The Official Re-Read of Book 1: A Game Of Thrones

[Lady S.]

I'm going back to sleep soon, but ooh yes, Ned eating with all of his men! I also love knowing that one of them was Septon Chayle, even if they never discussed religion. The mixed faith aspect of Ned/Cat is one of the more interesting parts of their marriage, she prefers the Seven but believes in the old gods enough to feel their power in the godswood, and he doesn't believe in her gods but completely respects her faith, allows their kids to be brought up in sept and godswood, and accepts a priest and nun from the religion he doesn't follow into his household.

 

I wonder about Ned's reasoning for giving Arya sword lessons. What was the purpose of it? Just to cheer her up for the moment?

 

I think it was probably a way to focus her energy and keep her out of trouble, like sending a kid to karate lessons and hoping he'll never actually have to use it. The mention of Septa Mordane's task to turn her into a lady tells me he doesn't really intend for her to follow through on swordfighting as an adult.

 

Avaleigh, I also liked your observation about Arya's disillusionment with her father's men starting the false knights theme before either Stark girl really meets the Hound. Speaking of Ned's men, it's weird to me that he didn't want Sansa at the tourney until Septa Mordane persauded, since I think Jory and the others will be competing in it.

[Avaleigh]

Daenerys III

 

The khalasar are riding through the green grass of the Dothraki Sea and Dany tells Jorah how beautiful she thinks it all is. Jorah decides that this is a good time to scare Dany a bit about the ghost grass that grows in the Shadowlands beyond Asshai. Ghost grass is actually pretty creepy. Apparently it kills every plant it comes into contact with and even glows in the dark. He tells Dany that the Dothraki believe that one day the ghost grass will take over the world, so Dany begins to feel a little disturbed and tells him to stop saying that she doesn't want to talk about everything dying one day.

 

Dany turns her attention to Viserys who is struggling with his mount. Viserys is pretty miserable and is probably silently regretting that he didn't take Illyrio up on his offer to stay in his manse in Pentos until Drogo felt ready to deliver on his promise.

 

Illyrio actually urges Viserys to stay with him but Viserys thinks that if he accompanies Dany and Drogo that he'll be able to make sure that Drogo follows through with the arrangement. Viserys makes some hollow threats and waves his sword around a bit but, while Illyrio clearly isn't buying it, he ultimately doesn't say anything else to encourage Viserys to stay behind.

 

It's a beautiful day and Dany just wants to be able to enjoy the scenery without having to listen to anymore complaining from Viserys. Dany tells Jorah to command the khalasar to come to a halt and Jorah observes to her that she's beginning to sound like a queen. Dany corrects him saying that she's beginning to sound like a khaleesi. Dany seems to take comfort from Jorah's smiles and overall presence in her life.

 

While riding her Silver Dany thinks to herself that this is the first time she's ever truly felt like a princess.

 

In the beginning Dany has a difficult time adjusting to life with the Dothraki. Once they begin traveling Dany is sore and in pain from all of the riding. On the third day she thinks she's going to die and has all of these horrible sounding sores on her body from spending so much time in the saddle.

 

Khal Drogo ignores Dany during the day while they ride and then spends the evenings with his men drinking, fighting, racing, and watching women dance. Dany is left to have dinner alone or with Jorah and Viserys and spends a fair amount of time crying. Every night Drogo comes to Dany's tent to brutally fuck her and the best thing that Dany can say about these encounters is that he takes her from behind so she can at least hide her tears from him and use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain. Drogo is able to fall asleep immediately after these assaults but Dany is in too much pain to be able to sleep. 

 

The days and nights stretch on and Dany gets to the point where she feels that she would rather kill herself than go on.

 

Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her, She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

 

The next morning Dany is surprised to feel that her body isn't in as much pain as it usually is. Dany feels as though the gods may have taken pity on her after all and even Dany's handmaids notice the difference in her. Each day begins to feel easier than the last and Dany really begins to bond with her silver horse.

 

Dany also begins to respond to the natural beauty of her surroundings and finds herself looking forward to riding each day. Another positive point is that the sex with Drogo seems to have improved so at least she's not always crying out in pain every time they're together.

 

Walking through the grass alone, Dany decides that she wants to feel the ground beneath her feet and begins to remove her boots. As she's doing this Viserys rides up behind her all furious and shouting because of her order commanding the khalasar to stop. Viserys jumps off of his horse and gets in Dany's face for daring to command him. He grabs her, shakes her, and asks her if she's forgotten who he is? He tells Dany to look at herself and he seems to resent that Dany is dressed like a Dothraki now while he's still dressed like an outsider. Dany thinks to herself that she looks as though she belongs where they are whereas Viserys looks totally out of place.

 

Viserys is still laying into Dany and tells her that he's the King and she can't command him because he's the blood of the dragon, blah, blah, blah. He then gets really extra on Dany by digging his fingers into her arms telling her that he's not going to be ordered around by some "horselord's slut". Dany is totally over Viserys and his bullshit at this point so she pushes him away hard.

 

Viserys is so pissed off that Dany has dared to defy him that he basically looks like he's going to spontaneously combust right there on the spot, but all he can do is stare at her incredulously.

 

Suddenly, there's a crack of a whip and Viserys finds himself on the ground looking up with a whip wrapped tightly around his neck.

 

Bloodrider Jhogo wants to know if Dany wants to have Viserys killed and Dany immediately says no so they ask her if they should take one of Viserys's ears instead in order to teach him respect. Dany insists that she doesn't want Viserys to be harmed so they let him go and his neck is all marked and bloody from the whip.

 

Jorah tells Dany that he warned Viserys that this would happen and the two of them watch Viserys crying and struggling on the ground. It's a pitiful sight and Dany thinks to herself that her brother always has been rather wretched and pitiful. She realizes that whatever fear she used to have of her brother no longer exists.

 

To punish Viserys, Dany decides to have his horse taken from him thinking that this humbling experience might do him some good. Viserys throws another tantrum in response and asks Jorah to hit Dany in retaliation. Jorah ignores Viserys and follows Dany's order by taking away Viserys's horse while Viserys silently watches as though he can't quite believe what's happening.

 

Viserys soon falls to the back of the khalasar and Dany briefly wonders if he'll get lost. She's still shocked that she found the courage to hit Viserys and thinks to herself that she's probably woken the dragon. Jorah tells Dany that Rhaegar was the last dragon and flat out tells her that Viserys is "less than the shadow of a snake."

 

Dany is startled by how frankly Jorah is speaking to her and brings up the fact that Jorah swore Viserys his sword. Jorah admits that he did and says that if Viserys is a shadow of a snake then that doesn't say very much about men like himself who serve Viserys.

 

Dany weakly points out that Viserys is technically the rightful King so Jorah puts a couple more cards on the table and asks Dany if she honestly wants to see Viserys sitting on a throne? Dany admits that Viserys wouldn't be a very good king but says something about how Illyrio has made it seem like the common people are just waiting for the return of their rightful dragon king.

“The common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends,” Ser Jorah told her. “It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace.” He gave a shrug. “They never are.”

 

Dany rode along quietly for a time, working his words like a puzzle box. It went against everything that Viserys had ever told her to think that the people could care so little whether a true king or a usurper reigned over them. Yet the more she thought on Jorah’s words, the more they rang of truth.

 

“What do you pray for, Ser Jorah?” she asked him.

 

“Home,” he said. His voice was thick with longing.

 

“I pray for home too,” she told him, believing it.

 

Ser Jorah laughed. “Look around you then, Khaleesi.”

 

But it was not the plains Dany saw then. It was King’s Landing and the great Red Keep that Aegon the Conqueror had built. It was Dragonstone where she had been born. In her mind’s eye they burned with a thousand lights, a fire blazing in every window. In her mind’s eye, all the doors were red.

 

Dany knows in her heart that Viserys will never take back the Seven Kingdoms and thinks that she's probably secretly known this all of her life. She knows that he couldn't lead an army even if he were given one. Jorah thinks Dany is smartening up and Dany firmly declares to him that she is no longer a child.

 

When Dany enters her tent, her attention is caught by her dragon eggs and she notices that they are warm to the touch, almost hot. Dany assumes that they've been warmed by the sun.

Her handmaids draw her a bath and as Dany is being bathed she asks if they've ever seen a dragon. Irri and Jhiqui both agree that there are no more dragons even in the East where magic seems to have more of a presence than it does in Westeros. According to Viserys the last dragons died more than a century ago.

 

Doreah, a Lyseni pleasure slave, tells Dany that a trader from Qarth once told her that dragons come from the moon and that at one time there were two moons but one moon got too close to the sun and ended up cracking. Thousands of dragons supposedly spilled out and drank the fire of the sun and this is why dragons breathe flame.

 

Irri and Jhiqui think that Doreah is a fool to believe such a story and say that it is known (and somehow makes more sense to them) that the moon is apparently the wife of the sun. 

 

After her bath, Dany asks Doreah to stay behind to dine with her and it seems that Dany wants to get some tips on how to best pleasure Drogo sexually.

 

When Drogo comes into Dany's tent that night she's up waiting for him and tells him that tonight they're going to go outside since all big things for the Dothraki are supposed to happen in the outdoors.

 

With other people watching Dany tells Drogo that she wants to look on his face tonight rather than being taken from behind as he usually does. Instead, Dany mounts Drogo and rides him hard enough to get him to call her name for the first time.

 

The khalasar has journeyed to the far side of the Dothraki Sea now and Jhiqui observes aloud to Dany that Dany is pregnant. Dany tells Jhiqui that she already knows.

 

The discovery of her pregnancy coincides with Dany's fourteenth name day.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Holmbo]

The beginning of this chapter made me long for going hiking. I've so much to do with my master thesis right now that the idea of just riding in grass all day sounds pretty great.

The rest of the chapter is not as light hearted. I'm not sure how to discuss it because I keep getting into reflections about sexual abuse and how cultural aspects and upbringing would affect how people view it. And I'm not sure we need any more of that discussion.

I will however once again criticize the Dothraki culture for being unrealistic about being so dependent on horses but not naming them and eating them.

I'm not that bothered with Dany's age to be honest. Of course the whole situation is creepy but the aspect of her having sex and getting pregnant so young is not really to me. In my country is rather common that girls has had sex at fourteen. The age of consent is 15 so it's not strictly legal but that doesn't stop them.

[Avaleigh]

I was a little delayed in putting this chapter up because sex abuse has been like the theme of the month in terms of discussion. I don't have anything more to add other than thinking Drogo is, at best an insensitive, macho asshole who spends his days riding, fighting, raping, drinking, and watching strippers dancers. 

 

There are lots of things about the Dothraki culture that rub me the wrong way and since I'm burned out on the rape discussion as well I'll just say that I rolled my eyes over the Dothraki basically thinking that only soft weaklings would want to name a horse or other animal. 

 

Seeing Viserys throw that childish temper tantrum made me laugh. We really do have a lot of characters who are reduced to tears in this story whether the situation warrants it or not. I'm not going to pretend that I wouldn't be freaked out if I'd just had some guy practically choke the life out of me with a whip, but somehow I couldn't bring myself to feel too sorry for Viserys there. 

 

I like Jorah's common sense. Yeah he's sworn his sword to Viserys but he's not going to just blindly do whatever Viserys wants him to do and he doesn't come across as dishonorable. Makes me wonder what Jaime would make of this little scenario where Jorah finds his loyalty shifting to a person that he didn't swear his sword to. 

 

My favorite part of this chapter is easily the way Dany and Jorah bond by longing for "home". Jorah wants it so much and to know that he'll later pass up the chance of going home and being pardoned only to choose Dany only to then be dismissed from her service. My heart is already breaking for him whether or not he had it coming. 

 

Plus, now, knowing on the show that he won't be the 1000th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch just makes me sad. Jeor's dream for his son isn't going to happen. 

 

At this point I guess all I want is for Jorah to be forgiven by Dany and allowed to perform one final super heroic act.

[Lady S.]

I must have lost track of time with my migraines (I'm on medication and feeling better now), because I felt like I hadn't checked on this sub-forum in a month. But, ok, Dany III, I don't really even have a lot to say about this one. Except I think the show improved on Dany/Drogo again by showing us Dany's lessons with Doreah and making it feel like she did it for her own sake, not just to be a good wife. The implication in this chapter that she just got used to Drogo's nightly rides and it turned from pain to pleasure kinda squicks me out, and that's part of why I think it's Martin fault that people misremember Dany/Drogo and think D&D completely invented the rough honeymoon stage, since it feels like GRRM did his best to brush over that aspect.

 

My favorite part of this chapter is the feeling Dany has walking barefoot through the Dothraki sea before Viserys accosts her. There's some nice worldbuilding of the Essosi landscape here, but the Dothraki do feel very underdrawn and what's there feels very simplified compared to the Mongols or any other real culture that inspired them. I did like knowing that they believe the sun and moon are married though, so that that's the source of Dany/Drogo's later terms of endearment.

[Last Time Lord]

I started reading this for the first time, earlier today.

Amazon Kindle has A Game Of Thrones through A Dance With Dragons as a giant eBook bundle for $19.99

I am barely into A Game Of Thrones, and so far, there are changes that a relatively minor, but change my perspective about things in the show.

Like, the Stark kids and Dany being a lot younger in the book just makes this whole thing much more tragic.

And Catelyn Stark is downright cruel to Jon, while I thought she could be cold to him in the show, but he the book, she's been very resentful towards him.

Edited June 14, 2015 by Last Time Lord

[WearyTraveler]

Welcome, Last Time Lord!

 

Be aware that since this is a re-read thread, we sometimes talk about events that happen later in the book openly (no spoiler tags).  Enjoy!

[Last Time Lord]

Welcome, Last Time Lord!

Be aware that since this is a re-read thread, we sometimes talk about events that happen later in the book openly (no spoiler tags). Enjoy!

First, thanks for the welcome. :)

Second, I've seen the first season of the show, so I figure I've already been spoiled on the major plot points of the book, though I'm anticipating it won't be exactly a 1:1 transition.

I think I'll probably pop in this thread more sporadically than others.

[Avaleigh]

Bran IV

 

Out in the courtyard of Winterfell little Rickon is running around and playing with the direwolves while Bran watches from his bedroom window. Shaggydog's hair has turned totally black now and his eyes look like Cersei's green fire. Grey Wind seems to be the leader and Shaggydog spends his time guarding Rickon in the game they're all playing. Bran thinks that Summer seems like the smartest of the wolves.

 

Rickon is laughing and seems like he's having the time of his life so Bran gets teary eyed and can't help but feel jealous and wishes that he could be down there with them all.

 

Bran's eighth birthday has come and gone and he thinks to himself that he's too old to cry about stuff anymore. He thinks bitterly about the crow dreams that he's had and Old Nan tells him that it's true that "crows are all liars." She tells Bran that she knows a story about a crow but Bran snaps at her and tells her that he's over hearing any more stories for the time being going so far as to say that he hates them now.

 

He misses his mother and father and wishes that he could run, ride, and climb again. He wishes that life could return to what it had been before.

 

Old Nan tells Bran that she knows a story about a boy who hated stories and Bran feels like he wants to scream at her for not getting it.

 

Feeling abandoned by everyone but Robb and Rickon, Bran thinks about how much Robb has changed since he's become the acting Lord in the absence of their parents and notes that Robb never smiles anymore.

 

Robb spends most of his time drilling the guard and training with his sword. He also spends a lot of time going over accounts with Maester Luwin. He doesn't have much time for his brothers and when he has to leave Winterfell to visit various holdfasts his absences are upsetting to Rickon who seems to fear being abandoned.

 

Nan offers to tell Bran the story about Brandon the Builder who built Winterfell and possibly even the Wall. Bran tells Nan that his favorite stories are the scary ones but Nan tells Bran that he doesn't really know anything about true fear. Bran understands that she is talking about the Others now but still acts like he isn't terribly interested.

 

Nan begins by talking of a winter that took place thousands of years ago that lasted a generation and was fatal to people whether they were highborn or not. During this long winter some women would kill their children rather than see them starve and at this point Nan pauses and asks Bran if this is the sort of story he likes to hear.

 

Bran is hesitant but admits that this is sort of what he was talking about.

 

It was during this long winter that the Others supposedly came for the first time. Old Nan describes the Others as being pale, dead things that hate iron, fire, warm blooded creatures, and the "touch of the sun". The Others started taking over everything from holdfasts to entire kingdoms and their armies would grow and grow with bodies of the slain. It is also said that they would feed their "dead servants" human children.

 

“Now these were the days before the Andals came, and long before the women fled across the narrow sea from the cities of the Rhoyne, and the hundred kingdoms of those times were the kingdoms of the First Men, who had taken these lands from the children of the forest. Yet here and there in the fastness of the woods the children still lived in their wooden cities and hollow hills, and the faces in the trees kept watch. So as cold and death filled the earth, the last hero determined to seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds—”

 

Bran is on the edge of his seat now and is annoyed when Nan is interrupted by Maester Luwin telling them that Tyrion Lannister and some men from the Night's Watch are visiting and that they have word from Jon.

 

Hodor takes Bran down to the hall to see Tyrion and the other guests and Bran thinks to himself that the room feels full of anger the moment he and Hodor walk through.

 

Robb welcomes the men of the Night's Watch to Winterfell and is then completely hostile to Tyrion complete with making the threatening gesture of having an unsheathed sword on his lap. Tyrion, to his credit, doesn't seem to be intimidated and tells Robb that he should maybe learn how to develop a lord's courtesy. He also compares Robb unfavorably to his bastard brother and it's here that Bran interjects and blurts out Jon's name.

 

Tyrion makes a rather tactless comment about how Starks are hard to kill so Robb tells him that he'd better remember that fact.

 

Robb asks Hodor to come towards them with Bran and puts Bran in the high seat of the Lords of Winterfell. It's an old seat that is thousands of years old and dates back to when the Starks were the Kings of the North. Once Bran is settled Robb asks Tyrion about the business that he says he has with Bran.

 

Bran looks at Tyrion and seems fairly unnerved by Tyrion's mismatched eyes. Tyrion briefly questions Bran on how he fell and Bran denies that it was a fall. Robb snaps at Tyrion that Bran isn't there to answer Tyrion's questions and tells him to get on with it so that he can GTFO.

 

Tyrion tells Bran that he has a gift for him and asks Bran if he likes to ride. Luwin speaks up and points out the obvious fact that Bran no longer has the use of his legs but Tyrion insists that with the right horse and saddle Bran should be able to ride just fine.

 

Bran hotly denies that he's a cripple and seems like he's going to cry again. Tyrion tells Bran that if Bran isn't a cripple then Tyrion isn't a dwarf.

 

Maester Luwin asks what sort of saddle Tyrion had in mind and Tyrion hands over a paper containing plans of his own design for a saddle and tells Luwin that it shouldn't be any problem for the saddler of Winterfell to manage. Luwin looks at the plans and seems impressed and admits out loud that he feels he ought to have thought of something like this himself.

 

Bran doesn't want to get too excited about this gift yet because he's unsure about whether or not it will work but Tyrion reassures him that the saddle will work and essentially tells Bran that on horseback he'll be as "tall" as everybody else.

 

Robb is wary too and wonders if this is some sort of elaborate prank. He wants to know why Tyrion should want to help Bran and Tyrion responds that Jon specifically asked Tyrion to try to find some way to help Bran. He also acknowledges that he feels a sympathy with Bran likely because of his own experience of being a dwarf.

 

Rickon bursts into the hall now and has the direwolves with him. They immediately pick up Tyrion's scent and begin to growl at him. Theon tells Tyrion flat out that the direwolves don't like his smell so Tyrion tries to leave but finds himself suddenly surrounded by all three snarling direwolves.

 

It's Bran who calls them off and he does so because Tyrion's guards were reaching for their blades in order to protect the son of their lord.

 

Bran calls Summer over to him and Robb follows suit. Shaggydog continues to snarl at Tyrion until Bran tells his little brother to call the direwolf off. Rickon calls Shaggy over and it's clear that Tyrion was totally nervous and sweating during this near attack and seems that he even pissed himself in fear.

 

Robb actually seems shaken and a little apologetic and admits to Tyrion that he has no idea why the wolves just did that. Tyrion makes a crack about how they probably thought he was meant to be their dinner but gives his sincere thanks to Bran for calling them off.

 

Tyrion goes to leave but Maester Luwin asks him to remain for a moment. After whispering for a bit with Robb, Robb finally sheathes his sword and tells Tyrion that he may have treated him hastily and that he's grateful to Tyrion for the gift that he's just given to Bran. He tells Tyrion that he is welcome to enjoy the hospitality of Winterfell if he wishes.

 

Tyrion thinks Robb is trying to humor him with false courtesy so Tyrion basically tells him thanks but no, he'd rather stay at an inn than their castle and acknowledges that they'll both sleep easier this way.

 

Tyrion tells Yoren that he'll meet him the following day on the road and then immediately exits the hall.

 

Four men of the Night's Watch remain in the hall and Robb tells them that they have accommodations prepared for them and hopes that all of the men will join him at his table during dinner.

 

Hodor takes Bran back to his room where Old Nan has fallen asleep in her chair. Hodor takes a sleeping Nan away and Bran has a moment with Summer where he thinks about how he'll be able to ride again and that he'll even go hunting again soon.

 

Bran has another falling dream/nightmare and seems to be reliving the moment when he was listening to conversation of the Lannister twins and knew that whatever they were talking about was something that he shouldn't be hearing. He wakes up from the dream and actually whispers aloud "I didn't hear."

 

Hodor helps wash and dress Bran and then brings Bran down into the hall for dinner.

 

Yoren has a place of honor and is seated between Robb and Maester Luwin. Robb asks about his uncle Benjen and Yoren admits that Benjen seems to have gone missing. Benjen had been sent by the Old Bear to try to find out what happened to Ser Waymar Royce and the two men who were with him. Yoren says that it's most likely that Benjen is dead.

 

Robb is instantly upset at hearing this news and shouts firmly and loudly that his uncle isn't dead. He repeats himself as if Yoren isn't getting it or something so Yoren shrugs his shoulders and is like whatever, dude, if that's what you have to tell yourself. Another man from the Night's Watch says that Benjen knows the Haunted Forest better than anyone and thinks that if anybody should be able to find their way back safe it's Benjen. Yoren says Benjen might come back and he might not but points out that other good men have gone into those woods before only to never be seen again.

 

Bran can't help but think about Old Nan's stories and starts scaring himself thinking about things like wights and ice spiders until he remembers that in the stories, the Children of the Forest were able to help the last hero so he exclaims that maybe the Children will be able to help Benjen.

 

Theon laughs at this and Maester Luwin gently tells Bran that all of the Children of the Forest died out thousands of years ago and the only thing that is left of them are the faces in the weirwood trees.

 

Yoren pipes up here and says that the Children may be gone south of the Wall but who can really say what all goes on and lives north of the Wall?

 

After dinner it's Robb who carries Bran up to his room and puts him to bed. Robb sits on Bran's bed in silence, apparently in deep thought, and finally tells Bran that he promises that he'll find the right horse for him.

 

Bran asks Robb "Are they ever coming back?" and Robb insists that they will. Robb tells Bran that their mother will come back and they'll even ride out to meet her and comments that she'd be so surprised and happy to see Bran riding again. Robb then suggests that afterwards they'll go and pay a surprise visit to Jon at the Wall and they can have an adventure in getting there.

 

Bran repeats the idea of having an adventure with Robb and at this Robb begins to sob so Bran reaches out and grabs his brother's hand in an effort to comfort him.

Edited June 14, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Avaleigh]

Observations:

 

Lol, what was I saying about how the Starks cry a lot? I don't think we've had a Stark chapter that didn't involve rivers of tears. I'm not complaining it's just something I can't help but notice.

 

Theon laughs a lot. I wonder if anything would be able to get him to laugh again. 

 

Robb is so totally Ned's son. The way he thinks that Tyrion is playing some cruel joke on an eight year old boy because he's already so prejudiced with his thinking was a little disappointing to see even if it was true to the character. It definitely gave me shades of Ned thinking that Littlefinger was playing some prank on him when he brought him to the brothel. It seems to me that the Starks are very quick to see insults too even when they aren't there.

 

I love how Bran is riveted by the story of the Long Night. I felt like I was just as annoyed as he was that Nan was interrupted.

 

As much as I enjoyed Old Nan's descriptions of the Others and the Long Night my favorite bit about this chapter is the way that Robb suggests that he and Bran pull a surprise visit to Jon at the Wall. Even though I know it won't happen the idea of it sounds so fun and made me think of Sansa's snow castle moment in the Vale and the time when she thinks about how sweet it would be to see Jon again.

 

What's the deal with Tyrion and the direwolves? I'm very surprised that I didn't remember that this was a thing with four of the six direwolves. What is it about him that rubs them the wrong way? Ghost gets over it but the others don't and I wonder if this is going to be significant at all?

[WearyTraveler]

I had the same thought about the direwolves and Tyrion.  I like Tyrion, but I definitely thought when reading this book that something was up beause of the way the direwolves act around him.  

 

Robb also reminded me of Ned, but while Robb was mistaken in his prejudice, Ned was not.  Littlefinger relished the thought of having Cat in a brothel and taking the honorable Ned Stark to one to meet his wife there.  And he was mocking Ned the whole way from the castle to the brothel.  Also, while LF was telling Ned the truth about Cat's location, he then lied to both Ned and Cat about the dagger.  Ned's fears were entirely justified.

[benteen]

Think about how things might have changed if Robb hadn't treated Tyrion so rudely that Tyrion decided to leave early.

[WearyTraveler]

Think about how things might have changed if Robb hadn't treated Tyrion so rudely that Tyrion decided to leave early.

 

Tyrion told Yoren he'd see him in the morning, so the plan was always to continue traveling with the NW.  Robb didn't speed up or delay their trip.

[Avaleigh]

My what if scenario for this is what if the direwolves had attacked Tyrion and he'd accidentally been killed? How would House Lannister have responded? Would Tywin be relieved? Would he want revenge? Would the Starks attempt to do anything to try to make it up? Would Ned still remain Hand after something like that? 

[Holmbo]

True about the crying of Starks. I think one could see it as signs of them being honest. Not hiding their emotions.

I was noticing that in this chapter too Robb is waving his sword around. Just as in the Cat chapter. Anyone who threatens Tyrion physically just seems like an ashole because he's so clearly outmatched.

Ghost warmed to Tyrion. Maybe the other wolves would have too if he was around them long enough. But it is curious if we are too believe the wolves are somehow responding to threats to their owner. So first Tyrion was a threat to Jon but then he was not?

[benteen]

Tyrion told Yoren he'd see him in the morning, so the plan was always to continue traveling with the NW.  Robb didn't speed up or delay their trip.

 

Ah, thank for clearing that up.  It's been a while since I've read the books.

[Miss Dee]

Could it be more that they're responding to their owners' unconscious fears and beliefs, since the Starks don't trust the Lannisters? Once Jon warmed to Tyrion, so did Ghost, it seemed.

[Holmbo]

Could be. But most of the time it seems to me that the wolves are warning of real threats. Not threats precivied by their owners.

[Avaleigh]

Grey Wind seemed a lot more concerned than Robb prior to the Red Wedding. I won't say that Robb seemed oblivious to the danger but he and Ghost definitely seemed like they were in different places emotionally at the Twins and when Robb tells Tyrion here that he doesn't know why the wolves acted the way that they did, he seems like he's being totally sincere, so I'm inclined to agree with the idea that the direwolves can pick up on things that their owners don't necessarily sense. Maybe it's something to do with blood. I wonder if Ghost would like Jaime? (Or Daenerys for that matter.)

 

Then again, Ghost seemed totally transfixed with Melisandre and maybe even liked her so maybe it isn't exactly a "good" person/"bad" person thing with them when it comes to what they pick up. I know she's pro-Jon but you'd think he'd be wary of her all the same just because of the kind of person she is.

 

When it comes to the direwolves not liking a character I can't help but think of when a dragon inexplicably likes a character. I feel like a lot of it might be about the blood. 

[Lady S.]

True about the crying of Starks. I think one could see it as signs of them being honest. Not hiding their emotions.

I was noticing that in this chapter too Robb is waving his sword around. Just as in the Cat chapter. Anyone who threatens Tyrion physically just seems like an ashole because he's so clearly outmatched.

Yeah, what the hell is this guy's problem? Between pointing his sword at Tyrion and standing up during dinner to say MY UNCLE IS NOT DEAD, Bran actually comes off as the more mature one here.

 

But this chapter ends with possibly my fave Robb moment in the whole series so I love it for that and Old Nan's scary story.

 

Robb also reminded me of Ned, but while Robb was mistaken in his prejudice, Ned was not.  Littlefinger relished the thought of having Cat in a brothel and taking the honorable Ned Stark to one to meet his wife there.  And he was mocking Ned the whole way from the castle to the brothel.  Also, while LF was telling Ned the truth about Cat's location, he then lied to both Ned and Cat about the dagger.  Ned's fears were entirely justified.

Yeah, iirc Littlefinger even jokes about leading him to his death, and of course coming up he says distrusting him is the smart thing to do.

 

Hi, Last Time Lord, it's exciting to have a newbie in here. I think I will start spoilering references to future books then.

[Avaleigh]

Eddard V

 

It's hot and humid in King's Landing and Ned is sweating and uncomfortable as he's meeting with Grand Maester Pycelle. Pycelle doesn't drink so he and Ned are having iced milk with honey.

 

Pycelle speaks for awhile of past summers and winters that he remembers and then they return to their talk of Jon Arryn's death and the manner of it.

 

Pycelle admits that Lord Arryn hadn't been himself for some time and Pycelle thinks he should know since they'd served on the Small Council with each other for so many years. He goes on to say that Lord Arryn was troubled by his "sickly" son, his anxious wife, and the pressures of being Hand in general.

 

One day a healthy looking Lord Arryn asked Pycelle if he could borrow a particular book and it is shortly after this that Lord Arryn becomes ill with pain and takes to his bed. Ned questions Pycelle about his decision to send Maester Colemon away and Pycelle says that while he's fond of Colemon, he thought that Colemon's treatments weren't doing Jon any good.

 

Ned asks if Jon Arryn said anything during his last hours and Pycelle mentions that Lord Arryn calls the name Robert several times but Pycelle was unsure if he was asking for the King or his son. The King did indeed go to visit his Hand during his sudden illness and did his best to cheer him up. During Jon Arryn's final evening, after he has been given milk of the poppy to ease his suffering, he whispers to the King the words "The seed is strong." He then closes his eyes and is dead by the next morning.

 

Ned thinks Pycelle's refreshments taste terrible but he continues to drink for whatever reason. He asks Pycelle if he thinks there was anything suspicious about Jon's death but Pycelle tells him that it was no stranger than any other death.

 

Unsatisfied, Ned tells Pycelle that Lysa doesn't think it was a natural death and Pycelle responds by pretty much telling Ned that Lysa is deranged and has been especially paranoid since her last stillbirth.

 

Ned still wonders aloud whether or not Jon Arryn was poisoned and Pycelle seems uncomfortable now. He admits that it's possibly that Jon was poisoned but ultimately thinks that it's unlikely. Pycelle wonders who would want to murder Jon Arryn anyway since he was a man who was very much loved and didn't display any signs of common poisons. Ned makes a comment about how poison is a woman's weapon and Pycelle agrees while adding cravens and eunuchs to that list.

 

Pycelle then takes the opportunity to attempt to discredit Varys with Ned but Pycelle doesn't seem to realize that he's preaching to the choir.

 

As he's getting ready to leave, Ned thanks Pycelle for his time and then asks him if he might have a look at the book that Jon Arryn wanted to see before he became ill. Apparently it was a book that details the lineages of the noble houses of Westeros. Pycelle tells Ned that he'll have it sent to him once he finds it.

 

Before Ned leaves he has one last question for Pycelle. He wants to know if the Queen was by Lord Arryn's side at all as the King was during his final days. It turns out that Cersei had taken her children along with Jaime to Casterly Rock for a tourney in celebration of Joffrey's nameday. Pycelle sent word to the Queen of Jon's death while they were still at the Rock.

 

Pycelle again tells Ned that he's there to serve and Ned wonders to himself who Pycelle actually serves as he heads back to his own chambers.

 

While he's on his way back, Ned comes upon Arya who is in bare feet standing on one leg and struggling to keep her balance. She tells Ned that Syrio Forel says that a water dancer can stand on one toe for hours. Ned wants to know if she has to practice this little exercise on the stairs where she might fall but Arya tells him that a water dancer never falls.

 

Arya decides to ask her father about Bran and wonders if he'll live with them now. Ned tells her that Bran isn't strong enough yet and Arya is concerned about what will happen to Bran once he has grown up. Ned says that Bran has years to figure out what he wants to do but suggests that Bran might be the lord of a great holdfast or sit on the king's council; he might be an architect or a maester or even a septon.

 

Arya asks Ned if those options will be available to her as well and Ned tells her that she'll marry a king, rule his castle, and then have sons who will become princes, knights, lords, and maybe even High Septon. Arya makes a face and tells Ned that he's describing the wrong daughter. Ned sighs and has no reply for Arya so he leaves her to her exercises.

 

Back in his chambers, Ned is washing off when he is interrupted by one of his men who tells him that Littlefinger is requesting an audience.

 

Ned meets with Littlefinger in his solar and from there they can see the knights of the Kingsguard practicing with their swords. Littlefinger snarks a bit on Selmy not being all that bright but Ned defends the aging knight and calls him honorable and valiant. Petyr chatters a bit more about how Selmy might fare in the tourney before Ned snaps at him to get to the point of his visit.

 

Smirking, Littlefinger reminds Ned that he promised Catelyn that he'd help Ned in King's Landing and tells him that he has some people that Ned might want to question including Lord Arryn's former squire Ser Hugh of the Vale.

 

Ned is pleasantly surprised and thinks to himself that a squire is a pretty good find since they often know a lot about the men they work for. Ned tells Littlefinger to send for him but Petyr points out that it isn't that simple. He then points out various spies of the players in King's Landing and makes it clear to Ned that multiple people are watching his every move and that if he wants to talk to this guy then he's going to have to find a discreet way of doing it.

 

Ned seems upset once he realizes that people are spying on him and wonders aloud if everybody is the informer of somebody else when it comes to King's Landing. He's offended by the "intrigues" going on in the city and seems to wish he didn't have to deal with them.

 

Littlefinger asks Ned if there's anyone in his, Ned's, service that he trusts completely and Ned answers "yes" without hesitation.

“In that case, I have a delightful palace in Valyria that I would dearly love to sell you,” Littlefinger said with a mocking smile. “The wiser answer was no, my lord, but be that as it may. Send this paragon of yours to Ser Hugh and the others. Your own comings and goings will be noted, but even Varys the Spider cannot watch every man in your service every hour of the day.” He started for the door.

 

“Lord Petyr,” Ned called after him. “I . . . am grateful for your help. Perhaps I was wrong to distrust you.”

 

Littlefinger fingered his small pointed beard. “You are slow to learn, Lord Eddard. Distrusting me was the wisest thing you’ve done since you climbed down off your horse.”

[Last Time Lord]

I've just read through the part where Bran wakes up.

I think I liked the dream with the three eye crow in the book better than Bran just waking up in the show. I know Bran in the show had those dreams with the crow, but this introductory one in the book made a much bigger lasting Impression.

One detail I liked from a bit earlier when Ned had to kill Lady, he ordered for her body to be returned to Winterfell. Direwolves, they may be, but they are a part of the Stark family.

And considering Ned used his sword, Ice in the book, I'm glad the deed itself did not have too much detail devoted to it.

That whole section got me teary eyed, when it didn't have that effect on me in the show.

[Holmbo]

Palace in Valyria for sale :D

It's like those jokes about buying beach property at places with no ocean.

We later find out that Pycelle wanted Jon Arryn to die right?

Maybe the younger maester tried different remedies for absorbing poison. Can pepper be good for that?

[Avaleigh]

I didn't think Pycelle was in on it at all but I definitely don't trust my memory here. What's funny to me is that here's the second person telling Ned that Lysa is a little crazy. (I think the first person to drop a hint was Varys.) Then of course we know that Tyrion is going to tell Catelyn that Lysa is probably pretty different than she was when Cat last saw her. They put way too much faith in a woman they hadn't seen in what, at least a decade? 

 

I do give Robert credit for being there for Jon in the end and for trying to put him in good spirits. 

 

I also like that Ned is immediately suspicious of Cersei only to have those suspicions immediately thwarted by her presence at Casterly Rock. 

 

For all of the talk about how Tywin was out of the loop with regard to what sort of person Joffrey was, I'm sure he had to have gotten a dose during that visit. Maybe Joffrey was just on his best behavior for granddad? 

[benteen]

I'd forgotten that detail about Robert being there when Jon Arryn died.  Jon really must have been completely gone by then if he couldn't reveal what he had learned to Robert other than a vague line.

[Avaleigh]

When Ned thinks "Dark wings, dark words" I couldn't help but laugh that he has no idea how much that doesn't apply in this case. I'm imagining Cersei doing the Pete Campbell victory dance after getting that raven. I know at some point she thinks in her POV that Jon Arryn was a danger to her and Jaime because she includes Jon in that mini rant she has to herself about how Hands have never brought her anything but grief.  

 

It didn't even occur to me about it being odd that Jon wasn't able to tell Robert about it when Robert was at his side. Lucky Cersei. Again.

[Last Time Lord]

Hey, I'm all caught up with the discussion.

Neat.

On the Bran chapter, I thought Robb was trying too hard to be Lord Robb of Winterfell, and that's why he came across as childish in that chapter.

I thought the moment between him and Bran at the end of the chapter when he brought Bran to bed was absolutely adorable.

[Lady S.]

We later find out that Pycelle wanted Jon Arryn to die right?

Maybe the younger maester tried different remedies for absorbing poison. Can pepper be good for that?

Yeah, it's when Tyrion gives him his forced beard trimming, Pycelle says he let Jon die because he knew Arryn was giving Cersei trouble. I remember because that was the only time the show mentioned Jon Arryn between s1 and s4.

 

I like how Ned is actually proved right about trusting Jory completely. 

 

to be edited with any more thoughts later

[Avaleigh]

Jon IV

 

Jon is training the new recruits of the Night's Watch in the yard. The session is interrupted when a freshly arrived recruit comes lumbering into the yard. The new guy is fat, nervous, and sweating, and says that he was sent there to start training.

 

Pyp has travelled around a bit and is good at recognizing people's accents. He can tell that this new recruit is from the Reach and by the way that he's dressed in fur and velvet they can tell that he's from a noble family.

 

Thorne does his best to make the new recruit Sam feel welcome by calling him names like the Lord of Ham and Ser Piggy and even though Sam has brought his own armor, because the armor isn't black, Sam isn't allowed to use it so armorer Donal Noye is expected to be a miracle worker of sorts and the end result is that Sam looks even more ridiculous and uncomfortable almost like a sausage fit to burst.

 

Thorne wants to see what the new kid is made of so he sends in a muscular teen named Halder who makes short work of Sam and easily sends him to the ground. Sam cries out not to be hit any more and the other guys laugh and think Sam is a massive wimp.

 

Thorne is in full on raging dick mode now so he orders Sam to get up and when Sam doesn't, he tells Halder to strike Sam repeatedly with the flat of the blade until he finds his feet. Sam struggles and continues to get hit by Halder. Other guys like Rast are cheering Halder on and Jon takes a step forward but Pyp quietly tries to stop him.

 

When it seems as though Halder is going to hit Sam again, Jon tells Halder that it's enough. Halder pauses and looks at Thorne so Thorne reminds Jon that he, Thorne, is the one who is master at arms.

 

Jon ignores Thorne and tells Halder that there's no honor in beating a man who is already down. He also points out that Sam officially yielded. Jon's points make sense to Halder so he lowers his sword and this pisses off Thorne who seems to resent the influence that Jon already has on the new recruits.

 

Thorne teases that Jon must be in love to want to defend the new kid so why don't they make an exercise out of Jon defending Sam against three of the recruits. Jon thinks to himself that he's been able to fight two men but not three. Just as they're about to fight Pyp jumps in to join Jon's side and Grenn follows immediately after to make it a fair fight.

 

Jon moves to strike at Halder first and while Halder gets in a blow or two Jon gets him off of his feet with a cut to his leg and wins their fight pretty easily. Grenn is able to handle himself and is an improved fighter since he's been working with Jon. Jon helps Pyp a bit and their side ends up winning the little exercise.

 

Thorne is pretty disgusted with this outcome so he tells them he's done with teaching them for the day and leaves the yard.

 

Sam introduces himself and explains that he used to be the heir to Horn Hill and that his father is bannerman to the Tyrells of Highgarden. Grenn wants to know why Sam didn't get up and fight. Sam says that he wanted to but admits that he's a coward and that his father always said he was one. Grenn and Pyp are rendered speechless after this admission so Sam apologizes for being the way that he is. Jon tells Sam that he'll do better tomorrow and Sam is about to cry now and insists that he won't.

 

After Sam leaves, Grenn says that he wishes that they hadn't helped him and wonders if people will think they're cowards too. Pyp says that Grenn is too stupid to be a craven which Grenn instantly denies leading to the following exchange:
 

“You’re too stupid to be craven,” Pyp told him.

“I am not,” Grenn said.

“Yes you are. If a bear attacked you in the woods, you’d be too stupid to run away.”

“I would not,” Grenn insisted. “I’d run away faster than you.” He stopped suddenly, scowling when he saw Pyp’s grin and realized what he’d just said.

Jon leaves Grenn and Pyp to their squabbling and returns to the armory. He begins thinking about life at Castle Black and the routines that he's getting used to. Today he's been assigned to scatter gravel on the top of the footpaths on the Wall. Jon surprises himself by thinking of Tyrion and wonders what Tyrion would have made of a person like Sam. He ultimately decides that it takes a certain sort of courage to admit to that sort of cowardice the way Sam did.

 

It's late by the time Jon finishes and dinner is nearly over by the time Jon joins the other men in the Hall. At first he goes over to sit with his friends where Pyp is entertaining everyone with a story, but instead of joining in with the laughing group he chooses to sit with Sam who is of course on his own. Ghost is with him and Jon tells Sam that the direwolf is the sigil of his father's house.

 

Sam says that the sigil of his own father's house is that of the striding huntsman and Jon tries to make small talk by asking Sam if he likes to hunt. The mention of hunting brings Sam close to tears again so Jon is understandably pretty exasperated with Sam and asks him why he's so damned scared all of the time.

 

They go outside to talk and Sam admits that he thought the Wall would be different. He wasn't expecting sunshine and lollipops but he also wasn't expecting it to be in such bad shape and he didn't realize that it would be so horribly cold. He'd never even seen the snow before until this month so he's having difficulty adjusting.

 

Sam whines some more about his fears and gets all nervous at the idea of actually having to go to the top of the Wall so Jon has had it and wants to know why on earth a person like him would try to join the Night's Watch when he's so obviously unsuitable?

 

At these questions, Sam breaks down in sobs and cries until Ghost goes over to him and begins to lick away his tears. Sam freaks out for a moment and then laughs and Jon laughs with him. Jon tells Sam about the day he and his brothers found the direwolf pups and is soon telling Sam about Winterfell as well. He admits that he dreams about the castle and looks for various members of his family but in the dreams the castle is always empty.

He had never told anyone of the dream, and he did not understand why he was telling Sam now, yet somehow it felt good to talk of it. “Even the ravens are gone from the rookery, and the stables are full of bones. That always scares me. I start to run then, throwing open doors, climbing the tower three steps at a time, screaming for someone, for anyone. And then I find myself in front of the door to the crypts. It’s black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don’t want to. I’m afraid of what might be waiting for me. The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves at their feet and iron swords across their laps, but it’s not them I’m afraid of. I scream that I’m not a Stark, that this isn’t my place, but it’s no good, I have to go anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream.” He stopped, frowning, embarrassed. “That’s when I always wake.”

 

 

Jon wonders if Sam ever dreams of Horn Hill and Sam says that he doesn't insisting that he hated it there so it seems that prior to coming to the Wall that Sam has already put in some time at the School of Hard Knocks.

 

As Pyp suspected, Sam comes from a noble family; the Tarlys are an old line and Sam was until recently the heir to Horn Hill, its fertile lands, and the ancestral Valyrian blade called Heartsbane that has been in the family some five hundred years. Unfortunately for Sam he isn't the sort of son that Randyll thinks that he should have as his heir. Sam isn't athletic, he's fat, can't fight, he freaks out over the sight of blood and prefers intellectual and artistic pursuits.

 

Since Sam was Randyll's heir, Randyll did everything he could to toughen his kid up including having him beaten, humiliated, and starved. One time he even paid two warlocks who came up with the idea of having Sam bathe in the blood of a slaughtered bull but the ritual doesn't work so he ended up having the two men scourged.

 

Sam's mother has three daughters and then finally gives birth to Randyll's long awaited second son. After Sam's brother Dickon is born, Sam's father ignores Sam for a few years while giving Dickon all of his paternal affection and attention.

 

When Sam turns fifteen his father's men bring Sam out to the woods to meet his father where his father is skinning a deer. His father tells him that he's a worthless excuse for an heir and that he isn't going to be a man who is worthy enough to wield Heartsbane so he expects for Sam to join the Night's Watch and take the black. If Sam doesn't go to the Wall then the next day his father plans on making sure that Sam suffers an "accident" while hunting. Randyll says that he loves Sam's mother enough to make Sam's death look accidental if Sam chooses to force Randyll's hand by not joining the Watch.

 

Oh, and just to drive home the point, Randyll takes the bloody heart of the deer that he's skinning and squeezes it while telling Sam that it's either the Wall or he can end up like that deer because he would like nothing more than to hunt Sam down like the little pig that he thinks he is.

 

Jon notes that Sam doesn't cry when he tells this story and seems completely removed almost as though he's talking about somebody else.

 

After a few moments of silence Jon suggests they return back to the hall saying that they can drink and listen to one of Dareon's songs.

 

It turns out that Dareon was an apprentice singer before joining the Wall only Lord Rowan of the Golden Grove caught Dareon in bed with one of his daughters. Dareon claims he was there at the woman's invitation but the woman claims that it was rape and the implication is that she did this in order to protect herself after being caught by her father. Maester Ameon says that Dareon's voice is like "honey poured over thunder".

 

Sam is worried about how he'll have to fight tomorrow and just wants to go to bed. Jon returns to the hall and his friends wonder where he's been. Jon says that he was talking with Sam and the subject of what a craven Sam is comes up again. A couple of the guys make fun of him so Jon gets irritated and asks them to stop.

 

A silence falls and Jon tells them that they're going to go easy on Sam. All of the guys agree except Rast who basically says that he's going to beat Sam if Thorne asks him to do it.

 

Hours after they all go to bed, Rast suddenly finds himself awake with a snarling Ghost on his chest while Jon and some of the others remind him that they know where he sleeps so maybe he ought to reconsider whether or not he wants to take it easy on Sam.

 

From that day on Rast and the others refrain from hurting Sam. It takes a few more days but soon Sam is eating with Jon and the others. In two weeks Sam is talking and joking around with them like he's one of the group.

 

One night Sam goes to visit Jon in his cell and tells him that he knows that he's responsible for the change in the men's treatment of him. Sam confesses that he's never had a friend before. Jon tells Sam that they aren't friends but brothers.

 

Jon thinks to himself that Catelyn had always made sure he'd never been one of them and so even though he still loves his brothers Robb, Bran, and Rickon, he thinks it's true when Benjen said that the men of the Night's Watch are his brothers now.

Edited June 17, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Holmbo]

Aw Pyp and Grenn are great. I love them stepping up to Jon's side. I'm glad they're still alive in the books. Of course the whole wall seems like a giant time bomb anyway so I wouldn't put their odds at surviving the story as very good.

I was curious how much 20 stones was, which Jon thought Sam weighed, so I looked it up and it's 127 kg. I don't know if anyone else here uses kilo grams or if you're all Americans. Anyways, that is pretty heavy. Specially for a teen.

Bathing in bull blood should be pretty disgusting. That was some incompetent sorcerers I think. It seems sorcerers are really into blood overall in this series.

Edited June 17, 2015 by Holmbo

[Lady S.]

Seven hells, Randyll Tarly is a nasty piece of work. He'd like nothing more than to hunt his own son down like an animal? If it weren't for the Tysha incident, I'd say that steals the Worst Dad in the 7k title away from Tywin.

I liked reading about Jon's recurring crypt dream. Spooky. I also love Ghost comforting Sam. Underuse of the direwolves is probably my biggest problem with the adaptation. But Jon using Ghost to intimidate Rast is the coolest thing he does for a while, I love the warning about knowing where Rast sleeps.

Edited June 17, 2015 by Lady S.

[Avaleigh]

The deer scene in the show seems so inspired from the books now, I hadn't realized. 

 

Randyll can totally give Tywin a run for his money. We don't even know that much about him who knows what other stuff he has in his past. I can't help but think his wife got a bit of grief for three daughters in a row before finally giving him what he wanted with Dickon. I can totally see Dickon having a sad, sad *genuine* hunting accident.

 

I both blinked and smirked when Ghost started licking away Sam's tears. I'll show myself out now. 

[WearyTraveler]

I loved this chapter.  I liked that it showed Jon's internal moral compass. He could have made things easier for himself by ignoring Sam's issues, but he doesn't.  He takes it upon himself to do the right thing and stand up for the weaker guy.  Even though he grew up marginalized and hated by Catelyn and he sitll has some resentment about that, he did learn some of the best things Ned had to teach.  I suppose I'm overly naive or perhaps rigid in my thinking, but I adore good guys that do what's right when a more morally grey course would benefit them immensely.  Guess that's why I'm a sucker for good guys, he, he!

[Lady S.]

The inner moral compass despite having plenty of angst is a real standard of protagonists like Harry Potter, so I don't quite get people saying Jon was never set up as the Chosen One when so much of his story is textbook Hero's Journey.

Randyll can totally give Tywin a run for his money. We don't even know that much about him who knows what other stuff he has in his past. I can't help but think his wife got a bit of grief for three daughters in a row before finally giving him what he wanted with Dickon. I can totally see Dickon having a sad, sad *genuine* hunting accident.

I hope Dickon didn't buy into all of Randyll's bullshit, but if he was a good brother we'd probably have heard about it from Sam. Seems more like Jon is filling that void for him. It's so sad when Sam awkwardly introduces himself and later says he's never had a friend before.

[vibeology]

I would imagine that once he got another son, Randyll kept Dickon away from Sam so Sam couldn't taint Dickon. I agree that the Tarly brothers aren't close but I put the blame for that all on their awful father.

[Holmbo]

Yes I even think their was a mention in one of the Sam chapters about Randyll telling Sam to stay away from baby Dickon.

How many years is it supposed to be between those two brothers?

The way it's told make it feel like it's quiet a few years between them. Since Randyll had time to bath Sam in bull blood and everything. Maybe 8?

[WearyTraveler]

Yes I even think their was a mention in one of the Sam chapters about Randyll telling Sam to stay away from baby Dickon.

How many years is it supposed to be between those two brothers?

The way it's told make it feel like it's quiet a few years between them. Since Randyll had time to bath Sam in bull blood and everything. Maybe 8?

 

According to AWOIAF, it's only 4 years.  They have calculations with references and everything:

 

Dickon's age

Sam's age

 

That poor woman had Sam, 3 girls and then Dickon, all in the space of 5 years, just pop, pop, pop, one after the other!

[Holmbo]

Talk about impatient father.

My four year old isn't tough enough!

[Avaleigh]

Talk about impatient father.

My four year old isn't tough enough!

Heh, we saw how tough Ned was on three year old Rickon. 

 

I can't imagine what Tywin must have expected from four year old Jaime. We know on the show he told four year old Cersei that praying doesn't help a damned thing because he thinks the gods are basically cruel unmerciful bastards. That's pretty heavy stuff to lay on a kid after one of their parents dies. 

[WearyTraveler]

Winter is coming, yo!

[Holmbo]

Heh, we saw how tough Ned was on three year old Rickon.

Randyll Tarly: you won't be four forever. Grow strong! (Or whatever the Tarly words are)

[WearyTraveler]

Randyll Tarly: you won't be four forever. Grow strong! (Or whatever the Tarly words are)

 

"First in battle" (LOL!)

 

__________________________________

 

On a more serious tone, I'm going to ask you to remember Jon's dream about the crypts in Winterfell when we get to an upcoming Eddard chapter (not sure which one, as I warned you guys at the beginning, I'm already ahead in the reading, can't help myself, I guess)

[Last Time Lord]

According to AWOIAF, it's only 4 years. They have calculations with references and everything:

Dickon's age

Sam's age

That poor woman had Sam, 3 girls and then Dickon, all in the space of 5 years, just pop, pop, pop, one after the other!

I don't recognize this acronym.

[Avaleigh]

AWOIAF = A World of Ice and Fire.

"First in battle" (LOL!)

That really is too perfect. 

 

Will do about Jon's dream in Ned's chapter. (Interesting that there's a Jon dream in a Ned chapter.)

 

Speaking of Jon's dream in this latest chapter--the part that gets me is the way that he wants to scream that he isn't a Stark and that this isn't his place.

 

The other part that's striking to me is how he *knows* he has to go down there. 

[WearyTraveler]

AWOIAF = A World of Ice and Fire.

That really is too perfect. 

 

Will do about Jon's dream in Ned's chapter. (Interesting that there's a Jon dream in a Ned chapter.)

 

Speaking of Jon's dream in this latest chapter--the part that gets me is the way that he wants to scream that he isn't a Stark and that this isn't his place.

 

The other part that's striking to me is how he *knows* he has to go down there. 

 

It's a Ned dream.  I had forgotten about it, but I think you guys might see why I think it's significant after you re-read it.

 

I think it's interesting that Jon wakes up before he reaches his destination, as he is descending into darkness.  Perhaps this is early foreshadowing that 

when Jon is stabbed he will descend into darkness (death) and he will see the end of this dream

.  More on that when we reach the mentioned Ned chapter.

[Lady S.]

I would imagine that once he got another son, Randyll kept Dickon away from Sam so Sam couldn't taint Dickon. I agree that the Tarly brothers aren't close but I put the blame for that all on their awful father.

Yes, that makes more sense. I guess it's watching too many sitcoms that has given me an image of Sam as the soft nerd and Dickon as the brawny jock who could beat up his older bro.

AWOIAF = A World of Ice and Fire.

 

I believe in this case, it's a wiki of ice and fire. That site does have really helpful timeline/geography/heraldry info, though a lot of the credit goes to the posters editing it, not just the co-creators. These people clearly put more thought into the details than Evil Santa cares to.

[Avaleigh]

Eddard VI

 

Ned is totally over the tourney and it hasn't even started yet.

 

More men apparently equates more violence and disruption in the city and the head of the Gold Cloaks Janos Slynt insists that he needs more men if he is going to keep the peace.

 

Renly questions aloud whether or not Janos is fit for his position but Ned agrees that the City Watch will be allowed to add fifty new men to its ranks and tasks Littlefinger with finding the coin to pay for the new Gold Cloaks.

 

Littlefinger tries to act a little put out but Ned doesn't really have time for it and says that if Littlefinger was able to find the money for the tourney then he should be able to find a little extra to pay for security.

 

Ned is still unhappy that the tourney is happening at all but Pycelle and Littlefinger point out that there are benefits to having a tourney and that having one is good for the economy. Renly laughs when the subject of how much money the prostitutes are making comes up and remembers how his brother Stannis once proposed the idea of outlawing brothels altogether. The King upon hearing Stannis's proposal apprently wondered if Stannis would be up for outlawing eating, shitting, and breathing as well.

 

Renly continues and makes a dig about Shireen's appearance and then comments that Stannis goes to bed with Selyse like a man who is heading off to a battle--"with grim eyes and a determination to do his duty."

 

Ned is the only person who doesn't join in on the laughter when Renly makes this comment and instead asks when Stannis will return from Dragonstone and take up his seat on the small council. Littlefinger makes another crack about Stannis and whores that provokes more laughter so Ned decides that he's had enough for the day and adjourns the meeting.

 

Ned goes back to the Tower of the Hand and has Jory summoned to his chambers. Ned misses Catelyn, his sons, and Winterfell, and seems to wish that he could be there. While he's waiting for Jory he looks through the book that Pycelle has lent him that Jon Arryn was reading before he died. Ned is convinced that there's some truth hidden in the pages of the old book but so far he hasn't been able to discover whatever it is that Jon Arryn was searching for.

 

He reads up a bit on the section dedicated to House Lannister and muses a little on Lann the Clever. Apparently Lann the Clever is another figure from the Age of Heroes like Brandon the Builder only Lann the Clever is more popular with singers and storytellers.

 

Jory knocks and comes in and Ned tells him that he's to select twenty men to be commanded by Alyn to help assist with the City Watch. He asks if Jory found the stableboy Littlefinger spoke of and it seems that the stableboy is a watchman now and the distinction is almost as important to this kid as the shoe shining thing is to the character of Tommy in Goodfellas.

 

The kid doesn't have any good intel but we do learn from him that Jon Arryn was sweet to his horses. 

 

Frustrated that they aren't getting any decent information from the people that Littlefinger turned Ned onto, Ned begins to think about what he learned of Ser Hugh of the Vale via Jory.

 

It seems that Ser Hugh was an arrogant prick when dealing with Jory and essentially told Jory that he wasn't important enough to talk with him. He thinks that if the Hand of the King wants to talk to him then he can do it himself. 

 

Ned doesn't get much from the other servants but he does learn that Jon Arryn had visited a master armorer before he died to commission a new suit of plate. It seems that Stannis was with Jon when made the commission. The watchman says that Lord Arryn was healthy and after further questioning adds that Lord Arryn went with Stannis to a brothel one time.

 

Ned is basically like 'Hang on, really? A brothel?' Jory says though that the watchman insists that it's true and Ned is annoyed once again that Lysa took everyone with any decent information with her to the Vale.

 

Jory wonders if Ned is going to summon Stannis back from Dragonstone but Ned says that he isn't going to. Not yet.

 

Ned wonders why Stannis decided to leave the capital and finds it doubtful that Stannis could have been intimidated in any way considered what a hardass he proved himself to be during a year long siege at Storm's End.

 

Ned thinks that he needs to dress to impress with the armorer and while he's changing he talks a bit with Jory about his impressions of Renly Baratheon. So far Ned doesn't quite know what to think of Renly but he does linger on a weird moment between them where Renly shows Ned a miniature of Margaery Tyrell and seems to maybe hope that Ned thinks that Margaery looks a bit like Ned's dead sister Lyanna. Ned thinks the entire encounter is odd.

 

Ned's horse is waiting for him and he sets off with a small guard to visit the armorer that Jon Arryn and Stannis went to see.

 

As he's leaving the Mud Gate is being opened and Lord Beric Dondarrion has rolled into town to fight in the Hand's tourney. Crowds cheer for him and Beric declares that he is there to win the tourney.

 

When Ned gets to the armory they note that he's the new Hand and do everything they can to give him the VIP treatment. It doesn't take the armorer long to get to the point that his work is expensive. Ned drinks wine and lets the armorer chatter for a bit. Renly Baratheon an Loras Tyrell both shop there so the implication from the armorer is that his armory is the most fashionable.

 

Ned questions the armorer and the man admits that neither Lord Arryn nor Lord Stannis asked him to have anything made. It seems that Jon and Stannis went to the armorer's place to visit with a boy who worked there. Ned immediately says that he wants to see this boy as well so the armorer reluctantly brings the boy, Gendry, out.

 

Ned makes note of Gendry's work on a helm and offers to buy it but Gendry tells him bluntly that it isn't for sale. The armorer is a little pissed and says that Gendry should really just give it to Ned for free because he's Hand but Gendry stubbornly insists that he made the helm for himself. The armorer apologizes for Gendry's behavior but Ned doesn't seem to mind.

 

Ned asks Gendry what he and Jon talked about and Gendry says that Jon mostly asked him questions about his mother. It turns out that his mother was a blonde.

 

Ned wonders if Stannis questioned Gendry at all and Gendry says that Stannis never says a word to him; he just glares at Gendry to the point where he makes the kid feel like he's a criminal rapist of some kind.

 

Ned gives Gendry a long look and determines that he is indeed Robert's bastard. Ned wants to know who paid Gendry's apprentice fees and the armorer says that a lord paid twice the usual fee in order to maintain discretion.

 

Ned tells the armorer that if Gendry ever decides that he wants to start fighting instead of forging that the armorer should send Gendry over to him.

 

As Ned is leaving he tells the armorer that if he ever wants to own a helm that will frighten children then he knows just the place to go.

 

One of Ned's men asks Ned if he has found anything and Ned says that he did and then wonders to himself what Jon had wanted with the bastard of a king and why it seems as though it was this that ended up costing him his life.

Edited June 18, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Avaleigh]

So, that moment with Renly and Ned where Renly is showing Ned Margaery's picture, for a second I was surprised that Renly was already apparently thinking about marrying Margaery but then I realized that Renly was trying to get Ned to say that the miniature looked like Lyanna so that Renly could go running to Robert saying that even Ned Stark says that Margaery looks like Lyanna so why don't you meet her and then we can see what to do about getting rid of Cersei.

 

It makes sense to me why Cersei felt that she couldn't afford to wait getting rid of Robert or he'd rid himself of her first.

 

Beric Dondarrion had an interesting little introduction. I was surprised that the crowds cheered him on just for riding through the gate. I guess he's a big deal.

 

I sort of respect Ned for not laughing about Stannis behind his back but at the same time I'm again reminded of he how uptight he is. Like, he doesn't even get an internal chuckle at the truth in Renly's statement? 

 

I love that he misses Catelyn. I'm coming out of this reread having a new respect for their marriage and I sort of wish that he'd found it in him to completely trust her before he died. 

[Last Time Lord]

I can't remember, has the show gone into detail about Sam's family? I'm pretty sure finding out that Sam's family are Bannermen for House Tyrell is new information to me.

Or I'm just extremely forgetful.

[Lady S.]

Book Renly is such an asshole about his own niece, that's my one big D&D whitewashing gripe. If this is how he talks about his own flesh and blood, then I totally believe that he was only good to Bri in person and sniggered with Loras about her looks behind her back.

As I believe Loras later tells Jaime.

All of the Baratheon bros are meant to be assholes, just like the three York bros were murdering assholes. If Bobby is Eddie IV, and Stan is Dickie III, then Renly is George of Clarence, and D&D making him a foolish pretender who only meant well is like Shakespeare turning Georgieboy into one of Gloucester's victims.

 

I'm glad the show nixed the Renly scheming to Anne Boleyn Margy with King Bob plot, since the thought of super fat and almost always aggressively drunk Robert with a 14yo squicks me out. I do wanna say that I think this plot means Book Renly did know about the twincest and was just waiting til Bob/Marg were a confirmed coupling before revealing it to him, because otherwise Mace and Loras are only signing on to make her stepmother to the real heirs, which is not a great gig for such a valuable bride.

 

The other thing I wanted to say about Renly is that his green-and-gold armor and green-and-gold doublets seem like the earliest hint of Renly/Loras. Wouldn't you expect the king's brother to wear the royal colors instead of his former squire's? At the very least, it shows obvious Tyrell sympathies.

 

I love that he misses Catelyn. I'm coming out of this reread having a new respect for their marriage and I sort of wish that he'd found it in him to completely trust her before he died.

I don't think it's just an issue of trust, so much as it being hard to undo a lie that big after years and years. When he first told it, he and Cat barely knew each other so he really couldn't trust her, and since then he's just been doing his best to repress and ignore this secret whenever the memory bubbles up in his mind. It's also hard to judge without knowing the terms of his promise to Lyanna, maybe she made him promise not to share Jon's paternity with another soul, and that's why he's so determined to take it to his grave.

 

I do think Ned needs to lighten the hell up about this tourney, but maybe the tourney at Harrenhal ruined the whole concept for him.

 

I can't remember, has the show gone into detail about Sam's family? I'm pretty sure finding out that Sam's family are Bannermen for House Tyrell is new information to me.

No, your memory's fine. It's mentioned at least once that he's from the Reach, but the Tyrells aren't namedropped as overlords.

I just realized that another moment I'm looking forward to reading again because it was cut from the show was the whole business between Stannis and that badass Ser Cortenay Penrose. Penrose was a guy that even Ned would have respected. Another decision Stannis made that was totally wrong IMO.

Are you planning to do a Clash re-read after Game? No pressure, though, maybe some of us can alternate the chapter summaries since it feels like an unfair burden on you to do for multiple books.