Spoilers & Speculation: Running Hot & Cold

[Sakura12]

I want to know why Barry felt the need to contact Rip and tell him about his screw up 40 years afterwards. Unless he does it again 39 years from now, what's the point? 

[yellowfred]

My theory: in approximately 39 years, Barry watches the move Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure and realizes that, in order to keep the timeline intact, he has to actually do all the stuff that future!him did that kept him from dying too soon.  Because it's been a while, "leave a vaguely ominous message for that time traveler you met so that you and Oliver don't end up brainwashed by aliens" is kind of low on the list, so it takes him about a year to get around to it. 

[Sakura12]

The episode 12 title is interesting. Apparently it's also a comic book about King Arthur and Knights of the Round Table in the year 3000.

[MarkHB]

Camelot 3000, a 12-issue standalone miniseries, was the first direct-only (not available via newsstands) comic, which confused the hell out of me in high school as I usually bought my comics at the local bookstore chain (DC advertised it heavily in their regular books), and it was also one of the first Flexographic books on better paper as opposed to old-school four-color process on newsprint.  I'm excited that they're going to do something with it!

I believe it may also have been the first DC book to even approach having an LGBTQ character, as

Spoiler

one of the Knights of the Round Table was reincarnated as a woman.

(Spoiler for the comic in case anyone wants to read it and be surprised.)

[Primal Slayer]

When are they going to address the glaring issue of keeping Amaya out of her time? Not only is she risking the issue of Mari not being born but is risking the totem never even finding its way to Mari.

[Proteus]

The after show DC show on the CW app has CL talk about how Rip will be working with George Lucas. It's implied Rip may give him the idea for Star Wars.

The preview clip posted on the app has Jax comforting Sara because the LOD have captured Rip and Sara feels bad that they didn't get to Rip first.

[lurker22]

21 hours ago, Proteus said:

The preview clip posted on the app has Jax comforting Sara because the LOD have captured Rip and Sara feels bad that they didn't get to Rip first.

That makes me really excited for the episode. I think Sara was the one closest to Rip on the ship, despite their conflicting viewpoints at times. I think now that Sara's been Captain for a while, they have even more things in common and can understand each other even more.

Really interested to see Sara and Rip's friendship develop when he comes back on the Waverider.

[Proteus]

Yeah, Sara seems really torn up about not getting Rip. But she has a piece of the Spear Of Destiny. Here's where the clips are:

http://m.cwtv.com/shows/dcs-legends-of-tomorrow/

[MarkHB]

For those who aren't aware, in DC lore the Spear of Destiny was in Hitler's possession during WWII, and it's power prevented the DC heroes from entering the Third Reich and ending the war.  That may have been a later retcon, but it's the canon answer to "why didn't Superman just capture Hitler?"

[Sakura12]

Sara seems to be developing a bond with both halves of Firestorm. I do like that they both fully support and respect her. Jax has really matured this season. While Nate has made Ray regress into a teenager. I suppose it's the fact that Sara and Jax have actual responsibilities by protecting the team and the ship is helping with their growth.  

I liked Jax saying that one of Sara's skills is her never giving up. She keeps fighting even after her death. I do think Sara was the only that came to respect Rip, and probably does even more now that she's taken over as Captain. 

[Lady Calypso]

2 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

While Nate has made Ray regress into a teenager.

You know, I would say that Ray has always had that quality to him. Nate seemed to be more mature before hanging out with Ray, but we never got to know Nate that well before it happened. Nate and Ray do bring out the worst in each other, so both are just bringing out the frat boy sides that have always been there. 

But you're right on the other aspects. Jax is great; he has really grown into his own, which is fantastic to see. Jax is definitely one of my favourites. I even prefer Jax over Stein. I mean, not by much, but enough. 

I am looking forward to the next episode, though. It's a long wait but I think it'll be worth it. 

[lurker22]

Jax has matured so much! I love the sibling relationship they've established between Sara and Jax in the beginning of the season, from small things like Jax teasing Sara about the Queen of France and them pushing each other in the JSA "jail cell". But now we have Jax checking in on Sara and giving her the much-needed pep talk to bring Rip back. Hopefully the writers will continue to develop this friendship.

I guess they're now officially calling Eobard, Damien and Malcolm the "Legion". I'm really interested to see how the Legends found Rip and what happened between them and the Legion.

[Starfish35]

Guinevere cast:

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/12/12/legends-tomorrow-elyse-levesque

[kismet]

Im gonna bet that Turncoat is about Benedict Arnold and not related to any Turncoat on the Legends team... my reasoning is because Timeless just did a Benedict Arnold episode. And LoT & Timeless love to find inspiration from the same sources. Luckily for me I love both shows take on the same material :)

[Proteus]

New Legends promo:

Yuck to Nate and Amaya. Ray/Kendra 2.0 here we come.

Edited December 24, 2016 by Proteus

[kismet]

Well we knew a romantic relationship was bound to happen this season... I'm just glad it doesn't involve Ray. Sorry but I just don't think BR plays a good romantic lead. I also think we deserve to meet Anna at some point and I don't want him in a romantic thing when that happens.

Also the actress that plays Amaya has an accent?? -- Can I make request that we allow her & Franz to use their natural accents??

Looks entertaining. I'm glad to get Rip back. I also love that Sara refuses to use their name. I think that's a nice touch.

[Sakura12]

Maisie Richardson-Sellers (Amaya) is British. I don't know why she doesn't have an accent, being that she's supposed to be from Africa. 

Of course Sara wouldn't want to give the villains a stupid team name. 

Nate and Amaya is an interesting way to go since it looked like they were setting up Amaya/Mick. 

[Proteus]

Since I liked Mick/Amaya, I'm really disappointed by this.

[squidprincess]

I liked Mick/Amaya too, but there are a lot of ways that scene could go.  It's just a promo after all.

(Maybe they're pretending to be actors?  If Rip's a director, maybe they do something on a movie set?)

I adore Rip's terrible hair.  It's awful but weirdly cute.

[Proteus]

Those are some good specs squid princess regarding Nate and Amaya. I just don't want Amaya wasted on boring Nate. 

I just find the Mick/Amaya dynamic far more interesting and her way more interesting opposite Purcell.

Seeing Rip back in action is the best part of the promo.

[Maverick]

 Darhk, Merlyn and "the speedster"?  They still don't know it's Thawne?   Criminey people...would just go talk to the speedster you know and ask about this dude already.

[Miss Dee]

Shit on it, they're gonna make it so Mick's unrequited feelings for Amaya cause him to die or go evil, aren't they? DAMMIT!!! Why can't I have nice things?!!

That promo went so fast, maybe we've misinterpreted something. Yeah, that's it.

[kirinan]

I never trust promos anymore. They're always cut to be so out of context. There's a reason they call the ones who create them "promo monkeys."

[Argenta]

13 hours ago, Maverick said:

 Darhk, Merlyn and "the speedster"?  They still don't know it's Thawne?   Criminey people...would just go talk to the speedster you know and ask about this dude already.

Yeah, I really think that Stein especially, as someone who`s encountered Thawne before, should have put two and two together by now and figured out who they`re dealing with. 

I`m really excited for the new episode after seeing this trailer. I love the Legion of Doom and can`t wait to see more of them. They`re awesome individually. Together...villain heaven XD

Anyone else think Director!Rip looks like a young James Cameron?

[squidprincess]

Stein met Eobard when he looked like Tom Cavanaugh though.  He may never have gotten a good look at Eobard without the disguise.

[Argenta]

19 minutes ago, squidprincess said:

Stein met Eobard when he looked like Tom Cavanaugh though.  He may never have gotten a good look at Eobard without the disguise.

You're right, I don't think he did, so he certainly wouldn't recognize him from sight, but I think there are enough clues for him to at least consider that it *might* be Thawne. 

[Miss Dee]

Would Stein be aware that a speedster was wearing Harrison Wells' face, though? Or, if he did, would he have reason to think that the supposedly dead speedster wasn't actually dead? Barry's probably been too caught up in atoning for his own part in Flashpoint to update Stein on the role of the Reverse Flash in it, and Stein was too busy having his memories overhauled and finding and spending time with his daughter to focus on the speedster that killed Amaya's colleague. I can buy that he didn't have the kind of conversation with Barry that would cause him to put two and two together. 

[Proteus]

George Lucas cast:

http://ew.com/tv/2016/12/27/legends-tomorrow-george-lucas/

DC’s Legends of Tomorrow is about to delve into the world of George Lucas.

In the wake of the reveal that Rip Hunter (Arthur Darvill) is working as a director in 1967 Los Angeles, EW can exclusively reveal that a younger version of George Lucas will appear in the winter premiere.

The prolific director will be portrayed by Matt Angel (Sweet/Vicious, Grimm) for an episode that will deeply affect the Legends, particularly Ray (Brandon Routh) and Nate (Nick Zano).

“Because of circumstances, the time aberration in episode 209 is George Lucas quits film school,” executive producer Marc Guggenheim tells EW. “As a result, he never makes Star Wars or Raiders of the Lost Ark. As a result, Ray, who became an engineer because of Star Wars, and Nate, who became a historian because of Raiders, slowly start to lose their brilliance, because those things that inspired them to become who they are didn’t exist.”

Describing the story as “Flowers for Algernon with Ray and Nate,” Guggenheim says the episode is one of the most ambitious that Legends of Tomorrow has done. “We were watching a cut of it, and I said to Greg [Berlanti] that 209 is either going to be the episode where we’ll say that the show found a new gear in terms of how zany it can be, or it’s the episode that’s going to get us all fired,” he says. “It really is. You’re laughing out loud, I think with it, but it’s like, ‘Are we really doing this?’ It’s the ’70s bar fight on steroids. The whole episode is that level of crazy.”

Edited December 27, 2016 by Proteus

[Starfish35]

That's...maybe I'm misunderstanding this, but the knowledge a person has isn't what makes them brilliant.  Ray and Nate should still be highly intelligent - they just wouldn't have the specific knowledge they had before.

[MarkHB]

What would be really funny would be if they were still highly intelligent, but had gone into fields that would largely be useless to the mission... A florist and a hedge fund manager, for instance.

[squidprincess]

I'm vaguely curious by this.  All along I've thought Nate was a crap historian, so it will be interesting to see the change this should make.

[Lokiberry]

I'm interested in what happens to Ray, but as for Nate? They need to stop trying to make fetch happen.

[Featherhat]

Hah, you mean that wasn't just a wind up rumour? Well that is a completely crazy one, but I guess they did find a way to tie it into the characters. They should both still be brilliant (well Ray anyway) but if you don't have the knowledge to create an Atom suit or work with the futuristic tech and did something else then you might be pretty useless. Nate seems like a rubbish historian since he got his powers and even moaned that research was like being back at high school. And this is the guy that supposedly was so obsessed with tracking down history for obscure time anomalies? Yeah.

Matt Angel doesn't particularly strike me as looking like young George Lucas did but I guess we'll see. I wonder if they'd have to ask his permission? Possibly not but it will be fun to see his reaction if he was asked or if he found out.

[kismet]

Consider me intrigued. I remember reading the book in school many years ago. I remember the experimentation part, so I don't quite think the plot line will be similar. But the emotional conflict resulting from losing & gaining intelligence should be similar and interesting to see. I don't see how it's going to be connect to Luca's per se, but Ill go along for the journey.

I do think that intelligence is based on more than just your profession and skills chosen as a result of your personal interests, but it should be interesting to see how the team's incorporate the ideas. I am always hesitant when MG cites literary inspiration, considering some of his previous debaucheries of literature.

[Sakura12]

How are we going to tell the difference with Nate? He's been a crap historian since we met him. 

Also that's not how intelligence works. Ray would not have a degree in whatever he has a degree in, but he would not be stupid. He have a a degree or skill set in something else. It would be funny if he had the skills of a chef and Sara asks him to make a weapon and he can only make a souffle or something.

[Miss Dee]

I have a feeling that's what is meant by "brilliance". Ray and Nate are just as smart, but don't have the education and experience in their chosen fields due to the Lucas factor and therefore can't science or history the team out of a jam.

They'll have Stein and Rip (hopefully) though, so they won't be completely bereft. Bonus points if *someone* finally cottons on to the fact Mick still has all that Chronos stuff rattling around in his head.

I'm really hoping the catalyst for all this is that either George is so completely demoralized by Rip's moviemaking talent that he gives up before he starts, or Rip is a hack who accidentally "borrows" from Star Wars and causes George to decide there's no point in going into movies because he obviously has no original ideas to start with.

[Sakura12]

I would've thought that, if not for Guggenheim mentioning “Flowers for Algernon" that made me go with they start losing their intelligence. Which makes no sense, because not watching a movie wouldn't make Ray dumber (the jury's still out on Nate's intelligence). He would still be a smart guy that went in a different direction with his education and career. 

[squidprincess]

My guess is that the Flowers for Algernon comparison might be because we'll see Ray and Nate actually aware of losing their expertise.  Like "I knew this a moment ago, what the heck?" rather than a matter of literally becoming less intelligent.

This is kind of a weird show sometimes, though.

I admit, I kind of like the thought that Rip has nothing to do with Lucas leaving the industry, and the team just kind of bumbles over him by chance.  I always figured Rip would be more of a Roger Corman than a George Lucas anyway.  :-)

[kismet]

In Flowers for Algernon, a man with a low IQ receives experimental treatment that makes his IQ extremely higher. *book spoilers*

Spoiler

He then either chooses to stop the experiments or something goes wrong, or both. I honestly can't remember, it's been a little over a decade since I read it. So the last part of the book deals with the emotional & physical fall out from losing his intelligence.

It is a very well written book. I highly recommend the book. And I believe there was even a movie adaptation of it, which was good but like most film adaptation - not as good as the book. I vaguely remember watching it after I read the book.

Honestly, I'm taking MG's comments with a grain of salt because I think he has little to no grasp on literature or at least how to use it in a sentence. Seriously, I wonder with his interview skills, how he manages to write successful programs because his grasp on communication & social media is so lacking.

I'm thinking that perhaps something happens with their knowledge base which relates back to Star Wars never having been made. But I doubt it will be anything like Flowers for Algernon or related to it in any way. I do think the only thing that perhaps they might capture is some of the emotional conflict that occurs when people's knowledge level changes or people's expectations/perception of another person's knowledge level.

The episode is probably more on par with how some other shows or movies inaccurately portray Dementia now, but MG wanted to sound more intelligent so he name dropped a literary classic. I still think it sounds like an interesting episode. I am just not getting too attached to the FFA reference.

[squidprincess]

Truth be told, I hated that book as a kid and I hate it as an adult.  :-)

But based on the context of Guggenheim's comments, I doubt it will be anything like that.  I don't get the impression they'll be going the dementia route either.  It sounds like they're going more zany than sad.

[Sakura12]

You are right I should take into account who made the comment. That's probably the only book he read that he could compare his storyline too. When that wasn't even necessary. He could've just stopped at because George Lucas never made Star Wars or Raiders and it results in a change in Ray and Nate's career choices. 

Flowers for Algernon does not seem like an apt comparison being that it's a book about an experiment that causes someone to gain intelligence then revert back once the experiment stops. Ray and Nate not seeing some movies and having different career paths as a result is a completely different situation. That should only affect them professionally not intellectually. 

[Maverick]

 Stargate Atlantis did a riff on that book with Rodney regressing mentally to like a 5 year old.  I agree we're not going to see Ray asking Sara to hold his hand because he's scared or Nate asking Jax to so him pretty pictures of the birds.   I think they're just going to lose their technical knowledge (and as pointed out, it'll be hard to tell the difference with Nate) but they'll still be able to feed and dress themselves and form completely sentences.  Either way, it's just more nonsense in the way time changes effect them.  If they've lost their skills, why does everyone else remember they used to be smart?  For that matter, why are they even on the ship?  If their past was changed to where they didn't enter their professions, they should never have met the Legends and never boarded the ship.   

 I think between this show and The Flash (although this one is getting worse) they've decided to not apply any logic at all and just write whatever's "cool".    I think this should be the new theme song for the show because when it comes to dealing with history and the ramifications, well......

 

[squidprincess]

I think it was inevitable.  This is a comic book show, and if you think the Flarrowverse take on time travel is incoherent, you should see what 50-some odd years of comics have done.  :-)

[Proteus]

“Raiders of the Lost Art” — (9:00-10:00 p.m. ET) (TV-PG, V) (HDTV)

LOST MEMORIES — When Damien Darhk (guest star Neal McDonough) and Malcolm Merlyn (guest star John Barrowman) try to capture Rip Hunter (Arthur Darvill) in 1967, they create an Aberration big enough to draw the attention of the Legends.  However, when the team arrives they discover that Rip has no memories of his past due to “time drift” and is just a graduate film student.  After trying to convince Rip of who he was, they discover that he possesses an incredibly powerful artifact known as the Spear of Destiny, which the Legion of Doom is after. Ray (Bradon Routh) and Nate (Nick Zano) realize that the Aberration has also affected them personally making it difficult to help the team.  Meanwhile, Rory (Dominic Purcell) asks Stein (Victor Garber) for help and makes him promise to keep it a secret from the team.  Caity Lotz, Franz Drameh and Maisie Richardson-Sellers also star. Dermott Downs directed the episode written by Keto Shimizu & Chris Fedak (#209).  Original airdate 1/24/2017.

[Sakura12]

Mick asking Stein for help should be interesting. I wonder if it's about him hallucinating Leonard? 

[kirinan]

2 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Mick asking Stein for help should be interesting. I wonder if it's about him hallucinating Leonard? 

Sakura12, I'm guessing (and hoping!) yes, because Wentworth Miller is listed in the cast for this episode on IMDB.

[squidprincess]

I'm looking forward to amnesiac Rip.  (And it's a good way to keep Sara in charge a while longer.  I'd like to think that more time with Sara in charge now will increase the likelihood that she will stay co-captain when Rip is completely back to himself.)

I wonder if Martin's involvement will lead to some kind of "he isn't just a hallucination" reveal.  Because I really would like to see actual Snart back.

[yellowfred]

Reading that episode description, their choice to put up that sneak peek scene last month (the one with Sara and Jax talking in the hanger) seems even stranger.  Like, it kind of seems like they've already shown us how the main plot of the episode ends up.

[Proteus]

9 hours ago, yellowfred said:

Reading that episode description, their choice to put up that sneak peek scene last month (the one with Sara and Jax talking in the hanger) seems even stranger.  Like, it kind of seems like they've already shown us how the main plot of the episode ends up.

Yeah. That was probably one of the last scenes of the episode. Same goes for the trailer showing Rip locked up screaming.

[squidprincess]

On 1/6/2017 at 11:48 PM, Proteus said:

Yeah. That was probably one of the last scenes of the episode. Same goes for the trailer showing Rip locked up screaming.

I saw some reviewer state that some of the footage in the trailer was from a later episode.  I have no idea how they'd know this, but it probably makes sense.  They're not just teasing one episode, they're teasing the plot arc for the second half of the season.

It does spoil the ending of Raiders, presumably, but it does raise the stakes nicely to know that the villains are going to capture the only person who might have any sort of inkling as to what's actually going on.