Spoilers and Discussion

[tom87]

I think this was part of it but really what were they going to do during season 6 if Finn had lived?  A protracted version of her Hollywood adventures (but set in New York) where instead of her pilot failing it got picked up and then on her hiatus she makes a successful movie.  Because Rachel having wild success after wild success in various entertainment mediums would have gotten old real quick.  That is why it was a mistake to pull the trigger on Funny Girl so early and the reason they made that mistake is because of RM's stupid "I'm Home" ending which it seems was his plan so he could end the show at the place that he considered the heart of it - the choir room.  Finn and Rachel's individual stories and their story as a couple seemed to all be in service to that concept.  Finn's especially since it seems Rachel was at least going to get to experience a lot of success away from Lima while Finn was relegated to riding the whiteboard by the second half of season 4.  

They probably would have had her dating a older man and  her story be still intersecting with Finn as he dated someone.

 

Look at season 6 for Klaine and Brittana it is all relationship.  That is what they write even though they do it badly.

[caracas1914]

I thought  Glee  telegraphed where Rachel's storyline was going , when after she dumped Male Whore Brody in "Guilty Pleasures", out of the blue she told Kurt/Santana she was looking forward to dating older men.

 

My guess is  the plan was Rachel was going to date a co-star or director, much much older.  It would have made the statement he was an inevitable midgame LI without egging her or getting paid for sex with other women. Finn would date Nurse Penny and Finchel would both break up with their midgames, older but wiser in the games of love, with Rachel scurrying back to Lima for the fade out in the classroom/ or choir room.

 

Cory's (and Finn's as a character)death  changed all that.   It seems the show wanted her (inevitably) dating again and Sam is the default only character left to hook her up with.   They only lasted as long as they did keeping her single because of the cries of bad taste if they would have done something sooner, and even then, they "tested" the waters in "Moving Out."

 

I certainly don't think SamCedes is a romance for the ages...but  how they are hooking up Rachel/Sam now doesn't sit well with me.  The overtones of it just annoy me for a myriad of reasons, and the tweeners who scream about their legendary "chemistry" annoy me even more.  LOL.

Edited December 29, 2014 by caracas1914

[camussie]

I think the plan was for Finn to date Nurse Penny and Rachel to date her director or co-star in season 5 but I don't think either relationship would have lasted into season 6.  I still think it is entirely likely the rough plan was to end season 5 with Rachel's FG debut (after concurrent summer arcs in Lima & NY where Finn, Tina, Artie, and Sam stayed in Lima while Blaine moved to NY) and in a moment of sheer exuberance at her successful debut she would have asked Finn to move to NY and get back together with her.  That is if he hadn't already located there already due to ratings forcing the issue.  If ratings had forced the issue, and Finn was already in NY, it could have been her asking him to get back together.  Either way, after that cliffhanger, the answer would have been no as they obviously were not going to reunite until the last 5 minutes of the series.  From there we would have had the year time jump to season 6 with Rachel deciding to pursue other opportunities at that time.

 

As for why I think that could have been the rough plan?  I think it was probably always in the cards for Rachel to get bored with "Funny Girl" but it would have made so much sense for that to happen a year after her debut versus a month.  That would, in turn, would have kept her in good standing on Broadway, which would have fit in with RM's plan for her to find success on Broadway as well as other venues before she and Finn reunited.  

 

As for season 6 romances, while Rachel racked up career success after career success and Finn rode the white board (or went to college if the show was NY based), either they would have been alone with the occasional hook-up with each other and/or they both would have had yet another mid game LI.  I lean towards the first one but again this is my point - it seems that RM and team were just going to spin their wheels when it came to Finn and Rachel both individually and as a couple after Rachel's FG debut.  Not all that shocking as they seemed to have no plan for Finn beyond riding the white board after they gave him a whole 5 episode (404-409) finding his passion arc (with a coda in 419)

 

As for Sam/Rachel, they annoy me for many reasons and no not because I don't think Rachel should move forward into a new romance.  I actually think she should be I also think the better route to take would be to move her forward with someone who was different from Finn and who also wasn't in the "business."  i have been saying for over a year I think the best way to move Rachel forward would be to have it be with someone who is older and who also is successful in his own field i.e. a doctor, attorney, tech entrepreneur, real estate agent, etc.  

Edited December 29, 2014 by camussie

[tom87]

Pissed Rachel didn't  get to move on to an older guy.   Especially with Finn out of the picture.

 

I'd think Sam might be the worse case scenario. One, he loves someone else, he is isn't very mature, Rachel in reality would eat him up.  And he is in freakin Lima not NY.

 

I'd even take Jesse, Artie or Mike over Sam. My preference  someone new and I agree someone not really in the business certainly not a performer.

Edited December 29, 2014 by tom87

[Advance35]

I'd think Sam might be the worse case scenario. One, he loves someone else, he is isn't very mature, Rachel in reality would eat him up.  And he is in freakin Lima not NY.

 

I think RIB have Rachel Berry ear marked for a certain type.   Galatically stupid, mediocre in terms of talent (Show Biz talent that is), wishy-washy and a little spineless.  I thought that was sort of a joke on Rachel's character.   The girl will have success (since she'll do anything to get it) but on a personal level she'll always come in last because look at who she ends up with.   As the show wore on it became clear that they thought Finn was a prize.   Rachel, true to character or "in reality" would have destroyed Finn Hudson as well.   The only reason her ending up with him (Sam) doesn't' bother me is because this show has worn out a majority of the investment I once had and because I think Chord is much better looking.

 

But again I don't think this show has ever valued Rachel's emotional growth or outlook.  We never got Rachel's thoughts on Shelby adopting Beth.  We never got anything on her potential feelings with regards to Shelby coaching the "Trouble Tones".   Why go for General Emotional Beats. Once I accepted that I became Pro-Sam/Rachel for his abs and maybe because I read a good fanfic.

Edited December 29, 2014 by Advance35

[dizzyizzy01]

Subtlety, nuance and character development does not appear to be something these show-runners/writers care about.  

[camussie]

But again I don't think this show has ever valued Rachel's emotional growth or outlook

 

 

That certainly isn't restricted to just Rachel.  For example, neither Will nor Finn got much of a POV about the pregnancy lies that Terri and Quinn told and that other people helped keep hidden.  Not once did Will get to say anything to Quinn about her going along with Terri's plan.  Finn really got no reaction to the entire Glee club (save Rachel) being willing to throw his future under the bus so that the team could stay together for sectionals.  With "Hell-O" all of that was glossed over because RM and team were  ready to move onto other stories. I still say the non follow through to the arcs that dominated the first 13 was the canary in the coal mine for the mess that was to come including Rachel getting no reaction to Shelby screwing her over more than once.  

 

I should be clear that not all stories/characters need a lot of follow through.  For example, I thought the follow-through we got on how Artie felt about Tina dating Mike was right because it wasn't a main story and Artie wasn't a lead character but when it comes to the lead's stories/A plots they should have gotten more follow through than what it takes to get to the next song.

Edited December 29, 2014 by camussie

[Myrna123]

It's like Murphy and company want every single scene in every single episode to be an absolute blank canvass upon which they can make whatever the hell they want happen regardless of anything that happened in past episodes or anything they want to happen in future episodes.  A Brady Bunch Variety Hour for the new millennium.

[jaytee1812]

That certainly isn't restricted to just Rachel.  For example, neither Will nor Finn got much of a POV about the pregnancy lies that Terri and Quinn told and that other people helped keep hidden.  Not once did Will get to say anything to Quinn about her going along with Terri's plan.  Finn really got no reaction to the entire Glee club (save Rachel) being willing to throw his future under the bus so that the team could stay together for sectionals.  With "Hell-O" all of that was glossed over because RM and team were  ready to move onto other stories. I still say the non follow through to the stories that dominated the first 13 was the canary in the coal mine for the mess that was to come including Rachel getting no reaction to Shelby screwing her over more than once.  

Did we ever find out for certain that Will knew about Quinn giving Terri her baby?

 

I should be clear that not all stories/characters need a lot of follow through.  For example, I thought the follow-through we got on how Artie felt about Tina dating Mike was right because it wasn't a main story and Artie wasn't a lead character but when it comes to the lead's and the A stories they should have gotten more follow through than what it takes to get to the next song.

He looked sadly at them dancing together once. Of course the best follow through would be him becoming a better person, but no.

[Pink ranger]

During their fight in Mattress Will asked Terri what she was going to do after her due date came and she answered Quinn so he did defiantly know.

Edited December 29, 2014 by Pink ranger

[caracas1914]

I get that the show doesn't go for nuanced or emotional growth or even character development.

 

On a visceral level it just annoys me that Rachel may end with the stupidest inert block of wood on the planet.   Fuck,  in comparison even Brittany looked positively genius next to Sam. 

[dizzyizzy01]

On a visceral level it just annoys me that Rachel may end with the stupidest inert block of wood on the planet.   Fuck,  in comparison even Brittany looked positively genius next to Sam.

 

 

Oh certainly.  It's annoying and awful on pretty much every level.  My friends all think I'm insane for still watching this show.

[Ann Mack]

Pissed Rachel didn't  get to move on to an older guy.   Especially with Finn out of the picture.

 

I'd think Sam might be the worse case scenario. One, he loves someone else, he is isn't very mature, Rachel in reality would eat him up.  And he is in freakin Lima not NY.

 

I'd even take Jesse, Artie or Mike over Sam. My preference  someone new and I agree someone not really in the business certainly not a performer.

 

I'm fairly sure that these whack writers have already forgotten ALL the words of love, commitment, and the prospect of a future together they wrote for Sam and Mercedes in season 5. How dare anyone think that instead of Rachel chasing after probably the best female friend she (Rachel) has EVER had ex-boyfriend that maybe she would concentrate on getting her career together. Especially after a spoiler stated that Sam will admit to Rachel that "he still loves Mercedes". Honestly these have got to be the WORST writers in the history of TV even worst than the hacks that destroyed "Heroes"! They want to show Rachel moving on fine, but why just why do they have to make it with someone who initially isn't even feeling her? So what she pursues him until he does? So many different ways they could have her move on. Pairing her with the last available able body guy who is still in love with someone else and Rachel's friend no doubt (who cares if he has abs or looks good) in Lima (or at least the only available one they are willing to give screen time to) screams of laziness, stupidity, and just horrific story telling. Oh well even saying "oh but it's Glee" doesn't cover this mess!

Edited December 30, 2014 by Ann Mack

[Anna Yolei]

Pissed Rachel didn't get to move on to an older guy. Especially with Finn out of the picture.

Originally, Rachel was going to cheat on Finn with this guy, so I'm glad we were spared that warmed over rehashed story yet again.

[phoenixrising]

I hate the idea of Rachel and Sam because, it also seems like Sam is becoming Finn 2.0. That just doesn't sit right with me. I also just don't get the Samchel vibe at all. Its random and it's obvious that the writers just want too hook Rachel up with somebody/anybody. I also wanted someone new- if they had to have her have a LI, someone new was always my feeling.

This.

Also, I find it highly uncomfortable to put her with any of the glee guys. If I was in Sam's shoes, I'd be constantly comparing myself to Finn, and I would feel weird banging my dead friend's girlfriend. I also find it an incredibly shitty position to put Chord in. Sam also doesn't need to complete his Glee girl's dating record.

Also, they've casted new newbies, new warblers, vocal adnerline, and they couldn't take the time to cast a new guy, just to be Rachel's rebound guy who doesn't need to be that much a part of the story? This is ridiculous, and with the many ways Glee's fucked up, I think this might be the worst.

[tom87]

Originally, Rachel was going to cheat on Finn with this guy, so I'm glad we were spared that warmed over rehashed story yet again.

Huh?  Rachel and Finn had not been officially a couple since the end of season 3.  She would not have been cheating on him.  She didn't even mention an older guy until after she broke it off with Brody.

 

And speaking of rehash we get it, plus no one is arguing in favor of Sam and Rachel here anyway.

Edited December 30, 2014 by tom87

[KatWay]

It's really saying something that the Sam/Rachel thing is making want to burn stuff a lot more than the Karovsky/Blaine thing. Mainly because let's face it Blaine's storylines have always been all over the place and this does seem like one last FU from the writers to all the fans involved (you wanted Klaine? Muahaha! You wanted Kurtovsky? Muahaha! You wanted Kurt and Blaine single and out of each others orbits forever? Muahaha!) but the Sam/Rachel thing I fear is them actually thinking anybody wants Rachel to end up with the last available guy in Glee, who also hasn't been through her yet in his rotation of all of Glee's girls. And who was put on Glee to be Finn 2.0. and now basically also takes over his storyline (back in Lima, finding purpose there) and his love interest. As someone who liked Finn until the bitter end (both for the character and real life) that is so incredibly awful I don't even want to watch this crap. And no amount of crap they put out so far has made me stop watching so I have a pretty good tolerance.

 

What the hell was wrong with giving Rachel a new, baggage-less love interest? Or just having her end the show alone? She could have had a fling, to signal she was "ready for love" again (though not with Sam, of all people) and then decided to focus on her career for now, but making it clear that love is in her future.

[caracas1914]

Just to be clear, I don't think Sam is the worst or most toxic character , and as mentioned the Blainofsky pairing is probably WTF worse and unhealthy, but pairing Rachel with him is almost like they couldn't spare the time or effort for their leading character anymore.

Say what you will about Glee and Rachel, her SL's weren't throwaway, they mattered, as fucked up as they could get. This is just such a lazy hookup, almost like giving her a random Facebook just because, though even that might have been more interesting because if they showed Rachel had an itch to scratch without love...

This way we have to go with tired completely fabricated overtures that she has "feelings" for him and Sam has to be rebooted yet again to get his dick aligned with yet another love of his life. It's just such a superfluous and throwaway pairing that it makes Samcedes and Bram seem epic in comparison. And that's saying something.

[tom87]

I really would have been fine with a flash-forward to her getting her Tony or even at least back on stage with a a handsome mature man in the wings filled with pride as Rachel rushes off to give him a hug. 

Edited December 30, 2014 by tom87

[caracas1914]

Definitely.

The problem now is the show has to " pad" their relationship to make it somehow worthy, and it's too way late to try to flesh Sam's character out when he's been the ultimate "pair the spare" .

You could somewhat rationalize Rachel adjusting/compromising/sacrificing with Finn because of their shared history but with Sam it's like they also have to most likely rereboot her ( instead of just him) to make this pairing work. (In addition to increasing his IQ ) It's echoes of what made the " im tired of Broadway stardom after a month' SL so unpleasant.

Rachel happy in a relationship with someone not artificially and implausibly built up would give the signal she's recovering her own balance, as opposed to dragging her back to Lima high school days. Unlike the other kids she branched out and got actual tangible ( if fleeting) success away from Lima, Ohio.

Even if Sam is "noble" enough to give Rachel up as he did Brittany and Mercedes, or so help me, echoes of what Finn did in Season 3 there is nothing that indicates there is anything other than plot convenience at stake.

Edited December 30, 2014 by caracas1914

[jaytee1812]

I had a bizarre dream about the Glee finale (including Kurt graduating NYADA in his Dalton uniform). I still bet it makes more sense than the actual episode!

[Advance35]

Huh?  Rachel and Finn had not been officially a couple since the end of season 3.  She would not have been cheating on him.  She didn't even mention an older guy until after she broke it off with Brody.

And speaking of rehash we get it, plus no one is arguing in favor of Sam and Rachel here anyway.

 

I did think that guy from twilight was casted to be Rachel's love interest.  Peter something.   I would have been in favor of it but they decided to go elsewhere.   Were Rachel and Finn even a thing when he died or were they just "friends"?   Not that it matters.

 

If they gave Rachel a new love interest, they would have to give him screen time to explain who he is, how he and Rachel connect and etc.   I don't think that would go over well with the masses.   There would be screeches and scrails of "Why must I see some newbie.....blah blah blah."   Sam is a known quantity of a sort.   I could see them  leaving it ambiguous as to whether she and Sam work out long term, a kind of choose your ending (for those so inclined).  Or they could decide that Rachel get's to have a defined and happy personal life because she in fact WONT realize her dreams of being a "STAR".   I would think it would make at least some people on THIS board happy considering the appetite I've seen for the Rachel Berry Character's defeat/loss and final acknowledgement that others are as/more talented than she is.  

 

I hated Finn Hudson, what happen with CM was terrible but I don't miss the character.   I HATED Finn and Rachel together (even though I hated Rachel the first few seasons, I always found her entertaining if she was away from Finn) but for some reason Sam and Rachel doesn't make me want to face plant.   Sam is better looking and for some reason more likeable to me.   Though I take a season of flirtation with Sam/Rachel and happily accept a Jesse/Rachel conclusion but Groff is busy.

[caracas1914]

Listen I know kevin/Artie has always been minor supporting character but so far I get the impression they keep him in New York with only visits to Lima?

Actually that's fine with me. Artie living the film school life in Brooklyn.

It sure looks like they are going to have Mercedes have the most commercial success (off screen of course) as a recording star because I can't see these predictable writers having her not with a LI ( Sam) without being compensated with a career reward.

Edited December 30, 2014 by caracas1914

[tom87]

I would think it would make at least some people on THIS board happy considering the appetite I've seen for the Rachel Berry Character's defeat/loss and final acknowledgement that others are as/more talented than she is.

 

Maybe here but I have seen many a haters even say Rachel not ending up back on Bway is a injustice to her character. 

 

Yale, Brown, Film School, NYADA, Joffrey,  Air Force,  not one but 2 record deals all shows how worthless all the other kids are, so sad

Listen I know kevin/Artie has always been minor supporting character but so far I get the impression they keep him in New York with only visits to Lima?

Actually that's fine with me. Artie living the film school life in Brooklyn.

It sure looks like they are going to have Mercedes have the most commercial success (off screen of course) as a recording star because I can't see these predictable writers having her not with a LI ( Sam) without being compensated with a career reward.

Probably but weak reasons for being back. 

 

Still have to wonder why they kept Kevin and not Jenna?

[Advance35]

Maybe here but I have seen many a haters even say Rachel not ending up back on Bway is a injustice to her character.

 

It would hardly be the first. The more I think about it, the more I wish the writers had gone forward with Peter Francinelli.  I still laugh at how calm he was during Rachel's freak out during Santana's audition and how he seemed to take her in stride.  Sigh.  Oh well another lost "What could have been" to add to the pile.

 

Yale, Brown, Film School, NYADA, Joffrey,  Air Force,  not one but 2 record deals all shows how worthless all the other kids are, so sad

 

Truly breaks the heart.

 

[caracas1914]

Tina, Mike, Artie, Quinn and Kurt all still in school doesn't surprise me, even with Glee they were snips that they were all book smart.

The irony is that the "arts in education" theme rings hollow since these kids are precisely the ones I expected to go on to college regardless, whether they were in Glee or not.

Meanwhile, Sam never went to college, Blaine flunks out, and Mercedes, Rachel, Brittany and Santana all quit/drop out.

Pucks trajectory in the Air Force makes sense though in a better show they would have bothered to show how the arts helped him even indirectly in that life path.

Edited December 30, 2014 by caracas1914

[Glorfindel]

  Or they could decide that Rachel get's to have a defined and happy personal life because she in fact WONT realize her dreams of being a "STAR".   I would think it would make at least some people on THIS board happy considering the appetite I've seen for the Rachel Berry Character's defeat/loss and final acknowledgement that others are as/more talented than she is.  

Even though a lot of people (here and/or elsewhere) indeed probably are of the opinion that Rachel behaved like a total brat at both NYADA and with 'Funny Girl' so therefore rightfully deserved her downfall and her having to eat some humblepie in season 6, I don't think that many would actually want Rachel to end up as a teacher in Lima and NOT to achieve her goals of becoming a succesful Broadway performer in the end.

Maybe showing her winning a Tony award in the last scene is unattainable now (and imo unfair and unwanted without a proper timejump), but having Rachel slowly but steadily starting her musical career back up in the last episodes, with the hinted promise that she eventually will become a star, would be a satisfying and deserved ending for her hardly anyone would begrudge her.

 

Not only because from day 1 it was telegraphed loud and clear that Rachel was meant to succeed and be a Broadway star (and we were meant to root for her), so refusing her that in the end would be completely betraying one of the first and biggest set-ups from the entire series.

But also because with her character and temper Rachel would probably be a terrible teacher, and she belongs anywhere else but playing house with an assistent football coach in Lima.

 

 

As for the acknowledgment that other characters are more talented than Rachel:

First of all, I don't think it was ever suggested or established on Glee that other characters were more talented than Rachel, at the most that 2-3 were on par with her and talented in their own right.

I understand it must sting for some of her fans that Rachel is not considered the most special and talented one on the show all the damn time, but others being seen as talented as her and even having small successes once in a while does not diminish or take away one iota from Rachel's own talent. She still got chosen to be a lead in a Broadway show practically fresh out of high school, so I guess I don't see how her talent was denied or diminished on the show because of other characters' accomplishments and ambitions.

 

And those characters of which was said they were as talented as Rachel (IIRC Kurt, Mercedes and Blaine, maybe Santana) aren't doing that bad at the moment, with Mercedes having a record deal and her, Santana and Brittany touring the country, while Kurt's still working on his own performing career in New York and studying at NYADA (and they better have him return to NYADA at the end of season 6). As for Blaine: not a very impressive career for him yet, but he's being worshipped by the Warblers again so he and his fans are probably happy too.

The other kids from glee club are also faring quite well: Mike is at the prestigious ballet school Joffrey, Tina is at Brown, Quinn at Yale, and Artie is studying to become a director. Even bad boy Puck has an honorable career in the Air Force now. 

Not bad for a bunch of misfits. So I'd say fans of those characters are satisfied for the most part (not saying they are satisfied with the lack of screentime, songs and good storylines for their characters, but that's another discussion), and tbh I dont think any of them would want to trade what their favorite characters got in the end with how RIB have treated Rachel's career the last seasons.

Edited December 30, 2014 by Glorfindel

[truthaboutluv]

I did think that guy from twilight was casted to be Rachel's love interest.  Peter something.   I would have been in favor of it but they decided to go elsewhere.   Were Rachel and Finn even a thing when he died or were they just "friends"?   Not that it matters.

 

 

Unless I'm mistaken, I do think Rachel was going to have a romance with either Peter's character or the guy cast to play her love interest in the play. What changed was Cory, and by that token, Finn dying. The writers likely felt that viewers would not buy Rachel happily and quickly moving on that quickly, after Finn's death, particularly with a new character. 

 

No, she and Finn weren't together when he died but their last scene was a nice phone call where he gave her a pep talk before she nailed her audition. I do think there was supposed to be more between them before the season ended but Cory was in rehab and was unavailable to film the last few episodes of the season. However in a sadly twisted way, that last scene ended up being pretty poignant. 

 

It's really saying something that the Sam/Rachel thing is making want to burn stuff a lot more than the Karovsky/Blaine thing. Mainly because let's face it Blaine's storylines have always been all over the place and this does seem like one last FU from the writers to all the fans involved (you wanted Klaine? Muahaha! You wanted Kurtovsky? Muahaha! You wanted Kurt and Blaine single and out of each others orbits forever? Muahaha!) but the Sam/Rachel thing I fear is them actually thinking anybody wants Rachel to end up with the last available guy in Glee, who also hasn't been through her yet in his rotation of all of Glee's girls.

 

 

Agreed. Like I've said, I don't care what RIB say, I'll never buy that they sincerely believe ANYONE really wanted to see a Blaine and Karofsky pairing - they just did it anyway because they don't give a shit and probably tell themselves a pissed off, outraged reaction is a reaction anyway and that I don't know, people will still watch out of morbid curiosity. However, I can definitely buy that they genuinely believe fans will like Sam and Rachel together.

 

Again, they all but telegraphed it with neon colors (because they know nothing about subtlety) barely a few episodes after Finn's death. And it seemed like they only pulled back because many of the fans were vocal about feeling it was too soon for Rachel to already be moving on and with someone Finn was friends with. Lea Michele even stated as much in an interview when asked about a possible Sam/Rachel pairing, that the fans weren't happy with Rachel moving on so soon and I think even Darren of all people stated in some interview that it was probably too soon for a possible Sam/Rachel pairing.

 

That's why I'm not the least bit surprised by these spoilers because I always felt that it was really just a matter of time with Rachel and Sam, especially as the writers were willing to hint at and suggest it so soon after Finn's death. I can absolutely see them thinking enough time has passed now that people will love it. Of course that ignores the Sam/Mercedes relationship they spent a number of episodes building last season. But once again, these are the people who have Blaine dating Kurt's former tormentor seemingly right up to the episode before they have him and Kurt get married. 

Edited December 30, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[Glorfindel]

Glee has done some horrible storylines, and I agree Samchel is right up there with the worst of them, but to me Blainofsky shacking up together and then having Klaine get married only a few weeks later is still the biggest WTF?!?

 

On the upside: Blainofsky destroys the 'epic' Klaine soulmates lovestory so completely that only a few diehard Klainers will be left happy in the end. The rest of the fans will simply shrug and/or already have tuned out.

Not that I think any group of the Glee fandom has much influence on the ratings (anymore) anyway, as most of the initial fans have already left long ago, so it will be interesting to see if the remaining GA appreciates the utter crap of season 6 and how low the ratings will go accordingly. So maybe I'll get lucky and Glee gets pulled from the air before Klaine reunite.

[Advance35]

As for the acknowledgment that other characters are more talented than Rachel:

First of all, I don't think it was ever suggested or established on Glee that other characters were more talented than Rachel, at the most that 2-3 were on par with her and talented in their own right.

I understand it must sting for some of her fans that Rachel is not considered the most special and talented one on the show all the damn time, but others being seen as talented as her and even having small successes once in a while does not diminish or take away one iota from Rachel's own talent. She still got chosen to be a lead in a Broadway show practically fresh out of high school, so I guess I don't see how her talent was denied or diminished on the show because of other characters' accomplishments and ambitions.

 

I honestly don't know what fans you are referring to or how you segued into that whole tangent actually, I never said her talent was denied or diminished by anyone.  WOW.

 

Unless I'm mistaken, I do think Rachel was going to have a romance with either Peter's character or the guy cast to play her love interest in the play. What changed was Cory, and by that token, Finn dying. The writers likely felt that viewers would not buy Rachel happily and quickly moving on that quickly, after Finn's death, particularly with a new character.

No, she and Finn weren't together when he died but their last scene was a nice phone call where he gave her a pep talk before she nailed her audition. I do think there was supposed to be more between them before the season ended but Cory was in rehab and was unavailable to film the last few episodes of the season. However in a sadly twisted way, that last scene ended up being pretty poignant.

 

I really liked the Director and Rachel in scenes together.  It was cool to see her interact with different people.   I wish they had followed through on that.  I guess I never gave much gravitas to Finn and Rachel because it always came off so superficial to me.  I never GOT them or what they saw in each other.  Finn's looks (subjective and I'll leave it at that), he wasn't in anyway intelligent (not even street smart), he didn't come from a financially endowed background (making him an interesting counterpoint to Jesse, who did give that impression).   I think Rachel liked having a Quarterback as a boyfriend.   I think she felt like she "won" a prize in her ongoing competition with the rest of the world (which would be a fascinating and compelling story IMO, if Glee were the kind of thing where storylines that extend beyond PSA's were given attention in the writers room).

 

I do remember the scenes of "testing" between Sam and Rachel in NY.  I was a little surprised but I wasn't put off.   Lea managed to convince me that Rachel was drawn to Sam on a physical level and was flustered, though not offended, by his flirtation.

 

As far as Sam and Rachel go now, well I think they are filming Episode 10 now aren't they?  Hmmmmmm.   Whether they will actually have Rachel and Sam end up together is becoming one of the few things I'm curious to see play out this season.

Edited December 30, 2014 by Advance35

[caracas1914]

Glee has done some horrible storylines, and I agree Samchel is right up there with the worst of them, but to me Blainofsky shacking up together and then having Klaine get married only a few weeks later is still the biggest WTF?!?

 

 

Ain't that the truth.  A viewer can be either indifferent/ antipathetic/ or favor Klaine, but regardless anyone possessing a brain could see in a heartbeat how completely wrong this SL is.   It's not even as if they can pretend it's amnesia, since Blaine recently babbled per  "Tested" how he loved that he helped/protected Kurt during the dark Karofsky bullying days.

 

So Blaine  goes from fucking Karofsky in their love shack to somehow getting married to Kurt in record time.  I dunno, maybe Klaine should live together for the 3th or 4th attempt  to see if they can actually get along?  It's hilarious.   I especially love the fact that Burt Hummel who had to transfer  his son from his school because of the imminent danger of said bullying  has to be dragged into to officiate the shotgun Klaine wedding to give it a blessing.  Talk about full circle fucked up dynamics.  The writers even with Finchel wrote them scenes discussing their relationship but with Klaine I fully expect the writers to completely ignore again  all the reasons why they should wait. When you have a villanous  Sue being the engine to drag them back together that speaks volumes.

 

 

On the upside: Blainofsky destroys the 'epic' Klaine soulmates lovestory so completely that only a few diehard Klainers will be left happy in the end.

 

Oh I dare say the die harders would stomach literally anything.  The writers could have Blaine rape Becky and become a serial killer and drag Kurt with his bloodied hands to the altar and the Klainers/pseudolesbians would be gushing  "Our boys are getting married!  It's canon!!"

 

The rest of the fans will simply shrug and/or already have tuned out.

 

 

Yes, the Klaine wedding will be one big whatever with that buildup.  I"m still debating if the writers will attempt yet another "eternal soulmates through the ages' speech for them again, ala the proposal.

[camussie]

Originally, Rachel was going to cheat on Finn with this guy, so I'm glad we were spared that warmed over rehashed story yet again.

 

 

Pretty sure this is wrong.  I believe the original story was that Finn/Rachel were still going to be drawn to each other but since they were in separate locations they both were dating others - him Penny and her either her director or co-star.  At least for season 5.  Have no idea how they would have stretched it out until season 6 unless both were alone who occasionally hooked up with each other.

 

I would think it would make at least some people on THIS board happy considering the appetite I've seen for the Rachel Berry Character's defeat/loss and final acknowledgement that others are as/more talented than she is.

 

 

Then you would think wrong,  Even those of us who want Rachel to eat some humble pie after the way she trashed her own career want her to be Broadway bound again by the end of the show (and those of us who have that opinion are not "haters").  I want desperately for her final scene to be her telling Will that she is going go back to New York, this time a little bit older and lot wiser, to make it back to Broadway (ETA: As Caracas pointed out not because she wants to be a star but rather because she wants to perform again).  What I don't want is to see her jump right back into huge success i.e. the show ending with her winning a Tony.  I would even be on board with seeing her in some obviously off-Broadway show joyously performing as her closing scene.

 

As for acknowledging there are other characters more talented than she is I don't want nor need that either.  Since the others have gone on to their own successes (which did not take away from Rachel's) the only thing I want there is no more stacking the decks by calling minority women lazy in comparison to Rachel.  For that matter one of my biggest wishes for Glee would be for them to acknowledge that performing arts success is not the only kind of success.  That is why I was disappointed they had Quinn say she is involved in Yale's drama program. I think it would be great if they had at least one "original" who found success in a career other than the arts.  I suppose Puck fits that but I doubt we get any focus on it.

 

Even if Sam is "noble" enough to give Rachel up as he did Brittany and Mercedes, or so help me, echoes of what Finn did in Season 3 there is nothing that indicates there is anything other than plot convenience at stake.

 

 

I honestly can't say which would make me more stabby - a rehash of the train station scene or RM giving Sam/Rachel the ending so many Finn and Finn/Rachel fans wanted for him and them - him joining her in New York mainly to fulfill his original story of proving himself away from Lima but also so they could be together.  I think the later since they have already firmly established that Sam tried New York, even had success there, and simply didn't like it - an opportunity RM was never going to give Finn, if he had his way.

 

Still have to wonder why they kept Kevin and not Jenna?

 

 

IMO because he is a very versatile male voice - something they needed in the last half of season 5.  Amber was the equivalent on the female side - she provided a versatile female voice especially when Naya was given a "vacation" for several episodes.

Edited December 30, 2014 by camussie

[jaytee1812]

I can't think of an ending for Rachel that isn't a rehash of something. She could go to New York, go to LA, struggle to get a chance at a performing school, or leave her boyfriend in Lima whole she goes off. They're all a rehash.

Unless of course she stays in Lima, and as someone who loathes her character that's the worst ending I can think of.

[caracas1914]

I'm not sure with Rachel if its a matter of stardom again.

What I would love, (but doubt it will happen), is if Rachel would rediscover simply her love of performing. One of the worse things about the Funny Girl SL is that it pounded out the message she was bored, tired of performing Funny Girl after a few friggin weeks. It's like sheer stardom, aka TV show fame, was the overwhelming trait of a Rachel and Broadway was now an irritant.

If they showed Rachel in the fadeout rediscovering her passion of singing/performing that to me wouldn't necessarily be a rehash.

Edited December 30, 2014 by caracas1914

[camussie]

Yeah that is actually what I mean by her wanting to go back to Broadway, both older and wiser i.e. meaning she realizes that the true joy of being there was that she got to perform.  That is why I think a fade-out of her joyously performing on some small stage would actually be a good ending for her, given how they trashed her story last year.

Edited December 30, 2014 by camussie

[tom87]

I still can't with her being bored.  If she was receiving applause every night she wouldn't be bored.

 

They turned the page on Rachel just wanting to be famous a long time ago.

 

Bway v. LA

"Bway is about the work you do not the work you have done".  She also seemed to understand she had a limited window to the be the young ingénue and that she was cut out more to be a bway then other mediums.

 

But of course  why worry about characterization when there is a choir room and a stale competition cycle to work with.

[caracas1914]

[caracas1914]

GLEE CLUB 2.0 ON AN ALL-NEW “GLEE” FRIDAY, JANUARY 16, ON FOX

 

Rachel and Kurt struggle as they try to rebuild and co-direct the glee club at McKinley. Meanwhile, Sue is concerned when Becky brings her new boyfriend to town in the all-new “Jagged Little Tapestry” episode of GLEE airing Friday, Jan. 16 (9:00-10:00 PM ET/PT) on FOX. (GLE-603) (TV-14 D, L)

 

Cast: Lea Michele as Rachel Berry; Chris Colfer as Kurt Hummel; Darren Criss as Blaine Anderson; Chord Overstreet as Sam Evans, Jane Lynch as Sue, Matthew Morrison as Will, Dot-Marie Jones as Coach Beiste, Lauren Potter as Becky

 

[truthaboutluv]

Kurt and Blaine are so dysfunctional but yet the show keeps telling me it's okay for them but not okay for other couples who go though the exact same thing but whatever.

 

 

They have? I guess I can't see that being that just about every couple on this show has sucked considerably at some point. If this is in relation to Rachel and Finn getting engaged and everyone saying they were too young, well yeah, Kurt and Blaine's engagement was supported but they imploded all on their own very soon after. Finn and Rachel may have gotten the "you're too young to be engaged" obstacle but Kurt and Blaine got the "Kurt hates living with Blaine and thinks he's creepy and clingy and drives him crazy" obstacle. 

 

I honestly never got the sense the writers are saying other couples are bad and dysfunctional but Kurt and Blaine are totally normal. I think it's simply that they are horrible at writing relationships because they are horrible at writing consistent storylines, consistent characterizations, etc. and the pairings all suffer because of it. That said, the ones that are given more screentime gets the worse of their shitty writing. 

Edited December 30, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[truthaboutluv]

I absolutely think the obstacles the writers have thrown at Kurt and Blaine have definitely been far worse than just about any pairing on the show and have said as much. I mean at this point, someone could write an essay at how epicly they've destroyed Blaine as a character. Like in my many years of watching television, I honestly cannot remember a show where a character that I think we're supposed to like and root for has been so utterly destroyed from what they first were. It's truly astounding. But I just don't see it as their getting excused while other couples are not because again I don't think the writers see anything to be excused. As I said I just think it's that the writers are just really, really bad and truly think that I don't know, they're telling some passionate and interesting love story rather than just writing complete and utter shit.

Edited December 30, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[caracas1914]

Good writers look at their creations, the characters, as virtually "real" people. They get a proprietary almost protective feel for them. The Glee writers , and Ryan and Brad particularly , my sense is that they have never viewed any of the characters of their shows with that prism. I can't see any of them saying, " no that's not how Character XYZ should respond!". They have an ironic detachment so you feel the characters are just chess players in a TV screen. Ryan and Brad are smart, clever people and they think that's enough.

It's almost like they're thoughtless chikdren ( RIB) playing with dolls carelessly breaking them and taping them back for another round of "house".

Which is why American Horror Story sort of works because the artificial construct is more open and the reboot is built in.

That is why the black comedy was hard to sustain beyond the original 13 episodes because the characters weren't suppose to exit beyond that, and other then repeating their same SL's there was no sense of a protective bubble or care even around the leading characters.

Edited December 31, 2014 by caracas1914

[caracas1914]

I feel like if anything, Glee is probably the MOST INCONSISTENT SHOW ever that I have watched, but I always felt like that the relationships and friendships were pretty organic and consistent.

 

I feel this was as much due to the "lightning in a bottle" rarity that the original cast had of  genuine chemistry, which even good writing or good acting isn't guaranteed to create.

 

It explains why I could never buy the newbies friendships or relationships.

 

OTOH, Poor writing and no chemistry, a deadly combination.

[jaytee1812]

THIS! You explained everything in a way I can't. Here's the thing, Glee isn't the most consistent show in the world, I mean, damn, I feel like if anything, Glee is probably the MOST INCONSISTENT SHOW ever that I have watched, but I always felt like that the relationships and friendships were pretty organic and consistent. The originals were, at least. Or, at least I could see why these people would constantly be tangible to each other, despite all the hell and things they did or said to each other. It explains why I could never buy the newbies friendships or relationships.

Huh. I'm the opposite, I totally bought the newbies friendships (though none of their romances.) And my head canon says they're still friends.

I don't buy any of the original glee club still talking to Rachel except Kurt, and at a stretch Mercedes and Quinn. Now I don't mean that harshly, I just think she was a situational friend for most of them. Once they left high school, they might have her on social media, but rushing homed to help her, nope don't buy it.

But for me that's true for most of them. I buy Mike, Puck and maybe Artie staying in touch. I buy Tina and Quinn for some reason, Tina and Mike, and Blaine and Sam. I thought the Mercedes/Mike friendship that suddenly appeared in season 4 was bizarre, as was Santana's sudden friendship with Kurt and Rachel.

[tom87]

I feel this was as much due to the "lightning in a bottle" rarity that the original cast had of  genuine chemistry, which even good writing or good acting isn't guaranteed to create.

 

Quote

    It explains why I could never buy the newbies friendships or relationships.

 

OTOH, Poor writing and no chemistry, a deadly combination.

The newbies were so force together at the end of every episode it got ridiculous.   Lets have them run around in circles and bond and sing. meh.

 

The originals had such a connection that the background acting was  worth re-watching to see what you missed.

Edited December 31, 2014 by tom87

[jaytee1812]

 

The originals had such a connection that the background acting was  worth re-watching to see what you missed.

That's true for the newbies too. Although like the originals I suspect that's down to real life friendships

The originals chemistry was great season 1, maybe season 2, but I haven't noticed it in years. I do not buy these people as friends now.

[KatWay]

I actually thought the newbies seemed closer and more authentic as a group of friends than the originals. The stuff that makes the original characters so great - that they're so distinctive and different and all the tension between them, also always made me side-eye some of their friendships, especially when the writing did next to nothing to explain them and figured, whatever, they have good chemistry. Meanwhile what made the newbies bland and boring was that they all kind of blended together. But that did make for authentic friendships. I "got" Ryder & Jake's friendship more than I ever understood Puck/Finn. Mark and Cory's chemistry was the only reason I was even halfway prepared to buy that these two were friends after a) everything that had gone down between them and b) them never spending any meaningful time together. The newbs seemed like a tight-knit group. The only truly bad things that were done were Kitty encouragining Marley's bulimia and Unique catfishing Ryder and in true Glee manier those were never dealt with either, but on the whole there was much less nastiness between them than the originals.

[fakeempress]

 

Finn and Rachel may have gotten the "you're too young to be engaged" obstacle but Kurt and Blaine got the "Kurt hates living with Blaine and thinks he's creepy and clingy and drives him crazy" obstacle.

It wasn't only in Kurt's perception. Blaine himself talked about why he was clingy and needy in Tested. The obstacle the writers were working at was, and I'm using here the TV Line summary from their interview with Brad because I think it got the gist - the difficulty in maintaining closeness, when you’re really on top of each other every day. My aunt used to say how the real test for love is when you have to pick up smelly socks every day. I think that was indeed what RIB wanted to do, but here comes the rub of what caracas says about the ironic detachment . Also, RIB have zero patience to develop the storylines at natural pace. On the same example, they plunged Kurt and Blaine directly from living apart to conflict, which really made the couple seem unable to coexist. Then they piled up conflict after conflict, which sealed the deal. They don't see any problem with this kind of imbalanced writing, as they don't see a problem with resorting to sensationalist and shocking twists like Blaine cheating and Blainofsky, when they want to move plot in a particular direction - see also Brody is a gigolo, Rachel is bored with Broadway after a few weeks, and many many more.  

Edited December 31, 2014 by fakeempress

[tom87]

I get the newbies may have been closer but way less interesting. I also thought the show was trying way to hard to show they were friends   The end songs got monotonous.

 

I never saw any real interesting background moments from the newbies and the Seniors.  I swear thinking about it right now all I can remember is a few times Ryder acted ADHD in his chair. 

 

I would say  in later seasons the background moments dwindled some  because there were less choir room  scenes in a effort to give these actors some breaks and not make them sit in on every performance  or scene for 16 hours a day.

 

I don't think the orignal glee club would all be that close either.   I do think they they may be friends that once they got back together everything falls  back in to place easily.  But no that does not mean they would keep in touch or see each other a lot. 

Edited December 31, 2014 by tom87

[truthaboutluv]

It wasn't only in Kurt's perception.

 

 

I didn't say it was. My comment was simply about the fact that I know many were bothered by the huge Klaine proposal while almost everyone told Rachel and Finn they were too young to be engaged. And the point was that while some didn't hammer how young Kurt and Blaine also were, which yes they should have, the writers just found another way to implode the relationship/engagement, the "adult reality" nonsense which yes related to suddenly living together. I got all that...because as horrible as the writing on this show is, it also lacks any subtlety so the writers often hammer their point home with a jackhammer.

 

The stuff that makes the original characters so great - that they're so distinctive and different and all the tension between them, also always made me side-eye some of their friendships, especially when the writing did next to nothing to explain them and figured, whatever, they have good chemistry. Meanwhile what made the newbies bland and boring was that they all kind of blended together.

 

 

That is actually a pretty interesting perspective that I never thought about. I think ultimately these newbies were just screwed no matter what and it didn't help that the writers were so utterly inept. The fact is it is always a risk to bring on new characters in an already established show which is why, I can't off the top of my head think of one where they did a mass exodus of established characters like Glee did. Most shows bring in one or two new characters to join an already established cast but even then, it's often a risk because the chemistry may not work, viewers may have trouble connecting with this new character, etc.

 

And with the newbies this was the case ten times over. Not only did you have the normal issues of a new character on an established show, but a there was a significant part of the fandom who were bothered by and resented that the characters they'd grown used to were sent away, then some were turned off by what they felt was the writers' trying to make the newbies into pod versions of the original characters rather than making them their own person. And then there was the awkward returns of the old cast because they didn't entirely fire them and that only made things awkward on both ends - with the new kids and the older cast that seemed like losers who graduated still hanging around their old high school. 

 

It was just a mistake which was largely the fault of RIB and all the characters suffered for it - new and old. 

Edited December 31, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[ComfySweater]

Splitting the baby never works. They either should have followed the graduates or let them go to focus on the noobs. Trying to do both served neither and ticked off fans of both options. That they're fairly terrible writers once the initial thrust of an idea is finished is a separate issue that means neither option stood a chance anyway. They're better off with shows that have a giant refresh button at the end of each season. I don't think they have more than 13 episodes in them for any given set of characters before they keep repeating the same lessons and character beats taking them to more extreme places each time to feel like they're still being edgy.