Spoilers & Speculation: Running Hot & Cold

[Starfish35]

Any scoop on Caity Lotz’s role in the Arrow/Flash spinoff? –Catarina

Ah yes, this spring’s burningest question: Will she play Sara, and if so, how will that character be resurrected? Or will she play someone new? “We definitely noticed that people have been asking those questions and we’re glad. And we kind of want them to ask those questions a little longer,” says Marc Guggenheim, an EP on the spinoff project. “I would say that by May you’ll know the answers to those questions, but we’re going to keep those cards a little close to our vests for a while.”

http://tvline.com/2015/03/18/greys-anatomy-callie-romance-spoilers/ Edited March 19, 2015 by Starfish35

[Menrva]

From the EOnline article (posted in the News & Media thread):

Marc Guggenheim: "I will say the Atom costume is such a triumph. It's not only my favorite…it's never been done on television before, that kind of television. The costume has real practical lights, real practical motors…It's a triumph on engineering."

 

Another reason why Ray is in the spinoff.

I roll my eyes at this (though I roll my eyes at pretty much everything that comes out of MG's mouth and that's why I'm so damn dizzy all the time…) because the Atom costume is not a triumph. Unless by triumph, he means bizarre amalgam of diving suit, wire cables, LED wire and the plastic shield from the air popper. Any serious cosplayer could come up with something far better (and likely less expensively!) than that goofy getup. It makes Brandon Routh look clunky and cumbersome, and while I may not love Ray Palmer, I will not deny that he is an attractive man. All those lights and cable things look like decoration to me; I can't figure out what they're supposed to do. Same with Buckle Canary. Maybe she wandered into a steampunk convention on her way to go beat someone up. They are just there because apparently the more buckles you wear, the more badass you appear. It's like my pet peeve when apostrophes are used incorrectly. They do not make words fancy. They actually serve a purpose…

[FurryFury]

I think this is the case with most superhero costumes - they really, really aren't practical. And people seem to like it, for whatever reason. Me? Give me Mockingbird's get up on Agents of Shield any day over some tights and capes.

[MarkHB]

My interpretation of Laurel's Black Canary costume is that the buckles actually are meant to call out to stocking garters, without the actual fishnet stockings.  So, a shoutout to the comics in a way.

 

I haven't seen last night's Arrow yet, but I'm looking forward to finding out what Ray's ATOM suit can do besides fly... and presumably (at some point, maybe after the Flash crossover) shrink.

[Sakura12]

Sara's costume had the fishnet design without 10,000 buckles. 

[strikera0]

Roy's costume has too many buckles as well.

Edited March 19, 2015 by strikera0

[Menrva]

Sara's costume had the fishnet design without 10,000 buckles. 

10,000 Buckles is going to be the name for my 10,000 Maniacs tribute band now. Yes, I forgot that Roy's costume is infested with buckles as well. I don't like it on his either - somehow it makes him look shorter. I would really love to redesign their costumes…

 

I'm hopeful that the good folks at Star Labs perhaps can make some adjustments to the Atom suit? I actually am looking forward to Ray Palmer in Central City - it just feels like such a better fit for him over there.

[Morena]

The Arrow-Point Paradox: Will Time Travel On The Flash Alter The Arrow?

http://dctvuniverse.com/2015/03/the-arrow-point-paradox-will-time-travel-on-the-flash-alter-the-arrow-story-line/

Edited March 20, 2015 by Morena

[wonderwall]

Bye byeee fake canaryyyy

You're 10,000 buckles in the windddddddddd

 

----

 

If only :/

[FurryFury]

I actually don't mind buckles per se. I'm a Final Fantasy fan, if you know what I mean. But Laurel's costume and her in it just look weird and very uncomfortable. Maybe it has to do with the actress' physicality - it's generally very hard to believe KC in an action role. 

 

Sara's costume wasn't perfect, though - the cleavage was way too low. But it was much better, and CL made her look legitimately threatening in the action scenes.

[tv echo]

Victor Garber 'Excited' For 'Arrow'/'Flash' Spin-Off
MARCH 19, 2015 08:18 PM EDT
http://www.accesshollywood.com/victor-garber-excited-for-arrowflash-spin-off_article_105621

[Sakura12]

It looks like they started casting for the spin off.

 

[KirkB]

Bringing Sara back with time travel, if they go that route, doesn't necessarily mean getting rid of Laurel's Canary. It's not like, as far as we know, Katie is leaving the show, and Caity will be on the new one. I somehow doubt Katie is going to finally be given a more front row seat as a fighting character only to accept being placed back in the background as normal DA Laurel. Like it or not, we're stuck with a world that either has two Canaries, or else Sara will take on a new persona.

[CabotCove]

Like it or not, we're stuck with a world that either has two Canaries, or else Sara will take on a new persona.

 

Yeah seems that way.

 

It looks like they started casting for the spin off.

 

Awesome the 3 new characters seem very intriguing.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Conell

[Sakura12]

Awesome the 3 new characters seem very intriguing.

 

They do, I'm curious to find who they are and what actors are going to play them. I can't really think of anyone with those small character descriptions. 

[Morrigan2575]

Greg Berlanti mentioned on PaleyFest that should the spinoff go to series, it'll start shooting shortly after Arrow/Flash, even if it's planned for mid-season, so Routh would be unavailable for most of Arrow 4A.

That's what I figured but it's good to have confirmation. I was trying to find the production dates for iZombie to compare but that was a bit off, since they filmed the pilot in March 2014 but had issues and did reshoots of the pilot in August 2014. I figured production on the season must have begun sometime in August so the pilot rehoots would lead right into regular production.

Arrow/Flash usually start filming mid-July so an August start for the spin-off seems to fit.

[dtissagirl]

This blog posted the Creative BC filming list from December, iZombie filmed Aug 25/14 - Jan 27/15.

http://www.filmingvancouver.com/2014/12/current-film-list-from-creative-bc.html

For stuff that's currently filming in British Columbia, there's always an updated list at Creative BC: http://www.creativebc.com/crbc-services/motion-picture-services/film-list

[Morrigan2575]

Awesome, thanks!

[Ang]

After watching last night's episode of the Flash, I have to confess I'm a little less excited for the spinoff. Captain Cold's over-the-top mannerisms lost some of their charm in larger quantities.

[Morrigan2575]

I like Captain Cold, Wentworth Miller is chewing up scenery but, he's having fun. Heatwave is the one I continue to have issues with. I guess I kind of get it, hot vs cold but Purcell does nothing for me and I really liked him on Prison Break.

[CabotCove]

I can take or leave Cold and Heatwave, Im more interested in the 3 new characters. 

And I cant wait to see Lotz and Routh in the same scenes.

[tennisgurl]

Ray...stop trying to be Tony Stark. I knew Tony Stark. Tony Stark was a friend of mine. You, sir, are no Tony Stark. 

[quarks]

Yeah, the ATOM suit turned out to be a total ripoff of the Iron Man suit except a lot less effective.  Having said that, I'm hoping that once pulled away from this Oliver/Felicity/Ray stuff, Ray can just focus on the cool things, which would be good, because I like the three other characters on the show and I want to be able to enjoy them without headthunking at Ray.

[Morrigan2575]

Thie spin-off better get a huge budget because the CGI for the ATOM suit tonight was utter crap, IMO. It took me out of both scenes (flying and hovering), special effects should be used to enhance a scene not detract or take the audience out of it.

[FurryFury]

After Once Upon A Time, I doubt that any CGI on TV could take me out of the scene. I'm immune.

 

Anyway, I doubt they're going to use Atom's suit all that often. Maybe in the beginning to lure the viewers in.

[Morrigan2575]

After Once Upon A Time, I doubt that any CGI on TV could take me out of the scene. I'm immune.

 

 

The horrible CGI in OUAT is one of the reasons i dropped the show in S1, I couldn't deal, it was utterly/unbelievably/horribly bad CGI.  I just started watching again (regularly) this season, for Maleficent/Kristen Bauer van Straten and I'm OK so far, but man those fake ass green screens can be killer.

 

Anyway, I doubt they're going to use Atom's suit all that often. Maybe in the beginning to lure the viewers in.

 

I seriously doubt these guys spent 18 Arrow episodes and 1 Flash episode not to mention all the money on Brandon Routh and that building that suit/costume in order to get an ATOM spin-off and not use it every chance they get.  Especially in a show where 4 characters have super powers (Firestorm + 3 new characters) and 2 have Super Weapons (Cold/Heatwave).  This new show is going to be a CGI fest, probably more so than Flash is right now .  So yeah, they're going to use that suit, in probably every episode.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[FurryFury]

I seriously doubt these guys spent 18 Arrow episodes and 1 Flash episode not to mention all the money on Brandon Routh and that building that suit/costume in order to get an ATOM spin-off and not use it every chance they get.

 

CGI cost is the reason why I think they won't use it that often (after the first batch of episodes). They'll also need to CGI the effects of the other characters' powers, too, and I doubt this show will get as much as money as, say, The Flash probably does.

 

I just started watching again (regularly) this season, for Maleficent/Kristen Bauer van Straten

 

Really? This season is, like, the worst ever, even beating 2B and 3B. But if you only care about the actress, then maybe it's OK, I dunno (but then, you must hate that her flashback episode was usurped by freaking Regina, who's like Laurel and Ray and Malcolm combined and with even more screentime).

Edited March 26, 2015 by FurryFury

[Sakura12]

I'm excited about the Spin Off (mostly for Caity Lotz and Victor Garber) but I just do not trust these show runners. I wish someone else was running this show, even someone new, then I can give that person a chance to surprise me. There are very few show runners that I will follow to new projects. Not saying that I will like everything they put out, but I will watch a few episodes because I like what they did with prior shows. The Flarrow writers I do not trust at all and have been pissed off at what they've done so far. 

 

I'm really conflicted about watching this. I really like some of the actors and want good things for them. I just don't want to watch a show to be disappointed and bitter with it. 

[Morrigan2575]

They could bring on someone new to run the spinoff. More likely they'll promote someone from within but, it's possible they'll bring in an outsider

[Delphi]

I'm wondering if maybe they'll go into a Secret Six kinda route but a bit less morally bankrupt.

[kismet]

I'm wondering if maybe they'll go into a Secret Six kinda route but a bit less morally bankrupt.

Aftet rays meltdown this week I could see them doing a morally deficient group. Hes was the hold out in my head that was too goody tooshu, but after the doucheness of 317 ive lost a lot of belief that he is as good or pure as he pretends to be.

[tv echo]

In response to a fan asking on tumblr if there are plans to make Ray more likeable on the spin-off and if they're concerned that Arrow fans won't watch the spin-off because of Ray, MG actually said: "I’m not concerned.  I think the people who don’t like Ray don’t like the idea that he’s Felicity’s love interest over Oliver."  

 

So apparently the EPs think the only reason some people don't like Ray right now is because he's currently an obstacle to Olicity.  (Remember that MG also previously stated that he didn't consider Ray's behavior stalkerish.)

Edited March 27, 2015 by tv echo

[KirkB]

For the record MG, on the off chance you or someone from your staff happens to read this, I don't like Ray and it has nothing to do with his being Felicity's love interest over Oliver because as people here can attest, I don't really care about that and it isn't what I watch the show for. I don't like Ray because he is a cardboard cutout of a character who is not particularly interesting to watch and who has no business on a show like Arrow. I have several reasons, in fact, why I don't like him but none of them have to do with his being with Felicity.

[nksarmi]

Well, with no disrespect intended to the people here who have their reasons for disliking Ray....I can see why he said that.  From the snippets I have gathered on other sites, it does seem like most of the people who dislike Ray do so because of olicity.  These are the same people calling Felicity a whore and saying she should have stayed loyal to Oliver.  I can see why a show producer might role his eyes at that.

 

I know that is not everyone, because my fiancé just wants him (Ray) off Arrow because he doesn't think he belongs on the show (and he doesn't give two cents about who Felicity ends up with).  He doesn't dislike the character at all - just thinks he takes away from the core story. But again, from the EPs point-of-view, they don't have to worry about fans who feel that way because they are moving the character off Arrow anyway.

Edited March 27, 2015 by nksarmi

[FurryFury]

"Die for our ship" is a very, very common fan reaction so it's understandable why MG could think so... But it's still possible to create a romantic false lead who wouldn't be hated so much. I haven't seen Ray so I have no opinion on his character, but it's clear that he has haters beyond the Olicity die-hard shippers. OTOH, the stuff I have heart about him makes me think he wouldn't be that bad on the spin-off (I'm far more concerned with Cold/Heat pair - on of them chews scenery like nobody's business and the other is basically a prop). Maybe he'll be allowed to be funny, a trait Barry Allen has been basically robbed of in the second half of this season of The Flash.

Edited March 27, 2015 by FurryFury

[nksarmi]

I'm actually thinking time travel is going to be involved in setting up this spin-off anyway.  If Caity is playing Sara and not someone totally new and Capt. Cold will be a hero or at least anti-hero on it - I think they have some major setting up to do on the main shows to make this all work.  I think LPing Sara after she has been dead and in the ground for so long and we've had to deal with this awful plot of Merlyn made Thea do it so Oliver would fight Ras, etc.... (because what chance in heck would Oliver who has never used a sword have of winning that fight anyway?) story - it would annoy the heck out of me is Sara just ended up pitted in the end.

 

So maybe time travel is going to reset these characters in a way that will make the spinoff work and erase some of the things people don't like about Ray anyway?

[Morrigan2575]

Wouldn't that just exacerbate the issue?  The new show will look to pull in Arrow fans.  Doing a reset of S3 to set up the spin-off by erasing some of the stuff people hated, Ray, Raylicity, Sara being tossed in the dumpster might end up turning people off .  1) It's a giant cheat and Flash was just met with a fair bit of criticism for the recent retcon and 2) people are going to wonder what was the point of wasting all of S3 just to have it retcon'd away.

 

I don't think time travel or LP are two main possible ways that Sara will be brought back.  If they go time travel I don't think it will reset S3 of Arrow, just throw an AU of Sara into the mix.  There's also no need to retcon Captain Cold, they already altered his character on the last episode of Flash to have him be less villain more greyish in nature.

[FurryFury]

they already altered his character on the last episode of Flash to have him be less villain more greyish in nature.

 

Which made NO sense. A horrible scene.

[nksarmi]

Morrigan,

 

I have no idea which would be worse - ending Raylicity in such a way as to show it was nothing but a block to olicity (I want it to mean something more for Felicity since as far as we know, she's only had one serious relationship prior to this and it ended badly), having Raylicity traverse over into the spin-off, or shutting it down via time travel on Flash.  I like Ray well enough and think he could work well on the spin-off, especially if they make him shrink, but I want to see them wrap some things up this season if he is never going to be on Arrow again (like Oliver getting his company back) and I'm nervous they aren't going to do it properly with how little sense some plot lines have made this season.

 

I agree with FurryFury that scene between Flash and Cold was weak in an otherwise pretty good episode.  Stop stealing....no.  Leave Central City....nope, I like it here.  Okay, well at least stop killing....hmmm, sure.  Yea, not good enough for me to buy him as an anti-hero.  I buy Merlyn as more of that and I think his plot has been off all season.  Something kind of big would need to happen with Cold if he isn't going to be a villain on the spin-off.

 

And then there is Sara - I can't say how much I would hate for LP to bring her back to life.  I have said all along that I hope Caity is playing a different character altogether.  Sara coming back just makes so much of season three a waste.  So if they are going to go that route, I'd rather they use time travel to alter other parts of season three (maybe not a total reset, but alter it) so that going forward season four seems more promising.

 

And if Flash either accidently changes the past or Wells does it out of evil scheming - I think they can get away with it because it wouldn't be an ongoing theme of the shows (Barry could learn his lesson and how to control his powers in scenario a or Wells gets defeated in scenario b).  If they LP someone who has been dead and in the ground for months - how in the world can they ever have a conversation about why they don't bring someone back to life that doesn't end in "well the actor just isn't available"?

[Morrigan2575]

Which made NO sense. A horrible scene.

Apparently, that's actually closer to the comicbook version of the character, at least that's what I saw elsewhere.  

[FurryFury]

I don't really care about the comics. Barry letting a murderer who knows his identity and has just kidnapped his friend/almost killed the friend's brother free was character derailment and made me hate the show. Still watch it, but barely. So contrived.

[MarkHB]

Apparently, that's actually closer to the comicbook version of the character, at least that's what I saw elsewhere.  

 

Very true.  In the pre-Crisis period (so, 70's - early 80's), the Rogues, including Cold, Heat Wave, etc., plus some we haven't seen yet on this show (but in this context not Reverse Flash) were essentially all about beating the Flash purely for the sake of beating the Flash... nobody got killed, and really it was all a big game in a way.  I don't think Cold knew Barry's identity, though, at least not at that time.  Those books were a lot of fun, and personally I'm glad they're bringing some of that style to the show.

[FurryFury]

But Captain Cold HAS killed people on the show (and tortured and stuff). I can't understand why they just forgive him without any real reason for it while poor Peekaboo (who hasn't killed anyone) is imprisoned.

[kismet]

Morrigan,

 

I have no idea which would be worse - ending Raylicity in such a way as to show it was nothing but a block to olicity (I want it to mean something more for Felicity since as far as we know, she's only had one serious relationship prior to this and it ended badly), having Raylicity traverse over into the spin-off, or shutting it down via time travel on Flash.  I like Ray well enough and think he could work well on the spin-off, especially if they make him shrink, but I want to see them wrap some things up this season if he is never going to be on Arrow again (like Oliver getting his company back) and I'm nervous they aren't going to do it properly with how little sense some plot lines have made this season.

 

I agree with FurryFury that scene between Flash and Cold was weak in an otherwise pretty good episode.  Stop stealing....no.  Leave Central City....nope, I like it here.  Okay, well at least stop killing....hmmm, sure.  Yea, not good enough for me to buy him as an anti-hero.  I buy Merlyn as more of that and I think his plot has been off all season.  Something kind of big would need to happen with Cold if he isn't going to be a villain on the spin-off.

 

And then there is Sara - I can't say how much I would hate for LP to bring her back to life.  I have said all along that I hope Caity is playing a different character altogether.  Sara coming back just makes so much of season three a waste.  So if they are going to go that route, I'd rather they use time travel to alter other parts of season three (maybe not a total reset, but alter it) so that going forward season four seems more promising.

 

And if Flash either accidently changes the past or Wells does it out of evil scheming - I think they can get away with it because it wouldn't be an ongoing theme of the shows (Barry could learn his lesson and how to control his powers in scenario a or Wells gets defeated in scenario b).  If they LP someone who has been dead and in the ground for months - how in the world can they ever have a conversation about why they don't bring someone back to life that doesn't end in "well the actor just isn't available"?

I have no idea what the exit strategy for Raylicity is, possibly because I never understood the strategy to go there in the first place. I always felt that they should have avoided the cliche romantic triangle route, it rarely ever does a character justice, esp when you want them to all stick around. About the only show Ive seen it work on was Grey's Anatomy w/ McSteamy & McDreamy, but that was almost done to fix a harmful triangle, so it became more of a quadrangle. Plus, Ive mentioned it before Shonda Rimes is the queen of writing authentic organic character based triangles, that very rarely make you despise one of the legs. Arrow has proven they still have more to learn from the triangles since this s3 and yet another one has failed the show. Note to Arrow & Spin-off writers, avoid future romantic triangles.

 

So for the sake of the spin-off and BR, I want nothing more for Ray to get a fresh start. I think he character was misused in Arrow and that is a shame. I know you said you're new, but a few weeks ago there was a discussion about Ray on the "not so merry" thread. I'm not saying its all positive or all negative. And it might be hard to read if you enjoy Ray, but like most of the postings on this thread people made insightful and respectful posts. Its always nice to hear the other side of an argument, so don't hesitate to speak your opinion. Its brave to be on the site now that Ray hate has seemed to hit a fever pitch. I just don't get what the writers chose to do with him in 317, it was off character even for him. I mean the vile cockiness that was coming off him was just hard to swallow and the fact that he just chucked Felicity's opinions & assertions aside at the first opportunity really burned a lot of empathy I might have had for him. If you say you trust her, then actually try to trust her when the times get tough. I digress... Anyway, how they resolve ATOM on Arrow will be interesting to watch from an analytical POV. But its definitely murkier after 317.

 

Time travel is a slippery slope as is LP someone dead for about 9mo. I hope they have something good up their sleeve. Like others have said, its gonna be a costly (acting & CGI) show, so they need to make it good otherwise it may never leave production mode. Good side to a shrinking ATOM, maybe it will cost CGI less since they wont actually have to show him flying in the suit all the time?

[AyChihuahua]

 

But Captain Cold HAS killed people on the show (and tortured and stuff)

That was a terrible scene.  Like an hour beforehand he was threatening the lives of Cisco and his brother, and actually full-on tortured Cisco's brother.  Then suddenly he's like "Okay, fine, I'll just rob/steal, not kill."  It was a very obvious setup for the spinoff.  Hey, on the bright side, at least they are pretzeling Flash for the spinoff now too, instead of just poor Arrow.

 

And I'll put down money that this very expensive show with a pretty unpopular headline character is going to be a huge fail.  I doubt very much that it even gets to broadcast.

[Genki]

And I'll put down money that this very expensive show with a pretty unpopular headline character is going to be a huge fail.  I doubt very much that it even gets to broadcast.

 

If that happens please keep RP far away from Arrow. Caity Lotz can return. Also no more spin-off!

[nksarmi]

kismet - I know I'm in the minority opinion lol!  I knew the site because loads of people from TWOP came over here, but I avoided it to see if I could enjoy Once more if I stayed away from spoilers and well it worked until they started the latest plot its on.  Since I am no longer trying to avoid that and I can't stand Facebook Arrow posts anymore with the die Laurel die, Sara is hot!, Felicity is a slut, blah, blah, blah nonsense - I figured being in the minority opinion on a board where people at least try to make sense is better than the alternative.

 

I didn't mind Ray in the last episode, but that is because I could see the hurt through the bravado.  I said else ware that I can't even hold him not telling Felicity he got the suit working against him because that seemed so OOC for me that I have to roll my eyes at the writers on that one.  In my head, Felicity would have awoken to Ray in full suit going "guess what!!!!!" while grinning from ear to ear.

 

I think the spin-off will work - especially if they use it as a 12 episode filler series when Arrow and Flash go on break.  But good lord, I hope they don't make me roll my eyes too much with how they get their characters together/alive.

[BkWurm1]

kismet - I know I'm in the minority opinion lol!  I knew the site because loads of people from TWOP came over here, but I avoided it to see if I could enjoy Once more if I stayed away from spoilers and well it worked until they started the latest plot its on.  Since I am no longer trying to avoid that and I can't stand Facebook Arrow posts anymore with the die Laurel die, Sara is hot!, Felicity is a slut, blah, blah, blah nonsense - I figured being in the minority opinion on a board where people at least try to make sense is better than the alternative.

 

I didn't mind Ray in the last episode, but that is because I could see the hurt through the bravado.  I said else ware that I can't even hold him not telling Felicity he got the suit working against him because that seemed so OOC for me that I have to roll my eyes at the writers on that one.  In my head, Felicity would have awoken to Ray in full suit going "guess what!!!!!" while grinning from ear to ear.

 

I think the spin-off will work - especially if they use it as a 12 episode filler series when Arrow and Flash go on break.  But good lord, I hope they don't make me roll my eyes too much with how they get their characters together/alive.

I've been a Ray defender for the most part.  I still don't find him stalkerish and there were moments of genuine charm, though I've agreed that Ray and his reactions have often felt out of place in this very depressing season on Arrow and by default then Felicity in her scenes with Ray felt off,  that didn't make me dislike Ray.  Not a fan of the triangle but again, didn't make dislike Ray.   

 

And I absolutely could see Ray standing at the end of the bed, in full Iron Man mode grinning like a happy loon (cue Felicity waking up with a scream until she knows it's him)  It could have been comedy gold.   

 

They also could have had him then make some comment about the bugs he needs to fix before he takes her out again.  Felicity could even have scolded him for taking such a risk...it all writes itself.  They could have just mentioned it in passing during their flirty moment in "The Offer".  It wouldn't have been hard. 

 

Ray hiding his achievement does seem wildly out of character but it was a deliberate choice the writers made and made sure the audience knew.  (I still feel that Felicity must not know how long he kept that secret from her)  It feels like there has to be a reason why he hid it and the unspoken answer feels like he hasn't been honest about wanting that true partner.  It didn't help when he made his big speech about being so open and honest with such a big elephant in the room.   

 

Even though I want to sympathize with Ray - and that guy at the end seemed worthy of sympathy- , the way he acted all through the episode even after Oliver takes him down makes it very hard for me to trust that he has pure intentions with Felicity and since most of what I know about him is through how he treats her, I can't help but feel like he failed in a big way. 

 

 I liked Ray or at least the potential of him when his quirky ways and enthusiastic lack of boundaries were allowed to really be played up.  He'd drive the more straight  laced Stein up the wall.  Sara wouldn't know what to make up his bubbling optimism but like with Felicity, once she figured out it was sincere, she'd find him cute.  I still have hopes for him on the spin off but he took a huge hit in my eyes this week on Arrow.  

[Lokiberry]

After seeing the week's episode of The Flash, I can see Wentworth MIller bringing the "ratpack' vibe to the spinoff. He's awesome, in an unbelievably over-the-top kind of way. The weak link, to me, continues to be Ray. He's isn't cool, BR doesn't have  Victor Garber's acting chops, or Caity's martial arts skills. The only thing he brings is a fifth rate Iron Man suit knock off. He's definitely the weak link here.

[Starfish35]

I'm ok with Cold by himself. It's the other guy I'm really not happy about.

I'm still reserving my opinion on Ray Palmer until I see him on his own show. I admit that this week's episode gave me more reservations, but I still want to see what happens. I hated Rodney McKay until he ended up on Stargate Atlantis, and then he became my favorite character. I liked Angel more on his own show too. On the other hand, I loved Captain Jack Harkness on Doctor Who, but was not so much a fan on Torchwood (although to be fair that might have had something to do with the fact that I wasn't a fan of Torchwood period).