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The Official Re-Read of Book 1: A Game Of Thrones


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SUMMARY

PROLOGUE

Three men of the Night's Watch are going after a band of wildlings. One of the men (Will) tells the other two that the wildlings they are tracking are dead. The seasoned veteran of the trio, Gared, is eager to return to the Wall and points out that Mormont only said that they should track them and that they've fulfilled this obligation. The commander of the men is an arrogant young man named Ser Waymar Royce and he wants to know how the wildlings were killed. Will says that there were eight bodies and that he didn't see any blood but they definitely looked dead because they didn't move at all. Gared theorizes that the wildlings died from the extremely cold weather. Royce correctly points out that while it's cold it's not that cold because the Wall was "weeping" so the weather couldn't have been what killed them. Royce commands that they will go to the spot where Will saw the dead wildlings. Gared and Will both feel like it's a bad idea but know they have no choice other than to obey their commander.

Just as they get near the place where they'll have to descend from their horses to make it the rest of the way on foot both Gared and Will begin to feel that something isn't right.

A cold wind whispered through the trees. His great sable cloak stirred behind like something half-alive.
“There’s something wrong here,” Gared muttered.
The young knight gave him a disdainful smile. “Is there?”
“Can’t you feel it?” Gared asked. “Listen to the darkness.”
Will could feel it. Four years in the Night’s Watch, and he had never been so afraid. What was it?

Royce still isn't getting it though so he jumps off of his horse anyway and tries to make it seem like Gared is being a wuss. Royce then makes the genius decision to forbid Gared from building a fire even after Gared points out that a fire can keep away certain dangers found north of the Wall. For a moment it seems like Gared is tempted to kick Royce's ass but the moment passes and Gared agrees that he won't build a fire. Will then leads Royce to where he saw the wildling bodies and is stunned (and more than a little freaked out) when he sees that the bodies are gone. The weapons the wildlings had used are still there on the ground but the bodies are no longer in evidence.

Royce still isn't getting it though so he's loud, he makes himself visible to whoever could be watching, and he's almost treating the experience like it's a joke. He then forces Will out of his hiding spot and tells him to climb a tree to look for fires. Royce clearly believes that Will was mistaken and that the wildlings weren't actually dead. Will does as he's told and climbs the tree. Will is praying at this point but he's not sure why, he only knows that he's scared shitless.

While Will is in the tree he hears Royce call out as though he hears someone nearby. Royce doesn't sound cocky and confident anymore. He sounds uneasy. Will looks down and sees pale figures gliding through the woods. Will wants to warn Royce but is too scared to speak. He then sort of hopes that he was wrong and actually tries to tell himself that maybe it was a bird or something. At this point Royce calls up to Will and asks him if he sees anything. He's on his guard, sword out, and he wants to know why it's so crazy cold all of a sudden. It's our first appearance of an Other! The description is worth quoting:

A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took.
 

Royce gets it now and is scared but to his credit he's actually pretty brave here considering that he's an eighteen year old kid who has never seen a battle. Okay, his voice "cracks like a boy's" at one point as he tells the Other not to come any closer but apart from that Royce tries hard to fight and Will observes that in this moment Royce has truly become a man of the Night's Watch.

Will notices more Others beginning to appear but he still can't bring himself to call out to Royce. The cold that comes with the Others continues to be emphasized.

Royce fights the Other off for a short while and is then struck with the Other's blade somewhere beneath his arm. At this point the Other speaks in his crackling ice language and even though Will can't understand what's being said he gets the impression that the Other is mocking Royce. Royce goes in for one last attack shouting "For Robert!" and this time when his blade meets that of the Other's it completely shatters bringing a shrieking Royce down to his knees as he covers his eyes with his hands; there's blood between his fingers. Now that Royce is disarmed, the other Others move in to butcher him with their superior weapons. Will observes that their laughter is as "sharp as icicles".

Will stays in the tree for a long time. When he finally has the nerve to look down again it appears as though the Others have gone so he decides to climb back to the ground. He sees Royce's dead body lying facedown in the snow. Will grabs Royce's shattered sword and thinks that it'll be proof as to what he witnessed. He's eager to show it to Gared and hopefully Mormont and is about to run back. Just as he rises to go he sees a wightified version of Royce standing right before him. Royce's face is in ruins and the eye that is open is now electric blue when before it had been grey. Will is overcome with fear and immediately drops the shattered sword. The scene closes with wight!Royce's icy cold hand tightening around Will's neck.

Edited by Avaleigh
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As far as my impressions of the chapter I think I have a new appreciation for how chilling the opening sequence is. Royce is basically like an idiot teen from a scary movie who's going to investigate the strange noise in the basement. They even split up with Gared staying behind, lol. 

 

I wonder why it seems to take a while for people to turn into wights? On the show we see that it only takes a moment for Craster's kid to be changed into an Other but with wights it seems to take a bit more time. 

 

What a jerk Royce was to tell Gared to dress more warmly as he flashes his expensive clothes at him. I'm almost surprised that a man like him would even be interested in joining the Night's Watch. 

 

Another thing that popped out at me during the prologue are the first family names that we're introduced to. Mormont, Royce, and Mallister. Not one of the big eight. 

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I'm on a study trip abroad right now so I'm not able to write any long analysis. Maybe when I come back if we haven't moved on to the next chapter by then.

I wanted to have some questions in mind to guide my rereading so i decided that for each chapter i will pick:

-Favorite thing about that chapter.

-A prediction for the future of the series.

-A what-if-scenario.

So for this one.

Favorite thing: Gared's ears being amputated due to frost bite. I just think that establishes very well the extreme conditions at the wall and how much of a veteran ranger Gared is which makes it more threatening that he's afraid.

Prediction: Based on the books i would predict that the others have some kind of understandable reasons for what they're doing but judging by that original manuscript that doesn't seem to be the case. So I'm instead going with that the others are kinda like a force of nature who don't really have any personal motivations for wanting to get across the wall.

What-if: Any of these guys would have survived? Would that have made any difference to the story? Probably not. They'd just be three more members at the wall who'd probably die at some point.

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As far as my impressions of the chapter I think I have a new appreciation for how chilling the opening sequence is. Royce is basically like an idiot teen from a scary movie who's going to investigate the strange noise in the basement. They even split up with Gared staying behind, lol. 

 

I wonder why it seems to take a while for people to turn into wights? On the show we see that it only takes a moment for Craster's kid to be changed into an Other but with wights it seems to take a bit more time. 

 

What a jerk Royce was to tell Gared to dress more warmly as he flashes his expensive clothes at him. I'm almost surprised that a man like him would even be interested in joining the Night's Watch. 

 

Another thing that popped out at me during the prologue are the first family names that we're introduced to. Mormont, Royce, and Mallister. Not one of the big eight. 

 

Question: Should we spoiler tag things that happen in later books or later on in this book? I've done so in this post just in case.

 

Very interesting points.

 

In regards to turning corpses into wights and children into Others. Ser Waymar turns fairly quickly it seems, and yet the wildlings took a while, especially if it's presumed that Will watched them. It could easily be that someone killed by an Other will turn fairly quickly, but someone who dies from the cold might take longer. As to the show and Craster's child, he is directly touched by the crowned Other, so perhaps a touch from him will turn a child faster than a touch from another Other.

 

As for Ser Waymar himself, he's the third child of Bronze Yohn Royce of Runestone, and is therefore pretty unlikely to inherit anything of note. A second child might hope for a keep and land, even a decent marriage, but the third is commonly left in the cold (pun not intended.) Spoiler for ACOK

Even Bronze Yohn's second son Robar, doesn't expect much of an inheritance as we see he very readily agrees to join Renly's Rainbow Guard in ACOK. So Waymar can't expect much of anything

 

Another point is that the Royces seem preoccupied with glory, Waymar is not willing to let his first ranging end in failure, he demands the honor of command as his right of being a knight. Glory is available in the Night's Watch, and it wouldn't be ridiculous of him to harbor dreams of being Lord Commander. We later find out that Bronze Yohn is an accomplished tourney knight, another mark of a glory seeker. Spoiler for ACOK

Just as we see Robar is preoccupied with glory and making his own name as he attaches himself to Renly's claim.

Edited by Maximum Taco
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Question: Should we spoiler tag things that happen in later books or later on in this book? I've done so in this post just in case.

I think that is for the best yes, as some may be on a first read who join. Thanks for bringing it to everyone's attention.

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Question: Should we spoiler tag things that happen in later books or later on in this book? I've done so in this post just in case

 

I think that is for the best yes, as some may be on a first read who join. Thanks for bringing it to everyone's attention.

Is that

Yes, spoiler tag things that happen in later books, or

Yes, spoiler tag things that happen later in this book (Book 1, Game of Thrones), or

Both

Since this thread is Book 1, Game of Thrones, I presume we don't have to spoiler tag anything that occurs in it, but I want to be sure.

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Is that

Yes, spoiler tag things that happen in later books, or

Yes, spoiler tag things that happen later in this book (Book 1, Game of Thrones), or

Both

Since this thread is Book 1, Game of Thrones, I presume we don't have to spoiler tag anything that occurs in it, but I want to be sure.

 

For clarity I will add a pinned post.

 

Update: Please see the pinned post. 

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This is the topic for an official re-read of ASOIAF Book 1: A Game of Thrones.

 

Please only discuss Book 1 chapters in this topic. As the nature of this topic has changed by request, spoiler tags are no longer necessary.

 

Thank you!

 

Chapters:

Edited by SilverStormm
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As far as my impressions of the chapter I think I have a new appreciation for how chilling the opening sequence is. Royce is basically like an idiot teen from a scary movie who's going to investigate the strange noise in the basement. They even split up with Gared staying behind, lol.

Royce was an ass, but to be fair, it's his job to investigate the strange noise in the basement and not just run. Orders from the Lord Commander, the First Ranger, etc can't be expected to cover every contingency, though there may be standing supplemental orders to investigate anything unusual. A group of dead wildlings when the weather is too warm to kill them bears investigation (at least, in my opinion).

Unfortunately for everyone involved, it was more than they could handle.

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One thing I'm wondering about is if it takes some kind of ritual to make corpses into wights or its just enough for others to be near them for it to happen. Like could someone who died inside a castle come back to life if others where outside? And in a battle against others would all those killed automatically become wights and start fighting for the other side? It seems that could be an important question in the future.

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I'm curious if there's any ritual that's needed too and that maybe that has something to do with the time it takes to get the dead to turn. 

 

In the show it seemed like there was a pattern made on the ground in the overhead shots but there wasn't any mention of this in the prologue so I figured that was just a style choice.

 

As for whether or not a person can be turned if they're in a castle or something, I'm inclined to think that there isn't any risk of that only because wouldn't there be emphasis about burning the dead quickly just in case. Would families even want to have crypts and all that if this was ever a danger even if it has been thousands of years since the Others were last seen? 

 

Actually, now I'm wondering

do the other Northern families have crypts where they keep their dead? Are the dead typically buried in the North as far as the smallfolk? Wouldn't the Others be able to raise these dead people as well? Is there an expiration date as far as turning dead bodies?

 

I'm just thinking if there's no expiration date then theoretically the Others could turn any dead body into a wight. Sure, some remains are going to be sturdier and better to use than others but that could still give them a significant boost in numbers. I know the wildlings burn their dead but I can't recall any mention of burning the dead being an absolute part of Northern culture. (I admit I might very well be forgetting and will be happy if someone corrects me here.)

 

This actually raises another question for me. I want to say that Targaryen royals are buried in the Sept of Baelor. Another part of me also feels like I recall reading something either about the Targaryens burning their dead or possibly Valyrians having a tradition of burning their dead. The Dothraki do too. Isn't it interesting that the Northerners wouldn't have the tradition of burning the dead considering how they like to keep to the old ways as much as possible? Considering what a big deal the Long Night was you'd think that this would have been a tradition that stuck but for whatever reason it didn't unless I'm not remembering the references.

 

The Tullys burn their dead too now that I think about it. Do we know if the ironborn do? I'm thinking about victarion's sacrifice to the drowned god where he burned all of those girls as opposed to just letting them drown.

 

This is why I'm glad to do this reread. So many new things that I'm noticing or thinking about. 

 

I was going to read and post a summary for the first chapter later. I figure we should at least try to get through two a week or so if we want to finish this book before the year is over. 

Edited by Avaleigh
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SUMMARY 

 

BRAN I

 

The end of a summer that has so far extended for nine years seems near. The point of view is from seven year old Bran Stark who is traveling with a small party of men including his father and brothers. They are riding to see the king's justice done and Bran's all excited because he's never been allowed to go before.

 

We get a mention of Mance The-King-Beyond-the-Wall and this is because Bran's brother Robb initially thinks that the man who is going to meet the king's justice is a wildling. Bran thinks about the stories that Old Nan has told him and believes that the wildlings are a cruel and bloodthirsty people.

The wildlings were cruel men, she said, slavers and slayers and thieves. They consorted with giants and ghouls, stole girl children in the dead of night, and drank blood from polished horns. And their women lay with the Others in the Long Night to sire terrible half-human children.

 

The description of the man facing the king's justice makes it clear that the man is Gared one of the brothers of the Night's Watch. Gared says nothing after he is sentenced to die by Bran's father Lord Eddard Stark of Winterfell. Eddard's nineteen year old ward Theon Greyjoy brings him the greatsword called "Ice" an impressive Valyrian blade which Bran notes is taller than his elder brother Robb. With Ice Gared is swiftly beheaded by Bran's father. Bran's bastard brother Jon Snow is with Bran during all of this and advises his younger brother not to look away during the execution or "Father will know." Bran does not look away and wants to make it seem like this isn't all new to him in an effort to not seem so childish in front of his brothers. As Gared's head rolls onto the ground it bounces near Theon who laughs and takes the opportunity to kick the head away like a ball. Jon at least tells Theon that he's an ass here but he seems to be the only one who notices.

 

Jon is fourteen years old and he tells Bran that Bran did a good job witnessing the King's justice. The party is riding back to Winterfell at this point and Bran is doing his best to keep up with his brothers. Robb says that the deserter of the Night's Watch died bravely and goes on to say that the man had courage. Jon disagrees and says that the man was full of fear and essentially died because of it. Robb's basically like 'Whatever, all I'm saying is the guy died well. Race you to the bridge!' Jon and Robb begin to race and Bran notes earlier that Robb is fair, graceful, and quick while Jon is strong and fast.

 

Bran can't keep up with Jon and Robb so he falls back with the rest of the party and starts having a conversation with his father. Bran asks Eddard the question: Can a man still be brave even if he's afraid? Eddard replies that this is the only time a man can be brave and wants to know if Bran understands why he just had to execute that man. Eddard explains to Bran that the man was a deserter of the Night's Watch and that this makes him an oathbreaker. He goes on to tell Bran that no man is more dangerous than a man who knows his life is forfeit and says men like this will consequently not flinch from any crime no matter how vile.

 

Eddard then again asks Bran why he needed to execute the man and clarifies that he's asking Bran why it's important for him to have been the one to perform the execution even though King Robert has an official headsman. Eddard says that Starks are descendants of the First Men and that these are the old ways of the First Men. They believe that the man who passes the sentence should be the man to swing the sword. Eddard says that if you cannot bear to look a man in the eyes and hear his final words then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.

“One day, Bran, you will be Robb’s bannerman, holding a keep of your own for your brother and your king, and justice will fall to you. When that day comes, you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must you look away. A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is.”

 

At this point the conversation between Bran and his father ends because Jon starts shouting to them that Robb has found something. Eddard's Captain of the Guard Jory Cassel rides up to see if there's any trouble and the rest of the party go to meet up with Robb and Jon.

 

Robb seems excited and is holding a bundle in his arms. Theon wants to know what the dead animal is lying on the ground and Jon correctly sees that it's a direwolf. Bran and everyone else are shocked at the size of the direwolf and Bran notes that it's larger than his pony and twice the size of the largest hound in his father's kennel. Theon claims that there has not been a direwolf seen south of The Wall in over two hundred years.

 

Bran approaches Robb to see what's in the bundle and is delighted to see a grey black direwolf pup. Bran pets it and then Jon gives Bran his own pup. Bran hugs the pup to his chest and there seems to be an instant bond.

 

Hullen, the master of horse, seems to think it's a bad omen to see direwolves in the realm after an absence of so many years. Jory agrees that it's a sign. Eddard almost seems inclined to shrug it off but it's clear that he's troubled and this feeling is sort of compounded once it is discovered that the direwolf was killed from the antlers of a stag. Hullen, Theon, and a couple of the other men seem to think that the pups are living on borrowed time and Theon tells Bran to give him the pup he's holding so that he can kill it. Bran is horrified at the idea and insists that the pup is his. Robb tells Theon to put his sword away and says to the party that they're going to keep the pups. Hullen and others continue to make comments to indicate that they don't think it's a good idea and even Eddard seems to think that it'll be better to kill the pups now rather than having them get a hard death of cold and starvation.

 

Robb and Bran continue to protest and Bran is close to tears once he realizes that his father seems to be leaning towards the opinion of Hullen and the others.

 

It is here that Jon decides to speak up. He tells Eddard that the sigil for House Stark is a direwolf and that it must significant that there are five direwolf pups and five Stark Children with the sex corresponding to the kids as well--three male, two female. Everyone present seems to agree that this is some sort of sign and Bran is grateful to Jon for eliminating himself when he was counting the number of Stark children in order to make his point.

 

Eddard tells Robb and Bran that they're going to have to take care of the direwolves themselves if they want to keep them and that they aren't to bother the servants about feeding them and all that. He also insists that they'll have to train their direwolves themselves and emphasizes that the direwolves will be capable of great strength one day and so they'll have to be properly trained if they aren't going to be menaces to society.

 

Robb and Bran both agree that they still want to care for their pups and so Eddard agrees that they're allowed to keep them. Jory and Desmond gather up the other pups and the party get ready to head back to Winterfell. Just as they're leaving, Jon hears something and stops. He hears the noise again and goes back to near where they found the other pups. Jon comes back to the group smiling with a white pup in his arms. Bran notes that this pup's eyes are open whereas the eyes of the other five grey pups are all still closed. Theon laughs and says that the white pup is Albino that will probably die faster than the others. Jon glares at Theon and tells him that he disagrees and says that this pup will belong to him.

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Would it be helpful if I were to link each chapter discussion in the pinned post (see examples above)? That way, in the future, you would be able to find any particular chapter discussion again easily without having to scroll through the topic.

 

If you guys like that idea I will keep doing it, otherwise I'll leave you alone to carry on merrily.

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The morning had dawned clear and cold, with a crispness that hinted at the end of summer.

In other words: Winter is comming ;)

Favorite: “Can a man still be brave if he’s afraid?” “That is the only time a man can be brave,"

Prediction: Of all the Stark kids Jon will be most successful. Because of what he said about his direwolf not dying faster than the others.

What-if: Ned had decided against taking the direwolfs?

The assassin had succeeded in killing Catelyn and Bran. Someone would have brought the knife to Ned with the news of their death. I doubt it would have affected Ned's actions because even though he would have thought it was the Lannisters he wouldn't have been able to go to Robert without proof. Maybe his grief would cause him to be more ruthless and not warn Cersei that he new about the incest.

If Catelyn is dead she can't capture Tyrion at the in so he would probably get back safely to Casterly Rock and Tywin would have no reason to get violent with the Riverland people. The war between Stark and Lannister would still happen once Ned was beheaded and I'm pretty sure Tully would join in since Lannisters had killed Cat.

Also I nearly forgot about the whole Arya Joffrey Nymeria drama. I'm pretty sure Joffrey wouldn't have killed Arya. I'll have to see once we get to that chapter if it seems like he would.

 

Because of the telltale game I took notice that the deserter was beheaded on an ironwood tree stump.

Also I never realized how much age difference there is between Theon and the other. He is 19 and Jon and Robb 14. Wouldn't it be time for him to marry soon? Since Eddard is 34 right now and Robb 14 it means he married when he was 19 or 20. Though I guess that was partly due to needing to form alliances for the war. Maybe Theon has a few more bachelor years ahead of him. What would happen when it was time for that though. Would he be sent back to the Ironislands?

 

By the way i feel like I should spoiler tag my whole post because if I was a first time reader I wouldn't want to see any of it. Could we perhaps make this thread official reread? I think that would fit better.

Edited by Holmbo
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Ned is so young! Everyone is but it's hard to think of Ned as being a thirty five year old man when I think of most guys I know around that age.

Theon was always an asshole. Interesting that he often laughing and smiling pre-Ramsay.

Robb seems like he tends to see the good in people.

I wonder who Ned would think was a suitable match for Theon, Holmbo.

Nice to see Jory again.

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SUMMARY 

 

BRAN I

 

...Eddard...wants to know if Bran understands why he just had to execute that man. Eddard explains to Bran that the man was a deserter of the Night's Watch and that this makes him an oathbreaker. He goes on to tell Bran that no man is more dangerous than a man who knows his life is forfeit and says men like this will consequently not flinch from any crime no matter how vile.

That logic always struck me as circular.

If a man deserts the Night's Watch, then the penalty is death.

If a deserter is subject to the penalty of death, then he'll do anything to escape that penalty

If the deserter will do anything to escape that penalty, then he must be executed.

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I like Silverstorm's idea of hotlinking the chapter discussion at the top.

 

I also support Holmbo's idea of doing away with the spoiler tags.  The original idea was to do a re-read, so we can discuss the events in light of what we already know, so, having to spoiler tag that defeats the original purpose of the thread as a re-read, in my opinion.

 

What does everyone else think?

 

On the chapter, I loved the first few chapters when everyone was so innocent and things were, for the most part, clear-cut.  There were rules and people followed them, and the good guys (i.e. Ned) were on top.  Sniff!

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Ned left out one of the most important facts about the Night's Watch, possibly to protect Bran, because Martin had already obviously developed the idea, and that is that most of the men sent there are there for a second chance after already committing acts that could result in their execution. So having left the Night's Watch, they are forfeiting their chance to avoid the penalty already in place for their prior crimes. Hence the penalty for desertion being death.

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Ned is so young! Everyone is but it's hard to think of Ned as being a thirty five year old man when I think of most guys I know around that age.

 

I agree. With the show it was a lot of talk about the aging up of the children and teenagers from the book but IMO the aging up of many of the adults feels just as radical to me, and probably just as necessary because it would feel very weird watching people in their 30's have teenage children. Though I guess with the harsher conditions they would probably look more like in the 40's by our standard.

Edited by Holmbo
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Indeed, living in medieval conditions I am sure someone in their 30's looked and acted much older than their 21st century counterparts. Plus people got married and started families at a much younger age probably due to having a younger average life expectancy.

 

I mean, even back in the 1940's/50's someone aged 50+ looked properly OLD...nowadays they look great! I'm thinking of normal everyday women not those who can afford lots of cosmetic surgery etc, although Nigella Lawson springs to mind as an example but I'm unsure whether she has had any work? Anyway, you get the gist. 

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Adolescence is modern construct. Men and women did marry in their teens and had kids immediately. Since they tended to fight and go to war, that added stress which would age them as well. Same with women except their stress would range from a number of other things.

Once you did live past the age of 5, you had a good chance of living a good life provided you were educated and from a good class. People generally did look older in the past because life was harder for them in some ways. There exceptions with good genes and good routines. Diane de Poitiers, King Henry II of France's mistress in the 16th century, retained her good looks well into her 50s.

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I'm curious if there's any ritual that's needed too and that maybe that has something to do with the time it takes to get the dead to turn. 

 

In the show it seemed like there was a pattern made on the ground in the overhead shots but there wasn't any mention of this in the prologue so I figured that was just a style choice.

 

As for whether or not a person can be turned if they're in a castle or something, I'm inclined to think that there isn't any risk of that only because wouldn't there be emphasis about burning the dead quickly just in case. Would families even want to have crypts and all that if this was ever a danger even if it has been thousands of years since the Others were last seen? 

 

Actually, now I'm wondering

do the other Northern families have crypts where they keep their dead? Are the dead typically buried in the North as far as the smallfolk? Wouldn't the Others be able to raise these dead people as well? Is there an expiration date as far as turning dead bodies?

 

I'm just thinking if there's no expiration date then theoretically the Others could turn any dead body into a wight. Sure, some remains are going to be sturdier and better to use than others but that could still give them a significant boost in numbers. I know the wildlings burn their dead but I can't recall any mention of burning the dead being an absolute part of Northern culture. (I admit I might very well be forgetting and will be happy if someone corrects me here.)

 

This actually raises another question for me. I want to say that Targaryen royals are buried in the Sept of Baelor. Another part of me also feels like I recall reading something either about the Targaryens burning their dead or possibly Valyrians having a tradition of burning their dead. The Dothraki do too. Isn't it interesting that the Northerners wouldn't have the tradition of burning the dead considering how they like to keep to the old ways as much as possible? Considering what a big deal the Long Night was you'd think that this would have been a tradition that stuck but for whatever reason it didn't unless I'm not remembering the references.

 

The Tullys burn their dead too now that I think about it. Do we know if the ironborn do? I'm thinking about victarion's sacrifice to the drowned god where he burned all of those girls as opposed to just letting them drown.

 

This is why I'm glad to do this reread. So many new things that I'm noticing or thinking about. 

 

I was going to read and post a summary for the first chapter later. I figure we should at least try to get through two a week or so if we want to finish this book before the year is over. 

Response to funeral rites.

For some reason, I always assumed that everyone burns their dead and then just collect the bones to be placed in the crypts or wherever. Every time I hear someone talking about getting their loved one's remains they always talk about getting their bones back so I always assumed that it was burning+tomb. I think that's why they have Robert and Tywin's bodies in the Sept for 7 days.

The Tullys: If it's all about returning to the river they kind of have to burn the body otherwise there would be a lot of contaminated waters due to rotting corpses.

For the Ironborn, I think they just throw them at sea, which they can afford to unlike people living near rivers.

Edited by fantique
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SUMMARY

 

CATELYN I

 

Eddard Stark is in the godswood of Winterfell following the execution of the man from the Night's Watch, and this is where his wife Catelyn knows that she will find him. Catelyn doesn't like the godswood herself because it seems to give her the creeps but she goes to find him there anyway because she has important news for him. 

 

Catelyn begins to think about how different the godswood in Winterfell is in comparison to the one from her ancestral home Riverrun. All great houses in Westeros have godswoods and in Riverrun, Catelyn recalls the godswood being bright and inviting, full of flowers and light, babbling brooks, singing birds--basically the ideal fairy tale forest. Meanwhile she thinks of the godswood of Winterfell as being a dark, uninviting place smelling of moist earth and decay. The gods in this place are nameless and silent.

 

We learn that Catelyn is of a different Faith than her husband Ned and out of consideration of that he had a small sept built for her where she can pray to her seven gods and keep up the traditions that have been on the Tully side of her family for many generations. Catelyn worships in the sept while Ned uses the godswood. There are names for the gods of the Faith of the Seven but the old gods have no names and this seems to unsettle Catelyn for some reason.

Catelyn finds Ned sitting in the center of the grove under a large weirwood tree polishing the greatsword Ice. The description of the tree is worth quoting:

At the center of the grove an ancient weirwood brooded over a small pool where the waters were black and cold. “The heart tree,” Ned called it. The weirwood’s bark was white as bone, its leaves dark red, like a thousand bloodstained hands. A face had been carved in the trunk of the great tree, its features long and melancholy, the deep-cut eyes red with dried sap and strangely watchful. They were old, those eyes; older than Winterfell itself. They had seen Brandon the Builder set the first stone, if the tales were true; they had watched the castle’s granite walls rise around them. It was said that the children of the forest had carved the faces in the trees during the dawn centuries before the coming of the First Men across the narrow sea.

 

We find out that weirwoods of the south of the seven kingdoms were mostly cut down or burned about a thousand years ago (save the Isle of Faces) but in the North every castle has a godswood and every godswood has a heart tree and every heart tree has a face.

 

Ned asks Catelyn where the children are and she tells him that they are in the kitchen arguing about names for the direwolf pups. She goes on to say that Arya and Sansa are in love and charmed with their pups while little three year old Rickon is "unsure" and perhaps slightly afraid. Ned doesn't have much patience for childish fears and says that Rickon needs to learn to deal because winter is coming.

 

Ned starts talking to Catelyn about his day and says that the man of the Night's Watch died bravely and Ned is glad of this for Bran's sake. Ned tells Catelyn that she would have been proud of Bran and Catelyn reminds Ned that she's "always proud of Bran". She also takes a moment to reflect on the beauty of Ice and we learn that it was forged in Valyria prior to the Doom. Ice is said to be 400 years old and its name comes from a time from when the Starks were still the Kings of the North.

 

We find out that this is the fourth man from the Night's Watch that has had to be executed this year so far. Ned says that this latest man was half mad with fear and that the Wall has been losing men in general lately both to desertion and through ranging expeditions. Catelyn wonders if this is because of the wildlings and Ned wonders who else it could be. Ned thinks that he'll have to call his bannermen to deal with the King-Beyond-the-Wall Mance Rayder. Catelyn gets a little freaked out at the idea of going Beyond the Wall so Ned tries to assure her that there's no reason to fear Mance Rayder.

 

Catelyn comments that there are "darker things" beyond the Wall but Ned tells her that she's been listening to too many of Nan's stories. Ned tells her that the Others are dead and haven't been seen for some eight thousand years. He says Maester Luwin says that the Others never lived at all and that no living man has ever seen one. Catelyn replies that until that morning no living man had seen a direwolf either. Ned comments ruefully that he ought to know better than to argue with a Tully.

 

Ned asks her what she has to tell him and she takes his hand and informs him of Jon Arryn's death. Ned takes the news hard and it is explained that Jon Arryn was like a second father to him while he was fostered at Lord Arryn's ancestral home in the Vale along with Robert Baratheon. When the mad King Aerys II Targaryen had demanded the heads of Ned and Robert, Jon Arryn protected them and raised his own banners in revolt. Ned takes comfort in Robert Baratheon writing that Jon had been given milk of the poppy and did not linger in pain for long.

 

Catelyn's sister Lysa is Jon Arryn's widow and she tells Ned that Lysa and her son Robert Arryn have returned to the Eyrie in the Vale. Catelyn wishes that they'd gone to Riverrun instead to be with the Tully family so that Lysa could be comforted by family and friends, so Ned urges Cat to go to Lysa in the Eyrie instead and to take the children with her.

 

Catelyn wishes that she could go to the Eyrie to visit with her sister but she tells him that King Robert is riding to Winterfell to see Ned and that she'll need to be there. Ned is super happy about this news and smiles at the thought of seeing Robert again after so many years. Catelyn wishes that she could be happy about all of this and share in Ned's joy but she feels like the whole thing with the direwolf being killed by the stag is a bad omen since the direwolf is on the sigil of House Stark while the stag is on the sigil of House Baratheon. Still, she doesn't rain on Ned's happy moment here and instead says that they should let Ned's brother at the Wall know about the royal visit so that he can come.

 

Ned asks about who all is coming and we find out that the queen and her children are coming in addition to the queen's brothers. Queen Cersei and her family the Lannisters aren't much loved by Ned and he grimaces at the thought of seeing them all again. The Lannisters came late to Robert's cause when "victory was all but certain" and Ned finds this to be unforgivable. Still, he's cool with dealing with the Lannisters if it means that he can see his friend Robert again.

 

Ned and Catelyn are discussing how many people will be coming and to them it feels as though half of the realm is going to be descending on their home. Ned and Robert haven't seen each other since the last time Queen Cersei gave birth to her son Prince Tommen some seven years ago. Ned thinks it'll be nice to see Robert's children again and Catelyn tells him to watch his mouth around Cersei commenting that Cersei's pride is said to grow with each passing year.

 

Ned says they'll have to have a feast and a royal hunt in honor of the King. He also continues to shake his head at how little notice Robert has given them considering all of the inconvenience that they're going to have to go to in order to accommodate the large party.

Edited by Avaleigh
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Should we go on with Cat I if no one else has anything more to add? I can write the summary if you don't want to write every time Avaleigh

 

Do you want to alternate and do every other one? I was playing the pacing by ear. I've written a recap for Daenerys I already but if you want to do that I can skip ahead to whatever is next.

I'm totally up for a faster pace btw (maybe a chapter every other day maybe until the show starts?) it just seemed like most of the suggestions seemed to favor a slower one. If you want, PM me.

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Regarding the Catelyn chapter--

 

We got some interesting history in this chapter. A mention of the Doom, a timeline on the creation of Ice, a shoutout to the period where the Starks were the Kings in the North, the backstory between Ned and Robert, the double Tully wedding, an eight thousand year timeline regarding the Others, etc. I didn't realize that the Long Night was eight thousand years ago. I think I thought it was something closer to three thousand. A long time either way but damn.

 

Ned and Catelyn are pretty sweet here in the way that they deal with each other. Catelyn especially seems very sensitive to Ned's feelings and I thought it was nice the way that she held his hand as she told him the news of Jon Arryn's death. She's also uneasy about the visit but she tries to look at the positive side in that Ned is just happy to be able to see his friend again.

 

It's interesting to me that she describes Winterfell as a "gloomy" castle. When I think of Sansa's recollections in AFFC I feel like the last word she'd use to describe Winterfell is "gloomy". 

 

The comparison between the two godswoods was interesting too because from Catelyn's perspective the godswood of Winterfell sounds like an almost sinister place and it makes me wonder if this could have anything to do with the Children. Meanwhile the godswood of Riverrun is pretty and sweet smelling and described as a place where people read or relax in the sun.

 

Lol at Cersei's the mention of Cersei's pride growing every day. It's basically the first thing we learn about her. 

 

I can't help but wonder how different things would have been if Catelyn and the kids had already started traveling to the Eyrie prior to learning about Robert's visit. What if they'd missed the party and only Ned and Robb (and Jon) had been there to entertain them with the others going to the Vale. What if Bran had never been injured and the direwolf situation had never happened? What if Robert had had the idea of Myrcella staying in the North to be betrothed to Robb? I feel like so many things might have been different if Catelyn had been able to follow through with Ned's suggestion for that family visit. 

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Ned asks Catelyn where the children are and she tells him that they are in the kitchen arguing about names for the direwolf pups. She goes on to say that Arya and Sansa are in love and charmed with their pups while little three year old Rickon is "unsure" and perhaps slightly afraid. Ned doesn't have much patience for childish fears and says that Rickon needs to learn to deal because winter is coming.

This made me snicker. I just had this image of one of the kids falling and scraping their knee and ned saying "Winter is coming" like that helps in anyway. You know that any lecture he gives to his kids has him saying that at least once.

 

I remember reading this chapter and being so surprised at how gloom and doom Cat makes Winterfell sound. I had seen some book descriptions inspired illustrations before that and of course the Heart Tree in the show is so beautiful that my first reaction was "Wait, what? Is she describing Winterfell?" Especially when we know that it is a comforting space in the mind of a lot of the other POVs and how they would give everything to go back there. I guess the big difference is that she was used to the opulence of the South and the first impression still lingers? But yeah, that was an interesting way to set the tone for not only Winterfell but also the complexity of the Catelyn character.

 

What if Cat took the kids to the Eyrie like Avaleigh says? You know what, I never even considered that. When I read it, I didn't think about how different things would've been if she did. I do understand that at that stage, there was no reason to truly fear the King's arrival but now that I'm thinking about it... Whoa, that is a game changer right there. The wheels were already set n motion by Jon Arryn's death so imagine only Ned is there when Robert arrives. He is still asked to be Hand, but there is no betrothal of Sansa to Joff? Or would they be betrothed but without her knowing him or having a crush? Would Lady still be alive? (ToT)

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Lol, fantique. I'm imagining Ned telling the kids to do their homework because Winter Is Coming. 

 

Another thing that stood out to me in this chapter is Catelyn's shudder when she thinks of life Beyond the Wall. Interesting too that she seems more willing to believe in the supernatural than Ned does. 

 

I laughed when Ned told Catelyn that she's been listening to too many of Old Nan's stories because that's pretty much what he told Bran in chapter one when Bran starts talking about wildlings. 

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Do you want to alternate and do every other one? I was playing the pacing by ear. I've written a recap for Daenerys I already but if you want to do that I can skip ahead to whatever is next.

I'm totally up for a faster pace btw (maybe a chapter every other day maybe until the show starts?) it just seemed like most of the suggestions seemed to favor a slower one. If you want, PM me.

I'd rather not write a recap I just thought it rude not to offer as I was suggesting we go to the next chapter.

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He must learn to face his fears. He will not be three forever. And winter is coming.

You hear that Rickon? Stop being such a three year old and start being a man!

I agree with you fantique that Ned probably applies winter is coming to everything with his children.

 

Another quote I want to bring up

 

 

three acres of old forest untouched for ten thousand years as the gloomy castle rose around it.

And so starts the typical for high fantasy ridiculously long time spans of things not changing. Authors don't seem to realize how long ago that really is. In my country ten thousand years ago was the end of the ice age and people where just starting to populate the land again using their stone tools. Of course GRRM could be saved by having only pov characters to relay all his information so it might be them that have gotten the time wrong.

 

Favorite thing: All the backstory. Of course we know this already now but it's still cool to see it laid out this early. Ned and Robert growing up in the Eiyre. Ned and Jon marrying the Tully sisters (a double wedding too, poor Lysa getting the short stick).

Prediction: This is not my prediction but just agreeing with a theory (are we still doing spoiler tags?

As seen with the backstory several of the major lords are connecting themselves to one another. Baratheon and Stark being fostered by the Aryn. Aryn and Stark marrying Tully. From what we've learned from the books this is not normal behavior for the major lords. Usually they want to create bonds to their bannermen to ensure their loyalty or with branches to their own house. This difference might just be something GRRM made to make sure the different characters had strong ties to one another. But I've seen theories about this being part of some conspiracy to band together as major lords and force the mad king to step down. I'm taking that as a prediction for this chapter.

*Edit I remember now that Aryn Tully wedding was probably because of the war. I don't remember if this was talked about before the start of the rebellion.

What if: Robert did not ask Ned to be hand of the king? If he went somewhere else. Would Cat had gone to Lysa with the children and would that have lead to the changes you mentioned above? Would Ned eventually have rode to aid the nightwatch? Hard to say to many unknown variables like who Robert names as hand of the king instead. There's really no strong candidate. Maybe he names Throros of Myr :D

Also I find it interesting that Ned agrees with Robb that the man died well.

 

As to the talk about the chapter pacing I could easily read much faster but maybe if we have a new chapter to often people would not have time to write on the board. We could in that case maybe do two chapters each time. I don't know what everyone else thinks.

Edited by Holmbo
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SUMMARY

 

CATELYN I

 

...Ned asks Catelyn where the children are and she tells him that they are in the kitchen arguing about names for the direwolf pups. She goes on to say that Arya and Sansa are in love and charmed with their pups while little three year old Rickon is "unsure" and perhaps slightly afraid. Ned doesn't have much patience for childish fears and says that Rickon needs to learn to deal because winter is coming.

Speaking of, before Catelyn speaks to Ned she reflects on how the Stark words "Winter is coming" still make her uneasy (or give her a chill or some such); that all (noble) families have "words" or mottoes about how courageous, honorable, truthful, etc they are; all except for the Starks; the Stark family words are the only ones that mean, in essence, life sucks.

Pretty much any time you read the phrase "winter is coming" in the book you can replace it with the phrase "Life sucks", for example,

"Ned doesn't have much patience for childish fears and says that Rickon needs to learn to deal because life sucks."

Edited by Constantinople
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You hear that Rickon? Stop being such a three year old and start being a man!

I agree with you fantique that Ned probably applies winter is coming to everything with his children.

 

Another quote I want to bring up

 

And so starts the typical for high fantasy ridiculously long time spans of things not changing. Authors don't seem to realize how long ago that really is. In my country ten thousand years ago was the end of the ice age and people where just starting to populate the land again using their stone tools. Of course GRRM could be saved by having only pov characters to relay all his information so it might be them that have gotten the time wrong.

 

Favorite thing: All the backstory. Of course we know this already now but it's still cool to see it laid out this early. Ned and Robert growing up in the Eiyre. Ned and Jon marrying the Tully sisters (a double wedding too, poor Lysa getting the short stick).

Prediction: This is not my prediction but just agreeing with a theory (are we still doing spoiler tags?

As seen with the backstory several of the major lords are connecting themselves to one another. Baratheon and Stark being fostered by the Aryn. Aryn and Stark marrying Tully. From what we've learned from the books this is not normal behavior for the major lords. Usually they want to create bonds to their bannermen to ensure their loyalty or with branches to their own house. This difference might just be something GRRM made to make sure the different characters had strong ties to one another. But I've seen theories about this being part of some conspiracy to band together as major lords and force the mad king to step down. I'm taking that as a prediction for this chapter.

*Edit I remember now that Aryn Tully wedding was probably because of the war. I don't remember if this was talked about before the start of the rebellion.

What if: Robert did not ask Ned to be hand of the king? If he went somewhere else. Would Cat had gone to Lysa with the children and would that have lead to the changes you mentioned above? Would Ned eventually have rode to aid the nightwatch? Hard to say to many unknown variables like who Robert names as hand of the king instead. There's really no strong candidate. Maybe he names Throros of Myr :D

Also I find it interesting that Ned agrees with Robb that the man died well.

 

As to the talk about the chapter pacing I could easily read much faster but maybe if we have a new chapter to often people would not have time to write on the board. We could in that case maybe do two chapters each time. I don't know what everyone else thinks.

I imagine that Robert probably would have made Jaime Hand if Ned hadn't accepted. 

 

Bran and Arya both probably would have got into a spot of trouble anyway if he'd been taken to the Eyrie and forced to play and interact with Sweetrobin. Even Little Rickon would probably have seemed like a bully to Sweetrobin from Lysa's crazy POV. 

 

When the info about Brandon and Catelyn being intended for each other that definitely raised my eyebrows and I wondered if either was let down when they realized that they'd have to make this Stark/Tully thing happen even without Brandon. 

 

I'll post Dany I in a bit unless there are any objections.

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SUMMARY

 

DAENERYS I

 

Thirteen year old Daenerys Targaryen has been given a beautiful gown as a gift from her host Magister Illyrio in whose mansion she and her brother Viserys are currently living. Dany can't remember ever owning something so nice before and wonders aloud if it's really hers. Her brother Viserys assures her that it is and that Illyrio will give her gold and jewels in order to complete the look. Viserys insists that Dany must look like a princess tonight.

 

Dany wants to know what Illyrio wants in exchange for such extravagant gifts especially given the fact that they've been living with him in his luxurious house in Pentos for half a year now. Viserys claims that Illyrio is being nice to them in order to gain favor with Viserys so that when Viserys takes back his throne Illyrio can be rewarded.

 

Dany has her doubts that it's as simple as that but she knows better than to openly question her brother, so she says nothing in response to his claims about Illyrio's motives. Dany thinks that Viserys's anger is a terrible thing to witness and when he gets in this state he calls it "waking the dragon". 

 

Viserys tells Dany to prepare herself for Khal Drogo and says that she had better not fail him tonight as far as pleasing the Khal. Viserys threatens Dany here, says that she'll wake the dragon if she fails to comply, and then twists his sister's nipple cruelly in order to emphasize the point. Dany agrees that she doesn't want to wake the dragon and will do as Viserys says.

Viserys seems to be happy now that he appears to be getting his way and claims that the historians will say that the start of his reign began on this evening.

 

Once she is left alone Dany begins to think about her life and wishes that she could just run outside and play with the other children instead of having to get ready to dine with the Khal later. She thinks about Westeros and her family's connection to the land. Viserys was only eight and Dany was in utero when they were forced to flee from King's Landing in order to escape armies of the Usurper Robert Baratheon.

 

Dany has no memories of Westeros but Viserys has told her stories enough for her to imagine what it must have been like when her family fell from power.

...sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship’s black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King’s Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper’s dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar’s heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes. The polished skulls of the last dragons staring down sightlessly from the walls of the throne room while the Kingslayer opened Father’s throat with a golden sword.

 

We find out that Dany was born on Dragonstone some nine months after her mother and Viserys' flight from King's Landing. As Dany is born there is a terrible summer storm that smashes the remains of the Targaryen fleet. Viserys and Daenerys's mother dies giving birth to Dany and Viserys has never been able to forgive Dany for this. Dany has no memories of Dragonstone because she and Viserys are soon forced to run for their lives once again. Ser Willem Darry and four other men loyal to House Targaryen save the kids and sail over to the relative safety of the free city of Braavos.

 

The Targaryen children live with Ser Willem Darry in a house in Braavos for a few years until Ser Willem's death. Shortly after he died, the servants stole most of their remaining money and valuables so, the two Targaryens were turned out of the house and forced to wander from place to place. At Viserys insistence they don't linger anywhere too long in case an assassin of the Usurper should find them.

 

At first the powerful and noble families of the free cities were happy to have the last two remaining members of House Targaryen come to stay at their homes. They managed to survive in this way for a time but after awhile it seems that the novelty of having the Targaryens as houseguests wore off for most people and the lives of Dany and Viserys consequently became meaner and even more uncertain. They were forced to sell their few remaining jewels and possessions including their mother's crown in order to make ends meet, and at this point they've even run out of money from the sale of those valuables. Viserys is now mocked by people as "the beggar king" but he swears that he and Dany are going to win it all back someday. Dany notes that while Viserys dreams of having back their powerful place in Westeros, that she would be content if she could just return to the house with the red door that she'd lived in with her brother and Ser Willem.

 

Two servants come into Dany's room to help her start to get ready for the evening and she gets into a scalding hot bath. The heat isn't too much for Dany however and she thinks about how Viserys has told her that the fire is in their blood and he often says that it is never too hot for a Targaryen. As she's being bathed one of the servants is going on about how rich, handsome, and powerful Khal Drogo is. Dany doesn't seem all that impressed and thinks to herself that she always assumed that she would marry Viserys when she came of age.

For centuries the Targaryens had married brother to sister, since Aegon the Conqueror had taken his sisters to bride. The line must be kept pure, Viserys had told her a thousand times; theirs was the kingsblood, the golden blood of old Valyria, the blood of the dragon. Dragons did not mate with the beasts of the field, and Targaryens did not mingle their blood with that of lesser men. Yet now Viserys schemed to sell her to a stranger, a barbarian.

 

The servants finish dressing Dany and even though she looks very beautiful and very much like a princess she doesn't appear to feel like one and even seems to recognize a similarity between herself and the slaves in their golden collars since she's given a Valyrian glyph covered collar of her own to wear for the occasion.

 

Illyrio compliments Dany on her appearance and says that she looks every inch a princess. Viserys is more critical saying that she's too skinny and wonders if Khal Drogo likes his women so young. Illyrio says it's going to be fine and Viserys comments that "savage" types like the Dothraki have "queer" tastes anyway. Illyrio cautions that Viserys that he probably shouldn't say shit like that in front of the Khal and Viserys gets a little annoyed asking Illyrio what sort of fool he takes him for. Illyrio apologizes but it's hinted that he probably does indeed think that Viserys just might in fact be that big of a fool.

 

Illyrio, Dany, and Viserys travel in Illyrio's palanquins to meet up with Khal Drogo and his khalasar. Viserys starts thinking about how many Dothraki men he'll need to take back the Seven Kingdoms and thinks that ten thousand men should be enough. He also comments that Houses like Greyjoy, Tyrell, Darry, Redwyne, and Martell have no love for the Usurper. Viserys even goes so far to say that the smallfolk cry out for their King and then looks to Illyrio for assurance that this is true. Illyrio tells Viserys what he wants to hear but it's also with a big and noticeable shrug of his shoulders.

 

Dany seems to pick up on Illyrio's lack of sincerity here and thinks to herself that she doesn't trust him. When Viserys starts talking about how he's going to kill Robert Baratheon himself even though he's never killed anyone before and doesn't seem to be a practiced fighter in any way, Dany catches Illyrio smirking at Viserys here. Viserys of course fails to notice and goes right on babbling about how he's going to kill Lannister too, the "Kingslayer".

The party finally arrive at the gates of Khal Drogo's nine tower manse and both Dany and Viserys seem nervous but for different reasons. One of the guards at the gates is a little brusque with them which annoys Viserys, but Illyrio basically soothes Viserys's ego here and tell him that the guards can't be too careful and it's because they're tasked with protected big and important men like His Grace. Illyrio again seems to know exactly what to say in order to keep Viserys from foaming at the mouth.

 

Viserys, Dany, and Illyrio are announced to the rest of the party and we learn Viserys' full title--Viserys of the House Targaryen, the Third of His Name, King of the Andals, and the Rhoynar, and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm. Daenerys official title at this point is--Daenaerys Stormborn Princess of Dragonstone. Illyrio is the Magister of the free city of Pentos.

 

Most of the guests present are Dothraki horselords but there are also Myrish, Pentoshi, and Tyroshi sellswords, men from Ibben, lords from the Summer Isles, and even a red priest. Dany suddenly and fearfully realizes that she is the only woman present.

 

Illyrio begins to tell Dany and Viserys about the other guests present. He points out three men who are described as being "bloodriders" to the Khal, and there is another Khal present, Khal Moro who is there with his son. Illyrio points out another man named Ser Jorah Mormont and this peaks Dany's interest because he is a knight from the Seven Kingdoms. Dany wonders what he's doing in Pentos and Illyrio explains that the Usurper wants Ser Jorah's head for the crime of selling some poachers to a Tyroshi slaver instead of sending the men to the Night's Watch at the Wall.

 

Illyrio makes it clear that he sympathizes with Jorah and thinks that it's wrong for his life to be on the line for his crimes. Viserys says that he wants to speak to Jorah before the night is over and Dany continues to watch Jorah in curiosity. Jorah is described as being over forty and balding but still strong and fit. Dany's thoughts on Jorah are interrupted as Illyrio finally point out Khal Drogo to her. Khal Drogo is about thirty and is the tallest and seemingly strongest man in the room. Drogo has a long braid that's probably about mid thigh in length and Viserys points out to Dany that the Dothraki men cut off their braids when they lose a fight so that the world will know their shame.

 

Dany thinks that Drogo's face is hard and cruel looking. She thinks to herself that even though her brother sometimes hurts her that she isn't frightened of Viserys the way that she feels frightened of Drogo. She then tells Viserys that she doesn't want to be Drogo's queen and begins to plead with him saying she just wants to go home. Viserys is immediately angry with Dany and reminds her that they can't go home and that their true home has been taken from them. Viserys pulls Dany out of sight so that they can talk with some privacy and continues to lay into her. He grabs her arm roughly and asks her again how they're supposed to be able to get home? Dany meant that she just wanted to go back to Illyrio's but knows that there's no use telling Viserys what she'd meant because he's in a mood now and he doesn't want to hear it. She tells him she doesn't know how they're going to get home and tears begin to fill her eyes.

 

Viserys says that he has a plan and that they're going to go home with an army and if it means that Dany is going to have to get into bed with a man who frightens her so be it. Viserys then adds that he'd "let" Khal Drogo's entire khalasar fuck Dany (and their horses too) if it meant that Viserys would get his army. He tells her to be grateful that she only has to worry about pleasing Khal Drogo and says that she might even learn to like him. Illyrio is bringing Drogo over to meet the two Targaryens now and Viserys hisses at Dany to not to let Drogo see her cry. To her credit, Dany actually refrains from letting a single tear fall here and manages to smile and stand up straight when Viserys prods her to do so.

Edited by Avaleigh
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As Dany is born there is a terrible summer storm that smashes the remains of the Targaryen fleet.

This is a nitpick but I'm curious--is this an error? Shouldn't Dany have been born during winter if Bran is seven and they say that summer has been in place for nine years? I wonder how long a typical winter lasts? 

 

Main things I noticed:

 

Rhaegar is still a huge presence for both Dany and Viserys. The line about Dany looking at Viserys and knowing that he was daydreaming about the Battle of the Trident again was pretty telling I thought. 

 

Illyrio is courteous enough to Viserys but looking at it now I think it's pretty clear that he thinks Viserys is a joke.

 

As for another what if scenario:

Considering the role of Aegon/Faegon I wonder what he would have done with Viserys if Viserys had decided to remain at the house and not go along with Dany and Drogo? Would Viserys have been poisoned shortly after? Would Arianne have had her marriage?

 

Illyrio seems sympathetic to Jorah. I wonder why Jorah didn't attempt to turn to him after he was dismissed from Dany. That would have at least have been a decent place to regroup and figure out his next move.

 

The connection that Dany has with slaves is acknowledged in her very first chapter. Her observation of the collars really kind of drove home the point for me that she's being set up to be sold to Drogo like a slave.

Love Dany or hate her (or somewhere in the middle) there's no denying IMO at least that she's come a long way since this first chapter.

 

Another thing I realized is that Aerys must have raped Rhaella right at the end when he knew that things were really bad.

I think I initially thought that Rhaella was far along when she'd had to flee to Dragonstone and that this was one of the reasons that she ended up having complications during the birth but she was in the earliest stages when she left with Viserys.

 

Where are all of the women? Odd detail. 

 

I wonder about the Houses Viserys singles out as not being loyal to the Usurper.

He'd have no way of knowing about the Tyrells eyeing an alliance with the Baratheons but he's probably not too far off about the willingness of the others. (I see the Redwynes as falling in line with the Tyrells though.)

I wonder if it would have been easier to sell Viserys as a conquering King looking for a bride among the the daughters of the Great Houses or if a marriage to Dany would have been thought to be a stronger message as far as the Targaryens being back. 

 

I think Catelyn's chapter has given us the best history and backstory so far. 

 

ETA:

 

I wonder why Willem Darry didn't arrange to have Viserys trained in the arts of war?

This is an area where both Joffrey and Viserys are lacking and there's little explanation for it. Even poor guys learn how to fight. And there's Joffrey with two warrior fathers and it's like what the hell happened?

Edited by Avaleigh
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One thing I always thought was a little unrealistic was that Dany and Viserys would be the only two remaining Targaryens.  Even after the Russian Revolution and the murder of the Tsar's family, there was a large Romanov diaspora living in Europe.  It would have made more sense if Dany and Viserys lived with several Targaryen uncles, aunts, and cousins, but then, that would have made their plight seem less tragic. 

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Another thing that stood out to me in this chapter is Catelyn's shudder when she thinks of life Beyond the Wall. Interesting too that she seems more willing to believe in the supernatural than Ned does. 

I've always wondered if Ned would believe more in the supernatural if he hadn't been fostered in the Vale. Is it just a result of Ned's stoic personality or the influence of Jon Arryn? Did Brandon and Lyanna believe more in these things than Ned does, and if so, was that a result of them being raised in the North or is it evidence of their supposed wolf blood? 

 

This is a nitpick but I'm curious--is this an error? Shouldn't Dany have been born during winter if Bran is seven and they say that summer has been in place for nine years? I wonder how long a typical winter lasts? 

The tourney at Harrenhal was in the year of the false spring, and that was only 2 or 3 years before Dany was born, IIRC. Since there must have still been some winter left after Harrenhal, either it's an error, or the rest of the winter and the actual spring passed quickly until it was summer again.  I think the summer and winter in between the rebellion and the current nine year summer must have been fairly short.   

 

One thing I always thought was a little unrealistic was that Dany and Viserys would be the only two remaining Targaryens. .

Well, we know they have at least one or two more relatives out there. I think the Targs are a bit of a special case because of the inbreeding, thus not having much of a branching out in their family tree, and also because at one point fairly recently in the timeline, disease, wars, and tragedy burned through so many heirs that the fourth son of a fourth son became king. With their father, brother, niece, and nephew killed in the war, and their mother dead in childbirth, that's a lot of family members to lose in a short span of time. Since their mother and father were brother and sister, they wouldn't have a separate branch of the family to look to, as the Stark children could look to the Tullys, for instance. I believe the Baratheons were their closest family at that point and they couldn't go to them for help for obvious reasons. The only other great house they bred with are the Martells, IIRC. 

 

If not for the Tully side of the family (and that's not exactly a robust family tree either, as far as we know), the Stark children are actually kind of in the same boat. Other than Benjen, there's no family for the Stark kids to look to on the paternal side. Just the distant Karstarks and someone in the Vale whose name Cat can't recall. 

 

In contrast, the Lannisters and Tyrells seem to have huge extended families and plenty of cousins and nuncles to burn through. 

Edited by InsertWordHere
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Do you really think that

Illyrio wanted Viserys to die

Avaleigh?

Aegon has the better claim after all and it might be useful having a nephew around to ensure the family line lives on.



I agree that the inbreeding makes it more realistic that the family is all alone with no allies. Though one wonder if they ever considered fleeing to Dorne since their brothers wife was from there.

 

Favorite thing: Dany, I find her really likeable in this chapter. Not just because feel for her in her terrible situation but because she seems smart and insightfull and with good instincts. I don't remember much of my impressions when reading this book for the first time but from what I recall I think I considered Dany to be the main character.

Prediction:

Dany will never get a chance to confront Jaime about him killing her father. I'm not saying that they will never meet but since us viewers already had his reasoning for killing Aerys I don't think we'll get some Dany trial for him where he has to explain himself.

What-if: Drogo had not agreed to marry Dany?

Illyrio probably would try to find someone else to wed her to for an army.

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Holmbo,

I'm unsure about what Illyrio would have done if Viserys had just decided to stay and hang out but I feel like if he had use for Viserys that he would have attempted to use him in some way and I'm not sure that he really did that. While Aegon is getting training and tutors and has protection, Viserys was pretty much left to fend for himself in comparison. What's the use of having a spare heir if he's going to be an incompetent? I think these are the main reasons why I think Illyrio is suspect.

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Do you really think that

Illyrio wanted Viserys to die

Avaleigh?

Aegon has the better claim after all and it might be useful having a nephew around to ensure the family line lives on.

We're used to thinking about primogeniture, and therefore if the eldest son (Rhaegar) dies before his father (Aerys), the eldest son's children (Aegon) take precedence over the dead man's younger brother (Viserys).

But just because primogeniture became the commonly accepted rule of succession, in effect, the "winning" rule, doesn't mean it was only rule.  In some countries, even in certain periods of English history, some would argue that Viserys has the better claim than Aegon because Viserys was the son of a king (and queen), whereas Aegon was only the son of a prince (and princess). Viserys get bonus points for being "born in the purple", it's not just that Viserys's father was king, but he was king when Viserys was born. Plus Viserys also has two Targaryen parents. Aegon only has one.

 

Which isn't to say that Illyrio thought that way, or that primogeniture isn't the commonly accept rule.

 

But then again, when have rules ever applied to the Targaryens?

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One thing I always thought was a little unrealistic was that Dany and Viserys would be the only two remaining Targaryens.  Even after the Russian Revolution and the murder of the Tsar's family, there was a large Romanov diaspora living in Europe.  It would have made more sense if Dany and Viserys lived with several Targaryen uncles, aunts, and cousins, but then, that would have made their plight seem less tragic. 

 

InsertWordHere's explanation is a good one,  Also if you read more about the Targaryens later on it,

while they have a couple of relatives around, the core family is very isolated. They interbreed within the core immediate family to and not like the Romanovs who were mostly cousins across the European royal families. The family has been severely affected in the past as well and the historical fact is that most of them came together from Valryia which was destroyed after they left.

 

Robert intended to kill all of them. So he destroyed or drove out most of their supporters and relatives.

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SUMMARY

 

EDDARD I

 

The chapter opens with King Robert's party of three hundred riding through the gates of Winterfell. Ned knows many of the riders and instantly spots Ser Jaime Lannister, Sandor Clegane, the Crown Prince, and "the Imp" Tyrion Lannister.

 

It takes Ned a moment to recognize his old friend Robert because Robert has gained a lot of weight and has grown a thick beard to hide his double chin. Ned recalls that Robert used to be fit and handsome. In the past he was fearsome in battle and Ned thinks of him then as having the "strength of a giant". Robert used a massive warhammer in battle that Ned himself is barely able to lift.

 

The last time that Ned and Robert have seen each other was nine years ago during Balon Greyjoy's Rebellion. Apparently Lord Balon Greyjoy decided that he wanted to be King Balon Greyjoy of the Iron Islands so Robert, Ned, and their men had to ride out to put him back in his place. It's made clear that a consequence of Balon Greyjoy's rebellion is that his son Theon had to become a "ward" and "hostage" of Ned Stark's as part of the peace terms and as a way of keeping Balon in check in the future.

 

Robert is super happy to see Ned and gives him a hug telling him that he hasn't changed a bit. Ned is polite and doesn't say what he's thinking about Robert's weight gain and courteously tells him that Winterfell is at his disposal.

 

Queen Cersei is striding through on foot now with her children. She's been traveling in a two story wheelhouse that takes forty horses to pull it so I guess it's nice. Ned kneels in the snow to kiss Cersei's ring and Robert embraces Catelyn warmly like a sister.

After these friendly greetings Robert immediately asks Ned if he can be taken down to the the family crypt so that he might pay his respects. Ned loves that Robert is asking to do this but Cersei is visibly annoyed and begins to voice reasons for why Robert shouldn't go down to the crypt. Robert gives her a look, her twin brother Jaime grabs her arm, and she decides to shut up.

 

Ned and Robert go down to the crypt together and Ned is still marveling at how much Robert has changed in terms of appearance. Robert complains about how long the journey took from King's Landing to Winterfell and notes that the kingdom of the North is as large as the other six kingdoms combined.

 

Robert and Ned tease each other a bit and Robert seems surprised that there's snow on the ground already. He says he can't imagine what a winter in the North must be like. Ned admits that winters in the North are hard but says that the Starks will survive as they always have. Robert tries to persuade Ned to come visit the South telling him how great it is. Robert gives a run down of his favorite things in the South (food, wine, money, and women) and is out of breath by the time they get to the bottom of the stairs. Ned notes that Robert's lifestyle is taking a toll on his health.

 

Inside of the crypt Ned tells Robert "She is down at the end with Father and Brandon." Ned continues to lead and Robert follows as they pass the lines of the dead members of House Stark. Each tomb has its own sword and stone direwolf and we learn that the Starks were the Kings in the North in the years before the Dragonlords came to Westeros from overseas.

 

They get to three tombs, those of Lord Rickard Stark and his two children Brandon and Lyanna Stark. Brandon had been only twenty when he was strangled on the orders of the Mad King Aerys Targaryen. Interestingly, this happened just a few days before Brandon was supposed to marry Catelyn Tully of Riverrun. Lyanna was just sixteen when she died and is described as having been a kind of "child woman of surpassing loveliness." It's clear that Ned loved her very much. Robert is said to have loved Lyanna even more than Ned and Lyanna was to have been his bride.

 

As Robert kneels at Lyanna's tomb he comments that she was more beautiful than the stone likeness. When he gets up he asks Ned why he had to bury Lyanna in such a dark place and Ned says it's because she's a Stark of Winterfell. Robert feels that she should be on a hill somewhere so that she can be under the sun and clouds but Ned reminds Robert that he, Ned, was with her when she died and she told him that she wanted to be with her father and Brandon.

Ned is taken back to the day of Lyanna's death.

 

He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. “I bring her flowers when I can,” he said. “Lyanna was . . . fond of flowers.”

 

Robert is bitter that he was only able to kill Rhaegar Targaryen once. He even admits that he still kills Rhaegar in his dreams at night. Ned has no reply to this and after a quiet moment he suggests that they go back as Cersei will be waiting. Robert says that the Others can take his wife and chides Ned for continuing to be so formal with him.  Ned asks about what happened with Jon Arryn.

 

Robert says that they gave a tourney for one of his sons where Jon attended and appeared to be in good health yet two weeks later he was dead. Robert says that he's never seen a man get sick so quickly. Robert and Ned both comment on how much they loved Jon Arryn.

 

Ned tells Robert that Catelyn is concerned about her sister Lysa and wants to know how she's doing. Robert frankly says that Lysa is bit crazy and suggests that it's because of Jon's death. He mentions that he'd hoped to have her son Robert Arryn fostered with Tywin Lannister since Jon Arryn had no brothers and he apparently doesn't want Robert Arryn to continue to be raised by women. Ned thinks that a snake would be a preferable foster parent than Lord Tywin but he keeps his opinion to himself.

 

Robert complains about Lysa and Robert Arryn for a bit. He says that Robert is six years old but sickly and seems frustrated that Lysa would take Robert away with her to the Eyrie. The King seems to want to look out for the child who was named after him but doesn't feel that he can do it if he remains at the Eyrie with his mother. Ned offers to foster the boy instead and says that Lysa can come too if she wants. He says that Lysa and Catelyn were close when they were girls so it should be fine.

 

As sensible as the suggestion sounds the King says thanks but no thanks. He explains that if he allows Robert Arryn to be fostered at Winterfell then Tywin Lannister is going to get all offended. Ned says that Robert Arryn's welfare is more important than Lord Tywin's ego but the King can't be swayed.

 

Robert finally cuts to the chase and asks Ned why he thinks he made this long journey to the North. Ned thinks he knows what Robert wants but is content delay a bit longer. He tells Robert that surely he wants to hang out and spend time with him. Ned also mentions the Night's Watch and tells Robert that he should go visit the Wall and talk with the men who are there. He starts to get into some of the problems the Night's Watch are facing but Robert interrupts him and basically says yeah, yeah, the Wall has been standing for like eight thousand years it can definitely wait a few days and I've got my own problems to deal with like figuring out who's going to replace Jon Arryn.

 

Robert wants a new Warden of the East now that Jon Arryn is dead. Ned speaks up for Robert Arryn pointing out that the Arryns have always been the Wardens of the East and that the title goes with the domain. Robert seems annoyed with Ned for mentioning this and says that he can't rely on a young boy to hold the East. 

 

After some complaining about how hard it is to be the King and a comment where he says that he feels that winning the throne has been a lot easier than keeping it all these years, Robert tells Ned that he needs his help down in King's Landing. Robert tells Ned that he would name him the Hand of the King.

 

Ned isn't surprised by what Robert says and immediately goes down on one knee and tells Robert that he is not worthy of the honor. Ned thinks to himself that the last thing he wants is to be the second most powerful man in the kingdoms. Robert laughs and tells Ned that if he wanted to honor him that he'd allow him to retire. He breaks it down even further and tells Ned that his plan is for Ned to do all of the boring work required to run the realm while Robert gets to enjoy all of the perks of being the King. He's actually totally upfront about it and tells Ned that the smallfolk have a saying that the King eats and the Hand takes the shit. Robert tries hard to make it all seem extremely funny but Ned isn't laughing.

 

The Starks apparently aren't big on laughter and humor according to Ned so Robert tells him that if he comes down to King's Landing that they'll be able to hang out and laugh again. Robert seems to know this is going to be a hard sell because he brings up all the coulda, woulda, shoulda with Lyanna and talks about how they should have become brothers through marriage. Robert tells Ned that it isn't too late though because Robert has an eligible son and Ned has an eligible daughter and a union between them could finally make them family.

 

Ned points out that Sansa is only eleven years old but Robert is undaunted and replies that Sansa is old enough for a betrothal. He agrees that a marriage can wait a few years. Robert is impatient for Ned to say yes and tries to force him to accept right there on the spot. Ned is clearly trying to be delicate with Robert here and tells him that he'll need to talk it over with Catelyn. Robert grudgingly allows Ned to have some time but tells him not to keep him waiting too long.

 

Ned suddenly feels a terrible sense of foreboding and thinks to himself that his rightful place is in the North. He feels uneasy in the crypt and it's almost as though all of the past Starks are watching him and listening. He thinks about the fact that winter is coming.

Edited by Avaleigh
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Aah the first chapter that hints at the famous R + L = J.

 

Promise me, Ned

Promise what? ;)

 

The fever had taken her strength

This is very interesting. Later Ned reacall

her lying in a bed of blood I think. Which would mean that she just gave birth so the fewer probably wouldn't be from complications of child birth, that would take longer than right after giving birth I think. Unless she'd been laying there for a while without anyone taking care of her. What ashole kingsguards in that case.

 

Favorite thing: “I vowed to kill Rhaegar for what he did to her.”

“You did,” Ned reminded him. “Only once,” Robert said bitterly.

Prediction:

So boring to do R+L = J but I can't think of anything else. I'll add that Rheagar was probably not as good of a guy that most people make him out to be. Running of like that leaving his mad dad to rule unopposed and his mother, wife and children unprotected.

What-if: Lyanna didn't die.

I could imagine there would be quiet a lot of ill feeling between her and Ned since her running of with Rhaegar caused their father and brother to die. Ned would probably still be claiming Jon as his bastard to protect him and keep him at Winterfell. Lyanna would marry Robert and live with him in Kingslanding. I don't know enough about her to guess at how their marriage would be like. Robert killed the man she loved so she might hate him. Or she'd understand that he is not really the one to blame for all that happened. Robert would probably tire of her pretty quickly but I don't think he'd have a reason to dislike her. She'd probably be very concerned about Jon's future and do something to ensure his future like convince Robert to grant him some land or have someone take him on as a squire. I don't think he'd go to the wall in that case which would cause Sam to be pretty miserable and the wildlings would succeed in taking castle black but then Stannis would probably drive them back again. I could go on with other things being different in Kingslanding and Winterfell but I wont.
I will add though that another equally likely possibility is that Lyanna would die in another following child birth.



By the way I'm asking again that we please make this thread official reread rather than just a discussion of these books. Who will ever go here before reading all books?

Edited by Holmbo
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I have already agreed to that, Holmbo.  What else do we need to make it official? I think it's a pain to spoiler tag things, and I know I will mention future book happenings when discussing these chapters, so, I really don't feel motivated to post everything in spoiler tags.

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I don't even know how to spoiler tag on the phone.

One of the mods would have to change the description in the pinned post i suppose.

Edited by Holmbo
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Holmbo, 

Martin was probably trying to suggest puerperal fever, though that usually doesn't set in until 24 hours after birth. It could be Lyanna had already given birth to Jon one day ago, but there weren't too many people on site who could clean up the blood, etc.

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I posted this chapter a bit earlier because this is a busy weekend for me. 

 

Also, I too would like to voice my opinion about ditching the spoiler tags since the original idea for this was to be a reread. If there are any first time readers who are with us I think it would be nice if they put in their two cents otherwise I say we go back to the idea of this being reread project. 

 

As far as my thoughts on the chapter in general--

 

Things that stood out for me:

 

That wheelhouse sounds too absurd for words. Forty horses? Seriously? 

 

Cersei's ego was crazy huge even this early in the story. She can't stand Robert, she doesn't love him, but she still bristles at the idea that he's always preferred this dead woman to her because it wounds her pride. I feel like Jaime just by grabbing her hand was saying 'seven hells, Cersei, let it go, why the hell do you still care?'

 

The info about Brandon and Catelyn is still startling in a way even though I already knew about it. I can't recall if the show mentioned their betrothal or not. 

 

One of the main reasons that I think that Rhaegar was indeed a good guy is that I don't believe for a second that Robert was right about him. Robert seems like he's totally off base here and to me it makes sense that he would fail to understand a man like Rhaegar--I feel like they're polar opposites in just about every way.

 

As for Lyanna and Ned being on the outs if Lyanna had lived--my thought is that Lyanna or possibly a member of the Kingsguard told Ned that she and Rhaegar did try to communicate that this was no abduction but somehow the message failed to be delivered.

 

Theon being labeled as both a ward and a hostage. I think I'd remembered him only being thought of as a ward by Ned so it made me wonder again what sort of fear and uncertainty Theon felt when he was handed over to the Starks especially in the beginning. I'm definitely, definitely not making excuses for him, I just vaguely remember reading arguments that Theon basically "had it good" the second he was handed over to Ned Stark and taken out of the Iron Island environment and I'm not sure that it was quite as simple as that. I agree that Theon was better off with the Starks but I disagree that being a hostage for all of those years didn't do some serious damage to Theon's psyche.

 

I love that Ned is the main one who is concerned that Sansa is too young for marriage. For all of the talk about how these were the times because of the medieval inspiration, I like that there are at least some male characters who flat out recognize that it isn't just about when a girl begins to "flower". 

 

The end of the chapter gave me the chills. 

Edited by Avaleigh
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Cersei's ego was crazy huge even this early in the story. She can't stand Robert, she doesn't love him, but she still bristles at the idea that he's always preferred this dead woman to her because it wounds her pride. I feel like Jaime just by grabbing her hand was saying 'seven hells, Cersei, let it go, why the hell do you still care?'

That's interesting because it's quiet different from how i read it. I'm not sure exactly how to describe my view of it but at least i felt with jaime is was more like "I'm sorry no one listens to you". But now when i try to describe it I just start over thinking it.

I agree that the weelhouse sounds ridiculous.

I want to add my thought about how gross it really is to keep people's corpses around stored like that. Better to burn someone and throw the ashes over a field of flowers or something rather than storing their bones in the basement.

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