into the moat so that she can fall onto an iron spike. Sansa speaks to Lollys gently and tells her that they're going to be three times as protected inside of the holdfast, but Lollys is still whining about how she doesn't want to go. Falyse seems just as frustrated as Shae, but together the two of them eventually manage to drag Lollys across.

Inside the Queen's Ballroom, Sansa has the 'honor' of having the seat on Cersei's right. Sansa is unsettled to see that Ser Ilyn Payne is there and asks Osfryd Kettleblack why Payne is in attendance. Osfryd replies that the Queen thinks that Payne will be needed before the night is over. Sansa wonders whose head Cersei will want.

Cersei asks Sansa if she's still bleeding and comments on it being rather appropriate that she's bleeding while the men bleed outside. Sansa asks Cersei why Ser Ilyn is there and Cersei claims that he's there to protect them. She tells Sansa that she might be glad to have Ser Ilyn there and Sansa thinks to herself that she'd rather have the Hound since she believes that he would never allow her to come to harm. She asks if the guards won't be able to protect them and Cersei responds by asking Sansa who will protect them from the guards.

The queen gave Osfryd a sideways look. “Loyal sellswords are rare as virgin whores. If the battle is lost my guards will trip on those crimson cloaks in their haste to rip them off. They’ll steal what they can and flee, along with the serving men, washer women, and stableboys, all out to save their own worthless hides. Do you have any notion what happens when a city is sacked, Sansa? No, you wouldn’t, would you? All you know of life you learned from singers, and there’s such a dearth of good sacking songs.”

Sansa says that "true knights" don't go around harming women and children but immediately realizes how hollow her words sound. Cersei seems amused by how naive Sansa sounds and tells her to eat her dinner like a good girl while she waits for someone like Prince Aemon the Dragonknight or Symeon Star-Eyes to rescue her.

Avaleigh · April 3, 2016

I will say that I think brief moment between Sansa and Tyrion is much better on the show. In the show she basically implies to Tyrion that she's praying for his death along with Joffrey's.

I liked seeing Sansa attempt to be kind to Lollys. Falyse gives me the vibe of being like one of Cinderella's stepsisters. I did kind of lol that she and Shae are on the same page when it comes to Lollys.

I liked the detail of the sellsword sitting while on guard duty as opposed to standing like he should be.

Sansa thinks about the Hound a lot.

nodorothyparker · April 3, 2016

I'm a little disappointed Cersei's wearing her usual excess and not the too silly for words strapless metal breastplate she was wearing on the show. I do get a kick out of her line bemoaning the "dearth of good sacking songs."

Mandon Moore gets prominent placement riding next to Tyrion heading out. Joffrey is his usual assy self and just as cocky and full of empty bravado as you would expect a 13-year-old who's never gone into battle to be. Sansa's prayer to gentle the Hound's rage caught my attention too. It makes me feel a little bad for her that she completely misses why Illyn Payne is there.

Man, it sucks to Lollys. She was gang raped "half a hundred times" as the story nauseatingly points out over and over, the subsequent resulting pregnancy is the subject of endless amused court gossip, and even the women of her own household have absolutely no patience or understanding for her likely being traumatized and terrified that it may happen all over again if the city defenses fail.

Edited April 4, 2016 by nodorothyparker

Avaleigh · April 3, 2016

I'm a little disappointed Cersei's wearing her usual excess and not the too silly for words strapless metal breastplate she was wearing on the show. I do get a kick out of her line bemoaning the "dearth of good sacking songs."

I thought that was a good line too.

I wonder if Cersei would really have had Ilyn take her head. I totally see her not having the courage to go to her death and doing something hiding or flat out trying to make a run for it like she did when she got busted by the High Septon. The show giving her the essence of nightshade seemed more in line with how she'd be willing to die. For anyone who's seen I, Claudius, I imagine her reaction to losing her head would be something like Messalina's reaction.

I was reminded of Rome too where Atia was deciding who would die first if they were taken by Pompey's men. It always amused me that she told their would be executioner that he'd have to kill himself after he's done with him because his survival would be "inappropriate". It actually kind of makes me wonder how Stannis would have treated Ser Ilyn if he'd won the battle.

Sansa's prayer to gentle the Hound's rage caught my attention too.

It's interesting too that Sansa seems fairly confident that the Hound would never hurt her considering that she ultimately chooses not to leave with him.

Lollys was being told that she's going to a safer place and she's still freaking out. I guess she's so traumatized that she's incapable of thinking logically on top of already being "dim-witted" whatever that means.

I have to say that I prefer show!Lollys just being a superficial airhead. I thought her scene with Bronn was cute.

benteen · April 3, 2016

I prefer the change in Lollys's character and storyline for the show. A case of D and D exercising rare restraint and good judgment.

I remember reading before they committed to filming the Blackwater battle, one of the ideas they had was to show Sansa and Cersei together during this season with them getting updates for the battle. Though the Sansa/Cersei scenes are strong, I'm glad we got the battle as well as the scenes between the two.

And funny too. Was this the chapter where Cersei telling Sansa that she would have a better chance trying to seduce Stannis's horse than Stannis himself? That line was always a favorite of mine.

Avaleigh · April 3, 2016

I think that line is in the next Sansa chapter because Cersei isn't drunk yet the way that I was expecting her to be.

Lady S. · April 3, 2016

He doesn't consider going back though. He remembers the good times he had with the miller's wife but it doesn't stop him from destroying her in every way. With Farlen, he remembers laughing and drinking with him but doesn't hesitate to pin murder on the guy and kill him without even bothering to find out whether or not it's true.

Farlen's death is even worse than that. He knows Farlen was innocent, the ironborn killed were those few with Theon at the mill. He and Ramsay got rid of them to keep the boys' identities secret. That's why he thinks about the ironborn inability to hold their tongues as well as someone still having to pay for their deaths when he tries to convince himself he had no choice about Farlen's murder, and why he thinks he should have killed "Reek" after "he did the others" if not for Reek's inexplicable literacy. (This was something which confused me at first too.)

Onto Blackwater, woo!

So, Joffrey's really into the sword as phallus symbol, huh? Sansa's got him pegged now as a stupid little boy.

I don't think Sansa's heard about Bran's and Rickon's alleged deaths yet, if she can casually compare a little boy to Rickon without being hurt by the memory of her lost baby brother.

As for the prayer, I just want to want to point out Jon "her bastard brother" (Which is either weirdly passive-aggressive or a sign she doesn't realize how insensitive that is, because who insults someone while praying for him), but includes right at the top with her other siblings. She doesn't name all family members, not Benjen or Lysa or the Blackfish, but she lists Jon with her immediate family, before Hoster and Edmure and before Jeyne Poole and the other Winterfellians who she was close to growing up.

It's interesting too that Sansa seems fairly confident that the Hound would never hurt her considering that she ultimately chooses not to leave with him.

You're thinking of the show scene. He doesn't really give her much choice in the book. But Sandor did protect her more than once, so she's got a good read on him to know he would be more use than Ilyn Payne or Dontos, and to recognize that he's not a monster like Joffrey so much as a deeply troubled man with very serious rage issues. I also liked her praying for Tyrion since it kinda debunks the frequent criticism that she didn't appreciate his standing up to Joffrey for her and didn't care that he was far better to her than the other Lannisters, she just has no reason to trust him too much because he's still a Lannister fighting for Joffrey.

Cersei's ballroom in Maegor's Holdfast sounds a lot nicer than the room they were in on the show, which looked like a storeroom with bunkbeds.

Avaleigh · April 4, 2016

Ooh, I totally didn't get that about Theon and Ramsay being the ones responsible for the deaths of the ironborn. I thought the castle was trying to pick them off but this makes way more sense. Thank you for the clarification. I can't get over how many horrible things Theon does in this book.

Regarding Sansa's thoughts about Jon, I think she probably doesn't realize how insensitive it sounds. She's the only one of the siblings who seems somewhat hung up on Jon's bastard status especially in the first book. I think of her saying how Jon's just jealous because he's a bastard and it irritating Arya. She seems to feel sorry for Jon in the early days so I don't think the bastard comments are coming from a bad place. She doesn't seem to really get the sting of the word until she finds herself playing Alayne. I liked seeing the pity she has for Jon turn to empathy once she starts going by Alayne and that's something the show unfortunately isn't going to be able to explore.

nodorothyparker · April 4, 2016

Considering that this world goes so far as to designate easily identifiable surnames for bastard children to make sure everybody and their dog knows they are in fact a bastard offspring, I can't even see Sansa being insensitive on that one as much as just being matter of fact. It probably wouldn't occur to her at this point in the story to think of him any differently because it's always been talked about openly in her family. There is a very clear distinction made between her "bastard brother" and her trueborn siblings.

Avaleigh · April 4, 2016

Davos III

Warhorns are blowing and the water is rough and choppy as Davos enters Blackwater Bay on Black Betha. Stannis is riding with his army, so the command of the fleet has been given to Ser Imry Florent. Davos and his sons are assigned a place in the second line of battle and his son Allard comments on how they've been given a place of honor. Davos says it's more like they've been given a place of peril and realizes that his sons think he's acting like an old woman.

Davos thinks of himself as a smuggler at heart and is nervous about going into this kind of battle for the first time. He notices Ser Imry's lack of caution and suggests to him that they send a few of their fastest ships upriver so that they can learn some idea of what they'll be dealing with rather than smashing in on full speed. Ser Imry listens to what Davos has to say but Davos can tell that Imry is annoyed with him for daring to make the suggestion.

Ser Imry doesn't see the need for caution because they have four times as many ships as the other side. Part of the reason Ser Imry is being so hasty is because it's taken them longer to arrive than they anticipated and Stannis has been waiting on them for days wondering where the hell his fleet is.

Two days ago the fleet captured a few fishing skiffs. The captives are questioned about the defenses in King's Landing and they mention that 'the Imp' is building a kind of boom to close off the mouth of the river. The captives don't know if the boom has been completed or not.

Davos thinks that they're fools to meet the enemy on the Blackwater and notes that the river current is in favor of the Lannisters. He closes his hand around the pouch that carries his finger bones and gives a silent prayer.

Salladhor Saan has been assigned to the rear guard and Davos thinks that he's being wasted there. Ser Imry doesn't trust Saan anymore than Stannis does, plus Saan has been doing a lot of complaining about the money that he's owed.

Davos doesn't see any sign of the boom at first and the river appears to be open, but then he catches sight of the new stone towers at the mouth of the river and eventually notices the chain boom. He wonders why the river hasn't been closed against them.

The warhorns sound again and the enemy is before them. Davos shouts for battle speed and his sons give the same commands. He starts to checking out Joffrey's fleet and wonders where their best ships are like King Robert's Hammer, Lady Lyanna and Lionstar. He wonders why King Robert's Hammer isn't being used as the heart of the enemy's defense and can tell that there's some kind of trap in the air.

Pots of burning pitch are being flung from the castle and several ships are hit. Arrows are starting to come down too and Davos sees that Black Betha is well in range of being hit. He puts on his helm and the pots soon start raining down on them.

As Davos looks around at all of the fiery hearts, he thinks they should be crowned stags instead and thinks that the people would rejoice to see Robert's sigil again. He feels that a stranger's standard is only going to turn the people against them. He also can't look at the fiery heart without thinking about Melisandre and the shadow that she gave birth to.

It seems that Melisandre was sent back to Dragonstone along with Edric Storm because Stannis doesn't want anyone saying that it's Melisandre's victory and not his. Davos is happy that she isn't there and thinks that he doesn't want anything to do with the red woman or her god.

Davos sees The Hound ride up the plank onto the deck of Prayer while he cuts down anyone within reach. One of Joffrey's galleys has been split in two by Stag of the Sea and Davos calls on his bowmen to fire on Kingslander. The captain of the Kinglander is hit and Davos finds himself trying to recall the man's name.

Davos hasn't lost any of his men yet and calls for ramming speed and together with the Lady Marya, plows into the side of Lady's Shame. Lady's Shame quickly goes to pieces and dozens of men are forced into the water. He notices a flash of green and hears someone shout that the enemy is using wildfire. Ser Imry expected that they'd encounter some wildfire but doesn't think they will have to deal with much of it since there aren't many true pyromancers left who still know how to make it.

Trebuchets are starting to throw boulders and men are soon becoming engulfed by the wildfire. White Hart tries to ram Black Betha but Davos is able to minimize the impact. Davos gives the command to board the White Hart and leads the men over the rail himself. They takeover the White Hart after a short round of fighting and all of Stannis's fleet is in the river now save Salladhor Saan. Davos thinks that they should soon have control of the Blackwater and that Ser Imry will have his victory.

Matthos calls out to his father to look at the Swordfish as one of the Lannister hulks starts drifting towards it. Davos feels like his heart stops beating when he realizes that the hulk has wildfire leaking from its boards. Swordfish goes to battle speed so that it can ram the seemingly vulnerable hulk while Davos screams in vain for them to stop. Swordfish easily splits the hulk apart and shatters about a thousand jars of wildfire in the process. There's a huge explosion and Davos starts yelling at his men to row them away from the disaster.

They push free of the White Hart, seconds later there's a loud roar, and next thing Davos knows he's in the water unsure of which way is up. He thinks he's drowning for a moment and panics before finally making it to the surface. He grabs on to a piece of debris and sees that Swordfish and the hulk are completely gone. He's surrounded by dead bodies and nearly all of the ships are on fire even the enemy ships.

The current of the river is spinning Davos around and he has to kick to avoid hitting a floating patch of wildfire. He starts worrying about his sons but is unable to look for them. He thinks if he's swept out to the bay that he'll just be able to swim to shore but then he gets a look downstream and realizes with horror that the chain has finally been raised.

Where the river broadened out into Blackwater Bay, the boom stretched taut, a bare two or three feet above the water. Already a dozen galleys had crashed into it, and the current was pushing others against them. Almost all were aflame, and the rest soon would be. Davos could make out the striped hulls of Salladhor Saan’s ships beyond, but he knew he would never reach them. A wall of red-hot steel, blazing wood, and swirling green flame stretched before him. The mouth of the Blackwater Rush had turned into the mouth of hell.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Avaleigh

nodorothyparker · April 4, 2016

The names of some of the ships are interesting. I'll be the first to admit I don't know a ton about naval warfare so some of the action is a bit hard to follow, particularly if you can't remember which ships belong to who. It's also interesting to me that I never noticed until now that unlike the show Blackwater this battle is actually fought in the daytime. Fiery green explosions make for better visuals at night though.

The thing I'm most struck by is how dismissive Imry Florent and by extension Stannis and the rest of Stannis's commanders are of what they're going up against. They keep referring to the royal fleet as the "boy's toys" and seem to be operating on the premise that they're really only battling an inexperienced 13-year-old child. On some level, I suppose it makes sense. Joffrey has no Baratheon uncles to fight for him. Jaime is imprisoned and Tywin is known to be bogged down with the fighting in the Riverlands. That only leaves a dwarf uncle not known for his battle prowess and who? Clearly nobody places any value on all the non nobility fighting and dying here without a famous noble name leading them.

Still, as Davos quickly notes, this dismissiveness makes them sloppy and reluctant to thoroughly investigate before plunging in and it costs them big. There's another nice bit of classism thrown in there as well with Florent not heeding any of common born Davos's warnings and underusing pirates like Salladhor Saan who one would think might know a thing or two about naval battle.

Avaleigh · April 5, 2016

I have to say that some pretty lame people have come out of House Florent. Selyse, Alester, Axell, Imry--they all kind of suck. Easily one of my least favorite Houses.

I think it was smart that Davos thinks they should have sent a couple a fast ships ahead of them just to see what's up, but I wonder if anything they would have said would have made Imry want to try a different plan. When Davos sees the towers and sees that the chain hasn't been brought up his reaction is more like 'That's weird, I wonder what they're planning?' as opposed to it seeming like he knows for sure that they absolutely should not proceed.

One of the things that makes it so exciting from Davos's perspective is how many close calls he has in this chapter. His head is nearly split open with an axe, there are all of the burning pots, the wildfire he manages to dodge, seeing his son narrowly miss an arrow, etc. There's never a dull moment.

What's strange to me about them not using Saan is that you'd think he'd be the most expendable so why not give him a position of 'honor'.

I wonder if Mel's presence would have made the difference. Considering how the Blackwater ultimately shakes out it's kind of surprising to me that book Stannis would be willing to leave Mel at Castle Black.

I'm guessing that Imry is toast, right? I can't recall.

Lady S. · April 5, 2016

I have to say that some pretty lame people have come out of House Florent. Selyse, Alester, Axell, Imry--they all kind of suck. Easily one of my least favorite Houses.

Sam's mom sounds ok from what little he's said about her, but overall, yeah, not a great bunch.

See, I don't think Davos could have really done much better than Imry here, though. It was the sheer amount of wildfire and the way it was used that made all the difference. It was a pretty fair assumption that the pyromancers wouldn't be much help since they had no way of knowing about the recent upsurge in magic or that there were a ton of leftover pots from Aerys just lying around. Davos expects a trap but he expects one involving regular naval warfare. It never occurs to him that the chain would be used to trap all of them in. The missing ships are a false clue because those are the ones Tyrion sent to guard Myrcella, they're not lying in wait to attack the rear or whatever. And sending in some ships to scout first wouldn't have revealed the wildfire either. The towers, I think, are Stan's responsibility. He didn't do send any signal to warn his fleet or do anything more than post archers below the one on his bank. He knew about them for weeks and obviously didn't think they were a real threat, so who are his captains to disagree with their king?

Davos does even think Imry's victory was in sight right before the wildfire got them, but at a sizeable cost. Maybe they could have had an easier time of it if they somehow lured Joffrey's fleet into the bay, which is what Davos seems to want instead of being clogged together in the river. But Joff's ships were never going to leave the river because this was never going to coming down to the two rival royal fleets. The KL fleet was so much smaller that Tyrion did everything he could to avoid that. Imry probably was an arrogant asshole, guilty of valuing glory for himself and fast action above protecting the men on these ships, but once they'd committed to a river battle I don't think his tactics for winning such were all that bad. The amount and use of wildfire here actually reminds me of the shadow assassins in that no amount of caution or regular tactics in this river battle could have predicted or protected against the wildfire. Everyone was vulnerable in the river, despite their best efforts, whether they were commoners or arrogant highborns, cautious or gloryhounds, Lannister sailors or Baratheon sailors, it was mostly luck whether they survived on that river.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Lady S.

Avaleigh · April 6, 2016

Tyrion XIII

Tyrion is standing on top of the Mud Gate watching the battle progress. Half of Stannis's fleet is on fire, along with most of Joffrey's and hundreds of men are in the water drowning. He watches the destruction, listens to the screams of the men dying, and thinks that this is just as much Stannis's work as it is his. He thinks the wildfire has an eerie kind of beauty and it makes him think of dragonfire.

At least eight of Stannis's ships have landed under the city walls and are unloading men onto the shore. Stannis still has about thirty or forty galleys that weren't hit by the wildfire and Tyrion guesses that they'll be able to bring Stannis's entire host across once they gather themselves. Tyrion thinks about how Jacelyn Bywater warned him that the men of the City Watch are likely going to make a run for it if it looks like the battle is going in favor of the enemy.

Joffrey reminds Tyrion that his mother said that he'd be allowed to play with the trebuchets, so Tyrion tells him now is as good a time as any to fling the Antler Men over to Stannis. Joffrey runs off happily to do this and Tyrion gives instructions to Ser Osmund to keep the king there and to keep him safe. He thinks about how he's protecting Joffrey as best as he can and hopes that Cersei is doing the same for Alayaya.

Tyrion is soon informed that men are on the tourney grounds and they're bringing a ram up to the King's Gate. Tyrion heads over to the King's Gate and tells the men to form up. He asks who has the command and announces that they're about to head out. The Hound says that he isn't going back out there and informs Tyrion that half of their men are either killed or hurt. He starts to talk about the wildfire and the screaming from the men and horses, and Tyrion asks him if he thinks they hired him to fight in a tourney.

Tyrion is shocked when he realizes that the Hound is afraid, and the Hound insists that he isn't leading any more men out into the fire. Mandon Moore tells Sandor that he's being commanded by the King's Hand, but the Hound makes it clear that he's done and doesn't give a shit anymore. He yells for somebody to bring him wine.

After seeing that there are no other appropriate candidates, Tyrion feels he has no choice but to lead the sortie himself. The Hound laughs at this and Tyrion sees the disbelief on everyone's faces. Only about twenty men respond when Tyrion commands them to form up, so he asks them what it says about them if they have less courage than someone who is said to be half a man. This comment shames more of the men into joining him and he thinks about how he's successfully trapped them into fighting.

“You won’t hear me shout out Joffrey’s name,” he told them. “You won’t hear me yell for Casterly Rock either. This is your city Stannis means to sack, and that’s your gate he’s bringing down. So come with me and kill the son of a bitch!” Tyrion unsheathed his axe, wheeled the stallion around, and trotted toward the sally port. He thought they were following, but never dared to look.

Lady S. · April 6, 2016

Tyrion XIII

Tyrion is standing on top of the Mud Gate watching the battle progress. Half of Stannis's fleet is on fire, along with most of Joffrey's and hundreds of men are in the water drowning. He watches the destruction, listens to the screams of the men dying, and thinks that this is just as much Stannis's work as it is his. He thinks the wildfire has an eerie kind of beauty and it makes him think of dragonfire.

I'm sure you think the Field of Fire reference is a clue, but I think that would be a natural comparison for anyone. I have to inwardly shake my head at Tyrion thinking Stannis is to blame for his own men and Joffrey's burning alive.

vibeology · April 6, 2016

I get what Tyrion means by that though. Stannis is the one who went to war against the recognized King (even though Joffrey is a product of twincest) and he's the one attacking the city. Stannis sent men into battle knowing they'd meet resistance and knowing they'd die. The use of the Wildfire is on Tyrion, but if it wasn't that it would have been something else. Stannis could have easily gone along with team Joffrey, positioned himself to be regent, since he's the boy's uncle and a Baratheon and found a more peaceful way to expose the incest and take over (Richard III style) but instead he went with the "honourable" war option and the cost of that choice is the lives of so many.

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