S01.E08: The Lyon's Roar

[Milz]

 

Yea Anika is black. I mean I know shes biracial, but in the eyes of the average black person and the average white person she's black. Just like Obama is the first black president and Halle Berry is one of the few black actresses to win an Oscar, etc. So its not the same.

 

The average black person and white person need to start watching Finding Your Roots with Henry Louis Gates, Jr. and Dr. Gates' other shows because he's found that nearly all African Americans are biracial or "multiracial"---vast majority are mixed with European and a very, very, incredibly small minority are mixed with Native American.

[Guest]

I thought it was stupid of Vernon and Andre to blindside Lucious with that vote, with the reasoning that they never dreamed he'd be anything but with them.  Why not ask the man, he's not dead yet, and it's a sensitive, important issue.  

[aprilbabe]

The average black person and white person need to start watching Finding Your Roots with Henry Louis Gates, Jr. and Dr. Gates' other shows because he's found that nearly all African Americans are biracial or "multiracial"---vast majority are mixed with European and a very, very, incredibly small minority are mixed with Native American.

Of course they are, but it doesn't change that fact that despite actually being biracial or mutliracial, society still catagorizes them (us, im included as well) as black.

I was just saying the argument  that  Anika is biracial so what Lucious said to Andre is hypocritical doesn't hold water, because despite being biracial when she walks into the room she is considered black. Much like Obama isn't referred to as the first biracial president, but the first black president.

[Milz]

Of course they are, but it doesn't change that fact that despite actually being biracial or mutliracial, society still catagorizes them (us, im included as well) as black.

I was just saying the argument  that  Anika is biracial so what Lucious said to Andre is hypocritical doesn't hold water, because despite being biracial when she walks into the room she is considered black. Much like Obama isn't referred to as the first biracial president, but the first black president.

 

My guess is that Obama is identified as the first black president, rather than the first biracial  president, in order to keep things simple for simple minds.

 

Anyhow, to me, Andre and Lucious are using women (Rhonda and Anika) to gain credibility and status. That's why I view Andre's "bringing home that white woman" on the same level with Lucious bringing home that upper middle class, Julliard educated, debutante woman.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Milz

[mostlylurking]

Poor Andre! How dare he get good grades and go to college! I can see why his dad is so ashamed of him (eyeroll).  Please please please let Andre blackmail his dear old dad with the Bunkie info.  I need this to happen at some point.

Cookie makes the show for me, but come on. This is a woman who did 17 years in prison, missing her children's childhood, and she can just take Lucious back just like that?! After he divorced her while she was in prison covering up for his ass in the process and never visited her?? THAT I just can not get behind.

Oh and did I mention Lucious is the worst?  NO SYMPATHY.

I like the dynamic between Hakeem and Jamal. Instead of taking the typical route of the brothers hating each other fighting over the family business, you can see they genuinely love each other and get along. I would like to see them interacting more with Andre, though.

Edited March 2, 2015 by mostlylurking

[politichick]

I would love for the family to come together and become an unstoppable force. I've always had a soft spot for Hakeem and ironically he is the one with the biggest heart in that family and seems like he values his family the most, Luscious might be just right that Hakeem is more like Cookie. wouldn't it be funny if years into the future Hakeem still turns out to be the one best suited to run the company? making Luscious right in choosing him. please show let that adorable girl be Jamal's daughter, I want her to stay.

This is an interesting theory. Too bad Hakeem is still so young. Even though he drinks at public watering holes, I think he's only 19 or 20, but because they're in NYC and he's rich he can get away with the underage drinking -- just like on Gossip Girl.

 

I also agree he has the biggest heart, which is why I'm okay with the seeming quickness with which he is growing more accepting of Cookie. I think it's in part because of the news he's learned about his father. Also, Jamal said he wasn't going to put up with the way Hakeem was treating their mother. I don't think he's ready to go out to brunch or bare his soul to Cookie, but he'll be polite and ask her for a favor if he needs it. And once he opened the door for her, he also dropped that mummy crap with Camilla.

 

I love this show so much. Sad there are just 3 episodes left, but know it's for the best.

[PrincessTT]

This is an interesting theory. Too bad Hakeem is still so young. Even though he drinks at public watering holes, I think he's only 19 or 20, but because they're in NYC and he's rich he can get away with the underage drinking -- just like on Gossip Girl.

 

I'm not even sure that he's that old. It was said in an earlier episode that he was 11 months old when Cookie went to prison (and he definitely looked that young in the flashback) and she was in prison for 17 years which would put Hakeem at around 18. 

[cleo]

I think the kid is Lucious' daughter.

[ridethemaverick]

The average black person and white person need to start watching Finding Your Roots with Henry Louis Gates, Jr. and Dr. Gates' other shows because he's found that nearly all African Americans are biracial or "multiracial"---vast majority are mixed with European and a very, very, incredibly small minority are mixed with Native American.

That's not news to anyone but...well, I don't know anyone who doesn't know that. People may try to pretend or forget for various reasons but we know the deal. Still doesn't change the construction of race in the USA and the accepted ideas of who is black and who is white. That's slowly changing but for now, the Anikas and Obamas are black.

[marceline]

While I'm pissing people off, I am going to say that I don't understand what seems to be a one-sided view against Ronda.  So because they have a supposed open marriage (which right now I'm not so sure was openness as opposed to her going along to appease/keep her husband), she is now deserving of any and all mistreatment and has no right to object to the use of her own body?  She can't say no because she once said yes?  I can't get with that.  

 

You aren't pissing me off. I wholeheartedly agree. I've noticed that a lot of the conversation around Rhonda  - not just here - seems designed to take away her agency. The viewpoint seems to be either she's engaging in this behavior to please Andre or she's a conniving bitch who is just using him. I think neither is true. I think she loves her husband and they have similar....predilections. 

 

I've said numerous times that Andre/Rhonda are the healthiest relationship on the show because they are the most honest. Rhonda was completely down for a little fun with both/either Mr. and Mrs. She simply changed her mind when she saw what she would be dealing with. (Note to Rhonda: Google is your friend.) Her big mistake was in trying to force herself to go through with it by getting drunk.

Edited March 3, 2015 by marceline

[aradia22]

Well, that escalated quickly. I'm not sure how it happened but this show became a mess. It started to lose focus an episode or two ago and now it's just spinning out into crazy. Not the fun crazy that we started with but an unfocused, unmotivated randomness. 

 

I legitimately do not understand what Lucious wants. I do not understand his motivations. Not in a good way. He's not a slick, conniving character who plays things close to the vest. He's a character with appetites and ambitions who has a hot temper. I should not be so confused about how he feels about Cookie and Anika. They just seem to be writing haphazardly right now with him blowing hot and cold depending on what the story needs at the moment. Like with Jamal. I do not know what is going on.

 

I cannot see where they're going with Jamal's daughter who let's be honest, is pretty clearly not his.

 

Rhonda and Andre make no sense to me. Again, they're not even fun crazy. They just make no sense. I can buy that they like to play sexual games but now she's fed up with it (especially since it isn't always that sexy) but I do not understand why he's this unstable and it doesn't feel consistent with the other information we have about the character. Was he playing Russian Roulette or firing blanks? Shoutout to them for that song choice though. I love The Platters.

 

The racial stuff is just confusing. Just say what you want to say, Empire. Cookie's dislike of Anika seems compounded by her perceived "whiteness". I didn't pick up on it when she was just calling her Halle Berry but it clicked into place when she called her Lena Horne this episode. I get that she could find that threatening. But Lucious thinks Andre doesn't care about his family (in spite of all the evidence to the contrary and how he instinctively covers for Lucious) because he married a "white woman"? That part about fitting in at the end just felt so sloppy. If the show wants to make a point this heavy they have to do it more coherently.

[aradia22]

 

Of course, this was all topped by Cookie telling Camilla that she wish she had been her prison bitch because she bet she has a long tongue. Bwah! Who writes this?

I speculate that she is playing Lucious this entire time.  Revenge ain't just a show on ABC.

I feel so sorry for Cookie, she's only been with one guy and he abandoned her and is deceitful to her.  I hope she can find some happiness.

Knowing what I know of soaps I'm not going to rule out Cookie having a lover from prison and working to get revenge on Lucious. Who cares about internal consistency as long as there's drama?

 

Little Lola's adorable but that scene was so stilted and awkward.

YUP.

 

The director is super cute, so go now, Jamal. Especially if you're over Michael so fast.

Time is weird on this show. I feel like we see the action day to day but certain storylines seem to move faster than others. For instance, Hakeem came around on Cookie really quickly given years of built up resentment.

 

Hakeem's dating his mommy issues is someone Lucious may approve of at this point since he doesn't approve of the white wife or Jamal being gay.

OK, it is kind of amusing that he's overlooking the one relationship he should really have the biggest problem with. I know he doesn't know about it, but he easily could if he bothered paying attention.

 

Lucious is going to die alone at this rate.

LOL.

 

I feel like i'm losing the hope that I had with Anika becoming a formidable foe who could go toe to toe with Cookie, but again with tonight they had her doing some really dumb things. I thought for a second that she wanted to marry Luscious so fast  because her dad was secretly poisoning him and she wanted to get married to perhaps get in the will somehow.

I agree. I was expecting some more devious plan. Like, if she'd shut down her feelings and was all about securing her place in the company and in his will, cool. At this point I'm not even expecting much from her going to his competitor either than ruining the IPO which to be honest, no one except Lucious cares about.

 

I think Andre was right that what Lucious really doesn't like is that he doesn't have the "talent" that Lucious values.  Or I don't know. Maybe Andre did have some talent but decided to go another way so he feels like it's rejection. THE SHAME of an Ivy League graduate son.  THE HORROR!

I was kind of expecting Andre to be in the recording booth trying to sing... and not almost commit suicide (or not?). Either he'd be terrible in a comic/tragic moment or he'd be good and we'd realize that he's unwilling to play Lucious' game and compromise the man he wants to be to strive to be the kind of performer that his father would respect. He'll be respected on his terms or not at all. 

 

Still, I can see why Andre went that way: a kid with that unstable a childhood is going to seek structure and also try to be the good kid so that his parents don't have  worry about that kid at least. [...] That degree opens up so many avenues of 'safe' revenue. Andre was making sure that he or his kids would never have to live the way he did ever again.

TobinAlbers, I would LOVE it if they were writing Andre this way without all the nonsense. 

 

In fact, I'd take it a step further and say that Luscious' entire problem is that he seemingly can only relate to his sons as projections of himself.  That's why he takes Jamal's homosexuality so personally

If he weren't such a womanizer, I swear there were moments this episode I thought we were going to learn that Lucious has been gay or bisexual this whole time.

[Kendall]

The average black person and white person need to start watching Finding Your Roots with Henry Louis Gates, Jr. and Dr. Gates' other shows because he's found that nearly all African Americans are biracial or "multiracial"---vast majority are mixed with European and a very, very, incredibly small minority are mixed with Native American.

 

That little tidbit only benefits the black person that needs to be more than "just black." More blacks than not, have no desire to search every branch of their family tree to find that one non-black person to claim. Personally, once you get to the great-great grandparents, you're trying way too hard and unless there is an obvious or significant reason as to why that non-black needs to be remembered, let math be your guide. There is no reason as to why you are claiming 1/16th of something that you can barely see when compared to remaining 15/16ths.

 

Anika is immediately bi-racial through her parents, but she has chosen to "pass" for black in lifestyle and profession. You wouldn't know she was half white until you saw her father as there is nothing about her appearance that would indicate otherwise. And, please don't suggest her complexion because there are plenty of black people her complexion and lighter, who would have to reach far back to find the white person in their family.

 

Anika reads as someone that wants to be at Empire and shares in what Lucious ultimately wants for the company, moreso than Andre, so despite what is on paper for the two of them, it's the unspoken, but deliberate actions and attitude that he's connecting to or disconnecting from.

[coloradoqt]

 

I just find it mighty funny that people stand behind all the unproven hateful ish lucious says to andre but lucious him over the coals for everything else. I think there's a disturbing tread of anti-intellectualism in the black community that Lee Daniels is poking at.

I THINK you believe Andre and the Trai Byers are one and the same. Trai is an actor playing the role of Andre. Trai's bio has nothing to do with Andre.  

 

She also has questioned Andre pitting his brothers against each other (can't remember which episode, that's the problem with binge watching

 Andre is not doing community outreach . I haven't  heard  Trai  say anything about anything.and whatever he does say has nothing to do with his role as Andre.

 

 Andre has a white wife on the show and that is what everyone is talking about.

I think  the reason Lucious  see Andre's marriage to a white woman as a problem and betrayal and not his to Anika is because Lucious knows what Lucious is going to do and not do.

He doesn't know what Andre might do. Andre has no interest in the music business as a musician like Lucious, Cookie,Hakeem and Jamal.

So i'm sure in Lucious's mind if Andre controlled Empire with a white wife whose family has no interest in music, no background in music,no passion or respect for Lucious's music,   and Andre with no interest in music, Empire would become whatever his wife wanted.

 

"She also has questioned Andre pitting his brothers against each other (can't remember which episode, that's the problem with binge watching"

 

It was the first episode and Rhonda's words to Andre was something about let them fight maybe they will kill each other so he is right about Rhonda trying to split up the family.

Rhonda called Andre about Tiana and her girlfriend and posted it on the internet . Andre has been conspiring with her to do other things that is not necessarily in the best interest of the family and Empire.

Lucious ,whether you love him or hate him, did not get where he is without the music, and reading people.

 

Also I don't believe Lucious  is going to die. Without Lucious there is no story line.

[loveigniting]

I THINK you believe Andre and the Trai Byers are one and the same. Trai is an actor playing the role of Andre. Trai's bio has nothing to do with Andre. 

Andre is not doing community outreach . I haven't  heard  Trai  say anything about anything.and whatever he does say has nothing to do with his role as Andre.

 

 

coloradoqt, when the poster you were quoting was mentioning Andre's bio, they are actually talking about Andre's bio on the Fox website. It has nothing to do with Trai Byers. There's profiles on everyone. Here's Andre's which includes the info that was brought up

Edited March 3, 2015 by loveigniting

[Milz]

That's not news to anyone but...well, I don't know anyone who doesn't know that. People may try to pretend or forget for various reasons but we know the deal. Still doesn't change the construction of race in the USA and the accepted ideas of who is black and who is white. That's slowly changing but for now, the Anikas and Obamas are black.

 

If people really did know that and really understood that, then the current practice of using skin color to define "race" would not be used because it would have changed sooner than later.

 

 

 Andre has a white wife on the show and that is what everyone is talking about.

I think  the reason Lucious  see Andre's marriage to a white woman as a problem and betrayal and not his to Anika is because Lucious knows what Lucious is going to do and not do.

 

 

Good point. But it still doesn't negate the idea that Lucious is with Anika because he's using her socioeconomic background/status and her educational status to increase his own, imo. It's like Mike Tyson and his marriage to a pediatrician some years ago.

 

 

Also I don't believe Lucious  is going to die. Without Lucious there is no story line.

 

I think they're going to Stephen Hawking him. Which would be a challenging role for Terrence Howard or any actor: playing a man who is slowly losing his body function and needing to rely on others to do things for him as simple as wiping his nose.

 

 

[aprilbabe]

If people really did know that and really understood that, then the current practice of using skin color to define "race" would not be used because it would have changed sooner than later.

 

 

People know, they just don't care. not enough to try to change anything in regards to how we determine race.

[Guest]

That little tidbit only benefits the black person that needs to be more than "just black." More blacks than not, have no desire to search every branch of their family tree to find that one non-black person to claim. Personally, once you get to the great-great grandparents, you're trying way too hard and unless there is an obvious or significant reason as to why that non-black needs to be remembered, let math be your guide. There is no reason as to why you are claiming 1/16th of something that you can barely see when compared to remaining 15/16ths.

 

Anika is immediately bi-racial through her parents, but she has chosen to "pass" for black in lifestyle and profession. You wouldn't know she was half white until you saw her father as there is nothing about her appearance that would indicate otherwise. And, please don't suggest her complexion because there are plenty of black people her complexion and lighter, who would have to reach far back to find the white person in their family.

 

Anika reads as someone that wants to be at Empire and shares in what Lucious ultimately wants for the company, moreso than Andre, so despite what is on paper for the two of them, it's the unspoken, but deliberate actions and attitude that he's connecting to or disconnecting from.

 

Of little importance but I thought Anika was white the first several episodes.  I figured she was part of Lucious' "movin on up" thing until the story and cast showed otherwise.  

[Grace19]

Anika looks biracial to me.

[Grace19]

I don't know about cookie telling Hakeem she loves him as much as she loves Jamal, because I just watched episodes 2 and 3. She was actively working to pull focus from Hakeem for Jamal, Rochelle had to tell her that it was cold blooded and that Hakeem was her son too. I don't doubt that Cookie loves her children, but she loves Jamal more.

[CofCinci]

I think they're going to Stephen Hawking him. Which would be a challenging role for Terrence Howard or any actor: playing a man who is slowly losing his body function and needing to rely on others to do things for him as simple as wiping his nose.

With Mr. Howard's well-publicized love of baby wipes, this should be easy for him to portray.

[dirtypop90]

coloradoqt, when the poster you were quoting was mentioning Andre's bio, they are actually talking about Andre's bio on the Fox website. It has nothing to do with Trai Byers. There's profiles on everyone. Here's Andre's which includes the info that was brought up

Thank you for bringing it over. I actually don't know anything about the actor who plays Andre. I was talking about his character only.

[Kendall]

Anika looks biracial to me.

 

And that is where the problem currently lies with this renewed obsession of blacks looking for that racial loophole. The actress that plays Anika very well may be biracial, but for much longer than the immediate assumption that "she's gotta be mixed" would come up, she would just be considered a "redbone" in original black community.

 

But, I realize now that "redbone," "yella," and "high yella" just don't seem to exist anymore, now we have a generation breaking their necks to claim "creole" and 50 variations of "cablasian" all with the help of Dr. Gates and his worshipped research.

 

I know people will swear they knew from the moment they saw her, but nobody thought Halle Berry was biracial until they saw her mother and NOBODY thought Cindy Herron from En Vogue was biracial until she revealed it. Nor, would they think Lenny Kravitz was biracial and all three of them are about 10-15 shades browner than the "obvious" Grace Gealey and there are plenty more.

 

It's not half as obvious as people try to claim. There are some things that may make someone question, but rarely something that is just out and out definitive.

[Milz]

Cindy Herron and Halle Berry looked like many of the Puerto Rican and Dominican people I went to school with or worked with. Grace Gealey looks like she's Puerto Rican and could probably be cast in Latina roles.

[ridethemaverick]

Cindy Herron and Halle Berry looked like many of the Puerto Rican and Dominican people I went to school with or worked with. Grace Gealey looks like she's Puerto Rican and could probably be cast in Latina roles.

Those are all ethnicities, not races, meaning people in those groups can be black, white, or mixed. And I know plenty of black folks with two black parents who look just like them. Bottom line: all of these folks are black or blackish. It ain't that serious.

[politichick]

I don't know about cookie telling Hakeem she loves him as much as she loves Jamal, because I just watched episodes 2 and 3. She was actively working to pull focus from Hakeem for Jamal, Rochelle had to tell her that it was cold blooded and that Hakeem was her son too. I don't doubt that Cookie loves her children, but she loves Jamal more.

She told Hakeem that she does not love Jamal more than she loves him but that she knows Jamal better.

[phoenics]

Seems like Lucious thinks Andre wants to be white, which is why he holds the white girl wife and the going to get an education against him when the other 2 boys not going to college get praised.

Actually I think it's a little deeper than that. I think Lucious thinks that Andre thinks that in order to be "accepted" by white society, you have to do things the way they want you to do them... and Lucious' way - talent and hip hop is apparently not good enough for Andre - only being Ivy League is... Lucious takes it as a rejection of him and everything he's built without Ivy League and he believes deep down that they will never accept him anyway. It's similar to how a common misconception is that black folks can sing, dance and entertain in sports, but they cannot lead from an academic sense. And when black folks "entertain" it's looked upon as "less than" by some in mainstream society because "that's what blacks are supposed to do". Lucious might be angry that Andre seems to believe it - that hip hop is beneath him, yet the "mainstream academic way" is the path he's chosen because he cares more about white approval than his father's deep down.

When you think about it - it's kinda how folks slept on Empire. Hollywood has this idea that a show can only be successful if it stays "mainstream", i.e., majority white (with white leads). Empire has literally blown that to hell. Finally.

Hakeem's dating his mommy issues is someone Lucious may approve of at this point since he doesn't approve of the white wife or Jamal being gay.

I don't think Lucious knows about Camilla yet - he met her before, but didn't know she was with Hakeem... did he find out this week and I missed it?

I'm rather confused by Rhonda though.  She may have hated her husband pimping her out to an old goat, but why didn't she feel equally the same when she asked to be screwed the same way her husband screwed some lawyer bimbo in a previous episode?  She should've saw that as very offensive.  I can't help but wonder what she'd feel if Andre sexed up another man for business purposes?  These two are just.............I don't even know anymore.

I'm not confused by Rhonda - it's obvious that she's not really down for her husband's reindeer games - she just has pretended to be all this time. I'm convinced that that is how she landed him - she pretended to be down for his stuff in order to get him.

Well, what you do to get him is what you have to keep on doing to keep him.

I really hope they bring on a former love interest of Andre's to show this - the former love interest was probably like "Naw son you crazy - I ain't down for this" - while Rhonda was all like, "I'm down!"

Even before the whole old man thing, when Andre brought up the woman who liked blondes that he wanted her to sex up, when Rhonda had her back to him, her face showed the faintest amount of unrest before she turned around and buried it by making out like a sex fiend with her husband.

Rhonda has probably never really - deep down - been okay with Andre's games. She's just done what what she thought she had to do to land her prize.

[phoenics]

The average black person and white person need to start watching Finding Your Roots with Henry Louis Gates, Jr. and Dr. Gates' other shows because he's found that nearly all African Americans are biracial or "multiracial"---vast majority are mixed with European and a very, very, incredibly small minority are mixed with Native American.

This has absolutely nothing to do with how people self-identify or even how society tends to brand them. Consider the one-drop rule and other similar rules.

[phoenics]

My guess is that Obama is identified as the first black president, rather than the first biracial  president, in order to keep things simple for simple minds.

Obama actually SELF-IDENTIFIES as black - but at the same time, if he was just walking down the street and no one knew who he was, he'd likely be labeled as "just black".

Anyhow, to me, Andre and Lucious are using women (Rhonda and Anika) to gain credibility and status. That's why I view Andre's "bringing home that white woman" on the same level with Lucious bringing home that upper middle class, Julliard educated, debutante woman.

I might agree with this except Lucious built the company pretty much without Anika - she's a later addition after he obtained a lot of success already. It's possible that she "legitimized him" in a way, but we haven't been shown that yet.

I thought initially that Daniels and Strong were trying to play out a common stereotype of black men/white women relationships (especially with the "openness" of their relationship and how "free" Rhonda appeared to be), and I haven't ruled that out - but I have appreciated that there are layers there. And honestly I took Lucious' comment about Rhonda on the chin and didn't flinch because I don't think he cared about her race per se, except that he seems to believe that Andre didn't marry her for love, but for power and what he thought she could bring him.

In that way, you could say that Andre was similar to Lucious, due to Anika - but I just don't think that Lucious really cares about being "legit" - I think Anika pressures him toward the "legit" label. That's why Cookie represents him "not selling out" whereas I think Anika actually represents trying to put on a show for the white establishment.

One thing that I don't think has been mentioned is that Lucious' sons are all cracked mirror reflections of Lucious himself. Meaning, they all represent aspects of his personality. What he hates in them or loves in them is what he hates or loves in himself. So, Andre seemingly being "sold out" to the idea of trying to be "accepted" by the white establishment represents Lucious fear that he might go that route himself. Jamal's intense and amazing talent at arranging songs and singing represents Lucious' own talent... and his stubbornness and "go it alone" attitude his his father's too. Hakeem represents his raw talent and swagger - and sometimes his brashness.

I think Cookie is Lucious' true north. When he runs from his true north, his horrible nature comes out.

That or Daniels and Strong are trying to write Lucious as the next J.R. Ewing. IF so, they have a lot of work to do.

[Guest]

Rhonda has probably never really - deep down - been okay with Andre's games. She's just done what what she thought she had to do to land her prize.

 

Rhonda is gorgeous and successful.  I don't see her having to pretend arousal about her husband banging other women (et al) to keep him.  Andre's no grand prize, in my book.  And I feel like if she has been supposed to be reluctant about it before old dude in wheelchair, the directors didn't let the actress in on that.  She looked genuinely turned on to me.  

[Grace19]

Ofcourse cookie would say that she just knew Jamal better, but what I have seen is that she loves Jamal more. Knowing Jamal better dosen't excuse her working against Hakeem to make Jamal a star. This is not a terrible thing, as parents loves the kid closest to them more. It only becomes bad when they make it so obvious that the rest of their children pick up on it.

[Milz]

Those are all ethnicities, not races, meaning people in those groups can be black, white, or mixed. And I know plenty of black folks with two black parents who look just like them. Bottom line: all of these folks are black or blackish. It ain't that serious.

 

That's true: hispanic is an ethnicity. But it goes to prove, that you simply cannot look at a person and say "That one is black" (in the sense of "black" = "African American").

 

Obama actually SELF-IDENTIFIES as black - but at the same time, if he was just walking down the street and no one knew who he was, he'd likely be labeled as "just black".

 

 

And perhaps that is based on the simplistic mentality of people who see others wholly as either black or white. President Obama was raised by his mother and her Malaysian husband, and then by his maternal grandparents. In the 60s and 70s when he was growing up, I could see his parents/grandparents and himself saying it's easier for him to say "I'm Black" rather than to explain that he is biracial. I know biracial Asian people who identified themselves as Asian for that reason: it's easier for people (simple minded people) to comprehend.

 

 

I might agree with this except Lucious built the company pretty much without Anika - she's a later addition after he obtained a lot of success already. It's possible that she "legitimized him" in a way, but we haven't been shown that yet.

    I thought initially that Daniels and Strong were trying to play out a common stereotype of black men/white women relationships (especially with the "openness" of their relationship and how "free" Rhonda appeared to be), and I haven't ruled that out - but I have appreciated that there are layers there. And honestly I took Lucious' comment about Rhonda on the chin and didn't flinch because I don't think he cared about her race per se, except that he seems to believe that Andre didn't marry her for love, but for power and what he thought she could bring him.

 

    In that way, you could say that Andre was similar to Lucious, due to Anika - but I just don't think that Lucious really cares about being "legit" - I think Anika pressures him toward the "legit" label. That's why Cookie represents him "not selling out" whereas I think Anika actually represents trying to put on a show for the white establishment.

    One thing that I don't think has been mentioned is that Lucious' sons are all cracked mirror reflections of Lucious himself. Meaning, they all represent aspects of his personality. What he hates in them or loves in them is what he hates or loves in himself. So, Andre seemingly being "sold out" to the idea of trying to be "accepted" by the white establishment represents Lucious fear that he might go that route himself. Jamal's intense and amazing talent at arranging songs and singing represents Lucious' own talent... and his stubbornness and "go it alone" attitude his his father's too. Hakeem represents his raw talent and swagger - and sometimes his brashness.

    I think Cookie is Lucious' true north. When he runs from his true north, his horrible nature comes out.

    That or Daniels and Strong are trying to write Lucious as the next J.R. Ewing. IF so, they have a lot of work to do.

 

I think Lucious cares about being "legitimate". In the first or second episode, he told Cookie that she can't act like a "hood rat" when conducting business. 

[phoenics]

Rhonda is gorgeous and successful.  I don't see her having to pretend arousal about her husband banging other women (et al) to keep him.  Andre's no grand prize, in my book.  And I feel like if she has been supposed to be reluctant about it before old dude in wheelchair, the directors didn't let the actress in on that.  She looked genuinely turned on to me.

If you look at Rhonda's background on the website, I think she probably did view Andre as a come up and a prize. She could work her @ss off and still not be where she is today - because even Andre is partly where he is due to his family name.

My main point about Andre is that there likely would have been a lot of women who would have been down for him - but perhaps not everyone would put up with what Rhonda has put up with. That was my point.

I still think that the show might "go there" in drawing out that contrast - especially given Rhonda's attitude about their reindeer games. She clearly showed apprehension before when she had on the green mask. Even if she did get all hot and heavy with Andre before going in to seduce the other dude - I think that's her method of coping. She gets hot and heavy with Andre to pump herself up to go in and do the deed.

I don't think she's really down for it at all. Or maybe she's down for some of it, but wants to draw a line where she may not have drawn it before.

As I said - what you do to get him is what you have to keep doing to keep him.

[phoenics]

And perhaps that is based on the simplistic mentality of people who see others wholly as either black or white. President Obama was raised by his mother and her Malaysian husband, and then by his maternal grandparents. In the 60s and 70s when he was growing up, I could see his parents/grandparents and himself saying it's easier for him to say "I'm Black" rather than to explain that he is biracial. I know biracial Asian people who identified themselves as Asian for that reason: it's easier for people (simple minded people) to comprehend.

I can't tell - who are you referring to as simple minded? The people in this thread who are expressing reality of how many people of color (of all mixes) are typically seen as "black" by mainstream society? Or are you referring to mainstream society as simple-minded? It's hard to tell.

And I'm not speaking about what his parents' mindset might have been about his race - I'm speaking about what Barack Obama has said himself. He identifies as black. That's important and means something, whether you agree with his decision or not. Now, if you are arguing that it's not fair that he couldn't self-identify as biracial due to the times (I think you're assuming that he wanted to identify as biracial?), that's something else. But from what I have heard, Barack didn't grow up necessarily self-identifying as black - but he does now.

But my main point - and the point of a few others that I'm not sure you're getting is that Barack Obama looks the same as other blacks who aren't biracial. I mean - most have some mixing that happened somewhere in their family tree, but that doesn't mean that they still can't look an awful lot like Obama who is biracial. For example, my great-great Grandmother was full Cherokee. Maybe that's why I have the skin tone I have - maybe not. But I'm not biracial like Obama is, but we have the same skin tone and skin shade.

Even if I saw Obama walking down the street, I wouldn't assume he is biracial - mostly because we're the same skin tone and I'm not biracial. So in this case I can see how others might not assume that he or others with similar skin tones would be biracial even if they are.

I think Lucious cares about being "legitimate". In the first or second episode, he told Cookie that she can't act like a "hood rat" when conducting business.

I think he does care - but I also think he hates that he cares. I think he views it as selling out in some way - remember the interview where they asked about violence in the music? Cookie really did have to set him straight on that - Anika was about to have him towing a very PC line that glossed over and ignored where a lot of this music came from originally. The conversation about music and violence is a close parallel to race and violence - and often blacks are put in the position to "defend" their race or "denounce" it and Lucious was put into that position - and pushed by Anika to go the "denounce" route for good PR, while Cookie pushed for him to be honest and real. Acknowledge the bad, but also teach about why the bad comes about and about the honest expression the music is supposed to be.

[Guest]

As I said - what you do to get him is what you have to keep doing to keep him.

 

Eh, I'm not so into the concept of it being a woman's duty to remain who she was in courtship to avoid being dumped.  

 

I feel like if it's Lucious' money she's after she'd probably be best off cashing out after the IPO anyway, not staying around pretending to love Andre's bipolar kinky ass, if she doesn't.  

[phoenics]

Eh, I'm not so into the concept of it being a woman's duty to remain who she was in courtship to avoid being dumped.

I get what you're saying - but when you open up yourself to doing certain things just to get a man, when you stop doing those things, you risk losing that man to the next chick who will. That's just life - it happens with men too. If you shower your woman with money and use that to "get her" over some other dude who doesn't have much money and then you end up broke - well, she might leave too.

That's all I was getting at. My main point isn't that Rhonda can't try to renegotiate their reindeer games - it's that if she does, Andre could potentially walk if her being down for the reindeer games and pimping herself for him is what he married her for (along with her being brilliant). As another poster said, when Cookie asked why he married her, Andre's response wasn't that he loved her, but that she was brilliant. Men like Andre are calculated human beings - and Rhonda is a calculated human being as well - you can't tell me that when she agreed to the reindeer games she wasn't calculating that it would help her win Andre. 

I feel like if it's Lucious' money she's after she'd probably be best off cashing out after the IPO anyway, not staying around pretending to love Andre's bipolar kinky ass, if she doesn't.

I think you misunderstand me - I'm not saying she doesn't love Andre. I'm simply saying that she pulled out all the stops (speculating) to land Andre and all that comes with Andre. I don't see her as a gold digger - just a woman who saw what she wanted (Andre) and did what she thought was necessary to lock him down.

[Kendall]

And perhaps that is based on the simplistic mentality of people who see others wholly as either black or white. President Obama was raised by his mother and her Malaysian husband, and then by his maternal grandparents. In the 60s and 70s when he was growing up, I could see his parents/grandparents and himself saying it's easier for him to say "I'm Black" rather than to explain that he is biracial. I know biracial Asian people who identified themselves as Asian for that reason: it's easier for people (simple minded people) to comprehend.

 

 

Would this simplistic mentality be the science that was established long before the implications of social and racial class that states you can only be one of three things: Negroid, Caucasoid or Mongoloid?

 

That's it.

 

Latinos may want to side step the issue, but they are either Negroid, Caucasoid or a combination of the two, sometimes, they may have some Mongoloid in the mix, but the former is what they usually are.

 

What I think you're failing to realize is that it doesn't have to be "easier" to self-identify as black or white or Asian, because neither Barack Obama nor your friend has to explain anything to anyone. That's just what they identify as and shouldn't have to explain why they'd do something as "foolish" as calling themselves "black" when they can tell the world that they have white blood!!!

 

The explanations make things easier for people that need to know the ethnic and racial background of the people they encounter and I believe that is because the questioner wants that information so they can then decide how they will really treat the person they are interacting with.

 

That's what Lucious was hinting at with Andre. If people were serious about only caring about the "content of someone's character," then they wouldn't need to know what the not present mama, daddy or grandparents look like, they'd just take that pale white to cafe au lait to brown sugar to chocolate person standing before them at their worth and keep it moving.

 

No explanations requested. No explanations given.

 

But, as it has been explained over and over and in many different ways, that's not how it works.

[Milz]

I can't tell - who are you referring to as simple minded? The people in this thread who are expressing reality of how many people of color (of all mixes) are typically seen as "black" by mainstream society? Or are you referring to mainstream society as simple-minded? It's hard to tell.

 

Mainstream society---because the people here appear to understand that skin color isn't a reliable indicator of a person's racial/ethnic composition.

[Milz]

Would this simplistic mentality be the science that was established long before the implications of social and racial class that states you can only be one of three things: Negroid, Caucasoid or Mongoloid?

 

Science doesn't support that skin color as the determination of race because science is DNA based. What supports is "three races" idea is the government because it's easier for the US Census bureau to pigeonhole people into one race or ethnicity.

[jhlipton]

I'm hoping that Rhonda is into the sex games, but that Andre pushed her too far this time.  The trope of the man wanting an open relationship and thwe woman pretending to like it to keep him is just too worn out for me -- I think it makes Rhonda a stronger character if she can say "this far is fun; that far is not" and set her own limits.

[darkestboy]

I loved that episode. Easily the best one the show has done yet.

Jamal came out in such a glorious way. It was truly epic to watch, especially for all of the reactions as well. Lucious needs to realise that the world is fine with his middle son being gay.

I'm actually glad that despite them having sex in the studio that things won't go any further with Lucious and Cookie for the time being. Cookie sussed him out during the last scene and Anika going to meet his rival is a good twist too.

Andre and Rhonda have such a strange marriage but I really felt bad for both of them in this episode. I actually think Andre is heading for a massive breakdown fairly soon now.

Nice scenes with Jamal and Lola as well as Jamal and Ryan. Ryan's got a bit more fire in him than Michael does, doesn't he?

Still on the fence with Hakeem/Camilla but I loved the former's scenes with both Cookie and Jamal this week.

Loved the Cookie flashbacks in this episode as well as every version of You're so Beautiful as well, 10/10

[wanderingstar]

This is one of my favorite episodes of S1. And the scene where Hakeem comes to give Jamal his support after the coming out was one of the best things about the ep.