Spoilers & Speculation: Running Hot & Cold

[Starfish35]

I haven't seen tonight's episode yet, but this looks like loads of fun. :)

[zannej]

I have to say that I think it is odd that Eobard would want to create a world where men had to wear ties. They are like nooses. I don't think Eobard wore a tie on the Flash ever. He clearly wasn't fond of them. So, why would he want a tie? LOL. And I wonder if he would be back in the future or if he would stay in the past. I'd think he would want to go to the future.

[Argenta]

5 hours ago, zannej said:

I have to say that I think it is odd that Eobard would want to create a world where men had to wear ties. They are like nooses. 

Nooses, LOL. I suppose they could be convenient for grabbing misbehaving underlings. People get grabbed and semi-choked by their ties a lot in TV land. That doesn't explain why he would want to wear one himself, though ... although I did note the dark yellow colour, which I guess is meant to evoke the colour of his Reverse-Flash suit. 

I'm really looking forward to next week. 

[Sakura12]

I'm wondering why Darhk would want Sara and Amaya to work for him. Everyone else looks like they get sucky jobs and they still get to be badasses.

[MarkHB]

To go back to the "new character who originated outside the comics and Berlantiverse" topic, something struck me this morning.  There's a character who, indeed, originated elsewhere, who was actually on that list that was linked to, and who has already been introduced in the DCCW shows:

Eve Teschmacher, who took over as Cat's (later James's) assistant at Catco when Kara left for her ill-fated job as a reporter.

Granted, to date she's essentially been comic relief, and the only things we know about her are that she went to Yale and in her limited dialogue seems to be a nice person, but she also fits the bill, and she's already been cast.  Of course, she's in another universe, but that's.... malleable.

[Sakura12]

They also said not from the other Arrowverse shows. Teschmacher is on Supergirl.

[MarkHB]

6 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

They also said not from the other Arrowverse shows. Teschmacher is on Supergirl.

Right, but I kind of took that to mean it wasn't a character who was original to them, leaving "already adapted to the show from elsewhere" available.

Of course, by that reckoning it could also be George Lucas or Tolkien :) .

[Argenta]

17 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I'm wondering why Darhk would want Sara and Amaya to work for him. Everyone else looks like they get sucky jobs and they still get to be badasses.

I suspect just because they're both very competent fighters and would make good enforcers, and because it would give him a sadistic thrill to have his former enemies under his thumb?

[Miss Dee]

So I'm pretty well convinced now that Purcell's on his way out, based on what we've seen and what we know going into the next two episodes.

First of all, the writing on the Spear did not specifically say it required Christ's blood to destroy it; they just assumed that because that's how it was activated. But really, it was activated in a moment of sacrificial love (presumably why Christ died in the Arrowverse, divine or not). It's probably going to take a similar act of sacrificial love to neutralize or destroy it. Someone's going to have to get stabbed with the Spear and die.

Secondly, they are writing Mick to get his Big Damm Hero moment after (being manipulated emotionally and psychologically into) betraying the team. It's not a set up - he says in the extended promo that he made a horrible mistake. He's trying to atone. This suggests this story is going to wind up to a big climax, which would be his death by Spear-stabbing to show what his character really is. Not that they couldn't continue with his story into Season 3, but that's the kind or arc thats meant to be a capper, the last act. Plus it gives Purcell his well-deserved place in the spotlight and moment of glory before he leaves.

Finally, this story is echoing the Lord of the Rings, and that requires the hero to go "into the West." The title of the last episode is "Aruba", which is a comment Mick made in the first episode about getting sent to Aruba for vacation if he was going to be sent anywhere. Whatever "Aruba" proves to be in reality, it's going to signify Mick's journey Into the West, never to be seen by the Fellowship again.

It breaks my heart, and I honestly don't know if I can continue watching because my enjoyment of this show is so caught up with enjoyment of his character with the Legends, but I can't ignore the setup I'm seeing. One way or another, I'm certain Mick is gone at the end of Season 2.

God, I hope I'm wrong.... But if I'm not: Leonard Snart, you're DEAD to me.

[Starfish35]

Oh man.  I hope you're wrong. :(  Sara and Mick are my two essential characters.  Losing Mick would seriously dampen my enjoyment of the show. 

[kismet]

On 3/20/2017 at 6:32 PM, Lokiberry said:

The Flash is adding Tracy Brand, a character who will be celebrated as a genius in the future, for 4 episodes. She's described as quirky and full of idiosyncrasies.

http://tvline.com/2017/03/20/the-flash-season-3-anne-dudek-recurring-tracy-brand/

I've searched DC wikipedia and can find no reference to her, and I don't remember her from any DC show. I know that she most likely has nothing to do with LoT, but I can't help speculating. If she's not the character we've been talking about, she still might be a replacement for another character, like Martin or Ray.

With them using DD, MM & RF, I would not be surprised if they took Tracy/Anne Dudek and ran with her character in s3. Also remember the most of the cast was Flarrowverse cast-offs to begin with. I could see MG getting around his previous tweet by saying that the character had not come into the Flarrowverse yet, at the time of the tweet. MG is nothing but a verbal loopholer.

[kismet]

15 minutes ago, Miss Dee said:

First of all, the writing on the Spear did not specifically say it required Christ's blood to destroy it; they just assumed that because that's how it was activated. But really, it was activated in a moment of sacrificial love (presumably why Christ died in the Arrowverse, divine or not). It's probably going to take a similar act of sacrificial love to neutralize or destroy it. Someone's going to have to get stabbed with the Spear and die.

I believe you might be onto something. But I really think they are going to have Snart make the sacrifice again. I think they will set-up Mick to do it, and just like in s1 - Snart will step in and be the hero of the moment because he loves Mick.

I have no idea about the BTS aspect of the cast shuffling. So if DP wants out, I think they have written him an out. However, if he wants to stay - they have made it so WM can come & go as he pleases.

I never thought I would enjoy Mick as much as I did, but they have done a tremendous job with him this season. I hope we don't lose him to fulfill the fantasies of the writers room to have a rotating cast. He is the most original of the current Legends.

I really love Stein, so I will also really want him to stay. I have not seen anymore anvils for him leaving than the others on the short list (Mick, Amaya & Nate). If VG wants out, I can see them writing it so - but I think they like Stein for his brain & gravitas.

I don't think they have any intention of getting rid of CL, BR or AD. C&B are all over the media for the show. They went out of their way to accommodate AD.

I know they promoted Jax to be second in command, but honestly its been 2 seasons and I still wonder why he is on the ship. That being said as the only POC on the Legends, I think the show will keep him.

Sorry, but I think Amaya is headed for Africa. She has a destiny to return to. It sucks because I like her, while also hating a rotating door on female characters, but hers is the most logical to leave.

And Nate, well without Amaya & the Justice League Grandfather, do we need a historian on the ship? Gideon knows a lot about history. And while I do think its been fun to have the Steel CGI there, I think it's become expensive. And unlike Ray, without his powers Nate can be a narrative drag or to similar to pre-existing legends.

Honestly, I think whoever leaves will be based upon what their plans are for s3. You could make a case for all of them being both simultaneously replaceable and irreplaceable to the team. And I wonder if TPTB even know that yet. I think everyone will survive to the s3 premiere and then the big departures will be explained in s3.

[tofutan]

One interesting speculation I read was that Heatwave and Cold could come back in some form but return to Flash for a while. 

Personally, I always got the impression that Wentworth considers Flash more his home than Legends. 

Edited March 22, 2017 by tofutan

[Starfish35]

That doesn't really help me since I don't watch Flash anymore, and I didn't really care for the versions of their characters on that show anyway.  

I remember when I found out Dominic Purcell was being added to the Legends cast, I groaned. And now he's become one of my two favorite characters on the show. 

I totally see the argument @Miss Dee is making, but I gotta hope it doesn't work out that way.  Losing him would be a major blow for the show IMO, and of course for me. :(

[Miss Dee]

I swear to God, I don't wanna be right! I will rejoice if I'm completely arse-up and Mick is with the Legends for some time to come, crass and snarky and secret-heart-of-gold-y as ever. I will stand corrected on victorious feet!

But I'm genre-savvy, I've watched a lot of TV and read a lot of books, and I kick ass on analytical English papers. It's a curse.

Edited March 22, 2017 by Miss Dee
You can't claim to kick ass on English papers and then not even spell your post correctly.

[Proteus]

I read your Mick assesment and have to disagree. I don't think he's leaving.

[Miss Dee]

Please argue me out of my reasoning, @Proteus. I'd love to hear an alternate theory that better fits what I'm seeing! Give me the hope Nate couldn't give to Tolkien! :)

[Starfish35]

Well the good(?) news is that we don't have to wait long to find out, one way or the other. 

Mick fills such a unique role in the cast, though.  All of the others could theoretically be replaced, even Sara, hard as that is for me to admit.  But Mick is unique.  If this is true, it will be a big loss for the show IMO.

And while I can find no flaws in your argument @Miss Dee (and indeed, I think the statement by Klemmer about the "battle for Mick Rory's soul" kind of adds to it), I do wonder about the repetitiveness of having the first season end with one Rogue sacrificing himself, and the second season ending with the other one sacrificing himself.  I mean, it's been done. 

But at the same time I can't deny that it does seem like that's what it's building up to. Soooo..........:(

Edited March 22, 2017 by Starfish35

[kismet]

I truly think they will just sacrifice Snart again. It makes narrative sense, although he manipulate Mick, he does love him. I think their bond will be stronger than greed or temptation. And it makes contractual sense. WM has a limited contract to kill him loses nothing for them. And unless DP wants out, I think he is the most unique of the personalities. So he will be hard to replace.

That being said, every character is replaceable so should TPTB decide to cut anyone I do think it will be possible to replace them. Some would be harder than others, but a case can be made for all of the characters. The most unique thing Mick has going for him is his time as Kronos, and the show seems to gloss over that. On a time travel show, having any experience with time travel & the time masters gives you a narrative advantage.

[kismet]

21 minutes ago, dkb said:

Also I thought Nate's backstory was that he never left his home or town because of his condition and that made him want to be an historian, because he wanted to experience life through others, but now he had a semester abroad at Oxford? Maybe I'm not remembering correctly how he presented himself in the beginning, but that was weird because now every episode he has another anecdote that doesn't really go with what was presented in the beginning. Why did he have to include "his girlfriend Wendy" while talking about something? That was so unnecessary.

I didn't think anything of the Wendy comment. Besides, it was kind of unnecessary. However - now it makes me think of Peter Pan, perhaps the show will tackle something with Wendy Darling... maybe she is the new member of the show. A long descendant of the original Wendy. I'm joking and yet I am not. I think it fits the vague criteria the writers provided. She originated on another show, never appeared in comics, and has no connection to the Berlanti Universe.

Plus the show needs a Wendy for all the lost boys and Peter Pans in the Flarrowverse.

[Proteus]

2 hours ago, Miss Dee said:

Please argue me out of my reasoning, @Proteus. I'd love to hear an alternate theory that better fits what I'm seeing! Give me the hope Nate couldn't give to Tolkien! :)

I don't think the season has to end with a sacrifice. DP has always made it sound like he's with this show for the long haul. I doubt TPTB would decide to get rid of him. So unless he wants to leave, I doubt he does.

[Maverick]

 So the latest episode introduced a new 'rule' that can't be violated:  certain events can't be meddled with, even a little.  So maybe the risk they have to take is something to do with visiting Christ's life.

[Starfish35]

Spoiler for special guest appearance next week

Edited March 23, 2017 by Starfish35

[BkWurm1]

The Ghost Fox Goddess awaits you.  (spec but if you made her outfit green it would look almost just like the Ghost Fox Killer from the comics but if they made it green then everyone would think she was the Green Arrow, lol.)

So here's the real question.  Is she going to be a villain or a hero?  

Edited March 23, 2017 by BkWurm1

[Starfish35]

Not sure, but it should be fun either way.  :) MG has sworn that Felicity on Arrow will never get a costume, but I guess here they can play with the concept a little bit, like with old!Oliver last season.

Hopefully it's more than a five-second cameo, if they went to the trouble to design a costume for her.

Edited March 23, 2017 by Starfish35

[Starfish35]

2 hours ago, Maverick said:

 So the latest episode introduced a new 'rule' that can't be violated:  certain events can't be meddled with, even a little.  So maybe the risk they have to take is something to do with visiting Christ's life.

The TVInsider interview referenced earlier in the thread made it sound like it was the rule about going back to occasions you'd already been to.  

[Sakura12]

Felicity's costume looks awesome. They said she wouldn't get a mask, but this is a different reality. That's what makes LoT great they can do whatever. 

I'm thinking a place called Doomworld could use a hero. I would love to see Felicity and Mick working together to save reality. 

Edited March 23, 2017 by Sakura12

[MarkHB]

The color scheme actually makes her look a bit like Huntress (I know, Arrow did Huntress already although I never saw it).  Did they tease her appearance on LoT at all during or after Arrow?

8 hours ago, Maverick said:

So the latest episode introduced a new 'rule' that can't be violated:  certain events can't be meddled with, even a little.  So maybe the risk they have to take is something to do with visiting Christ's life.

I strongly doubt it, because if you go there then no matter how you handle it a great many people are going to be very, very angry.  That's the real reason for the rule.

[Lokiberry]

I think Felicity's costume looks like Spoiler.

[darkestboy]

It's very similar to Spoiler to be honest.

Actually, isn't Spoiler a character they could have for Season 3?

Whatever the dynamic, the show needs to even up the gender roles. If Amaya's leaving (and I'd rather she didn't), then two female characters are needed for Season 3. Maybe they could get Mari on board instead and a new Huntress or something.

I also think given that he's getting an animated series, perhaps The Ray could be a new regular. Plus we could do with a gay male character in the mix too.

[Starfish35]

12 minutes ago, darkestboy said:

Maybe they could get Mari on board instead

Well, if I understand correctly, the reason they didn't have Mari in the first place was because Megalyn Echikunwoke didn't want to do it.  So they created Amaya.  Which was fine by me - in my opinion Maisie Richardson-Sellers is the better actress. 

In other news, Megalyn is apparently dating Chris Rock now.  Found that out when I looked her up just now on Google. 

Edited March 23, 2017 by Starfish35

[darkestboy]

I like both Mari and Amaya so either is a win for me but as I said, the show needs to even up the gender roles next season. If I had to lose a newbie, I'd go with Nate to be honest. I don't hate him but he's the weaker character of the gang.

Gong into Season 3 I'd have: Sara, Rip, Ray, Jax, Amaya, new female character, the Ray character.

[Starfish35]

Nate would definitely be my choice to leave,  but unfortunately it doesn't sound like he's going anywhere. 

Sara and Mick are my top two, then Ray and Rip, Jax, Stein, and Amaya.  But I would welcome more female characters certainly.  

Edited March 23, 2017 by Starfish35

[Starfish35]

27 minutes ago, darkestboy said:

Actually, isn't Spoiler a character they could have for Season 3?

I didn't know who Spoiler was, so I had to look her up.  

I don't know.  Stephanie Brown is part of the Batfamily, isn't she?  They seem to keep a tight hold on all things Bat-related.  

[Delphi]

Pfft, not Steph.   DC probably offered Steph up to Arrow to be tortured and killed the second Arrow got renewed for season 2.

[MarkHB]

I really liked Steph when she was introduced in the 90's Tim Drake Robin book; I quit collecting comics before she became Batgirl and then Robin, but I did predict early on that she would become Batgirl. (Unfortunately, I predicted that on the message boards of the old Prodigy network, so it's lost to posterity.  But I was right!)  I didn't even think of her, but I do agree with @Lokiberry that it looks a LOT like her!

[Lokiberry]

5 hours ago, Starfish35 said:

I didn't know who Spoiler was, so I had to look her up.  

I don't know.  Stephanie Brown is part of the Batfamily, isn't she?  They seem to keep a tight hold on all things Bat-related.  

I'm not so sure. Stephanie's always been the red-headed stepchild at DC. They may have less of a problem with her non-Batgirl identity being used.

Of course, regardless of what her costume looks like, they might just go ahead and have Felicity be Overwatch.

Edited March 23, 2017 by Lokiberry

[Starfish35]

I was more talking about whether there was any possibility Legends could conceivably bring Stephanie on as a regular, than thinking about them using the Spoiler name for her.  Although I guess they could - I think the purple is probably a nod to that identity.

I think Felicity will be probably be Ghost Fox something, though.  They mentioned on Arrow a few episodes ago that Felicity's old hacker name was Ghost Fox Goddess.   I thought it was just an obscure Easter egg (well, obscure for us non-comics fans anyway) but it might have been a setup for this. 

Edited March 23, 2017 by Starfish35

[kismet]

On 3/23/2017 at 0:15 PM, Starfish35 said:

I didn't know who Spoiler was, so I had to look her up.  

I don't know.  Stephanie Brown is part of the Batfamily, isn't she?  They seem to keep a tight hold on all things Bat-related.  

I think they do, however they already gave a lot of Oracle to FS, so I wouldn't be surprised if they gave her some Spoiler as well.

Personally, I'm really excited to have FS on LoT and in a mask. Hopefully, it lives up to my expectations.

I highly doubt FS will become a regular on LoT, so if they make her like Spoiler it won't matter. I also doubt that Stephanie Brown will be considering as a new character due to her close ties to the Batfamily.

19 hours ago, Lokiberry said:

I'm not so sure. Stephanie's always been the red-headed stepchild at DC. They may have less of a problem with her non-Batgirl identity being used.

Of course, regardless of what her costume looks like, they might just go ahead and have Felicity be Overwatch.

Overwatch is the dumbest name, anything they use to change that will be a welcome edit for me. Although Spoiler is not much better, though FS does tend to spoil a lot of people's plans. So here's hoping its just inspiration and not just a name change.

19 hours ago, Starfish35 said:

I was more talking about whether there was any possibility Legends could conceivably bring Stephanie on as a regular, than thinking about them using the Spoiler name for her.  Although I guess they could - I think the purple is probably a nod to that identity.

I think Felicity will be probably be Ghost Fox something, though.  They mentioned on Arrow a few episodes ago that Felicity's old hacker name was Ghost Fox Goddess.   I thought it was just an obscure Easter egg (well, obscure for us non-comics fans anyway) but it might have been a setup for this. 

Ghost Fox Goddess is an amazing name and I think it fits FS so well. I really hope they just start calling her Ghost Fox. Maybe it can be part of a O/F reconciliation that she gets to pick a better code name for herself.

[kismet]

So if I am putting together a list of people who need to stay on the Waverider - Stein, Sara, Gideon, Ray, Rip & Mick (in that order of importance for me).

People I wouldn't mind staying - Jax & Amaya. I have been prepared to lose Amaya from the beginning so I never really got attached. And the writers still flounder with Jax. That being said, I do enjoy them, its just if we need to make cuts, they are on my short list.

People who could find a new job - Nate. Sorry but he just brings little to nothing to the team. I love the history angle, but Gideon can do that.

Lastly what is desperately needed on the ship - more FEMALES. I really wouldn't mind Lily getting recruited.

I miss Snart, but not enough to really need or want him back, and I think a lot of that has to do with knowing the WM doesn't fully want to be on the show. So I prefer him guesting.

[KirkB]

I'll follow Kismet's lead.

People I want to stay on the Waverider (in order): Sara, Mick, and Rip. With Snart gone they're my main reasons for watching.

People I wouldn't mind staying: Ray, Stein, Jax and Amaya. I can take or leave Ray, though I like him more than I did on Arrow. I like Victor Garber but since the show seems unable or unwilling to merge Stein and Jax most of the time I could lose Firestorm pretty easily. Amaya hasn't (IMO) been given enough focus for me to care as much about her as I should, so I wouldn't be broken up if she left.

People I could do without: Nate. I don't dislike him, exactly, but he's just...there, and I'm really not interested. Plus his presence messed up the Ray and Mick scenes I liked after Snart died.

I absolutely agree the show needs more women (and Sara probably would too). The biggest problem though, I think, is DC. They're not likely to let LoT use anyone they have even half ideas for in the movies.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, kismet said:

host Fox Goddess is an amazing name and I think it fits FS so well. I really hope they just start calling her Ghost Fox. Maybe it can be part of a O/F reconciliation that she gets to pick a better code name for herself.

I'm picturing Oliver getting it wrong and calling her Foxy Ghost Goddess instead. 

[Proteus]

Sara, Rip, and Mick are my must be on the show people.

Then Stein, Jax, and Ray.

Amaya isn't even an issue in my mind anymore because I think she's definitely gone.

Nate I wish would leave. He's the most useless team member.

[Lokiberry]

I'd like to keep Sara, Rip, Ray, Jax, and Mick. I'd be okay with Martin leaving, either ending Firestorm entirely, or finding Jax a new partner. While I'd love to keep Amaya, she's a great character who unfortunately got stuck in an insipid ship that did her no good, I'm 99% sure she's already gone. Nate can go any time. I'd love to get Snart back. He's one of my favorite characters in the Flarrowverse.

Gypsy would be a great addition to the show. Her ability to open portals would open a lot of story possibilities. Traveling in the multiverse would make a nice change from mucking up  time, and it's always a lot of fun when they do it on Flash.

[Starfish35]

Oh I LOVE the Gypsy idea.  :)  Please make this happen now, show! Lol.

[Proteus]

I like her with Cisco so I wouldn't want to see that ended so she could be on LOT.

[Miss Dee]

People I wouldn't mind leaving: Nate.

People I would like to personally launch out the cargo bay doors while in deep space: Pre-Waverider Legion-of-Doom-choosing Snart.

People I would like to stay: Sara, Amaya. Normally Stein and Jax, but they're regulated to the first group after last week, unless they can redeem themselves. Also Post-Waverider Snart, if he shows up. Maybe Tolkien.

People who need to stay: Ray (although you're on notice, buddy), Rip.

People for whom Miss Dee would use the Spear to keep them on the Waverider as a good guy so it's a damn good thing she doesn't actually have it... I'll give you three guesses.

Edited March 24, 2017 by Miss Dee

[Sakura12]

I'll play.

People that need to stay: Sara, Mick, Rip (surprisingly I like him more this season than last season) and Jax (I might be the only one that really likes Jax. I love his sibling relationship with Sara).

People I hope will stay: Snart and Amaya.

People that I'm okay with losing: Stein and Ray

Person I want gone and to never see again: Nate. (I don't hate him like the Hawks, but I just don't find him interesting or useful. We have Rip and Gideon as our historians)

Other characters I'd like to see on the show. I'm still pulling for Lady Blackhawk, Zatanna, Gypsy, Lily Stein, andriod Gideon, basically another female character added without losing one. We should be allowed to have more than 2 women on these CWDC shows at a time. 

Edited March 24, 2017 by Sakura12

[Argenta]

I think Nate has been voted off...

[squidprincess]

Hah, my must stay choice is probably obvious too.  I will include Jax and Sara too.

Beyond that, I really would rather not lose anyone, but if I have to pick then Nate.  He has grown on me, but still, I like the others more.